Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 1 1997     Volume 1996 : Number 803



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re:why the Aztecs lost
Re: Anti-grav or Contragrav ?
Re: Assumptions on the Vargr invasion of Corridor
Re: 21st Century History
Re: gone
Re: Tuglikki Sector Data
Re: gone
Re: Traveller Library 
Starship deckplans question?
Links
Re: Uncle Cleon, the taxman...
Re: gone
T4 Errata List - DONE!
T4 Errata Mail Bounce
Traveller on IRC
Re: Heat Tolerance in Starships
Re: Traveller on IRC
A suggestion to IG for David Smart's Errata List
Re: Tech and Starports
Re: Vargr tactics
Re: Interstellar taxes (long)
Warfare and economics
Starship Controls
Re: A suggestion to IG for David Smart's Errata List

<hr><hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 03:43:51 -0800
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: re:why the Aztecs lost

The Aztecs lost because they weren`t British.Simple really.

<hr>

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 22:06:59 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-grav or Contragrav ?

Antti Lahtinen wrote:
>         I thought that contragrav lifters were used only in TNE,
>         and T4 uses anti-grav thrusters.
> 
>         Contragrav lifter (CG) was TNE device that countered
>         external gravitic attraction within affected volume,
>         and thus allowed objects to "float" within gravity
>         fields. <snip>
> 
>         Anti-grav thruster (AG) was MegaTraveller device that
>         generated direct thrust using gravitic repulsion. While
>         AG thruster worked well within strong gravity fields,
>         it was virtually useless in deep space as there was no
>         gravity fields to push against.
> 
>         So, which system should be used in T4 ?

Based on some previous posts by Wildstar, T4 uses AG thrusters. Jumping
a thruster-based ship to a deep space location results in virtually
total loss of maneuver capability (less than 1G regardless of thruster
rating in an in-system environment).  Makes HEPlAR much more attractive
despite the fuel requirements (IMO). Previous posts have suggested
ship designs which contain both types, making for rather expensive
warships.

<hr>

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 23:01:08 -0500
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Assumptions on the Vargr invasion of Corridor

I forgot to also ask where are we getting data for the Vargr sectors? 
Specificlly the Tuglikk, Provance, and Windhorn sectors.  I personally am not
familiar with any sources for this information.

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

<hr>

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 23:31:06 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: 21st Century History

Steven Bonneville writes: 

>I have no proof, but I think this was a hedge against human extinction on
>the Terrans' part, in case of some disaster near Terra.  I suspect that
>most Terran STL missions went to Alpha Centauri, due to the fact that they
>found habitable worlds there immediately.  We know that none reached the
>habitable worlds at Tau Ceti or Epsilon Eridani before 2099, or they would
>have run into the Vilani in those systems.  The "2000 year" figure is 
>directly from TCS; this might be silly rounding, or might be the ESA fibbing
>a bit to hide the final destination of the Terran insurance policy, just
>in case.  

   Or maybe, <Harold breaks out the latest and greatest in Traveller
conspiracy theories> the Terrans already knew that there was a vast
alien empire out there and the ESA therefore launched the mission as a
hedge against human extinction in case this alien empire decided to
attack Earth.

   Let's face it, given the how large and how close to Terra the Vilani
Imperium was, it is very likely that some scientist using the 21st
century version of radio telescopes would pick up on a stray Vilani
transmission.  The scientist would be able to pick out a few words here
and there, and the folks with the Cray computers would eventually figure
out what they mean.  The President/Prime Minister (pick your country) is
informed.  Rather than release the information to the general public,
the leaders of the other major world powers are informed, and plans are
formulated to get a few sublight ships out of the Solar System and as
far away as possible so that humanity has "an insurance policy."

   Of course the discovery of jump drive gives Humanity a fighting
chance, but by that time the sublight ships are long gone, with no
possibility of recall.  Eventually they are forgotten about--secret
projects that become footnotes in history.  The only reason that the ESA
mission's story becomes common knowledge (with some details lost) is
because an Imperial crusier stumbled upon the Islands Cluster many
centuries later.  That also means that there are still other generation
ships to be found, and maybe other human civilizations out there waiting
to be discovered among the stars....<cue Battlestar Galactica theme>

Regards,

Harold

<hr>

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 23:50:11 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: gone

Mused writes:

>I was gone from Dec 27 to Dec 30, what did I miss?

   The 27th started out with an announcement that Paramount Pictures had
purchased Sweetpea Entertainment, thus Paramount now owns IG and the
rights to produce Traveller material.  Everyone expressed shock and
general concern.

   In a post on the 28th, a spokesperson for Paramount informed us that
the Milieu 0 setting and most of the T4 game mechanics would be dumped
in favor of a setting and rules that would allow Traveller to be
converted into a Star Trek-based role-playing game.  A whole new staff
of writers and illustrators are being brought on board to work on the
project, which we were informed would be completed in time for GenCon.  

   On the 29th, a Paramount lawyer posted to the mailing list informing
everyone that they must cease immediately using Traveller or Traveller
related materials on their personal Web sites.  Individuals who posted
notes of protest were threaten with legal action.

   Yesterday, we decided to make this a Star Wars RPG discussion area in
protest of Paramount's actions regarding Traveller.  Today (the 31st) is
the last day you can post Traveller material, after which the Star Wars
discussion will begin.  I offered up as a starting topic the
disadvantages of playing a low level Jedi, and how to survive your
character's basic lack of necessary skills until such time that you can
start strangling people with your thoughts and don't have to bother with
messy blasters.

Regards,

Harold

<hr>

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 22:50:50 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Tuglikki Sector Data

Dedly@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I'm looking for Sector Data for Tuglikki during the MT era. Is it availible
> online anywhere? (I've already checked the Missouri Archive) Any info would
> be greatly appreciated.

Try http://eeyore.lv-hrc.nevada.edu/~indy/sectors/sectors.html

There are a number of sectors available in zip files at the above
location.

<hr>

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 22:37:54 -0800
From: The Orcslayer <rguy@cdsnet.net>
Subject: Re: gone

Harold D. Hale wrote:
> 
> Mused writes:
> 
> >I was gone from Dec 27 to Dec 30, what did I miss?
> 
>    The 27th started out with an announcement that Paramount Pictures had
> purchased Sweetpea Entertainment, thus Paramount now owns IG and the
> rights to produce Traveller material.  Everyone expressed shock and
> general concern.
> 
>    In a post on the 28th, a spokesperson for Paramount informed us that
> the Milieu 0 setting and most of the T4 game mechanics would be dumped
> in favor of a setting and rules that would allow Traveller to be
> converted into a Star Trek-based role-playing game.  A whole new staff
> of writers and illustrators are being brought on board to work on the
> project, which we were informed would be completed in time for GenCon.
> 
>    On the 29th, a Paramount lawyer posted to the mailing list informing
> everyone that they must cease immediately using Traveller or Traveller
> related materials on their personal Web sites.  Individuals who posted
> notes of protest were threaten with legal action.
> I'm new to this list and gosh, I sure hope the above is a joke! It is a 
joke isn't it Harold? Uh.. Harold?

********************************************************
		       "RUNAWAY!"
********************************************************
Joe Hamrick                              rguy@cdsnet.net
Homepage       http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/8701

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 18:30:59 +1100 (EST)
From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller Library 

At 01:48 AM 31/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Thank You for the incredible resource....

Thank you for the response!

>In working my way through the library I have noticed some bad links....

The earlier stuff doesn't link to the later stuff. For example, an "A"
reference won't have any links to anything other than "A", whereas something
in "P" will be linked to everything from "A" to "P" but nothing from "Q" to "Z".

This is a known problem... it arises from putting things up in alphabetical
order, with no knowledge of what I was going to call the later files. ;-)  I
will do a "second pass" through the Library Data, once I have reached "Z"
(it's up to the letter "P", if you're interested).
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 02:18:39 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Starship deckplans question?

Recently Joe Heck posted the URL of two starship deckplans, a 150 tons
scout and a 300 ton merchant.  On the web page were two deckplan Gifs and
the USP and stats on the merchant, I'm wondering if either the stats for
the scout were visible to those with a better web-browser than mine, or if
anyone knows them. 

Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com 

<hr>

Date: 01 Jan 97 08:52:41 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Links

>> >         I was just verifying a couple of the links on my website, and found
some  > that don't work--apparently some Traveller pages went off the air,
moved,  > or I just had the wrong URL. Can anybody give me hand? All of the
following  > apparently don't work.  >   >
http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller/  >
http://www.datasync.com/~tiger/trav/bard.htm  >
http://eeyore.lv-hrc.nevada.edu/~indy/traveller.html   <<

The second one is Kevin Knight's Traveller Chronicle site, which appears to have
been down for a while - it doesn't respond to my bookmark either. If you're
listening, Kev, have you moved? <g>

[<hr>oOo-----------------------------] | Hugh Foster
100326,446       | |   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster
| | We're all in this together - by ourselves.                   |
[<hr>oOo-----------------------------]

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:50:47 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Uncle Cleon, the taxman...

>Seriously, though, I think a higher  tax percentage would be reasonable,
>plus that number also would include the taxes paid by corporations, plus
>other various and sundry taxes/fees/levies. Remember that the "per head"
>number is just an approximation, and isn't a quote from Uncle Cleon's
>Department of Revenue. Also, if the military budget goes up percentagewise,
>they've got more money to play with. A more optimistic version of the SWAG
>numbers above might be done with a 30%tax rate, an assumption that
>individual income taxes are only 2/3 of the government income, and that the
>military gets 15% of the budget. That would give 2025 Cr per head,
>significantly higher than the numbers listed in TCS.
>
>Michael

Remember that worlds spend most of their cash themselves, only a small part
of all tax levied goes to the Imperium and only a part of that to the
military.

Look at the UN and see how much the member countries spend on UNs military
for an analogy that's propably not missing the mark by more than the
default assumption (on this list) that the Imperium works exactly like the
US with the worlds like individual states.


/Backman

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 09:18:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: gone

On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, Harold D. Hale wrote:

>    The 27th started out with an announcement that Paramount Pictures had
> purchased Sweetpea Entertainment, thus Paramount now owns IG and the
> rights to produce Traveller material.  Everyone expressed shock and
> general concern.

Nice summary, but you forgot to mention the *FREE PROSTHETIC POINTY EARS* 
each member of the TML (soon to be STML) will be receiving, if they 
choose to stay.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

<hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 09:50:33 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: T4 Errata List - DONE!

Finally! The consolidated errata listing which resulted from my little
contest back in November has been completed. Hard copies will be winging
their way to IG and Marc Miller tomorrow morning via Priority Mail and,
therefore, should arrive by Jan. 5th (the same day that IG staff
return). 
Since you all have been so patient, I've decided not to wait until IG
gets it and have already sent electronic copies (some in RTF format,
some TXT) to those people who requested copies for their Web sites.
Start looking for them sometime in mid-January.

One caveat, though. The listing does *not* include fixes for most of
the items. The purpose of this doc was to help IG identify errata, not
correct them. I did include all fixes by Wildstar and those which Joe
Walsh sent me. I've also included "suggested" fixes (even though I said
I wouldn't) which those of you who responded sent me. Hey, I figured IG
could ignore them if they didn't like them.

Thank you all who took part in the contest. The patches for the winners
are also going out tomorrow morning by Priority Mail (or Global Priority
for those of you outside the U.S).

Hope you all had a great Christmas/Hanukah.

<hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 09:57:28 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: T4 Errata Mail Bounce

Anybody know what happened to Peter Miller? I sent him a copy of the
T4 errata list for his web page and received the following.

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to orka.linkeasy.net.:
>>> RCPT To:<PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
<<< 550 <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>... User unknown
550 <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>... User unknown

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 09:05:17 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller on IRC

Greetings!

We have good news this week!  #traveller has been registered with 
Undernet Channel Services.  We now have the services of a nice little 
bot named X.  She keeps the channel open for us and maintains the 
permanent ops and ban lists.  I am listed as channel manager, so if 
you have any questions, or need any assistance, please let me know.

Last Thursday had a pretty low showing, but then I expected that.  We 
just chatted in general, with no specific topic.

This Thursday, we will be on at the usual time and place.

5:00pm  PST
6:00pm  MST
7:00pm  CST
8:00pm  EST

We'll be on undernet, stlouis.mo.us.undernet.org, ports 6660-6669.  

This week we will talk about Aliens and Central Supply catalog.  Joe 
Walsh will give us a brief review of each, then he and I willl field 
questions as best we can.

Again, if you need any help connecting to IRC  or undernet, please 
contact me at suzd@goodnet.com

Suz
suzd@goodnet.com

<hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 10:17:04 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Heat Tolerance in Starships

James Dempsey wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
>   In designing an adventure based close to a star, I came up with a question:
> 
>   At what temperature will a 'normal' starship's environmental controls
> break down? At what temperature will the hull start to react to the heat?
> 
>   I haven't been able to find any hints in SOM, which I thought was the best
> bet. Any suggestions?

For what it's worth, classic Traveller Adventure 12 - Secret of the
Ancients states the following in regards to operating a ship within the
atmosphere of Komesh, a gas giant in the Boughene/Spinward Marches
system.

"  Commercial vessels (traders, merchants, liners) can withstand up to
1,000 degrees K and up to 1,000 atmospheres.
   Military vessels can handle temperatures to 1,500 degrees K and
pressures to 2,000 atmospheres. System defense boats are specifically
constructed to handle temperatures to 2,500 degrees K and pressures to
3,000 atmospheres...
   ...Once a ship reaches its limits, throw 10+ every quarter hour for
it to fail under the heat or pressure, after which its drives stop and
it falls."

Obviously, more accurate limits should be based on hull material type
and armor value. After all, 5 inches of steel would fail before an
equivalent thickness of bonded superdense (IMO). Any materials science
gurus lurking about?

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 11:40:13 -0600
From: "J.D. Burdick" <twolf@tfs.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller on IRC

At 09:05 AM 1/1/97 +0000, SuzD wrote:
>Greetings!
>
>We have good news this week!  #traveller has been registered with 
>Undernet Channel Services.

Thank you for all the work you did to do this for us.  It is good to know
that there are individuals out there working hard to make Traveller succeed.

Thanks.

JD
Twolf

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 12:00:23 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: A suggestion to IG for David Smart's Errata List

I want to publicly thank David Smart for the time and effort that he 
put in to the errata list.  This man is a true fan, and David, I am 
sure that there are many out there that feel the same as I do.

I'd like to go a step further by making a suggestion to IG.  

From the look of his list, David has put many man hours into creating this 
list--something that is not only valuable to fans like myself but to 
IG as a company.  This is a complete and thorough job, and I'm sure 
David's work saved IG a lot of time on improving their product--which 
we all know sorely needs to be done.

My suggestion to IG is this.  IG, why don't you reward the 
contributors to this list with a free copy of the corrected version 
of the T4 rules when it is printed?  You may consider going a step 
further with David, since he spearheaded the project, by 
rewarding him with, say, a free subscription to the JTAS.

I'm betting that you guys and gals at IG would be happy to do this.

Sincerely,

Kenneth.

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 97 18:15 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Tech and Starports

In-Reply-To: <19961231021818.AAA15733@LOCALNAME>

<< One variation that I have been considering, given that the Starport 
Down is also Imperial territory, perhaps that chunk of land certain 
nobles are granted in association with their titles is the very land on 
which the downport is built. Part of the nobles income therefore is 
derived from the operations of the port.

Of course, that could also mean that the noble is RESPONSIBLE to the 
Emperor for the proper running of the port and conformance with the 
Imperial Policies and Procedures on Starport Operation. >>

Hmm. Yes, that's an interesting idea.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 13:27:18 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr tactics

>>If you're a smart Vargr, you don't even go near the high population
>>worlds for a while. 

>Ever.

If you and your fellows are too successful at raiding, people either start
sending armed escorts with everything, or they stop shipping at all. (some
one, some the other). Either way, volume of shipping goes down and risk
goes up, and your profits go down. Eventually, you HAVE to start raiding
worlds if you're going to survive. High population worlds are riskier,
sure, but they're also much fatter...

>>Instead, you cripple the weakest X-boat links you can find.

>Why? You're a Vargr Corsair. What kind of profit do you derive from 
>attacking an X-boat or an X-boat tender?

You don't bother with the X-boats or tenders themselves: it's the way
stations where they refuel and transfer information. If you control them,
you can use them. Furthermore, you isolate the high population worlds so
they can't coordinate their efforts against you. Even if you can't stop
communications entirely, you hinder them and slow them down. 

>>If for some reason it's necessary to reduce a planet's defenses to the
>>point where they *have* to deal with you, you do it in wolf-pack
>>fashion: send enough units to stretch out the defenses. 

> And where do you get these units? Each of them is commanded by a
> captain and a crew who is in it for the profits. If it's an ally, how
> do you persuade  him to go first and if it's a follower, are you sure
> you want to cripple your forces so that another Corsair band can move
> in and take over once you've exhausted yourself reducing the defenses?

Vargr aren't *just* motivated by profits. If you're a corsair hurting for
easy profit, others are going to have the same notion of going after the
world you are.
Pack tactics are similar, whether wolves hunt moose, dogs bait bears, or
humans hunt mammoth. The target can't react to all threats at once: so
while one is running from the weapons, another is trying to hamstring it,
or at least wound it. While the target is turning on him, the first gets
away and a third sees a chance to attack... Ideally, nobody at all gets
hurt. Less ideally, if you can't face a little risk for your fellows in the
fleet, you don't join... and nobody ever follows a cowardly Vargr.

Just as a Vargr would not dream of attacking a high population world until
it was isolated, so he would never dare try to conquer it in one blow.
Instead, he would gather a fleet for the specific purpose of crippling its
ability to build ships. A critical portion of that is going to be based in
the extended system, where it is the most exposed of all the planet's
industry anyway. A thousand bee stings can be just as fatal as one crushing
blow.
  

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 13:27:24 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Interstellar taxes (long)

Hans Rancke replied
> 
>>Taxes can't be sent from one planet to another unless you
>>have lots of cargo ships to carry valuable stuff between them. Bits in
>>a computer or  pieces of paper isn't wealth unless you can buy
>>something with it. If you can't eat, burn, or fondle it, it isn't
>>wealth.

OTOH, if you *can* buy things with these bits in a computer or pieces of
paper, then are they worth something? Or suppose that you can buy things
with them at one place, but not another?

>What do you think those credits ARE? Promisory notes. IOUs. They're not
>wealth unless you can use it to buy something real.

As long as you accept and give them as if you expect them to be honored and
intend to honor them, then they have just as real an effect as if you
traded diamonds or gold coins. If the imperial banker on Mikesh says that
the Admiral's accounts are empty, and refuses to honor requests for payment
from it, people are going to quit giving the Admiral things like ships,
parts, and repair time until they get something more tangible than empty
promises from him.

>>>In the meantime Mikesh has umpteen million credits worth of sceduled 
>>>maintenance that is not going to be needed after all because the ships
>>>aren't there any more. 

>>And why would that <censored> Lucan strip the Corridor of naval fleets
>>but leave their maintenance budget alone?  

> I'm not talking about a budget. I'm talking about mines producing ore,
> factories producing subsystems, and ship construction workers assembling
> ships. All the stuff that Lucan CAN'T move away fom Mikesh.

No, he can't move that stuff, but most people don't give their labor away
and get nothing for it... not for very long. Who's paying them, and with
what? Lucan isn't giving them imperial credits anymore. Who is, and where
are they claiming to get whatever they are paying with?

> Money is not a magic substance that turns into anything useful at the
> wave of a hand. The only way to take anything out of a planetary
> economy is to load something valuable onto a cargo ship and jump away.
> (Or to build a ship and jump away with it ;-).

Even if Imperial credits do not have physical existence (*especially* if
they do not), there must be social conventions which account for them as if
they did. If these conventions exist, then you can indeed take credits out
of or put them into a planetary economy with real effects (deflation,
inflation). If they do not, then you must do exactly that: put something
valuable on a ship and jump away with it. 

>OK, so on Day 001-1117 the Mikesh Government sends an electronic message
>by courier to Lucan with the local taxes. How does that make them any
>poorer and Lucan any richer? The next year Mikesh sends Lucan a note of
>defiance instead. How does that make them any richer and Lucan any
>poorer?

If I send a check to the IRS, how does that make me poorer and Uncle Sam
richer? If I send only a blank form, how does that make me richer and Uncle
Sam poorer?
I still have the same sick car, same computer, same library, wife,
children, and officeful of stuff I want but nobody else in their right mind
would... but could make a *big* difference in how the IRS treats me.
Checkbook money may have no intrinsic worth apart from what I can get for
it or get it for, but so long as I can trade it for food at the grocery
store, it's of more practical use than my wife's diamond ring.

 

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 13:27:29 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: Warfare and economics

An assumption that Hans seems to be making in his analysis of the potenial
for the Vargr invasion of corridor is that his high population worlds can
produce ships at the same rate that they could in an intact
imperium.

This is highly questionable, for several reasons. One is the immediate
economic impact of the withdrawal of the fleet, maintenance and
construction budgets from Corridor. Sure, the world can adjust, but not
overnight. The various worlds are still paying taxes for a time, but
getting nothing for them (withdrawal from the imperium is not to be done
hastily).

The Vargr may not run completely unchecked, but the reserve fleets will
take greater losses in action against them than the normal fleet would,
putting a greater burden on the worlds involved just to make them up, let
alone rebuild the active fleet from scratch.

If the Vargr are successful at all at raiding shipping, it will have an
enormous disruptive influence. Ship losses, higher insurance rates, and the
need to provide armed escort are all bad for the bottom line: many ordinary
carriers will drop out of business entirely, and the survivors will charge
inflated rates. Those business that depend on interstellar commerce,
especially the higher tech industries, will similarly suffer.
LIkewise, if the Vargr disrupt communications, all interplanetary
organizations will suffer.

The Corridor worlds won't sacrifice their ties to the imperium and begin
the painful shift to a wartime economy at the first sign of trouble, but if
they even so much as wait for Lucan's empty assurances that all will be
well, it will be too late for many of them.

Corridor is not prepared for war. The first real trouble comes with the
departure of the Corridor fleet, which strips at least half their defense.
People have a tendency to build to meet for the threat they face now, not
the much worse one they will face in six months when the first ships come
out of the yards. It takes time to retool, in any case.
Sounds a lot like too little, too late to me.

The disruption of the interstellar economy will be taking at the same time
the worlds are shifting to a wartime economy, which is a recipe for chaos
and confusion if I ever heard one.  Furthermore, the assumption that the
high population worlds alone could rebuild the equivalent of the entire
active fleet in a matter of months strikes me as equivalent to claiming
that a metropolis could restaff, resupply, and support the local military
base at the same time the enemy is trying to besiege it.
It's a little bit late to *start* building tanks when your enemies are
already hijacking freight trucks.
  

<hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 13:31:36 -0500
From: Chip Wright <ruwright@InfoAve.Net>
Subject: Starship Controls

Regarding the QSDS, does anyone understand why anyone would buy any
controls other than the TL9 variety, considering the cost of the more
advanced systems, and the fact that there is apparently no requirement or
advantage to having the higher TL controls.  Shouldn't the more expensive
models be required for control on larger ships, rather than rated by TL? 
Am I missing something here?

Regarding the SSDS, as printed in T4's "Starships", the TL12 Minimal
Electronics Package costs 13.11 MCr (ouch!), while the much more effective
TL12 Standard Civilian Electronics Package costs "only" 12.05 MCr (ouch
again!).  I'm trying to design an inexpensive ship and it can't be done...
not even the Scout/Courier listed in the book can be built using SSDS for
21.75 MCr.  At least with QSDS, I can outfit my ship with this stuff for
only 9.0 MCr (TL9 Civilian Controls - 2.0 MCr; TL12 Basic Sensors - 6.8
MCr; TL12 Basic Commo - 0.2 MC2; Note: And of course on my TL12 ship I'm
gonna install the TL9 Controls and save 7.2 MCr, since the TL12 controls
don't do anything better anyway; see Gripe #1 above).

I apologize if this has already been covered in a previous thread, I've
been off the list for a while.  T4 initially turned me off, but after
giving it a second look, I think it's a pretty neat game system (once you
find it buried under all the typos), and Milleiu 0 looks to be an awsome
arena for adventuring, what with 1700 year old ruins out there waiting to
be explored.... Just wish I could get some TL12 starship controls at a
decent price :-)

<hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 12:51:16 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: A suggestion to IG for David Smart's Errata List

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> I want to publicly thank David Smart for the time and effort that he
> put in to the errata list.  This man is a true fan, and David, I am
> sure that there are many out there that feel the same as I do.

Blush! (with head humbly bowed)
 
> I'd like to go a step further by making a suggestion to IG.
> 
> >From the look of his list, David has put many man hours into creating this
> list--something that is not only valuable to fans like myself but to
> IG as a company.  This is a complete and thorough job, and I'm sure
> David's work saved IG a lot of time on improving their product--which
> we all know sorely needs to be done.

Actually, we all did. David Blustein alone sent in 133(?) entries.
 
> My suggestion to IG is this.  IG, why don't you reward the
> contributors to this list with a free copy of the corrected version
> of the T4 rules when it is printed?  You may consider going a step
> further with David, since he spearheaded the project, by
> rewarding him with, say, a free subscription to the JTAS.

Well, let's wait and see if IG actually finds the listing useful.
After all, they may pull it out, look it over, and say "Yeah, so? We
already have these." Ok, ok, it's a reach but it could happen. Anyway,
thanks for the extremely kind words, Kenneth. Heck, I'd be honored
with just a passing mention in the next printing or, better yet, have
IG find the Citizens and JTAS subscriptions I paid for back when it was
first announced on their Web page (and, BTW, the decision to not bring
it
to the attention of the new "powers that be" at IG for the last two
months
was mine).

<hr>

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #803
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 1 1997     Volume 1996 : Number 804



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: IG Pricing
Re: T4 Errata Mail Bounce
Re: gone
Re: Assumptions about Vargr invasions
Re: Vargr tactics (longish)
Re: Interstellar economics (long)
Re: Warfare and economics (long)
Re: Assumptions about the Vargr invasion of Corridor
Uncle Cleon, the taxman...and the Imperial Fleet
Re: Vargr tactics
Re: Vargr invades Corridor!
Re: Why the Aztecs lost

<hr><hr>----------

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 12:09:01 +0100 (MET)
From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing

On Mon, 30 Dec 1996, athol-brose wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Dec 1996, Peter J. Miller wrote:
> > At 04:18 29/12/96 -0700, you wrote:
> > >$22.95 a book!
> > >Maybe for a full set of rules for a game.
> > Hmmm...I'd like to know what game?  AD&D is about $50-$60, WW is about $30
> > at least, Star Wars is $35, T4 is $30, Paranoia is $25, Call of Cthulthu is
> > $30.  Except for rulebooks in the 50-100 page realm, I can't think of a
> > $22.95 rulebook nowadays that runs a respective amount of pages (ie. 150-250)
> Over the Edge.
> Greg Porter's new Epiphany game is $15. Starships was $23.

My copy of Epiphany says '$9.95'.  You get Castle Falkenstein (softcover)
for about $25 (one-half full-color and glossy paper, one-half very nice
parchment feel), you get feng Shui for about $30 (but it's more than 200
pages and it's completely four-color compared to the low-quality Starship
production value), you can buy Deadlands for $25 (224 pages with great
art, very good editing and lots of contents), you can get Blood Dawn for
$24.95 (also 238 pages, so-so art but a *lot* of contents).  Except for
Castle Falkenstein all these products come from companies which are about
the size of IG or smaller and obviously *they* are able to produce
products which are worth the money.  IG yet has to do this.

Even though IG products right now can be compared to some products of
other companies as far as the price is concerned the production values are
*much* lower.  Hell, I could have done the layout with Winword, which I
can't say for most other professional publications these days (especially
since I'm just a hobby layouter).

There is a lot of competition out there and most of the other companies
provide a lot more useful stuff in the $20-$25 range.  Maybe someone
should get Courtney into a roleplaying sessiona and addict him to
roleplaying games :-)  Then we probably can hope for better quality much
sooner ;-)

Thomas.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 12:22:58 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: T4 Errata Mail Bounce

At 09:57 01/01/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Anybody know what happened to Peter Miller? I sent him a copy of the
>T4 errata list for his web page and received the following.

I know what happened to me! :)  My address has changed to
pmiller@irevolution.com  Sorry for the confusion, I thought I had alerted
the list.

/\___________________________Peter John Miller____________________________/\
||           "Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night..."          ||
||     Traveller, IG materials and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ!    ||
||            On Peter's World - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/           ||
\/<hr><hr>------------\/
   Great graphics, and the LOWEST prices on the net - www.irevolution.com

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 12:22:55 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: gone

At 09:18 01/01/97 -0600, you wrote:
>On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, Harold D. Hale wrote:
>
>>    The 27th started out with an announcement that Paramount Pictures had
>> purchased Sweetpea Entertainment, thus Paramount now owns IG and the
>> rights to produce Traveller material.  Everyone expressed shock and
>> general concern.

Really!  I misssed this as well!  I can't believe it!  I wonder if we'll be
seeing a Star Trek Traveller supplement....:(

Anything else happen in regards to this takeover?

/\___________________________Peter John Miller____________________________/\
||           "Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night..."          ||
||     Traveller, IG materials and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ!    ||
||            On Peter's World - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/           ||
\/<hr><hr>------------\/
   Great graphics, and the LOWEST prices on the net - www.irevolution.com

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 22:33:48 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Assumptions about Vargr invasions

Chris Cox writes:
>There been a bit of debate on weather the Vargr could have successfully
>invaded the Corridor or not.  During this debate it become apparent to me
>that our basic assumptions seem to be different.  I would like to know what
>information other are using to base their arguments on.  

Good for you, Chris. Arguments are a lot more fruitful when you can agree
on assumptions.

>What is being used for the sector data for Corridor?  I have Travellers'
>Digest 19 which has the sector data from 1119 and the information at the
>Joe's Missouri Archive
>(http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/archive/)seems to be the same. 

My Corridor data is taken from TD19 too.

>Is Trillion Credit Squadron the sole basis for how space fleets are built and
>maintained and is this really applicable to specific cases in the Imperium?

It is the only Traveller rules on the subject. Since my basic argument is
that the rules and the background are incompatible it seems reasonable to
use the rules and the background to argue from. Don't you agree?

>Is the Rebellion source book where we are getting all our information about
>the Corridor sector during this time or are we also using the TNS information
>from Challenge and Survival Margin?

Use any background information you want. Bear in mind that my argument is
that the background departed from the rules around 1118 or so, so any later
information is apt to be less than useful for convincing me of anything.
What I say is basically that given what we had been told about the Vargr all 
through the classic Traveller years up until Megatraveller began, the Vargr
conquests in Corridor and Domain of Deneb are completely inconsistent.

>And finally are we going to make the background fit the rules or the rules
>fit the background?

Oh, the rules to fit the background whenever possible, but only if possible,
not at the expense of a complete breakdown of consistency. And above all, no
rules that only apply to one set of sapients (Except for psycological ones, 
of course). What's sauce for the Vargr must also be sauce for the human. 

Besides, my opinion is that the part of Megatraveller background I complain
about dosen't fit the previous BACKGROUND either. Go look at the description
of the typical Vargr corsair bands in JTAS#21, for example. It is completely
imcompatible with the Invasion of Corridor.

Now, are we going to make the background fit the background or are we going
to accept huge inconsistencies?



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:00:23 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Vargr tactics (longish)

Thad Coons writes:
>If you and your fellows are too successful at raiding, people either start
>sending armed escorts with everything, 

What gives the Vargr in Corridor a huge boost for a short while is, of 
course, precisely that we're postulating that Lucan requested everything
with a jump drive. 

>or they stop shipping at all. (some one, some the other). Either way, 
>volume of shipping goes down and risk goes up, and your profits go down. 

I agree 100%

>Eventually, you HAVE to start raiding worlds if you're going to survive. 

No, if you want to survive you have to find some other defenseless prey.
In other words, you turn to neighbouring _Vargr_ planets where there is
still commerce going on.

>High population worlds are riskier, sure, but they're also much fatter...

No, high population worlds are not riskier, _they are DEADLY_. Raiding
them may or may not be possible, depending on how they are spread out
in their system, but taking them over is not.

>>>Instead, you cripple the weakest X-boat links you can find.
> 
>>Why? You're a Vargr Corsair. What kind of profit do you derive from 
>>attacking an X-boat or an X-boat tender?
> 
>You don't bother with the X-boats or tenders themselves: it's the way
>stations where they refuel and transfer information. If you control them,
>you can use them. 

But what do you want them FOR? Where's the profit?

>Furthermore, you isolate the high population worlds so they can't 
>coordinate their efforts against you. Even if you can't stop
>communications entirely, you hinder them and slow them down. 

But the high-population worlds don't need to coordinate against you. Each of
them is perfectly capable of fending you off on their own. Besides, you can't
isolate them for long, once they've built (or reactivated) a few more 
military couriers they can keep in contact without ever going near an X-boat
station.

>>>If for some reason it's necessary to reduce a planet's defenses to the
>>>point where they *have* to deal with you, you do it in wolf-pack
>>>fashion: send enough units to stretch out the defenses. 
> 
>>And where do you get these units? Each of them is commanded by a
>>captain and a crew who is in it for the profits. If it's an ally, how
>>do you persuade  him to go first and if it's a follower, are you sure
>>you want to cripple your forces so that another Corsair band can move
>>in and take over once you've exhausted yourself reducing the defenses?
> 
>Vargr aren't *just* motivated by profits. 

They are unless you're going to change the background on me. One of the
fundamental facts about Vargr corsairs is that they are commercial
ventures. Even when the leader dreams of empire-building he still has to 
keep his operation in the black until the happy day when he can take over
some place and start taxing some subjects.

>Pack tactics are similar, whether wolves hunt moose, dogs bait bears, or
>humans hunt mammoth. 

But pack tactics wouldn't be the same if the mammoths were intelligent and
outnumbered the humans, now would it? That's the case with the Vargr 
Corsairs and the Corridor and Deneb humans. They _outnumber_ them. The
prey is stronger than the attackers and just as intelligent.

>Less ideally, if you can't face a little risk for your fellows in the
>fleet, you don't join... and nobody ever follows a cowardly Vargr.

That's true, but noone follows a dead Vargr either.

>Just as a Vargr would not dream of attacking a high population world until
>it was isolated, so he would never dare try to conquer it in one blow.
>Instead, he would gather a fleet for the specific purpose of crippling its
>cability to build ships. 

But while he is gathering a fleet capable of sucessfully attacking a system
defended by 40+ trillion credits worth of system defenses, he has to keep
the operation in the black. That just isn't possible.

>A critical portion of that is going to be based in the extended system, 
>where it is the most exposed of all the planet's industry anyway. A 
>thousand bee stings can be just as fatal as one crushing blow.

Not when the bees are up against ten thousand flyswatters.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:25:23 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Interstellar economics (long)

Thad Coons writes:
>Hans Rancke replied
>>Taxes can't be sent from one planet to another unless you
>>have lots of cargo ships to carry valuable stuff between them. Bits in
>>a computer or  pieces of paper isn't wealth unless you can buy
>>something with it. If you can't eat, burn, or fondle it, it isn't
>>wealth.
> 
>OTOH, if you *can* buy things with these bits in a computer or pieces of
>paper, then are they worth something? Or suppose that you can buy things
>with them at one place, but not another?

That's just what I've been arguing is the case. The Mikesh taxes can only
be spent on Mikesh unless you're able to transport something from Mikesh
to somewhere else.

>>What do you think those credits ARE? Promisory notes. IOUs. They're not
>>wealth unless you can use it to buy something real.
> 
>As long as you accept and give them as if you expect them to be honored and
>intend to honor them, then they have just as real an effect as if you
>traded diamonds or gold coins. 

But that's just what I'm saying. IF you can use them to by stuff then they
are valuable, otherwise not.

>If the imperial banker on Mikesh says that the Admiral's accounts are empty, 
>and refuses to honor requests for payment from it, people are going to quit 
>giving the Admiral things like ships, parts, and repair time until they get 
>something more tangible than empty promises from him.

But they've never had anything more tangible than empty promises from him.
Every tax credit he has spent there has been provided by the Mikesh in the
first place. (Except insofar as there are ways to bring real valuables to
Mikesh, ie. by cargo ship).

>>I'm not talking about a budget. I'm talking about mines producing ore,
>>factories producing subsystems, and ship construction workers assembling
>>ships. All the stuff that Lucan CAN'T move away fom Mikesh.
> 
>No, he can't move that stuff, but most people don't give their labor away
>and get nothing for it... not for very long. Who's paying them, and with
>what? Lucan isn't giving them imperial credits anymore. Who is, and where
>are they claiming to get whatever they are paying with?

The same people who have been paying them all along; their fellow citizens.

>>Money is not a magic substance that turns into anything useful at the
>>wave of a hand. The only way to take anything out of a planetary
>>economy is to load something valuable onto a cargo ship and jump away.
>>(Or to build a ship and jump away with it ;-).
> 
>Even if Imperial credits do not have physical existence (*especially* if
>they do not), there must be social conventions which account for them as if
>they did. If these conventions exist, then you can indeed take credits out
>of or put them into a planetary economy with real effects (deflation,
>inflation). If they do not, then you must do exactly that: put something
>valuable on a ship and jump away with it. 

You're beginnig to realize what I'm saying. Those social conventions are
a means of lubricating the process, but essentially you don't pay for
stuff with money, you pay with labour or other stuff. That's why putting
more money into a system leads to inflation. It takes the same amount of
stuff or labour to pay as it always took, so with more money in the system
it will have to cost more to balance out.

>>OK, so on Day 001-1117 the Mikesh Government sends an electronic message
>>by courier to Lucan with the local taxes. How does that make them any
>>poorer and Lucan any richer? The next year Mikesh sends Lucan a note of
>>defiance instead. How does that make them any richer and Lucan any
>>poorer?
> 
>If I send a check to the IRS, how does that make me poorer and Uncle Sam
>richer? 

Yes, because you now have less "generalized IOUs" to cash in for the 
valuables you want. Uncle Sam, OTOH, can get those valuables for himself.
The process is really not very different from harvesting two bushels of
grain and giving one to the King.

>If I send only a blank form, how does that make me richer and Uncle Sam 
>poorer?

Yes, because now you can cash in your money for something real and Uncle Sam
can't. The King dosen't get his bushel of grain. Expect him to be upset. 

>Checkbook money may have no intrinsic worth apart from what I can get for
>it or get it for, but so long as I can trade it for food at the grocery
>store, it's of more practical use than my wife's diamond ring.

That's exactly my point. Your money is valuable because you can exchange it
for goods or services. If you couldn't, it wouldn't be. Now think a little
about how Lucan can buy anything with a check from Mikesh. Only by buying 
from Mikesh direct or at any number of removes. And Mikesh is being cut off
from the Core.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:06:19 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Warfare and economics (long)

Thad Coons writes:
>An assumption that Hans seems to be making in his analysis of the potenial
>for the Vargr invasion of Corridor is that his high population worlds can
>produce ships at the same rate that they could in an intact Imperium.

No, I'm assuming that they can produce ships at the rate set forth in the
rules about isolated worlds at war building ships. 

>This is highly questionable, for several reasons. One is the immediate
>economic impact of the withdrawal of the fleet, maintenance and
>construction budgets from Corridor. Sure, the world can adjust, but not
>overnight. The various worlds are still paying taxes for a time, but
>getting nothing for them (withdrawal from the Imperium is not to be done
>hastily).

TCS prohibits deficit spending even though that is perfectly possible in
Real Life. The reason must be that the TCS building rules isn't talking 
about tax money per se, but about shipbuilding capacity expressed in 
credits. A world can't build what it dosen't have the raw material and
labour to build. But the various worlds in Corridor _retain_ their ship 
building capacity. That dosen't get sent away to Core.

>If the Vargr are successful at all at raiding shipping, it will have an
>enormous disruptive influence. Ship losses, higher insurance rates, and the
>need to provide armed escort are all bad for the bottom line: many ordinary
>carriers will drop out of business entirely, and the survivors will charge
>inflated rates. Those business that depend on interstellar commerce,
>especially the higher tech industries, will similarly suffer.
>Likewise, if the Vargr disrupt communications, all interplanetary
>organizations will suffer.

Suffer, yes, but to what extent? The TCS rules are about what any single
planet can do on its ownsome. Mikesh may have a much bigger economy before 
the Vargr arrives, but that just gives it a lot more system defenses,
making it even more invulnerable.

>The Corridor worlds won't sacrifice their ties to the Imperium and begin
>the painful shift to a wartime economy at the first sign of trouble, but if
>they even so much as wait for Lucan's empty assurances that all will be
>well, it will be too late for many of them.

But it will not be too late for the high-population worlds because they are
immensely strong even at peacetime levels.

>Corridor is not prepared for war. The first real trouble comes with the
>departure of the Corridor fleet, which strips at least half their defense.

But the remaining half is easily enough to handle the Vargr corsairs. As I'm 
getting a bit tired of pointing out, the Vargr corsairs are not the whole 
Vargr strength. In fact, unless you want to change the whole background 
drastically, they are not even close to being anything like their full 
strength. The largest of the Vargr corsair bands "rival SMALL Vargr 
interstellar governments in scope, power, and naval strength" (JTAS#21, p. 
10; emphasis mine). The Kforuzeng, who are touted as an example of the 
"middle and upper range corsair operations" (p. 10) had, at their peak, 
"35 starships, ranging from 100 tons to 1000 tons in size".

By this standard the 30,000 T Vargr corsair cruiser mentioned in _Rebellion_
is an upper range corsair operation on its own. The massive fleets that would
be needed to attack even a medium-population world is completely un-Vargrlike.
According to the background, that is...

>The disruption of the interstellar economy will be taking at the same time
>the worlds are shifting to a wartime economy, which is a recipe for chaos
>and confusion if I ever heard one.  

That's true enough, and I won't mind conceding some delay here. how long 
would you consider reasonable?

>Furthermore, the assumption that the high population worlds alone could 
>rebuild the equivalent of the entire active fleet in a matter of months 

First of all, it wasn't in a matter of months, but in a matter of years.
Secondly, it isn't a complete rebuild of the fleet, just enough to deal
with the Vargr corsairs (Enough to deal with several orders of magnitude
more Vargr corsairs than the background talks about, as a matter of fact).
Thirdly, if you assume that the Imperial worlds are using 3% of their
GNP in peacetime and 15% in wartime (the _Striker_ figures) there are
mothballed ships equivalent to 8 times the active fleet floating around 
somewhere. They can be reactivated in 1/10th the time and at 1/10th the 
cost that new construction will take. I don't claim that this is necessarily 
the case, but there is some support for it in the fact that Trin is still 
reactivating ships in 1123. 

>strikes me as equivalent to claiming that a metropolis could restaff, 
>resupply, and support the local military base at the same time the enemy 
>is trying to besiege it.

The Vargr corsairs aren't trying to besiege anything. They lack the strength.

>It's a little bit late to *start* building tanks when your enemies are
>already hijacking freight trucks.

Only if losing those trucks will destroy your tank-building capacity. But
a high-population world can build ships without any help from outside.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "This gives a possible range of 56 to 178 starships
         total  in the three Terran starport facilities,  a
         believable quantity for such a star system."

        "We have a maximum of 178 ships in port, and (as it
         is a busy star system)  we will say that there are
         70 docking berths at the Phoenix facility."

                        ---Journal of the Traveller's
                           Aid Society # 22

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:11:28 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Assumptions about the Vargr invasion of Corridor

Chris Cox writes:
>I forgot to also ask where are we getting data for the Vargr sectors? 
>Specificlly the Tuglikk, Provance, and Windhorn sectors.  I personally am not
>familiar with any sources for this information.

Neither am I. I'm therefor assuming that they are distributed much like the
humans are. Note that this propably shouldn't be the case; from what we know
about Vargr nature, most if not all high-population Vargr worlds would 
propably be balkanized. I bet noone thought about that when they generated 
the Vargr sectors, though.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

<hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 97 17:07:48 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Uncle Cleon, the taxman...and the Imperial Fleet

On 01/01/97 at 03:50 PM,  anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
said:

> Remember that worlds spend most of their cash themselves, only a small
> part of all tax levied goes to the Imperium and only a part of that to
> the military.

> Look at the UN and see how much the member countries spend on UNs
> military for an analogy that's propably not missing the mark by more than
> the default assumption (on this list) that the Imperium works exactly
> like the US with the worlds like individual states.

Absolutely!  I don't see the Imperium anything at all like the US. The
Imperium is a feudal society, not a representative democracy, not a
Federation.  The member worlds, the subsectors and the sectors are much
more independent than are the cities, counties, and states of the US...or
any modern western government.

The Sector Fleets are *Sector* fleets, under titular control of the local
Archdukes.  The Subsector Fleets are contolled by the local Dukes.  Sure
the Fleets work together under Imperial authority, but that's due to the
fealty of the Dukes to the Archdukes and the Archdukes to the Emperior. 
During the Civil War those oaths of fealty could, would, did break down.  

The individual worlds supply ships to the fleets and/or support in the form
of taxes or services.  This doesn't mean that the only military assets they
produce are destined for the Imperial Fleets. I think the *actual* Imperial
Fleet would be fairly small with most of it's assets really belonging to
the Archdukes and Dukes...on loan (not the proper term but the best a
non-feudalist like me can come up with <g>) to the Emperor.

Especially in times like those, I'd expect rich worlds to look to their own
defense.  The Dukes and Archdukes would/did take stonger control over their
assets, diminishing Imperial control, if for no other reason than they
weren't sure *who* they owed their fealty to.

Additionally, planetary economists would be sharp enough to know what would
happen if they suddenly idled all the mines, factories, and shipyards that
built/refitted ships for the Fleets.  Local governments would keep their
workers employed to avoid the
depression.  If they could afford to build the ships before the war they
can afford to build them now, and if the Imperium ever comes back with it's
hand out, they're Barons and Dukes will have ships ready to offer in
fealty.

Finally, you really don't think that the Imperial Credit is the *only*
monetary unit floating around do you?  I see the ICredit like the
Euro-dollar, a unit or interstellar exchange, but *just* for interstellar
exchange.  Local economies use their *own* currency, that's what local
workers get paid.  The Credit is good in the Starport proper, and
*probably* accepted in Startown, but elsewhere maybe not.  Could I use
francs to buy "fish and chips" in London? Or pounds to by a bottle of wine
in Paris?  Have any of you ESA folks ever *seen* a Euro-dollar?

The banking houses would convert Credits to and from local currency.
Exchange rates *might* be fixed but I strongly doubt it, and as the
Imperium collapes the worth of a Credit on local exchanges will drop toward
zero.  Confidence is the key, and over time confidence in the Imperium
disappeared.  This will work to dry up interstellar trade as much as
anything.  Interstellar trade probably turns into barter pretty quickly.

Eris
- -- 
- <hr>-----------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- <hr>-----------------------------

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:31:27 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Vargr tactics

Eris Reddoch writes:
>On 12/30/96 at 05:39 AM,  Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> said:
>>[...] Once those worlds have had some time
>>to  make good the lost ships, the Vargr would be kicked out again.
> 
>Were the Vargr quickly "kicked out again?"

No. That's excactly what I'm complaining about. Given what we know of the
situation there is no way to rationalize that they weren't. That is called
an inconsistency. I hate those.

>First, Lucan *probably* didn't withdraw *all* his forces.
>Certainly, he took the attack fleet with him...and as much of the mobile
>reserve as possible, but I would expect he left strong military presence on
>major worlds.  Why?  So he could insure that the shipyards kept building
>ships, the schools keep churning out crews, and the replacement ships he
>needed kept coming toward Core and out of Corridor.  The Officers Lucan
>left in Corridor probably were under orders to *ruthlessly* extract as much
>as possible and not to worry about what happened to minor systems...hence
>the Vargr incursions.  

Good points. But I've never disputed that the Vargr corsairs would have a
ball at first, attacking the small weak worlds. What Lucan can't move away
from the local worlds are the system defenses and the shipbuilding
capabilities. And its the first that should keep the Vargr from overrunning
the worlds and the second that should eventually kick them out again.

Now, we may move the date for "eventually" a bit by assuming that Lucan's
loyalists keep sending reactivated units away, but how long will they be
able to keep that up? Remember that the remaining system defense forces
outnumber the remaining Imperial troops by thousands to one.

>At some point the remaining Officers would have decided to "take over" 
>where they were, and/or the local governments would have decided to 
>"take out" the Officers. 

And when that happens the Vargr corsairs had better pack up and go home.

>In the end, it's likely that the major systems would develop very 
>isolationist tendencies.  The major systems could defend themselves, 
>sure, they were also self-suffcient, so they would have hunkered down 
>to ride out the hard times, and let the outside worlds fend for themselves.

That's one possibility, but even isolationist worlds would want to curb
the Vargr. Besides, a much more likely scenario is that Norris would send
_some_ of those thousands of reactivated and newly build ships that the 
Deneb Domain is churning out to cover for the absent Corridor fleets.
I mean, how long is he going to reinforce his counter-Zhodani fleets in
the face of month after month of the absence of any Zhodani threat? 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:38:18 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Vargr invades Corridor!

Chris Cox writes:
>Thad Coons wrote:
>>If you're a smart Vargr, you don't even go near the high population worlds
>>for a while. 
> 
>I think that the Vargr would do just the opposite.  The Vargr would
>need to hit the high population industrialized world as fast and as
>hard as they can.  If they don't then the Vargr will be allowing
>these planets the chance to start building and reactivating ships by
>the thousands (the Hi Pop Industrial Production from Hell scenario
>that Hans has been championing).  After securing these worlds you can
>then go after the rest.

That's like saying that after the Barbary Pirates secured Washington they
could go after the rest of the American cities. First they have to be
suicidally foolish enough to try. Then they have to be insanely lucky
enough to succeed. And then they have to KEEP the control...

Actually, the scenario of the Barbary pirates invading America is a pretty
good parallel to how plausible the Vargr invasions of Corridor is...


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:42:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Why the Aztecs lost

> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 03:43:51 -0800
> From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
> 
> The Aztecs lost because they weren`t British.  Simple really.

They weren't?  Let's examine the evidence:

  Mexica                          Brits
=================================================================
  Education for upper classes     Eton
   featured corporal punishment,
   "hazing," and military
   training.
  Considered insufferable prigs   France
   by their more cultured,
   refined neighbors across a
   narrow body of water.
  Motecuhzoma criticized for      Chamberlain
   pursuing policy of appease-
   ment and concession with
   Cortez.
  People were fond of a dish      "Bubble and Squeak"
   made from lake scum.
  Traders liked to pretend they   British East India Company
   were warriors, depened on
   regular army to pull their
   asses out of the fire at need.
  Society poured enormous         Cricket
   resources and energy into
   obscure, incredibly lengthy
   rituals, which other nations
   could not understand.

Need I say more?

- <hr><hr>---------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

<hr>

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #804
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, January 2 1997      Volume 1996 : Number 805



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Shipboard gas mix
Re: Heat Tolerance in Starships
Re: Interstellar economics (long)
Re: Imperial fleets
Re: gone
Results of the Foss Art Contest
Re: Heat Tolerance in Starships
Re: Vargr invades Corridor!
Re: Warfare and economics (long)
Re: Why the Aztecs lost
Re: Shipboard gas mix
Re: Imperial fleets
re:why the Aztecs lost
Provence Sector Data
Re: Campaign Ideas
Re: T4 the Best?
Fifth Frontier War
Re: Interstellar economics (long)

<hr><hr>----------

Date: 02 Jan 97 11:15:08 +1100
From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Subject: Shipboard gas mix

     Why would a ship bother carrying a whopping great load of nitrogen 
     (78% of its atmosphere) around? It's pretty damn useless except for 
     fertilising gardens and coming out in your blood as bubbles when you 
     decompress. 
     
     Perhaps ships could use an inert gas mix - helium scooped out of that 
     gas giant atmosphere and separated from the hydrogen when refuelling. 
     
     The only problem would be that the crew and passengers would all sound 
     like Mickey Mouse...
     
     Maybe ships use different gas mixes depending on what's most commonly 
     available? The inert (helium, argon, neon?) and semi-inert gasses 
     (nitrogen, ?) with the right mix of oxygen, kept clean by either 
     scrubbers or hydroponic plants, or maybe both. 

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 16:25:42 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Heat Tolerance in Starships

Wed, 01 Jan 1997 10:17:04 -0800, David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
>   ...Once a ship reaches its limits, throw 10+ every quarter hour for
>it to fail under the heat or pressure, after which its drives stop and
>it falls."
>
>Obviously, more accurate limits should be based on hull material type
>and armor value. After all, 5 inches of steel would fail before an
>equivalent thickness of bonded superdense (IMO). Any materials science
>gurus lurking about?

First off all, armor screening you from attack does not necessarily
seal you off from the actions of a fluid under pressure.

More importantly, the throw seems to be to see if the maneuver
drives fail, not if the hull gives way.

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

<hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 97 18:19:39 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Interstellar economics (long)

Hans, I agree with you on this...mostly.

On 01/01/97 at 11:25 PM,  Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> said:

> That's just what I've been arguing is the case. The Mikesh taxes can only
> be spent on Mikesh unless you're able to transport something from Mikesh
> to somewhere else.

> >>What do you think those credits ARE? Promisory notes. IOUs. They're not
> >>wealth unless you can use it to buy something real.
 
> >As long as you accept and give them as if you expect them to be honored
> and >intend to honor them, then they have just as real an effect as if
> you >traded diamonds or gold coins. 

> But that's just what I'm saying. IF you can use them to by stuff then
> they are valuable, otherwise not.

Guys, it's all psychological.  Those promisory notes are worthless if you
don't expect to be able to exchange them for items of value. The US dollar
(a promisory note) is based on the *confidence* of the public in the
continued strength of the US economy AND the US government.  

Hans you're a Dane, right?  Would you accept US dollars in exchange for
your labor?  Why?  Could you directly spend those dollars for food,
shelter, goodies, or would you convert them to Kroner first?  (Did I get
that right?  <g>)

Now, if the US was in the middle of a terrible civil war with it's economy
being wreaked, and you were cut off from accurate news of the current
situation in the US, would you accept US dollars for your labor, or your
stuff?  Would US dollars continue to have the same precieved worth?  I
doubt it.

Suppose a world wide war (TW2k's plot let's say) was on and the economies
of the US and Europe were wreaked.  The US 3rd Corps is cantoned in and
around Copenhagen (just suppose), and it offers to buy food from you, a
farmer, with US dollars...do you *dare* refuse? They could just take it
after all.  They could arrest you as a tratior, war profiter, malingerer,
or just *shoot* you if you refused to take their script.  How would you
feel about the worth of the dollars you were paid?  Do you think the
blacksmith in the village would take those dollars in exchange for fixing
your plow? He might if the guys with the guns forced him to, but would he
*want* to?  Would you and your neighbors happily work to supply the 3rd
Corps, even when it was clear that they would be moving on eventually and
leaving you to fend for yourselves in a *very* hostile world.

Lucan's fleet, *everybodies* fleet, is in the same situation during the
civil war.  It might have umpty-billion Imperial Credits due it in taxes
from Corridor worlds, but just how valuable would they be considered in
Core?  Lucan's Officers could use threat, or actual force, to get supplies,
but that's only going to work where they've got the guns to enforce their
threats.  I think the Civil War made Imperial Credits worth less everywhere
and worthless wherever there wasn't a military unit capable of forcing
their acceptance.

Once the general public lost faith in the Imperium as a whole the Imperium
as a unit collasped.  What remained were travelling fleets feeding off the
land, small groups of worlds lead by the local nobility, and isolated
worlds.  Wherever the fleets had passed though the local worlds would have
been in sad shape, and would have *hated* the faction that had passed
through...maybe the entire concept of an Imperium.


Eris

ps.  About the Vargr occupation of Corridor.  I agree there's no way they
could do that against a unified sector.  They couldn't occupy the rich or
high population worlds either.  However, I think they could control the
sector *after* it is wreaked!  If the Civil War wreaked the economies and
infrastructure of the main worlds then the Vargr would have had easy...or
easier...pickings on their raids. The Vargr would have had *lots* of small
raiding parties swarming across the sector, not a large organized or
coordinated force.

A smart Vargr leader would have *protected* a rich world from raids from
other Vargr in exchange for it's fealty to him.  If the Vargr work it right
the humans would *invite* him in.  Why should the humans really care *who*
it is that protects their world and insures safety of interstellar trade?

The Vargr win by being HERD DOGS, not attack dogs.

- -- 
- <hr>-----------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- <hr>-----------------------------

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 01:42:43 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Imperial fleets

Eris Reddoch writes:
>On 01/01/97 at 03:50 PM,  anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
>said:
> 
>>Remember that worlds spend most of their cash themselves, only a small
>>part of all tax levied goes to the Imperium and only a part of that to
>>the military.

If the Imperium works the way TCS implies then it gets 30% of the military
funds of each member planet. Of this some undefined portion goes to the
Army, the Marines and the Scouts. My own guess would be that the Army gets 
about 6%. I don't know how much would be reasonable for the the Marines and
the Scouts get.

However, the figures we have for the Imperial Navy seems to indicate that
the Imperial Navy only gets ca. Cr30 per citizen (warning: Very broad
assumptions used). Note that this is the Navy alone, without the Navy,
the Scouts, or the Marines. This might translate into perhaps Cr50-70
total for all four services together, which is certainly compatible with
TCS (Note, however, that if this is the case, the system defenses of the
individual worlds are much larger than TCS implies).

>Absolutely!  I don't see the Imperium anything at all like the US. The
>Imperium is a feudal society, not a representative democracy, not a
>Federation.

Agreed. But don't make the mistake of thinking that the Imperium is a feudal 
society exactly like the ancient medieval European style.

>The Sector Fleets are *Sector* fleets, under titular control of the local
>Archdukes.  The Subsector Fleets are contolled by the local Dukes.  

This is incorrect. One of the difference is that the feudal ties are civil
ties, not military. The organization chart on page 28 of _Rebellion_ makes
it clear that military orders goes down through the military chain of
command (Actually, what the chart shows is that the dukes give military
orders and the Admiralty provide noble supervision. I assume that the
two signature explanations have been mixed up; I certainly find it easier
to believe that noble supervision is provided by nobles and military orders
come from military officers, than the other way around, don't you?). The 
archdukes (often bypassed, btw.) and the dukes supervise the actions of the 
military, but they do not give orders except when directly authorized by the 
Emperor (or cut off from him). Remember the problems Norris had with the
naval CinC during 5FW until he could get hold of an Imperial Warrant?

>I think the *actual* Imperial Fleet would be fairly small with most of it's 
>assets really belonging to the Archdukes and Dukes... on loan (not the 
>proper term but the best a non-feudalist like me can come up with <g>) to 
>the Emperor.

That is not the case. Even the reserve fleets, while locally built and
maintained, belonged to the Imperium. The planetary defense forces
belonged to the planet, so unless a duke happened to be a planetary ruler
he would have no military ships at all.

The rest of your remarks I agree with completely.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

<hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 19:16:32 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: gone

Peter J. Miller wrote:
> 
> At 09:18 01/01/97 -0600, you wrote:
> >On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, Harold D. Hale wrote:
> >
> >>    The 27th started out with an announcement that Paramount Pictures had
> >> purchased Sweetpea Entertainment, thus Paramount now owns IG and the
> >> rights to produce Traveller material.  Everyone expressed shock and
> >> general concern.
> 
> Really!  I misssed this as well!  I can't believe it!  I wonder if we'll be
> seeing a Star Trek Traveller supplement....:(
> 
> Anything else happen in regards to this takeover?

Yeah. Harold woke up from his nightmare(thank goodness).

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:35:41 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Results of the Foss Art Contest

Hi,

Bruce Johnson just made his judgement for the winner of the contest.  All 
of the entries received were very entertaining to me - I'm glad I didn't 
have to judge! :)

What follows is Bruce's message to me, declaring the winner, as well as 
the winner's story, and the runner-up's story.

Enjoy!

- -Joe

PS:  There will be another contest this month - as soon as I can con 
Wildstar into judging it, anyway. [G]  Look for the announcement!
=============================================================================
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

Well, Joe, I've thought, and the winner is...brrrrmmmmm (drumroll)

The Dymaxion Engineer, with the The Dirkali Monorail a close, close
second.

The Dymaxion Engineer introduces several plot hooks, new technology, and a
intriguing explanation for having a monorail in the first place. And it
had TML in-jokes; what more could be asked?


=============================
The Winner
=============================
By: Glenn Grant <pawn@CAM.ORG>

The Dymaxion Engineer

I've never seen anything like this. Sure, we've had a fair bit of sabotage
recently, mostly crude bombs set by Breejnee guerrillas, but this - this is
a whole other scale. The bugger who did this was dead sophisticated. Our
SkyRails are mostly superconducting fulleride-doped cerametal, reinforced
with diamond fibres. Extra grouse. Nothing solid cuts this stuff. But look
- - that's a fairly clean break, innit? Our lab boys say the terrorists used
a modified bacterium that secretes an industrial enzyme designed to
dissolve the bonds in just this type of material. Works like a demon. They
probably delivered it via the cargo tubes - we ship packages down the
center of the rail, right?

I doubt the Breejnee did it, though. They're too stupid. Sorry, is that 
'insensitive'? Of course they aren't stupid, just ignorant little bludgers.
They simply don't have access to the tech. Most of 'em live in the tribal
areas down there in the outback. That's why Dymaxion Corp built the SkyRail
system. Pommy Imperial Navy came in - we put up a good fight, but once
they'd taken out our moon, we knew the Imperial bustards had us by the
bollocks. Made us sign a treaty with the Breejnee - leave the little blue
devils alone to live their lives in the tropics and mid-lattitudes, and the
Breejnee have to leave us alone in the polar regions. Imperials pat
themselves on the back, figure they've done their good deed for the day by
imposing martial law on us and straightening things out down here.

Well, we've lived up to our side of the treaty, but the bloody Breejnee are
always complaining about some damn thing or other. Either they're whinging
about our subsurface mining operations, or the river diversion projects, or
now the SkyRail system. You'd think they'd be happy - they got to keep most
of the planet for themselves. Whereas we've got population problems, stuck
in our little polar zones.

And commuting can be a royal pain in the arse. From Nordport to Sudland a
good twenty-four hour haul in the fastest gravliner. We used to use
suborbital boats for pole-to-pole trips, but ever since the War there's
been too much lunar debris in orbit. Splattered a fair number of boats
before we built the SkyRail. Navy says they'll clean it up eventually, but
I wouldn't hold my breath. Meantime, incoming ships have to use that
bastard high-angle polar drop path, as you probably noticed on the way
down.

But we're still a burgeoning economy. People gotta move, commerce goes on.
So Dymaxion put up the SkyRails. Big mother of a project. Two lines, strung
from top of the world to bottom. Gravitics to keep 'em up, of course,
'cause we can't upset the silly blue buggers by building support pylons
across their bloody sacred wasteland. These monorail Magliners do the
pole-to-pole run in less than six hours - and they're mostly safe from any
stray bits of moon getting in the way.

'Course, the SkyRail has to withstand some pretty impressive tensile loads.
When a Magliner is at top speed, the rail is actually holding the it down
as much as driving it. You've seen the vids of what happened to the
_Corianis_ when the cable snapped? Rather nasty, that was. No survivors,
obviously. A fair lot of off-duty Naval scum on board, if that's got
anything to do with it. See there, over on the horizon, that line of hills
with the big, fresh crater on the side? Yeah, that big'n, third from the
left. That's where she came down.

No, the Breejnee didn't do this. Not without help, that is. That
bacterium's a Dymaxion product, supposed to be kept under tight security.
You might start by looking at the biotech facilities in Nordport, see if
you can't find the leak. Dymaxion will give you company ID, and a job that
moves you around a lot. There are some urban Breejnee working in Systems
Maintenance - they're small enough to be useful for getting at problems in
tight spots. You might try to get friendly with them. They're more likely
to trust off-worlders than local blokes like me. Mind you, our own
investigators have been trying to infiltrate the saboteurs for years now.
Some of our blokes, well, we've, uh, lost touch with 'em. You'll get a look
at their files. See if you can't find out what happened to them, eh?

Bugger. Here comes that nosy Navy inspector. Hope he falls off the rail.
Let's get back to the liner, have us some hot kava.


============================
The Runner-Up
============================
By : Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
  
 
    THE DIRKALI MONORAIL
     
     High above the surface of the planet Nasea (Core 0802 B867765-A), the 
     research starship *Imperial Hope* has stopped to investigate the ruin 
     of of the famous Dirkali Monorail. 
     
     So named because the surviving section floats above the Dirkali Desert, 
     the Dirkali Monorail was built over two thousand years ago, during the 
     Rule of Man. Nasea had been a high technology and population centre, but 
     with the fall of the Rule of Man in -1776, the planet reverted to the 
     smaller population sustainable at tech 10. 
     
     The Monorail was designed as a planetwide transit system, and made of 
     the same superdense material used today in starship hulls, but 
     augmented by an advanced molecular bonding process. High technology 
     polymer cables also reinforced the Monorail against the cyclones caused 
     by Nasea's high rotation, standard atmosphere and proximity to the type 
     M primary star. 
     
     The central tube was kept in near-vacuum to eliminate atmospheric 
     resistance; using gravitic acceleration and inertial compensation 
     technologies, Monorail cars carried passengers and freight at speeds 
     in excess of 2000 metres per second. At these speeds, a Monorail car 
     could circumnavigate the planet in less than six hours; even allowing 
     for stops, cars routinely circled Nasea twice a day. 
     
     Today, the Dirkali relic is the only remaining segment of the 
     Monorail. It is one of the most famous attractions in the 
     subsector; adventurous tourists come from as far as Sylea or even 
     Vland to "Walk the Dirkali". A tribute to the sophistication of 
     Rule of Man engineering and technology, the massively redundant 
     solar- and wind-powered gravitic repulsor system still holds this 
     part of the ancient Monorail high above the desert. 
     
     The remaining Dirkali segment is 54km long; tourists walk along the 
     old maintenance pathway on top of the Monorail. By law, every walker 
     is required to carry safety gear including a grav chute, a radio 
     beacon and at least three days' rations. 
     
     In this illustration, the *Hope* hovers at the western end of the 
     Dirkali, where a massive storm and series of cable failures cut 
     the Monorail almost a thousand years ago. The impressive tensile 
     strength of the bonded superdense material and monomolecule cable 
     augmentation is impressively demonstrated by the fact that this 
     section of the Monorail *deformed* by several kilometres before 
     it finally failed. 
     
     The type M0V primary is setting in the background, to the west of 
     the *Hope*; Nasea occupies the inmost orbit, approximately 0.2AU 
     (less than 29 million kilometres) from the star. 
     

<hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 19:49:47 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Heat Tolerance in Starships

David P. Summers wrote:

<snippage of my previous post>
 
> First off all, armor screening you from attack does not necessarily
> seal you off from the actions of a fluid under pressure.

Absolutely. The overall hull shape and internal support structure in
addition to the hull material would need to be considered. A sphere,
after all, is the most efficient shape when dealing with pressure with
cylinders running second place. Form follows function in the real world
and submarines are cylindrical for very good reasons (i.e. the laws of
physics).

> More importantly, the throw seems to be to see if the maneuver
> drives fail, not if the hull gives way.

It is and that was one point about the adventure which absolutely drove
me nuts because it just didn't make sense. When I challenged the ref on
it, he replied that he had a damage effects chart based on real-world
physics ready for use. Common sense prevailed and I decided to enjoy the
adventure instead. :-)

<hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 97 19:58:54 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Vargr invades Corridor!

On 01/02/97 at 12:38 AM,  Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> said:

> That's like saying that after the Barbary Pirates secured Washington they
> could go after the rest of the American cities. First they have to be
> suicidally foolish enough to try. Then they have to be insanely lucky
> enough to succeed. And then they have to KEEP the control...

During what time period?  If you're talking Washington, circa 1795, then
it's not that unreasonable. <g>

> Actually, the scenario of the Barbary pirates invading America is a
> pretty good parallel to how plausible the Vargr invasions of Corridor
> is...

I think it's more like Mexico invading the US after the third world war in
TK2k.  Hum, actually more like Cuba invading Florida after WWIII.  <g>

You are right though, under normal circumstances the Vargr couldn't have
succeeded in taking or holding the sector.  For the Vargr to control
Corridor longterm they would have needed some very special circumstances. 
I think I've presented a plasible scenerio in another post.

Eris
- -- 
- <hr>-----------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- <hr>-----------------------------

<hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 21:38:33 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Warfare and economics (long)

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> By this standard the 30,000 T Vargr corsair cruiser mentioned in _Rebellion_
> is an upper range corsair operation on its own. The massive fleets that would
> be needed to attack even a medium-population world is completely un-Vargrlike.
> According to the background, that is...

I just wanna throw in my Cr0.02 here, for what it is worth...
In Vilani and Vargr, (IIRC) there was mention of the development of a virtual vargr 
(pseudo-reality) that was the epitome of the perfect vargr leader. "He" could have easily 
united a number of bands to knock off the ill prepared Imperials ("what do we have to fear 
from the doggies? They never unite for any reason") Then after the Imperial bases are off 
balance and in Vargr hands, and the vargr begin to use the imperial shipyards.
Now the imperials have a real problem...they no longer have the strength to puish the vargr 
out, but the vargr no longer have the strength to take out the human resistance, and the war 
becomes one of low level raiding.
Just a thought

<hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 21:42:13 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Why the Aztecs lost

Craig Berry wrote:
> 
> > Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 03:43:51 -0800
> > From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
> >
> > The Aztecs lost because they weren`t British.  Simple really.
> 
> They weren't?  Let's examine the evidence:
> 
>   Mexica                          Brits
> =================================================================
>   Education for upper classes     Eton
>    featured corporal punishment,
>    "hazing," and military
>    training.
>   Considered insufferable prigs   France
>    by their more cultured,
>    refined neighbors across a
>    narrow body of water.
>   Motecuhzoma criticized for      Chamberlain
>    pursuing policy of appease-
>    ment and concession with
>    Cortez.
>   People were fond of a dish      "Bubble and Squeak"
>    made from lake scum.
>   Traders liked to pretend they   British East India Company
>    were warriors, depened on
>    regular army to pull their
>    asses out of the fire at need.
>   Society poured enormous         Cricket
>    resources and energy into
>    obscure, incredibly lengthy
>    rituals, which other nations
>    could not understand.
> 
> Need I say more?

You almost had me convinced...BUT...the Mexica drank pulque, water or chocolate
not Tea or Gin

<hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 21:43:18 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Shipboard gas mix

Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:
> 
>      Why would a ship bother carrying a whopping great load of nitrogen
>      (78% of its atmosphere) around? It's pretty damn useless except for
>      fertilising gardens and coming out in your blood as bubbles when you
>      decompress.
> 
>      Perhaps ships could use an inert gas mix - helium scooped out of that
>      gas giant atmosphere and separated from the hydrogen when refuelling.
> 
>      The only problem would be that the crew and passengers would all sound
>      like Mickey Mouse...

or just do like the space program, 100% oxygen at 0.2 pressure

<hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 97 20:47:30 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Imperial fleets

On 01/02/97 at 01:42 AM,  Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> said:

What you say makes sense, but I actually think it's more feudal than you
think.  The way it works on paper, the way it really workds, and the
legality of the way it is supposed to work don't have to match, you know. 
<g>

As long as the Imperium is a cohesive unit it wouldn't matter who's fleet
assets actually belonged to whom, because the Nobles owed fealty to the
Emperor and the Emperor's Officers (under His orders) would take
precedence.  During a Civil War with NO Emperor and competing claimants the
whole thing disolved.  The mobile Fleets basically stayed loyal to their
Admirals, but the Sector fleets were loyal to the noble most powerful in
that sector weren't they?

> (Actually, what the chart shows is that the dukes give military orders
> and the Admiralty provide noble supervision. I assume that the two
> signature explanations have been mixed up; I certainly find it easier to
> believe that noble supervision is provided by nobles and military orders
> come from military officers, than the other way around, don't you?)

Sure would make more sense wouldn't it.  <g>  OTOH, perhaps the Nobles *do*
give the orders and the Admiralty is to provide
supervision of the nobles...making sure they stay loyal to the Emperor.  I
can fully believe that's possible too...not nearly as effecient, but quite
possible. 

Let's see, if you were the Emperor who would you trust with all those fleet
assets:  Admirals who have taken control of the Iridium Throne before, and
who should know how to use all that power; or Nobles who have a vested
interest in maintaining the network of power with the Emperor at the top,
and who aren't military experts.  Well, a smart Emperor wouldn't trust
either group and would probably maneuver the rules to weaken *both* groups
and have them watching each other.

The Fleet didn't stay together once Cleon was ?assassinated?, in fact it
came apart much too easily for there to have been a strong central control. 
It had to have been internally very fragmented even before the Rebellion
began.  I think the fragments were Noble sized chunks, no matter what the
offical Order of Battle indicated.

Eris
- -- 
- <hr>-----------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- <hr>-----------------------------

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 03:17:35 -0800
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: re:why the Aztecs lost

All the foibles he pointed out were flaws of the English,not the Scots 
and Irish who conquered the Empire.Therefore it`s a flawed argument.

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:52:41 -0500
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Provence Sector Data

Any chance that the sector data for Provence (MT era) is availible online
too? I guess I could always d/l the Gvurrdon data and extrapolate using that
and the MT charted space maps.

Thanks!

\_/
DED

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:36:00 -0500
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Campaign Ideas

<<Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 17:47:21 -0800
From: The Orcslayer <rguy@cdsnet.net>
Subject: Campaign ideas...

Hmmm...
	I'm using MT rules and was toying with the idea of trashing the imperium and
designing my own universe.
<snip, snip>
I will probably keep the concept of The Imperium in the campaign but it 
will be a new entity.Has anyone tryed this? How successful were you?>>

I think the release of Virus was GDW's way of trashing the Imperium. My
campaign is currently at t-minus 9 years from the release of Virus. I look
fwd to the Chaos that will ensue when it's released.

\_/
DED

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 21:12:56 -0800
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: T4 the Best?

On 17 Dec 96 at 22:53, Stuart L. Dollar said some incredibly stupid 
things:

> Are we talking about the DGP of Joe Fugate, Rob Caswell, Mike 
> Vilardi, et al, or the one of Roger Sanger?  There's a world of
> difference there, my friend.  The creative body of the DGP of the
> CT/MT days is LONG gone, and from all appearances, they ain't coming
> back.

It has come to my attention that I have made statements that have been 
hurtful personally, and professionally to Roger Sanger and the staff at 
DGP.  It should have been obvious before I even sent this.

Let me start by saying that I have long been a fan of DGP's Traveller 
materials, and that several of them adorn the bookcase about 5 feet 
away from the computer on which I write this.  It was not my 
intention to harm Roger Sanger, or his ongoing efforts to acquire a 
license with which to republish existing DGP Traveller materials, or 
create, new original works for T4.  

As a fan of DGP's past publications, I am hopeful that Roger WILL get 
that license, if for no other reason than the most selfish of reasons 
(I'd like to fill out my own collection).  :-)

I sincerely wish Roger luck in his efforts to acquire a license, and offer a 
sincere apology to him for having ever opened my foot sized and shaped 
mouth in the first place.

I also apologize to William Hostman for the tone of my post.  Must 
have been a bad hair week...  

Best wishes for a prosperous and Traveller filled, 1997.  :-)

Stu

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:47:40 -0600 (CST)
From: granthh@anubis.network.com (Harley Grantham)
Subject: Fifth Frontier War

Does anyone have any errata for Fifth Frontier War?

It's pretty obvious the Imperial Order of Battle isn't quite right.  I was
wondering what else might have needed correction.

Thanks in advance for any help on this.

- -- 
Harley Grantham					granthh@anubis.network.com

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 01:00:17 -0500
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Interstellar economics (long)

Hans:
> There comes a time when it becomes necessary to transfer valuable stuff.
You
> wouldn't be alive if you couldn't buy food with your salary, for example.
> That's what I mean by valuables. _Stuff_. Things grown or raised or dug up
> out of the earth or manufactured. Money and credit is worthless if you
can't
> use it to buy something useful.

Of course money is worthless if you can't buy any thing with it.  That what
money is for, buying stuff.  Just as my coffee maker is pretty worthless
if you don't make coffee with it. 

Hans wrote a bunch a stuff about him buying me a beer despite the fact the
neither of us or the beers leaves our countries. ending with:
> If there's no cargo transfer between two systems, no actual wealth can be
> transferred (Except knowledge, which is a special case).

Actually wealth was transfered.  You spent time earning the beer that you
bought for whoever visited Denmark.  You transferred wealth to this person. 
This person had earlier bought me a beer transfering wealth to me.  Bottom
line, you're poorer and I'm richer.  For some reason you seem to think that
wealth is only material resources.  It isn't, wealth is resources both
material and intangible.  

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Clusrter Traveller Pages
(http://user.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

<hr>

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #805
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, January 2 1997      Volume 1996 : Number 806



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #804
Re: gone
FYI - It Could Be Worse
Re: 21st Century History
Re: Interstellar economics (long)
Re: Why the Aztecs lost
The Armor Value in T4
Re: Warfare and economics
Re: Why the Aztecs Lost (was: Why the Vilani lost)
Re: O2 sources & fusion byproducts
Re: Heat Tolerance in Starships
Re: Water on Starships
Imperial Warrants

<hr><hr>----------

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 01:36:29 -0500
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #804

Hans wrote: 
> That's like saying that after the Barbary Pirates secured Washington they
> could go after the rest of the American cities. First they have to be
> suicidally foolish enough to try. Then they have to be insanely lucky
> enough to succeed. And then they have to KEEP the control...

I suppose that if you the Vargrs invading the Corridor were just a bunch of
ragtag bands of corsairs you would be correct.  However, the forces that
invaded Corridor were those of intersteller goverments and were very capable
of going after weakly defended high population worlds.  (this of course is a
geuss as none of use seem to really know what assets of the various Vargr
state were, but I does support the exisiting background)  This sort of action
is a bit unusuale for the Vargr but not unheard of.  During the Fifth
frontier war two Vargr fleets invaded to Imperium and again in 1113 the
Imperium had to fend off several Vargr fleets.  Also keep in mind that when
the Corridor fleet was sent to Zarushagar, local athorities said that the
remaing scattered reservers would be sufficient to defend the sector.  They
may have only been expecting to deal with ragtag corsair bands.  One other
factor that could work in the Vargr's favor is that whe Corridor sector had
one of the strongest fleets in the Imperium.  This could have lead to the
member worlds in the sector developing a laxed attitude toward maintaining
planetary defenses.


Chris Cox
Investment banking galley slave in New York City
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 01:01:29 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: gone

Peter J. Miller writes:

>Really!  I misssed this as well!  I can't believe it!  I wonder if we'll be
>seeing a Star Trek Traveller supplement....:(

   The first supplement will be entitled "Bajor".  It will cover the
Deep Space Nine setting, and will introduce warp drive and a number of
other technologies not covered in FF&S or T4.  Price is projected to be
$39.95 and will include a number of stills from the DS9 TV series.

>Anything else happen in regards to this takeover?

   Yes.  If you send an e-mail to Paramount at webmaster@paramount.com,
and put in the subject line the word "Traveller", they will have one of
their publicity people e-mail an official press release.  I'd post it
here, but it is a rather large file.

Regards,

Harold

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 01:10:20 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: FYI - It Could Be Worse

The following is a copy of Paramount's copyright policy regarding their
Web site.  It's apparent that Paramount spent more time listening to
their lawyers than they spent listening to people who are knowledgeable
of Web culture or the fans of their shows and movies.

The sneakiest thing about this piece of legalese is that the link to the
page that contains it is at the bottom of the page, in the smallest font
they could find.  Those of you who have Web access should check it out
at http://startrek.msn.com/, and then e-mail Paramount to inform them
that since you can't abide by their rules, you will no longer be
visiting their site.

Thank you Imperium Games and Marc Miller for a copyright policy that
makes sense, and one that doesn't require a course in legal terminology
to comprehend it.

- <hr><hr>-------------=
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<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 07:40:44 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: 21st Century History

On Tue, 31 Dec 1996 23:31:06 -0500, you wrote:

> and there, and the folks with the Cray computers would eventually =
figure
> out what they mean.

Maybe not... SGI bought out Cray earlier last year... Oooww!

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 03:14:16 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Interstellar economics (long)

In a message dated 97-01-01 17:27:13 EST, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Who's paying them, and with
>  >what? Lucan isn't giving them imperial credits anymore. Who is, and where
>  >are they claiming to get whatever they are paying with?
>  
>  The same people who have been paying them all along; their fellow
citizens.
>  


Does this sound remarkably like deficit spending to anyone else out there?
 Don't misunderstand me, I am not (remotely) an economist, but I recall
having  a discussion with an Econ professor in college that went something
like this:

Professor: "...and that is where budget deficit comes from."
Me:  "So, you're saying the government owes their suppliers?"
Prof:  "That's correct."
Me:  "And these suppliers are US corporations?"
Prof:  "Yes."
Me:  "And the government owes more money than it collects?"
Prof:  "Precisely."
Me:  "But isn't the government providing services back to the suppliers,
like, say, defense?"
Prof: "Well, sure."
Me:  "So the National Debt is owed to no onage dated 97-01-01 17:27:13 EST,e but OURSELVES?!?"
Prof:  "Indeed."
Me:  "So what do the suppliers gain by foreclosing on the debt?"
Prof:  "Nothing.  In fact they lose many government services."
Me (by now incredulous):  "So the only way the US government will actually go
broke is if their suppliers (of services, or cash in the form of bonds) all
demand payment, despite the negative impact that has on EVERYONE?!?"
Prof:  "Mm-hmm."
Me:  "And how likely is that?"
Prof:  "Not very, in my opinion."

OK, I'm oversimplifying.  But do you see the logic gap inherent to this
situation?  The shipyards will likely accept payment of the currency of
Mikesh, as long as their creditors continue to accept it, which they are
likely to do, so long as *their* creditors continue to accept it, and so on.
 Money, as near as I can figure, is a myth (at least once you're off the gold
standard, or whatever passes for it in the 45th century).  If I give Hans a
one dollar note, he will accept it, if he believes in good faith he can
exchange it for one dollar's worth of goods and services.  Same goes for
whoever he exchanges it with.  And if that person can use it to pay one
dollar's worth of taxes, so much the better.  The only problem arises if a
creditor, or (God forbid) the government, refuses to exchange that one dollar
note for about a dollar's worth of stuff.  Then all Hell breaks loose.  And
let's not even begin to talk about the nationalization of the shipyards!
 Trust me, Mikesh's credits, at least on Mikesh, are worth about as much as
Lucan's credits, and the building will go on.


Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, Ignorance."--- Socrates

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 03:14:26 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Why the Aztecs lost

In a message dated 97-01-01 18:44:19 EST, Craig Berry wrote:

> They weren't?  Let's examine the evidence:
>  
>    Mexica                          Brits
<Details snipped for purposes of length>

ROTFLMAO!!!

Bravo, good sir.


Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, Ignorance."--- Socrates

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 10:17:06 +0100
From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Subject: The Armor Value in T4

I'm currently designing some ships, using FF&S and T4 QSSD. I want to 
make the starshipprofile for a fighter with 120 in Armor value (FF&S).
I use the rules outlined in a document D.Golden sent to G.Porter a 
long time ago. I converted the AV using the chart giving me 4. But this 
seems rather low compared to the Patrol Cruiser and other ships.

Am I suppose to multiply by 10 after using the conversionchart?

Thanks for any help.

- -- 
Tommy Grav 
Email: tommyg@ifi.uio.no
WWW-Page: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html
"Sooner or later the worst set of circumstances are bound to occur."

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 10:57:13 +0100
From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Warfare and economics

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
 
> Only if losing those trucks will destroy your tank-building capacity. But
> a high-population world can build ships without any help from outside.
> 

But shifting your efforts to building tanks is not easy on a high
population 
world. As fewer and fewer goods arraive the world, there will be
incrisingly 
harder to shift your efforts to supplement you defenses. The general 
population is screaming for their usual goods and any factory will at
best
be reluctant to start building military equipment. It is in the civilian
part of the world that there is money to be gained. And in the short run 
(which most factoryowners today and in the future is concerned about) it
is
economics that's important.


- -- 
Tommy Grav 
Email: tommyg@ifi.uio.no
WWW-Page: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html
"Sooner or later the worst set of circumstances are bound to occur."

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 20:48:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Why the Aztecs Lost (was: Why the Vilani lost)

In mail you write:

>> In the case of religion, most Aztecs prefered to offer sacrifice than be
>> offered up as sacrifice.
>
> Again, we run into a cultural barrier here.  For the Aztec warrior caste
> (and this includes both the Mexica and most of their enemies), sacrifice
> was the outcome of being captured live on the battlefield -- *and this was
> considered a VERY desirable fate!*  Late in the 15th century, there's some
> evidence that the Mexica began conducting unprecedented mass sacrifices
> for political terror purposes, but in the main, sacrifical victims went
> willingly.  This strains credulity for most people -- but remember, our
> own European cultural history venerates Christian martyrs, many of whom
> were complicit in their own sacrifices.

A very good example of just *how* alien the various meso-american
cultures were is the ritualized game involving a rubber ball and two
teams on a court. It is somewhat like basketball.

It used to be stated that the losing team was sacrificed. But finally
the evidence became overwhelming enough to get past Western cultural
preconceptions. It was the *winning* team that was sacrificed.

That tends to show that their attitude towards being sacrificed was
quite different than *our* attitude.

The Aztec and Mayan cultures were *far* more alien than any of the
aliens in Traveller. Expecting them to react the way we would is silly.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 20:56:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: O2 sources & fusion byproducts

In mail you write:

>><snip>
>>The temps required for fusing heavier elements so up *very* fast. And
>>the energy output drops pretty fast.
>>
>>Consider: The basic reaction we are assuming is 4 H(1) -> He(4) + energy.
>>That liberates something like .1% of the mass as energy. Now if we go
>>farther and generate oxygen from the helium (by whatever path), the
>>reaction for *that* is:
>>       4 He(4) -> O(16) + energy
>>Compare the mass of 4 helium atoms and one oxygen atom and you'll find
>>that the mass difference is *really* small. And if you want to squeeze
>>all the energy you possibly can out, you keep fusing things until you
>>hit iron. Fe(56) is *the* most stable nuclear configuration. You can't
>>get energy out of it by fusion *or* by fission.
>
> This leads to a question I have been contemplating for some months now.
> Fusion powerplants have been sucking up hydrogen, fusing it and generating
> energy, but I have not yet seen any rules or guidelines for what happens to
> the helium produced.

You simply seperate it (quite easy) and vent it to space. 

> Or as Leonard has noted, any of the other elements, up
> to iron, which has a net energy loss to fuse.

The reactor would have to be specially designed to be *able* to produce
the heavier nuclei. A reactor designed to convert hydrogen to helium is
about as useful for fusing helium to heavier elements as your charcoal
barbecue is for steel smelting.

> Given the hydrogen intake, the
> tech level at which is built, and other such considerations, should our
> engineers be looking for somewhere or somemeans of flushing these fusion
> resistant heavy nuclei out of the plasma? Could this be used to justify that
> week in port between jumps? Could a plasma heavily contaminated with heavy
> nuclei fusion by products contribute to mis jumps, or other unpleasant
> accidents?

See above. There *aren't* any "heavy nuclei" produced.

> What about the safety constraints? Heavy nuclei from a fusion
> reactor have no electrons, so they are functionally the same material that
> comes out the business end of a CPAWS. Maybe not travelling as fast, but
> potentially as dangerous?

Sorry, but the plasma is electrically *neutral*. Plasma consists of
nuclei *and* electrons. The temp is so high that they don't "bond" to
each other, they just form a mixed cloud.

To produce one megajoule, you need to convert 11 *nanograms* of matter
into energy (E=M*c^2). Given that fusion of hydrogen to helium only
converts about .1% of the mass to energy, that means you need about 11
*micrograms* of hydrogen converted to helium to get a megajoule of energy.

So for a one megawatt powerplant produces 11 *micrograms* of helium
every second. Or about 960 grams a day. A one *gigawatt* plant produces
a thousand times as much. Still not a big problem to get rid of.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 21:11:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Heat Tolerance in Starships

In mail, jamesd@spirit.com.au writes:

>   In designing an adventure based close to a star, I came up with a question:
>
>   At what temperature will a 'normal' starship's environmental controls
> break down? At what temperature will the hull start to react to the heat?

It's not a matter of *temperature*. It's a matter of *heat flux*. The
ship absorbs x% of the energy falling uupon it and reflects the rest.
To keep the ship at a comfortable temperature, it needs to be able to
*radiate* the absorbed energy *plus* any "waste" energy from activities
inside the ship.

So the critical factor is how much energy per unit time the ships
systems can get rid of via the radiators of the side of the ship facing
away from the star. you take that value, subtract the waste energy
generated inside the ship, and the result is the amount of extra energy
the ship can handle. If more energy than that is absorbed, then the
ship will retain the extra energy, raising the internal temperature
until the ship reaches equilibrium (by causing the *non* radiator parts
of the ship to radiate enough heat to make up the difference).

But while it *is* possible to calculate the temp rise inside the ship
when there's more incoming energy than the systems can handle, it's not
really necessary to do so. Once you hit the point where the ship is
getting more energy than the systems can get rid of, you are in
trouble. And it gets worse rapidly as the excess heat input increases
(ie as you get closer to the star).

You can reduce the percentage of incoming energy that gets absorbed by
making the ship more reflective. Just remember that doing so also makes
it harder to get rid of heat. So unless you can guarantee that you'll
*always* have the same side towards the star, reflective treatments
have limits.

The above applies to a ship in space. If it is in an atmosphere, or on
a planetary (or even asteroid) surface things get more complicated. 

ps. The *real* problem is that Traveller ignores the fact that ships
have to get rid of excess heat. So even at large distances from a star
Traveller ships would in reality fry in their own waste heat. So since
the rules ignore theromdynamics, we are stuck with not being able to
deal with your sort of situation as the required rules are missing, and
adding them would make all existing ships unusable.

Without going into details, let's just say that all existing ship
design systems do the equivalent of designing an automobile with no
radiator or fan for the engine... so trying to figure out how long the
car would last in the desert is reduced to a bunch of handwaving
because the damn thing can't work even in the arctic! :-(

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:22:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Water on Starships

In mail you write:

> Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:18:11 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>> I guess I dont' think, given how well powered they are, that
>>> starships are that sensitive to weight distribution.  Also,
>>> they can already pump liquid hydrogen around but even this
>>> seems pretty crude for a starship that has artificial gravity.
>
>>Simple. Regardless of things like artificial gravity, if you "push" on
>>the ship somewhere, it will pivot around its "center of gravity (which
>>is really the "center of mass distribution").
>
> [Stuff about translational and rotational thruster deleted.]
>
> Obviously, if the ship has a net force not directed through
> the center of gravity it is going to start to rotate.  However,
> a starship in traveller has thrusters which it can use to
> control such rotation (they don't need to be separate
> for the thrusters that provide thrust, ie your rotational
> and translational thrusters).  Pumping water is a very slow
> and crude way of mainting a flying object in a level position
> (this is why airplanes don't do it).

I'm not talking about using pumping water for *dynamic* balance. I'm
talking about using it for *static* balance. And as for airplanes, I
suggest that you have a talk with a pilot who is rated for large
multi-engine planes. He'll inform you of the importance of being able
to pump fuel between tanks to keep the plane properly "trimmed" as it
uses fuel.

>>With rotational thrusters (ones designed to rotate the ship about one
>>of its axes) if the thrusts aren't balanced about the CG you wind up
>>with rotation that you don't want (ie you do a burn to rotate the ship
>>90 degrees, and then as it swings thru 45 degrees you do a reverse burn
>>to stop the rotation. If the thrusters aren't balanced, instead of
>>stopping at 90, you'll wind up with the ship still rotating).
>
> Well no.  Rotation is caused by applying thrust around the center
> of gravity.  If you want to rotate them you apply sufficient
> thrust for sufficient time to ge the rotation you want.  If you
> don't want rotation you apply your thrust through the center
> of gravity (and if some weight pushes that off you adjust the
> thrust).

You *completely* missed my point. It's *much* more efficient to use
*paired* thrusters for rotation. You *can* do it with a single off
center force, but it's easier to work with paired forces (equal but
opposite moment arms).

Single thruster:

        <------------+----------------<       ship
           ^         CG
         thrust

paired thrusters:
                             thrust
                                V
       <------------+----------------<		ship
          ^         cg
        thrust

You will note that every spaceship built so far uses paired thrusters
for rotation. :-)

> This is how a helicoptor works and it doesn't need
> to pump water around (and would find such an approach inadequate
> if it tried it).

A helicopter is a considerable different situation. For one thing, the
tail rotor is used to *counteract* the torque from the main rotor.

>>Also, you put extra stress on the ship's structure if the thrusts
>>aren't balanced. And the main drive's thrust had *better* be pointed
>>thru the CG or the ship will spin out of control like a pinwheel!
>
> This is why you control it.  If you can't control your thrust
> you aren't going to go where you want, no matter how much water
> you pump around.

Sure, you can gimbak main engines. But any intelligent engineer is
going to set up a ship so that you have a way of balancing off center
loads by moving the CG back to the centerline. 

Why? Because if you don't, you have the problem of having the engines
pointing to one side to thrust "straight". Which means that you no
longer have symettrical manueverability capacity. That is, the limits
ob pivoting (or otherwise directing) the main drive are symettrical. So
if you have a situation where "straight ahead" is *not* in the center
of the arc, your turn capability is very unbalanced (ie you can turn
*very* different amounts to port and starboard). 

>>Sure you can adjust thrusters to some extent. But that extent is
>>limited.  More importantly, you *can't* adjust the main drive very much.
>>*Amount* of thrust, yes, *direction*, no.
>
> Um no.  A Traveller ship can produce enough thrust perpendicular
> to the main axis to be able to fly horizonally.

Only if you believe DGP's Starship Operators Manual. 

>>And it's a lot cheaper to
>>redistribute the mass on the ship than to burn extra fuel in the
>>thrusters!
>
> No it isn't.  From harrier jump jets to helicopters to tilt
> engine aircraft to saturn rockets; none of them try and move
> mass rather than redirect thrust.  There are too many factors
> involved (from mass changes to wind factors) and it's just
> too slow.

Again, you are talking *dynamic* balancing, while I am talking *static*
balancing. Short term changes arer handled by thrusters. But things
like cargo that just *can't* be loaded in a balanced manner are going
to require other sorts of adjustments.

Cargo aircraft *require* loads to be balanced. And they *do* pump fuel
around to *keep* the balance.

If the nav computer notices that there's an imbalance that seems to
persist, on a plane it can adjust trim tabs and use aerodynamics, it
can also redistribute mass by pumping fuel. On a ship their isn't any
air to supply aerodynamic forces. So it has to use thrusters or
redistribute mass. If the imbalance is continuing, then redistributing
mass is the proper response. And water is both denser, and easier to
deal with than LH2. Though I'm sure that pumping fuel between tanks
will be used.

>>So you need to be able to keep nass distribution of the ship balanced
>>so that the CG *stays* where it is supposed to be.
>
> A ship with the kind of thrust a Traveller ship (and hence any
> ship with VTOL capability) isn't going to be as sensitive to
> mass balance as you indicate it is.

Bull. 

>>Just remember, it's all a matter of moment arms and moments of inertia.
>>And they have to balance or bad things happen, regardless of tech level.
>
> And all those things need to be controlled on a time scale of
> fractions of a second.  That is why the Space shuttle, Harrier
> Jump jets, helicoptors, etc. all use thrust control.  Moving
> water around just isn't fast enough.

I'll bet you that the Shuttle's loads are *very* carefully calculated
to balance the load. And since the loads are *not* moved around while
the main engines are in use, that makes it a *considerably* different
situation than a Traveller ship where loads *will* be shifted while
under thrust (things like launching missiles for instance).

You talk about fractions of a second. I'm talking about minutes and
hours. Fractions of a second require thrusters for compensation.
Corrections that will last minutes and hours are better dealt with by
shifting mass. 

Which makes more sense:
1. burning thrusters and/or stressing engine gimbals by applying
   off center forces for *hours*
2. Using #1 only until you can shift some mass to alleviate the need
   for off center forces

I submit that any engineer worth his pay will choose #2.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Wed,  1 Jan 1997 12:35:49 -0500
From: "Christopher Weuve" <chrisweuve@usa.net>
Subject: Imperial Warrants

- --part_AEF00AA5000F091A00000002
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Disposition: Inline

While going through the tremendous backlog of TML mail I have stored, I found 
Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk> saying:
> ...an Imperial Warrant gives you effectively all the powers of the 
> Emperor, with the important difference being that it is in the name of 
> the Emperor, rather than being simply the word and deed of the 
> Emperor.  Whenever a noble acts independently, s/he had better be 
> damn sure that they get it right, because the next person up the 
> chain will act to stop you without hesitation or restraint (if they 
> are any good.) 

There is a series of books called _Exordium_ by Dave Trowbridge and Sherwood 
Smith.  In it the <Emperor-equivalent> has secretly given certain trusted 
Imperial nobles one-use vetos.  Nobles so empowered are called the "<can't 
think of it> Covert", as opposed to those who have revealed themselves by 
using their veto, the "<can't think of it> Overt".  All the computers in the 
<Imperium-equivalent> have been programmed to immediately lock out everyone 
else (locally) at the command of one of these nobles.

In general, this is the most Traveller-esque series I have ever read, and I 
can't recommend them highly enough.  More info is available on Trowbridge's 
homepage, http://www.well.com/user/davetrow/.

- --Chris Weuve
caw@wizard.net (h)    caw@intercon.com (w/day)    chrisweuve@usa.net (perm) 
- <hr><hr>----------------
"Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the 
things I cannot, and a great big bag of money."  [author unknown]

- --part_AEF00AA5000F091A00000002--

<hr>

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #806
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, January 2 1997      Volume 1996 : Number 807



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Prices of T4 Books - The Publishers' View
Low Tech Ship Maintenance
Cheap Satellite Comms for Low Tech Countries
Re: FYI - It Could Be Worse
Re: Why the Aztecs Lost (was: Why the Vilani lost)
Re: 21st Century History
RE: Ship Designs
Re: gone
Pirates and leaders and wealth (Oh my!)  (long)
Re: Vargr invaders (long)
Re: Interstellar economics
Re: Interstellar economics
Re: Vargr invaders (long)
Starship design SNAFU's

<hr><hr>----------

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 13:55:47 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Prices of T4 Books - The Publishers' View

Aaaaargh. Cracks ice off fingers (needless to say the heaters at work have
been off over Christmas). Well, I hope you all had a good Xmas and I wish
everyone on the TML a happy 1997. I had flu all Xmas (waits for cries of
sympathy). :-(

Anyway, I thought I'd better reply to Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
who asked about T4 prices:

>I really wonder what makes them think that Traveller has even a decent
>chance to survive at such high prices.  You get complete roleplaying games
>at least twice (if not three times) as large as that price...

I'd like to say that until Traveller becomes really big, you won't get the
margins on the print runs, but I know that's not the case because I know how
cheaply some of the T4 stuff was printed. Initial costs for each book (from
design through to final layout) DO make a difference, though, being about
$5000 a time by my understanding. Add a couple of $ per book for printing.
Allow that the end retailers take 1/3 the cover price and distributors
another 1/3. Your $20 book becomes say $8 to IG. Remove printing, leaves $6.
Run off 10,000 copies, and your initial costs (don't forget royalties)
reduce this probably to $3-5? And IG still has to pay for their own office,
plus all the overheads of free copies for review, for helpers, as
compensation for previous late issues...

It ain't a bed of roses out there in the world of publishing, unless you're
printing a lot of books and have a guaranteed market. The Long Way Home cost
me so much to print that I just _can't_ afford to distribute it through the
usual channels; taking off 2/3 of the cover price, even the 11.99 charged to
non-BITS members, would leave me about 4 pounds. Take off my _basic_
printing costs, without paying a penny for design, layout, etc. to the
authors, and I'm already nearly 4 pounds IN DEBT PER COPY. Okay, so that's
an extreme case where I wanted a colour cover for a very short print run and
had to move heaven and earth to get it...

Andy :-)
Recipient of the 1996 Award for Least Criticised Traveller Product of the Year

To all those other authors producing Web Pages and Fanzines, The Traveller
Chronicle, etc. let's make sure we make Traveller a success this year!

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 14:25:55 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Low Tech Ship Maintenance

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) ended his comments about Routine
Maintenance:

>One the other hand, with a TL-9 ship, you can get the work done almost
>anywhere, but you may get a few strange looks. "You're flying a *what*?!"

And hence one gets the cliched line from Star Wars: "You came in *that*?
You're braver than I thought!"

Andy :-)

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 14:25:58 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Cheap Satellite Comms for Low Tech Countries

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) says:

>Better recheck the real world. Most of Africa, and a lot of Asia is
>*skipping* "phone lines" and going straight to cellular phones with

Yup. There _are_ a lot of problems with satellite phones - Wireless Local
Loop (i.e. like mobiles but the mobiles aren't mobile; each house etc. has a
fixed radio link to the base station) is also a strong contender.

However, later on you say:

>visitors if the place has a permanent port.  Selling phones and
>batteries (or small solar panels) to natives is then a matter of "why
>not"? It'll bring in some cash, and won't hurt the high tech folks.

Whoa! IISS steps in and immediately says "No can do! That sort of
communications revolution to the mediaeval or wild west societies you
mentioned would DRASTICALLY change the entire evolution of a low tech'
world." If the IISS really did perform any sort of moderation of
technological development on low tech' worlds (as they do in my games) then
you wouldn't get this sort of drastic technology mix.

Again, though, this comes down to whether you regard low TL as being
mediaeval society or just a high tech society with very little manufacturing
ability (Ducks as argument over meaning of TL start up again).

Andy :-)

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 09:09:46 -0500 (EST)
From: athol-brose <cinnamon@one.net>
Subject: Re: FYI - It Could Be Worse

On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Harold D. Hale wrote:
> The sneakiest thing about this piece of legalese is that the link to the
> page that contains it is at the bottom of the page, in the smallest font
> they could find.  Those of you who have Web access should check it out
> at http://startrek.msn.com/, and then e-mail Paramount to inform them
> that since you can't abide by their rules, you will no longer be
> visiting their site.

[policy snipped]

And just what is wrong with these terms of use? You can't pass the files,
images or sounds around, nor can you modify them and then do so, you
can't flame on their message boards, and they're not responsible if
something damages your computer, and if you send them a submission that
they insist they don't want and won't accept, you give it to them -- so
that you can't sue them for coming up with something similar later.

It may just be me, but NONE of this is unreasonable, and none of it is
especially draconian, either. Submissions becoming the propery of
Paramount is a method of covering their butts -- because, even after they
say they don't want submissions and won't look at them, if someone sent
one they could later sue. (This is a real concern, and why, f'r'instance,
we have rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated, where story ideas are verboten
- - so that noone will try to do the same to Babylonian.)

athol-brose -- cinnamon@one.net -- http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon/

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 11:05:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Why the Aztecs Lost (was: Why the Vilani lost)

Hi.

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> A very good example of just *how* alien the various meso-american
> cultures were is the ritualized game involving a rubber ball and two
> teams on a court. It is somewhat like basketball.

> It used to be stated that the losing team was sacrificed. But finally
> the evidence became overwhelming enough to get past Western cultural
> preconceptions. It was the *winning* team that was sacrificed.

Gosh, no wonder these games took weeks to resolve. It was probably DAYS
before anyone even scored a point!

- -Rob

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 10:10:43 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: 21st Century History

> So given the peak velocity of 20% of c, and the trip duration of 2000
> years, the trip *must* be between 200 and 400 light years (60 to 125
> parsecs). That's the way the universe works.
>
> So if the trip length is shorter, then either the trip time or the peak
> velocity is incorrect. Another goof for GDW?

Leonard, don't blame GDW, blame me.  I calculated the 20% of cee as a 
mean velocity for the entire trip, based on 500 ly range and 2500 year
flight time; this is from the sector maps and from the arrival date in
the 4510s given by TCS and half of Regency Sourcebook (a AD 3888 date 
is given in MegaTraveller, but let's just call that a typo).  Since we 
don't know how fast the ships accelerated, we don't know the *actual* 
top speed achieved.  Of course, I could have stated this better in my
timeline, but I didn't think it would be a bone of contention.  The 
reason I gave any figure at all was to give the list a *rough* idea of
the STL speeds in question.

"Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net> wrote:

>    Or maybe, <Harold breaks out the latest and greatest in Traveller
> conspiracy theories> the Terrans already knew that there was a vast
> alien empire out there and the ESA therefore launched the mission as a
> hedge against human extinction in case this alien empire decided to
> attack Earth.

Well, I'm sure that's one good reason why nobody ever tried to recall
the mission; that, and the difficulty in trying to stop a STL starship
enroute.  :)  

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>

<hr>

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 15:04:25 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Subject: RE: Ship Designs

- ----------
From: 	jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com[SMTP:jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com]

  These are going to seem like dumb questions I'm sure, but...

  When working on the accommodations for crew and passengers:

  1. Does one use the entire given volumes for the stateroom/
     bunk, or does one split it between the staterooms and the
     common areas (Lounges, Promenades, Dining Salons, etc.)?

  2. If the latter, what's the canonical source for this, and
     what's the ratio (I can't find it in either FFS or
     Starships)?

  3. Are corridors included in the "common" allocation, or is
     this a separate allocation (using up some of the 10-20%
     slop volume)?  Does one also include corridors in the
     volume allocation for other kinds of rooms?  Again, what
     ratio?

I think it is in the Classic Traveller books that discusses starship 
layouts.  Paraphrasing-
Part of the space allotted for staterooms and such is considered used 
for common areas, freshers and such.  Corridors are also included in 
the 10-20% allocation.  This would account for the crew lounge on the 
Scout ship but larger, more elaborate lounges like on the Safari ship 
are added extra.  I don't ever recall seeing an actual ratio.  It was 
just left up to judgement.

  4. Does one include the 'fresher in the allocation for the
     stateroom, or is this a separate (0.5td) allocation?
I'd assume this would also be considered in the allocation for the 
stateroom.

  5. Does anyone have a VISIO 4.0 stencil set for starships?
     The OFFICE stencil is good for _some_ of the stuff, but not
     all of it, and I don't have a HOME stencil which might
     contain most of what OFFICE is missing.

Let me know if you do find the stencil set.  I would like to try it as 
well.  The home stencil does contain some details i.e. beds and 
kitchen stuff.

  6. What is the personal luggage allocation per crew, command,
     high passenger, and low passenger?

From memory, High passengers get a ton, Middle get half, and Low get 
either 100 or 250kg.
Don't recall anything for crew though.

Jeff Zeitlin 
                                     jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 97 18:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: gone

In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970101091653.16024C-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

<< >  The 27th started out with an announcement that Paramount Pictures had
> purchased Sweetpea Entertainment, thus Paramount now owns IG and the
> rights to produce Traveller material.  Everyone expressed shock and
> general concern.

Nice summary, but you forgot to mention the *FREE PROSTHETIC POINTY EARS* 
each member of the TML (soon to be STML) will be receiving, if they 
choose to stay. >>

I think that should be "FREE PROSTHETIC POINTY EARS(TM)" and "STML(TM)".

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 19:15:49 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Pirates and leaders and wealth (Oh my!)  (long)

I suppose I really should chop this posting up in four or five smaller
ones with the appropiate headings, but I'm feeling lazy today. Hope you'll
forgive me. I'll do better tomorrow.

Eris Reddoch writes:
>A smart Vargr leader would have *protected* a rich world from raids from
>other Vargr in exchange for it's fealty to him.  If the Vargr work it right
>the humans would *invite* him in.  Why should the humans really care *who*
>it is that protects their world and insures safety of interstellar trade?
> 
>The Vargr win by being HERD DOGS, not attack dogs.

IF inviting a Vargr to protect them was the only alternative then, yes, a
world might accept his protection. Otherwise no. If you were a human in
Corridor ca. 1118 and had a choice between trusting a Vargr and relying
on your own resources, what would you prefer? Plus, it would be a very 
rare Vargr leader; the basic Vargr motivation is plunder.

>On 01/02/97 at 12:38 AM,  Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> said:
> 
>>That's like saying that after the Barbary Pirates secured Washington they
>>could go after the rest of the American cities. First they have to be
>>suicidally foolish enough to try. Then they have to be insanely lucky
>>enough to succeed. And then they have to KEEP the control...
> 
>During what time period?  If you're talking Washington, circa 1795, then
>it's not that unreasonable. <g>

I'm going to treat that remark with the contempt it deserves. ;-)

>>Actually, the scenario of the Barbary pirates invading America is a
>>pretty good parallel to how plausible the Vargr invasions of Corridor
>>is...
> 
>I think it's more like Mexico invading the US after the third world war in
>TK2k.  Hum, actually more like Cuba invading Florida after WWIII.  <g>

Well, since I can't know just how much strength you imagine the US would
have after WWIII, I can't agree or disagree. I imagine it would be like
Cuban bandits invading the US because the army and navy was gone and 
"only" the Coast Guard, National Guard, and Police was left... completely
intact.

>You are right though, under normal circumstances the Vargr couldn't have
>succeeded in taking or holding the sector.  For the Vargr to control
>Corridor longterm they would have needed some very special circumstances. 
>I think I've presented a plausible scenerio in another post.

Well, I think those circumstances are not special enough. And they 
completely a factor that is wrongly dismissed: The forces of the Domain of 
Deneb. See elsewhere for more on this.

Mused <marz@hotstar.net> writes:
>In Vilani and Vargr, (IIRC) there was mention of the development of a 
>virtual vargr (pseudo-reality) that was the epitome of the perfect vargr 
>leader. 

Yes, he's mentioned in _Rebellion_. 

>"He" could have easily united a number of bands to knock off the ill 
>prepared Imperials ("what do we have to fear from the doggies? They 
>never unite for any reason") 

No, because he is not a leader in that sense. He dosen't lead, he points.
He promotes anti-Imperial feeling that makes more Vargr corsairs attack
the Imperium than would otherwise be the case, but as for concerted
action, the Vargr are limited to their usual mundane leaders.

>Then after the Imperial bases are off balance and in Vargr hands, and the 
>Vargr begin to use the imperial shipyards. 

The useful shipyards are on the high-population planets.

>Now the imperials have a real problem...they no longer have the strength to 
>push the Vargr out, but the vargr no longer have the strength to take out 
>the human resistance, and the war becomes one of low level raiding.

Again, this ignores both the high-population worlds in Corridor itself and
the help that the Domain can provide.

Eris Reddoch:
>What you say makes sense, but I actually think it's more feudal than you
>think.  The way it works on paper, the way it really workds, and the
>legality of the way it is supposed to work don't have to match, you know. 

True enough. You may be right. I'm just going by what information I have. 
Traveller has a long history of reinterpretation of percieved truths.

>>(Actually, what the chart shows is that the dukes give military orders
>>and the Admiralty provide noble supervision. I assume that the two
>>signature explanations have been mixed up; I certainly find it easier to
>>believe that noble supervision is provided by nobles and military orders
>>come from military officers, than the other way around, don't you?)
> 
>Sure would make more sense wouldn't it.  <g>  OTOH, perhaps the Nobles *do*
>give the orders and the Admiralty is to provide supervision of the nobles...

Ah! "nobel supervision" mening "supervision OF nobles" instead of "super-
vision BY nobles". I'll admit I never thought of that. But I still think
my interpretation is correct, since we have an example of how things work
in the interactions of Admiral Santanocheev and Duke Norris during 5FW.

>The Fleet didn't stay together once Cleon was ?assassinated?, in fact it
>came apart much too easily for there to have been a strong central control. 
>It had to have been internally very fragmented even before the Rebellion
>began.  I think the fragments were Noble sized chunks, no matter what the
>offical Order of Battle indicated.

I think it was fleet sized chunks, given that the "Emperors of the Flag"
mostly became Emperors by right of fleet control. And most of them were
admirals.

Chris Cox writes:
>Hans wrote a bunch a stuff about him buying me a beer despite the fact the
>neither of us or the beers leaves our countries. ending with:
>> If there's no cargo transfer between two systems, no actual wealth can be
>> transferred (Except knowledge, which is a special case).
> 
>Actually wealth was transfered.  You spent time earning the beer that you
>bought for whoever visited Denmark.  You transferred wealth to this person. 
>This person had earlier bought me a beer transfering wealth to me.  Bottom
>line, you're poorer and I'm richer.  

But only because said person came over here. There's still a physical
transfer involved.

>For some reason you seem to think that wealth is only material resources.  
>It isn't, wealth is resources both material and intangible.  

Always excepting knowledge, which is a special case, all wealth is material
(Well, I suppose I have to except sentimental values too). Otherwise, 
intangible wealth is only worth anything to the extent that the posessor
expects to be able to turn it into material wealth some day. (I include
services in "material wealth" in this context).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:35:53 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Vargr invaders (long)

Chris Cox writes:
>Hans wrote: 
>>That's like saying that after the Barbary Pirates secured Washington they
>>could go after the rest of the American cities. First they have to be
>>suicidally foolish enough to try. Then they have to be insanely lucky
>>enough to succeed. And then they have to KEEP the control...
> 
>I suppose that if you the Vargrs invading the Corridor were just a bunch of
>ragtag bands of corsairs you would be correct.  However, the forces that
>invaded Corridor were those of intersteller goverments and were very capable
>of going after weakly defended high population worlds. (this of course is a
>guess as none of use seem to really know what assets of the various Vargr
>state were, but I does support the exisiting background)  

Well, I'm glad we finally got the Vargr corsairs dismissed as the conquerors
of Corridor. That's a start, at least. As for Vargr interstellar governments,
we can certainly make some educated guesses about their resources and 
motivations. First you say that they'd want to invade Corridor in the first 
place. Well, I could give you some arguments about that, given that any 
really big and powerful Vargr government must inevitably be struggling
against  those social forces that are always trying to force Vargr societies
apart, but I'll give you that one. Perhaps the inspiring words of Oekhsos
the Leader is enough to get them going; or just an uncommonly high optimism
or lack of foresight in the leadership. So, OK. But next you say that they
are very capable of going after weakly defended high population worlds. But
my whole point is that those worlds are NOT weakly defended. Those planetary
defenses that cannot be sent away with the Corridor fleets amounts to more
than 50% of the total military spending. And most of this is at higher TLs
than the Vargr have. One of the worlds is a TL _16_ world with 9 billion
inhabitants, there's two TL 15 worlds with respectively 20 billion and 8 
billion inhabitants, and three TL 14 worlds with 60, 8, and 7 billion
inhabitants. And under CT combat rules TL 15 ships have a 5 to 1 advantage
over TL 13 ships and TL 14 ships a 3 to 2 advantage. I don't know how much 
of an advantage TL 16 ships have, but my guess would be 10 to 1. And those
Vargr governments can't use their full strength. They _have_ to keep something
back to defend themselves against their Vargr neighbors. 

>This sort of action is a bit unusuale for the Vargr but not unheard of.  
>During the Fifth frontier war two Vargr fleets invaded to Imperium and 
>again in 1113 the Imperium had to fend off several Vargr fleets.

Well, a fleet is quite a big thing. If the Vargr version is roughly 
equivalent to an Imperial fleet it is something like 3 TCr Squadrons. But 
a world like Mikesh would be defended by the equivalent of 180-200 TCr 
squadrons if we go by TCS straight rules or by 36-40 of them if we go by 
analogy with what we know of the regular Imperial forces. That's TWELVE TO
THIRTEEN Vargr fleets! To achieve parity with them the Vargr would have to 
assemble 18-20 fleets of their own. To defeat them quickly without suffering 
crippling losses they'd need about three to one odds. That's 54-60 fleets. 
And if they _don't_ defeat them quickly, Mikesh will be able to reactivate 
more and more mothballed ships and build more and more new ones as time goes 
by. Durima (20 billion TL 15) and Kaasu (9 billion TL 16) actually require 
about half as much again to defeat.

>Also keep in mind that when the Corridor fleet was sent to Zarushagar, local 
>authorities said that the remaing scattered reserves would be sufficient to 
>defend the sector.

They did? That means that Lucan _didn't_ strip Corridor completely of jump-
capable ships as we've been assuming. That makes things even worse for the
Vargr.

>They may have only been expecting to deal with ragtag corsair bands.  

Yes, it's clear that whatever was left behind would be unable to deal with
the load of Vargrs that did come. I've never said that the Vargr couldn't
invade Corridor. I just think they will be unable to "devour" it, much less
digest it.

>One other factor that could work in the Vargr's favor is that whe Corridor 
>sector had one of the strongest fleets in the Imperium.  This could have 
>lead to the member worlds in the sector developing a laxed attitude toward 
>maintaining planetary defenses.

That's not a bad notion. But remember that the Corridor fleets are the
strategic reserve against attacks from the Zhodani. I don't think any
government would believe that the fleets couldn't be sent away ever
again, just like it was 10 years earlier. Besides, the Imperial fleet 
is apparently already only 20% of what it could be. The 40 TCr squadrons
mentioned above is what a lax attitude would provide. 

Finally, all this is if Corridor is abandoned by its neighbours. But while
it is perfectly plausible that Norris will shift most of his active forces
to the Zhodani frontier to begin with, it is inconcivable to me that he
would continue to do so year after year in the face of continued Zhodani
inactivity. And if the high-population worlds in Corridor is having trouble
fending off Vargr, the same cannot be said of those in the Domain of Deneb.
The sensible thing for Norris to do to begin with is shifting all or at least
most of his regular fleets to the Zhodani border, shift the Reft reserve 
fleets to Trojan Reach and the rimward half of the Deneb reserve fleets to 
the Vargr border, and command the reactivation of all mothballed ships. Just 
how many he has is unclear. The most likely number is 8 times the active 
fleets (Given a peacetime budget of 3% of GNPs and a wartime budget of 15%). 
But I can tell you the minimum number of new ships he will have coming for the
first two or three years: roughly 85 ships per year. (If the 68 fleets (34
regular+34 reserve) in the Domain of Deneb are of an average size then they
have roughly 44 ships each (with an average size of 100,000 T). 2% of these
are replaced each year. That means that about 60 ships per year is already
in the pipeline. If they are standard designs, their completion can be
speeded up by about 42%. Thus about 85 ships can be completed per year until
they've all been finished.) That's about two full fleets per year not 
counting reactivations. Eventually Norris is going to start directing 
reinforcements to go towards the troublespots rather than keep beefing up a
frontier where everything is peaceful. At the very least he'd protect the
Domain up to its border; but it is much more in his character to extend a 
helping hand into Corridor.

Tommy Grav writes:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>  
>>Only if losing those trucks will destroy your tank-building capacity. But
>>a high-population world can build ships without any help from outside.
> 
>But shifting your efforts to building tanks is not easy on a high
>population world. As fewer and fewer goods arraive the world, there 
>will be increasingly harder to shift your efforts to supplement you 
>defenses. The general population is screaming for their usual goods 
>and any factory will at best be reluctant to start building military 
>equipment. It is in the civilian part of the world that there is money 
>to be gained. And in the short run (which most factoryowners today and 
>in the future is concerned about) it is economics that's important.

What on Earth (or in space ;-) makes you think any civilian factory owner
will have any choice? If the worlds in Corridor is on a war footing (and
if a bunch of Vargr raiders cutting off commerce dosen't provoke a state
of war, I don't know what will) then every possible effort will be made. 
Look at England during WWII. Any civilian factory not contributing to the 
war effort was quickly made to contribute.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:45:57 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Interstellar economics

Tim Peter writes:
>>In a message dated 97-01-01 17:27:13 EST, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>> 
>>>Who's paying them, and with what? Lucan isn't giving them imperial credits 
>>>anymore. Who is, and where are they claiming to get whatever they are 
>>>paying with?
>  
>>The same people who have been paying them all along; their fellow citizens.
  
>Does this sound remarkably like deficit spending to anyone else out there?
>
>[...]
>OK, I'm oversimplifying.  But do you see the logic gap inherent to this
>situation?  The shipyards will likely accept payment of the currency of
>Mikesh, as long as their creditors continue to accept it, which they are
>likely to do, so long as *their* creditors continue to accept it, and so on.
>Money, as near as I can figure, is a myth (at least once you're off the gold
>standard, or whatever passes for it in the 45th century).  If I give Hans a
>one dollar note, he will accept it, if he believes in good faith he can
>exchange it for one dollar's worth of goods and services.  Same goes for
>whoever he exchanges it with.  And if that person can use it to pay one
>dollar's worth of taxes, so much the better.  The only problem arises if a
>creditor, or (God forbid) the government, refuses to exchange that one dollar
>note for about a dollar's worth of stuff.  Then all Hell breaks loose.  And
>let's not even begin to talk about the nationalization of the shipyards!
> Trust me, Mikesh's credits, at least on Mikesh, are worth about as much as
>Lucan's credits, and the building will go on.

Ah, Peter, I must have been expressing myself badly, because that is exactly
what I've been trying to say. My argument is that the shipbuilding capacity
stays on Mikesh. No matter what credits Lucans recieves electronically, he
can't use them to maintain ships 100 parsecs away from Mikesh. Thus the
Mikesh capacity is free to do work on Mikesh. Exactly how is a matter of
bookkeeping. If the Mikesh government can't use the credits that they have
"paid" to Lucan, then they'd use deficit spending or some other bookkeeping
trick instead.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:20:08 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Interstellar economics

In a message dated 97-01-02 14:48:02 EST, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Ah, Peter, I must have been expressing myself badly, because that is
exactly
>  what I've been trying to say.


Eh, heh-heh, um...oops.  I must apologize.  I read your post, and composed my
reply, following my Fifth Annual New Year's Day Drunken Football Orgy (TM).
 Here in the States it is not uncommon for louts such as myself to celebrate
the New Year by imbibing truly disgusting quantities of alcohol while
screaming at the University of Michigan football team to crush Alabama (damn,
no such luck), Arizona State to maim Ohio State (double-damn!  Oh, how I hate
Ohio State!), and Penn State to humiliate Texas (well, one out of three isn't
altogether horrible).  I don't know, when I read your post it really seemed
to be saying quite the opposite of what it looks like to me now.  Hmmm.  Oh
well.  I do agree with you.  I think it is unrealistic of TCS, though, to
disallow deficit spending (which I assume it does), since most governments
have utilized the practice in times of war at least once.  Plus if they win
they can make up the deficit by forcing the loser to pay reparations.  To the
victor goes the spoils, and all that.  Secondly, I assume TCS doesn't allow
for government nationalization of the shipyards (and the resource producers,
etc.).  While I admit it isn't the ideal method of producing ships (at least
it hasn't appeared to work so well in history, IIRC), it does keep ships
coming off the line, albeit at a slower pace.  Perhaps a slight modification
of the rules is in order.  Think about it.

Still trying to clear the fog in my head,

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, Ignorance."--- Socrates

 

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 15:27:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Vargr invaders (long)

Hi.

Hans, I agree with just about everything you've said about the Vargr
invasion of Corridor; I've never believed that such a scenario is
possible. But something you said in your last post actually got me
speculating a little bit...

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

> Well, I'm glad we finally got the Vargr corsairs dismissed as the conquerors
> of Corridor. That's a start, at least. As for Vargr interstellar governments,
> we can certainly make some educated guesses about their resources and 
> motivations. First you say that they'd want to invade Corridor in the first 
> place. Well, I could give you some arguments about that, given that any 
> really big and powerful Vargr government must inevitably be struggling
> against  those social forces that are always trying to force Vargr societies
> apart, but I'll give you that one. Perhaps the inspiring words of Oekhsos

Hmm... In the past, it has often been the case here in the US (and, I
suspect, also abroad) that when we have been faced with divisive issues,
our leaders call on us to fight a war. This almost always leads to our
leader becoming more popular with the electorate, and to our divisions
being ignored. It occurs to me that such a tactic may be even more
useful to the Vargr.

And if a sufficiently charismatic leader should call for a crusade...

Well anyway, it's food for thought.

- -Rob

<hr>

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 23:59:35 -0800
From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
Subject: Starship design SNAFU's

Hello again, and a belated Happy New Year to you all. I took my
Traveller books with me on Christmas vacation & did some doodling
around, and a few more issues cropped up I hadn't seen or thought of
before with regard to starship design. I wanted to run them past you &
see if anybody else had picked them up:


COMBAT AGILITY FOR QSDS & SSDS SHIPS

First & foremost, I was suddenly struck by the fact that you have to
calculate mass for SSDS ships, although this in no way fits into the
rules as they are presented. Nor does the weight of a vessel have any
design implications. I find this curious =96 why am I being asked to
calculate an absolutely meaningless equation?

So what's the official word (if any) on weight vs. power =3D agility? Is
this going to be included in the upcoming Naval Architect's Handbook, or
in some other book? Are all of my beautiful warships (and all of the
stock ships presented to us thus far) suddenly going to turn into
unmanuverable, easy-to-hit pigs at the (upcoming) stroke of a pen?


THRUSTER PRICES IN SSDS ARE SCREWED UP

Try this: Design a set of thrusters for the same ship at the same speed
in both SSDS and QSDS, and you'll find that the SSDS thrusters are
almost exactly 14 TIMES more expensive, although the other stats are
reasonably close. Looks like somebody got a little enthusiastic when
converting all those displacement tons to cubic meters & skipped a
table=85.

I did a few quick checks, and it became clear that the QSDS prices =96 th=
e
cheaper ones -- are correct. Otherwise the stock ships would be hauling
around thruster drives that cost more than they do.


POWER CONSUMPTION FOR LASERS: QSDS VS. SSDS

The power consumption for both these systems seems to be off by the same
factor (roughly 14:1). Unfortunately, I can't tell which one is correct
by testing them against stock ship designs, because instead of power
consumption in megawatts we are presented with this damnably vague
'power plant rating'. Anybody know which one is right?

(I might be wrong on this one, but the contradictory math in other areas
has made me a little bit paranoid. There is no Rate Of Fire listing for
QSDS batteries).


MAGIC FIRE CONTROL

Has anybody noticed that many of the stock vessels in Starships are
carrying around their price tag in MFD's? The Military Destroyer is
probably the worst example =96 even if all four missile turrets are
sharing the same MFD somehow, that still gives it a total of 15 MFD's.
At TL12, that costs 384MCr=85.. but the total price of the Military
Destroyer is listed at 413.1MCr. The price of the hull (inc. life
support & the other necessary goodies) alone puts it 'way over budget.
The Fire Control Rating is listed at 4, so those MFD's have to be in
there somewhere=85.

(Picture a small angry Italian man yelling at an Imperial design
engineer in a courtroom: "Do the laws of economics cease to apply in
your shipyard? Are these MAGIC fire control directors? ARE YOU SURE
ABOUT THOSE PUBLISHED PRICES?!?")


MAGIC FIRE CONTROL, PART 2

The Light & Medium Fighters each have a Fire Control Rating of 1, the
Heavy Fighter has an FCR of 2 (as does the Patrol Cruiser), then the
Missile Bomber goes back to 1 again. They are all constructed at TL12;
they should either have a rating of 4 or 0, or else I'm missing
something major.


MAGIC FUEL CONSUMPTION

Am I supposed to overlook a 10-ton Light Fighter (to quote an obvious
example) that carries 10 displacement tons of FUEL? Is this supposed to
be cubic meters? If it is, and it has a HEPLAR drive, it can stay in
space for a little over an hour =96 not terribly useful in a combat
situation. If it has thrusters with the requisite fusion plant, it has
enough fuel to last for several years =96 not a terribly efficient use of
space in such a cramped vehicle.

Unfortunately, we don't have an inkling of the drive system used on any
of the stock ships unless it's mentioned in the description =96 even if I
wanted to design a local variant for certain systems or pocket empires,
I'd have to build it up from scratch. From a gearhead's point of view,
this severely limits the book's utility. I am increasingly wondering why
I paid $25 for this thing.


MAGIC LIFE SUPPORT

There is no power column for either Basic or Standard life support in
SSDS. It would solve a great many problems, but I doubt solar-powered
life support is possible at Standard Stellar tech levels=85

And just to nitpick, the price is given in megawatts and the crew
requirements in MCr. This is just a runamill typo & easily worked
around, but annoying when added to the vast number of other errors.


BUDDY, CAN YOU SPARE A PREFAB FF&S COMPONENT?

I freely admit to never having gotten past long division in high school,
and a lot of the formulae in FF&S are nonsensical to me, even with the
aid of a pocket calculator. I got to the point where I could (finally)
design my own sensor suites, but the equations for the various weapons
systems are driving me insane. I tried repeatedly to build a 140'
10,000Mj Model BadNasty Blowemup NPAW spinal mount, but when I tried to
figure out the damage, it did more damage further away than close up=85..

That pretty much did it for me. You should have something more to show
for a weekend's worth of torturing your calculator than five pages of
scribbles and eraser marks.

In the meantime, I'm holding out my hat. Anything at all in the way of
starship components built from FF&S =96 most especially big nasty weapons
=96 will be gratefully and humbly accepted.=20

One of these days I'll quit bitching & earn my keep by posting some ship
designs replete with detailed and colorful descriptive blurbs, but NOT
UNTIL I AM ROCK-SOLID CERTAIN THAT THE MATH WORKS. I should be able to
build stock ships using QSDS, but I can't. I should be able to build
QSDS components and ships using SSDS, but I can't do that either. In the
meantime, I'll take whatever help I can get, even of the patient "look,
dipstick, THIS is how it works" variety. (Chris Cox and John Macpherson
have both been invaluable in this regard).

If nothing else, hopefully the NAH will come along soon and straighten
everything out.=20


Long Live The Imperium!

- -- Jay Stranahan

<hr>

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #807
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, January 2 1997      Volume 1996 : Number 808



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Cheap Satellite Comms for Low Tech Countries
Re: Heat Tolerance in Starships
Surveillance and Intelligence Sensor Suites
Re: Imperial Warrants
Re: why the Aztecs lost, side comment
Re: Starship design SNAFU's
High Technology and Primitive Planets
Re: Vargr invaders 
The Corridor Invasion
Re: why the Aztecs lost, side comment
Re: Spreadsheets
Re: SSDS Spreadsheet problems
Re: Anti-grav or Contragrav ?
Re: Anti-grav or Contragrav ?
Re: Why the Aztecs lost
Re: why the Aztecs lost, side comment
Founder 5000
Re: Interstellar economics (Not!)
Re: Surveillance and Intelligence Sensor Suites
Re: High Technology and Primitive Planets
Re: FYI - It Could Be Worse

<hr><hr>----------

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 14:14:09 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cheap Satellite Comms for Low Tech Countries

Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk> wrote:

>shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) says:

>>visitors if the place has a permanent port.  Selling phones and
>>batteries (or small solar panels) to natives is then a matter of "why
>>not"? It'll bring in some cash, and won't hurt the high tech folks.

>Whoa! IISS steps in and immediately says "No can do! That sort of
>communications revolution to the mediaeval or wild west societies you
>mentioned would DRASTICALLY change the entire evolution of a low 
>tech' world." If the IISS really did perform any sort of moderation of
>technological development on low tech' worlds (as they do in my games) 
>then you wouldn't get this sort of drastic technology mix.

>Again, though, this comes down to whether you regard low TL as being
>mediaeval society or just a high tech society with very little manufacturing
>ability (Ducks as argument over meaning of TL start up again).

Nope, that's not the way the Imperium works.  Worlds with A, B, & C
Starports are fully part of the Imperium and are open to trade.  The
locals can impose their own limits, but the Imperium does not.  Only
worlds *below* TL 5 are restricted, everyone else gets to join the fray. 

"Without the proper license, it is against Imperial law to sell, to races 
below TL 5, artifacts more than one tech level above the planet's.  (This
assumes the world is part of the Imperium and not a Red Zone)."

[World Builder's Handbook, page 14, DGP]

You can sell all the satellite phones you want to any TL 5 world in the
Imperium. 

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 14:18:19 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Heat Tolerance in Starships

 Wed, 01 Jan 1997 19:49:47 -0800, David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
>> More importantly, the throw seems to be to see if the maneuver
>> drives fail, not if the hull gives way.
>
>It is and that was one point about the adventure which absolutely drove
>me nuts because it just didn't make sense. When I challenged the ref on
>it, he replied that he had a damage effects chart based on real-world
>physics ready for use. Common sense prevailed and I decided to enjoy the
>adventure instead. :-)

I guess it depends on how you consider the maneuver drives as working.
I'm not sure whether the adventure was published after after
GDW decided to switch from drives that were clearly pictured
as thowing out exhast to thruster plates (deciding that is was
just a coincidence that the reactor always was set up to throw
its thuster like exhaust along the major thrust axis of the
ship :-).  If it's before, the thrusters need to poke out of
the ship and can be a source of failure.  Otherwise I guess
you could say it's the reactor exhaust that pokes out and
the mean "power plant failure" when the say "manuever drive
failure".  (Presumably feeling that plumetting into the
depths of the gas giant to be the most immediate problem
associated with power plant failure :-)

<hr>

Date: 2 Jan 97 16:56:51 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Surveillance and Intelligence Sensor Suites

Here's an add-on chart for SSDS that I banged out today.  It's a set of
sensor suites designed for Intelligence Collection Platforms.  Each sports
an improved passive array as its major feature.  Check 'em out, tell me
what you think.

- <hr>---------------------------
Surveillance/Intelligence Sensor Suites

TL	Len   Mass	  Volume	   Area	Power	Price	(El)	USP 
11	40	 197.30	  204.55	    656	134.96	 80.38	 10  A10 P5 J0
12	90*	 172.5(fl)  174.35(fl)  135	 68.71	164.56(fl) 11	A10 P6 J0
		 112.5(fx)  114.35(fx) 3135			104.56(fx)
13	200*	 352.68(fl) 366.35(fl)  134.4	 68.76	349.60(fl) 11	A10 P7 J0
		 202.68(fx) 216.35(fx) 3134.4			199.60(fx)
14	400** 786.51	  800.35	    120.5	 43.62	793.68     11	A10 P8 J0
15	400** 284.91	  295.10	    119.6	 43.67	297.18	 11	A10 P8 J0

*These sensor suites are too large for most starships.  Values for each are
given as folding (fl) and fixed (fx) arrays.  The suites may be installed
as fixed arrays in hull size/configurations larger than the Length of the
sensor; otherwise they must be installed as folding arrays.

**The TL-14 and 15 sensor suites are too large to be installed in any hull
size available in SSDS.  The values listed are for folding arrays only.

Combat Effects:
A ship using folding array sensors takes one turn to deploy or retract the
antenna, during which it cannot maneuver.  No maneuvering or accelleration
is possible while the antenna is deployed, and the ship's size is increased
by +1 for the purpose of enemy active sensor locks.

Explanation:
All Surveillance suites include the following equipment:
	1x300,000km Radio
	3x1000AU Maser Comm
	2x300,000km AEMS
	2x150,000km PEMS (TL-11)
	2x180,000km PEMS (TL-12)
	2x210,000km PEMS (TL-13)
	2x240,000km PEMS (TL-14)
	2x240,000km PEMS (TL-15)
	1xDensitometer
	1xNeural Activity Sensor (TL-13+)
	1xNeutrino Sensor
	3xTL-x Standard Computers
	TL-10+ Avionics	
- <hr>---------------------------
Jeff Kazmierski


- <hr>---------------------------
                +
                |\      "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________
        odysseus@novia.net
  http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/
- <hr>---------------------------

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:07:19 +0000 (GMT)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial Warrants

On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Christopher Weuve wrote:
> 
> There is a series of books called _Exordium_ by Dave Trowbridge and Sherwood 
> Smith.  In it the <Emperor-equivalent> has secretly given certain trusted 
> Imperial nobles one-use vetos.  Nobles so empowered are called the "<can't 
> think of it> Covert", as opposed to those who have revealed themselves by 

   Praerogate.

- -- DLH                                      lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "The fact that slaughter is a horrifying spectacle must make us take
war more seriously, but does not provide an excuse for gradually
blunting our swords in the name of humanity. Sooner or later, someone
will come along with a sharper sword and hack off our arms."
                                                  - Karl von Clausewitz

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:09:35 -0500
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: why the Aztecs lost, side comment

Catwalk: ROTFL (through my stiff upper lip of course)

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 18:10:00 -0500
From: Chip Wright <ruwright@InfoAve.Net>
Subject: Re: Starship design SNAFU's

>THRUSTER PRICES IN SSDS ARE SCREWED UP
>
>Try this: Design a set of thrusters for the same ship at the same sp=
eed
>in both SSDS and QSDS, and you'll find that the SSDS thrusters are
>almost exactly 14 TIMES more expensive, although the other stats are
>reasonably close. Looks like somebody got a little enthusiastic when
>converting all those displacement tons to cubic meters & skipped a
>table=85.
>
>I did a few quick checks, and it became clear that the QSDS prices =
=96 the
>cheaper ones -- are correct. Otherwise the stock ships would be haul=
ing
>around thruster drives that cost more than they do.

(snip snip)

=46rom my doodling, it looks to me like the jump drive prices are off=
 by
about the same factor.  The stock scout/courier I designed using the =
SSDS
ended up costing 54.1 MCr (before the 25% discount).  It wasn't much
cheaper though with QSDS, at 45.2 MCr, (again before the 25% discount=
),
because of the ultra expensive TL12 Controls (18.2 MCr ouch!). =20

It appears to me that the stock ship listings were not designed by ei=
ther
QSDS or SSDS. =20

For my campaign, the SSDS will serve just fine, ships will just cost =
more
than those listed in Starships and T4, (not gonna let my players see =
those
anyway).  Wish I could understand why the Minimal Electronics Package=
 in
SSDS cost so much though.:-(

>MAGIC LIFE SUPPORT
>
>There is no power column for either Basic or Standard life support i=
n
>SSDS. It would solve a great many problems, but I doubt solar-powere=
d
>life support is possible at Standard Stellar tech levels=85
>
>And just to nitpick, the price is given in megawatts and the crew
>requirements in MCr. This is just a runamill typo & easily worked
>around, but annoying when added to the vast number of other errors.

(snip snip)

I think the "Price/MW" listing IS the power requirement and the "Crew=
/MCr"
listing is the price, so whats missing is the crew requirement...

>If nothing else, hopefully the NAH will come along soon and straight=
en
>everything out.=20
>
>
>Long Live The Imperium!
>
>-- Jay Stranahan

Hear hear...:-)

Chip Wright

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:15:07 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: High Technology and Primitive Planets

On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, John R. Snead wrote:
> Nope, that's not the way the Imperium works.  Worlds with A, B, & C
> Starports are fully part of the Imperium and are open to trade.  The
> locals can impose their own limits, but the Imperium does not.  Only
> worlds *below* TL 5 are restricted, everyone else gets to join the fray. 
> 
> "Without the proper license, it is against Imperial law to sell, to races 
> below TL 5, artifacts more than one tech level above the planet's.  (This
> assumes the world is part of the Imperium and not a Red Zone)."
> 
> [World Builder's Handbook, page 14, DGP]

Please forgive my ignorance - I'm new to the Traveller Mailing List, and
I'm not familiar the background material beyond that associated with
"Classic" Traveller, but why should the Imperium restrict trade with
technologically backward planets?  I suppose anthropologists and
sociologists might petition the Imperial government to keep such planets
Interdicted and isolated, so they can be studied (and, perhaps, used as
"psychohistorical guinea pigs" as well), but altruistic concern for the
social stability of developing worlds sounds more like the United
Federation of Planets than the Third Imperium.  Granted, there isn't very
much money to be made in trading cellular telephones and automatic rifles
to backwards savages, in exchange for curious native handicrafts and the
mineral rights to the planet, but *some* is better than *none* -- or does
the Imperium want to ease such planets into interstellar society slowly,
so that eventually they will become prosperous and tribute-paying, thus
sacrificing a small quick profit for a far larger long-term one? 

                                                              - J. Raynor

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:44:47 -0500
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr invaders 

Hans wrote:

> Well, a fleet is quite a big thing. If the Vargr version is roughly 
> equivalent to an Imperial fleet it is something like 3 TCr Squadrons. But 
> a world like Mikesh would be defended by the equivalent of 180-200 TCr 
> squadrons if we go by TCS straight rules or by 36-40 of them if we go by 
> analogy with what we know of the regular Imperial forces.

Mikesh has a Class C starport.  That means that they do not build starships
or even spaceships. So, the main form of defense would have come from the
Imperial fleet which as we all know was sent elsewhere.

One other thing, how do we know that the Vargr tech level tops out at 13 and
how do we know the this applies to the governments of the Provence sector?

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 16:22:53 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
Subject: The Corridor Invasion

I think the success can largely be "blamed" on Norris;
there are hints throughout the stuff which was published that
once the ball went up and fullscale civil war erupted within
the Imperium proper, Norris (as well as declaring himself
Archduke) "encouraged" at least one major Vargr band to
move into and block Corridor, to isolate the Marches from
the civil war's ravages.  Which, in retrospect, was a damn
smart move, as nearly everywhere else got blown to bits
during the fighting; by the end of the Civil War, the Domain
of Deneb was by far the largest remaining intact chunk of
territory, even with the Vargr and Aslan incursions.

- -george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com

<hr>

Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 00:30:27 -0800
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: why the Aztecs lost, side comment

Neveron@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Catwalk: ROTFL (through my stiff upper lip of course)What does ROTFL mean?

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 18:20:21 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Spreadsheets

At 12:22 am 12/30/96 -0800, Susan M. Shock said:
>Dave,
>	Thanks for directing me to the spreadsheets. Unfortunatley, when I
>downloaded them, it appears the ZIP file was corrupted; I couldn't unzip
>it with Winzip and when I used PKzipfix on the file, it had lost some of
>the sheets. Thought you might want to know :)
>			Allen

	OK, I've checked out my local copy and it's fine. I'll upload it again. 
PS: Your email address keeps giving me errors...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 18:21:40 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Re: SSDS Spreadsheet problems

At 04:26 pm 12/30/96 -0800, John R. Snead wrote:
>Dave Golden just listed the URL for a SSDS spreadsheet:
>
>
http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/NavalArchitect/SSDSSheets.zip
>
>
>I tried the URL, downloaded the spreadsheet and can't get it to unzip.  
>I'm using a recent zip program, so I'm wondering if there is a problem 
>with the file.  If anyone has been able to run the spreadsheet I'd 
>appreciate either tips on how to unzip it, or (if possible) a uuencoded, 
>zipped version emailed to me.

	I've verified my local copy, and uploaded it again just in case the one
online got corrupted. Let me know if it still doesn't work.

PS: Some of the filenames are longer than MS-DOS's limit of 8.3, because I
use Win95...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 18:22:31 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-grav or Contragrav ?

At 10:24 am 12/31/96 +0200, Antti Lahtinen said:
>Steven Bonneville wrote:
>> ...and the T4 contragrav drives are annoying enough that this
>> would make a lot of sense.
>
>        (Sorry, jumping off the subject...)
>
>        I thought that contragrav lifters were used only in TNE,
>        and T4 uses anti-grav thrusters.
>
>        Contragrav lifter (CG) was TNE device that countered
>        external gravitic attraction within affected volume,
>        and thus allowed objects to "float" within gravity
>        fields. As the required energy depended only on the
>        size of this affected volume, any amount of mass within
>        this volume would float with the same input energy.
>        (It was relatively easy to design perpetual motion
>        powerplants with CG lifters.)
>
>        Anti-grav thruster (AG) was MegaTraveller device that
>        generated direct thrust using gravitic repulsion. While
>        AG thruster worked well within strong gravity fields,
>        it was virtually useless in deep space as there was no
>        gravity fields to push against.
>
>        So, which system should be used in T4 ?

	I don't recall what it's actually called in T4, but it was supposed to be
the MT flavor--generates thrust, and is useless in deep space.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 18:22:53 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-grav or Contragrav ?

At 10:06 pm 12/31/96 -0800, David Smart said:
>Antti Lahtinen wrote:

>Based on some previous posts by Wildstar, T4 uses AG thrusters. Jumping
>a thruster-based ship to a deep space location results in virtually
>total loss of maneuver capability (less than 1G regardless of thruster
>rating in an in-system environment).  Makes HEPlAR much more attractive
>despite the fuel requirements (IMO). Previous posts have suggested
>ship designs which contain both types, making for rather expensive
>warships.

	NOTE: I want to emphasise that the Anti-Gravity and Thruster Plates are
NOT THE SAME THING! Anti-Gravity is supposed to be what you use for grav
vehicles, etc. that work on a planet. Their efficiency goes down as gravity
goes down.

	Thruster plates, on the other hand, work at the same efficiency out to a
quantum-hrmph-gravito-tachyonic-hrm-mumble-mumble-vertrionic-yada-yada-yada
threshold several thousand AU out from the star. It's a step function, not
a continuous function.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:01:51 +1030
From: grants@dove.net.au (Grant Sinclair)
Subject: Re: Why the Aztecs lost

> Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:42:45 -0800 (PST)
> From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
> Subject: Re: Why the Aztecs lost
>
> > Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 03:43:51 -0800
> > From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
> >
> > The Aztecs lost because they weren`t British.  Simple really.
>
> They weren't?  Let's examine the evidence:
>
>   Mexica                          Brits
> =================================================================
>
(snip)
>
>   Society poured enormous         Cricket
>    resources and energy into
>    obscure, incredibly lengthy
>    rituals, which other nations
>    could not understand.
>
> Need I say more?
>

Following the performance of the English team against Zimbabwe, I'd
say that the Brits can't understand cricket either....

- <hr><hr>---------
Grant Sinclair                  The mean time to need something after
                                discarding it is 2 weeks. This can be
grants@dove.net.au              reduced to 1 week by hanging on to
http://dove.mtx.net.au/~grants  it for a long time first.
- <hr><hr>---------

<hr>

Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 01:36:53 -0800
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: why the Aztecs lost, side comment

Rob Beck wrote:
> 
> At 12:30 AM 1/3/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >Neveron@aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> Catwalk: ROTFL (through my stiff upper lip of course)What does ROTFL mean?
> 
> Hi Neil,
> 
> Rolling On The Floor Laughing
> 
> You'll probably also see:
> 
> ROTFLOL
> 
> Rolling On The Floor Laughing Out Loud
> 
> and
> 
> ROTFLMAO
> 
> Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off
> 
> There's a plethora of acronyms like that used but these are all related, so
> there you go.
> 
> Rob.
> 
>                          Robert Beck
>                          E-Mail: beck@mail.all-net.net
>                          Send E-Mail For My Public PGP Key.Thanks

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:31:20 +0000
From: "Tim Reynolds" <tim@premier1.premier.net>
Subject: Founder 5000

Syledon Corporate News:

In an interview with Cally Simpenson , a CFO for Sylea Investments,
the leading  investment firm for the Cleon Wealth. , SCN discussed
Founder Ship Works new Founder 5000.  The Cleon  family has invested
some what heavily in the New Ship building Corporation and we at SCN
want to get at the reason why.

SCN:  So Mr. Simpenson the readers of SCN are wondering what your
company and t hus the Cleon  see in Founder Ship Workers.
Mr. Simpenson: Well we see that unlike many ship builders especially
those in the cargo business  have been lacking the foresight that
Founder is built on, and works to maintain. They as well as the Cleon
family believe  that the Imperium is built on trade, but that in order
to master the future we must move away from the small Free Traders we
have become so familiar with, over the last century, and towards
larger more capable ships. It is this idea that has generated so much
interest in Founder Ship Works.
 SCN:  Does this mean that  the Emperor him self sees the disappearance of the
 Far Trader, and what about larger cargo  vessels.  If the press release
 put out by Founder is to be believed it seems that we have no cargo ships
 above 600  tons. 
Mr .Simpenson:  No the Emperor  does not see the dimes of the Free Trader
far from it.  He believes that the Far Trader and  Free Traders will
continue as a vital  element in the expansion of the 3rd Imperium.  As
for larger cargo ships they are  older out of date ships and designs
and the mere fact that we rely so heavily on the smaller Trader Class
ships show how inefficient these ships are,. Founder on the other hand
 works to achieve success for its customers through the efficiency  of
the Founder 5000.  Lets face it its the bottom line is all that
counts here. 
SCN: You talk about efficiency of the Founder 5000 ,and
its ability to keep a company in the black what about its 600+Mcr
price tag, how does this help a shipping company meet your bottom line
Mr. Simpenson?
 Mr. Simpenson:  The answer to your question is easy
just look at the profit margin for the ship.  Its been projected that
the Founder can pay for its self in 8 years on an average cargo load
that makes 1Kcr per ton.  Even if the owner is unlucky enough to only
make 100cr per ton he can make his margins, can an owner of Free
Trader say the same thing I think not. Also like other transport ships
the Founder 5000 can be subsidized by the Government, so that a
company can afford a Founder 5000.
 SCN:  Well, thank you for your Time Mr. Simpenson  I am sure 
that everyone looks for the success of
Founder Ship Works, and their New Founder 5000.

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 20:43:24 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Interstellar economics (Not!)

TPeterAZ@aol.com wrote:
> Eh, heh-heh, um...oops.  I must apologize.  I read your post, and composed my
> reply, following my Fifth Annual New Year's Day Drunken Football Orgy (TM).

Is it true that this event was hosted by Paramount to celebrate its
takeover of the TML?

>  Here in the States it is not uncommon for louts such as myself to celebrate
> the New Year by imbibing truly disgusting quantities of alcohol while
> screaming at the University of Michigan football team to crush Alabama (damn,
> no such luck), Arizona State to maim Ohio State (double-damn!  Oh, how I hate
> Ohio State!), and Penn State to humiliate Texas (well, one out of three isn't
> altogether horrible).

I resent this remark. Those of us in Texas can do just fine *without*
Penn State's help. [g]

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 21:03:58 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Surveillance and Intelligence Sensor Suites

Jeff Kazmierski wrote:
> 
> All Surveillance suites include the following equipment:
>
>         1xNeural Activity Sensor (TL-13+)

Why this item? Even at TL20 (that's right, _twenty_), a NAS has a short
range of 50km, making it effectively useless beyond far orbit. And at
far orbit distances, any spook ship sticks out like a sore thumb every
time it occults the background star field.

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 21:11:16 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: High Technology and Primitive Planets

John P. Raynor wrote:
> <snip> or does
> the Imperium want to ease such planets into interstellar society slowly,
> so that eventually they will become prosperous and tribute-paying, thus
> sacrificing a small quick profit for a far larger long-term one?
> 

Bingo.

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 23:31:06 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: FYI - It Could Be Worse

athol-brose writes:

>And just what is wrong with these terms of use? You can't pass the 
>files, images or sounds around, nor can you modify them and then do so, 
>you can't flame on their message boards, and they're not responsible if
>something damages your computer, and if you send them a submission that
>they insist they don't want and won't accept, you give it to them -- so
>that you can't sue them for coming up with something similar later.

   For one, the way in which the terms are presented.  Placed on a page
that is linked to the main Web page by extremely small print at the very
bottom, as though they hope you don't see it, least you become as
offended as I was and decide not to come back.

   For another, the language the terms were in: straight from the Legal
Department In Hell.  No apologies or explanations telling you *why* the
notice was written the way it was.  Only a statement that if you don't
like it, leave.  The Ferengi would be proud.

   Further still, people have been passing around Star Trek related
images since there has been an Internet.  For them to suddenly crack
down (which they did in the weeks proceeding the launch of the site) on
popular Star Trek Web sites is short-sighted and insulting.  For them to
threaten people who may want to share a neat image they found with a
friend (not even posting it to the Web) shows just how arrogant and
naive they are about Cyberspace.

   About a year and a half ago, TSR cracked down on popular Web sites
featuring TSR copyrighted material.  Recently, they announced yet
another significant layoff (the second or third in less than a year) and
appear to be in financial trouble.  Are these two events related? 
Maybe, maybe not, but I would argue that the Web provides companies with
lots of free advertising, and while enforcing copyright is important,
you have to weigh how much it's costing you to allow Billy Joe and Suzy
Q to post a few images on their Web site against what you would have
paid to reach as many people as Billy Joe and Suzy Q are on a
daily/hourly basis, and the loss of goodwill that happens whenever you
send a nastygram to Billy Joe and Suzy Q telling them they have to take
those images off their sites.  I know of at least one case back during
the TSR crackdown where a guy became so upset at the way he was threaten
and generally treated that he boxed up all of his AD&D materials and
shipped them back to TSR headquarters.  He also posted a notice on the
WWW telling everyone what he did and why.  That site was seen by
thousands of people, and you can be darn sure TSR lost revenue as a
result.

>It may just be me, but NONE of this is unreasonable, and none of it is
>especially draconian, either.

   It's in your face, take it or leave it, oh by the way can we have
your name, e-mail address, age, sex, location and household income level
so we can sell it to every cybermarketer in the world (No I'm not
kidding--on another page at the same site they want you to volunteer all
this information just so that you can get their newsletter via e-mail). 
Apparently corporate lobes are large, and brass too....once again the
Ferengi would be proud.

   BTW, you say that you can't share story ideas on the moderated Bab 5
newsgroup.  After you've talked about the current cast of characters,
their background, the station, the alien races, and the equipment
(weapons, etc.) What do you talk about?  Wouldn't speculation about the
way a storyline is going to develop constitute a story idea?  Lord knows
this mailing list would slow to a trickle under such a restriction.

   Maybe I wouldn't be so offended were things formatted and written a
bit differently, but I was definately put off by Paramount's Star Trek
site, and I doubt I'll ever visit it again.  If it is the future of the
Internet, I'd rather just go back to a straight FTP program and delete
Netscape off my hard drive.

Regards,

Harold

<hr>

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #808
**********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, January 3 1997       Volume 1996 : Number 809



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

A small, nifty, vehicle
Traveller Answer: Ship Designs 
Jim's GALAXY program
Re: Water on Starships
Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #808
Contra Grav range question
Re: Jim's GALAXY program
IG returns?
Re: Starship design SNAFU's
Italians in space
Re: IG returns?
Re: Interstellar economics (long)
Re: Why the Aztecs Lost (was: Why the Vilani lost)
Re: Shipboard gas mix
Re: Shipboard gas mix
Re: FYI - It Could Be Worse

<hr><hr>----------

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:39:11 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: A small, nifty, vehicle

Someone's mention of the wonderful, and very Travelleresque
Exordium series has inspired me to create a vehicle based the
Nuller bubbles in these books.  

In the series, the Nullers are long-lived eccentrics who live in 0 G.
Unable to bear normal gravity, they can still visit planets by riding
around in small, 1-person, bubble-shpeed grav vehicles which are kept at 0
g in their interior: 

TL 12 Nuller Bubble:

Displacement: 0.3
Volume: 4.2 m3
Configuration Sphere: (streamlined)
Dimensions: 2 meters in diameter
Structural material: TL 12 transparent superdense
Chassis: 6 G rated
Armor: 0.3 cm Superdense
Armor Rating: 7 all facings

Power plant 0.5 MW TL 12 Fusion+
Fuel Consumption: 0.03 m3/100 hours
Fuel Carried: 300 Hours
Crew: 1 pilot, roomy seating
Options:
3 G Grav Comp
Standard life support (with water and waste reprocessing)
Fire Suppression System
TL 12 civilian Continental range communicator
TL 12 civilian subregional range broad spectrum active EMS
TL 12 civilian subregional range broad spectrum passive EMS
Roadgrid System
Emergency wall patch
Rating 2 computer
Color changing smart coating
Autopilot (skill 7)
0.5 m3 cargo compartment

Total mass 2.7 Tons
Total Cost 27,000 Cr
Max Acceleration 4 Gs
Top Speed: 1111 m/turn (669 kph)

So for 26,000 Cr you have a vehicle which can go anywhere, and can even
carry along another person if you don't mind crowding.  You could even use
this thing to from an orbital base into the atmosphere of Jupiter, or
visit Bye-Ren-Ay in low-G air-conditioned comfort.  Add some robot arms
and it becomes a remote work pod for near orbit and hostile planets. 

I love the new vehicle design system.  

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 97 00:03:35 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Traveller Answer: Ship Designs 

Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com> asked:
>   These are going to seem like dumb questions I'm sure, but...

Not at all, Clint!

>   1. Does one use the entire given volumes for the stateroom/
>      bunk, or does one split it between the staterooms and the
>      common areas (Lounges, Promenades, Dining Salons, etc.)?

The staterooms and bunks include volume for access and basic common areas.
Most starship components include the volume of any required accessways,
catwalks, crawlspaces, Jeffries Tubes, or equivalent.

If you're designing a luxury liner that's supposed to have things like Grand
Salons, Promenades, Lounges, and gold-plated freshers, you should probably
allocate volume (and cost!) specifically for that purpose.  There aren't any
rules for those items because the size and cost are so variable.

As a rough rule of thumb, use your 'vision' of just how posh the ship should
be and multiply cost and volume by some number.  The first-class staterooms
aboard the _Silver Star_ might be 3 times the volume, and 6 times the price
listed for "standard" stateroom; the extra volume being used to give the
ship larger common areas, and the extra cost provides the gold-plated
fixtures and solid howood panelling.

>   2. If the latter, what's the canonical source for this, and
>      what's the ratio (I can't find it in either FFS or
>      Starships)?

There isn't one; it's up to the individual designer.  For example, when I
did the Classic Traveller Tukera Liner, I decided that Tukera's designers
(being Vilani) would tend to build large common areas, at the expense of
stateroom size.  So the staterooms abouard the ship aren't much bigger than
railroad sleeping compartments (not a bad model for Traveller starship
staterooms), but the ship had a large dining room/lounge, a central lobby
and stairwell, and an observation deck and bar with floor-to-ceiling
windows.  Solomani-designed and Sylean-designed ships will likely be
different.

>   3. Are corridors included in the "common" allocation, or is
>      this a separate allocation (using up some of the 10-20%
>      slop volume)?  Does one also include corridors in the
>      volume allocation for other kinds of rooms?  Again, what
>      ratio?

Corridors are assumed to be included in the "common" allocation.  However,
it's not uncommon to use some of the "slop volume" for corridors and
accessways, particularly if that makes the deckplans work out better.  In
general, any deckplan that comes within 10% of the actual design volume of
the ship is more than accurate enough for role-playing purposes, and 20% is
acceptable.

It's more important to have a good deckplan that adds interest or excitement
to your game.  For a lot of players, a deckplan (even if it's never used for
combat) makes the ship seem that much more "real", and is an excellent aid
to the imagination.

>   4. Does one include the 'fresher in the allocation for the
>      stateroom, or is this a separate (0.5td) allocation?

The volume of the stateroom includes the 'fresher.  But exactly how much
space that requires is up to the designer.  Some ships have a very compact
fresher (toilet, sink, and shower) in each stateroom.  Others have common
freshers, usually one per two to eight staterooms.  Still others have a
fold-away sink and toilet in each stateroom, but common showers.
It's up to the designer.

>   5. Does anyone have a VISIO 4.0 stencil set for starships?

Sorry, but I don't.  I still use pencil and T-square for my deckplans.

>   6. What is the personal luggage allocation per crew, command,
>      high passenger, and low passenger?

I couldn't find a canonical reference in _Marc Miller's Traveller_, so I
went back and checked Classic Traveller.  In Classic Traveller, the baggage
allowances are 1 displacement ton for High passengers.  Ship designers
and captains should remember to allocate space for this purpose in the cargo
hold, because this space isn't part of the stateroom.

Middle passengers get a 100kg allowance; in practice, this is
probably whatever they can carry on board themselves and stow in the
stateroom.  Low passengers get a 10kg allowance, probably whatever fits in a
small locker near the low berth.  Crewmembers taking a working passage get an
allowance of 1 displacement ton, just like High passengers.  Presumably,
ordinary crewmembers get the same allowance.


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- <hr><hr>------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

<hr>

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 21:36:28 -0800
From: The Orcslayer <rguy@cdsnet.net>
Subject: Jim's GALAXY program

I just downloaded a copy of Jim Vassilakos' GALAXY program and I must say 
it is just plain AWESOME! It's the best thing to happen to Traveller refs 
since the birth of Marc Miller!
********************************************************
		       "RUNAWAY!"
********************************************************
Joe Hamrick                              rguy@cdsnet.net
Homepage       http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/8701

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 21:21:50 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Water on Starships

[I actually don't have that much interest in this thread so this
is probably my last post.]
Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:22:29 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>I'm not talking about using pumping water for *dynamic* balance. I'm
>talking about using it for *static* balance.

But to be able to do the kind of things a Traveller ship does (like
be able to produce it's weight worth in thrust in at least two
seperate direction)

>And as for airplanes, I
>suggest that you have a talk with a pilot who is rated for large
>multi-engine planes. He'll inform you of the importance of being able
>to pump fuel between tanks to keep the plane properly "trimmed" as it
>uses fuel.

OTOH, it's not critical that a plane be designed this way.  If
you have fuel tanks in each wing it's handy to increase balance
but if they didn't already have fuel there I don't believe
the would have put water in the wings just so they can
pump it back an forth.  There was an example of a comercial
airliner that landed with a _Cesna_ imbedded in it's wing.
A starhip, with significantly more thrust will have even
less difficulty.

>You *completely* missed my point. It's *much* more efficient to use
>*paired* thrusters for rotation.

First of all, so you just used paired thrusters rather than
something as crude as pumping water around.  Second of all,
even if it is less "efficient" doesn't, doesn't mean (esp.
with the kind of power a starship has that it has to be
finely balanced to operate).

>You will note that every spaceship built so far uses paired thrusters
>for rotation. :-)

Well, actually they only do so in orbit.  Every spaceship built
has been able to control balance with single thrusters (they
gimballed the nozels).  :-)  This is in spite of the long linear
constructions that are very senstive to torques and designs
the drop large off center objects (the suttle). The reason
they do so in orbit is so they don't have any net accelaration.

However, in any case, why wouldn't you just used paired thrusters.

>A helicopter is a considerable different situation. For one thing, the
>tail rotor is used to *counteract* the torque from the main rotor.

But it _isn't_ used to counteract torques from imbalances in
the ship, which is what we are talking about.

>Sure, you can gimbak main engines. But any intelligent engineer is
>going to set up a ship so that you have a way of balancing off center
>loads by moving the CG back to the centerline.

No.  They don't on the shuttle.

>Why? Because if you don't, you have the problem of having the engines
>pointing to one side to thrust "straight". Which means that you no
>longer have symettrical manueverability capacity.

Only if a) you have only one thruster and b) if that thruster
has be be fully gimballed to conteract any weight imbalance.
I see neither as applying to Traveller ships.

>> Um no.  A Traveller ship can produce enough thrust perpendicular
>> to the main axis to be able to fly horizonally.
>
>Only if you believe DGP's Starship Operators Manual.

And everything I've read or every illustration I've seen.

>Cargo aircraft *require* loads to be balanced.

No they don't (see above).And a starship has a lot more thrust.

>If the nav computer notices that there's an imbalance that seems to
>persist, on a plane it can adjust trim tabs and use aerodynamics,

All of which is the aerodymanic equivalent of thrusters.

>> A ship with the kind of thrust a Traveller ship (and hence any
>> ship with VTOL capability) isn't going to be as sensitive to
>> mass balance as you indicate it is.
>
>Bull.

Not a very detailed or convincing line of reasoning. :-)

>I'll bet you that the Shuttle's loads are *very* carefully calculated
>to balance the load.  And since the loads are *not* moved around while
>the main engines are in use, that makes it a *considerably* different

The thing burns off large fuel loads and drops off solid fuel rockets
while under heavy thrust.  It undergoes considerable changes in
balance.

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 00:11:22 -0600 (CST)
From: granthh@anubis.network.com (Harley Grantham)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #808

> From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
> Subject: Re: FYI - It Could Be Worse
> 
> athol-brose writes:
> 
> >And just what is wrong with these terms of use? You can't pass the 
> >files, images or sounds around, nor can you modify them and then do so, 
> >you can't flame on their message boards, and they're not responsible if
> >something damages your computer, and if you send them a submission that
> >they insist they don't want and won't accept, you give it to them -- so
> >that you can't sue them for coming up with something similar later.
> 
>    For one, the way in which the terms are presented.  Placed on a page
> that is linked to the main Web page by extremely small print at the very
> bottom, as though they hope you don't see it, least you become as
> offended as I was and decide not to come back.
> 
>    For another, the language the terms were in: straight from the Legal
> Department In Hell.  No apologies or explanations telling you *why* the
> notice was written the way it was.  Only a statement that if you don't
> like it, leave.  The Ferengi would be proud.
> 
>    Further still, people have been passing around Star Trek related
> images since there has been an Internet.  For them to suddenly crack
> down (which they did in the weeks proceeding the launch of the site) on
> popular Star Trek Web sites is short-sighted and insulting.  For them to
> threaten people who may want to share a neat image they found with a
> friend (not even posting it to the Web) shows just how arrogant and
> naive they are about Cyberspace.

I shouldn't get into this, but I will.  The real problem here is that
the US courts have yet to define what a web page really is.  The closest
thing it resembles is a published document.  If you put a newsletter
together with Paramount or TSR copyrighted pictures and text and sent
it out to a large group of people, whether you charged for it or not,
you would be violating their copyright and they would be legally 
obligated to send you a cease and desist letter and then prosecute
you in civil court if you didn't stop.  If they don't, they run the
risk of losing not only the right to the specific image, but the
Star Trek trademark as well.  Sure its not very likely, but lawyers
are paid to worry about worse case scenarios. 

I expect that eventually a law or court decision will come along saying
that web pages run by individuals not for profit do not put copyrights
and trademarks at risk.  This will happen simply because policing the 
web is too difficult and international laws can be so complex.  However
it isn't likely to happen until someone takes it to court.  Feel free
to be the first.

>    About a year and a half ago, TSR cracked down on popular Web sites
> featuring TSR copyrighted material.  Recently, they announced yet
> another significant layoff (the second or third in less than a year) and
> appear to be in financial trouble.  Are these two events related? 

I think this has a lot more to do with increased competition for the 
consumer dollar especially among teenagers.  Collectable card games 
comes to mind.

<snip>

Harold makes other points I don't intend to address except to say
There are enough Star Trek forums we don't need to discuss it here.

- -- 
Harley Grantham					granthh@anubis.network.com

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:17:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Contra Grav range question

In Starships Contragrav is listed as having a range of 10 planetary
diameters before it is reduced to 1% of its normal thrust.  In the CSC it
is listed as having a range of 1 planetary diameter before the thrust is 
reduced to 1% normal.  So, which is correct?

I favor the 10 diameter idea so that grav craft can reach Clarke orbit and
can be used to go to space stations.  Also, the thrust is easier to
calculate, for the thrust at a given distance from the planet it equals
Base thrust/distance in diameters squared.  At 2 diameters thrust is
reduced to 1/4, at 10 diameters it is reduced to 1/100... 

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:25:11 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jim's GALAXY program

>I just downloaded a copy of Jim Vassilakos' GALAXY program and I must say
>it is just plain AWESOME! It's the best thing to happen to Traveller refs
>since the birth of Marc Miller!

OK, I'll bite.  Where and what computer platform?

			Zane

| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast          |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer            |
+<hr>----+---------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing   |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                      |

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:29:43 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: IG returns?

Hey,

Just wondering, when will IG be returning?  Is it Janurary 6th?  I had
thought someone mentioned the 2nd, but that may be my overactive imagination
at work.  Thanks.

_________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
          "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
Traveller, IG, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
            http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- <hr><hr>----
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, and the LOWEST prices on the web

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 13:00:07 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: Starship design SNAFU's

JayStr wrote:

> COMBAT AGILITY FOR QSDS & SSDS SHIPS
> 
> First & foremost, I was suddenly struck by the fact that you have to
> calculate mass for SSDS ships, although this in no way fits into the
> rules as they are presented.

        Acceleration [G] = Thrust [ton] / Mass [ton]

        Apparently QSDS assumes that all starships have the same
        average density, and the thrust calculations was left out.

        Note that if accurate thrust calculations are used, the
        ship design process will involve much iteration and fine-
        tuning since the total ship mass will change all the time.
        This can be easily done with a spreadsheet, but I would
        not like to do it with pen and paper.

> THRUSTER PRICES IN SSDS ARE SCREWED UP
>
> Try this: Design a set of thrusters for the same ship at the same speed
> in both SSDS and QSDS, and you'll find that the SSDS thrusters are
> almost exactly 14 TIMES more expensive, although the other stats are
> reasonably close. Looks like somebody got a little enthusiastic when
> converting all those displacement tons to cubic meters & skipped a
> table.

        True, but the table skipping happened in QSDS. The thruster
        price values in QSDS are actually shown as MCr/m3, not as
        MCr/DT as they should be. Thus the actual prices should
        be 14 times the shown values.

> I did a few quick checks, and it became clear that the QSDS prices -- the
> cheaper ones -- are correct. Otherwise the stock ships would be hauling
> around thruster drives that cost more than they do.

        In T4 the cost of thruster plates should be 25% of the
        cost listed in FF&S, and they are still quite expensive.

        All ships in T4 rulebook appear to be calculated using the
        incorrect thruster prices. I haven't seen the Starships yet,
        so I do not know if this error has already been corrected.


        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 97 14:37:47 CET
From: Emilio Desalvo <MC4187@mclink.it>
Subject: Italians in space

> (Picture a small angry Italian man yelling at an Imperial design
> engineer in a courtroom: "Do the laws of economics cease to apply in
> your shipyard? Are these MAGIC fire control directors? ARE YOU SURE
> ABOUT THOSE PUBLISHED PRICES?!?")
Erm, what? Uh? Who? I beg your pardon?

    /\     Emilio Desalvo - mc4187@mclink.it - smiley@popweb.com
   /<>\   +<hr>-----------------------+
  /____\  ! "Ms. Wolversham, you are authorized to return fire!"!
          ! LtCdr. Avshari, aboard HMS Bellerophon, RMN         !
  FNORD   +----http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/1566/-----+

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:55:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: IG returns?

On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Peter J. Miller wrote:

> Just wondering, when will IG be returning?  Is it Janurary 6th?  I had
> thought someone mentioned the 2nd, but that may be my overactive imagination
> at work.  Thanks.

Their voice mail recording says "through the second," which since I 
couldn't get in touch with them yesterday, I suppose it means including 
the 2nd.  Should be back today, then.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:24:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Interstellar economics (long)

In mail you write:

> Does this sound remarkably like deficit spending to anyone else out there?
>  Don't misunderstand me, I am not (remotely) an economist, but I recall
> having  a discussion with an Econ professor in college that went something
> like this:
>
> Professor: "...and that is where budget deficit comes from."
> Me:  "So, you're saying the government owes their suppliers?"
> Prof:  "That's correct."
> Me:  "And these suppliers are US corporations?"
> Prof:  "Yes."
> Me:  "And the government owes more money than it collects?"
> Prof:  "Precisely."
> Me:  "But isn't the government providing services back to the suppliers,
> like, say, defense?"
> Prof: "Well, sure."
> Me:  "So the National Debt is owed to no one but OURSELVES?!?"
> Prof:  "Indeed."
> Me:  "So what do the suppliers gain by foreclosing on the debt?"
> Prof:  "Nothing.  In fact they lose many government services."
> Me (by now incredulous):  "So the only way the US government will actually go
> broke is if their suppliers (of services, or cash in the form of bonds) all
> demand payment, despite the negative impact that has on EVERYONE?!?"
> Prof:  "Mm-hmm."
> Me:  "And how likely is that?"
> Prof:  "Not very, in my opinion."

Being a treasurer for a group that has to submit paperwork that
eventually turns into reports for the IRS, I have a slightly different
perspective.

The problem is that the corporations have that money as "accounts
receivable". This makes it an "assett" on the balance sheet. That is,
the money owed is part of the corporate "net worth". They *can't* write
off the debt, as it would result in a massive loss in net worth. 

But having too much of their net worth tied up in accounts receivable
is very bad for the company. It means their liquidity is shot all to
hell. (ie they can't *spend* the money, even though it's an assett on
the books).

> OK, I'm oversimplifying.  But do you see the logic gap inherent to this
> situation?  The shipyards will likely accept payment of the currency of
> Mikesh, as long as their creditors continue to accept it, which they are
> likely to do, so long as *their* creditors continue to accept it, and so on.
>  Money, as near as I can figure, is a myth (at least once you're off the gold
> standard, or whatever passes for it in the 45th century).

No. Money is real. It's just not *tangible*. And even with a gold
standard, the worth is *still* arbitrary. If you have a gold standard,
and I suddenly figure out how to produce gold for pennies per ton, have
I *really* changed the amount of wealth available? No. But it'll ruin
your economy because most people don't understand that *all* money is
just a way of "keeping score". 

Money is "merely" a generalized IOU. It's what prevents us from having
to barter for everything.

> If I give Hans a
> one dollar note, he will accept it, if he believes in good faith he can
> exchange it for one dollar's worth of goods and services.  Same goes for
> whoever he exchanges it with.  And if that person can use it to pay one
> dollar's worth of taxes, so much the better.  The only problem arises if a
> creditor, or (God forbid) the government, refuses to exchange that one dollar
> note for about a dollar's worth of stuff.

Which is why US money has that bit about "legal tender for all debts,
public and private" on it. That means that if anyone refuses to accept
US money, the US government will land on them like a ton of bricks. 

As an example, it is illegal to refuse US money as payment in the US.
Every once and a while some store owner will get stupid and post a sign
saying that he only accepts credit cards (or credit cards and checks).
And sooner or later the Treasury folks will have a *very* unpleasant
conversation with him.

Another example is that if I have something for sale and have a price
tag on it, then if you offer me that much in cash, I *must* accept it.
If I refuse, you can have it for *free*. That's the government's way of
punishing you for failing to accept their money.

I'm certain that other governments get *just* as nasty about their money.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:47:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Why the Aztecs Lost (was: Why the Vilani lost)

In mail you write:

>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>> A very good example of just *how* alien the various meso-american
>> cultures were is the ritualized game involving a rubber ball and two
>> teams on a court. It is somewhat like basketball.
>
>> It used to be stated that the losing team was sacrificed. But finally
>> the evidence became overwhelming enough to get past Western cultural
>> preconceptions. It was the *winning* team that was sacrificed.
>
> Gosh, no wonder these games took weeks to resolve. It was probably DAYS
> before anyone even scored a point!

I know you are kidding, but just in case anyone else doesn't "get" it,
the teams fought *fiercely* to *win*. And their *reward* was being
sacrificed. 

Like I said, the culture is *alien*. 

Traveller barely has alien *cultures*. And as for Star Trek, don't make
me laugh. With *very* few exceptions, most of their "alien" cultures
are rather minor variations on Western culture.

Of course, trying to get a truly alien culture shown in a TV program
isn't terribly likely. But they could try harder.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:51:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipboard gas mix

In mail you write:

>      Why would a ship bother carrying a whopping great load of nitrogen 
>      (78% of its atmosphere) around? It's pretty damn useless except for 
>      fertilising gardens and coming out in your blood as bubbles when you 
>      decompress. 
>      
>      Perhaps ships could use an inert gas mix - helium scooped out of that 
>      gas giant atmosphere and separated from the hydrogen when refuelling. 
>      
>      The only problem would be that the crew and passengers would all sound 
>      like Mickey Mouse...
>      
>      Maybe ships use different gas mixes depending on what's most commonly 
>      available? The inert (helium, argon, neon?) and semi-inert gasses 
>      (nitrogen, ?) with the right mix of oxygen, kept clean by either 
>      scrubbers or hydroponic plants, or maybe both. 

Sorry, but there are *very* good reasons for the "normal" gas mix.

Roughly 3 psi partial pressure of oxygen is needed for the typical
human. That part of the gas mixture is essentially fixed.

You need roughly one atmosphere of pressure (15 psi) to avoid various
problems with both equipment and people. Also, if you lower the
pressure very much you start getting *severe* fire hazards due to the
increased *percentage* of oxygen.

Helium is *not* suitable. Not only is there the "Donald Duck" effect on
voices due to the lower molecular weight of helium, but for the same
reason, helium conducts heat away *far* too rapidly. Habitats that use
oxy-helium have *severe* problems with hypothermia. Even at 80 degrees
or higher the air *sucks* the heat out of your body. 

Another problem with the low molecular weight is that helium is a
*bitch* to seal things against. It'll leak through seals that are
perfectly good for stopping oxygen or nitrogen from leaking. Besides
the pressure sealing problems this causes, things like vacuum tubes
(CRTs, high power rectifiers, many other things) will be *ruined* by
the helium leaking in.

Gasses like argon are *expensive*. Nitrogen is a *common* element. So
nitrogen will be used.  

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 23:07:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipboard gas mix

In mail, marz@hotstar.net writes:

> Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:
>
> or just do like the space program, 100% oxygen at 0.2 pressure

Sorry, but they quit doing that at the end of the Apollo program. They
use oxygen/nitrogen at normal pressure. They only use straight O2 at 3
psi for space suits. 

They quit using pure O2 due to the fire hazard on the ground, and
because some people can't handle the low pressure. They still use it in
suits because the of the higher chance of a leak (they want to avoid
"the bends") and more importantly, because the higher the pressure
inside a suit, the harder it is to bend the joints. 

Shuttle astronauts going EVA have to breath pure oxygen for an hour or
so to flush the nitrogen out of their bodies before suiting up.

BTW, note that I specified the fire hazard *on the ground* above. In
free fall, fires need a forced draft to burn (no convection). Plus you
can dump the atmosphere if things get really bad. 

But given the artifical gravity in Traveller, a pure oxtgen atmosphere
is a deathtrap. Consider what happened in the Apollo 1 fire. Three
trained test pilot types. And the fire hit them so fast that only *one*
of them had time to say *anything* over the comm link. 

Likerwise, one spark and a stateroom with a pure O2 atmosphere would be
"fully involved" in *seconds*. And an awful lot of structural materials
(iron, aluminum, titanium, plastics, composites, etc) will burn
*violently* in a pure oxygen atmosphere. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 00:00:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: FYI - It Could Be Worse

In mail you write:

> On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Harold D. Hale wrote:
>> The sneakiest thing about this piece of legalese is that the link to the
>> page that contains it is at the bottom of the page, in the smallest font
>> they could find.  Those of you who have Web access should check it out
>> at http://startrek.msn.com/, and then e-mail Paramount to inform them
>> that since you can't abide by their rules, you will no longer be
>> visiting their site.
>
> [policy snipped]
>
> And just what is wrong with these terms of use? You can't pass the files,
> images or sounds around, nor can you modify them and then do so, you
> can't flame on their message boards, and they're not responsible if
> something damages your computer, and if you send them a submission that
> they insist they don't want and won't accept, you give it to them -- so
> that you can't sue them for coming up with something similar later.
>
> It may just be me, but NONE of this is unreasonable, and none of it is
> especially draconian, either. Submissions becoming the propery of
> Paramount is a method of covering their butts -- because, even after they
> say they don't want submissions and won't look at them, if someone sent
> one they could later sue. (This is a real concern, and why, f'r'instance,
> we have rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated, where story ideas are verboten
> - so that noone will try to do the same to Babylonian.)

Sorry, but better than 90% of that "policy" *should* have gotten the
members of Paramount's legal staff who wrote it *fired*.

They are claiming rights and placing restrictions that are *not*
allowed under copyright law. For example, by their terms, I cannot
include anything I get from their site in a backup of my system,
because that constitutes making a second copy of the item. Likewise,
*viewing* an image involves making a "copy" of the image in video RAM
*and* quite likely a copy in my disk buffers. Copyright law grants the
right to make such archival (backup) and "necessary" (ie requiredby the
operation of the system) copies *regardless* of how the copyright
holder feels about it. In other words, once they let me have a copy, I
can make as many copies as I want, as long as I don't give them to
other people. That's *basic* copyright law, and as I said, it is
*explicitly* stated that it can't be restricted. But they are trying to.

Likewise, they are trying to have it both ways on submissions. What
they want and what the law allows aren't anywhere near each other.

Finally, their attempts to disclaim responsibility are in direct
contradiction of recent court decisions. They *are* responsible for
whether or not their materials violate the laws of the locality in
which the viewer resides. There's a couple of California BBS sysops in
jail for violating *Tennessee* "community standards". 

Likewise, AOL found out that if you excercise "editorial" control (ie
deleting items for any reason other than being notified that they are
illegal) you *are* responsible for the content of messages on your system.

And again, they claim that they aren't responsible if something they
put up may not be legally exported under US law, you are for
downloading it. Again, the matter has already been settled in court. If
they make something available on the Internet, it *is* the same as
exporting it, and if exporting it to some countries is illegal, *they*
are responsible (the lawsuits against the developer of PGP covered this).
The PGP case was *dropped*, not won. So the government did not lose,
and can go after Paramount.

Finally, by not presenting the agreement as the first thing you see and
*requiring* an "I agree" response, they have made their "terms" a
"contract of adhesion". That is, a contract deemed to have been agreed
to by the act of "getting" whatever it is attached to, even though you
haven't seen it first or had a chance to try to negotiate the terms.
Such contracts are almost always *illegal*. Shrink wrap licenses are
*more* legal, simply because you get a chance to look at them before
(allegedly) being bound by them.

Basicly, their legal department is not only *arrogant*, they are
incredibly *ignorant*. And their "terms" are worth the paper they are
printed on. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #809
**********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, January 3 1997       Volume 1996 : Number 810



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Low Tech Ship Maintenance
Re: 21st Century History
Re: Cheap Satellite Comms for Low Tech Countries
Re: Cheap Satellite Comms for Low Tech Countries
Travellerish artwork (M Whelan's website)
Re: Shipboard gas mix (fwd)
Re: Aztec Bowl
Re: Corridor Invasion
Re: NAS Systems
Re: 21st Century History
Newbie
Re: Traveller Answer: Ship Designs 
Re: Aztec Bowl
Re: Interstellar economics (long)
Vorkosigan Rides Again
Re: Travellerish artwork (M Whelan's website)
Re: why the Aztecs lost, side comment
Re: Vorkosigan Rides Again 
JTAS Charges
Where are the Aslan?
Re: Where are the Aslan?
Re: Starship design (and thrust!)

<hr><hr>----------

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 01:17:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Low Tech Ship Maintenance

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) ended his comments about Routine
> Maintenance:
>
>>One the other hand, with a TL-9 ship, you can get the work done almost
>>anywhere, but you may get a few strange looks. "You're flying a *what*?!"
>
> And hence one gets the cliched line from Star Wars: "You came in *that*?
> You're braver than I thought!"

When I eventually get a copy of the design rules (probably have to wait
until NAH), I *fully* intended to design various "low tech" spacecraft.
Both ones that will be used in early space programs (things like what
von Braun and Willy Ley had in "The Conquest of Space") to things that
might still be operating in Imperial backwaters (like a Free Trader wth
a NERVA manuever drive and fission powerplant).

And I may even consider throwing in various "salvaged & refitted"
things. Like a Space Shuttle refitted with a small fusion plant and
jumpdrive. Sure, the pilot doesn't dare *land* the thing anymore. But
he found it in an orbital "junkyard" and tinkered it into a working
ship. He makes enough to live on, and it docks just fine at highports.
(He's modified the attacment points for the External fuel tank to hold
cargo pods of about the same size).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 00:27:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 21st Century History

In mail you write:

>> So given the peak velocity of 20% of c, and the trip duration of 2000
>> years, the trip *must* be between 200 and 400 light years (60 to 125
>> parsecs). That's the way the universe works.
>>
>> So if the trip length is shorter, then either the trip time or the peak
>> velocity is incorrect. Another goof for GDW?
>
> Leonard, don't blame GDW, blame me.  I calculated the 20% of cee as a 
> mean velocity for the entire trip, based on 500 ly range and 2500 year
> flight time; this is from the sector maps and from the arrival date in
> the 4510s given by TCS and half of Regency Sourcebook (a AD 3888 date 
> is given in MegaTraveller, but let's just call that a typo).  Since we 
> don't know how fast the ships accelerated, we don't know the *actual* 
> top speed achieved.  Of course, I could have stated this better in my
> timeline, but I didn't think it would be a bone of contention.  The 
> reason I gave any figure at all was to give the list a *rough* idea of
> the STL speeds in question.

Well, when you up the duration to 2500 years, then 20% of c *does* give
500 light years. 

A handy thing to keep in mind is that 1 g is (roughly) c/year. That is,
after 1 year at 1 g, you'll be at c. This ignores relativity, but it
*does* prove quite useful for figuring "ballpark" times to reach
various fractions of c and various accelerations.

In essence, it means that if the acceleration is more than neglible, it
won't last very long.

Anyway, given 2500 years and 500 light years, we get 20% of c for
"infinite" acceleration. And I get a "minimum" acceleration of 1/3200th
of a g, with a peak velocity of 40% of c. You might want to revise the
timeline accordingly.

Since the tau factor at 40% of c is only .92, I don't think the
corrections are worth figuring. If I had my math books handy, I could
look up how to figure hyperbolic trig functions, so I could calculate
the actual time difference for the whole trip.

BTW. there's a ridiculously *easy* way to figure tau given a calculator
with trig functions. 

Tau = cos(arcsin(v/c)) 
    or
Tau = sin(arccos(v/c))

Or on a calculator:

v </> c <=> <inv><sin><cos>

And if you want gamma instead, just use the 1/x key.

And if (like me) you have trouble remembering whether to do the inverse
or non-inverse function first, there's a quick test problem. At .8 c,
tau is .6. Likewise, at .6 c, tau is .8. So it's *real* easy to plug in
.6 or .8 and jit the keys. If you get the wrong answer, you have the
order of operations backwards. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 01:07:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Cheap Satellite Comms for Low Tech Countries

In mail you write:

> "Without the proper license, it is against Imperial law to sell, to races 
> below TL 5, artifacts more than one tech level above the planet's.  (This
> assumes the world is part of the Imperium and not a Red Zone)."
>
> [World Builder's Handbook, page 14, DGP]
>
> You can sell all the satellite phones you want to any TL 5 world in the
> Imperium. 

And given the *breadth* of the lower TL's *especially* at the low end,
you can make a *large* fortune selling them things that are *at* their
tech level but that they might have taken centuries to think of.

Also, I can *still* sell com services to low tech natives. Just not
satellite phones. Consider: even at pretty low tech levels, things like
heliographs exist and are used for communications, right? Therefore,
all I do is set up some satellites that watch the spots my
"subscribers" are at for flashing lights (either mirrors reflecting
sunlight, or shuttered lanterns). I then flash lights (visible
wavelength lasers, narrowly focused) at the agreed upon destination
sites. 

All I'm doing is *relaying* native signals. I'm not selling them *any*
technology. But I bet I'd get lots of customers. And it'd be *easily*
automated. Just have the computer watch the marked spots with a
telescopic "sight" and sample the brightness at millisecond intervals.
Repeat the variations in the laser. No need for me to know the signals
at all. I just relay what I get.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 00:55:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Cheap Satellite Comms for Low Tech Countries

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) says:
>>visitors if the place has a permanent port.  Selling phones and
>>batteries (or small solar panels) to natives is then a matter of "why
>>not"? It'll bring in some cash, and won't hurt the high tech folks.
>
> Whoa! IISS steps in and immediately says "No can do! That sort of
> communications revolution to the mediaeval or wild west societies you
> mentioned would DRASTICALLY change the entire evolution of a low tech'
> world." If the IISS really did perform any sort of moderation of
> technological development on low tech' worlds (as they do in my games) then
> you wouldn't get this sort of drastic technology mix.

Except that Traveller rather obviously doesn't *have* that sort of
"Prime directive".

And for even more fun, dig up a copy of the Jerry Pournelle story "A
Spaceship for the King" or the novel version "King David's Spaceship".
It's set in his CoDominium/Empire/Second Empire universe. Around the
time of "The Mote in God's Eye".

It has the Second Empire dealing with such things. We have natives from
a re-discovered planet that was up to about WWII tech (they'd launched
*a* V-2 tye rocket in a war that had ended just before being
rediscovered) trying to get their tech level up enough to qualify for
better status in the Empire. 

They've determined that if they can get a manned craft into orbit, they
will be *much* better off. And they've learned (from overheard
comments) that a nearby world with an early medieval tech level has the
*preserved* remains of a Sector Library. 

So they set up a "trading" expedition to see if they can trade anything
with the natives of the other planet. They have to be carried by a
"free trader" type ship, and leave behind items that are too "high
tech" for where they are going. But they fiscover that what the
Imperial Navy thinks of as being the "same" tech level as the natives
is a *lot* more permissive than what *they* would.

> Again, though, this comes down to whether you regard low TL as being
> mediaeval society or just a high tech society with very little manufacturing
> ability (Ducks as argument over meaning of TL start up again).

The story has some fun with TLs. Our heroes introduce a *bunch* of
stuff to the natives without getting caught, and then get in trouble
for something they hadn't even thought about. :-)

And you'll love the "spaceship" they manage to orbit at the end.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Fri, 03 Jan 97 09:34:00 PST
From: Glenn Myers <gem188@ansyspo.ansys.com>
Subject: Travellerish artwork (M Whelan's website)

Hello All,

With all the discussion on artwork recently, I thought
that I would pass along a link to Michael Whelan's gallery.

http://members.aol.com/riyan2/whelan2.htm

This month the showcase is hard science fiction covers.

It includes Chanur's Homecoming and Chanur's Breakout, two
C. J. Cherryh covers which can be used to illustrate Aslan
in a pinch. In the archives are covers for Azimov's
Foundation series.

BTW, I have petitioned the webmaster to put up Michael
Whelan's H. Beam Piper covers. His Space Viking cover has
long been my idea of the Broadsword Merc Cruiser.

Check it out!

Glenn (yes, yet another one)

Glenn Myers
Software Engineer
ANSYS, Inc.
gmyers@ansys.com

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:53:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Shipboard gas mix (fwd)

Hi all,

I am new to the list but had to jump in on this one.

Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Shipboard gas mix
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 23:07:14 PST
> >
> > or just do like the space program, 100% oxygen at 0.2 pressure
> 
> Sorry, but they quit doing that at the end of the Apollo program. They
> use oxygen/nitrogen at normal pressure. They only use straight O2 at 3
> psi for space suits. 

They quit doing this at the BEGINNING of the Apollo program after Apollo 1
burned up during testing on the pad with Deke Slayton and co. They also
re-designed the hatch so that it opens outward instead of inward because
during a fire the increased gas pressure prohibited opening the hatch. After
this incident there was a hiatus in the program while they redesigned the
relevant systems.

> BTW, note that I specified the fire hazard *on the ground* above. In
> free fall, fires need a forced draft to burn (no convection). Plus you
> can dump the atmosphere if things get really bad. 

Provided the fire is small, like a candle. A large fire can cause enough
current to force a convection flow and 'walk' along the fuel (whatever that
might be, say wiring insulation).

I *strongly* suggest against dumping anything in such a situation. After the
immediate crisis is over you will need everything you got to get back.
Remember Apollo 13!

The First Rule of Space Survival:

ALWAYS(!) let the guy behind you know what killed you.

> But given the artifical gravity in Traveller, a pure oxtgen atmosphere
> is a deathtrap. Consider what happened in the Apollo 1 fire. Three
> trained test pilot types. And the fire hit them so fast that only *one*
> of them had time to say *anything* over the comm link. 

'trained test pilot'? They were astronauts, Deke Slayton is the astronaut
whose Mercury capsule sank on him because explosive bolts went off
prematurely. They redesigned the Mercury hatch that time too.

The fire burned for several minutes, all 3 of them were alive during the
conflagration for quite a while. There were several exchanges between
cap-com and the cm during that time.

> Likerwise, one spark and a stateroom with a pure O2 atmosphere would be
> "fully involved" in *seconds*. And an awful lot of structural materials
> (iron, aluminum, titanium, plastics, composites, etc) will burn
> *violently* in a pure oxygen atmosphere. 

If you were standing in a room with no exposed fuel the spark would do
nothing. What caused the Apollo fire was the oxygen atmosphere, poorly
designed egress hatch, poor choice of wiring, use of unsealed relays and
switches. Apparently what happened was a relay or switch (the exact source
was never determined) which toggled state. When it did there was a spark 
emitted. There was apparently some wiring within a inch of so and it was
ignited by that spark. Voila, a fire.

Hope this helps.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:58:37 -0500 (EST)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Aztec Bowl

> It used to be stated that the losing team was sacrificed. But finally
> the evidence became overwhelming enough to get past Western cultural
> preconceptions. It was the *winning* team that was sacrificed.

Actually, it varied.  And sometimes neither team got sacrificed, but the
winners won all of the spectators' clothes and jewelry.  (Imagine *that*
at the Super Bowl... ;-)

Joe "I saw the ball court at Chichen Itza before I ever saw a pro
   baseball game" Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:14:57 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Corridor Invasion

Chris Cox asked:

> One other thing, how do we know that the Vargr tech level tops out at 13 and
> how do we know the this applies to the governments of the Provence sector?

For one thing, there's that lovely tech-16 world in Gvurrdon; admittedly,
it doesn't have a usefully high population, but Vargr technology tends to
be all over the board anyway....

Is it possible we're missing something here that makes it easier for the
Vargr to invade than humans?  Here's a couple of ideas:

  * One thing TCS didn't cover was commercial shipping.  It assumed that
    all those ships were military.  We've talked a lot on this list about
    the need for 100,000 d-ton jump-4 civilian bulk carriers traveling 
    the xboat routes in the Imperium.  Imperial practice is not to arm
    these ships very heavily, and use the Navy to protect them.  In the
    Extents, I'd expect this shipping to be more heavily armed in general.
    This might allow Vargr commercial vehicles to be pressed into service
    as oversized light combatants -- and they might be convertible into
    something heavier at need.  You'd need them anyway, to bring supplies
    in and haul out booty.  (Which raises the question, what booty makes
    this sort of invasion worthwhile?  The Vargr aren't dumb.  Of course,
    they could just be getting even for the Vargr Campaigns....) :)  

  * Would it make a difference if the RVE were quietly supporting the
    Vargr?  (Do they have a reason to want to?)  Or Deneb?  How much
    support would be needed to make a difference?

  * How much of the population of Corridor is Vargr?  I'm not implying
    that the Corridor Vargr like the Provence Vargr -- they've been 
    Imperial for 800 years.  No, I'm wondering if Lucan lost enough
    charisma for pulling out too much of their fleet (and for being
    questionable as Emperor) that we're seeing some sort of secession
    or internal turmoil that's gotten overlooked by the human reporters
    in the general chaos of the situation.  That could hamper the
    Imperial defense some.  On the other hand, is it possible that 
    some human governments have *caused* turmoil by assuming without
    cause that their Vargr citizens are disloyal, and treating them
    as the enemy?  I doubt this is much of an issue, but it certainly
    is something to think about.

  * Do the Utuvogh tirades make Vargr more comfortable with sending a
    greater percentage of their raiding fleet into the Imperium?  One
    thing to remember is that even if the Imperium has enough force 
    to defend in spots, they can't launch reprisals right now, either.
    Other Vargr governments might be able to if they were targeted.

  * Is it possible to close Corridor just by blockading most of the 
    high-population worlds?  In other words, can the Vargr dominate
    the low-population worlds and cut off travel, leaving the high
    pop worlds alone?  This might cause most of the effects that 
    are observed in Established History, except damage to high-pop
    worlds.

  * This doesn't explain Depot.  But the Vargr like pack attacks.  Depot
    is an obvious prize.  Assuming the Vargr could manage to get this
    organized, what would happen if even 75% of the invading fleet that
    Provence might support could hit Depot at once, in 1118 (before much
    construction could be finished)?  Could smaller, but similar attacks
    on a massive scale work on a high-population world?  Admittedly, we
    have some evidence that the Vargr were allowed to take Depot mostly
    intact, but we also have evidence that this is the sort of strategy
    they used.

In fact, this last idea merits a closer look.  The Imperial defensive
problem is to hold Corridor; failing that, the high-population worlds
and the xboat line.  They have to spread out whatever force they have
to cover a number of potential targets.  The Vargr are a raiding force.
They can pick and choose their targets.  They aren't trying to hold
territory, but will if it's feasible and/or in their interest.  They
can wilderness refuel, and carry other provisions as necessary; they
only return to base after an extended cruise.  Under this theory, the
Vargr aren't everywhere -- many, if not most systems are clear, but
the chances are good that eventually you'll run into a Vargr battle
fleet that's too big to handle.  And I have this suspicion that unlike
the Zhodani, the Vargr don't trust to supply lines, but carry most of
the supplies they need with the fleet, and scavenge in the field for
what they can't carry.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>

<hr>

Date: 3 Jan 97 11:42:08 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Re: NAS Systems

	
>Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 21:03:58 -0800
>From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
>Subject: Re: Surveillance and Intelligence Sensor Suites
>
>Jeff Kazmierski wrote:
>> 
>> All Surveillance suites include the following equipment:
>>
>>         1xNeural Activity Sensor (TL-13+)
>
>Why this item? Even at TL20 (that's right, _twenty_), a NAS has a short
>range of 50km, making it effectively useless beyond far orbit. And at
>far orbit distances, any spook ship sticks out like a sore thumb every
>time it occults the background star field.
>
I agree.  NAS units below TL-20 are completely worthless.  I only included
them in the list because they're part of the Exploration/Survey sensor
suites in Starships.  Don't include them, if you don't want to (I'll
probably ignore them too); the power, volume, mass and price are all
negligible.

According to FF&S, the TL-20 NAS only has a short range of 50km, making its
long range 400km - not even Far Orbital distances.  As starship sensors,
these things are useless. 
	"Contact! 100 klicks, sir!" 
	"No shit.  Look out the window, ensign."

Jeff Kazmierski
- <hr>---------------------------
                +
                |\      "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________
        odysseus@novia.net
  http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/
- <hr>---------------------------

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 97 18:01 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: 21st Century History

In-Reply-To: <32cb6608.47081774@mail.Direct.CA>

<< > and there, and the folks with the Cray computers would eventually  
figure
> out what they mean.

Maybe not... SGI bought out Cray earlier last year... Oooww! >>

Last I heard, SGI boxes were out-performing Crays anyway.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 18:32:03 +0000
From: Paul Clay <PaulClay@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Newbie

Is there anyone running a game out there?  I played under the original
rules, even tried GMing a little and always thought Traveller was under
rated by the gaming public.  When I signed up on this list a few days ago I
didn't realize the amount of fanaticism there was for this game.  Let me
know if I can join in and play, thanks.  Paul

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 13:36:46 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Answer: Ship Designs 

In a message dated 97-01-03 00:12:23 EST, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> ...Jeffries Tubes, or equivalent.

Don't you mean "Jeffries Tubes (tm)"?  ;-)

Stealing a glance over my shoulder making sure no litigious megacorps lurk,

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, Ignorance."--- Socrates

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 13:36:56 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Aztec Bowl

In a message dated 97-01-03 11:00:44 EST, Joseph M. Saul wrote:

> Actually, it varied.  And sometimes neither team got sacrificed, but the
>  winners won all of the spectators' clothes and jewelry.  (Imagine *that*
>  at the Super Bowl... ;-)


Actually, during my New Year's Day celebrating I could have sworn Lloyd Carr
gave Gene Stallings his pants.  Must have just been my imagination.  (That
game was played at 9am MST, and already I was hallucinating.  Further
evidence not to trust my New Year's Day posts overly much.)  BTW, I didn't
see highlights of the Aztec Bowl on ESPN; who won? ;-)


Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, Ignorance."--- Socrates

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 13:36:54 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Interstellar economics (long)

In a message dated 97-01-03 09:03:50 EST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> No. Money is real. It's just not *tangible*. And even with a gold
>  standard, the worth is *still* arbitrary. If you have a gold standard,
>  and I suddenly figure out how to produce gold for pennies per ton, have
>  I *really* changed the amount of wealth available? No. But it'll ruin
>  your economy because most people don't understand that *all* money is
>  just a way of "keeping score". 

I should have avoided my computer like the plague on January 1st.  As I
posted previously, my New Year's celebration was...er...um...*intense* on the
first.  I posted my messages late at night, after a *long* day of football
and alcohol (which, it occurs to me, would be a great title for a country &
western tune: "Football and alcohol leads me to sin, settin' in my La-Z-Boy,
fillin' my pigskin...").  "The opinions expressed in such posts in no way
reflect the understanding or opinions of the *AUTHOR*"  ;-)

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, Ignorance."--- Socrates

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 13:37:00 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Vorkosigan Rides Again

Help!  Somebody posted a URL a while back for sites related to Lois McMaster
Bujold's Vorkosigan series (my personal favorite, most Traveller-like
series).  I lost the post, and the URL.  Anyone know what it is?

Thanks,

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, Ignorance."--- Socrates

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:49:17 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Travellerish artwork (M Whelan's website)

>With all the discussion on artwork recently, I thought
>that I would pass along a link to Michael Whelan's gallery.

Excellent stuff in the gallery!  I especially like Chanar's Breakout, which
could be a perfect cover for the Aslan sourcebook.  Also, I thought Trouble
with Tycho was especilly well done as well.


_________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
          "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
Traveller, IG, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
            http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- <hr><hr>----
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, and the LOWEST prices on the web

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 13:01:53 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: why the Aztecs lost, side comment

On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Neil Simpson wrote:

> Neveron@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > Catwalk: ROTFL (through my stiff upper lip of course)What does ROTFL mean?
> 
ROTFL = Roll On The Floor Laughing
ROFL = Roll On Floor Laughing
LOL = Laugh Out Loud

These are some of the toughest to figure out, cause sometimes the context
is pretty thin (such as now).

Pete - Who took a really long time to get the guts to ask what ROFL meant  
himself.
 

<hr>

Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 14:58:15 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Subject: Re: Vorkosigan Rides Again 

There's a good web page on Bujold at

	http://www.herald.co.uk/%7Edendarii/

Earl Wajenberg

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:18:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: JTAS Charges

Hi,

Just a quick announcement:

Imperium Games is now reversing all of the JTAS shipping charges.  There 
will be no shipping charge for JTAS subscriptions.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

<hr>

Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 16:27:49 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Where are the Aslan?

Anybody know when IG plans to come up with an Alien supplement that details
the Aslans?

TIA,

 James Garriss                   http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   
 Systems Engineer, MITRE                  jpg@langley.mitre.org
       "If someone with multiple personalities threatens to 
       kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?"
                          Stephen Wright

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 15:41:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Where are the Aslan?

On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, James Garriss wrote:

> Anybody know when IG plans to come up with an Alien supplement that details
> the Aslans?

Last I heard, they would be detailed during the Milieu 200 period (Aslan 
Border Wars).  As to when they'll have Milieu 200 out, I have heard no 
projected date.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:20:43 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship design (and thrust!)

Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi> wrote:

>        Note that if accurate thrust calculations are used, the
>        ship design process will involve much iteration and fine-
>        tuning since the total ship mass will change all the time.
>        This can be easily done with a spreadsheet, but I would
>        not like to do it with pen and paper.

It's bad, but not too bad.  The worst part is dealing with incidentals
like crew, but for small ships it's managable.  Ideally, it would take
two run throughs -- once to find out how far you're off, and the second
to make corrections.  Practically, you run into trouble if your initial
figures were far enough off that you need to add a lot of crew.

One thing to try involves increasing the drive size.  If you can figure
out how much mass in drives you need to add to get a certain amount of
thrust, then you can skip over a lot of tweaking.  Here's an example:

  You have a 400 d-ton (5600 m^3) ship of 6500 tonnes, with a 16 ktonne
  thrust fusion rocket (trying to get 4G thrust, using SSDS guidelines).
  You shave it to 6000 tonnes by removing equipment.  To get four gee,
  you still need (6000*4)-16000 = 8000 ktonnes thrust.  However, to add
  thrust, you need to add drive mass, so you can't just buy an 8000 kt
  thrust fusion rocket to fix this.  According to the table, for 900
  tonnes thrust, you need 100 tonnes of rocket, at 1 tonne/m^3.

  What are you stealing volume from to fit the drive?  If it's cargo,
  and that mass figure above is the *loaded* mass, the cargo and the
  drive that you're replacing it with has the same mass, and you can
  just install an 8000 ktonne, 889 m^3 drive.  If it's something with
  a density above 1 tonne/m^3, you're home free; install the 889 m^3
  drive, and you'll get more acceleration than your target spec.

  If it's fuel, or something else with a lower density than the drive,
  (here, 1 tonne/m^3) you need to do more work.  Let's say it's fuel,
  and let's pretend fuel tank volume has a density of 0 tonne/m^3 --
  worst case situation.  So, for every 900 tonnes of thrust you want
  to add, you need to accelerate an additional 100 tonnes of mass. 
  For four gee, you lose 400 tonnes for every 900; so you only get
  500 tonnes additional thrust for every 100 m^3 of rocket.  So to
  add 8000 tonnes of thrust, you need 8000/500 == 16 * 100 m^3 or
  1600 m^3 of fusion rocket.  

  In reality, this gets you 14.4 ktonnes of thrust (total 30.4 ktonnes
  thrust) adds 1600 tonnes of fusion rocket (increasing the ship's
  loaded mass to 7600 tonnes) which gives you an acceleration of 
  30400/7600 == 4 gee.  You lose 1600 m^3 of fuel.  [I have a feeling
  this wouldn't be a viable design, but it's only a model.  Shhhhh!
  In fact, this illustrates why HEPlaR has advantages over the fusion
  rocket, in spite of the worse HEPlaR fuel economy.]

  If you are doing this with HEPlaR, thrusters, or CG, or using the 
  excess power from a fusion rocket, you have make a powerplant that
  is powerful enough to run the drive and include its' mass in your
  figures.  For instance, a tech-10 HEPlaR drive with 20000 tonnes of
  thrust masses 100 tonnes, *plus* the 2000 tonnes of fusion reactor
  to power it, for a total of 2100 tonnes of drive for each and every
  20000 tonnes of thrust you add, in order to get the figures to work.  
  
  In addition, there's the other support requirements; crew and so on.
  If you still have volume to burn, as long as the volume that you're
  stealing is about the same density as the support equipment (the
  staterooms and so on), you'll come out pretty close to okay.  It's
  best if your first estimate comes out close.  If the size of the
  thruster is far too low for the ship, it may be better to take a 
  look at where your design went wrong and start over with a scaled
  back version; what is contributing to your mass problem?  Tweaking
  a design that is too far out-of-whack isn't worth it -- it's better
  to use it to learn what components contribute to mass so you can
  start with more realistic assumptions next time.

  For instance, no matter how much fusion rocket you shove into a ship,
  you can't get over nine gee -- 100 tonnes of fusion rocket pushes out
  only 900 tonnes of thrust, so even before you shove fuel, hull, or
  anything else around, you only get 900/100 == 9 gee.  It's a drive
  with great fuel economy, but not great acceleration.  The tech-10
  fusion-powered HEPlaR drive above can push itself at 9.5+ gee, and
  this improves as power generators lighten; but it eats fuel at a
  much faster rate.  
 
  I hope this is at all useful.  This process might be simpler if the
  power requirements were part of the drive, but then you'd need to
  have tables for CG, thrusters, and HEPlaR at each tech level and
  type of power generation, which would get *very* cumbersome.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
 

<hr>

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #810
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, January 4 1997      Volume 1996 : Number 811



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

a clarification
Bye
Ship construction system
another clarification
Re: Heat Tolerance in Starships
Re: Interstellar economics (Not!)
T4: Noble Character generation
Re: JTAS Charges
Re: Jim's GALAXY program
Re: Travellerish artwork (M Whelan's website)
[Traveller Answer] Starship Controls
Re: [Traveller Answer] Starship Controls
GRG products
Re: GRG products
Re: NAS Systems
January Traveller Contest
3G3 Hardback

<hr><hr>----------

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:30:30 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: a clarification

A clarification:

>  If you are doing this with HEPlaR, thrusters, or CG, or using the
>  excess power from a fusion rocket, you have make a powerplant that
>  is powerful enough to run the drive and include its' mass in your
>  figures. 

Of course, in the case of the fusion drive you might be able to *save*
some mass by removing power plant.  Since it's only available when the
drive is running, you might not want to do this.  If you don't mind, you 
could subtract some power plant tonnage, but hopefully you get the 
general idea.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 18:12:06 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: Bye

I first encountered Traveller back in the CT era, and fell in love with it.
I'd have liked to find more people that shared my interest, more money, and
more time. I missed most of MT, liked a lot of TNE, and I was very
disappointed when GDW went down. I didn't know Traveller was still alive
until I joined this list. Whatever its flaws, I still love it.
I don't know if it's wise for a newbie to jump in with both feet like I
did, but it's been fun.
Unfortunately...the real world intrudes. I hate to just disappear without a
word of thanks to everybody who's found my notes interesting enough to
provoke a response.

I'm interested in play by e-mail, if someone can e-mail me information on
how to find such groups.

Keep the Flame,   Long Live Traveller!

Thad Coons
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sapience/

  

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 18:12:15 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: Ship construction system

After the extensive discussions of ship construction rates and times, I
thought I'd leave on a *constructive* note. This system incorporates my
thoughts on the need for the size and cost of a ship to be factors in
construction rates and times.
These numbers are based on figures from TNE: World Tamer's guide, 
and partly on information from TCS as provided by Hans Rancke and Hichael
Nutt. Thanks to these two especially for their contributions, and for
challenging me to come up with numbers. Thanks also to others who have
contributed to the discussion.

World Shipbuilding capacity:
5 workers per thousand world population (subject to whatever modifiers are
appropriate)

TL     Productivity (Cr per worker per week)
   7      250
   8      375
   9      500
  10      625
  11      750
  12      875 
  13     1000
  14     1125
  15     1250

Multiply (number of workers) * (productivity) * (50 weeks) to get annual
shipbuilding capacity in Cr.

Now, take the Cr of capacity devoted to building a given class of ship,
and divide by the cost of a ship of that class, to get production rate in
ships per year.

The concentration of workers that can be usefully employed at the same time
decreases with increasing size of the ship, due to various bottlenecks in
production.

    Size of ship  Normal maximum workers per Displacement ton
     1-    100 T    12
   101-    300 T    11
   301-   1000 T    10
  1001-   3000 T     9
  3001-  10000 T     8
 10001-  30000 T     7
 30001- 100000 T     6
100001- 300000 T     5
300001-1000000 T     4

This maximum can be at increased at a cost of 10% of the ship cost for each
additional worker per ton. 
Workers may be decreased below this maximum at no cost.
These workers are not only shipyard workers, but include those employed in
manufacturing and transporting the ship's components and materials.

Increasing the number of workers per ton shortens construction time, 
while decreasing it lengthens construction time.

Ship cost / (productivity * workers per ton * size of ship in tons) =
ship construction time in weeks.

50 weeks per year / (ships per year * construction time in weeks) = number
of ships under construction at a given time.

Thad Coons
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sapience/


 

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 18:10:14 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: another clarification

Erg.  Typos, typos, typos....

I said:

>  You shave it to 6000 tonnes by removing equipment.  To get four gee,
>  you still need (6000*4)-16000 = 8000 ktonnes thrust.  However, to add
                                        ^^^^^^^
>  thrust, you need to add drive mass, so you can't just buy an 8000 kt
                                                                     ^^
[...]
>  What are you stealing volume from to fit the drive?  If it's cargo,
>  and that mass figure above is the *loaded* mass, the cargo and the
>  drive that you're replacing it with has the same mass, and you can
>  just install an 8000 ktonne, 889 m^3 drive. 
                        ^^^^^^
That's 8000 *tonnes*, or 8 ktonnes.  I hope that what I *meant* is clear
in context, not what I said.  (I'm just too tired today to be writing
these off the top of my head.) 

I think the rest of the discussion should be bug-free.  I think.

  -- Steve

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 97 11:16:22 
From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Subject: Re: Heat Tolerance in Starships

On Jan 1 Leonard wrote:
> In mail, jamesd@spirit.com.au writes:
> >   At what temperature will a 'normal' starship's environmental controls
> > break down? At what temperature will the hull start to react to the heat?
>
> So the critical factor is how much energy per unit time the ships
> systems can get rid of via the radiators of the side of the ship facing
> away from the star. you take that value, subtract the waste energy
> generated inside the ship, and the result is the amount of extra energy
> the ship can handle.
[snip]
> ps. The *real* problem is that Traveller ignores the fact that ships
> have to get rid of excess heat.

  True. So to make any progress, we would have to assume that the 
features for getting rid of waste heat are included as standard. Using 
that assumption, then what sort of result do we get? What sort of 
capacity does/did the Space Shuttle or the Apollo rockets have to get rid 
of excess energy?

> The above applies to a ship in space. If it is in an atmosphere, or on
> a planetary (or even asteroid) surface things get more complicated.
>
  So if the ship was to land on a planet similar to Mercury (ie close to
the star and no atmosphere), what would the result be? On the dark side,
they would only really have to worry about the planetary effects - latent
temp etc. On the light side, would they have to deal with any difference
than in space?

James Dempsey
- <hr>---------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd

<hr>

Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 17:45:32 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Interstellar economics (Not!)

At 08:43 PM 1/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
>TPeterAZ@aol.com wrote:
>> Eh, heh-heh, um...oops.  I must apologize.  I read your post, and composed my
>> reply, following my Fifth Annual New Year's Day Drunken Football Orgy (TM).
>
>Is it true that this event was hosted by Paramount to celebrate its
>takeover of the TML?
>
>>  Here in the States it is not uncommon for louts such as myself to celebrate
>> the New Year by imbibing truly disgusting quantities of alcohol while
>> screaming at the University of Michigan football team to crush Alabama (damn,
>> no such luck), Arizona State to maim Ohio State (double-damn!  Oh, how I hate
>> Ohio State!), and Penn State to humiliate Texas (well, one out of three isn't
>> altogether horrible).
>
>I resent this remark. Those of us in Texas can do just fine *without*
>Penn State's help. [g]
>
You overlook the true tragedy!  ARMY LOST!!  My beloved Cadets, struck down
on the very edge of immortality!  It struck my soul so hard, I immeddiately
needed to be hospitalized for a few days to sort myself out (for pneumonia,
actually..)

Ah, well there's still the 49ers... SMASH GREEN BAY!!!!!!!

+<hr>-----------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+<hr>-----------------------+

<hr>

Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 14:47:48 +1100
From: Peter Hurley <fantomas@connexus.apana.org.au>
Subject: T4: Noble Character generation

Could someone please explain to me the benefit (besides an extra skill) of
promotion for Nobles. It can't be for title, since anyone with the Social
Standing gets the equiv title.

Thanks
PeteH

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 22:09:09 -0600
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Re: JTAS Charges

>Hi,
>
>Just a quick announcement:
>
>Imperium Games is now reversing all of the JTAS shipping charges.  There
>will be no shipping charge for JTAS subscriptions.
>
>
>- -Joe

Since I've spent a fair amount of time criticizing IG, I, for one, would
like to congratulate them on a very good decision. Huzzah!

John Kovalic



********************************************************
           "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --
*
*              MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
*
********************************************************

<hr>

Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 20:27:33 -0800
From: The Orcslayer <rguy@cdsnet.net>
Subject: Re: Jim's GALAXY program

Zane H. Healy wrote:
> 
> >I just downloaded a copy of Jim Vassilakos' GALAXY program and I must say
> >it is just plain AWESOME! It's the best thing to happen to Traveller refs
> >since the birth of Marc Miller!
> 
> OK, I'll bite.  Where and what computer platform?
> 

Sorry, guess I left that part out! It's for DOS systems but it includes 
quickbasic sourcecode so it could possibly be converted to other systems. 
it's at:

http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/

********************************************************
		       "RUNAWAY!"
********************************************************
Joe Hamrick                              rguy@cdsnet.net
Homepage       http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/8701

<hr>

Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 21:00:28 -0800
From: The Orcslayer <rguy@cdsnet.net>
Subject: Re: Travellerish artwork (M Whelan's website)

Glenn Myers wrote:
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> With all the discussion on artwork recently, I thought
> that I would pass along a link to Michael Whelan's gallery.
> 
> http://members.aol.com/riyan2/whelan2.htm
> 
> This month the showcase is hard science fiction covers.
> 
> It includes Chanur's Homecoming and Chanur's Breakout, two
> C. J. Cherryh covers which can be used to illustrate Aslan
> in a pinch. In the archives are covers for Azimov's
> Foundation series.
> 
> BTW, I have petitioned the webmaster to put up Michael
> Whelan's H. Beam Piper covers. His Space Viking cover has
> long been my idea of the Broadsword Merc Cruiser.
> 
> Check it out!

Not to get off topic but Whelan's Elric covers were great too!

- -- 
********************************************************
		       "RUNAWAY!"
********************************************************
Joe Hamrick                              rguy@cdsnet.net
Homepage       http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/8701

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 97 00:11:42 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: [Traveller Answer] Starship Controls

Chip Wright <ruwright@InfoAve.Net> asked:
> Regarding the QSDS, does anyone understand why anyone would buy any
> controls other than the TL9 variety, considering the cost of the more
> advanced systems, and the fact that there is apparently no requirement or
> advantage to having the higher TL controls.

Thank you for asking - this is an area that's not adequately explained in
QSDS.  The assumption in QSDS is that the TL of the controls that determines
the TL of the ship.  Instead of thinking of it as putting TL-9 controls
in a TL-12 ship, you're putting TL-12 components in a TL-9 ship.  The next
revision of QSDS will have an improved explanation of this (thank you!).


The TL of the controls determines the effective TL of the ship.  Any
higher or lower TL components may be installed (if available), with the
following exceptions:

The sensors must be from the SAME TL as the controls.

Jump drives must be of the same or lower TL as the controls (thus, a ship
with TL-9 controls could only install a J-1 drive).

All installed crew workstations (including bridge workstations)
must be from the SAME TL as the controls.  Note that the workstation
chart lists the controls by TL of introduction - use the TL-10 line for
TL-11, and the TL-12 line for TL-12+.

Military weapons and MFDs must be from the same or lower TL as the
controls.  If weapons or MFDs of a lower TL are installed, use this (lower)
TL when computing the ship's fire-control rating.  Civilian weapons
are not restricted, since they lack the sophisticated computer-driven
fire-direction equipment.  Ships that mount civilian weapons always have a
fire-control rating of 0.

In addition to the above restrictions, the control TL determines the maximum
safe NOE (nap-of-the-earth, or terrain-following) speed.  The maximum safe
NOE speed at TL-8 is 120 kph.  Each TL above 8 adds 10 kph to the safe
speed, up to TL-16.


> Shouldn't the more expensive models be required for control on larger ships,
> rather than rated by TL?  Am I missing something here?

The term "controls" is a misnomer, added to the section during editing.
The equipment is really what FF&S (GDW's _Fire, Fusion, and Steel_ - the
base from which QSDS was created) calles the flight avionics, terrain-following
avionics, navigational aids, and computers.  Related equipment, called
"controls" in FF&S, does depend on the size of the ship as well as TL.  The
cost (and volume, and power consumption) of this equipment is included in
the QSDS hull calculations that produced the hull table.

> Regarding the SSDS, as printed in T4's "Starships", the TL12 Minimal
> Electronics Package costs 13.11 MCr (ouch!), while the much more effective
> TL12 Standard Civilian Electronics Package costs "only" 12.05 MCr (ouch
> again!).

That appears to be what's written in _Starships_, and matches the
pre-publication draft I got as well.  Going from what's supposed to be
included, I get (minor discrepancies should be ignored, since I may choose
slightly different options than Dave did):
The Minimal package contains:
1 3,000km Radio (.005MCr)
1 3,000km Active EMS (3.2MCr)
1 30,000km Passive EMS (0.65MCr)
3 Standard computers (9MCr)
1 Flight Avionics (0.289MCr)
for a total of 13.144MCr.

The Standard Civilian package contains:
1 30,000km Radio (.03MCr)
1 30,000km Maser (.036MCr)
1 30,000km Active EMS (4.4MCr)
1 60,000km Passive EMS (1.3MCr)
3 Standard computers (9MCr)
1 Flight Avionics (0.289MCr)
for a total of 15.055MCr.

It's probably a typo in transcribing data on the standard civilian table.

> I'm trying to design an inexpensive ship and it can't be done...

> not even the Scout/Courier listed in the book can be built using SSDS for
> 21.75 MCr.

Don't forget that there's a discount for "standard" designs.  In addition,
some of the ship designs in the _Starships_ book were designed using QSDS,
which offers a larger discount, and has an error such that some drives cost
considerably less than they "should".

> At least with QSDS, I can outfit my ship with this stuff for
> only 9.0 MCr (TL9 Civilian Controls - 2.0 MCr; TL12 Basic Sensors - 6.8
> MCr; TL12 Basic Commo - 0.2 MC2; Note: And of course on my TL12 ship I'm
> gonna install the TL9 Controls and save 7.2 MCr, since the TL12 controls
> don't do anything better anyway; see Gripe #1 above).

See my reply above; you'll have to use the TL-12 controls, or use TL-9
sensors (which eat up most of your savings).


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- <hr><hr>------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

<hr>

Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 01:41:50 -0600
From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answer] Starship Controls

At 12:11 AM 1/4/97 -0500, Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> wrote:
>Chip Wright <ruwright@InfoAve.Net> asked:
>> Regarding the QSDS, does anyone understand why anyone would buy any
>> controls other than the TL9 variety, considering the cost of the more
>> advanced systems, and the fact that there is apparently no requirement or
>> advantage to having the higher TL controls.
>
>Thank you for asking - this is an area that's not adequately explained in
>QSDS.  The assumption in QSDS is that the TL of the controls that determines
>the TL of the ship.  Instead of thinking of it as putting TL-9 controls
>in a TL-12 ship, you're putting TL-12 components in a TL-9 ship.  The next
>revision of QSDS will have an improved explanation of this (thank you!).
>
>
>The TL of the controls determines the effective TL of the ship.  Any
>higher or lower TL components may be installed (if available), with the
>following exceptions:
>
>The sensors must be from the SAME TL as the controls.
>

Why is this so? Is it a massive handwaving, or some obtuse logic been placed
behind it. A 1977 Ford car has the same analog controls(gauges) as 1933
Ford. A 1997 automobile can do with out computer controlled fuel injection
etc, very well, it just has to designed to do without.

>Jump drives must be of the same or lower TL as the controls (thus, a ship
>with TL-9 controls could only install a J-1 drive).
>
>All installed crew workstations (including bridge workstations)
>must be from the SAME TL as the controls.  Note that the workstation
>chart lists the controls by TL of introduction - use the TL-10 line for
>TL-11, and the TL-12 line for TL-12+.
>
>Military weapons and MFDs must be from the same or lower TL as the
>controls.  If weapons or MFDs of a lower TL are installed, use this (lower)
>TL when computing the ship's fire-control rating.  Civilian weapons
>are not restricted, since they lack the sophisticated computer-driven
>fire-direction equipment.  Ships that mount civilian weapons always have a
>fire-control rating of 0.
>

Hmmmmm.. Define a military weapon and civilian ones. Is what you are saying
is that a laser turret mounted on a trader has FC rating of 0 and a laser
turret mounted on patrol cruiser a greater than zero FC rating? If I am
arming a trader why are the costs the same for arming the patrol cruiser? Is
what you are saying the patrol cruiser get more bang for its buck? Well if
that is true, hello black market.

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net
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<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 00:26:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: GRG products

Hi,

Just went to the GRG page (http://members.aol.com/goldrushg/) and, under
their 'product release schedule' I found the following interesting entries:

- <hr><hr>--------------------
Traveller: New Voyages Vol. 1: The Kargol Confederation

The Kargol Confederation is the first in our series of licensed books for
use with Marc Miller's Traveller. This sourcebook details a sub-sector of space
controlled by the Kargol Confederation, an alliance of several powerful
worlds. Included are new minor alien races, starships, NPCs and adventure seeds
for use in your Traveller campaign and can be used in any Milleu. Written by
John Snead. Cover and interior artists to be announced. 

     Stock #: TR100

     Retail Price: $16.00

     Size: 96 Pages

     Release: Second Quarter, 1997
- <hr><hr>--------------------
Traveller: New Voyages Vol. 2: Derelict!

Derelict! is the second in our series of licensed books for use with Marc
Miller's Traveller. It features three linked adventures usable in any era, which
may be played individually or as a serial campaign. Derelict! puts the PCs
in the midst of an investigation involving a derelict spacecraft and a deadly
toxin. Includes new ships, NPCs and equipment for your Traveller campaign.
Written by Joseph Nassise. Cover and interior artists to be announced. 

     Stock #: TR101

     Retail Price: $16.00

     Size: 96 Pages

     Release: Third Quarter, 1997
- <hr><hr>--------------------
Traveller: New Voyages Vol. 3: The Pheonix Foundation

The Pheonix Foundation is the third in our series of licensed books for use
with Marc Miller's Traveller. It features several adventures usable in any
Milleu, which may be played individually or as a serial campaign. Written by
John Kovalic. Cover and interior artists to be announced. 

     Stock #: TR102

     Retail Price: $16.00

     Size: 96 Pages

     Release: Fourth Quarter, 1997
- <hr><hr>--------------------

Hmmm...those look like good, generic adventures suitable for anything, and,
the price is very appealing too, $16 for 96 pages which isn't too bad.
Also, the speed of production is quite good, one product per three months
for a small company isn't too bad.


__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- <hr><hr>----
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 04:30:53 -0500
From: Strnger357@aol.com
Subject: Re: GRG products

I guess we'll just have to wait and see the quality.

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 97 13:27 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: NAS Systems

In-Reply-To: <AEF2A127-110E72@208.4.63.10>

<< According to FF&S, the TL-20 NAS only has a short range of 50km, 
making its long range 400km - not even Far Orbital distances.  As 
starship sensors, these things are useless. >>

They make more sense as vehicle or man-portable sensors. One starship 
use is to locate the crew of a hostile ship before you board it.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 07:36:56 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: January Traveller Contest

Hi,

This month's contest involves starship design, and it will be judged by 
Guy "Wildstar" Garnett.  The constraints on the designs are laid out 
below.  As usual, send your entry to me (ransom@iconnect.net), and I'll 
strip the header and forward it to Guy.  As it says below, entries are 
due by January 31.  The contest winner will be announced on February 1.  
Although there are some specific design specifications laid out below, 
keep in mind that Guy is the sole judge of what constitutes a winning 
vessel, and that his decisions are final.  Oh, and please put "contest" 
in the subject line of your entry so I don't miss it. :)

The prize for this contest is a copy of _Central Supply Catalog_ (but if 
you want another book - say, if M0 is out by the time the contest is over 
- - the winner can negotiate for another book after winning).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Ship Design Contest!

You play the role of the chief designer of a major shipyard.  You have to
respond to the Scout Service's request for proposals (below) with a complete
ship design for a vessel that meeds the mission requirements.  If it's
impossible to meet the requirements, the ship should meet as many as possible,
and the notes should explain which ones weren't met, and why.

You can design the ship using either QSDS or SSDS, but be sure to note which
system was used, so that the designs can be checked for accuracy.  Double
check your math, because illegal designs may be disqualified.

There's no need for deckplans; the designs will be judged solely on the USP
and the accompanying descriptive text.

The Scout Service assumes that the ship's active lifetime will be 50 years,
with at least one refit to update equipment before the ship is retired.  They
will judge the total cost of operating the ship for 50 years (including
purchase price, maintainance, and crew costs).  The lowest-cost ship that
meets all of the requirements will probably win the competition.

All designs should be suitable for Milieu 0.  Since the IISS is an Imperial
service, equipment up to TL-12 can be used.  Small craft and vehicles
can be custom-designed for this ship, or standard designs can be
specified (from the basic rulebook, or from _Starships_ or the _Central Supply
Catalog_).

Be sure that your notes and other descriptive text points out the unique
features of your design.  Be creative!

Day 031 is January 31st, so don't wait!


Agency: Imperial Interstellar Scout Service, Bureau of Ships
Request for Proposal: IISS/BuShips RFP-90037/03x7

The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service, Office of Exploratrion, has issued
requirement number MIL-TD/41 for an exploration and recontact starship.
BuShips requests that all interested shipyards submit detailed proposals that
meet this requirement no later than Day 031.  An IISS evaluation team will
examine the proposals, and announce the winer by Day 032.  The successful
design will be practical to construct with current starship building
technology and shipyards, meet all of the requirements listed below, and
have the lowest full-lifecycle costs to the IISS.  The evaluation team will
take into consideration any special features of the design, and will also
include servicability, habitability, and potential growth in their
evaluation.

Requirement: IISS/OffExp MIL-TD/41

The Office of Exploration has an immediate requirement for starships that can
carry a survey and recontact team of six to eight specialists (in addition to
the crew required for the safe navigation of the ship) and their equipment of
up to 16 displacement tons.

The ship must have an additional cargo capacity of 1 displacement ton per
person (crewmember and specialist) to store additional supplies and
comsumables for a long-duration voyage.

The ship must be capable of a 2-parsec Jump, and 1G maneuver performance.

The ship must be armed, and carry a gunner as part of the crew.

The ship must be capable of wilderness refueling, including the purification
of raw fuel.  If the ship is not capable of skimming, it may meet this
requirement by carrying small craft that can skim the required amount of fuel
in 24 hours of operations.

The ship must be capable of landing on undeveloped planets, including
NOE (Nap-Of-the-Earth) flight.  If the ship itself is unstreamlined, it may
meet this requirement by carrying small craft that can deliver the
specialists and at least half their gear to a planetary surface (6 to 8
persons and 8 dtons, in addition to the crew of the craft).  This gear may
include a small vehicle.

The craft's primary purpose is long-range exploration and recontact.  Due
to the extended duration of these missions, the quality of the quarters
aboardship will be important to maintaining crew efficency.

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:43:37 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: 3G3 Hardback

Just received my copy of 3G3 Hardback yesterday (postmarked Boxing Day!)
and am *really* impressed -- of course, since the previous copy I had was
only the 2nd edition (3g2?) that probably wasn't hard!

First impressions --

1) Quality: *Really* top grade. The pages are *not* single sheets glued at
the base and then with a single binding sheet attached to the front and
back cover a la the T4 *so-called* hardback (which will last approximately
as long as the softcover under real use -- about three weeks in my case --
before needing to be wire ring bound at your friendly local copy shop; I
was *not* impressed!) -- they are *sewn* properly and the whole thing is
attached either by thick paper under the endpieces or (perhaps) binding
cloth. *This* is a *quality* book that will last a *long* time, even under
hard use. And the typesetting, artwork, and production values are *also*
top quality -- unlike T4. Price is also reasonable (even including airmail
shipping to Oz!), and *value* is much better than T4.

Perhaps they could get Greg to do their print buying and typesetting?

Oh, and no bl**dy awful and completely irrelevant Foss so-called "artwork"
to inflate the price.

2) Contents: I've only found (keep in mind that I haven't gone over it with
a fine toothed comb yet -- I've only had it for 36 hours, and I had to eat
and sleep for some of them!) a few typos -- and these were only minor
spelling errors of no significance to the game system (or anything else).
The only real complaint I have is the less than logical placement (IMHO) of
the Round Mass/Maximum ROF Table on page #19 -- I would have thought that
it would have made more sense to have it at the *top* of the page, but
thats personal preference.

There are more tables and more formulae than ever before! Including some
that Greg notes are only included for the *real* gearheads, as no
(relatively) normal person (that leaves aside the question of whether *any*
gamer is "normal!") would even want to know about, let alone use ... but it
*is* there. The sidebars are informative and useful -- even the ones that
show how to design more "realistic" Mass Drivers at the high end of the
scale (for 1m spheres of iron ... see pg. #64!).

The conversion rules for other systems have been updated (some old ones
removed and new ones added) and tweaked as more info has come to light to
allow this to be done ... making 3G3 *the* system for designing "all your
rpg gun needs" so to speak!

Now, as soon as I get the chance I'm going to use the excellent Spreadsheet
program Greg has done (available from Hyperbooks online Bookstore -- link
on BTRC's Home Page) to design some truly outre weapons!

Phil
- <hr><hr>---------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel
- <hr><hr>---------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

<hr>

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #811
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, January 4 1997      Volume 1996 : Number 812



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #808
Re: Shipboard gas mix (fwd)
Re: Water on Starships
RE: O2 sources & fusion byproducts
Re: Shipboard gas mix (fwd)
Re: [Traveller Answer] Starship Controls
Re: January Traveller Contest
RE: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)
Galactic Program & Sector Creation
Re: January Traveller Contest
Thanks Joe
Re: January Traveller Contest
Re: [T96#809] Money
Re: [T96#809] Ship Designs

<hr><hr>----------

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 20:37:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #808

In mail you write:

> I shouldn't get into this, but I will.  The real problem here is that
> the US courts have yet to define what a web page really is.  The closest
> thing it resembles is a published document.  If you put a newsletter
> together with Paramount or TSR copyrighted pictures and text and sent
> it out to a large group of people, whether you charged for it or not,
> you would be violating their copyright and they would be legally 
> obligated to send you a cease and desist letter and then prosecute
> you in civil court if you didn't stop.  If they don't, they run the
> risk of losing not only the right to the specific image, but the
> Star Trek trademark as well.  Sure its not very likely, but lawyers
> are paid to worry about worse case scenarios. 

Sorry, but you are suffering from a *common* misconception. There is
*no* way that unauthorized use of a copyright item will lose the
copyright. *Trademarks* that are used AS IF THEY ARE GENERIC TERMS or
as if they were your own terms require a letter from the legal
department, so as to show that the trademark owner is objecting to the
misuse. If they fail to object they could lose the trademark.

But you've also put your finger on one of the reasons *why* Paramount
is out of line. By placing the images on a web page *they* are
publishing them. So, just like any other publicity handout, they do
*not* have control over *access* to the handout once they place it on
the net. (ie you can't publish a newsletter, distribute it all over the
place, and stick in a notice restricting who can read it)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 20:50:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipboard gas mix (fwd)

In mail you write:

>> Sorry, but they quit doing that at the end of the Apollo program. They
>> use oxygen/nitrogen at normal pressure. They only use straight O2 at 3
>> psi for space suits. 
>
> They quit doing this at the BEGINNING of the Apollo program after Apollo 1
> burned up during testing on the pad with Deke Slayton and co. They also
> re-designed the hatch so that it opens outward instead of inward because
> during a fire the increased gas pressure prohibited opening the hatch. After
> this incident there was a hiatus in the program while they redesigned the
> relevant systems.

Re-check your sources. They re-designed things, but they still used
pure O2.

> The fire burned for several minutes, all 3 of them were alive during the
> conflagration for quite a while. There were several exchanges between
> cap-com and the cm during that time.

Care to give a source for this? *All* the reports at the time list
*one* communication from the capsule: "Fire in the capsule". And they
didn't even know who said it. That was the *only* communication after
the fire broke out.

>> Likerwise, one spark and a stateroom with a pure O2 atmosphere would be
>> "fully involved" in *seconds*. And an awful lot of structural materials
>> (iron, aluminum, titanium, plastics, composites, etc) will burn
>> *violently* in a pure oxygen atmosphere. 
>
> If you were standing in a room with no exposed fuel the spark would do
> nothing. What caused the Apollo fire was the oxygen atmosphere, poorly
> designed egress hatch, poor choice of wiring, use of unsealed relays and
> switches. Apparently what happened was a relay or switch (the exact source
> was never determined) which toggled state. When it did there was a spark 
> emitted. There was apparently some wiring within a inch of so and it was
> ignited by that spark. Voila, a fire.

Show me a stateroom with no cloth/etc exposed as part of the
furnishings. And you *gravely* underestimate both the rate of spread
and the *intensity* of a fire in a pure O2 atmosphere. Things like
cloth and plastics burn at unbelievable rates. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 20:21:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Water on Starships

In mail you write:

>>Cargo aircraft *require* loads to be balanced.
>
> No they don't (see above).And a starship has a lot more thrust.

Talk to a loadmaster for a cargo plane. Especially ones that carry
*heavy* loads. You'd bettrer believe that they balance the load! The
plane becomes unsafe to fly if you have large masses off-center.

>>If the nav computer notices that there's an imbalance that seems to
>>persist, on a plane it can adjust trim tabs and use aerodynamics,
>
> All of which is the aerodymanic equivalent of thrusters.
>
>>> A ship with the kind of thrust a Traveller ship (and hence any
>>> ship with VTOL capability) isn't going to be as sensitive to
>>> mass balance as you indicate it is.
>>
>>Bull.
>
> Not a very detailed or convincing line of reasoning. :-)

It has exactly the *same* informational content as your response, only
mine is briefer. You give *no* backing for your comment either. And I
rather suspect that I don't consider ships as sensitive as you think I
do. It's just that you seem to think it makes sense to not worry about
trimming the ship at all, and I think that large imbalance need to be
offset (for efficient use of fuel if nothing else).

>>I'll bet you that the Shuttle's loads are *very* carefully calculated
>>to balance the load.  And since the loads are *not* moved around while
>>the main engines are in use, that makes it a *considerably* different
>
> The thing burns off large fuel loads and drops off solid fuel rockets
> while under heavy thrust.  It undergoes considerable changes in
> balance.

And those shifts are *designed in*. It's a lot different dealing with
*unexpected* shifts.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 11:21:21 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: O2 sources & fusion byproducts

- ----------
From: 	Garry Ward[SMTP:Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: 	Tuesday, December 31, 1996 8:12 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: O2 sources & fusion byproducts

>This leads to a question I have been contemplating for some months now.
>Fusion powerplants have been sucking up hydrogen, fusing it and generating
>energy, but I have not yet seen any rules or guidelines for what happens to
>the helium produced. Or as Leonard has noted, any of the other elements, up
>to iron, which has a net energy loss to fuse. Given the hydrogen intake, the
>tech level at which is built, and other such considerations, should our
>engineers be looking for somewhere or somemeans of flushing these fusion
>resistant heavy nuclei out of the plasma? 

The buildup of the helium "ash" is slow, but if it isn't removed on a regular basis 
it can cause the energy output to drop, as fewer reactions are occuring.  In a
number of the experimental reactors being designed now (Earth 1997), the 
reactor works on a pulse basis (This doesn't refer to laser compression fusion).
The fuel is injected into the reactor vessel, it gets heated to ignition temperatures, 
burns for a short period of time (power producing part of the process), then is 
sucked into an exhaust chamber that is kept at lower pressure than the reactor 
vessel.  In this scenario, all the fuel hasn't been used, and can be filtered and
pumped back into the fuel storage cells for later use.  

I find it hard to believe, but there is work on a type of reactor that is kept at 
ambient air pressure.  I don't understand how it keeps the air from contaminating
the process, unless there is some sort of overpressure system in operation though.


>Could this be used to justify that
>week in port between jumps? Could a plasma heavily contaminated with heavy
>nuclei fusion by products contribute to mis jumps, or other unpleasant
>accidents? What about the safety constraints? Heavy nuclei from a fusion
>reactor have no electrons, so they are functionally the same material that
>comes out the business end of a CPAWS. Maybe not travelling as fast, but
>potentially as dangerous?

Those heavy nuclei are the main method of pulling energy out of the fusion process.
The plasma is the source of the nuclei, and cannot be contaminated by them, they 
fly straight out of the plasma and hit the reactor walls (they are after all electrically 
neutral) , producing heat that is converted to electricity (through a number of means). 
The resulting nuclei aren't long lived types that would be the result of a fission process 
though.

In a fusion reactor the biggest problem is corrosion on the inner surface of the 
reactor vessel  due to solar temperatures.  The reactors don't have a long term
radioactivity problem.  With Earth 1996 technology, the reactor vessel would have
a service life of maybe ten years.
  
 Hope this is some help.

	Eric

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:40:09 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Shipboard gas mix (fwd)

Hi,

Forwarded message:

> > They quit doing this at the BEGINNING of the Apollo program after Apollo 1
> > burned up during testing on the pad with Deke Slayton and co. They also
> > re-designed the hatch so that it opens outward instead of inward because
> > during a fire the increased gas pressure prohibited opening the hatch. After
> > this incident there was a hiatus in the program while they redesigned the
> > relevant systems.
> 
> Re-check your sources. They re-designed things, but they still used
> pure O2.

Chariots of Fire, Chpt. 9. When I look at it on the NASA page it is
screen 40/50. It clearly states that they used Oxygen/Nitrogen atmosphere at
launch and replaced it anly AFTER launch. The reasons they didn't go to
a completely O/N atmosphere was a complexity and weight issue, especialy
critical after they replaced the inward opening hatch with a outward opening
hatch, which weighed quite a bit more. They also replace most of the cloths
and such in the capsule with synthetics. They also 'booted' all the exposed
connections, got rid of as much aluminum as possible (burns at 600F you know),
and seriously considered replacing the glycol based cooling system.

One interesting point that I had missed previously was that the 2 astronauts
found at the bottem of the door were so entangled they had a hard time
getting them apart, apparently their spacesuits had melted together. The
astronauts had 2nd and 3rd degree burns but not enough to kill them, they
died from toxic smoke inhalation. As a result they added emergency oxygen
masks on the Apollo.

> Care to give a source for this? *All* the reports at the time list
> *one* communication from the capsule: "Fire in the capsule". And they
> didn't even know who said it. That was the *only* communication after
> the fire broke out.

Actualy the astronauts were seen through the window of the hatch trying to
get out. The above reference has a truly grisly detail of the fire, which
burned for 5 minutes accordingly.

> Show me a stateroom with no cloth/etc exposed as part of the
> furnishings. And you *gravely* underestimate both the rate of spread
> and the *intensity* of a fire in a pure O2 atmosphere. Things like
> cloth and plastics burn at unbelievable rates. 

All the clothing and such should/would be stowed on a well run ship. I have
been playing Traveller since the late 70's (78/79?) and in that whole time
it has always been clear to me that stowage of possessions was not like your
bedroom but like the shuttle, everything had its place and if you weren't
using it put it in its place. The last thing you want on a spacecraft is a
bunch of stuff flying around balisticaly if something goes wrong. I always
envisioned a stateroom, upon entry, to be nothing more than a small room
with lots of panels. Want to sleep, pull down the bed/desk panel, etc. So if
a stateroom was say 8ft by 8ft the actual space available to the occupant
would be like 8ft by 4ft with the remainder taken up by stowage lockers and
relevant piping and support systems.

I don't 'gravely' underestimate anything. I use a launch system for my
high-performance rockets that burns regular speaker wire insulation in a
oxygen environment to launch my birds. I spent 7 years working in a
science museum (Discovery Hall, Austin, TX) building exhibits (40+) on a
variety of subjects and I assure you burning things in oxygen is something I
am quite familiar with. If you ever get a chance get a small bottle of O2
and put a firecracker under a can and bleed in the O2, truley impressive
(hint: be shure to be heads down and far away).

I did make one mistake however, I confused Slayton and Grissom. Grissom was
in the spacecraft, Slayton was cap-com. Sorry.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com

<hr>

Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 11:59:39 -0500
From: Chip Wright <ruwright@InfoAve.Net>
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answer] Starship Controls

Guy wrote:

> The Minimal package contains:
> 1 3,000km Radio (.005MCr)
> 1 3,000km Active EMS (3.2MCr)
> 1 30,000km Passive EMS (0.65MCr)
> 3 Standard computers (9MCr)
> 1 Flight Avionics (0.289MCr)
> for a total of 13.144MCr.
> 
> The Standard Civilian package contains:
> 1 30,000km Radio (.03MCr)
> 1 30,000km Maser (.036MCr)
> 1 30,000km Active EMS (4.4MCr)
> 1 60,000km Passive EMS (1.3MCr)
> 3 Standard computers (9MCr)
> 1 Flight Avionics (0.289MCr)
> for a total of 15.055MCr.
> 
> It's probably a typo in transcribing data on the standard civilian table.
> 

I reluctantly drug out my copy of FF&S and performed this same exercise
with like results (and then noticed a size 12 foot in my mouth)... Maybe
SSDS's 12.05 MCr is a 25% discounted price for the Standard Civilian
Package...the math is close...

> > I'm trying to design an inexpensive ship and it can't be done...
> 
> > not even the Scout/Courier listed in the book can be built using SSDS
for
> > 21.75 MCr.
> 
> Don't forget that there's a discount for "standard" designs.  In
addition,
> some of the ship designs in the _Starships_ book were designed using
QSDS,
> which offers a larger discount, and has an error such that some drives
cost
> considerably less than they "should".
> 

Even with the 25% discount, and with jump drives and thruster plates that
cost 1/14 of what they "should", I still couldn't come up with a QSDS
design for the Type S Scout Courier that cost 21.75 MCr.  The design I
ended up with cost 45.2 MCr (X 75% = 33.9 MCr).

The cost breakdown is presented below:

Component                      Vol (tons)            Power (MW)            
Cost (MCr)

Hull: 100 ton Wedge S              (94.1)                      27.3        
               4.4
Jump 2:                                        3                           
                          0.9* 
Thrusters:                                     4                         56
                        1.0*
Controls: TL12 Mil Standard          2.2                                   
               18.2
Sensors: TL12 Improved                0.3                       12.6       
               7.4
Commo:  TL12 Improved                0.0                       10.6        
              0.3
Power Plant:                                4.5                      (125) 
                    12.5
Workstations: (1)                          0.5                             
                     0.002
Staterooms (4 Large):                  16.0                                
                   0.4
Fuel Tankage:                             20.7
Fuel Purification:                          24                           5 
                        0.1

Totals:                                       75.2                        
111.5                    45.202
Cargo:                                       (18.9)

*Note: Erroneous cost - should be approx. 14X higher.                     

The same ship designed (by me) with SSDS costs 54.1 MCr before any
discount.

I'd sure like to see someone else's design of the Type S that cost only
21.75 MCr.

Chip

<hr>

Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 12:06:57 -0500
From: Chip Wright <ruwright@InfoAve.Net>
Subject: Re: January Traveller Contest

> 
> You can design the ship using either QSDS or SSDS, but be sure to note
which
> system was used, so that the designs can be checked for accuracy.  Double
> check your math, because illegal designs may be disqualified.
> 
>

Regarding ships designed for this contest using QSDS:

Are we supposed to use the (erroneous) thruster and jump drive costs
presented in QSDS, or should we be expected to multiply the QSDS costs for
these systems by a factor of 14?

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 11:11:46 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: RE: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)

Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
> Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 11:21:21 -0500
> 
> The buildup of the helium "ash" is slow, but if it isn't removed on a regular basis 
> it can cause the energy output to drop, as fewer reactions are occuring.

It builds up at a 2:1 ratio. 2H make 1He.

> In a
> number of the experimental reactors being designed now (Earth 1997), the 
> reactor works on a pulse basis (This doesn't refer to laser compression fusion).
> The fuel is injected into the reactor vessel, it gets heated to ignition temperatures, 
> burns for a short period of time (power producing part of the process), then is 
> sucked into an exhaust chamber that is kept at lower pressure than the reactor 
> vessel.  In this scenario, all the fuel hasn't been used, and can be filtered and
> pumped back into the fuel storage cells for later use.  

Are you refering to TOKAMAK reactors? I am aware of the laser pulse reactors
(MINERVA) and TOKAMAK style reactors being researched currently. As far as I
know these are the only 2 systems under serious study. If you are refering
to TOKAMAK reactors they burn continously when operating. AIP released an
interesting observation about TOKAMAK's last week. Seems as the torus size
gets larger thermal imbalances occur which limit the maximum output. Seems
that this problem is a real headache because it apparently (at this time)
puts a limit on the amount of energy you can get out of a TOKAMAK
indipendantly of torus size. Not a good piece of news.

> I find it hard to believe, but there is work on a type of reactor that is kept at 
> ambient air pressure.  I don't understand how it keeps the air from contaminating
> the process, unless there is some sort of overpressure system in operation though.

Keeping something at standard pressure is not the same as having it in
standard atmosphere.

> >Could this be used to justify that
> >week in port between jumps? Could a plasma heavily contaminated with heavy
> >nuclei fusion by products contribute to mis jumps, or other unpleasant
> >accidents? What about the safety constraints? Heavy nuclei from a fusion
> >reactor have no electrons, so they are functionally the same material that
> >comes out the business end of a CPAWS. Maybe not travelling as fast, but
> >potentially as dangerous?

The problem with TOKAMAK's is that as the plasma generates energy it creates
carbon. This carbon along with hi-energy neutrons destroy the inside of the
torus making control of the magnetic bottle harder to control. It also
lowers the temperature of the plasma. Currently TOKAMAK's have to have the
lining of their rings replaced after some number of hours of use.

> Those heavy nuclei are the main method of pulling energy out of the fusion process.
> The plasma is the source of the nuclei, and cannot be contaminated by them, they 
> fly straight out of the plasma and hit the reactor walls (they are after all electrically 
> neutral) , producing heat that is converted to electricity (through a number of means). 
> The resulting nuclei aren't long lived types that would be the result of a fission process 
> though.

They only fly directly out (balisticaly) IF they have no charge. If they
have a charge they indeed are circulated in the plasma ring or are ejected
on a path which is non-linear (ie not 'straight out'). If they are charged
then what happens is that they lower the temperature of the plasma. The
particles which get ejected hit the steel walls of the torus and knock iron
from it. Since iron is highly magnetic it goes right to the magnetic bottle
as was refered to before, iron is not a good material for nuclear reactors.

The primary use of the plasma is as a heat source. The heat is used to boil
some liquid (eg water or sodium) which then turns a turbine and makes
electricity. In general none of the reactor systems currently being
researched use any form of 'coupling' with the plasma ring to draw energy
electro-magneticaly, this would make control of the magnetic bottle much
harder if not impossible.

> In a fusion reactor the biggest problem is corrosion on the inner surface of the 
> reactor vessel  due to solar temperatures.  The reactors don't have a long term
> radioactivity problem.  With Earth 1996 technology, the reactor vessel would have
> a service life of maybe ten years.

It's not really corrosion, but rather ablattive effects from the
high-velocity impacts of the particles that escape the magnetic bottle. The
current reactor vessel life for a TOKAMAK style reactor is measured in
months at commercial levels. The TOKAMAK they have here at UT Austin, which
is a research model (26th & Speedway, Robert L. Moore Bld., they give
tours), has its torus replaced after about a year or so of use.


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 09:54:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Galactic Program & Sector Creation

Joe Hamrick wrote:
> Zane H. Healy wrote:
> > >I just downloaded a copy of Jim Vassilakos' GALAXY program and I must say
> > >it is just plain AWESOME! It's the best thing to happen to Traveller refs
> > >since the birth of Marc Miller!
> > 
> > OK, I'll bite.  Where and what computer platform?
> 
> Sorry, guess I left that part out! It's for DOS systems but it includes 
> quickbasic sourcecode so it could possibly be converted to other systems. 
> it's at:
> 
> http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/

Which currently seems to be experiencing "technical problems". Here's
a more complete description of the program along w/ some more places to
find it if the web-site acts cranky.

        PROGRAM NAME: "GALACTIC" [v2.1] {August 1996}
        GAME SYSTEM: Traveller/MegaTraveller
        AUTHOR: Jim Vassilakos  (jimv@empirenet.com)
        FUNCTION: Sector Viewer/Generator
        OPERATING SYSTEM: IBM (MS-DOS)
        COMMENTS: Allows user to randomly generate sectors,
	      displays the maps in VGA, translates the UWP code
	      to English, and keeps campaign notes in text files
	      which can be accessed directly from the map. The
	      maps all mesh seemlessly. Thirteen Classic
	      Traveller sectors are included complete with jump
	      routes as well as another without. Several world
	      descriptions by various Traveller Mailing List
	      members also also included. Contains enough online
	      help that it can be used by someone who has never
	      before played Traveller and is just getting into
	      it. Note, you must use "-d" option when unzipping:
              >>>>>>>>    pkunzip -d gal21.zip    <<<<<<<<
        AVAILABLE: http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv
        ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/doc/games/roleplay/programs/mapping/gal21.zip
        ftp://ftp.cs.pdx.edu/pub/frp/util/gal21.zip

Incidentally, Dakin Burdick <burdickd@indiana.edu>, has been mulling over
the notion of creating a separate mailing list for the development of
sectors for use with Galactic. Basically, from what I can tell, he wants
to get a bunch of Galactic users together to work on filling out the
"official" universe as well a provide a forum for people who want to
work on the creation of alternate traveller galaxies. If anyone is
interested in being part of such a project, please send one or both of
us some email so we can add you to the contact list.

jimv@empirenet.com

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:53:12 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: January Traveller Contest

>Regarding ships designed for this contest using QSDS:
>
>Are we supposed to use the (erroneous) thruster and jump drive costs
>presented in QSDS, or should we be expected to multiply the QSDS costs for
>these systems by a factor of 14?

Good question.  What version of QSDS are we supposed to use?  The curretn
versio is 1.4, will you be producing a new version for use with the contest
with is completely correct?  Also, can we utlize the Huge Table of Hulls in
our ships?

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- <hr><hr>----
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 14:21:32 -0600
From: "J.D. Burdick" <twolf@tfs.net>
Subject: Thanks Joe

Thanks Joe for doing the contest of the month.  I appreciate you taking your
time to set it up for us.  It is too bad that many of the members of this
list are ingrats that require daily spoon feeding and diaper changes.  Again
thanks.

JD
Twolf

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 13:25:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: January Traveller Contest

On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Peter J. Miller wrote:

> >Regarding ships designed for this contest using QSDS:
> >
> >Are we supposed to use the (erroneous) thruster and jump drive costs
> >presented in QSDS, or should we be expected to multiply the QSDS costs for
> >these systems by a factor of 14?
> 
> Good question.  What version of QSDS are we supposed to use?  The curretn
> versio is 1.4, will you be producing a new version for use with the contest
> with is completely correct?  Also, can we utlize the Huge Table of Hulls in
> our ships?

It's up to you.  Use the QSDS version as presented in T4 (with the Jump 
Table from the errata), or you can use version 1.4, or you can do 
whatever changes you feel are necessary (like the jump drive cost 
changes), or you can use SSDS, etc.  

Just be sure to note what you use in your entry!  That way, it can be 
checked for accuracy, and appropriately judged in relation to other 
entries. 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

<hr>

Date: Sat, 04 Jan 97 16:08:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T96#809] Money

T::>Which is why US money has that bit about "legal tender for all debts,
 ::>public and private" on it. That means that if anyone refuses to accept
 ::>US money, the US government will land on them like a ton of bricks.

 There are ways around this.  Federal Express, for example,
 accepts cash (maybe) _only_ at depots (where the packages are
 taken off the little trucks that make deliveries and pickups
 and put on the big trucks that take the packages to the planes
 to Nashville).  But they have signs on every one of their
 offices that say that cash is not accepted.  And those offices
 _do_not_ accept cash.

T::>As an example, it is illegal to refuse US money as payment in the US.
 ::>Every once and a while some store owner will get stupid and post a sign
 ::>saying that he only accepts credit cards (or credit cards and checks).
 ::>And sooner or later the Treasury folks will have a *very* unpleasant
 ::>conversation with him.

 Only if they find out about it.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Cogito, ergo...I get into a lot of arguments.

<hr>

Date: Sat, 04 Jan 97 16:08:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T96#809] Ship Designs

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> hath scriven...

T::>Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com> asked:

 No, he didn't; I did!

 ::>>   These are going to seem like dumb questions I'm sure, but...

T::>Not at all, Clint!

T::>>   1. Does one use the entire given volumes for the stateroom/
 ::>>      bunk, or does one split it between the staterooms and the
 ::>>      common areas (Lounges, Promenades, Dining Salons, etc.)?

T::>The staterooms and bunks include volume for access and basic common areas.
 ::>Most starship components include the volume of any required accessways,
 ::>catwalks, crawlspaces, Jeffries Tubes, or equivalent.

 This is potentially a problem, then.  I had a long conversation
 with a coworker who operates a cruise agency on the side, and
 he told me that the typical cabin on a cruise ship, whether the
 "Cruise-the-Carribean-for-a-week"-type, or fourth class on the
 QE2 (roughly equivalent accommodations), is 150-200 square feet
 floor space, including the 'fresher (shower, sink, toilet).
 That's roughly four displacement tons as Traveller measures it.
 For the stateroom and fresher alone. Corridor is extra, common
 areas are extra.  If a mid-passage small stateroom is half that,
 and _includes_ common area, then the actual stateroom is going
 to be basically big enough for a single bed, and maybe a folding
 chair; storage space is under the bed, no 'fresher.  I think
 that the size of the staterooms needs to be doubled.

T::>If you're designing a luxury liner that's supposed to have things like Grand
 ::>Salons, Promenades, Lounges, and gold-plated freshers, you should probably
 ::>allocate volume (and cost!) specifically for that purpose.  There aren't any
 ::>rules for those items because the size and cost are so variable.

 Is the 600td subsidized liner a "luxury liner"?  Is the Big Red
 Boat a "luxury cruise ship"?  It was this kind of thing I was
 looking at, although a luxury liner is a little bit down the
 road.

T::>As a rough rule of thumb, use your 'vision' of just how posh the ship should
 ::>be and multiply cost and volume by some number.  The first-class staterooms
 ::>aboard the _Silver Star_ might be 3 times the volume, and 6 times the price
 ::>listed for "standard" stateroom; the extra volume being used to give the
 ::>ship larger common areas, and the extra cost provides the gold-plated
 ::>fixtures and solid howood panelling.

 Well, yes - but we're getting into the lux range.  Let's start
 with the basic utilitarian one-week-in-jump transportation-type
 liner.

T::>>   2. If the latter, what's the canonical source for this, and
 ::>>      what's the ratio (I can't find it in either FFS or
 ::>>      Starships)?

T::>There isn't one; it's up to the individual designer.  For example, when I
 ::>did the Classic Traveller Tukera Liner, I decided that Tukera's designers
 ::>(being Vilani) would tend to build large common areas, at the expense of
 ::>stateroom size.  So the staterooms abouard the ship aren't much bigger than
 ::>railroad sleeping compartments (not a bad model for Traveller starship
 ::>staterooms), but the ship had a large dining room/lounge, a central lobby
 ::>and stairwell, and an observation deck and bar with floor-to-ceiling
 ::>windows.  Solomani-designed and Sylean-designed ships will likely be
 ::>different.

 Which is OK, if that's what you want.  However, I know very
 few people who would want to spend a week living in a pullman.

 When there was no air travel, and the railroad was _the_ way to
 travel overland, they made the pullman rooms bigger than they
 do today - but even then, there was opportunity to get off the
 train and stretch one's legs, so a small roomette was
 acceptable. But the transoceanic trade had more flexibility in
 design, and because you were _stuck_ on the ship for a week,
 they had to make provisions aboard.

 I feel that the cruise ship is a better model and paradigm than
 the railroad.

T::>>   3. Are corridors included in the "common" allocation, or is
 ::>>      this a separate allocation (using up some of the 10-20%
 ::>>      slop volume)?  Does one also include corridors in the
 ::>>      volume allocation for other kinds of rooms?  Again, what
 ::>>      ratio?

T::>Corridors are assumed to be included in the "common" allocation.  However,
 ::>it's not uncommon to use some of the "slop volume" for corridors and
 ::>accessways, particularly if that makes the deckplans work out better.  In
 ::>general, any deckplan that comes within 10% of the actual design volume of
 ::>the ship is more than accurate enough for role-playing purposes, and 20% is
 ::>acceptable.

 ...which is where I got my "slop volume" figures from. But now,
 from that 2td stateroom, we've lost roughly 0.5td for the
 'fresher, and probably 0.5td for the chunk of corridor out in
 front of it - so the cabin itself is down to 1td, which is
 basically twice as wide as the bed and as long as.  If we have to
 allocate any more for additional common area, we can't even
 stand up in the cabin proper; we dress in the 'fresher and
 climb over the bed to exit the cabin.  No chair, no writing
 desk; no room.  No way.  Staterooms _have_ to be bigger.
 Otherwise you have passengers going stir crazy well before the
 week is out.

T::>It's more important to have a good deckplan that adds interest or excitement
 ::>to your game.  For a lot of players, a deckplan (even if it's never used for
 ::>combat) makes the ship seem that much more "real", and is an excellent aid
 ::>to the imagination.

 Yes, this is part of why I ask these questions.

T::>>   4. Does one include the 'fresher in the allocation for the
 ::>>      stateroom, or is this a separate (0.5td) allocation?

T::>The volume of the stateroom includes the 'fresher.  But exactly how much
 ::>space that requires is up to the designer.  Some ships have a very compact
 ::>fresher (toilet, sink, and shower) in each stateroom.  Others have common
 ::>freshers, usually one per two to eight staterooms.  Still others have a
 ::>fold-away sink and toilet in each stateroom, but common showers.
 ::>It's up to the designer.

 Common 'fresher are OK, maybe even expected, on a strictly
 military ship.  But when you're dealing with people who are
 _paying_ for the trip, there are certain levels of "decency"
 that are expected.  Public toilet facilities near common areas,
 OK.  But Joe Bftsplk ain't gonna go digging for a robe at 0300,
 only to find out that there's a line at the 'fresher, nosiree.

T::>>   5. Does anyone have a VISIO 4.0 stencil set for starships?

T::>Sorry, but I don't.  I still use pencil and T-square for my deckplans.

 Thou hast infinitely more patience than I.

T::>>   6. What is the personal luggage allocation per crew, command,
 ::>>      high passenger, and low passenger?

T::>I couldn't find a canonical reference in _Marc Miller's Traveller_, so I
 ::>went back and checked Classic Traveller.  In Classic Traveller, the baggage
 ::>allowances are 1 displacement ton for High passengers.  Ship designers
 ::>and captains should remember to allocate space for this purpose in the cargo
 ::>hold, because this space isn't part of the stateroom.

 Then High passengers should get 1td _plus_ the stateroom
 allowance that Mids get, although rounding will bring it right
 back to the 1td.

T::>Middle passengers get a 100kg allowance; in practice, this is
 ::>probably whatever they can carry on board themselves and stow in the
 ::>stateroom.  Low passengers get a 10kg allowance, probably whatever fits in a
 ::>small locker near the low berth.  Crewmembers taking a working passage get an
 ::>allowance of 1 displacement ton, just like High passengers.  Presumably,
 ::>ordinary crewmembers get the same allowance.

 OK for now, but I think that allocating to High and Crew by
 _volume_ and everyone else by _mass_ is a bit strange.

 I'd recommend doubling the small stateroom to 4td; the large
 starts at 6td.  Lux, suites, and so on, for the luxury trade,
 can go up from there.  I'd also allow a small stateroom to
 house two people sharing a double bed (e.g., married couples),
 with a combined baggage allowance somewhat smaller than two
 singles.

 Use the "posted" sizes as Imperially-mandated _minimums_ for
 Imperial certification, but recognize that there aren't too
 many people that would want to actually travel under those
 conditions.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  OS/2 2.0 VirusScan - Windows 3.1 found: Remove it? (Y/y)

<hr>

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #812
**********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, January 5 1997       Volume 1996 : Number 813



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Wanted: F.F.S.
Re: Newbie
Re: Alien cultures
Muon-catalyst fusion
[T4] Substitute Skills
Ship Designs
[Traveller Answer] Starship Controls (again)
January Contest/Starship Design Issues
Re: Wanted: F.F.S.
Re: Mikesh starport and Vargr technology
Re: The Corridor Invasion
Re: Corridor invasion
Re: Water on Starships
Re: Mikesh starport and Vargr technology
Re: Shipboard gas mix (fwd)

<hr><hr>----------

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 17:54:54 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Wanted: F.F.S.

I hope this is not an inappropriate use of the mailing list - if it is,
please forgive me.  I would like to purchase a copy of F.F.S. 
Unfortunately, I have been unable to find one, and I have already looked
at several different gaming shops.  Does anyone know where I might be able
to find a copy of this elusive book?  I am willing to pay more than the
cover price, even for a worn, but legible, copy.
                                                              - J. Raynor

<hr>

Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 17:59:18 -0500
From: Chip Wright <ruwright@InfoAve.Net>
Subject: Re: Newbie

Paul wrote:

> Is there anyone running a game out there?  I played under the original
> rules, even tried GMing a little and always thought Traveller was under
> rated by the gaming public.  When I signed up on this list a few days ago
I
> didn't realize the amount of fanaticism there was for this game.  Let me
> know if I can join in and play, thanks.  Paul

I'm also interested in getting into a game of some sort over the net.  Is
anyone interested in trying to run a campaign over the IRC or by use of
something like Microsoft's NetMeeting?  If so, I'd like to participate
and/or help in any way I could.
 
Chip

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:50:33 -0500
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alien cultures

Shadow writes:
>Traveller barely has alien *cultures*. And as for Star Trek, don't make
>me laugh. With *very* few exceptions, most of their "alien" cultures
>are rather minor variations on Western culture.
>
>Of course, trying to get a truly alien culture shown in a TV program
>isn't terribly likely. But they could try harder.
>
>

There is the problem of a culture so completely alien that interaction
between it and human cultures would be impossible. Given the mechanics of
evolution, an incomprehensable race seems more likely than otherwise.
dsf

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:50:41 -0500
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Muon-catalyst fusion

If anyone will know this, one of this group should-
Somewhere in my travels across time and whatnot I came across a reference to
a ship using a drive powered by a muonium-hydrogen fusion plant. It was a
type of plasma drive using an enriched water as a reaction mass. Does anyone
else remember this? Or is it just a product of a disturbed mind? If I
remember correctly, muonium-hydrogen compunds where highly unstable (possibly
they were only theoretical).
dsf
p.s. and what is this about muon catalyst fusion with polarized nuclei? or am
i dreaming again?
p.p.s.Pete-The Chief wants some ancient formica.
p.p.p.s SHEILA X, WHERE ARE YOU?

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:56:19 -0500 (EST)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: [T4] Substitute Skills

In T4, there are certain skills that can be thought of as "substitute"
skills.  

The cascade skills (Aircraft, Blade Combat, and Gun Combat) can be thought
of as "two-way" substitution.  If a character has Rifle-3 and Pistol-1, he
can use his Rifle-3 (at a -1 DM) as "Pistol-2".  If he ever progresses to
Pistol-5, he could now use his Pistol-5 as "Rifle-4".  

Medical can be substituted for First Aid, but you cannot substitute First
Aid for Medical.  Pilot can be used (at a -1 DM) for Ship's Boat, but you
cannot use Ship's Boat for Pilot.  These can be thought of as "one-way"
substitutions.  

I bring this up because I see another pair of skills that should be
"substitute" skills (whether "one-way" or "two-way"): Battle Dress and Vac 
Suit.  An Imperial Marine with extensive familiarity in using Battle Dress
should have a reasonable familiarity with Vac Suit.  Likewise, a Belter
with a lifetime of experience with Vac Suit should have some skill
(however slight) if he ever uses Battle Dress.  

This is what I would recommend:  Battle Dress could be substituted (with 
a -2 DM) for Vac Suit.  Vac Suit could be used as Battle Dress-0.  

The afore-mentioned Marine could use Vac Suit, but would be a bit clumsy,
as he is used to the enhanced strength and the hardened toughness of the
suit itself.  The Belter, on the other hand, might be able to use Battle
Dress as a virtually-indestructable Vac Suit, but he would be extremely
unused to the enhanced strength.  

What are your thoughts on this idea?  

Also, do any of you see any other skills that could be thought of as
"substitute"?  

Thank you.

Franklin

<hr>

Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 19:18:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Ship Designs

Hi.

> T::>The staterooms and bunks include volume for access and basic common areas.
>  ::>Most starship components include the volume of any required accessways,
>  ::>catwalks, crawlspaces, Jeffries Tubes, or equivalent.

> This is potentially a problem, then.  I had a long conversation
> with a coworker who operates a cruise agency on the side, and
> he told me that the typical cabin on a cruise ship, whether the
> "Cruise-the-Carribean-for-a-week"-type, or fourth class on the
> QE2 (roughly equivalent accommodations), is 150-200 square feet
> floor space, including the 'fresher (shower, sink, toilet).
> That's roughly four displacement tons as Traveller measures it.
> For the stateroom and fresher alone. Corridor is extra, common
> areas are extra.  If a mid-passage small stateroom is half that,
> and _includes_ common area, then the actual stateroom is going
> to be basically big enough for a single bed, and maybe a folding
> chair; storage space is under the bed, no 'fresher.  I think
> that the size of the staterooms needs to be doubled.

I seem to recall in "Traders and Gunboats" that there was a "20% rule".
If your deck-plans including corridors matched the ship's volume to
within 20%, then they are within the accuracy of the ship design rules.
This basically gives you a <20% slop for corridors, access panels,
Jeffries tubes, freshers, galleys, and other paraphernalia. It worked
great for the T&G ships.

I always thought this was an exceedingly reasonable rule, since there is
no way that any ship-design rules in any game will be better than 20%
accurate.

- -Rob

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 97 22:15:24 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: [Traveller Answer] Starship Controls (again)

Though the distinction between "military" and "civilian" systems is made in
QSDS, the terms are probably confusing to a number of people (Sam included).
In addition to responding to his questions directly, I'd like to re-iterate
what QSDS says about "military" versus "civilian".

The terms "military" and "civilian" are used as convenient and easily
recognized descriptions of a type of system.  "Military" systems could be
defined as "sophisticated systems of the type commonly employed in military
and para-military applications", while "civilian" is "relatively inexpensive
systems of the type suitable for general use".

In particular, there is NO REQUIREMENT that only "military" systems be used
in ships designed for the various spacefaring armed services.  If "civilian"
systems will meet the mission requirements, they may be used.  Similarly,
and if permitted by local law, "military" systems can be installed on ANY
commercial and privately-owned vessels, and are not restricted to the armed
services.

It is the TYPE of the system that determines that system's capabilities, and
not the ship it is installed on.  A "civilian" weapon system has the same
capabilities no matter who built or who owns the ship it is mounted on.


sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net> wrote:
> I said:
> >The sensors must be from the SAME TL as the controls.
> Why is this so?
> A 1977 Ford car has the same analog controls(gauges) as 1933 Ford.

As I pointed out in the original message, the term "Controls" is a
misnomer.  QSDS "controls" represent the starship's flight avionics
and central computer installation, and not the "gauges".

> Hmmmmm.. Define a military weapon and civilian ones.

Military weapons and civilian weapons are defined in the QSDS rules: see the
Military Laser Batteries table and the Civilian Laser Batteries table. 

To summarize the rules for you, "military" weapons are sophisticated systems
generally used by military and para-military ships.  "Military" weapons
include sophisticated targetting systems, and are larger and more expensive
than "civilian" weapons.  Civilian weapons are inexpensive systems designed
primarily to arm non-warships.

> Is what you are saying
> is that a laser turret mounted on a trader has FC rating of 0 and a laser
> turret mounted on patrol cruiser a greater than zero FC rating?

Definitely NOT.  The TYPE of the weapon system determines the fire-control
rating, NOT the type of ship it is installed on. 

The QSDS rules state that "military" and "civilian" weapons can be
mounted on any ship (subject to local law, of course).  A ship with
"civilian" weapons has a fire-control rating of 0.  A ship with "military"
weapons installed has a fire-control rating based on it's tech level.

> If I am
> arming a trader why are the costs the same for arming the patrol cruiser?

If you compare the Military Weapons Table and the Civilian Weapons Table in
QSDS, you will see that the costs for military and civilian are quite
different.  Military weapons are larger, much more expensive, and more
effective.

If you were to choose the same weapons system for both applications, you
would recieve the same capability at the same cost.  However, a "military"
weapon system is far too expensive for the average trader to justify, and
a "civilian" weapon system is too ineffective for a patrol cruiser.


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- <hr><hr>------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 22:21:04 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: January Contest/Starship Design Issues

Hi,

Several folks have asked me for clarification on a few points, so I'll do 
that here.

Design system:  Use either of the T4 design systems.  Don't use High 
Guard, MegaTraveller, or FF&S.  Use only QSDS (any version) or SSDS.

Problems with QSDS/SSDS:  Work it as best you can.  As stated previously, 
inherent inequities (such as drive costs and whatnot) will be taken into 
consideration since you will be including a note with your entry that 
specifies which design system you used.  If something in the design 
system is unclear to you, post a query to TML and we'll try to get an 
answer.  But remember, everyone else is working under the same 
constraints as you have (we all have the same books[G]).  Just do your 
best and explain it well.


Good luck!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

<hr>

Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 23:19:02 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Wanted: F.F.S.

John P. Raynor wrote:
> 
> I hope this is not an inappropriate use of the mailing list - if it is,
> please forgive me.  I would like to purchase a copy of F.F.S.
> Unfortunately, I have been unable to find one, and I have already looked
> at several different gaming shops.  Does anyone know where I might be able
> to find a copy of this elusive book?  I am willing to pay more than the
> cover price, even for a worn, but legible, copy.

You'll can have my copy...when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers!

...actually, it depends on where you live. My FLGS has a copy, but I am in T.O.

<hr>

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 05:59:04 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Mikesh starport and Vargr technology

Chris Cox writes:
>Hans wrote:
>>Well, a fleet is quite a big thing. If the Vargr version is roughly 
>>equivalent to an Imperial fleet it is something like 3 TCr Squadrons. But 
>>a world like Mikesh would be defended by the equivalent of 180-200 TCr 
>>squadrons if we go by TCS straight rules or by 36-40 of them if we go by 
>>analogy with what we know of the regular Imperial forces.
> 
>Mikesh has a Class C starport.  That means that they do not build starships
>or even spaceships. So, the main form of defense would have come from the
>Imperial fleet which as we all know was sent elsewhere.

First of all, that is not quite correct. There is a rule somewhere that worlds
with the requisite tech level can build ships of up to 5000 T displacement
even without B or A starports. (I can't remember precisely where it is; can
anyone help us out with that?). Granted, restricting Mikesh to 5000 T ships
will handicap it somewhat, but they'll have that many more of them.

Secondly, Mikesh suposedly has a class C starport in 1120 after being taken
over by Vargr. I'm not surprised that their starport isn't up to snuff after
being attacked by 13+ Vargr fleets. However, that dosen't say anything about 
what it was in 1117. You may believe that a TL 14 world with 60 billion 
people wouldn't build its own ships. I don't. (For one thing, it would take 
a humongous merchant fleet to move the Mikesh taxes to some other world and 
build the ships there; it is uch more efficient to build the ships where the 
wealth is generated).

>One other thing, how do we know that the Vargr tech level tops out at 13 and
>how do we know the this applies to the governments of the Provence sector?

We know because that's what we've been told is their maximum tech level. (The
Gvurrdon Sector was apparently generated without regards for this.) Or perhaps
its an average (After all, we're also told that TL 15 is maximum Imperium yet
there are Vincennes in Deneb Sector and Kaasu in Corridor, both TL 16). But
the Vargr generally trail the Imperium by two tech levels (which more or less
works out to a 5 to 1 disadvantage for them).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

<hr>

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 06:14:11 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: The Corridor Invasion

George Herbert writes:
>I think the success [of the Corridor invasions] can largely be "blamed" on 
>Norris; there are hints throughout the stuff which was published that once 
>the ball went up and fullscale civil war erupted within the Imperium proper, 
>Norris (as well as declaring himself Archduke) "encouraged" at least one 
>major Vargr band to move into and block Corridor, to isolate the Marches 
>from the civil war's ravages.  

That a very interesting suggestion, George. It does require us to reevaluate
everything we thought about Norris' character, which is one reason why I
don't much care for it, but it's certainly worth consideration. The trouble
is that even if he did that, he would still have defended his Domain to the
border instead of letting the Vargr gobble up three subsectors and turn six
or eight more into frontier areas.

>Which, in retrospect, was a damn smart move, as nearly everywhere else got 
>blown to bits during the fighting; 

Do you really think so? I would think that a well-integrated defense force
built an maintained by human-controlled worlds (preferably staffed by crew
loyal to him, their own Arch-duke being on the far side of Vland and they
owing him a debt of gratitude for his help against the Vargr) in Corridor 
would be a better help in guarding the Domain than a confused hodge-podge of 
war-ravaged Vargr statelets. And that's supposing that his loyalties were 
actually confined to his own little backyard, that all his concern about 
the Imperium was just so much window-dressing, and that the hypocritical 
SOB didn't really give a damn about the it. 

I still think that it is much more plausible that he (or rather, his fleets)
met the Vilani fleets about midway across Corridor.

>by the end of the Civil War, the Domain of Deneb was by far the largest 
>remaining intact chunk of territory, even with the Vargr and Aslan 
>incursions.

Which, of course, he actually had more than strength enough to hold back.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

<hr>

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 07:11:53 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Corridor invasion

Steven Bonneville writes:
>Chris Cox asked:
>>One other thing, how do we know that the Vargr tech level tops out at 13 and
>>how do we know the this applies to the governments of the Provence sector?
> 
>For one thing, there's that lovely tech-16 world in Gvurrdon; admittedly,
>it doesn't have a usefully high population, but Vargr technology tends to
>be all over the board anyway....

That wolrd is presumably a great aberration. Vargr maximum TL is said to be
TL 13, but this is obviously not discovery TL (since there has been 300
years for Imperial traitors to sell TL 15 secrets to them); it must be
application TL. Propably a result of their constant small-scale infighting;
their economies generally are weaker than Imperial economies (this also fits
with the Aslans being max TL 14; they fight more than the Imperium, but less
than the Vargr).

> Is it possible we're missing something here that makes it easier for the
> Vargr to invade than humans?  Here's a couple of ideas:
> 
>* One thing TCS didn't cover was commercial shipping.  It assumed that all 
>those ships were military.  We've talked a lot on this list about the need 
>for 100,000 d-ton jump-4 civilian bulk carriers traveling the xboat routes 
>in the Imperium.  Imperial practice is not to arm these ships very heavily, 
>and use the Navy to protect them.  In the Extents, I'd expect this shipping 
>to be more heavily armed in general.

Sounds plausible.

>This might allow Vargr commercial vehicles to be pressed into service as 
>oversized light combatants -- and they might be convertible into something 
>heavier at need.  

But doing so for even a few months would bugger up their home economies
really bad.

>You'd need them anyway, to bring supplies in and haul out booty.  (Which 
>raises the question, what booty makes this sort of invasion worthwhile?  
>The Vargr aren't dumb.  Of course, they could just be getting even for 
>the Vargr Campaigns....) :)  

No, the main Vargr motivation is plunder.

>* Would it make a difference if the RVE were quietly supporting the Vargr?  

Possibly, though the RVE is half the size of the Domain and has far more 
trouble with Lucan than the Domain has with the Vargr and the Aslans. If
they did they'd have to be _real_ careful not to be caught doing it. They
don't need an angry Norris breathing down their neck.

>(Do they have a reason to want to?)  

Possibly to isolate themselves from the Domain. They may be afraid that
Norris would come bulling through on his way to the throne like Olav and
Arbellatra before him.

>Or Deneb?  

I don't see why.

>How much support would be needed to make a difference?

Well, let's do a rough strength comparison. The Domain can call on the
well-coorditated ressources of 34 subsectors. The Vargr border is 12
subsectors wide. How deep is it? Remember that no matter how eager a
corsair leader is to go to the promised land in Corridor, he is still
running a commercial enterprise. At some point raiding a neighbor just
across the border becomes a better bet than going through several
subsectors of potentially hostile neighbors to raid, then move the
loot back. And in any case, the corsairs is, as has been shown, a
negligible part of the Vargr strength. If Mikesh and other high-population
worlds in Corridor is to be conquered it has to be done by national navies.
And I don't think even a Vargr ruler will be dumb enough to seek conquests
on the far side of a neighbour. So I'd say 2-3 subsectors deep. That's
the resources of some 24-36 subsectors, but certainly not the full
resources and most certainly not well-coordinated. Add to this an average
TL disadvantage of two TLs and the Domain outnumbers its combined enemies
by _at least_ 5 to 1.

>* How much of the population of Corridor is Vargr?  I'm not implying that 
>the Corridor Vargr like the Provence Vargr -- they've been Imperial for 
>800 years.  No, I'm wondering if Lucan lost enough charisma for pulling 
>out too much of their fleet (and for being questionable as Emperor) that 
>we're seeing some sort of secession or internal turmoil that's gotten 
>overlooked by the human reporters in the general chaos of the situation.  

That's a good idea and quite plausible.

>That could hamper the Imperial defense some.  On the other hand, is it 
>possible that some human governments have *caused* turmoil by assuming 
>without cause that their Vargr citizens are disloyal, and treating them
>as the enemy?  I doubt this is much of an issue, but it certainly is 
>something to think about.

It all depends on how many Vargr citizens there are in Corridor.

>* Do the Utuvogh tirades make Vargr more comfortable with sending a
>greater percentage of their raiding fleet into the Imperium?  

Oh, definitely.

>One thing to remember is that even if the Imperium has enough force 
>to defend in spots, they can't launch reprisals right now, either.
>Other Vargr governments might be able to if they were targeted.

Good point. Works with Corridor, where most if not all the jump-capable
ships have been taken away, but not with the Domain. After watching the 
Zhodani do nothing for a few months Norris would definitely begin to
divert some of the new reinforcements to retaliate against any overly
optimistic Vargr.

>*Is it possible to close Corridor just by blockading most of the high-
>population worlds? In other words, can the Vargr dominate the low-
>population worlds and cut off travel, leaving the high pop worlds alone?  

Oh, definitely. with no jump-capable ships in Corridor and most of the
Domain fleets rushed to the Zhodani border the Vargr will have a field
day against the low- and low-medium population worlds. At first.

>This might cause most of the effects that are observed in Established 
>History, except damage to high-pop worlds.

Yes, but I've never objected to the Vargr intrusion in Corridor. I've
objected to Vargr intrusions across the domain border and I've objected
to the Vargr _staying_ in Corridor for longer than it takes for Norris
and/or the high-population worlds in Corridor to reactivate/build a few 
fleets.
 
>* This doesn't explain Depot.  But the Vargr like pack attacks.  Depot is 
>an obvious prize.  Assuming the Vargr could manage to get this organized, 
>what would happen if even 75% of the invading fleet that Provence might 
>support could hit Depot at once, in 1118 (before much construction could 
>be finished)?  

I haven't complained about the attack on Depot, because it is almost
impossible to say just how well defended it was. If its prewar population 
wasn't more than the 1000 mentioned in the Corridor data in TD#19 then 
they were very poorly defended and their ship-building capacity was
laughably small.

>Could smaller, but similar attacks on a massive scale work on a high-
>population world?  

Not in my opinion. The defensive forces of a high-population world is
formidable if they conform to the TCS rules. 

>Admittedly, we have some evidence that the Vargr were allowed to take Depot 
>mostly intact, but we also have evidence that this is the sort of strategy
>they used.

Yes, whereever they could gain superiority. But it takes an enormous force
to gain superiority over a high-population world.

>In fact, this last idea merits a closer look.  The Imperial defensive
>problem is to hold Corridor; failing that, the high-population worlds
>and the xboat line.  

No, the Vargr problem is that the high-population worlds are too heavily
guarded. They can't be rushed and given time they will begin to be able 
to push back.

>They have to spread out whatever force they have to cover a number of 
.potential targets.  

They can't. They don't have any sizable force of jump capable ships to
begin with. They have to hunker down and reactivate or build them. That
takes time. But it dosen't take more than four or five years, tops.

To paraphrase a English admiral (Napoleonic Era): "I didn't say they
couldn't come. I merely said they couldn't come to stay."
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

<hr>

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 00:25:52 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Water on Starships

[A brief response on something I have minimal interest in.  Probably
one of my last unless I happen to have some spare time on my hands
again...]
Fri, 3 Jan 1997 20:21:44 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> No they don't (see above).And a starship has a lot more thrust.
>
>Talk to a loadmaster for a cargo plane. Especially ones that carry
>*heavy* loads. You'd bettrer believe that they balance the load! The
>plane becomes unsafe to fly if you have large masses off-center.

First of all, this doesn't address the point that a starship has
more thrust (more aking to a stuttle, etc.).  Second of all
are talking about just not making sure the cargo is all on one
side.  I have not problem with, when you have cargo with weights
comparable to that of the ship, making sure it's well distributed.

However, this is not the same thing carrying a lot of water so
you can pump it around to make sure things are exactly balanced.

>>>Bull.
>>
>> Not a very detailed or convincing line of reasoning. :-)
>
>It has exactly the *same* informational content as your response , only
>mine is briefer.

I have made of point of explaining that a ship
with kind of thrust a ship that can lift it's own weight,
in multiple orientations, is not going to have throuble with
fine balance because a) The forces involved are minor compared
to the thrust and b) it already has to handle other forces
(winds, flying while tilted) that are just as big.  However,
my comment was meant as a joke and I don't see it as a big
deal.  If you feel you have been offended, I'm sorry about
that.  If you want to say it's all realy my fault, go ahead.

>>>I'll bet you that the Shuttle's loads are *very* carefully calculated
>>>to balance the load.  And since the loads are *not* moved around while
>>>the main engines are in use, that makes it a *considerably* different
>>
>> The thing burns off large fuel loads and drops off solid fuel rockets
>> while under heavy thrust.  It undergoes considerable changes in
>> balance.
>
>And those shifts are *designed in*. It's a lot different dealing with
>*unexpected* shifts.

First of all, your system that isn't designed to handle
unexpected shifts.  You stated that you weren't
talking about using pumping  water for *dynamic* balance
but for *static* balance.

More to the point.  If a shuttle can handle large shifts in weight
balance during flight, I certainly doesn't need to have the weight
carefully balanced before flight (which would be pointless since
the balance is going to change anyway) and it doesn't need to
pump water around to acheive this effect (and, in fact, it
doesn't do this).

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

<hr>

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 23:46:05 +1300
From: a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz (Andrew Vallance)
Subject: Re: Mikesh starport and Vargr technology

>Chris Cox writes:
>>Hans wrote:
>>>Well, a fleet is quite a big thing. If the Vargr version is roughly 
>>>equivalent to an Imperial fleet it is something like 3 TCr Squadrons. But 
>>>a world like Mikesh would be defended by the equivalent of 180-200 TCr 
>>>squadrons if we go by TCS straight rules or by 36-40 of them if we go by 
>>>analogy with what we know of the regular Imperial forces.

>>Mikesh has a Class C starport.  That means that they do not build starships
>>or even spaceships. So, the main form of defense would have come from the
>>Imperial fleet which as we all know was sent elsewhere.

>First of all, that is not quite correct. There is a rule somewhere that worlds
>with the requisite tech level can build ships of up to 5000 T displacement
>even without B or A starports. (I can't remember precisely where it is; can
>anyone help us out with that?). Granted, restricting Mikesh to 5000 T ships
>will handicap it somewhat, but they'll have that many more of them.

High Guard (pp 20):
  "....A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders
   of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its
   planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present."

This gives no limitation on size at all. The way I'd play it is that any world
with sufficent tech can build a ship, but without a shipyard you can't get
a class discount or speed up delivery

However if you follow the rules set out in Striker Book 2 pp38-39, you
get Mikesh having a GNP of MCr1,200,000,000. Taking military spending
as 3% of GNP you get a budget of MCr36,000,000. Now 30% of this goes
to the Imperium and of the rest 60% goes to the navy; giving a naval
budget of MCr15,120,000 (thats allows a standing navy of 151 TCS!!!)
Even if they've only built 5,000T ships, thats still going to take some
wadding through!

>Secondly, Mikesh suposedly has a class C starport in 1120 after being taken
>over by Vargr. I'm not surprised that their starport isn't up to snuff after
>being attacked by 13+ Vargr fleets. However, that dosen't say anything about 
>what it was in 1117. You may believe that a TL 14 world with 60 billion 
>people wouldn't build its own ships. I don't. (For one thing, it would take 
>a humongous merchant fleet to move the Mikesh taxes to some other world and 
>build the ships there; it is uch more efficient to build the ships where the 
>wealth is generated).

No it wouldn't, one 100T scout could do it (more likely a 100T x-boat though),
tax in kind went out of fashion a while ago, it just got too hard lugging
all those
sheep around :*). Mikesh's taxes would almost certainly take the form of an
electronic funds transfer, even if it was shipped as currency notes a stack
of 1,000 x Cr10,000 notes (the largest domination) weighs 500 grams and
takes up 75mm x 125mm x 50mm [Imperial Encyclopedia pp 22]. Doing a
few quick sums I get 1T of cargo space (14m3) storing Mcr298,666.666 (well
I was bored). So you can fit Mikesh's entire GNP in a little over 4,000T of
cargo
space (now that's some target for piracy!).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
This is air traffic contol
All our operators are busy at the moment
So please land your plane after the tone
Beeeeeeeeepp.
****************************************************************************

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 22:37:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipboard gas mix (fwd)

In mail you write:

>> Show me a stateroom with no cloth/etc exposed as part of the
>> furnishings. And you *gravely* underestimate both the rate of spread
>> and the *intensity* of a fire in a pure O2 atmosphere. Things like
>> cloth and plastics burn at unbelievable rates. 
>
> All the clothing and such should/would be stowed on a well run ship. I have
> been playing Traveller since the late 70's (78/79?) and in that whole time
> it has always been clear to me that stowage of possessions was not like your
> bedroom but like the shuttle, everything had its place and if you weren't
> using it put it in its place. The last thing you want on a spacecraft is a
> bunch of stuff flying around balisticaly if something goes wrong. I always
> envisioned a stateroom, upon entry, to be nothing more than a small room
> with lots of panels. Want to sleep, pull down the bed/desk panel, etc. So if
> a stateroom was say 8ft by 8ft the actual space available to the occupant
> would be like 8ft by 4ft with the remainder taken up by stowage lockers and
> relevant piping and support systems.

I (and many others) expect them to look more like a cabin on a ship.
There will be lots of storage space, but there will be "permanent" beds
and a desk/table etc. Crews likely have bad things to say about most
inexperienced passengers and the way they leave things lying around the
cabin. 

They also snicker a lot when "newbies" fail to stow things before
watching landings/takeoffs in the "lounge" and then come back to a
cabin that looks like a tornado has been thru it. :-)

> I don't 'gravely' underestimate anything. I use a launch system for my
> high-performance rockets that burns regular speaker wire insulation in a
> oxygen environment to launch my birds. I spent 7 years working in a
> science museum (Discovery Hall, Austin, TX) building exhibits (40+) on a
> variety of subjects and I assure you burning things in oxygen is something I
> am quite familiar with. If you ever get a chance get a small bottle of O2
> and put a firecracker under a can and bleed in the O2, truley impressive
> (hint: be shure to be heads down and far away).

I had a (*stupid*) roommate who filled a small trashbag (10 liters?)
with oxygen and acetylene then set it off in the backyard. He didn't
*quite* blow out the windows....

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #813
**********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, January 5 1997       Volume 1996 : Number 814



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Heat Tolerance in Starships
What Milieus are to be produced? 
Size in the Sky
Re: Newbie
Re: Wanted: F.F.S.
Re: Newbie
Re: JTAS Charges
SSDS
NAH: Hulls
Re: SSDS
Re: SSDS
Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 
CT adventure found in FLGS
Re: SSDS
Re: SSDS
Re: [T4] Substitute Skills
Re: SSDS
NAH| Custom Hulls (long)

<hr><hr>----------

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:06:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Heat Tolerance in Starships

In mail, jamesd@spirit.com.au writes:

>   True. So to make any progress, we would have to assume that the 
> features for getting rid of waste heat are included as standard. Using
> that assumption, then what sort of result do we get?

The problem is that radiated energy per unit area is another way of
describing *temperature*. So either the ships violate the laws of
thermo dynamics by having the radiators much, *much* hotter than what
they are cooling, or the radiators are bigger than the ship.

> What sort of 
> capacity does/did the Space Shuttle or the Apollo rockets have to get rid 
> of excess energy?

The inner side of the cargo bay doors on the Shuttle are covered with
radiators. And they need them! And this is for a ship that uses
*kilowatts* of power.

>> The above applies to a ship in space. If it is in an atmosphere, or on
>> a planetary (or even asteroid) surface things get more complicated.

>   So if the ship was to land on a planet similar to Mercury (ie close to
> the star and no atmosphere), what would the result be? On the dark side,
> they would only really have to worry about the planetary effects - latent
> temp etc. On the light side, would they have to deal with any difference
> than in space?

On an airless world, you have to worry about conductive transfer via
the portions of the ship that are in contact with the surface, and
radiative transfer from the areas visible to the ship. So the "dark"
side of the ship is getting heated by the heat radiating from the
planet's surface.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

<hr>

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 97 02:01:36 UT
From: "Arthur Murphy" <MycroftHolmes@msn.com>
Subject: What Milieus are to be produced? 

Hello all, 

Perhaps I missed it, because I have only been on the mailing list for a few 
weeks, but what Milieus are to be produced?  Is there a list of planned 
releases?

Arthur
Mycrofthomes@MSN.com
MCSE Consultant
We hack, and that's a fact, Jack!

<hr>

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 22:55:38 +0900
From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Subject: Size in the Sky

I have a couple of questions:

I saw in the book World-Building (Gillett, S.) that the size of a planet (or 
whatever) in the sky can be calculated as:

size in degrees = 57.3 * diameter of object / distance

However, the book states that this calculation is inaccurate for results 
over 20 degrees, and trig becomes necessary, and it doesn't give the 
formula.  The planet I'm designing is tidally locked to it's gas giant 
primary, and the result I get with the above formula is over 28 degrees. 
 What is the formula I need?

Thanks,

Armand

<hr>

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 07:31:15 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Newbie

> I'm also interested in getting into a game of some sort over the net.  Is
> anyone interested in trying to run a campaign over the IRC or by use of
> something like Microsoft's NetMeeting?  If so, I'd like to participate
> and/or help in any way I could.
>  
> Chip

Keep an eye on Commander X's web site:

http://www.magicnet.net/~opp-mag/

His site will soon be home to the #traveller home page, and he plans
to include a list of all IRC games currently in process (two running
and one about to start) and to post any games forming and who to
contact about joining those games.

Thank you, Commander X, for your work in supporting #traveller.

Suz 


 
suzd@goodnet.com

<hr>

Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 08:35:21 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Wanted: F.F.S.

John P. Raynor wrote:
> 
> I hope this is not an inappropriate use of the mailing list - if it is,
> please forgive me.  I would like to purchase a copy of F.F.S.
> Unfortunately, I have been unable to find one, and I have already looked
> at several different gaming shops.  Does anyone know where I might be able
> to find a copy of this elusive book?  I am willing to pay more than the
> cover price, even for a worn, but legible, copy.
>                                                               - J. Raynor

Okay, gang. Since I've seen a number of calls for out of print or hard
to find Traveller items, I'll let everyone in on one of my collector's
secrets. I've found a store that has a *ton* of Traveller stuff
(all versions) available. The proprietor has been very conscientious
about shipping on time and protecting the shipping with bubble
packaging.
Although some items may be considered pricey by some folks, when this
guy
says talks about an item's condition being "mint", "very good", etc., he
knows what he's talking about. His URL is:

http://www.titan-games.com/

Check out his site; it's very simple but has a great RPG inventory. BTW,
I get first dibs on the Vlezhdatl deckplans (if he ever finds a copy).

<hr>

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 97 16:04 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Newbie

In-Reply-To: <19970103183201.AAA1857@LOCALNAME>

<< I played under the original rules, even tried GMing a little and 
always thought Traveller was under rated by the gaming public. >>

Nope, it's always been popular - since it came out, it's always been 
rated as one of the top 5 RPGs (in the recent Arcane poll it came 3rd 
(behind D&D and CoC), which I think is exactly where it was placed in a 
White Dwarf poll I remember seeing about 10-15 years ago).

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

<hr>

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 03:27:23 +0100 (MET)
From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: JTAS Charges

On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, John Kovalic wrote:
> >Just a quick announcement:
> >Imperium Games is now reversing all of the JTAS shipping charges.  There
> >will be no shipping charge for JTAS subscriptions.
> >- -Joe
> Since I've spent a fair amount of time criticizing IG, I, for one, would
> like to congratulate them on a very good decision. Huzzah!

I also only can congratulate them (although my personal opinion is that
probably Courtney's positive influence is felt once more) since this
probably saves them some serious trouble.  There really still seems to be
hope :-)

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 

<hr>

Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 10:03:42 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: SSDS

Quick question:

Where on the net can I download SSDS?  I am not going to pay $20 just for
the design system when the rest of Starships is useless to me.

Thanks

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

<hr>

Date: Sun, 05 Jan 97 12:33:43 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: NAH: Hulls

I don't think this message made it out.  If it did, and you get  a second
copy...sorry. <g>

Eris
- ----
This message is a repost of one sent on Sun Jan 05 at 05:04:00  by 
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch). 
- ----

Let's talk hulls for a minute.

I spent some time this weekend with FFS, my handy-dandy "Book of Formulae",
and my calculator doodling with starship hulls.  You see, I've never been
really clear as to what the various hull
configurations, except Sphere <g>, really looked like, and that's important
if you want to produce a deckplan.

From my tinkering here's what I came up with. . .

Box - From the way MV and L are figured this would have to be a
    cube.  At first, I thought it might be a rectangular box, but the
    numbers only work out if it's a cube.

Needle - The MV and L indicate a ~4.5x1 length to width ratio for
    this configuration.  That's a little short for what I thought a
    "needle" would be, but that's it.  I figure this is a thin
    cylinder with a sharply pointed nose.  I'll admit, I figured it
    as a cylinder and finessed the nose.
         
Cylinder - This worked out to ~2.45x1 length to width.  That's a
    *fat* Cylinder!  Again shorter than I thought.  I figured this
    as having flat ends, but I'm sure there would be some rounding.
    
Wedge - I wasn't sure at all about this configuration, but my idea
    was that it looked vaguely like a doorstop.  The length to width
    ratio for this one worked out to ~1.5 to 1.
    
Dome/Disc - I didn't work this one out.

Slab - Just *what* is a slab?  I decided to try to do this one as
    3x2x1 rectangular box.  When I worked the numbers out, I got
    about 3.3x1 length to width...if I made the width the small
    side. 
    
Open Frame - Huh?  A combination of shapes, perhaps?  An "Outsider"
    ship?

Close Frame - Double huh?  A combination of shapes, but within a
    enclosed frame?  Voyager, the Enterprise?

I *assume* that small wings/control surfaces don't count in the hull
configuration.  A cargo plane would be a cylinder...or needle...with wings
attached.  That's why you throw in the extra area for
airframes, right?

About Custom configurations:

FFS calculates things based on the shape being a sphere.  It then uses a
ratio of a non-spherical shape to the sphere to calculate the additional
surface area that the non-spherical shape requires, *and* it's length. 
From the surface area you can figure out how much mass and volume the
hull/armor takes.  From the length you can *maybe* figure out the width and
height.  This works, but I'd like to be able to use my own configurations,
not just the ones in the table.  (BTW, I think GDW did some pretty funky
rounding...heck, I think they just plain bunged some of the numbers in the
hull table.)


General Formulas for a few shapes:


Sphere, given a volume figure. . .

    Sr = .62(vol^1/3);   d = 2r;  Area = 4(pi)(Sr^2)


Cylinder. . .

    vol = L(pi)(r^2);  Area = 2(pi)(r)(L) + 2(pi)(r^2); 
    
    r = (vol/(L*pi)^(1/2);   L = vol/pi*(r^2)
    
    given Sr  -->  L = LengthMod[2] * Sr, use L to calculate r.
    
    (I'd be more likely to choose a radius I preferred and calculate
     L from that.)

    
Cube. . .

    vol = L^3;  Area = 6(L^2);  L = vol^(1/3)

    given Sr  -->  L = LengthMod[1.24] * Sr.

    
Wedge. . .

    vol = (1/2)(L)(B^2); Area = (B^2) + (B*L) + sqrt(B^2 + L^2) * B
    
    B = sqrt(2*vol/L)
    
    given Sr  -->  L = LengthMod[2.5] * Sr, use L to calculate B.


Rectangle, with width=height called S. . .

    vol = L * S^2;  Area = 2(S^2) + 4(L*S)
    
    S = sqrt(vol/L)
    
    given Sr  -->  L = LengthMod[x] * Sr, use L to calculate S.
    
    (I suggest values of 3 to 6 for x.)


Rectangle, with width<>height<>length. . .

    vol = L * W * H;  Area = 2(L*H) + 2(L*W) + 2(H*W)
    
    (You will need to *choose* either W or H.)
    
    
Hull Plating Volume --> HPV = Area*(thickness in cm)/100 

Hull Plating Mass = HPV*(Mass value from table)


I haven't thought out the internal structure volume yet.  I'd like to think
we can do it without referencing any tables except material toughness.
         
Ok gearheads, am I barking up the wrong tree here?  <g> 

If I'm *not*, then how about some help with more shapes and the internal
structure formulas.

If I am, how about pointing me toward the correct tree. <g>


Eris


- -----------------------------------------------
 -- End of reposted message
- -----------------------------------------------

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 13:57:09 -0500
From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
Subject: Re: SSDS

- ------------4BA02EF5307A0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 Hey why dont You just take the twenty bucks You are going to save by
burning IG and go take some morality lessons. Theft is theft so don't
expect much help here.

- ------------4BA02EF5307A0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<HTML><BODY>

<DT>&nbsp;Hey why dont You just take the twenty bucks You are going to
save by burning IG and go take some morality lessons. Theft is theft so
don't expect much help here.</DT>

</BODY>
</HTML>
- ------------4BA02EF5307A0--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 13:57:15 -0500
From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
Subject: Re: SSDS

- ------------4752267344E72
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 Hey why dont You just take the twenty bucks You are going to save by
burning IG and go take some morality lessons. Theft is theft so don't
expect much help here.

- ------------4752267344E72
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<HTML><BODY>

<DT>&nbsp;Hey why dont You just take the twenty bucks You are going to
save by burning IG and go take some morality lessons. Theft is theft so
don't expect much help here.</DT>

</BODY>
</HTML>
- ------------4752267344E72--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:10:27 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 

On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Arthur Murphy wrote:

> Perhaps I missed it, because I have only been on the mailing list for a few 
> weeks, but what Milieus are to be produced?  Is there a list of planned 
> releases?

No, there isn't a complete, specific list at this time.  But if you have a 
copy of T4, it does list some specific Milieux they want to explore 
(Grandfather's time, the CT era, the Rebellion, Virus Era, the Far FAr 
Future, the Heat Death of the Universe, etc.).  I've also heard rumors of 
stepping through the year 0 through 1400 period by 100 or 200 years (that 
is, a miliue book for each 100 or 200 years).  Nothing specific or 
definite though.

Besides, I think they have to focus on getting a core rules system and 
some adventures out there before doing any more settings. :)

BTW, M0 and First Survey should be out by this time next month, if all 
goes well.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 12:04:10 -0800
From: cwebb@ctainforms.com (Christopher E. Webb)
Subject: CT adventure found in FLGS

I don't know how many people's interested, but I found two copies of a FASA
CT Double Adventure (The Harrensa Project/The Stazhlekh Report) at my local
game store for US$1.  I picked up one of the copies -- is anyone interested
in the other?  

Christopher Webb
cwebb@mail.ctainforms.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 12:03:57 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: SSDS

At 13:57 05/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
> Hey why dont You just take the twenty bucks You are going to save by
>burning IG and go take some morality lessons. Theft is theft so don't
>expect much help here.
><HTML><BODY>

Uhh...SSDS was developd online by some Traveller Mailing List people for
inclusion in the T4 Starships supplement (QSDS was also developed online by
TML\GDW-Beta people).  It is still available online, and IG does not stop
the SSDS\QSDS being available online.


__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 14:33:42 -0600
From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: SSDS

At 10:03 AM 1/5/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Quick question:
>
>Where on the net can I download SSDS?  I am not going to pay $20 just for
>the design system when the rest of Starships is useless to me.
>
>Thanks
>

Doug, 

Try Joe Heck's Web page at Http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller I
believe that I got my copy there. You might also check with Dave Golden's
Web page he has some additions to SSDS. FYI Joe's site appears to having
some problems, ie offline.

Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>

< Hey why don't You just take the twenty bucks You are going to save by
<burning IG and go take some morality lessons. Theft is theft so don't
<expect much help here.

Why don't you forcibly introduce in a pulsating manner, silicon cubic
particles, into you rear excretory opening.

Sorry about that but the SSDS material is availble on the net and has been
before Starships was published. I feel that Charlie is "trolling", or is one
of the "Clueless".

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 14:43:03 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: [T4] Substitute Skills

On  4 Jan 97 at 18:56, Franklin W. Cain wrote:


> What are your thoughts on this idea?  

Hey, Franklin,

Normally, I like this type of rules extraplolation, but my comment is 
that it depends on what task system you are using.

If you are using the straight system as printed in the T4 main book, 
then your idea is great.  The addition of one point, one way or the 
other, gives players a benefit without giving them too much.

OTOH, if you are using a T4 task system fix in order to down play the 
part natural ability plays in the success of a task roll and increase 
the role skill takes, your system would not work well.

Using my task system fix, KBv1.1, players must halve the ability 
score and double the skill level to reach a target number.  It's 
obvious, using such a system, that your "interchangeable skill 
levels" would effect the target number with much more impact.

Thinking about this, I have a semi-rule in my games that I haven't 
quite nailed down yet.  It uses the notion of similiar skills too.

Let's say you have Guass Rifle-3 and you are trying to use a regular 
rifle.  I normal let players use like weapons--all rifle types--at 
one level lower.  So, under this rule, a player could pick up a 
regular rifle and use it at skill level 2.

Taking this a step further, let's say that the same Guass Rifle-3 
character wants to use a similiar but significatly different weapon 
like a laser rifle.  Basicall, the task is still to aim and pull the 
trigger, so I would let this player use his Guass Rifle-3 at 1/2 and 
drop fractions.  This would give him a Laser Rifle-1 skill.

There's a lot of little ways to play around with this idea of 
similiar skills.  In CT, the rule book said that all characters have 
a skill level of 0 with all of the weapons mentioned in the book.  T4 
has gone a step further and created a skill of Rifle and Pistol to 
cover all of the similiar skills.

I welcome any other thoughts on this matter.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 16:38:39 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: SSDS

At 12:03 PM 1/5/97 -0800, you wrote:
>At 13:57 05/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>> Hey why dont You just take the twenty bucks You are going to save by
>>burning IG and go take some morality lessons. Theft is theft so don't
>>expect much help here.
>><HTML><BODY>
>
>Uhh...SSDS was developd online by some Traveller Mailing List people for
>inclusion in the T4 Starships supplement (QSDS was also developed online by
>TML\GDW-Beta people).  It is still available online, and IG does not stop
>the SSDS\QSDS being available online.
>

I explained this in a private email to this... person.  Interesting that his
post came through on Eudora as having highest priority, and that he doesn't
seem to understand when to use html.

I love it when some lurker suddenly posts for the first time that I can
recall and starts making pronouncements in the list's name...

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Jan 97 17:55:35 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: NAH| Custom Hulls (long)

Hi,

I'm back with 4 Custom Hulls for folks to play with.  These formulae should
be good for any sized hull.  They don't, yet, take
streamlining or airframes into account, nor internal structure or price.  

Take a look and tell me what you think.

Eris

===========================================================
Rounded Cylinder (3.5x1) - Semi-spherical Nosecone=10%vol;
                    Cylindrical Body=90%vol.  Streamlined, by the
                    nature of its shape.
                    
1.  Nose Vol:  NV = vol * 20%   [yes 20%]

2.  Radius:  r = .62 * NV^(1/3)

3.  Nose Area:  NA = 2 * pi * r^2

4.  Final NV:  NV = NV/2

5.  Body Vol:  BV = vol - NV

6.  Body Length:  BL = BV/(pi * r^2)

7.  Body Area:  BA = (2pi*r*BL) + (pi * r^2)

8.  Total Area:  A = NA+BA

9.  Total Length:  L = r+BL

10. Total Width:  W = 2r

    [Not exact, but close enough...]
    
11.  Volume of Hull Plating:  HPV = A * (cm of armor)/100 

12.  Hull Mass:  HM = HPV * (Material Mass)
                                                    
                                                    
===========================================================

Needle Cylinder (8x1) - 4h to 1r Conical Nosecone=10% vol,
                Cylindrical Body=90% vol.  Streamlined, by the
                nature of its shape.
 

1.  NV = vol * 10%  [10% for a cone]

2.  r =  .62 * NV^(1/3)

3.  NL = 4r

4.  NV = (pi * r^2 * NL)/3

5.  Cone Diagonial:  a = (r^2 + NL^2)^(1/2)

6.  NA = pi * r * a

7.  BV = vol - NV

8.  BL = BV/(pi * r^2)

9.  BA = (2pi * r * BL) + (pi * r^2)

10. A = NA + BA

11. L = NL + BL

12. W = 2r

    [Not exact, but close enough...]
    
13.  Volume of Hull Plating:  HPV = A * (cm of armor)/100 

14.  Hull Mass:  HM = HPV * (Material Mass)

===========================================================

Sharp Nosed Box (4x1) - 1 to 1 Pyramid Nose=10%, Right Regular
                Rectrangler Box=90% vol.
                
1.  NV = vol * 10%

2.  Side:  s = (3*NV)^(1/3)

3.  Height:  h = s

4.  NV = (s^3)/3

5.  NA = (s/2 * (2^(1/2)) + 4s

6.  BV = vol - NV

7.  BL = BV/(s^2)

8.  BA = 4*BL * s + S^2

9.  A = NA + BA

10. L = h + BL

11. W = s

    [Not exact, but close enough...]
    
12.  Volume of Hull Plating:  HPV = A * (cm of armor)/100 

13.  Hull Mass:  HM = HPV * (Material Mass)

===========================================================

Needle Nosed Box (8x1) - 2 to 1 Pyramid Nose=10% vol, Right Regular
                    Rectangular Box Body=90% vol.
                    
1.  NV = vol*10%

2.  s = (1.5*NV)^(1/3)

3.  h = 2s

4.  NV = (h * s^2)/3

5.  NA = .5 * (h^2 + s^2)^(1/2) * 4s

6.  BV = vol - NV

7.  BL = BV / s^(1/2)

8.  BA = 4s*BL + s^2

9.  A = NA + BA

10. L = h + BL

11. W = s

    [Not exact, but close enough...]
    
12.  Volume of Hull Plating:  HPV = A * (cm of armor)/100 

13.  Hull Mass:  HM = HPV * (Material Mass)

===========================================================

There are some things I still have to work out.  For one thing, there has
to be a minimun plating thickness based on acceleration. Fro another, I
still haven't quite figured out how to handle internal structure.  But, I'm
making progress.

I'm also thinking about a double hull system.  The inner hull would be the
rectangular deckplan space that we *actually* work with.  The space between
the inner and out hulls would be where the jump grid, grav control devices,
etc are located.  The outer hull would be a shell of armor around the
outside of the inner hull.  I'm still thinking.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #814
**********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, January 6 1997       Volume 1996 : Number 815



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Size in the Sky
Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 
Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 
History of the Imperium?
Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 
I _finally_ got CSC!
Skills Spacers Money
Galactic List up and running
Giving the TL5 Natives FGMP-15s...
re muon fusion
Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 
The "Imperial Hope" - includes USP - longish
Message for Commander X
Imperial Press Release: XTech Industries
Re: NAS Systems
Re: Newbie
Form FF&S to T4
Planet X--The Commander's Web Site
Grrrr
Ship Accomodations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 17:49:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Size in the Sky

> Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 22:55:38 +0900
> From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
> 
> I saw in the book World-Building (Gillett, S.) that the size of a planet (or 
> whatever) in the sky can be calculated as:
> 
> size in degrees = 57.3 * diameter of object / distance
> 
> However, the book states that this calculation is inaccurate for results 
> over 20 degrees, and trig becomes necessary, and it doesn't give the 
> formula.  The planet I'm designing is tidally locked to it's gas giant 
> primary, and the result I get with the above formula is over 28 degrees. 
>  What is the formula I need?

Call the radius of the planet R, and your distance to the center of the
planet D.  Given that the angle from you, to the limb of the planet, to
the center of the planet is a right angle, with D being the hypotenuse, we
may derive:

  sin(theta/2) = R/D

where theta is the angular size of the planet in your sky.  Solving for
theta gives:

  theta = 2 arcsin(R/D)

Note carefully that we use the radius of the planet, not its diameter, in
the formula above, and that D is the distance from the center of the
planet, not its surface.

A quick reality check:  For D=R, R/D = 1, arcsin(1) is 90 degrees, double
that is 180 degrees -- and the planet fills half the sky, as expected when
you're standing on it.  For D >> R, R/D approaches 0, arcsin(0) is 0,
double that is still 0, and the angular size of the planet approaches 0,
as expected when very far from it.

Hope this helps!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:51:38 -0500
From: "athol-brose" <cinnamon@one.net>
Subject: Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 

> Besides, I think they have to focus on getting a core rules system and 
> some adventures out there before doing any more settings. :)

What do you mean, any more settings? :) IMO, M0 should have come before CSC
and Aliens... I would have preferred it simultaneously with T4.

> BTW, M0 and First Survey should be out by this time next month, if all 
> goes well.  

M0/FS is going to be the product that decides whether I continue to buy
Traveller product or whether I'm going to give up on it. I feel burned with
Starships, and my enthusiasm is... waning.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 22:43:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Led Mirage <lmirage@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 

On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, athol-brose wrote:

> What do you mean, any more settings? :) IMO, M0 should have come before CSC
> and Aliens... I would have preferred it simultaneously with T4.

No kidding. If T4 EVER wants to pick up any NEW players (not the old
geezers who've been playing CT), they'd better get out some kind of
setting NOW! Imagine this great sci. fi. role-playing just came out,
claiming great history, constantly referring to this mythical Imperium,
yet hardly any information is available in the single rule book. Just the
ticket to get new players into playing T4.

> M0/FS is going to be the product that decides whether I continue to buy
> Traveller product or whether I'm going to give up on it. I feel burned with
> Starships, and my enthusiasm is... waning.

I checked out Starships in my local gaming store. Right now I'm getting
more and more skeptical about IG. How's Central Supply Catalogue and
Aliens? I haven't gotten the chance to check them out yet. BTW was there
any explanation about why T4 stops at TL12?

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  6 Jan 97 03:33:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: History of the Imperium?

    Just picked up Central Supply and Aliens at the FLGS and yes I agree, the
font used in Aliens is WAY to big.  But while there someone was telling me
about the History of the Imperium Working Group.  Can anyone point me to where
their files are so i can read up on them myself?

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 19:53:54 -0800
From: The Orcslayer <rguy@cdsnet.net>
Subject: Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 

Led Mirage wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, athol-brose wrote:
> 
> > What do you mean, any more settings? :) IMO, M0 should have come before CSC
> > and Aliens... I would have preferred it simultaneously with T4.
> 
> No kidding. If T4 EVER wants to pick up any NEW players (not the old
> geezers who've been playing CT), they'd better get out some kind of
> setting NOW! 

Geezers? Geezers! Hmmf!

Well seeing that your on the net, it's a great resource for finding all 
kinds of setting and background for Traveller. :)

Joe Hamrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:58:30 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: I _finally_ got CSC!

I finally got my grubby opposable-thumb-equipped hands on CSC the other day
- -- just in time for today's Sunday Follies (look for an update on the Web
page). 

Opinion: MUCH, MUCH better than _Starships_ or even Da Core Book.

High Points: Cover art, battledress stats, overall completeness, improved
editing/layout, lack of Foss color "inferior" art, vehicle design system,
computer rules.

Low points: Price was too damned high, not enough vehicular weapons.

- --Rich Ostorero
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  6 Jan 97 09:00:00 GMT 
From: e.gutierrez3@genie.com
Subject: Skills Spacers Money

Douglas E. Berry Wrote:
>Ah, well there's still the 49ers... SMASH GREEN BAY!!!!!!!

How 'bout them Whinners (Hell I had to give them 14 points)

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) Wrote:
>Show me a stateroom with no cloth/etc exposed as part of the
>furnishings. And you *gravely* underestimate both the rate of spread
>and the *intensity* of a fire in a pure O2 atmosphere. Things like
>cloth and plastics burn at unbelievable rates.

Not to mention Having to either mix or bleed Atmosphere every time
you crack a Lubed part for maintance. Hell, even polishing those
Marine Issue Dress Leather boots becomes a Hazardous activity..
Any Brownshoes out there? (U.S.Navy Jargon for Airwing crew)

On a diferent thread, I have always wondered why VaccSuit was not
a Basic Service skill for all of the space based careers.
I would expect along with how to brush your teeth it would
be. Oh yea, while I'm there why not rifle for the Marines.
Had a Player roll a grunt who did not receive gun cbt once.
But man could he beat you up..

One for you Solmani History Buffs out there. What are the dates
for the GeneWar it is mentioned in Rats&Cats, but I don't seem
to see any dates explict or infered? (don't tell my boss I'm
supposed to be a better Investigator than that..8-) ) Am
writing a Background/campaign based on the Astromani that ties
the two. I.e. a ship of women, children, and select gentic
material escaping from the SolSec Death Squads is taken in
by a minor Astromani clan..
That and any additional material beyond Paul Gelinas's
HIWG Doc on the Astromani would be much apprciated.

One final note, In the discussion about economics as of late
I noticed one of y'all saying the a actual transfer of goods
was needed to pay y'als taxes. If you use the Venice traders
method you have all ready made the said transfer with the
establishment of off world trade banking. I.e. you have made
a transfer of somthing of value to another world with which
you wish to trade. Then every time you trade on or that world
the local office can handle the transaction crediting your
accounts with proper movement of value (cash paid out for the
goods you wish to buy, cash paid in from which you have sold)
This is the basics, traders will set up their own banking
system if the goverment in question will not. Usualy, goverments
will nogitate banking agreements honoring each others
Instruments (meaning,cash monies, checks, bonds, Gaming checks
(read poker chip) or any items of said value.) and violating this trust
means the loss of what ever assets held by that power or powers
depending on agreements.

MacDude

ps. learning banking theory from a Casinos point of view is both
intresting and scary.. The gnomes married the mob..

pps. Rule of Debit collection, if you sue for monies owed, do it
in nevada court, most other states will not allow suite for the
collection of gambling debts..

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 01:28:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Galactic List up and running

For those of you who've been writing sectors for use with Galactic,
Dakin Burdick <burdickd@indiana.edu> has recently got the "Galactic
Mailing List" up and running. He states the goals of the list as follows:

1.  Coordinate the creation of sector and world data.  The chief aim
    here is to avoid duplication or competition over development plans.
    If two people want to develop the same sector, then the first one to
    claim it takes precedence but may recruit the second to work on it.
    Once a sector is complete and added to the database of course, anyone
    can develop a world or adventure in it, which others must then follow
    in their own work.  These guidelines should increase the speed with
    which we not only develop the Classic sectors (my main interest), but
    also all the other alternate Traveller universes.

2.  Making the various designers aware of the various resources and talents
    of the others.  

To subscribe to the Galactic mailing list, send email to:

    majordomo@indiana.edu

Leave the subject line blank and type in the body of the text:

    subscribe burdickd_galactic

Majordomo will send you some info about the list along with its address.
If you wish to unsubscribe later, send to the majordomo@indiana.edu
address and type:

    unsubscribe burdickd_galactic

By the way, don't include a .SIG file with your message, as this will
mess up a majordomo mailer.

Dakin wants people to introduce themselves in their first message:

   "Tell us your name, email address, the area of galactic that
    you are working on or are interested in, and as much background
    about yourself as you would like to give us."

Anyway, I hope this info comes in handy... seeya on the list perhaps...

jimv@empirenet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 10:27:04 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Giving the TL5 Natives FGMP-15s...

John R. Snead wrote:
>> "Without the proper license, it is against Imperial law to sell, to races 
>> below TL 5, artifacts more than one tech level above the planet's.  (This
>> assumes the world is part of the Imperium and not a Red Zone)."

and John Raynor then asked:

>Please forgive my ignorance...why should the Imperium restrict trade with
>technologically backward planets?...Granted, there isn't very
>much money to be made in trading cellular telephones and automatic rifles
>to backwards savages, in exchange for curious native handicrafts and the
>mineral rights to the planet, but *some* is better than *none* -- or does
>the Imperium want to ease such planets into interstellar society slowly,
>so that eventually they will become prosperous and tribute-paying, thus
>sacrificing a small quick profit for a far larger long-term one? 

In the Milieu 0 book you'll find that the Imperium has a very fixed idea of
how planets should be allowed to develop technologically. And yes, it's all
to do with controlling trade, with the intention both of long term profits
and long term _dependence_ upon the Imperium. There are also obvious points
about trading high tech weapons (for example) to low tech worlds who cannot
(not having the appropriate history) truly comprehend the usage of such
without the possibility that they will annhiliate themselves and perhaps
anyone near them! Technology importation has to be handled quite carefully
and I see that as a major focus of the Scout Corp, certainly during the
formative years of the Imperium. Just letting any old trader import whatever
he liked is going to lead to the T.E.D. situations of TNE, and such a T.E.D.
is then going to resist forcibly anyone else's (e.g. Imperium) attempts to
override their authority.

Anyone on this mailing list like to advocate free trade (including weapons)
to Saddam Hussein? I'm sure he's above TL5?

Anyway, those are _my_ _personal_ thoughts and the way I run my game. If
others prefer to have a less restrictive Imperium, that's up to them -
everyone should be free to run their games as they like.

Andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 97 10:39:17 -0800
From: Timothy Collinson <tc@library.solent.ac.uk>
Subject: re muon fusion

neveron@aol.com wrote:

>Somewhere in my travels across time and whatnot I came across a >reference to a ship using a drive powered by a muonium-hydrogen fu=
sion >plant. It was a type of plasma drive using an enriched water as a >reaction mass. Does anyone else remember this? Or is it jus=
t a product >of a disturbed mind?

Can't be that disturbed - you might find the following URL useful, muon 
catalysed fusion comes in at number 43.

Others might find the entire list interesting too.


http://www.ifi.unizh.ch/groups/ailab/people/schaad/space/Canonical_Space_
transport_list


HTH

tc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 00:14:21 +1300
From: a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz (Andrew Vallance)
Subject: Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 

>On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, athol-brose wrote:

>> What do you mean, any more settings? :) IMO, M0 should have come before CSC
>> and Aliens... I would have preferred it simultaneously with T4.

>No kidding. If T4 EVER wants to pick up any NEW players (not the old
>geezers who've been playing CT), they'd better get out some kind of
>setting NOW! Imagine this great sci. fi. role-playing just came out,
>claiming great history, constantly referring to this mythical Imperium,
>yet hardly any information is available in the single rule book. Just the
>ticket to get new players into playing T4.

The cynical part of me looks at it like this: its all commercial reality.

You have a large established base of players, many now in their 30's
with far higher disposable incomes than your average newbie. This
group generally has a good working knowledge of the background, and
knowledge of RPGs and hard science. *Therefore* As the producer of
the latest edition of the game, you produce the rules first, secure the
loyalty of the established player base (and the really cynical part of me
say's use them as a massive playtest). Then and only then, do you
aim to expand the player base. *Therefore* what gets released first
1:   Basic rules
2:   Equipment and advanced rules
Only after these things do you start producing things such as
background materials and adventures.


  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
This is air traffic contol
All our operators are busy at the moment
So please land your plane after the tone
Beeeeeeeeepp.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: 06 Jan 97 22:23:23 +1100
From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Subject: The "Imperial Hope" - includes USP - longish

     I have fiddled around with QSDS to produce this ship profile for my 
     2000t social science research cruiser. The remainder of this message 
     is a reposting of the matching ship writeup; which makes it painfully 
     obvious that I wrote about the ship long before I had even designed 
     it. Mea culpa, mea culpa. 
     
     The ship is basically unarmed except for a military surplus 4G HEPLAR 
     drive that the captain has had retrofitted for emergency use; pirates 
     that knock out the Hope's maneuver drive might find a rather warm 
     reception if they try to board. 
     
     The Hope is a surplus TL11 merchant, but refitted with TL11 and TL12 
     military gear, such as a military sensor suite and the Heplar drive. 
     
     The 10 high passengers are senior academic staff; the 85 mid 
     passengers are doctoral students/junior staff and graduate students; 
     and the 20 low berths are made available at half standard rates to 
     other students and staff of the University of Sylea. 
     
     **********************************************************************
     Universal Ship Profile
     Research Cruiser "Imperial Hope"
     Converted TL11 Medium Merchant
     
     Tonnage 2000t  Volume 1855.6   Cost in MCr 268.3
     Crew 20        Passengers 10 High, 85 Medium, 20 Low
     Cargo 500t     Controls: TL11 Standard Civilian    TL11
     Size Rating 9      Jump-1
     Fire control rating 0  1G Maneuver (4G Heplar drive - 207t per 20hrs)
                1.5 Power plant rating
                420 Fuel (Scoop/Refine)
                A10 P4 J4 Sensor rating (Small military-11)
                30 Armour   25 Structure
     Notes: 
     Only 100t cargo capacity if fuel bladders full
     Heplar drive is for auxiliary/emergency, not routine use. 
     
     
     **********************************************************************
     
     THE IMPERIAL HOPE: A GRADUATE SCHOOL OF THE UNIVERSITY OF SYLEA
     
     The University of Sylea's Faculty of Arts offers two-year scholarships 
     for outstanding social sciences students aboard the "Imperial Hope", a 
     converted 2,000t merchant which serves as a travelling graduate 
     school. 
     
     The "Imperial Hope" is a surplus 2,000t streamlined merchant, 
     converted to a social science research school. The "Hope" will usually 
     be encountered in orbit around one of the Sylean or nearby worlds, and 
     its students and staff will be engaged in various research and 
     coursework activities, both on board and on the mainworld. 
     
     The "Hope" only has jump-1 capability and so rarely leaves the Sylean 
     Main. The ship generally tours Core sector for eleven months each 
     year, returning to Sylea for one month of overhaul, refit and staff 
     rotation. The ship's itinerary is determined (within reason!) by the 
     specific research being undertaken by the students and staff. Insystem 
     time ranges from a few hours (refuelling only if there is nothing of 
     academic interest in the system) to a maximum of about four weeks. 
     
     Each graduate student receives a two-year berth aboard the "Hope", 
     which entitles them to a double-occupancy middle passage, full life 
     support, and access to onboard teaching, library and research 
     resources. In addition to their studies, students learn the basics of 
     operating a starship by assisting in various duties (roll 5+ on 1D for 
     each of Ship's Boat-1, Engineering-1, Steward-1). 
     
     At the end of their time aboard, the students receive a Masters degree 
     from the University of Sylea. Those completing the course with honours 
     are eligible to continue aboard for a further two years as junior 
     academic staff and researching to receive their doctorate. 
     
     Academic staff are organised into three schools: Politics, Economics 
     and Sociology. Some of the most outstanding social scientists of the 
     Imperium have spent time as academic staff aboard the "Imperial Hope". 
     Staff members sign aboard for up to four years, after which time they 
     exchange with other staff from universities all over the Imperium. 
     Staff positions aboard the "Hope" are highly prestigious, and confer a 
     temporary +1 SOC (to a maximum of A, and only while a member of 
     staff). 
     
     The shipboard crew of the "Hope" are a collection of retired Scout, 
     Navy and Merchant personnel. However, it is surprisingly easy to find 
     a position aboard, as some crewmembers quickly tire of the academic 
     staff and their "caramel sauce" students ("Why caramel sauce? Think of 
     something rich and very thick..."). Students and junior crewmembers 
     take considerable pleasure in baiting each other, generally in good 
     humour. 
     
     The "Hope" is outfitted with excellent resources, including an 
     extensive holocrystal library. While insystem, the library is updated 
     hourly via data link to local library resources. 
     
     Adventure hooks: 
     1. PCs may be graduate students aboard the ship. 
     2. PCs may be academic staff aboard the "Imperial Hope" (required: 
     Int, Edu or Soc A+ plus a doctorate in one of the social sciences)
     3. PCs may be members of the permanent shipboard crew of the "Imperial 
     Hope"; the "Hope" also signs crewmembers aboard for temporary working 
     passage. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 08:48:16 EST
From: galliand@juno.com (Scott M Galliand)
Subject: Message for Commander X

I'm sorry to post this here.  I know its wrong, but I haven't been able
to reply to Commander X  to a post he sent me requesting use of some of
my QSDS forms.  

For Cmdr. X and anyone else, I have no problem if you use the forms on my
web page for posting.  It would be nice to receive credit for them, but
that's not required.  Just enjoy.

The address again are:

Blank Career Template:
http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/traveller/forms/CareerDescription.html

QSDS Worksheet:
http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/traveller/forms/qsdsworksheet.html

and, last but not least, the QSDS form:
http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/traveller/forms/qsdsform.html

Thanks.
Scott M. Galliand
************************************************
E-mail: galliand@juno.com
WWW:  http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:53:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Imperial Press Release: XTech Industries

Dateline 006-0001

XTech Industries Sends Letter of Intent to Imperium Regarding New Ship 
Design.

Early this morning, the egnimatic CEO of XTech Industries, Commander X, sent 
his official "Letter of Intent" to His Imperial Magesty.  The letter states 
that XTech, a newly founded, privately owned, shipbuilding and electronics 
firm, intends to build a long range exploration and recontact vessel for the 
IISS.  Part of the LoI is as follows:

"Your Imperial Magesty,
I Commander X, your loyal servent and citizen, do hereby state my intent to 
accept his magesty's challange.  It would be my honor, and my duty, as a 
buisnessman of the Imperium to accept your magesty's request for a Long 
Range Survey and Recontact Vessel.  I am currently in the "phase one" step 
with my engineers, that being the concept and design phase...."

The rest of the message was censored due to the request of Commander X, as 
it involves corporate secrets.  The Commander says he is aware of others 
wanting to gain the Emperor's favor, and is careful to avoid leaks.

Quote from the Commander: "The guantlet has been cast, may the best design 
achieve his magesty's wishes!"

This concludes this Press Release from XTech Industries Corporation.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:59:14 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: NAS Systems

On 3 Jan 1997, Jeff Kazmierski wrote:

> 	
> >Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 21:03:58 -0800
> >From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
> >Subject: Re: Surveillance and Intelligence Sensor Suites
> >
> >Jeff Kazmierski wrote:
> >> 
> >> All Surveillance suites include the following equipment:
> >>
> >>         1xNeural Activity Sensor (TL-13+)
> >
> >Why this item? Even at TL20 (that's right, _twenty_), a NAS has a short
> >range of 50km, making it effectively useless beyond far orbit. And at
> >far orbit distances, any spook ship sticks out like a sore thumb every
> >time it occults the background star field.
> >
> I agree.  NAS units below TL-20 are completely worthless.  I only included
> them in the list because they're part of the Exploration/Survey sensor
> suites in Starships.  Don't include them, if you don't want to (I'll
> probably ignore them too); the power, volume, mass and price are all
> negligible.
> 
I often included these on MT ship designs as part of the anti-hijack
package.

Anyone else think that a computer with the crew's patterns recorded can
tell crew from invader?

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:00:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Newbie

On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Paul Clay wrote:

> Is there anyone running a game out there?  I played under the original
> rules, even tried GMing a little and always thought Traveller was under
> rated by the gaming public.  When I signed up on this list a few days ago I
> didn't realize the amount of fanaticism there was for this game.  Let me
> know if I can join in and play, thanks.  Paul

You might want to tell folks what area you are in, how far you are capable
of travelling, etc.  

I know there are play-by-email games out there too, but most of us are
playing "live".

Pete 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 15:09:39 +0100
From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Subject: Form FF&S to T4

Hi,

Does anyone have rules for converting ships made under FF&S to the
T4 shipprofile.

Also, does anybody have a list of changes in assumptions made when
QSDS wasmade on the basis of FF&S 

thanks
- -- 
Tommy Grav 
Email: tommyg@ifi.uio.no
WWW-Page: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html
"Sooner or later the worst set of circumstances are bound to occur."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:11:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Planet X--The Commander's Web Site

Quoting from Suz:

>Keep an eye on Commander X's web site:

>http://www.magicnet.net/~opp-mag/

>His site will soon be home to the #traveller home page, and he plans
>to include a list of all IRC games currently in process (two running
>and one about to start) and to post any games forming and who to
>contact about joining those games.

>Thank you, Commander X, for your work in supporting #traveller.

>Suz

Thanx for the plug Suz! :)

Now to add to it.

Planet X is currently undergoing a major facelift this year, and hopefuly 
will be in some form of compleation by the Middle of this month.  The Beta 
test (current) has proven to be a compleat success and the time for a full 
1.0 version is evident.

New features will include.
Compleatly new design interface, the 3 "tech levels" of the beta will be 
fusied into a consolidated site.  There will be graphics, but ALT tags and 
text links will be included for all text viewers (A courtesty to Joe Walsh, 
and other shell users!  :) )

The VRML site will be upgraded to VRML2.0 I understand that Netscape's 
Live3D has a VRML2.0 upgrade available, your old VRML1.0  browser will NOT 
be able to see it. So get ready for the future!  Upgrade Today! :)  The VRML 
site will be accessable via link from the main page interface.

As Suz stated eariler, I will have an #traveller IRC page, i will try to 
make the FAQ as complete as posible.

Also a Newbie Zone will be available for people new to the game to get info, 
and hopefuly, encourage them to become loyal travellerites!  Yes, Commander 
is for "Grass Roots" encouragement.

As always my friends....
Keep the Flame!
Commander X out.....<TRANSMISSION ENDS> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:53:08 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Grrrr

Can anyone who has tried to send me eMail this weekend please re-send it.
My ISP had a major hardware failure and I have lost all mail from Friday
3-4PM (CST).

Also, would someone please tell me where I can get the archived digests that
I have missed.

Thanks, and sorry to interrupt the normal conversation. :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 97 08:58:36 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Ship Accomodations

- ----------------------------------------------------------------
This message is a repost of one sent on Sun Jan 05 at 03:09:00  by 
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch). 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------

Jeff,

I agree with you more room should be made for accommodations.  

OTOH, it's quite possible that people will have a more Japanese attitude
toward their sleeping spaces a few thousand years from now. If that's true,
and we have gravity control, then even a half ton will be plenty for the
sleeping compartment...walk into a stand-up "closet", turn on zero-g, and
go to sleep.  <g> You might have your storage in the same space, or down in
the hole.  The "facilities" would be down the corridor.  Most living space
would be in commons areas.

Still, I tend to design ships with more conventual quarters. <g>

>  ...the typical cabin on a cruise ship...is 150-200 square feet
>  floor space, including the 'fresher (shower, sink, toilet).

Those would be the equivalent of Large Staterooms:  4m x 4m, about 13ft x
13ft.  That's plenty of space for 2 or 3 people.  On ships (star or
otherwise), I expect the cabins to be somewhat smaller than that. 
Passengers and Crew will spend most of their time outside their rooms in
commons or work areas.

I have 4 passenger levels:

1st Class - luxury accommodations, 6 to 8 tons of space, 1/2ton
            baggage.

2nd Class - standard accommodations, 4 to 6 tons of space, 1/4ton
            baggage.
            
3rd Class - modest accommodations, 2 to 4 tons of space, 1/8ton
            baggage.
            
4th Class - cold passage, 1 ton of space, 1/8ton of baggage.            

I've designed standard deckplans for several types of quarters:

SINGLE CABIN - 2.5x3m (1.875dt), is very workable for a single 2nd class
passenger or junior Officer.  The room is cramped, but the resident would
spend less time there than at work stations or in commons areas.  It
includes a fold down twin bed on one wall.  On the wall at the foot of the
bed is a wall terminal for entertainment and/or work.  When the bed is up,
a table can be folded down just below the terminal, exposing a data entry
area.  There is a folding chair in the room.  The room has a small
closet/storage space (ship rules on lockability).  There is also room for a
fold down (or recessed) mini sink and toilet.  A communal Fresher is down
the corridor.

SMALL STATEROOM - 3x3m (2.25dt), is a slightly larger version of the Cabin.
 A double bed that folds out from a small sofa makes this the cabin of
choice for 1st class passengers on smaller ships, 2nd class frugal couples
on larger ships, or ship's Officers.

PAIRED CABINS - 6x3m (4.5dt, 2.25/cabin) A pair of Cabins share a small
Fresher located between them.  The accommodations of each cabin are similar
to the Single Cabin.  This arrangement is very acceptable for higher ranked
crew quarters, or for 2nd or 3rd class passengers.

PRIVATE BUNKS - 2x2.5m (1.25dt) Smaller version of the Single Cabin, with a
chest (rather than a closet) for storage.  These rooms are for 3rd class
passengers and crew.

LARGE STATEROOM - 6x3 (4.5dt) These suites include a fully
functional private fresher.  They feature a queen sized bed, a pair of
comfortable chairs, entertainment and work terminal, a dressing table and
closet space.  These luxury suites are reserved for 1st class passengers
and high ranking Officers.

Most of the space is in the commons areas.  You need to think about such
things as Galleys, Wardrooms, Dining Halls, Lounges, Game Rooms,
Gym/workout Rooms, Conference Rooms, Sickbays, etc, etc, etc!

I've started to work on all of this, but only slowly.  I've even got *some*
of the rooms on disk as VISIO stencils. <g>

Eris




- -----------------------------------------------
 -- End of reposted message
- -----------------------------------------------

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #815
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 7 1997      Volume 1996 : Number 816



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Reformation Coalition
Re: Mikesh starport and Vargr technology
Re: Mikesh starport and Vargr technology
Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 
Re: Where are the Aslan?
Re: Where are the Aslan?
A Discrepancy?
Re: What Milieus are to be produced?
Black  box recorders
Re: Problems with Starship Luxury Liner
Re: [T96#813] Gas Mix
Starship's
News from Imperium Games
Re: Where are the Aslan?
Re: News from Imperium Games
Re: Form FF&S to T4
Re: Mikesh starport and Vargr technology
Re: Where are the Aslan?
Re: News from Imperium Games
New Imperium Games Website
Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 
Re: Starship's
Traveller on IRC
(no subject)
Terran vs. Imperial Calendar

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:35:33 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Reformation Coalition

Attention, Attention, Attention!

Do you enjoy designing Starships?  Are NPC's more to your liking?  No, you
say, I prefer detailing worlds and people groups.  My specialty is graphics.
I prefer putting information into HTML format.

We want you!

The Reformation Coalition BARD Library is looking for Volunteers from within
the Reformation Coalition to assist in compiling data and presenting it in
the BARD system.  If you said, "Hey, that's me" to any of the comments
above, then we can use your help.  The Reformation Coalition is suffering
right now and we need a consolidated place for all information to be stored,
that is what BARD is for.  Please join the fight, and help us keep the RC alive.


Seriously, since IG has decided to put off the Reformation Coalition setting
till much later, it is up to us, it's fans to keep it alive.  I have already
started doing this and a small group of us are working to try to develop new
information and such for the RC.  If you enjoy the RC setting please let me
know, I am sure there is something that you can do to help, if you are
willing.  Thank you for your support.  (This plea is for the RC only
currently, no Pocket Empires, No Wilds, and No Regency support currently.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:16:32 -0500
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Mikesh starport and Vargr technology

Hans Rancke wrote:
> First of all, that is not quite correct. There is a rule somewhere that
worlds
> with the requisite tech level can build ships of up to 5000 T displacement
> even without B or A starports.

Well it's not in Trillion Credit Squadron which you had just agreed is our
reference for ship building and maintenance.

Andrew etc. wrote:
> High Guard (pp 20):
>   "....A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the
borders
>    of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on
its
>    planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present."

Nice use of a reference, much better than just saying this is what we are
told ;^)  OK, I go ahead and concede Mikesh could have been building
starships.  And from now on I assume that Trillion Credit Squadron in not a
valid reference.

Andrew etc. also wrote:
> However if you follow the rules set out in Striker Book 2 pp38-39, you
> get Mikesh having a GNP of MCr1,200,000,000. Taking military spending
> as 3% of GNP you get a budget of MCr36,000,000. Now 30% of this goes
> to the Imperium and of the rest 60% goes to the navy; giving a naval
> budget of MCr15,120,000 (thats allows a standing navy of 151 TCS!!!)
> Even if they've only built 5,000T ships, thats still going to take some
> wadding through!

OK, lets use Striker. If we have Industrialized TL-13 (just for the sake of
argument) Vargr world with a population of 60 billion, this gives us a GDP of
1,512TCr (of course we don't know is such a world exists or not since we do
not have data for the Provence Sector, but such a world could exist).  Now if
we assume that military spending is 8%, not unreasonable considering the
tension between Vargr states, we get a military budget of 120.96TCr.  Take
40% for the Army, Multiply by 10 to get standing fleet size, and leaving 30%
behind for home defense would give us and invasion force of 508.032TCr.  So,
would this be a force large enough to bring Mikesh under Vargr control?

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:16:32 -0500
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Mikesh starport and Vargr technology

Hans Rancke wrote:
> First of all, that is not quite correct. There is a rule somewhere that
worlds
> with the requisite tech level can build ships of up to 5000 T displacement
> even without B or A starports.

Well it's not in Trillion Credit Squadron which you had just agreed is our
reference for ship building and maintenance.

Andrew etc. wrote:
> High Guard (pp 20):
>   "....A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the
borders
>    of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on
its
>    planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present."

Nice use of a reference, much better than just saying this is what we are
told ;^)  OK, I go ahead and concede Mikesh could have been building
starships.  And from now on I assume that Trillion Credit Squadron in not a
valid reference.

Andrew etc. also wrote:
> However if you follow the rules set out in Striker Book 2 pp38-39, you
> get Mikesh having a GNP of MCr1,200,000,000. Taking military spending
> as 3% of GNP you get a budget of MCr36,000,000. Now 30% of this goes
> to the Imperium and of the rest 60% goes to the navy; giving a naval
> budget of MCr15,120,000 (thats allows a standing navy of 151 TCS!!!)
> Even if they've only built 5,000T ships, thats still going to take some
> wadding through!

OK, lets use Striker. If we have Industrialized TL-13 (just for the sake of
argument) Vargr world with a population of 60 billion, this gives us a GDP of
1,512TCr (of course we don't know is such a world exists or not since we do
not have data for the Provence Sector, but such a world could exist).  Now if
we assume that military spending is 8%, not unreasonable considering the
tension between Vargr states, we get a military budget of 120.96TCr.  Take
40% for the Army, Multiply by 10 to get standing fleet size, and leaving 30%
behind for home defense would give us and invasion force of 508.032TCr.  So,
would this be a force large enough to bring Mikesh under Vargr control?

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 08:23:28 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 

At 10:43 PM 1/5/97 -0500, you wrote:

>I checked out Starships in my local gaming store. Right now I'm getting
>more and more skeptical about IG. How's Central Supply Catalogue and
>Aliens? I haven't gotten the chance to check them out yet. BTW was there
>any explanation about why T4 stops at TL12?

CSC is great, haven't gotten into Aliens yet, as I also picked up the new #G
at the same time. (Gearheads unite!)

T4 stops at TL12 since that is the tech level the Imperium had when it was
declared.  Later Milleu Books will include higher TL equipment.  IMHO, TL12
is a great enviroment to game with, since things are still vaguely familar.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 97 18:12 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Where are the Aslan?

In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970103154046.9584A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

<< > Anybody know when IG plans to come up with an Alien supplement that 
details
> the Aslans?

Last I heard, they would be detailed during the Milieu 200 period (Aslan 
Border Wars).  As to when they'll have Milieu 200 out, I have heard no 
projected date. >>

And when you do hear a date, add 3-4 months to it...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 12:42:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Ryan Dooley <ryan@coe.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Where are the Aslan?

> Last I heard, they would be detailed during the Milieu 200 period (Aslan 
> Border Wars).  As to when they'll have Milieu 200 out, I have heard no 
> projected date. >>
> 
> And when you do hear a date, add 3-4 months to it...
>

Time to break out the old MT and CT books.... 

- --ryan 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:40:03 -0500
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: A Discrepancy?

Ok, until I got onto the TML & raided everyone's online archives, my access
to Trav info has been rather limited. With all the talk about the Scout
Service interdicting on behalf of low TL worlds & trading in general w low TL
worlds, I began to wonder about Sorel. It's a TL1 world right next door to
Glisten (TL15). My old Spinward Marches supplement does not give Sorel an A
or R rating. Why not? I would think that this would be a prime example for
interdiction. Of course this may have already been explained here or in JTAS,
I don't know. If it has been explained away already, would someone please fwd
that explanation to me? If it hasn't, let's discuss.

Thanks!
\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 13:01:20 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: What Milieus are to be produced?

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 

> 
> CSC is great, haven't gotten into Aliens yet, as I also picked up the new #G
> at the same time. (Gearheads unite!)

Or at least get into mesh . . . :)

> 
> T4 stops at TL12 since that is the tech level the Imperium had when it was
> declared.  Later Milleu Books will include higher TL equipment.  IMHO, TL12
> is a great enviroment to game with, since things are still vaguely familar.

I gotta agree with this. Tech 12 gives just the right balance of
familiar -- gauss projectile and laser small arms for the masses with
high-energy military weapons,  ***battledress*** and Your Friend, the
Meson Artillery.

- --Rich
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 00:21:07 -0800
From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
Subject: Black  box recorders

If the subject has perchance been done to death in the past, then I
apoligize for resurrecting it; but.... would spacecraft have black box 
recorders, much in the same way as jumbo jets do?

It certainly seems possible. You could place a large chunk of
solid-state memory hooked up to the ship's computer (where it would suck
in, say, the last 72 hours' worth of communications, sensor info, data
on the ship's systems, etc.), then give it its own gravitics system,
internal battery, and armor it to hell & back -- say with a USP of 10.
If whatever destroys the ship has less damage left over than the AR of
the black box, then it would stand a good chance of surviving.

What would be the game mechanics of such a device (volume, cost, etc.)?
Comments, anybody?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 97 17:43:34 -0500
From: lewis@slipher.chara.gsu.edu.chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
Subject: Re: Problems with Starship Luxury Liner

Hi,

Phil McGregor wrote some comments on the Luxury Liner in Starships.  As
the guy who wrote it up I figured I'd respond.  

>514 High Passage Cabins - 100 of which are stated to be double size = 614
>effective HP Cabins, @ 4 tons per cabin and 1 ton dedicated cargo space (it
>says this comes as part of the ticket price - check it out!) = 3070 tons.

I have to admit I didn't know about baggage requirments for passengers
and crew. If you want to fix this remove 114 of the High Passengers and
use that as cargo room. 

>185 Crew Cabins assuming single occupancy of a Small Stateroom @ 2 tons
>each = 370 tons.

I am a much harsher person than Phil, becuase only the Captain and
First Officer are in singles. The rest of the command staff is doubled
up, and the crew is triple bunked.  

>699 total crew and passengers, requiring a 5 ton "Rescue Ball" (read the
>description on Page #6 - its *required*) for every four = 699/4 = 175
>(approx.) = 175 x 5 tons (no allowance for launching mechanisms) = 875 tons

Don Perrin never told me that ships needed these. Do any of the ships
in the book have these? I don't recall seeing any.  Also I think they
are pretty dopey, and the chance of them being used pretty slim.

>Add 2000 tons for Jump Fuel (J2), ...

Jump fuel is 10% of ship volume multiplied by Jump Number, so the Liner
requires 20% of 5000 tons or only 1000 tons of fuel.  At least that's
how I recall the computation.

>Total = 6555 displacement tons ... all in a 500 displacement ton hull!
Its a 5000 ton hull. From your Jump fuel calculation I assume you know
this, but just pointing out your own typos.

>And note that the idea of a Luxury class passenger sitting in a notionally
>4 (or even 8) displacement ton cabin - is laughable (its 3 x 6 meters, and
>that doesn't allow for the 1 ton supposedly allocated to general passenger
>spaces rather than cabin space - leaving that out, its 3 x 4.5 meters)!

That's why the design of the ship includes a 9000m^3 Ballroom. (Its
about 2/3 of the size of the Ballroom of the Hilton in Atlanta. I
figured that out during the Crow II presentation at DragonCon Last Year)
The ship also has a 500m^3 casino and a 500m^3 sports and rec center.  

We could argue back and forth about how much space high passengers
really want, but this ship has more space and accomadations than most other ships.  

I never saw plans for the King Richard by FASA, but I read that it too
was 5000 tons, Can anyone give details on numbers of people it carried
or anything else useful?

I realize some of the above details aren't in the Starship books. I
sent the complete design sheet to Don, but he didn't put any of the
details into the write up.  I did write up the flavor piece, but I
figured Don would change it around and include some of the details from
the design sheet.  I guess I figured wrong, well live and learn.  

I don't really like the new USP, I much prefer the FFS design listings
from TNE, it had much more detail to the listing.  


Lewis Roberts
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Q:How does an elephant get out of a cherry tree?
A:He sits on a leaf and waits until fall.        

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 97 17:41:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T96#813] Gas Mix

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) hath scriven...

T::>I (and many others) expect them to look more like a cabin on a ship.
 ::>There will be lots of storage space, but there will be "permanent" beds
 ::>and a desk/table etc. Crews likely have bad things to say about most
 ::>inexperienced passengers and the way they leave things lying around the
 ::>cabin.

T::>They also snicker a lot when "newbies" fail to stow things before
 ::>watching landings/takeoffs in the "lounge" and then come back to a
 ::>cabin that looks like a tornado has been thru it. :-)

 Would this necessarily happen in a ship with artificial
 gravity?  Wouldn't it and inertial comp prevent this kind of
 thing from happening, so that a passenger who _doesn't_ go to
 the lounge might not know when the ship takes off, and only
 realizes that is has when that unmistakable sensation of jump
 entry is felt?

T::>I had a (*stupid*) roommate who filled a small trashbag (10 liters?)
 ::>with oxygen and acetylene then set it off in the backyard. He didn't
 ::>*quite* blow out the windows....

 I remember a "Science Magic Show" at a college I attended for a
 while.  A regular party balloon filled with propane and air in
 the proper ratio didn't blow out the windows, even in the
 first-floor lounge it was being done in (floor-to-ceiling plate
 glass) - but the people on the tenth floor of the building (a
 high-rise dorm) both heard and felt it.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Press any key to continue or any other key to quit

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:59:59 -0500
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Starship's

      Well after all the complaints about starships, how about doing our own?

      Would anyone care to donate some time and effort into such a project?

      What we would need are some designers, and most especially some people
who can do some artwork and deckplans (I'll settle for two out of three). All
submissions will be posted on a web page if people are willing (the other
possibility is sending the info in for publication if that's what the
participants want also).

      Any takers?

      Bryan Borich

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:40:56 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: News from Imperium Games

Imperium Games News                                        January 6, 1997


Well, it's been a while since I've done one of these! :)  I just got off 
the phone with Courtney, who called to tell me about some great things that 
will be happening soon.  He's heard our constructive criticism, and this 
is an advanced peek at some of the things that IG will be doing to make our 
experience with T4 the best.  Here are some of the things planned for 
the next couple of weeks:


IG Web Site
===========

Within the next 10 days or so, the IG web site will undergo a radical 
change.  There will be feedback areas for each product, as well as a 
forum for discussions.  Courtney plans to ask Marc Miller and the other 
T4 designers to hold forums there from time to time, so that we can 
discuss Traveller with the people making it happen.  And, the site will 
be updated frequently.  They want to make the site a fun and vital part 
of the Traveller experience.


Direct Orders
=============

Courtney wants to make up for the problems experienced by those of us who 
ordered directly from IG in the past.  Once the web site is updated, there 
will be a limited time offer posted that will allow direct orders to be 
placed at a 30% discount.  And, of course, all orders will be shipped in 
bubble mailers, and will arrive in a timely fashion.  Give direct 
ordering a try again - they've listened to our criticisms, and they've 
greatly improved the process.


Starships
=========

The web site will soon feature an area where one can download the items 
that are missing from the _Starships_ book - the things we thought  
should have been there, or should have been done differently.


Look for these changes in the next 10 days or so . . .


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 01:16:36 -0800
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Where are the Aslan?

Ryan Dooley wrote:
> 
> > Last I heard, they would be detailed during the Milieu 200 period (Aslan
> > Border Wars).  As to when they'll have Milieu 200 out, I have heard no
> > projected date. >>
> >
> > And when you do hear a date, add 3-4 months to it...
> >
> 
> Time to break out the old MT and CT books....
> 
> --ryanGot that right,sadly.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 20:40:37 -0600
From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Subject: Re: News from Imperium Games

Joseph E. Walsh <ransom@conne4ct.iconnect.net> wrote:
>
> Starships
> =========
> 
> The web site will soon feature an area where one can download the items 
> that are missing from the _Starships_ book - the things we thought  
> should have been there, or should have been done differently.

Will this include corrections for the many errors present in 
_Starships_?

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@NASCRAG.ORG

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 21:47:10 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Form FF&S to T4

Tommy Grav wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> Does anyone have rules for converting ships made under FF&S to the
> T4 shipprofile.
>=20
> Also, does anybody have a list of changes in assumptions made when
> QSDS was=A0made on the basis of FF&S

You only need to have the conversion chart from the last page of Starship=
s
(I am the master of converting from game system to game system, just for =
a laugh I=20
converted DC Heroes stats for Superman to T4 Starship Combat, wow can he =
kick ass)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 21:53:37 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Mikesh starport and Vargr technology

All this talk of TCS and starship capability has got the wheels in my head turning...
expect a realistic (ie fits in with real world numbers) eceonomic system soon, it is turning 
out to be a little more difficult than I thought.
BUT, it takes into account trade classifications, population, government type, law level, tech 
level and lastly, starport
I hope this wets your appetite, cause it has me drooling!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 21:56:07 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Where are the Aslan?

Andrew Boulton wrote:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970103154046.9584A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>
> 
> << > Anybody know when IG plans to come up with an Alien supplement that
> details
> > the Aslans?
> 
> Last I heard, they would be detailed during the Milieu 200 period (Aslan
> Border Wars).  As to when they'll have Milieu 200 out, I have heard no
> projected date. >>
> 
> And when you do hear a date, add 3-4 months to it...


On what basis are you so damn optimistic?
I remember that GDW stood for Games Distributed Whenever

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:23:56 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: News from Imperium Games

>is an advanced peek at some of the things that IG will be doing to make our 
>experience with T4 the best.  Here are some of the things planned for 
>the next couple of weeks:

Well, congratulations to Courtney!  With all the controversy recently,
around the JTAS shipping charges, and seemingly mediocore\overpriced I was
really getting down on T4, at a time when it needs to garner as much support
as possible (before the summer, when TSR introduces it's new SF game, Alternity)

>T4 designers to hold forums there from time to time, so that we can 
>discuss Traveller with the people making it happen.  And, the site will 
>be updated frequently.  They want to make the site a fun and vital part 
>of the Traveller experience.

This all sounds great!  I'd love to have the chance to chat with Marc and
the other designers to directly voice our opinons on the products that are
being produced, and what we can do to improve it.

>bubble mailers, and will arrive in a timely fashion.  Give direct 
>ordering a try again - they've listened to our criticisms, and they've 
>greatly improved the process.

Well, I hope so.  My UN-FLGS (Yes! That's UNFRIENDLY local game store)
doesn't stock anything almost besides way out of date stuff, and then WW,
TSR, SJG, Star Wars.  So, the only way for me to get my paws on T4 products
is to win one of these monthly contests, or order direct.

>The web site will soon feature an area where one can download the items 
>that are missing from the _Starships_ book - the things we thought  
>should have been there, or should have been done differently.

That definitely does sound good.  But what exactly does it mean?  Ae we
going to see better deckplans, or what?  Can you be more specific?

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 19:45:54 -0800
From: David Bullock <dbullock@cris.com>
Subject: New Imperium Games Website

The new Imperium Games website will be under active construction over the
next week.  The existing web site (www.imperiumgames.com) will continue to
be available, until the new site is usable.

"Something wicked this way comes..."

Dave Bullock

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:38:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Led Mirage <lmirage@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 

On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Andrew Vallance wrote:

> You have a large established base of players, many now in their 30's
> with far higher disposable incomes than your average newbie. This
> group generally has a good working knowledge of the background, and

Well, who in this established base doesn't have starships and equipments
that can readily be plug into play? There is no good reason why the
backgroud books need be released 2-3 months after the basic rulebook.
Even after a book on *minor* alien races!

> loyalty of the established player base (and the really cynical part of me
> say's use them as a massive playtest). Then and only then, do you
> aim to expand the player base. *Therefore* what gets released first
> 1:   Basic rules
> 2:   Equipment and advanced rules
> Only after these things do you start producing things such as
> background materials and adventures.

Again, there is no good reason why they can't publish the background
simulteneously or even *soon* (not months later) after the rulebook is out
on the street.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:15:10 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Starship's

>      Well after all the complaints about starships, how about doing our own?
>
>      Would anyone care to donate some time and effort into such a project?

Sounds good to me.  I'd even be able to offer my web space (once my provider
gets FTP access working again :( ).

>      What we would need are some designers, and most especially some people
>who can do some artwork and deckplans (I'll settle for two out of three). All
>submissions will be posted on a web page if people are willing (the other
>possibility is sending the info in for publication if that's what the
>participants want also).

Great!  I'd be willing to help in some Starship design, and coding that
needs ot be done (HTMl that is!), as well as, like I said the HTML design.
If we could get this done well, with the inclusion of SSDS (with designer
permission) it could work out quite well.  

Anyone else out there want in?  I'll start up a contact list.

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:09:18 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller on IRC

Greetings!

Thursday night is Traveller night!  This week Allen Shock will be 
giving us a walk-through of the SSDS system.  We will build a ship 
together and Allen will help us through any errata we encounter, to 
the best of his ability.  Thank you, Allen, for volunteering for 
this!!!

The Thursday night session will begin at 8pm EST (7pm CST, 6pm MST, 
5pm PST, too blanking late London time <g>).

We're on Undernet, stlouis.mo.us.undernet.org, ports 6660-6669.  As
always, if you need help trying to get on, have any questions or
comments, please email me. 

Suz

suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 00:15:37 -0600
From: WED <WED@prodigy.net>
Subject: (no subject)

unsubscribe Traveller Mailing List: Bill Dittrich

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 01:13:45 -0600
From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Subject: Terran vs. Imperial Calendar

I posted a version of this message a few days ago, but never saw it
come through the list. My apologies if I'm repeating myself.


Joseph E. Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> wrote:
>
> Day 031 is January 31st, so don't wait!

Huh?

Traveller Alien Module 6, Solomani (GDW, 1986) gives a few
correspondences between Imperial and Terran dates.

001-   0   19 Jan 4521
001-1111   16 Apr 5631
111--2537   1 Feb 1986

I've never calculated 001 for certain 'historical' years. Since a
Terran year is 365.25 days (in Traveller) and an Imperium year is
365 days there's a certain amount of drift between the systems. We 
don't know if the Rule of Man uses a 365.25 day year, or calculates 
leap days as we do now. (We don't add a leap day to certain century 
years, etc.)

It imagine Ziru Sirka uses a Vlandian calendar, and the Rule of Man
uses a Terran calendar. During the Long Night, worlds probably use a
Terran calendar, local calendar, or possibly a Vlandian calendar (if
they feel really nostalgic). It also seems to me that the Sylean
Federation uses a Terran-based calendar. Why else would Cleon pick a
calendar with 365 days? Why not 350 days? 500? 700? 1000?

Plenty of headaches exist transitioning from year 649 SF to Year 0
without radically changing the number of days in a year, too. Imagine
how many contracts exist before Year 0 which are enforceable through
655 SF or later. Legal documents probably use both the old Sylean
Federation date and year, in addition to the new Imperial day and
year, during Year 0 and other early years of the Third Imperium. Some
documents might even have a Vlandian date, Terran date, Sylean
Federation date, and Imperium date to commemerate Year 0 and
celebrate past Empires.

I imagine that the Sylean Federation uses a Terran calendar and
goofs on keeping track of leap days. By the time the Solomani contact
occurs, correcting the discrepancy would cause more headaches than
it's worth.

BTW, here's January 4521:

      Jan 4521
 S  M Tu  W Th  F  S
          1  2  3  4
 5  6  7  8  9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31

If SunOS got it right, 001-   0 is a Sunday!

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@NASCRAG.ORG

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #816
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 7 1997      Volume 1996 : Number 817



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Stars, colours and so on
Starship V1 design spreadsheet available.
King Richard
Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #815
Re: Stars, colours and so on
Re: Stars, colours and so on
Re: Vargr invasion of Corridor (long)
Re: Hulls
Sunbane sectors
Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 
Traveller support on AOL
Re: Mikesh and the Vargr
Plasmas - adn other newbie's question (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 07 Jan 97 18:19:34 +1100
From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Subject: Stars, colours and so on

     Does anybody out there know what a type M0V star might look like? I am 
     generating a star system for a particular planet (no hints but it 
     might just be located at hex 0802 of the T4 Core sector); I've spent 
     half an hour checking my internet terminal but all I can get is a load 
     of astrophysical crap that is of no possible interest to anybody 
     (well, except for the astrophysicists that post such stuff). 
     
     I seem to remember that stars go in this sequence: 
     O B A F G K M  (various mnemonics, mostly obscene) 
     
     and I think they range from hottest (type O) down to coolest (type M). 
     So would I be correct in assuming that a type MOV might be a dim, 
     reddish looking thingy? And are M0V stars old, young, or no age in 
     particular? 
     
     ALSO: a planet would have to be very close to such a star in order to 
     be in the habitable zone; Grand Survey reckons that the planet should 
     be in the closest orbit, 0.2AU distance. Would this have adverse 
     effects eg from solar flares, UV radiation, tidal effects and the 
     like, or is an M0V just too damn boring for anything of the sort? 
     
     PS James Dempsey and David Hyphen, you should not be reading this 
     message ;]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 10:52:05 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Starship V1 design spreadsheet available.

        Starship V1 design spreadsheet is now available.


        What is it?

        A zipped packet that contains STARS-V1.XLS, SS-WEAP.XLS and
        STARSHIP.TXT files.


        What they can do?

        STARS-V1.XLS is T4 starship design spreadsheet which contains
        all needed FFS tables. Needed starship components are selected
        from pull-down menus, and the final ship data is shown in
        "Brilliant Lances", "Battle Rider" and "T4 USP" formats.
        The ship data can be transferred into text file simply by
        cut-and-paste.

        SS-WEAP.XLS is starship weapon design spreadsheet which contains
        all needed FFS tables. It can be used to design lasers, particle
        accelerators and meson guns.  Weapon options and components are
        selected from pull-down menus, and the final weapon data is
        shown in "Brilliant Lances", "Battle Rider" and T4 formats. 
        The weapon data can be copied into STARS-V1.XLS weapon table.

        STARSHIP.TXT is a short readme-file.


        What are the limits?

        When the hull displacement is over 100000000 DT, the Excel will
        become more difficult to read when the values are displayed as
        as 1E+08. While it is still possible to design ships that are
        larger than sun, the jump ships are limited by the increasing
        surface area requirements.
        

        Where it can be found?

        The packet can be directly downloaded from my web page at:

        http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen/Traveller/Stars-v1.zip


        Why it was made?

        Originally I was trying to make a QSDS starship hull designer,
        but the project spontaneously expanded. I felt that QSDS was too
        limited, and so I expanded the original spreadsheet to include
        more and more starship components.
        Since I put the first version on my web page, several persons
        have mailed me suggestions how to improve it, and the Stars-v1
        is now complete.


        Is it final version?

        No. Nothing is ever final.


        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 09:03:45 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: King Richard

Lewis asked for the stats of the King Richard.

Here are the details from the corner of the deck plan sheet and also
included in the passenger brochure:


RN - E421273 - 000000 - 00000 -  0  2200 MCr   5000 tons

Crew - 182
Staterooms - 188
Low Berths - 18
Shuttles - 2
Cargo - 220
Fuel - 1100
Passengers - 300
E.P. - 100
Agility - 1
2 model/7 computers on board


Interestingly the 1 sheet, double sided deck plans (1 inch = 15m) also find
space to include 6 examples of staterooms and their layouts in 15mm scale.

You may also be interested to know that passage on the KR *starts* at Cr50,
000 and the passenger brochure is quoted as saying that it has "never
sailed at less than 95% capacity".


HTH

tc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 00:58:51 -0800
From: reaver@customcpu.com (Smith, F.)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #815

I must preface this with the fact that this is my first post to the
list. 
So please correct me if I seem in bad form here. Now on the my point.

<snip>
>      Universal Ship Profile
>      Research Cruiser "Imperial Hope"
>      Converted TL11 Medium Merchant
> 
>      Tonnage 2000t  Volume 1855.6   Cost in MCr 268.3
>      Crew 20        Passengers 10 High, 85 Medium, 20 Low
>      Cargo 500t     Controls: TL11 Standard Civilian    TL11
>      Size Rating 9      Jump-1
>      Fire control rating 0  1G Maneuver (4G Heplar drive - 207t per 20hrs)
>                 1.5 Power plant rating
>                 420 Fuel (Scoop/Refine)
>                 A10 P4 J4 Sensor rating (Small military-11)
>                 30 Armour   25 Structure
<snip>

    I like your idea of the flying grad school however I noticed that it 
is equiped with fuel scoops. Does this imply that the ship itself is
going 
to skim gas giants for fuel? If so I feel that this may be dangerous to
to the crew and the passengers because of the inherently dangerous
nature
of the skimming procces and not to mention any corsaires that might be 
lurking in the above mentioned GG. The corsaires however are not a
serious
issue when you are only traveling around in well developed systems that
have
a decent deployment of system defence boats. I think that this problem
could 
be addressed by includeing an autonomous fuel skimming module. This may
slow
down the refueling procces however it is quite a bit safer than risking
the
entire ship just to refuel.

    I only make this point because I have seen roughly 6 vessels ranging
from
skimming modules to starships lost in a gas giant due to refuleing in
the four
years I have played traveller.


- ---
Benjamin W. Smith
reaver@customcpu.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 10:25:04 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Stars, colours and so on

Hi

I'm some newbie on this list (and on TNE Rpg). As I read the Extended System
design, I was very interested in Star classification and I've found some
very interesting information ine Encyclopedia

>     I seem to remember that stars go in this sequence: 
>     O B A F G K M  (various mnemonics, mostly obscene)  
>     and I think they range from hottest (type O) down to coolest (type M). 

I don't have the precise data in the mind but :

  Type  Color    Surface Temp   Specter Ray     
    0  Blue       35000 K       He *
    B  Blue                     H  * 
    A  Green      10000 K       H+ *
    F  Green                    
    G  Yellow      5000 K       Hydrocarbons
    K  Orange                   Heavy metals
    M  Red         2500 K       Metal Oxydes 

* = I'm not sure, I have to check it.

Ia, Ib, II   Supergiant Stars (rare because of their very short life span)
III, IV      Giant stars (called Red Giant)
V            Main sequence (called dwarf stars) (80% of known stars)
my classification also describe a type VI  (brown dwarfs), 
                            and a type VII (famous white dwarfs) 
Size type IV, V and VI are really close

Sun is G2V. M0V star is a small Red star. I think that the radius is smaller
than the sun's.
I could give you some relative radius array, function of Specteral type and
size, I'll check it up in my book

>     So would I be correct in assuming that a type MOV might be a dim, 
>     reddish looking thingy? And are M0V stars old, young, or no age in 
>     particular? 

This star might be old one, but as the color and size changes during the
star life, this star could be anything. I would be glad if someone have some
more precise informations about life cycle of stars.
     
>     ALSO: a planet would have to be very close to such a star in order to 
>     be in the habitable zone; Grand Survey reckons that the planet should 
>     be in the closest orbit, 0.2AU distance. Would this have adverse 
>     effects eg from solar flares, UV radiation, tidal effects and the 
>     like, or is an M0V just too damn boring for anything of the sort? 

I'll check if I've some information about that point, but I think the only
information I'll get is about the Sun.


Bye, I hope my written langage is understandable...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 97 10:28 GMT
From: walker@esc.cam.ac.uk (Greg Walker)
Subject: Re: Stars, colours and so on

yep. colour and size - it's a red dwarf. maybe a bit more orange than some

m0 - orange-red
m5 - cherry-red
V - small dim.

it started off with small hydrogen reserves compared to the sun, but it's barely on a simmer setting. lifetime will be several times longer than the sun, try 20billion as a ball park.

it's on the main sequence, where stars spend most of their lives.
so it's age is anything from 2 billion to age of universe-2billion. so no age in particular.

the light/radiation it's chucking out will be heavy in the red and infrared,
and weak in the blue light, let alone the UV

whilst you are close to the star, there isn't a lot of energy there for flares,
but it's possible the triggering porcess will be slower. Like a jacuzzi compared a volcanic mud pool, it could wait and the go pop. And I've heard the major damage is the high energy particles rather than UV/X/gamma. you'll have maybe 30 seconds after the visual flare before the high speed alphas etc hit.

ecosphere-
earth temperature or earth light? the IR will make it hot if you go for the same brightness:

earth temperature - it'll be dim. if it's using chlorophyll/imported stock, expect large leaves. pictures of stuff at the ground of forests and jungles would be about right. such plants would be useful anywhere else, colonising Mars type planets.

earth brightness - it'll be hot. water holding for the plants will be tricky. Go for jungles or cacti deserts/outback.

old planet - 
expect tidally locked. animals will be highly evolved, probably with poisons/advanced pharmaceuticals. 
plants may have evolved defensive measures, to conserve whatever sugars they do photosynthesise. 
carnivorous plants are mainly for nutrients/minerals, not sugars.
but symbiosis could be good, an animal living with the plant, and fending off all other grazers. most likely  to be something small like ants.
lizards could be a good one, given the temperature. they can also go dormant to conserve energy...

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 23:33:59 +1300
From: a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz (Andrew Vallance)
Subject: Re: Vargr invasion of Corridor (long)

>Hans Rancke wrote:
>> First of all, that is not quite correct. There is a rule somewhere that
>>worlds with the requisite tech level can build ships of up to 5000 T
>>displacement even without B or A starports.

>Well it's not in Trillion Credit Squadron which you had just agreed is our
>reference for ship building and maintenance.

>Andrew etc. wrote:
>> High Guard (pp 20):
>>   "....A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the
>>    borders of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct
>>    ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not
>>     present."

Chris Cox did speakest thus:
>Nice use of a reference, much better than just saying this is what we are
>told ;^) OK, I go ahead and concede Mikesh could have been building
>starships.  And from now on I assume that Trillion Credit Squadron in not a
>valid reference.

Nah, TCS is still a valid reference, just ya gotta remember that its
essentially an addendum to High Guard. TCS is the only placce I've seen
any rules on shipyard capacity, building times etc.

>Andrew etc. also wrote:
>> However if you follow the rules set out in Striker Book 2 pp38-39, you
>> get Mikesh having a GNP of MCr1,200,000,000. Taking military spending
>> as 3% of GNP you get a budget of MCr36,000,000. Now 30% of this goes
>> to the Imperium and of the rest 60% goes to the navy; giving a naval
>> budget of MCr15,120,000 (thats allows a standing navy of 151 TCS!!!)
>> Even if they've only built 5,000T ships, thats still going to take some
>> wadding through!

Chris Cox did speakest further:
>OK, lets use Striker. If we have Industrialized TL-13 (just for the sake of
>argument) Vargr world with a population of 60 billion, this gives us a GDP of
>1,512TCr (of course we don't know is such a world exists or not since we do
>not have data for the Provence Sector, but such a world could exist).  Now if
>we assume that military spending is 8%, not unreasonable considering the
>tension between Vargr states, we get a military budget of 120.96TCr.  Take
>40% for the Army, Multiply by 10 to get standing fleet size, and leaving 30%
>behind for home defense would give us and invasion force of 508.032TCr.  So,
>would this be a force large enough to bring Mikesh under Vargr control?

Yep, would say that such a world could reduce Mikesh given time (and the will,
especially important for Vargr). Is such a world plausable? Yes, uncommon,
but still well within the bounds of reasonable. Such a Vargr world would have
a strong tendancy toward instability, but that could provide reason for the
leader
to risk an invasion. However, looking at Corridor, its not needed. I'll explain.

Assuming the low to mid population worlds in Corridor are going to be relatively
easy prey to the Vargr, it only leaves the high population worlds to worry
about.
The high population worlds in Corridor are: Knouth (0104), Mikesh (0206),
Yubitty (0313), Irasumshu (0417), Drayne (0910), Shuskaka (1109), Durima
(1205), Kaasu (1209), Zudagim (1415), Khukish (1606), Ashima (1611), Plunge
(2505), and Uerrgno (2903) [I've ignored the rimward worlds beyond the rift].How
did these worlds fall? The simplest to explain are Yubitty, Irasumshu, Zudagim
and Uerrgno, none of these have higher than TL7, they just can't fight back.
That
leaves nine high population worlds. A quick look at Knouth (atmos C), Mikesh
(atmos B), Durima (Hydro 0) and Plunge (hydro 0). None of these worlds have
any chance of feeding themselves, blockade them and they have to surrender.
You can probably say the same for Shushaka (hydro 2) and Ashima (Atmos 4,
hydro 3, TL A); though Shushaka might hold out for a while. So that leaves just
three worlds: Drayne (B6749C9-D, 8 billion), Kaasu (AA7A9CD-G, 9 billion) and
Khukish (A77A989-F, 8 billion). I'll look at these worlds individually.

Drayne: Hydro 4 its going to have a rough time surviving, things are going
to get
    unpleasant for the population. They see the worlds around them falling,
figure
    out which way the winds blowing, have no idea how long they are going to
have
    to hold out; so they cut a deal and join a Vargr faction (not sure if
thats the right
    word) for protection
Kaasu: Admittedly this is much harder to explain. They have high tech, what
on the
    face of it is a relatively friendly biosphere. However, they're right
next door to
    Shushaka, the atmospher is tainted and again they can see how things are
    going. It is not too unreasonable for this world to fall, I think.
Khukish: Allegence = Non-aligned, not 'Independent Vargr' but 'Non-aligned'.
this
    world has not fallen.

So there we have it, I think a fairly reasonable explaination why the high
population
worlds in Corridor fell. Only Kaasu is uncertain.

Looking at the worlds in Corridor another interesting fact comes out. Look
at the
Vilani worlds in The Narrows subsector. No less than eight Corsair bases on
Vilani
worlds!!! and seven of them have a Vilani naval base in the same system. I'd put
penny to the pound that the Vilani supported the Vargr.

I have other Ideas regarding this, like how much of the losses suffered
during the
Fifth Frontier War had the Domain of Deneb replaced? How fast could the Vilani
bureacracy react to the Vargr threat? How willing would perceptive Vargr leaders
be to offering high tech human worlds (remember Vargr see humans as less
likely to worry about charisma) 'carrots'? But this is long enough already.
Maybe
one day :*)


  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:32:05 +0800
From: "Benjamin Barton" <aramis3d@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: Hulls

- ----------
> From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
> To: gdw-beta@qrc.com; traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: NAH: Hulls
> Date: Monday, January 06, 1997 2:33 AM
> Let's talk hulls for a minute.
> 
> I spent some time this weekend with FFS, my handy-dandy "Book of Formulae",
> and my calculator doodling with starship hulls.  You see, I've never been
> really clear as to what the various hull
> configurations, except Sphere <g>, really looked like, and that's important
> if you want to produce a deckplan.
>
> FFS calculates things based on the shape being a sphere.  It then uses a
> ratio of a non-spherical shape to the sphere to calculate the additional
> surface area that the non-spherical shape requires, *and* it's length. 
> >From the surface area you can figure out how much mass and volume the
> hull/armor takes.  From the length you can *maybe* figure out the width and
> height.  This works, but I'd like to be able to use my own configurations,
> not just the ones in the table.  (BTW, I think GDW did some pretty funky
> rounding...heck, I think they just plain bunged some of the numbers in the
> hull table.)


When I had the same problem last year. Now I have have a spreadsheet that
produces custom hull (Rate,Vol,MV,L) that are on the table(with some rounding).
even with rounding less then 100 tons produces errors of .3 more or less and
above 
20000 3-10 point errors are produced.

This was supplyed by angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)

I don't think that you can use a formula and get exactly the same values
as in the tables, due to rather iffy rounding. What I did was to use a
look-up table (this'll work in Excel or 1-2-3) laid out exactly like the
one in FFS and have the boxes for MV and Length filled in by getting the
hull rate value and matching it to the correct row in the table with a
column offset.

BTW, you are just as well to do it this way as you'll have to use this
(at least I can't think of an alternative) for the hull configurations.

If you want to discuss this further, please feel free to email me. If
you like, I could upload an example spreadsheet (either Excel 5 format)
 to an ftp site for you to download.

If you want to use a formula, you could try the following (guesses) :-

Starting value Hull Size in UCP Tonnes [rate]
Derive hull volume in cubic metres/kilolitres as [volume = rate * 14]
Assume a basic spherical hull form.
Calculate the radius of a sphere with the same volume as the hull by
cube root of [radius = cube root of {(volume * 3)/(pi * 4)}]
The basic hull [length = 2 * radius], rounding to the nearest 0.1
metres.
The surface area of the basic hull is [surface area = 4 * pi * radius *
radius].
Calculate material volume as [material volume = surface area / 100] (the
other way round than in FFS, but so what).

All values (except rate) are in metres, either linear, square or cubic
as appropriate.

If you want to be really clever, you could do similar things from
scratch for box, cylinder, cone, disk and slab hulls.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 01:51:13 +1300
From: a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz (Andrew Vallance)
Subject: Sunbane sectors

Does anybody know where I might get hold of the old
DPG sectors which were on the Sunbane ftp site?


  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 02:33:24 +1300
From: a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz (Andrew Vallance)
Subject: Re: What Milieus are to be produced? 

>
>
>On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Andrew Vallance wrote:

>> You have a large established base of players, many now in their 30's
>> with far higher disposable incomes than your average newbie. This
>> group generally has a good working knowledge of the background, and

>Well, who in this established base doesn't have starships and equipments
>that can readily be plug into play? There is no good reason why the
>backgroud books need be released 2-3 months after the basic rulebook.
>Even after a book on *minor* alien races!

Is there a good reason why they should be released earlier?

>> loyalty of the established player base (and the really cynical part of me
>> say's use them as a massive playtest). Then and only then, do you
>> aim to expand the player base. *Therefore* what gets released first
>> 1:   Basic rules
>> 2:   Equipment and advanced rules
>> Only after these things do you start producing things such as
>> background materials and adventures.

>Again, there is no good reason why they can't publish the background
>simulteneously or even *soon* (not months later) after the rulebook is out
>on the street.

Apart from Aliens what has been published? Answer = Gizmos.
Why? Gizmos are very popular, people like them, people buy
them, it helps pay the startup costs, plus they are "cheap" Lots
of helpful low cost advice right here on the TML. (Okay so
enough of the cynic from me :*) )

However you are right, the delay is a big snafu; but I can see why
it happened. Limited staff rushing to get a 'perfect' product out to
a tight deadline end up doing worse than if more time was
allowed. I've seen it happen time and time again in the publishing
industry. Things get delayed a bit here, then a bit more there, a little
more somewhere else, then people start rushing and in rushing
end up going slower. Its especially prone to happening when a
new project or company is just starting up.


  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 08:40:58 EST
From: galliand@juno.com (Scott M Galliand)
Subject: Traveller support on AOL

Does anybody know if the folks at Imperium Games are still reading mail
on AOL?  Does the company even have any idea there's a Traveller forum
there?

It's been awful quiet info-wise.

Scott M. Galliand
************************************************
E-mail: galliand@juno.com
WWW:  http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:57:54 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Mikesh and the Vargr

Chris Cox writes:
>Hans Rancke wrote:
>>First of all, that is not quite correct. There is a rule somewhere that 
>>worlds with the requisite tech level can build ships of up to 5000 T 
>>displacement even without B or A starports.
> 
>Well it's not in Trillion Credit Squadron which you had just agreed is our
>reference for ship building and maintenance.

Sigh... It is ONE of our references for ship building and maintenance. Just
as we're also using _Striker_. "The rules" is anything published by GDW and
whatever else that is considered canonical. This works as long as the rules 
dosen't contradict themselves or the background or reality. When they do, we 
have to use our judgement.

>Andrew etc. wrote:
>>High Guard (pp 20):
>>   "....A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the
>>borders of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct 
>>ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not 
>>present."
> 
>Nice use of a reference, much better than just saying this is what we are
>told ;^)  

Well, I'm sorry I left my eidetic memory in my other pants. Remind me to 
apologize abjectly for my lack of omniscence when I'm through being annoyed
over that remark. Are you claiming that we haven't been told that Vargr TLs
are maximum 13? If you are, I'll be happy to go home and dig out a proper
reference. Well?

>OK, I go ahead and concede Mikesh could have been building starships. And 
>from now on I assume that Trillion Credit Squadron in not a valid reference.

Why don't you try assuming that we're having a meaningful discussion instead
of a petulant brawl. Much more rewarding for all concerned. I've learned
things and had several good ideas through having this discussion. What about 
you?
 
>Andrew etc. also wrote:
>>However if you follow the rules set out in Striker Book 2 pp38-39, you
>>get Mikesh having a GNP of MCr1,200,000,000. Taking military spending
>>as 3% of GNP you get a budget of MCr36,000,000. Now 30% of this goes
>>to the Imperium and of the rest 60% goes to the navy; giving a naval
>>budget of MCr15,120,000 (thats allows a standing navy of 151 TCS!!!)
>
>OK, lets use Striker. If we have Industrialized TL-13 (just for the sake of
>argument) Vargr world with a population of 60 billion, this gives us a GDP of
>1,512TCr (of course we don't know is such a world exists or not since we do
>not have data for the Provence Sector, but such a world could exist).  

Possibly, though given what we've been told about Vargr societies ("All of
Vargr society is subject to twin forces  -  a centrifugal force bringing
small groups together and make them more cohesive, and a centripetal force
pushing the group apart. All of Vargr society is constantly pushed and
pulled by these twin forces." _Rebellion_ p. 62) such a world would most 
likely be balkanized. And if it isn't, it's leaders would be reluctant to
send off most of its navy to conquer a world that would most likely secede
the moment it got itself a sufficiently charismatic governor.

>Now if we assume that military spending is 8%, not unreasonable considering 
>the tension between Vargr states, 

OH, you can assume 15% if you like.

>we get a military budget of 120.96TCr. Take 40% for the Army, Multiply by 
>10 to get standing fleet size, and leaving 30% behind for home defense 
>would give us and invasion force of 508.032TCr.  So, would this be a force 
>large enough to bring Mikesh under Vargr control?

Yes, assuming that such a world exists, that it isn't balkanized, that it
lies sufficiently close to Mikesh for its leadership to expect to be able to 
retain control, that it really had used 70 % for offensive armament and only 
30% for defensive, and that it decided to act the moment it heard about the 
departure of the Corridor fleets, then it could capture Mikesh. But you're 
missing the point. Mikesh was merely the first high-population world I found 
in the Corridor listing, which is why I've been using it as an example. 
There's nothing else special about Mikesh. Losing it to the Vargr is indeed 
possible; losing any single high-population world to the Vargr is possible, 
assuming the right combination of circumstances (Of course, the primary 
assumption (that a Vargr government with the required strength and astro-
graphical location would also have the desire to invade a high-population 
world) is a bit hard to swallow, but what the hell...). But there are half a 
dozen worlds in Corridor of the same strength level and another dozen that 
is too strong for any Vargr Corsairs (Which are the forces we've been told 
invade Corridor). You need a separate uniques set of circumstances (each 
involving a Vargr state rather than Vargr Corsairs) to account for the 
defeat of each of these worlds. And when you're done with that, you still 
need to explain why Norris didn't interfere eventually.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:02:36 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Plasmas - adn other newbie's question (long)

I've some embarassing questions abouts Plasmas

- ---  Generic information. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Plasmas are ionisated gazes which density is lower at same pressure than
their non ionisated form. Plasmas can have different range of temperature,
the more heat it has, the more important is the rate of ionized gazes. For
example, at 16000 K, 98% of H2 is under plasma form.   

Thermonuclear reaction starts when the plasma has sufficient energy (Temp
and pressure) to overcome the electromagnetic forces that repluse the
protons. Temperature is around 10,000,000 K. The short range Strong force
frees massive energy which is used in fusion reaction.

I've read that in an encyclopedia that ionospheres has a non negligeable
rate of plasma

Earth has a ionosphere less than 200K but in the meantine Saturn has a 1700K
plasma.

The most strange is Jupiter. Orbiting around it, there is a huge tore of
Plasma. The radius is 5 time Jupiter's one, and the tore section is around
the size of Jupiter diameter. This tore radiates lot's on radio waves.
Voyager I and II had taken some measurement of tis effect. In a 4 month span
the radiations had doubled and the temperature of the tore has fallen from
100,000K to 60,000K !!!

The situation if this tore in not hasard, it is heavily linked to the
presence of Io right iniside it. Io is mainly frozen sulfures (i think) with
a groud temperature around 150K. What i don't understand is why the plasma
tore hasn't heaten the Io athmosphere.

Obviously, there is a very low density of plasma in this tore. But what
would be the effect of a starship crossig this kind of plasma?



- ---- TNE questions

1- Heplar

As this propulsion device generates plasma (which has a relatively low
density), it has a better efficiency than some non ionized gases. right?

What is the temperature of such a propulsor. There is a picture in TNE, of a
Scout/courier flying just over the sea. The waves behind it seems to be
vaporised by the ship, indicating a very high temperature, assuming that the
ship flies at average speed (2000 kph).

Is this a correct interpretation? what are the effect on ground, especially
around cities and starports.


2- Plasma weapons. 

High energy weapon uses a chemical detonation to heat H2 to plasma state in
a magnetique bottle and frees it at high speed. The destructive agent is in
this case the temperature of the "plasma bullet". As the plasma weapion are
moved to fusion weapon, the temperature might be a least around 1,000,000 K.
So what is the average mass of super heated plasma which is projected with
small weapons? I assume that heavier weapon project more plasma mass.


3- Fusion rocket

Simple : Why the fusion rocket is radiactive? I thought fusion create no
radiations instead of fission


4- FFS - second edition

I've got the fisrt one, can any body tell me the main differences between
the two releases of FFS.

By the way, I've seens is some Web page (I don't have the reference but i
think it's the FFS second edition errata), that plasma and fusion small
weapons dammages where quite doubled. This seem to be very dangerous for
players. Even if the plasma weapon are extremely destrucive in their
conception, it is hard for a player to use it. I explain : There is no fun
to fire at an enemy, which is instantely dead when I hit him. 

And it's much harder for the GM. Last year, i've mastered a ADD like RPG.
Characters where in forest where giants lives. They fought some giants (one
or two each time) with great diffiulites. At a time, i wnated them to go in
a precise direction. So i put 8 giants, they ran and the giants too (this
was big fun). As they weren't fool (they didn't attack the 8 giants) they
had good chance to succeed the evasion. Know think the Giants were Combat
robots with plasma weapon (glups!). The lives of the Characters cannot be
condition by a hit or not hit dice result. 

Could you tell me you opinion about thoses weapons. In which case did you
have great fun in using those weapons (either player or GM)?
Personnally, I'm mastering a TNE adventure in a week, I won't use this kind
of destructive weapon. 


5- Last newbie question

Does armor protect against Concussion? 
I would say no, armor protect only from burst...


Thanks
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Ingineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #817
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 7 1997      Volume 1996 : Number 818



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

No discrepancy.
Re: Stars, colours and so on
Re: Transferring funds from Mikesh
SSDS & QSDS Missing...
Re: Vargr invasion of Corridor
[none]
Re: Starship V1 design spreadsheet available.
Re: Problems with Starship Luxury Liner
Re: CT adventure found in FLGS
Re: Starship's
Fusion Energy Sorces (info I mean)
Re: A Discrepancy?
A question about "The Controlled"
Corridor Invasion details
The FAQ for this Mailing List
Re: "Plasma" questions
Re: Stars, colours, and so on

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:10:21 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: No discrepancy.

Dedly@aol.com writes:
>With all the talk about the Scout Service interdicting on behalf of low TL 
>worlds & trading in general w low TL worlds, I began to wonder about Sorel. 
>It's a TL1 world right next door to Glisten (TL15). My old Spinward Marches 
>supplement does not give Sorel an A or R rating. Why not? I would think 
>that this would be a prime example for interdiction.

It's usual for the Scouts to interdict primitive planets for their protection,
but that's only a rule of thumb. Besides, the rules are administered by 
people, and people sometimes makes mistakes (or are bribed) I don't know why 
Sorel is not interdicted; perhaps its society is of the rare kind that in the
opinion of some Scout Survey commander is stable enough to survive contact;
perhaps some event forced the contact and presented the Scouts with a fait
accompli. Perhaps the whole culture is nomadic. However, even though Sorel 
is in contact with interstellar society it could still (propably is) be under 
import restrictions. An Interdiction includes an embargo, of course, but the
reverse is not true.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:16:38 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Stars, colours and so on

>ecosphere-
>earth temperature or earth light? the IR will make it hot if you go for
>the same brightness:

Why is that? Luminosity is in bolometric so integrated over all
wavelengths. That is; lum 1 would make for same temp no matter what
wavelength(?)
Greenhouse effect will make the planet cooler though. Greenhouse on earth
works as visible light goes through greenhouse gasses, heats ground and
bounces back as IR which greenhouse gasses trap. A planet with same gasses
would trap IR to the outside instead(?)

>earth temperature - it'll be dim. if it's using chlorophyll/imported
>stock, expect large leaves. pictures of stuff at the ground of forests and
>jungles would be about right. such plants would be useful anywhere else,
>colonising Mars type planets.

Doesn't chlorofyll require certain minimum energy photons to work? If soo
then it would be hard to make normal plants grow on such a planet. Also
note that M stars tend to be very old and their planets therefore lacking
in heavy elements necessary for life.


/Backman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:29:49 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Transferring funds from Mikesh

Andrew Vallance writes:
>High Guard (pp 20):
>   "....A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders
>    of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its
>    planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present."
> 
>This gives no limitation on size at all. The way I'd play it is that any world
>with sufficent tech can build a ship, but without a shipyard you can't get
>a class discount or speed up delivery

Hi, Andrew. Welcome to the list. You are a newcomer, aren't you? Thanks for
the quote. I don't know where I got the 5000 T limitation from and I
appreciate the correction.

>>For one thing, it would take a humongous merchant fleet to move the Mikesh 
>>taxes to some other world and build the ships there; it is much more 
>>efficient to build the ships where the wealth is generated).
> 
>No it wouldn't, one 100T scout could do it (more likely a 100T x-boat though),
>tax in kind went out of fashion a while ago, it just got too hard lugging
>all those sheep around :*). 

The list went through this argument only the other week, Andrew ;-). Tax in
kind never went out of fashion, we merely developed money to facilitate the
process. You still pay your taxes in goods and/or labour. You just use money 
to keep score, but where did you get the money to pay the tax? That's right, 
you worked for it.

>Mikesh's taxes would almost certainly take the form of an electronic funds 
>transfer, 

But a draft on Mikesh is worthless unless you can buy things on Mikesh and
ship them to whereever you are.

>even if it was shipped as currency notes a stack of 1,000 x Cr10,000 notes 
>(the largest domination) weighs 500 grams and takes up 75mm x 125mm x 50mm 
>[Imperial Encyclopedia pp 22]. Doing a few quick sums I get 1T of cargo 
>space (14m3) storing Mcr298,666.666 (well I was bored). So you can fit 
>Mikesh's entire GNP in a little over 4,000T of cargo space.

Sure, but not unless Mikesh first sell enough stuff to the Imperium to get
the Crimp-notes. Believe me, it is much simpler for Mikesh to pay its taxes
by building and maintaining ships for the Imperium.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 09:50:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: SSDS & QSDS Missing...

Well, I kept wondering to myself why everyone was 
complaining about T4 so much... then I figured it out!

People were trying to use the rules! Ah-ha!

Seriously, I was trying to design a ship's boat and
there is no entry that I could find in either QSDS
or SSDS for the size/cost/etc of a seat/couch for a
single person. My CT starship design sequence says
it's .5 Td (7m^3) but I think this would be nice to 
actually put into T4. Waiting for NAH just to design
a 50T gig is a bit silly.

FF&S owners, designers, official numbers for an acceleration
couch? Not a g-tank, as I already have inertial comps.
And not a bunk, as I don't want my crew to sleep, I want
them to fly the ship.

Or are small craft standing room only?

Ethan
ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:01:46 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Vargr invasion of Corridor

Andrew Vallance writes:
>Assuming the low to mid population worlds in Corridor are going to be 
>relatively easy prey to the Vargr, it only leaves the high population 
>worlds to worry about.

I don't agree with that assumption. The high-medium population worlds (ie. 
population level 8) are also beyond the strength of the Vargr Corsairs. You 
still need Vargr governments to take them.

>The high population worlds in Corridor are: Knouth (0104), Mikesh (0206),
>Yubitty (0313), Irasumshu (0417), Drayne (0910), Shuskaka (1109), Durima
>(1205), Kaasu (1209), Zudagim (1415), Khukish (1606), Ashima (1611), Plunge
>(2505), and Uerrgno (2903. How did these worlds fall? The simplest to 
>explain are Yubitty, Irasumshu, Zudagim and Uerrgno, none of these have 
>higher than TL7, they just can't fight back. That leaves nine high 
>population worlds. A quick look at Knouth (atmos C), Mikesh (atmos B), 
>Durima (Hydro 0) and Plunge (hydro 0). None of these worlds have any chance 
>of feeding themselves, blockade them and they have to surrender.

Why? You don't think that any high-population world would be dependent on
importing things like food, air and water? The logistics of doing so is
prohibitive. All of these worlds can feed themselves although they'd run 
short on gourmet imports.

>You can probably say the same for Shushaka (hydro 2) and Ashima (Atmos 4,
>hydro 3, TL A); though Shushaka might hold out for a while. 

Same argument.

>So that leaves just three worlds: Drayne (B6749C9-D, 8 billion), Kaasu 
>(AA7A9CD-G, 9 billion) and Khukish (A77A989-F, 8 billion). 
> 
>Drayne: Hydro 4 its going to have a rough time surviving, things are going
>to get unpleasant for the population. They see the worlds around them falling,
>figure out which way the winds blowing, have no idea how long they are going 
>to have to hold out; so they cut a deal and join a Vargr faction (not sure if
>thats the right word) for protection.
>Kaasu: Admittedly this is much harder to explain. They have high tech, what
>on the face of it is a relatively friendly biosphere. However, they're right
>next door to Shushaka, the atmospher is tainted and again they can see how 
>things are going. It is not too unreasonable for this world to fall, I think.

I have to disagree. They might take the opportunity to go independent and
carve out their own little pocket empires instead of cleaving to their
allegiance to the Imperium, but joining a Vargr Corsair alliance is a very
unlikely thing to do. Though they might allow some Vargr to join _them_, if
they decided to go independent.

>Khukish: Allegiance = Non-aligned, not 'Independent Vargr' but 'Non-aligned'.
>this world has not fallen.

True. But neither have they reestablished peace and trade with their close
neighbours despite having had three years to build up their navy.
 
>I have other Ideas regarding this, like how much of the losses suffered
>during the Fifth Frontier War had the Domain of Deneb replaced? 

Well, since it is sound sense to reactivate mothballed ships before beginning
new construction (1/10th the time and 1/10th the cost) and since Trin is still
reactivating ships in 1123 (See _Arrival Vengeance_), it is most likely that
the Domain has as many ships laid up as their budget allows. If we assume that
the Imperial worlds use 3% of GNP in peacetime and 15% in wartime, the moth-
balled navy could be 8 times as large as the peacetime navy.

>How fast could the Vilani bureacracy react to the Vargr threat? 

A year? 

>How willing would perceptive Vargr leaders be to offering high tech human 
>worlds (remember Vargr see humans as less likely to worry about charisma) 
>'carrots'? 

What kind of carrot could a Vargr leader offer a world like Kaasu to get 
them to join him? Though the Vargr might be able to convince Kaasu to let 
_them_ join _it_! ;-)



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:09:12 +0000
From: marcus.price@ukaea.org.uk (Marcus Price)
Subject: [none]

    Hi - I hope this appears - Ok,Yes, another darn beginner ;)

    A good source of information on Fusion is the UK Atomic Enery Authoritites

    web page :   WWW.fusion.org.uk

    It explains what it is and our primative steps to achieve it ( by traveller 
standards anyway! ) .

    Marcus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 10:29:16 -0600
From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Starship V1 design spreadsheet available.

At 10:52 AM 1/7/97 +0200, Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi> wrote:
>        Starship V1 design spreadsheet is now available.

Bravo Antti!!!

You have a very well laid out spreadsheets, and great design. You have have
giving me some ideas as to spreadsheet design. To the rest of this list
check out his spreadsheets.

Again Bravo.

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net
- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2
mQCNAy/neZgAAAEEALdbtUFkL1kkqT35tHGc2IRnnCtcWj1n0qzH2yA8NPTJb2DI
UGoZGO4FOo623oqiA0/k6vYSQGOGa9sq1nLdf8EgyMmB5Hbeqh9nHKj8wL46u9gT
8PPCiawmhEmnp517Bzma2t0E8uml4x5AvTUjhK2iAooHHIQJtMzEhqYItUlNAAUR
tCBzaW5iYWQgc2FtIDxzaW5iYWRAbWV0cm9uZXQuY29tPg==
=V+w2
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:36:31 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Problems with Starship Luxury Liner

On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Lewis Roberts wrote:

> I never saw plans for the King Richard by FASA, but I read that it too
> was 5000 tons, Can anyone give details on numbers of people it carried
> or anything else useful?
> 

I can't remember exact details, but the King Richard was (in my opinion)
built with a complete disregard for fuel requirements, space requirements,
etc.  As an example it is useless.  I was written after High Guard, but
there really weren't any good rules about deckplans then.

The adventure overall is pretty fun though, so don't pass it up if you can
find it.

Pete

P.s.  Douglas, you can have a rocket launcher, but just try to find
compatible rockets.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 97 18:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: CT adventure found in FLGS

In-Reply-To: <199701052004.MAA03086@victor1.mscomm.com>

<< I don't know how many people's interested, but I found two copies of 
a FASA CT Double Adventure (The Harrensa Project/The Stazhlekh Report) 
at my local game store for US$1.  I picked up one of the copies -- is 
anyone interested in the other? >>

I've never even heard of that one!

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 12:14:10 -0600 (CST)
From: Ryan Dooley <ryan@coe.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship's

On Mon, 6 Jan 1997 Kagehira@aol.com wrote:

>       Well after all the complaints about starships, how about doing our own?
> 
>       Would anyone care to donate some time and effort into such a project?
> 
>       What we would need are some designers, and most especially some people
> who can do some artwork and deckplans (I'll settle for two out of three). All
> submissions will be posted on a web page if people are willing (the other
> possibility is sending the info in for publication if that's what the
> participants want also).
> 
>       Any takers?
> 

Right here... I have a couple of designs for ships I am converting to HTML
sometime... some were made with QSDS and some with SSDS.  Don't have any
deckplans or pictures outside of drawings I have made to put up yet tho.

and IMHO, Starships wasn't that bad, it was just way overpriced for the
amount of material covered....

Anyway, yeah I am in for a Net Ship Design System with materials to
accompany....

>       Bryan Borich
> 
> 

- --ryan

=======================================================================
+ Ryan Dooley                       * ryan@coe.missouri.edu           +
+ Network / Systems Administrator   * voice: (573) 882-2162           +
+ University of Missouri - Columbia * College of Education            +
=======================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 12:26:10 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Fusion Energy Sorces (info I mean)

On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Marcus Price wrote:

>     Hi - I hope this appears - Ok,Yes, another darn beginner ;)

Welcome!

> 
>     A good source of information on Fusion is the UK Atomic Enery Authoritites
> 
>     web page :   WWW.fusion.org.uk
> 

Not to blow my (our) own horn, but my own department has a good web page
too;

www.pfc.mit.edu

Look for my Boss (Ian Hutchinson) on the Alcator pages!

Includes an explanation of Fusion, pictures and diagrams, spin-off
research (superconductin magnets, maglev technology, etc) and local
weather.

Oh, and if you are in the (Cambridge, MA) area and give me some advance
notice, you can get a tour of the facility on certain dates (including
Jan 16th coming up).

Incidentially, if you *are* in the area on January 15th you can attend
the seminar entitled "Tokamak Fundementals for Poets" (a tokamak is a type
of Fusion Reactor, toroidal in shape).

email or call for more details.

Pete

brenton@pfc.mit.edu	(617) 253-3185

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:01:17 -0600
From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Subject: Re: A Discrepancy?

Dedly@aol.com wrote:
>
> With all the talk about the Scout Service interdicting on behalf
> of low TL worlds & trading in general w low TL worlds, I began to
> wonder about Sorel. It's a TL1 world right next door to Glisten
> (TL15). My old Spinward Marches supplement does not give Sorel an A
> or R rating. Why not? I would think that this would be a prime
> example for interdiction. 

My understanding is that the Scouts generally recommend interdiction 
to shield a young or sensitive culture from the interference that 
interstellar trade and commerce will bring.

Sorel might have a older or robust culture.

Perhaps it's an enclave of former Glistenites that would rather do
without high technology and seek to return to a simpler way of life.

Perhaps the locals view high technology as a mere curiosity and
figure that they're way of life is better.

Perhaps it's some sort of holiday world that's kept barren of high
technology so that Glistenites and other inhabitants of the Spinward
Marches have a place to get away and enjoy nature. Of course, it
might cost Cr1,000s or Cr10,000s or Cr100,000 for the priviledge of 
visiting for a week or less.

Just a few thoughts.

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@NASCRAG.ORG

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 11:25:27 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: A question about "The Controlled"

I'm reading through the Aliens Archive, and while I am generally impressed,
something about The Controlled" bothers me.

I can't figure out when this write up is supposed to have been written.  The
mixed references to all three Imperia makes it hard to determine just when
the Guy-troy were first contacted, when the Imperium (which one?) decided to
destroy their culture, and how the Third Imperium figures into all this.

The situation is even more muddled by the last paragraph on pg 23 that has
Imperial intervention taking place 300 years ago!  If this is supposed to be
a M:0 book, it should have been a Sylean intervention..

So far, this is my only real problem with the book; although I would have
preferred having the full illustration of each race with its write up as
opposed to just the skeleton.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:00:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Corridor Invasion details

More Corridor invasion comments:

I looked more closely at the Corridor situation, and turned up some
interesting information.  First, a timetable of events:

Date      Day  Week
221-1117    0     0  Depot "finally" recieves Transfer Order, 328 days
                     after learning of the assasination. 
242-1117   21     3  Corridor Fleet departs for Zarushagar. 
102-1118  246    35  In an unprecedented display of cooperation, the Vargr
                     "Destiny Alliance" attacks Depot with a 500 ship fleet.
                     The three squadron security fleet is overwhelmed.
130-1118  274    39  Depot falls to the Destiny Alliance.
171-1118  315    45  ADM Andreas Xavier orders resistance on Depot to cease.
                     The Vaenggvae take over under Noegzoel.  Largest three
                     factions follow her.  Windhorn Alliance formed.
188-1118  332    47  Battle of Durima, between Vargr invaders and Durima
                     system defenses, augmented by fleets from Khukish.
                     Humans drive off attack.
010-1119  519    74  RVE and Deneb end abortive attempt to retake sector,
                     after coming to blows near Durima.
- ----------------------------------
Construction times, TCS, in weeks:

Light cruiser (20000 d-ton)  == 174 weeks (87)
Heavy cruiser (50000 d-ton)  == 192 weeks (96)
Battleship    (100000 d-ton) == 208 weeks (104)

The times in parentheses assume that the ship isn't the first built in the 
class by the starport, double the yard capacity is assigned to it, and 20% 
extra of the unmodified ship cost is paid.  This allows (0.4+0.4+0.2) == 1
extra week of work of work to be completed every week, the maximum allowed.

- ----------------------------------
Okay, so what do we have to work with?  This is a list of all the worlds I
could find in Corridor with tech-13+ yards with 100,000 d-tons or more of
TCS construction capacity (calculation is (population * 1.2/1000)):

Durima        1205 B420ADE-F  G Hi Na In Po De     234 Vg A7 V

Kaasu         1209 AA7A9CD-G    Hi In Wa Cx        922 Vg A6 V
Khukish       1606 A77A989-F    Hi In Wa Cp        823 Na G9 V
Shushaka      1109 A772988-F    Hi In              815 Vg M0 V K2 D
Plunge        2505 B2409CC-E  H Hi In Po De        824 Vh G7 V
Khouth        0104 A8C3999-D    Hi Fl Cp           420 Vf M3 V
Drayne        0910 B6749C9-D  H Hi In Rs           801 Vh F3 V M4 V

Kiran         0112 A354856-F  G                    901 Vf M0 V K5 V
Demick        1013 A532879-E    Na Po              702 Va K6 V

[Any others are on the far side of the Rift.]

A quick rundown, with information collected from MTJ about what happened
with these worlds:

DURIMA fought off one attack in 1118, but fell between 1119 and 1120 despite
  support from Khukish.  Jump-4 from Khukish, Kaasu, and Shushaka; 7 parsecs 
  from Depot.  [I wouldn't think this would fall, but maybe they didn't have
  much of a defense fleet.  Seems unlikely.]
KAASU fought until 1119, when Marquis Jan Rehman negotiated a separate peace 
  with the Dzarrgh Federate.  Has allowed tech-16 equipment to fall into the
  hands of Vargr since then, but maintains some autonomy.  Jump-3 from Depot.
KHUKISH is free and holding, apparently without too much difficulty.  Jump-5
  from Depot, Kaasu, and Shushaka, jump-4 from Durima. 
We know nothing of SHUSHAKA, except that it's jump-1 from Kaasu, jump-4 from
  Depot, and appears to have fallen to the Vargr by 1120.  [Again, you'd bet
  this would hold, even though the Vargr could use Kaasu to resupply.]
PLUNGE declared itself an open planet, and is involved in a very lucrative
  trade supporting the fleets of the Windhorn Alliance.
KHOUTH is too close to the Dzarrgh Federate border for safety, especially
  with its' lower tech.  It's on the Denebian sector border, and on its own.
DRAYNE is jump-2 from Shushaka and jump-3 from Kaasu.
KIRAN is on the Denebian sector border.
DEMICK is jump-5 from Kaasu, Depot, and Shushaka.

Hans wrote:
> Secondly, Mikesh suposedly has a class C starport in 1120 after being taken
> over by Vargr. I'm not surprised that their starport isn't up to snuff after
> being attacked by 13+ Vargr fleets. However, that dosen't say anything about 
> what it was in 1117.

Class-C.  At least, according to the pre-Rebellion sector files on the net
for Corridor.  I agree, you'd think they'd have *some* starship manufacturing
capability....

- ------

Finally, on Vargr technology and fleet strength, from _Vilani & Vargr_.  The
way the world generation tech level rules work, where the Imperium would have
three tech-15 worlds, the Vargr have one tech-13, one at 14, and one at 15.
This gives them a fighting chance against the Imperial reserves (tech-14 in
general) and mothballed ships pulled into service that the Corridor Fleet 
didn't reactivate to take with them (tech-13/14 in general).  In TCS, to
reactivate a ship in ordinary takes 10% of construction time; the Fleet had
plenty of time to reactivate most of the operable ships in the mothball 
fleet and take them with, assuming the shipyard capacity was available,
which is less than clear, and that they got started even a couple of months
after notification of the assassination.

Also, just around the Windhorn is Llaegharrgh, a Vargr high-population,
tech-16 world.  It's been involved in a brutal five year war, but enough
battle-seasoned corsairs left to join in that the war came to a temporary
standstill; these corsairs would be *extremely* dangerous.  They'd be few
in number, I think.  [They're the capital of the Llaegharrgh Interactate,
and get a mention in DGP's Vilani and Vargr.]

We know the Dzarrgh Federate sent its' regular navy into the fray.  It 
seems they're using the invasion as a common mission to hold their worlds
together.  The Irrgh Manifest sent so much of its' fleet into Corridor 
that the Glory of Taazkhorn took over some of its' worlds; the larger
part of the fleet ended up working for Noegzoel and her Windhorn Alliance,
and is chopping up Kaasu subsector.  The Glory was apparently heavily
hiring corsairs before the Rebellion, to launch a crusade against the
Manifest; after taking a handful of worlds, they called off the crusade
and are attacking Corridor instead.

Perhaps the Corridor government was only expecting corsair raids, not a
full-blown invasion by Vargr interstellar governments, but this seems
really dumb on their part.  I'll also note that for whatever reason, the
Imperium seemed to feel it *needed* two full numbered fleets in each
subsector in Corridor to defend from the Vargr threat -- if it was really
meant for use against the Zhodani, they would have been much more usefully
stationed at the Denebian depot.  I suspect that the Vargr also had a
*lot* more ships than would be normal -- after all, they need to defend
themselves against the massive Imperial threat in Corridor!  What if the
Imperium decided to widen the Corridor all the way to the Windhorn Rift,
to secure it against a natural barrier?  This thought can't be far from
the Vargr's minds.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Aug 56 13:44:07 -0000
From: Jason Doell <jdoell@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: The FAQ for this Mailing List

I was wondering if anyone could post me the FAQ as I am extremely new to 
this list and am wondering what has happened to the Traveller universe 
since GDW went the way of the Dodo. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jason Doell - Univ. of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon Canada, 
<jdoell@eagle.wbm.ca>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob's your uncle...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:20:07 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: "Plasma" questions

Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr> wrote:

> 1- Heplar
> 
> As this propulsion device generates plasma (which has a relatively low
> density), it has a better efficiency than some non ionized gases. right?
> 
> What is the temperature of such a propulsor. There is a picture in TNE, of a
> Scout/courier flying just over the sea. The waves behind it seems to be
> vaporised by the ship, indicating a very high temperature, assuming that the
> ship flies at average speed (2000 kph).

Well, I haven't bothered to do the math, but it needs to come out quite hot
to get the specific impulse (fuel efficiency) that it does.  You probably
wouldn't want to be standing real close to one of those things, which is
why so many of us thought HEPlaR on grav vehicles in TNE was a Bad Idea.
That's part of why T4 gravitics don't just counteract gravity, but also
produce thrust.

> 3- Fusion rocket
>
> Simple : Why the fusion rocket is radiactive? I thought fusion create no
> radiations instead of fission

To get the performance that is reported, it turns out that the exhaust
has to come off with absurdly dangerous relativistic velocities.  The
particles coming off the back may as well be cosmic rays, for all the 
kinetic energy they need to have.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:21:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Stars, colours, and so on

> Date: 07 Jan 97 18:19:34 +1100
> From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
> Subject: Stars, colours and so on
> 
>      Does anybody out there know what a type M0V star might look like?

An M0 V is a very low-mass, low-temperature, low-luminosity star on the
Main Sequence ("adult" stars still burning almost pure hydrogen in their
cores).  Such a star would be distinctly orange-yellow in appearance, a
color rather similar to an incandescent lightbulb on a dimmer switch
turned about 2/3 of the way down.

A lot of science fiction sources allege that type M stars would be a truer
red in color, like stoplight red, but this is inaccurate.  The best
picture of how an M0 V star might look from a habitable world circling it
might be obtained by visiting the coastline of Los Angeles on a smoggy,
hazy day, and looking at the sun -- dimmer, yellow-orange.  Such a star
would also likely be bigger (in angular size) in the sky of a habitable
world, as its lower temperature and luminosity would require such a world
to be *very* close in order to get enough warmth.

In turn, this requirement for proximity would in all likelihood result in
the world being tidally locked to the star -- either in 1:1 resonance like
the moon is with respect to the earth (i.e., one face always toward the
primary), or perhaps in 3:2 resonance like Mercury with respect to the sun
(three rotations per two orbits) if the planet's orbit is notably
eccentric. 

>      I seem to remember that stars go in this sequence: 
>      O B A F G K M  (various mnemonics, mostly obscene) 
>      and I think they range from hottest (type O) down to coolest (type M). 

That's correct.

>      So would I be correct in assuming that a type MOV might be a dim, 
>      reddish looking thingy? And are M0V stars old, young, or no age in 
>      particular? 

Basically, yes, though as I said above, the color would be more of a faded
orange than a true red.

As for their age, M0 V stars are the longest-lived star types.  Being so
small (and thus having relatively less-dense, low-temperature cores), they
burn their hydrogen *very* slowly indeed.  IIRC, an M0 V has a projected
main-sequence lifetime of around 20 billion years.  In other words, all
the M0 V stars that have ever formed are still around today.

Needless to say, any *particular* M0 V could be young, old, or
middle-aged.

>      ALSO: a planet would have to be very close to such a star in order to 
>      be in the habitable zone; Grand Survey reckons that the planet should 
>      be in the closest orbit, 0.2AU distance. Would this have adverse 
>      effects eg from solar flares, UV radiation, tidal effects and the 
>      like, or is an M0V just too damn boring for anything of the sort? 

As I mentioned above, any world close enough to be habitable would almost
certainly be tidally locked.  Flares on a M0 V would probably not be much
of a problem; as you guess, they're fairly boring little things, just
quietly burning away their hydrogen, wondering if they'll live long enough
to see the Big Gnab... :)  There'd be *very* little UV from an M0 V.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #818
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 8 1997     Volume 1996 : Number 819



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Star colors, etc
M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues
Traveller Integrated Timeline - help wanted...
"Banked" (Long-Term) XP's for T4 [Variant]
Re: [T96#814] Size in the sky
Re: [T96#815] Ship Accommodations
Re: Sunbane sectors
Re: SSDS & QSDS Missing...
Founder 5000
Pres. Release From Founder Ship Work
Re: Stars, colours and so on
Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEBSITE
Note On: News From Imperium Games
Re: Starship V1 design spreadsheet available.
Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEBSITE
Re: "Banked" (Long-Term) XP's for T4 [Variant]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:28:24 -0500
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Star colors, etc

I'm no expert but I do know that there are some things that need to cleared
up:

There are no green stars.
Type      Color
B            Bluish-White
A            White
F            Yellowish-White

V- Main Sequence Stars are not dwarves. D is the notation for Dwarf.

I recommend a visit to the Planetary Society website at:

http://planetary.org/tps/

They have a page that offers links to Astronomical Web Pages as well as
technical ones, i.e. NASA, JPL, etc.

\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:00:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues

Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> writes:
> An M0 V is a very low-mass, low-temperature, low-luminosity star on the
> Main Sequence
<snip>
> its lower temperature and luminosity would require such a world
> to be *very* close in order to get enough warmth.
> In turn, this requirement for proximity would in all likelihood result in
> the world being tidally locked to the star -- either in 1:1 resonance like
> the moon is with respect to the earth (i.e., one face always toward the
> primary), or perhaps in 3:2 resonance like Mercury with respect to the sun
> (three rotations per two orbits) if the planet's orbit is notably
> eccentric. 

Here's a question for ya. Can a tidally-locked world be habitable (capable
of supporting life on its own with a "pleasant" and somewhat constant
temperature) at any given location on the planetary surface? I was under
the assumption before this discussion started that tidal-locking would
cause extremes of temperature. One side of the planet could be boiling,
and the other side would be frozen solid. Would a tidally-locked planet
be able to maintain its atmosphere? If not... then the possibility of
habitation is pretty much flushed down the toilet.

> As for their age, M0 V stars are the longest-lived star types.  Being so
> small (and thus having relatively less-dense, low-temperature cores), they
> burn their hydrogen *very* slowly indeed.  IIRC, an M0 V has a projected
> main-sequence lifetime of around 20 billion years.  In other words, all
> the M0 V stars that have ever formed are still around today.
> 
> Needless to say, any *particular* M0 V could be young, old, or
> middle-aged.

And that brings up another question. What percentage of M0 V stars are
first generation stars? If they are first generation, then they probably
won't have any rocky planets, just gas giants. Only 2nd generation and
later stars are likely to have planets rich in a variety of higher-order
elements. If the vast majority of M0 V are first generation, then this
is a major strike against them in terms of having habitable worlds.

jimv@empirenet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 16:02:41 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@csci.csc.com>
Subject: Traveller Integrated Timeline - help wanted...

Ok, I have an updated version of the timeline, and thanks to those of you
who have sent me stuff so far...

But, I am not happy with my method of presentation on the web; if any of
you who have Traveller web sites have suggestions on how to make a true
database available on the web, please e-mail me separately...

The update isn't available yet - I want to deal with the format first...
- --
============================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,           (217) 351-8250 x2365 = 
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL       dmckinne@csci.csc.com =
= Winter War XXIV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 14-16, 1997 =
= Official Kibitzer and Archivist for Digest Group Publications            =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org       (217) 469-9917 = 
============================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 17:42:53 -0500 (EST)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: "Banked" (Long-Term) XP's for T4 [Variant]

In T4, XP's must be spent immediately; they cannot be saved and
accumulated.  I would suggest that certain specially-earned XP's could be
saved and amassed.  I would call these "banked" XP's.  They would be spent
to increase a character's attributes or to allow a character to purchase a
new non-default skill.  

(Attributes):

A character could pursue a regimen of physical exercise to improve one of
his physical attributes (Str, Dex, or End); he could instead pursue a
regimen of mental exercise for Int or Edu, or a regimen of "social
exercise" (read, "conspicuous flaunting of wealth") for Soc.  This program
would be run on a week-by-week basis (as opposed to the month-by-month
basis stated in the book).  The PC would spend a number of weeks equal to
the attribute's current value before he begins to earn any "banked" XP's
for the attribute.  For each week thereafter, the PC has a chance to earn
*one* (1) XP specifically for *that* attribute being improved; this would
be a Difficult test of Athletics (for a physical exercise program),
Instruction (for a mental exercise program), or Carousing (for a "social 
exercise" program).  If the PC skips a week, the difficulty of next week's
test would be increased one level.  This penalty would be cumulative; if
the difficulty ever passed "Impossible", the PC would have to start over
(but keep any XP's already earned) by spending another period of one week
per point of the current value of the attribute.  Assuming the difficulty
doesn't pass "Impossible", each time he successfully makes this skill
check (and gets an XP), the level of difficulty will drop by one level
until it returns to the base level of difficulty ("Difficult").  
    Once the PC has accumulated a number of "banked" XP's equal to the
current value of the attribute, he may spend them (all of them) for a roll
of 1D, which is then compared to the attribute's current value (as with
improving skills).  Instead, he may continue to earn XP's so as to
increase his chance of success with the die roll (also as per skill
improvement).  
    (Example): A character with an Endurance of 7 begins a physical
exercise program to improve his stamina and health.  For the first seven
weeks, he earns no "banked" XP's.  Starting with the eighth week, if he
passes a Difficult test of Athletics, he earns one XP *specifically* for
his End.  Let's assume that some time later, as a result of an adventure,
he winds up in the hospital for two weeks.  When he resumes his exercise
program (after being discharged from the hospital), his skill check is
now "Staggering" instead of merely "Difficult".  Of course, he could
decide to spend another seven weeks of exercise without any skill check to
restore the level of difficulty that way.  

(New Non-Default Skills):

The entry for Instruction skill is somewhat vague (as opposed to the rules
on Instruction and New Skills in TNE) in that the length of time is
totally up to the GM's whim (no suggestions on which to base your
decisions at all).  I would suggest that a successful check of the
Instruction skill at the end of a week of classroom study or
"apprenticeship"-type on-the-job training result in the earning of *one*
(1) "banked" XP *specifically* for the skill being taught.  The PC would
need to accumulate ten (10) such XP's to buy the new skill at level-0. 
This number of XP's would be halved (down to five [5]) if the character
has a number of other skills that are closely related to the skill being
learned (say, four or more levels total).  This number of XP's would be
doubled (to 20) if the character had a complete lack of related other
skills.  
    (Example): The crew of a trader is teaching Astrogation to the new
kid.  Astrogation probably involves heavy use of Computer and Physics
skills.  If the new kid had Computer-3 and Physics-1 (four levels total),
he should need only five (5) XP's.  On the other hand, if he had
Computer-0 and no Physics skill, he should pay 20 XP's for Astrogation. 
Otherwise, he should pay the regular price of ten (10) XP's.  Once he buys
the skill (Astrogation-0), he would then treat it as any other "default"
skill (he could use JOT for it; he can buy it at level-1 for two [regular]
XP's; etc.).  

(Purpose):
This suggested variant will result in the players having more control over
the "growth" of their characters.  It will also make attribute improvement
and the acquisition of non-default skills more in line with the theory
behind career generation (that the characters were working while they were
earning their skills and attribute modifications; they were not just
"chained to a desk", like the existing rule for getting new skills
demands).  

I would appreciate your comments.  

Thanks.  

Franklin  (fcain@sct.edu)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 97 17:50:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T96#814] Size in the sky

Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp> hath scriven...

T::>I have a couple of questions:

T::>I saw in the book World-Building (Gillett, S.) that the size of a planet (or
 ::>whatever) in the sky can be calculated as:

T::>size in degrees = 57.3 * diameter of object / distance

T::>However, the book states that this calculation is inaccurate for results
 ::>over 20 degrees, and trig becomes necessary, and it doesn't give the
 ::>formula.  The planet I'm designing is tidally locked to it's gas giant
 ::>primary, and the result I get with the above formula is over 28 degrees.
 ::> What is the formula I need?

 This is called the "small angle approximation".  It works
 primarily because sin x and tan x are within epsilon of each
 other for small x.  Note that the multiplication by 57.3 is to
 convert radians to degrees.  I'll discuss my work below in
 radians; just remember to do the multiplication by 57.3 at the
 end if you want degrees.

 The derivation of the correct formula takes some diagrams that
 ASCII isn't suitable for, but which I was able to accomplish
 fairly easily on paper.  Skip the next few paragraphs if they
 stop making sense.  The critical info is marked with "|" down
 the right margin.

 To make the calculation correctly, you actually need the
 distance not to the pole of the planet you are viewing, but to
 the limb, or edge of the image.  For small planets, or planets
 at great distance, these are close enough together when
 compared to the distance to the planet's center that you can
 ignore the difference.  This is where the small-angle
 approximation comes in, and is quite useful.

 When the difference becomes significant, you have to base your
 measurements on the limb rather than the pole.  Unfortunately,
 you only have the distance to the center of the planet.  So,
 you have to derive the limb distance.

 If you diagram it out, you will see that the line from the
 center of the planet to the limb of your observation is
 perpendicular to the line from you to the limb of your
 observation.  (The latter is a tangent to the planet; radii are
 always perpendicular to tangents at the point where the
 tangent, circumference, and radius all meet.)  This makes
 things easy now, because you know the distance from you to the
 other planet, and you know the radius of the other planet.  By
 squaring both and taking the difference, you know the square of
 the distance to the limb, and by taking the square root of
 that, you know the distance.  Now, there is a right triangle
 formed by the distance to the other planet (d), the radius of
 the other planet (r), and the distance to the limb
 (sqrt(d^2-r^2)).  It turns out that the distance to the limb,
 when divided by d, gives you the cosine of _half_ the angle
 that the planet subtends.  Simply take the arc cosine of that
 number, and double the result to get the subtended angle in
 radians.  So, this is a better approximation for large angles:
             ___________
        -1 \/ d^2 - r^2           d=distance to target planet  |
 2 * cos   -------------          r=target planet radius       |
                 d                                             |
                                                               |
 It's correct if you're at the center of your planet.          |
 Unfortunately, if you have to use this formula, you probably  |
 need to take your own position on your planet into account.   |
                                                               |
 Now, this is where it gets hairy.  You need to know your      |
 latitude (L), the target planet's declination (D), and your   |
 planet's radius (R).  I don't think I can explain it without  |
 resorting to a diagram that simply can't be done in ASCII, so |
 I'll skip the derivation, and simply tell you that instead of |
 using "d" in the above formula, you need to use               |
   __________________________________                          |
 \/ (d-R*cos(L-D))^2 - (R*sin(L-D))^2     d is center-to-center|
                                            distance to target |
                                            (same as before)   |
                                                               |
 for both occurrences of d in the first formula.  This formula |
 is correct, and as accurate as your figures for the indicated |
 variables.                                                    |

 I think you'd better plug this into your programmable
 calculator, or spreadsheet program.  It's not what I would
 consider pencil-and-paper math; the derivation certainly
 wasn't, even though I did it that way.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Ow!  I think I sprained my brain!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 97 17:50:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T96#815] Ship Accommodations

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) hath scriven...
T::>OTOH, it's quite possible that people will have a more Japanese attitude
 ::>toward their sleeping spaces a few thousand years from now. If that's true,
 ::>and we have gravity control, then even a half ton will be plenty for the
 ::>sleeping compartment...walk into a stand-up "closet", turn on zero-g, and
 ::>go to sleep.  <g> You might have your storage in the same space, or down in
 ::>the hole.  The "facilities" would be down the corridor.  Most living space
 ::>would be in commons areas.

 Well, I tend to be a bit more conventional, in the Western
 sense.  The big problem I have with common freshers is what I'd
 said in my previous post - Joe Shlabotnick (Joe Bftsplk is his
 cousin) is _not_ going to want to go digging for a robe (to be
 "decent" - he sleeps raw) at 0300, and then find that there's a
 line out by the freshers.  Private, or at worst, shared (2
 cabins, one fresher) freshers are sort of a must.  And even
 shared is IMO going to reduce the price that the line can
 command for the cabin, all else being equal.

T::>Still, I tend to design ships with more conventual quarters. <g>

T::>>  ...the typical cabin on a cruise ship...is 150-200 square feet
 ::>>  floor space, including the 'fresher (shower, sink, toilet).

T::>Those would be the equivalent of Large Staterooms:  4m x 4m, about 13ft x
 ::>13ft.  That's plenty of space for 2 or 3 people.  On ships (star or
 ::>otherwise), I expect the cabins to be somewhat smaller than that.
 ::>Passengers and Crew will spend most of their time outside their rooms in
 ::>commons or work areas.

 But that's just it - the figure I gave was the actual size for
 current seagoing ships.  Certainly these can be double
 occupancy - but there _aren't_ any smaller.  When you look at
 the QE2, you'll see _larger_, though.

T::>I have 4 passenger levels:

T::>1st Class - luxury accommodations, 6 to 8 tons of space, 1/2ton
 ::>            baggage.

 Yes, this would be OK for high passage.

T::>2nd Class - standard accommodations, 4 to 6 tons of space, 1/4ton
 ::>            baggage.

T::>3rd Class - modest accommodations, 2 to 4 tons of space, 1/8ton
 ::>            baggage.

 The 4td figure is the lowest I'd go for either of these as Mid
 passage, especially if I have to take out up to 50% of this
 allocation for public areas and freshers.

T::>4th Class - cold passage, 1 ton of space, 1/8ton of baggage.

T::>I've designed standard deckplans for several types of quarters:

T::>SINGLE CABIN - 2.5x3m (1.875dt), is very workable for a single 2nd class
 ::>passenger or junior Officer.  The room is cramped, but the resident would
 ::>spend less time there than at work stations or in commons areas.  It
 ::>includes a fold down twin bed on one wall.  On the wall at the foot of the
 ::>bed is a wall terminal for entertainment and/or work.  When the bed is up,
 ::>a table can be folded down just below the terminal, exposing a data entry
 ::>area.  There is a folding chair in the room.  The room has a small
 ::>closet/storage space (ship rules on lockability).  There is also room for a
 ::>fold down (or recessed) mini sink and toilet.  A communal Fresher is down
 ::>the corridor.

 Again, we have the common fresher problem.  If you're booking
 passage on a ship that is primarily in the cargo transport
 business, _maybe_ this is acceptable.  For a designed passenger
 ship, I wouldn't find this acceptable.  It's also just
 marginally below what the rules (which I have been interpreting
 as Imperial minima) would permit for a mid passenger.

T::>SMALL STATEROOM - 3x3m (2.25dt), is a slightly larger version of the Cabin.
 ::> A double bed that folds out from a small sofa makes this the cabin of
 ::>choice for 1st class passengers on smaller ships, 2nd class frugal couples
 ::>on larger ships, or ship's Officers.

 Again, the common fresher problem rears its head.  It's legal
 in my Imperium, barely, but it wouldn't be a high seller.  It
 makes a _very_ nice _single_ room, with a twin bed, however.
 Much like the nice rooms the Resident Assistants got in the
 colleges I have attended.

T::>PAIRED CABINS - 6x3m (4.5dt, 2.25/cabin) A pair of Cabins share a small
 ::>Fresher located between them.  The accommodations of each cabin are similar
 ::>to the Single Cabin.  This arrangement is very acceptable for higher ranked
 ::>crew quarters, or for 2nd or 3rd class passengers.

 This is better than the single cabin, as the fresher problem is
 pretty much alleviated.  I could accept this as mid passage off
 the Mains.  I'll admit to having had two people, two desks and
 chairs, and two closets in something not much bigger than one
 of these cabins.  But see my comment about college RAs above.

T::>PRIVATE BUNKS - 2x2.5m (1.25dt) Smaller version of the Single Cabin, with a
 ::>chest (rather than a closet) for storage.  These rooms are for 3rd class
 ::>passengers and crew.

 No. This is just plain too small.  My Imperium's regulations
 wouldn't allow paying passengers to be put in one of these (2dt
 minimum for mid passage).  Single dorm rooms in every college
 I've attended have been bigger than this.

T::>LARGE STATEROOM - 6x3 (4.5dt) These suites include a fully
 ::>functional private fresher.  They feature a queen sized bed, a pair of
 ::>comfortable chairs, entertainment and work terminal, a dressing table and
 ::>closet space.  These luxury suites are reserved for 1st class passengers
 ::>and high ranking Officers.

 Yes. This would be minimally acceptable as high passage off the
 mains; up the opulence and it might become a _single_ high
 passage on the mains.  Push it to 6td and it would be
 acceptable as high passage, single or double, on all but the
 most luxurious of luxury liners - the equivalent of 1st Class
 on the QE2, for example.

T::>Most of the space is in the commons areas.  You need to think about such
 ::>things as Galleys, Wardrooms, Dining Halls, Lounges, Game Rooms,
 ::>Gym/workout Rooms, Conference Rooms, Sickbays, etc, etc, etc!

 Yes, I realize that - but what this exercise has shown me is
 that the rules as written are very nice for designing your
 military ship, which is attack/defense oriented, or your free
 and far traders, which are cargo-oriented - but not for
 designing passenger-oriented ships.  I suspect that the same
 problems would show up in the yacht and lab ships as well.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  The [human] species is capable of much affection.

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jan 97 10:33:25 +0000
From: James.Dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au
Subject: Re: Sunbane sectors

     On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Andrew Vallance asked:
     
     >Does anybody know where I might get hold of the old
     >DPG sectors which were on the Sunbane ftp site?
     
     From the FAQ:
     
     5.3 Is there a list of all star systems in the Imperium?
     
     Well, yes, there is. Have a look at 
     ftp://elendor.sbs.nau.edu/pub/rpg/traveller/sectors . This is where 
     the Digest Group Publications data which was originally on Genie is 
     stored. It is dated 1116 i.e. at the eve of the rebellion. It isn't 
     fully detailed, but it is a start. From the comments coming out of 
     Imperium Games, it isn't canon any longer either, so later products 
     may invalidate it in the same way that the T4 rule book redefined the 
     Sylea home subsector. 
     
     Another, more interactive option is the subsector viewer written by 
     Ethan Henry in Java which is available at 
     http://www2.magmacom.com/_ehenry/traveller/ in the US, or 
     http://deceased.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin/traveller in Europe. The 
     european site has all 35 DGP subsectors online. 
     
     
     BTW: The FAQ is located at 
     http://www.spirit.com.au/_jamesd/tml-faq.html. The tilde character 
     before jamesd might by mangled by my mailer, so you may have to use 
     you imagination! Just in case: there is also a tilde character in 
     front of ehenry in the Java subsector viewer address above.
     
     James Dempsey
     jamesd@spirit.com.au

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:41:14 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: SSDS & QSDS Missing...

At 02:50 PM 1/7/97 +0000, you wrote:
><snip>
>FF&S owners, designers, official numbers for an acceleration
>couch? Not a g-tank, as I already have inertial comps.
>And not a bunk, as I don't want my crew to sleep, I want
>them to fly the ship.
>
>Or are small craft standing room only?
>
>Ethan
>ehenry@magma.ca
>

FF&S, pg 14: one standard worksation (7 m^3) ...

    , pg 47: work & crew stations. Basically 14 m^3 on the bridge, 7 m^3
most else where, with a 'cramped' crew station of 2.5 m^3 or 'open' crew
station of 3.5 m^3. I think the last two describe things like fighter
cockpits or turrets.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:22:02 +0000
From: "Tim Reynolds" <tim@premier1.premier.net>
Subject: Founder 5000

                        Founder 5000

Tons: 5000              Volume 70,000                   Cost 627.403
Mcr Crew: 23                Passengers High/Medium: 0       Passengers
Low: 0 Cargo: 4060             Controls: Civ ADV/Bridge        Tech
Level: 12

Size Rating: 9                                          1 Jump Rating
                                                        1 G Rating 1
                                                        Power Rating
                                                      700 Fule Rating
                                                       4A 4P 0J Sensor
                                                       Rating
                                                        22 Structure 

The Founder 5000 is design to move large carges over protroled
intersteller shipping lanes.  As such it has been designed with no
Weapons or Armour because they take up needed cargo space.  Though it
can be used with out a Lightering companin ship it is not ment to be
thus the low G rating.  The ship relies on the advance controls to
reduce the crew to 23 (3 Command 2 Manuver 4 Electronics 5 Maintance 9
Enginnering). Though the ship has a triple redunet powersystem.  Even
if the ship loses 2 of its power sources the life support is still
active.  It carries an optional 2 Launch on docking rings. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 20:29:09 +0000
From: "Tim Reynolds" <tim@premier1.premier.net>
Subject: Pres. Release From Founder Ship Work

Pres. Release From Founder Ship Works

Yesterday in a Pres. release by X Tech Industries the following
statement was made by the Commander, concerning a contract put forth
by the government wishing  a new long range exploration ship,

Quote from the Commander: "The gauntlet has been cast, may the best
design achieve his majesty's wishes!"

Though, Founder Ship Workers, originally choice not to develop such a
ship
 Founder Ship Workers can not and will not let this challenge go with
out a response.  There for the company has directed its ship design
team to develop such a ship.  Founder Ship Works is sure that his
Majesty will in the end choice the best  design  for the Imperium and
Founder Ship Works will work closely with the government to insure
that such a ship will be produced.

Founder Ship Works was officially started on Day One (Holiday) of the
First Year of the Imperium. Founder Ship Works specializes in large
cargo ships for both interstellar and system use.  It was founded by
several Interstellar companies  in order to use the newest technology
that the New Imperium has to offer.  For further information contact 
Jenny Horis PR  for Founder Ship Works

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 97 22:06:02 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Stars, colours and so on

On 01/07/97 at 06:19 PM,  Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
said:

>   
>      I seem to remember that stars go in this sequence: 
>      O B A F G K M  (various mnemonics, mostly obscene) 
>     

Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me?  I suppose you *could* call that obscene. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 97 22:19:30 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEBSITE

On 01/07/97 at 05:14 PM,  David Bullock <davidbullock@tech-center.com>
said:

> We are working with Matt Machtan and the various providers to move the
> "www.imperiumgames.com" address to point to the new page, however, until
> the site address is shifted, the new address is:

> 	http://www.opx.com/imperiumgames

You've still got a problem.

I just tried the new address and got a 404 error.  You sure the address is
right?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jan 97 14:47:25 +1100
From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Subject: Note On: News From Imperium Games

     Joe
     I've said this before but...
     
     I want the IG site to have a Traveller News Service! Starting at date 
     001-0000, and stepping forward in time at a rate of perhaps 1 game 
     year per (real-time) month or so. An 'official' news service is one of 
     the things I miss from the old issues of JTAS and Challenge, and 
     (cynically) it provides a simple way for IG to maintain interest in 
     their product line. 
     
     Perhaps eventually there could be one TNS per Milieu, perhaps like so: 
     
     Milieu Zero: starting 001-0000
     Pacification Campaigns: starting 001-0076
     Vargr Campaigns: blah
     Aslan Border Wars: blah
     Civil War: blah
     Psionics Suppressions: blah
     ....
     Classic Era: starting 001-1105
     Rebellion Era: starting 001-1116
     New Era: starting 001-1200
     
     IG might want to just reprint the old JTAS and Challenge TNS items for 
     Classic, Rebellion and New Eras - a way of keeping the old die-hards 
     at least partially on board with little effort. 
     
     I have also suggested that list members and other fans could write 
     news items (helps take the workload off IG); they could then be 
     filtered, vetted, edited etc. and then posted as 'official news'! 
     
     Another suggestion: IG could periodically post a few scenarios to 
     their web site, (maybe authored in the same way as the TNS items), as 
     a way of providing ongoing game support and rewarding those gamers 
     that keep in touch! 
     
     Comments and flames? Love 'em all. 
     Michael Barry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:04:28 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Starship V1 design spreadsheet available.

>        Starship V1 design spreadsheet is now available.

To cool, and it even works on my Macintosh!  Thanks, and great job.  Now
maybe I'll take some time and design some more ships.

			Zane

| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast          |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer            |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing   |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                      |

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:06:35 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEBSITE

>> 	http://www.opx.com/imperiumgames
>
>You've still got a problem.
>
>I just tried the new address and got a 404 error.  You sure the address is
>right?

I just tried it and it worked fine, it looks like a good start at redoing
thier site.

			Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast          |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer            |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing   |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                      |

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:56:44 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: "Banked" (Long-Term) XP's for T4 [Variant]

- ----------
> From: Franklin W. Cain <fcain@st6000.sct.edu>

> 
> In T4, XP's must be spent immediately; they cannot be saved and
> accumulated.  I would suggest that certain specially-earned XP's could be
> saved and amassed.  I would call these "banked" XP's.  They would be
spent
> to increase a character's attributes or to allow a character to purchase
a
> new non-default skill.  

This is a _very_ good idea, Franklin. 

<rules snipped>

I say that there should be a cieling on the improvement of physical
attributes: I like TNE's cieling of +2. 
> 
> (New Non-Default Skills):

I suggest that this approach NOT be used with JOT, this can become abusive
. . . but the basic idea is good. I'm going to use it :)
> 
> 
> (Purpose):
> This suggested variant will result in the players having more control
over
> the "growth" of their characters.  It will also make attribute
improvement
> and the acquisition of non-default skills more in line with the theory
> behind career generation (that the characters were working while they
were
> earning their skills and attribute modifications; they were not just
> "chained to a desk", like the existing rule for getting new skills
> demands).  
> 
> I would appreciate your comments.  
> 
> Thanks.  
> 
> Franklin  (fcain@sct.edu)
> 
> 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #819
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 8 1997     Volume 1996 : Number 820



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: "Plasma" questions
Re: Stars, colours and so on
Stars Data
Re: Vargr invasion of Corridor
Re: Starship V1 design spreadsheet available.
Re: Form FF&S to T4
Re: Stars, colours and so on
Re: Stars, colours and so on
Re: Stars, colours and so on
Re: Plasmas - adn other newbie's question (long)
Re: No discrepancy.
stars and heplar
Re: "Plasma" questions
RE: Size in the sky

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:08:55 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: "Plasma" questions

> 1- Heplar
> 
> As this propulsion device generates plasma (which has a relatively low
> density), it has a better efficiency than some non ionized gases. right?
> 
> What is the temperature of such a propulsor.

        HEPlaR thruster is basically a MPD thruster. The expellant
        is turned to plasma in order to accelerate it with electro-
        magnetic fields, and all energy used to ionize the expellant
        can usually to be considered as wasted.

        The temperature will be as low as possible, and the exhaust
        will likely to be "cool" plasma. (What is the minimum
        temperature of liquid hydrogen turned to plasma?)

        Note that if you examine the values given in FFS (HEPlaR power
        input and mass flow), a trivial calculation shows that the
        generated thrust should be only 10.1 kg, not 20 tons.

> You probably wouldn't want to be standing real close to one of those
> things, which is why so many of us thought HEPlaR on grav vehicles in
> TNE was a Bad Idea.

        True. At close range HEPlaR thruster resembles plasma welder or
        continuous fire plasma gun.

> 2- Plasma weapons. 
>
> High energy weapon uses a chemical detonation to heat H2 to plasma state in
> a magnetique bottle and frees it at high speed. The destructive agent is in
> this case the temperature of the "plasma bullet". As the plasma weapion are
> moved to fusion weapon, the temperature might be a least around 1,000,000 K.
> So what is the average mass of super heated plasma which is projected with
> small weapons? I assume that heavier weapon project more plasma mass.

        Plasma weapons were not documented well enough to give clear
        answers to any of those questions.

        Some of the FFS formulas assumed that plasma weapon was solely
        a kinetic energy weapon (all the energy released in one shot
        was used to calculate the recoil), but I would like to suggest
        that the plasma weapons are both kinetic and heat effect weapons.

        (Possibly 50/50 split between both energy types, assuming 6000
        m/s plasma stream velocity, kinetic damage as projectile weapon
        and heat damage as laser, using pilot laser to make a "hole" or
        "path" in atmosphere and releasing plasma stream along to this
        path... Brake. Cold shower.)

        If there is enough interest in this subject, I could make some
        calculations and design rule suggestions how these weapons might
        work. However the above text already contains too may assumptions
        and no real-world data.

> 3- Fusion rocket
>
> Simple : Why the fusion rocket is radioactive? I thought fusion create no
> radiations instead of fission

        Fusion rocket is basically a heat-effect rocket which uses
        fusion reactor to heat the expellant material and releases
        the expellant as exhaust jet. If the expellant is used as
        direct reactor coolant, the exhaust could be radioactive. If
        the reactor uses proper heat-exchanger, the exhaust will not
        be radioactive.

        (While I was studying Space Technology, I relieved some boredom
        by comparing real-world space propulsion systems and Traveller
        thrusters and made a Traveller FAQ on the subject. However I
        haven't been able to access the Beta list fo a long time, so I
        dropped the project.)


        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:27:24 +0000
From: Dhivael <nwhitehe@mic.dundee.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Stars, colours and so on

>>      I seem to remember that stars go in this sequence:
>>      O B A F G K M  (various mnemonics, mostly obscene)
>>
>
>Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me?  I suppose you *could* call that obscene. <g>

Or my personal preferred mnomonic:

  Oh Be A Fellow, Go Kill Mike (Right Now. Splat!)

which not only covers the R, N and S oddball types, but is rather more
Travelleresque. :)

Nik.

****************************************************************************
                         More deadly than the Male.
           Dr. Nik Whitehead - Seeker of the Lost Island of Munga
                http://www.mcs.dundee.ac.uk:8080/~nwhitehe/
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:43:22 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Stars Data

As i said before, I've checked some information about Stars (From the
Hertzsprung-Russel diagram)

Spectral types:

Des   Temp(K)  Spectral rays
0     25000+     He(ion)
B     11000+     He, Si(ion) and O (ion)
A      7500+     H
F      6000+     H, Ca(ion) and Fe(ion)
G      5000+     Ca(ion), CH, Metals
K      3500+     Metals and CH
M      3500-     Metal and oxydes of titanium

This is a table i've found discribs the relative mass and radius (Sun is
tyhe reference)
        Mass  (Msun)     Radius (Rsun)   Surface Temp (kK)
Lum    V    III    I     V   III   I      V   III    I
B0    17.5  20    25    7.4  15   30     31    29   26
B5     5.9   7    20    3.9   8   50     15.4  15   13.6
A0     2.9   4    16    2.4   5   60     9.5   10   9.7 
GO     1.1   1    10    1.1   6  120      6    5.8  5.6
K0     0.8  1.1   13    0.9  15  200     5.3   4.7  4.4
M0     0.5  1.2   13    0.6  40  500     3.8   3.8  3.6


Life of Class V stars

This table describe the caracteristics of Type V stars just after the H burn
start.

M(Msun) L(Lsun)  T(K) M/V(g/cm3) Tin(10^6K) R(Rsun) Life span(10^6years)
0.8       0.25   4900    84        11.4      0.68      20000
1         0.77   5700    90        13.5      0.88      10000
1.5       5.2    7300    87        18.5      1.43       1800
2        16.9    9200    67        20.9      1.60        800
5        515    17000    20        26.8      2.67         78
9       3900    23900    10        30.5      3.64         24
15     19200    31100    6.3       34.3      4.77         11
30    120000    40000    3.3       37.3      7.13         5.39

Sun is not in this state, It is just after (He acculmulation in the Kernel),
so it size is a little bigger (10% of increase)

Class V stars start burning H in the kernel (most of its life span) and
accumulates He. Radius is slowly increasing. He kernel contracts as radius
increase, H starts burning around the He kernel, R increase to 50 time the
initial radius (red giant). As internal temp is at 10^8K, He fusion in the
Kernel (Helium flash) and the size reduce (not a red giant). As He fusion
products (C, O...) are stable in the kernel, the star is again a red giant.
Finaly, the enveloppe quit the star and become a planetary nebula as the
kernel become a white dwarf.

Bye

- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 00:36:19 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Vargr invasion of Corridor

Well Steven Bonneville's post probably make this irrelevant,
but I like the discussion and there's always something to
learn.

At 16:01 7/01/1997 +0100, you wrote:
>Andrew Vallance writes:
>>Assuming the low to mid population worlds in Corridor are going to be 
>>relatively easy prey to the Vargr, it only leaves the high population 
>>worlds to worry about.

>I don't agree with that assumption. The high-medium population worlds (ie. 
>population level 8) are also beyond the strength of the Vargr Corsairs. You 
>still need Vargr governments to take them.

Very true you would. This is how I'd see things going:
First - Vargr corsairs have always raided Corridor, so when the
   fleets up and leave they keep raiding and find the fleets are gone.
Second - With the fleets gone, corsair activity steps up meeting
   more success (note the corsairs only attack the low pop worlds)
Third - One of the Vargr interstellar gov'ts over the border decides
   to take a risk and invade (why? large Vargr gov'ts are unstable
   and their leaders need ***lots*** of charisma, this is a gamble
   on getting charisma).
Fourth - This pays off, more gov'ts follow, more sucess (note a
   few Vargr sucesses can offset a disproportonate amount of
   other Vargr's failures), more invasions etc.
How fast could this happen? I'm not sure, looking at the info
published on the Vargr I'd guess pretty darn quickly.

>>That leaves nine high 
>>population worlds. A quick look at Knouth (atmos C), Mikesh (atmos B), 
>>Durima (Hydro 0) and Plunge (hydro 0). None of these worlds have any chance 
>>of feeding themselves, blockade them and they have to surrender.

>Why? You don't think that any high-population world would be dependent on
>importing things like food, air and water? The logistics of doing so is
>prohibitive. All of these worlds can feed themselves although they'd run 
>short on gourmet imports.

Just looking for plausable explainations :*). My guess (and it is just
a guess) is that these worlds didn't feed themselves (not couldn't,
just before the rebellion they just choose not to invest the resouces
on artifically creating an agircultural biosphere).

>>You can probably say the same for Shushaka (hydro 2) and Ashima (Atmos 4,
>>hydro 3, TL A); though Shushaka might hold out for a while. 

>Same argument.

Ashima is a fairly marginal chance for survival with it's low tech and
hostile biosphere

>>So that leaves just three worlds: Drayne (B6749C9-D, 8 billion), Kaasu 
>>(AA7A9CD-G, 9 billion) and Khukish (A77A989-F, 8 billion). 

>>Drayne: Hydro 4 its going to have a rough time surviving, things are going
>>to get unpleasant for the population. They see the worlds around them falling,
>>figure out which way the winds blowing, have no idea how long they are going 
>>to have to hold out; so they cut a deal and join a Vargr faction (not sure if
>>thats the right word) for protection.
>>Kaasu: Admittedly this is much harder to explain. They have high tech, what
>>on the face of it is a relatively friendly biosphere. However, they're right
>>next door to Shushaka, the atmospher is tainted and again they can see how 
>>things are going. It is not too unreasonable for this world to fall, I think.

>I have to disagree. They might take the opportunity to go independent and
>carve out their own little pocket empires instead of cleaving to their
>allegiance to the Imperium, but joining a Vargr Corsair alliance is a very
>unlikely thing to do. Though they might allow some Vargr to join _them_, if
>they decided to go independent.

You've got the worlds around you falling left right and centre;
The Imperium is ripping itself apart, the two human states which
could help you have given up (for whatever reason), a sizable
interstellar Vargr state offers you protection and some degree of
autonomy. I'd say it plausable.

>>Khukish: Allegiance = Non-aligned, not 'Independent Vargr' but 'Non-aligned'.
>>this world has not fallen.

>True. But neither have they reestablished peace and trade with their close
>neighbours despite having had three years to build up their navy.

Because three years is not enough time. Not only do you have
to build (or reactivate) the ships, but you have to find crews for
them, train the crews and then familarise the crews with their
ships. I'd say four years minimum to do that. I know the obvious
reply is "reservists", but reserves take time to activate, still need
retraining and your not going to do better than double you standing
forces with reseves. Reserves provide the cadre's to build your
new force around.

>>I have other Ideas regarding this, like how much of the losses suffered
>>during the Fifth Frontier War had the Domain of Deneb replaced? 

>Well, since it is sound sense to reactivate mothballed ships before beginning
>new construction (1/10th the time and 1/10th the cost) and since Trin is still
>reactivating ships in 1123 (See _Arrival Vengeance_), it is most likely that
>the Domain has as many ships laid up as their budget allows. If we assume that
>the Imperial worlds use 3% of GNP in peacetime and 15% in wartime, the moth-
>balled navy could be 8 times as large as the peacetime navy.

That would seem make sense wouldn't it? but would it happen.
Look at the US navy. After the First and Second World Wars they
had massive numbers of mothballed ships. Why? because
during the Wars they built far far more than they needed in
peace, so they stored them. Eventually they got scrapped
(the last of the Second World War ones went in the late 80's)
Did they get replaced? No. The USN is now deactivating the
bulk of its intial post war build (50's and 60's), are these ships
going into reserve? No. Why not? They're worn out, they're
obsolete (the war built ships were not at the time). Of the
six Forrestral and Kitty Hawk class carriers being
decommisioned now or in the very near future only one is going
into reserve! These ships would be perfectly servicable in a war.
The thirteen cruisers? none are going into reserve, the frigates
and destroyers? maybe twenty. The worlds other major navies
(RN, Russia, France, Canada etc) are even worse. At best the
reserve fleet is going to be 20% to 50% of the peacetime fleet.
Why? Navies don't build ships just to put them in reserve. The
FFW was not big enough or long enough (it only lasted two and
a half years) to have prompted the kind of building program
that would give a huge reserve.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
This is air traffic contol
All our operators are busy at the moment
So please land your plane after the tone
Beeeeeeeeepp.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:54:42 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Starship V1 design spreadsheet available.

At 10:52 07/01/1997 +0200, you wrote:
>        Starship V1 design spreadsheet is now available.
>        ...

Hey, great. What a huge job...

Using FFS, i've noticed three things

1- The jump drive volume depends on jump perf (you've taken the wrong cell
(G-rating))

2- The formula for the jump fuel is in FFS    
              JD volume*5 
      for a max jump. In you sheet it seems to be different.

3- The workstation for the turret and barbette are already installed in the
component. So you don't have to count them for the gunners. 

Bye
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:50:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Form FF&S to T4

In mail, marz@hotstar.net writes:

> You only need to have the conversion chart from the last page of
> Starships (I am the master of converting from game system to game
> system, just for a laugh I converted DC Heroes stats for Superman to
> T4 Starship Combat, wow can he kick ass)

Go ahead and post them. I'm sure some of us are twisted enough to find
a way to use them. :-)

BTW, which superman is this? The one from the mid 70s who could move
planets? The one from the 80s, who was still pretty powerful, but
wasn't up to moving planets? The Brunner rewrite who can't even fly
FTL? Or the current one?

As far as stealing ideas from comics, I find that works better in
FRPGs.  We were able to drop in Green Lantern (a pair of artifacts),
The Incredible Hulk (a mage/alchemist who made this slight goof :-),
and many others.

For SFRPGs, it's more fun stealing things from 30s, 40s & 50s SF. For
instance, the Lensman and Skylark series. Or some of John W. Campbell's
stuff. 

Picture your typical players making contact with a civilization that
has Lensmen. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:24:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stars, colours and so on

In mail you write:

> I don't have the precise data in the mind but :
>
>   Type  Color    Surface Temp   Specter Ray     
>     0  Blue       35000 K       He *
>     B  Blue                     H  * 
>     A  Green      10000 K       H+ *
>     F  Green                    
>     G  Yellow      5000 K       Hydrocarbons
>     K  Orange                   Heavy metals
>     M  Red         2500 K       Metal Oxydes 

Types A and F are *white*, not green. O and B are "bluewhite".
Remember, this is black body radiation, so it's a spread out over a
*lot* of wavelengths, just distributed on a curve.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:28:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stars, colours and so on

In mail you write:

>>ecosphere-
>>earth temperature or earth light? the IR will make it hot if you go for
>>the same brightness:
>
> Why is that? Luminosity is in bolometric so integrated over all
> wavelengths. That is; lum 1 would make for same temp no matter what
> wavelength(?)

To get the same *visual* brightness, you'll need to be closer.
Remember, the radiation is spread out over a curve. The peak wavelength
shifts with the temperature. We are evolved so that our eyes are most
sensitive to the "yellow-green" part of the spectrum. This means that
our visual sensitivity is centered around the peak in the radiation
given off by the sun (a G type star).

A type M star is much cooler, and the peak is in the red, if not clear
down in the IR. So when you have the same amount of energy (area under
the curve) in the visible portion of the spectrum, you'll have much
*more* energy in the IR.

This is easy to show with diagrams, but hard to describe without them.
But it *is* true. 

Just remember that for people "brightness" mean "visible spectrum". But
for *heat* you have to count visible *plus* IR, plus any UV that can
penetrate. And the balance is different for different spectral types.

> Greenhouse effect will make the planet cooler though. Greenhouse on earth
> works as visible light goes through greenhouse gasses, heats ground and
> bounces back as IR which greenhouse gasses trap. A planet with same gasses
> would trap IR to the outside instead(?)

Depends. The part of the atmosphere that does the absorbing is
important. If it's water vapor, which is a major greenhouse gas and
tends to be restricted to the *lower* atmosphere, then you are heating
the air, so it doesn't help.

Remember, the greenhouse gases *absorb* the IR, not *reflect* it!

>>earth temperature - it'll be dim. if it's using chlorophyll/imported
>>stock, expect large leaves. pictures of stuff at the ground of forests and
>>jungles would be about right. such plants would be useful anywhere else,
>>colonising Mars type planets.
>
> Doesn't chlorofyll require certain minimum energy photons to work? If soo
> then it would be hard to make normal plants grow on such a planet.

Chlorophyll is green because it absorbs (and uses!) the *red* portion
of the spectrum, leaving only yellow, blue, and green to reflect. It
won't do very well with long wave IR, but it may be able to use some
shortwave IR, as well as the plentiful red.

Native plants will tend reflect even a good part of the red as well as
the longer wavelengths. I'm not certain, but I think that'd make the
leaves look almost white to us. This is assuming that there's a
compound that can work well with IR. If not, then they'll use
chlorphyll or something similar. 

> Also note that M stars tend to be very old and their planets
> therefore lacking in heavy elements necessary for life.

True enough. But M stars of *similar* ages to Sol (give or take a
billion years) *will* have the heavy elements. Planets without them
will be *really* different. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:49:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stars, colours and so on

In mail you write:

>      be in the closest orbit, 0.2AU distance. Would this have adverse 
>      effects eg from solar flares, UV radiation, tidal effects and the 
>      like, or is an M0V just too damn boring for anything of the sort? 

Some type M dwarfs are pretty boring. Others emit enough radiation at
various odd wavelengths that they are thought to be *extremely* active
flare stars!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 23:00:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Plasmas - adn other newbie's question (long)

In mail you write:

> The situation if this tore in not hasard, it is heavily linked to the
> presence of Io right iniside it. Io is mainly frozen sulfures (i think) with
> a groud temperature around 150K. What i don't understand is why the plasma
> tore hasn't heaten the Io athmosphere.

It *is* Io's atmosphere. Io is extremely volcanic and the gases from
eruptions easily reach orbital velocity and even escape velocity.
That's what forms the torus. Think of it as being Io's ionisphere
wrapped around Jupiter because of the orbit.

It's a lot thinner than the lower atmosphere so the heating is minimal.
Instead think of it as Io "sweeping up" the gases in front of it as it
orbits. 

> Obviously, there is a very low density of plasma in this tore. But what
> would be the effect of a starship crossig this kind of plasma?

Not much. It makes more sense to treat it as a region of high particle
*radiation* (like Earth's Van Allen belts, only worse). High energy
electrons are the main hazard as it's not *too* likely that the buclei
would be at high energies.

> ---- TNE questions
>
> 1- Heplar
>
> As this propulsion device generates plasma (which has a relatively low
> density), it has a better efficiency than some non ionized gases. right?

Plasma densities can be pretty high. The sun is almost entirely plasma
from the visible surface to the core. And at the core, that plasma is a
lot denser than *water*.

The efficiency is due to the *temperature* (and possible to partial
fusion of the fuel).

Not that there are "plasma arc" torches used for some types of high
temp welding, cutting, and coating work. They use plasmas that are
dense enough to displace air...

> What is the temperature of such a propulsor. There is a picture in TNE, of a
> Scout/courier flying just over the sea. The waves behind it seems to be
> vaporised by the ship, indicating a very high temperature, assuming that the
> ship flies at average speed (2000 kph).

At 2000 kph, the ship will leave one hell of a wake just from the shock
cone! As it is travelling supersonic, it is generating a conical shock
front (the angle of the cone is determined by the ratio of the ship's
speed to the speed of sound). 

At that sort of speed a shock cone involves pressure differences high
enough to cause major *structural damage* to buildings. The US Air
Force academy had to replace twisted *I-beams* in some of the
dormitories when someone in a t-34 trainer made a mach 1.5 pass too low.

So there will be a parabolic "wake" where the shock cone meets the
surface of the water.

The exhaust temp is determinable from the following...

Multiply the specific Impulse by 9.8 m/s^2 to get the exhaust
velocity. This plus the average molecular weight of the exhaust, and
the efficiency of the nozzle will let you calculate the temperature of
the exhaust.

But you also need to consider that the thrust divided by the specific
impulse gives the fuel flow rate (in mass units per second). 

So take the exhaust temp and figure out *how much* mass at that temp is
being ejected every second. That'll give you an idea of how much *heat*
can be transferred. And the exhaust velocity also gives you some idea
as to how fast the exhaust "spreads" (the higher the velocity, the
longer it takes).

> Is this a correct interpretation? what are the effect on ground, especially
> around cities and starports.

Me, I say that between the high velocity and high temp, along with the
low mass flow, you get the effect of a very long narrow jet that will
burn through anything that gets in the way. 

For a horizontal takeoff or landing craft, this just means you make
sure that there's nothing you care about, or a whole bunch of rock,
gravel and dirt behind you when you takeoff and at the start of your
landing. 

For vertical takeoff or landing it's a bit different.

So on the bare rock of an un-improved port, it'll splash a bit at first
as you approach, causing the rock surface to fuse over a circular area
centered on the jet. As you get closer it should be concentrating more
of the jet on the center, and starting to vaporise the rock, and then
burn a hole into it. So assuming you come straight down, you'd have a
glazed area centered on each jet, with a hole in the middle. The
glazing around the edges would be badly cracked as it cooled.

Your ship's landing legs would be arranged to avoid "splashback" from
the ground. So you could lower the ramp pretty quickly. Or launch an
air raft immediately.

At more advanced port installations, there'd be "blast pit" to avoid
having the exhaust hit anything until it had a chance to cool a bit.
Where water is cheap, they'll use some sort of water deluge system in
the pit to help absorb the heat and prevent damage to the lining. In
other places they may just dump lots of sand into the pit and let it
take the damage.

> 3- Fusion rocket
>
> Simple : Why the fusion rocket is radiactive? I thought fusion create no
> radiations instead of fission

Nope. The easier to accomplish types of fusion tend to produce a lot of
extra neutrons. And even if they don't, the exhaust consists of high
velocity electrons, protons (hydrogen nuclei), deuterium,
tritium Helium-3 and helium-4 nuclei.  So it sort of counts as a badly
focused particle beam...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 23:36:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: No discrepancy.

In mail you write:

> Dedly@aol.com writes:
>> With all the talk about the Scout Service interdicting on behalf of
>> low TL worlds & trading in general w low TL worlds, I began to
>> wonder about Sorel.  It's a TL1 world right next door to Glisten
>> (TL15). My old Spinward Marches supplement does not give Sorel an A
>> or R rating.  Why not? I would think that this would be a prime
>> example for interdiction.

> It's usual for the Scouts to interdict primitive planets for their
> protection, but that's only a rule of thumb. Besides, the rules are
> administered by people, and people sometimes makes mistakes (or are
> bribed) I don't know why Sorel is not interdicted; perhaps its
> society is of the rare kind that in the opinion of some Scout Survey
> commander is stable enough to survive contact; perhaps some event
> forced the contact and presented the Scouts with a fait accompli.
> Perhaps the whole culture is nomadic. However, even though Sorel is
> in contact with interstellar society it could still (propably is) be
> under import restrictions. An Interdiction includes an embargo, of
> course, but the reverse is not true.

Well, a lot depends on the population and goverment codes. After all,
it could be a bunch of Buddhists who consider the world to be an
illusion and have no desire for material goods.

More to the point, at such low tech levels, if the population is low,
small amounts of trade won't really hurt anything. The traded items
will either be equivalent to local items, if of unknown materials
(pots, pans, etc). Or they will be "magic" (flashlights, radios,
medicines). 

"Magic" fits into a low tech society without hurting anything. So what
if a few people have "magic lights" that they got by trading with the
"sky people". Does that *change* the culture or the technology? Nope.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 97 13:44 GMT
From: walker@esc.cam.ac.uk (Greg Walker)
Subject: stars and heplar

'shadow':
thank you for clarifying my bit about brightness.
I concede the point about white leaves. may help with the heat problem.

I read somewhere there is a minimum energy so I'm not sure about using the IR, but there are alo rumours that chlorophyll developed from an IR detector for deep sea organisms that live near 'Black Smokers'.

is there a biologist in the house?


on the point about HEPLaR drives, why not use ducted fans/(propellers?) instead? With a pocket fusion plant you have a year's range without refueling.

To get the same thrust the ducted unit might be expensive, but is safer than the plasma torch. So performance might drop, but once you're out in the country and away from other traffic, you can always kick in the afterburner.

Only vac to v.thin would need an alternative, and hydrogen might be awkward or restriced on these planets. 

it just doesn't have quite the same feel to it, for combat. 
Greg

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:59:31 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: "Plasma" questions

On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Steven Bonneville wrote:

> Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr> wrote:
> > 3- Fusion rocket
> >
> > Simple : Why the fusion rocket is radiactive? I thought fusion create no
> > radiations instead of fission
> 
> To get the performance that is reported, it turns out that the exhaust
> has to come off with absurdly dangerous relativistic velocities.  The
> particles coming off the back may as well be cosmic rays, for all the 
> kinetic energy they need to have.

Fusion creates excess neutrons (and hence neutron radiation).  The Fusion
setups around my area are in blockhouses of concrete.  The advantage of
Fusion over Fission is that Fusion does not create *persistant* radiation
or radioactive waste.  Emissions are only present when the reactor is
active, turn it off and its like turning off a lightbulb, no more
emissions.  

The high point of our safety briefing was the 'cold fusion' test rig they
set up at one point.  They set it up inside a concrete blockhouse to
isolate the expected neutron radiation.  Thing is it turns out that the
chemicals used are much more dangerous as caustic agents than any
emissions from that source are likely to be.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:48:47 +0900
From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Subject: RE: Size in the sky

Jeff replied:
 I think you'd better plug this into your programmable
 calculator, or spreadsheet program.  It's not what I would
 consider pencil-and-paper math; the derivation certainly
 wasn't, even though I did it that way.

Thank you!

Now another question, if you please:

The planet (moon) is orbiting the gas giant on the equatorial plane (with 0 
degrees tilt - perhaps because it is tidally locked - one orbit=1 day).  The 
gas giant has a 25 degree axial tilt.  This also helps with the sticky 
problem of having solar eclipses every day for a few hours, because the gas 
giant won't block the sun every day around noon.  Actually, it just reduces 
the frequency of eclipses.  I think I would get daily solar eclipses around 
the vernal and autumnal equinoxes (gas giant's), right?

How would I calculate when the eclipses would occur and for how long?

Thanks,

Armand

(By the way, I calculated that the gas giant would be 27.89 degrees wide in 
the sky of one hemisphere.  Thanks to everyone who offered their help with 
the math!)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #820
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 8 1997     Volume 1996 : Number 821



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Planet X Final Version 1.0 Website Now A
re: size and eclipses
Sorel
Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #819
Re: Starship V1 design spreadsheet available.
Re: Starship V1 design spreadsheet available.
Re: "Plasma" questions
Exhaust Velocity
Air Raft
Another Star Question
S.S.D.S. "Maneuver Drive" Question
Re: No discrepancy.
Traveller 4 CSC Computer Additions
Re: The FAQ for this Mailing List
Try these on for size
January Ship Design Contest
Re: January Ship Design Contest

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:46:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Planet X Final Version 1.0 Website Now A

>In Character mode on<
Imperial Message Database
Dateline 008-0001

Press Release From XTech Industries

Commander X, CEO of XTech Industries, announces the official opening of Deep 
Space Station X today.  2 years in the making, DSS-X is a spacestation 
located corward from Sylea, right on the edge of the current Imperium's 
borders. This station has been declared an offical member of the Imperium by 
the signing of the "Article of Incorportation" by the Emperor at the Opening 
Ceremonies.

IISS statisitcs are AX00513-C  Im  200 , the X size clasifation denotes an 
orbital facility only, no actual world exists.

Facilities include:
Shipyards featuring XTech Designs
A "Walkabout" or "Promenade" featuring many shoppes, including a Tavern, 
Casino, and Hotel
A 1,000,000 ton capacity landing bay
Refined and Unrefined Fuel
A Holo-net where residents and visitors can gain information on the Station
Location of XTech Offices

Set co-ordinates and jump to Station-X Today!

>In Character mode off<

Ok folks, the new final release of Planet X is up and running
that URL is still:  http://www.magicnet.net/~opp-mag/

Cyas there.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 97 15:06 GMT
From: walker@esc.cam.ac.uk (Greg Walker)
Subject: re: size and eclipses

the angle of the axial tilt to the sun would be 25sin(2pi t/T)
where T is the period of the gas giant orbit.

assume the shadow for the GG comes back straight. It would actually have a small region of partial shadow because the star isn't a point.
now assume that at the distance of the moon, there is a big projection screen.

The GG shadow is then a nice disc, of radius 27.89/2 =b 
the moon comes in at height 25sin(2pi t/T) = a
 and velocity 2pi R(orbitof moon)/T(orbit of moon)

the width of shadow to cross is 2R(GG) sin(pi/2 (b-a)/b)
		so that a=b, the moon just clips the shadow, so has zero width,
		and at a=0 has maximum width

so the duration of the eclipse is width/velocity.

this assumes the moon is a point, and the radius of orbit is large compared to the gas giant.

for non- point like moons, the angular width of the moon is 'c'
fo a latitude on the moon, the 'height' is c.sin(latitude). modify b by this amount to find the correct height.

this'll give you how long.

eclipses should be centred at local noon, for the point in the centre of the hemisphere facing the GG. it'll sweep across at approx the velocity just calculated

if you realy want detail, work out the angular radius of the star. on my imagined projection screen, measure that distance bothin and out from the disc edge. that ring is partial eclipse
if you're outside the ring, no eclipse
 and inside  the central disc you have a total eclipse
Greg

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:22:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
Subject: Sorel

It's not canon, but I've run adventures on Sorel a few times, and I take the
view that the Scouts allow contact, and enforce import restrictions, and that
they do it at the request of the local government...

I also ran the planet through WBH once, and it came out to be uncomfortably
hot, so that the inhabitants are tough, *sweaty* barbarians. (-:

My main source of inspiration for Sorel and its relation to the wider
picture is drawn from Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover books.  (Yes, and
there are other carryover elements of inspiration too--don't upset the
local lord's wisewoman.)

Rob Dean
robdean@access.digex.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:34:26 -0800
From: David Bullock <dbullock@cris.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #819

>Date: Tue, 07 Jan 97 22:19:30 -0600
>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Subject: Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEBSITE
>
>On 01/07/97 at 05:14 PM,  David Bullock <davidbullock@tech-center.com>
>said:
>
>> We are working with Matt Machtan and the various providers to move the
>> "www.imperiumgames.com" address to point to the new page, however, until
>> the site address is shifted, the new address is:
>
>> 	http://www.opx.com/imperiumgames
>
>You've still got a problem.
>
>I just tried the new address and got a 404 error.  You sure the address is
>right?

If you experience problems with the above URL, you can use one of the
following explicit URL's...

        http://www.opx.com/imperiumgames/
        http://www.opx.com/imperiumgames/index.html

OPX's new server is HTTP/1.1 compliant, and some browsers that don't like
HTTP/1.1 may balk a little.  AOL had a problem with their browser until last
week, and it's now fixed.

Just for the record, the site is hand coded with VI, and tested using Lynx
v2.6.2, Internet Explorer 3.01, and Netscape 3.0.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:42:07 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship V1 design spreadsheet available.

Nicolas LEJEUNE said:
> At 10:52 07/01/1997 +0200, you wrote:
> >        Starship V1 design spreadsheet is now available.
> >        ...
> 
> Hey, great. What a huge job...

Okay - I missed it. Where do I find this?

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 10:21:41 -0600
From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Starship V1 design spreadsheet available.

At 09:42 AM 1/8/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Nicolas LEJEUNE said:
>> At 10:52 07/01/1997 +0200, you wrote:
>> >        Starship V1 design spreadsheet is now available.
>> >        ...
>> 
>> Hey, great. What a huge job...
>
>Okay - I missed it. Where do I find this?
>
>-- 
Joe.

It is at http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen/Traveller/Stars-v1.zip.

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:54:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: "Plasma" questions

On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> Fusion creates excess neutrons (and hence neutron radiation).  The Fusion
> setups around my area are in blockhouses of concrete.  The advantage of
> Fusion over Fission is that Fusion does not create *persistant* radiation
> or radioactive waste.  Emissions are only present when the reactor is
> active, turn it off and its like turning off a lightbulb, no more
> emissions.  

Except that the chamber is slowly absorbing neutrons and becoming
radioactive.  It's not very radioactive, but eventually your fusion
reactor site will all become low-level radioactive and need to be
disposed of somehow.  A professor I worked for joked about building
a fusion reactor in a valley in West Texas, running several years of
tests on it, then filling in the valley with concrete.  ;)

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:39:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Exhaust Velocity

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> Multiply the specific Impulse by 9.8 m/s^2 to get the exhaust
> velocity. This plus the average molecular weight of the exhaust, and
> the efficiency of the nozzle will let you calculate the temperature of
> the exhaust.

Not in Traveller.  The Ve = g * Isp equation barely works for HEPlaR and
fails utterly for fusion rockets because their exhaust velocity turns out
to be relativistic, and that's a Newtonian equation.  (In the past, this
has resulted in people crying "Fusion rockets in Traveller are broken;
the exhaust goes faster than light!")  :)  It works for real-life rockets,
because they have much slower exhaust velocities.

I believe that the corrected equation should be something more like

[1]  Ve = (9.8 * Isp) / gamma 

     where gamma = 1/Sqrt[1-(Ve^2/c^2)]
       and c = 299792458 meters per second (lightspeed)
       and Ve is exhaust velocity in meters per second,
           Isp is specific impulse in seconds.

[2]  Ve * gamma = (9.8 * Isp) 

     is useful to get all the Ve terms on the same side here.

Based on the fuel consumption figures given in the T4 rules, I found
the specific impulse (Isp) of fusion rockets and HEPlaR drives.  I
also made calculations for thrusters as if they were reaction drives,
using the fuel consumption of a fusion plant at the tech level of
introduction needed to power the thrusters.  I got the following
results:

Specific Impulse
- ----------------
Fusion Rocket:  1.46 10^8 seconds
HEPlaR:         4.11 10^6 seconds
Thruster:       1.2  10^11 seconds (effective)

Compared to an Isp of 450 seconds for the shuttle, or maybe 3000 for
a NERVA rocket, an Isp measured in days is pretty scary.  It is, however
necessary for the background to look the way it does.  If you want to
play like NASA, you need to stay at tech-8 and below; and most of the
hardware in current operation is only tech-7.  The first stage of a 
Saturn V is arguably only tech-6.

Exhaust Velocity
- ----------------
Fusion Rocket:  2.93 10^8 m/s = 0.97875 c = gamma of 4.88
HEPlaR:         3.96 10^7 m/s = 0.13320 c = gamma of 1.01
Thrusters:      effectively c (gamma of about 3920)

Let me say again.  You *don't* want to be standing too close to one of
these things.  :)  

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 97 16:36:40 UT
From: "Arthur Murphy" <MycroftHolmes@msn.com>
Subject: Air Raft

I just finished my ship design for the January ship contest, was about to add 
an Air raft, when I could not find it in the listing.  I couldn't believe it, 
the most common mode of transport from the old systems missing!  Someone has 
to have made the design or converted an existing one.
It just ain't gonna do it without an Air/Raft!
Anyone got the T4 stats for it?  I would surely appreciate it.
Arthur
Mycroftholmes@msn.com
"anyone know how to get POP3 mail on an Exchange Server?"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:55:42 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Another Star Question

Does anyone know where one can find out

A) relative number of stars in each luminosity class (Ia to white dwarf)

and

B) for each luminosity class, the relative number of stars in each 
   of the spectral classes (O to M). 

I've downloaded the latest version of Gliese catalog, but I'm a little
reluctant to start trudging through it, both because of its daunting
length, and because for many entries, only the spectral class and the
actual luminosity are offered, and although I suppose it would be possible
to consult the tables in my much-abused copy of "C.T. Book 6: Scouts" to
tentatively assign these entries to one luminosity class or another, doing
so would require a lot of time and energy, and I'd hate to expend it
trying to re-invent the proverbial wheel.  Thanks, very much, in advance.

                                                             - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:06:18 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: S.S.D.S. "Maneuver Drive" Question

Please forgive me if I'm missing something obvious - I don't have a copy
of the S.S.D.S. in front of me as I compose this message - but what kind
of maneuver drive are TL-8 spacecraft supposed to use?  At TL-8, nuclear
fission power plants are available, but fusion rockets, HEPlaR, and
thrusters are all still in beyond the technological horizon...  Or are all
the relevant design rules for really primitive maneuver drives only to be
found in F.F.S.?
                                                           - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:21:36 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: No discrepancy.

For those who are following this thread, I think you are seeing how the
Traveller "random" world generation system forces us to think up explanations
to fit the facts. If we consciously made up worlds, then we wouldn't put a TL
1 world next to a TL 15 world. When the dice (or the electrons) make that
situation happen, then the referee is forced to think up a reason why (as
several have).

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 11:33:09 -0600
From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Traveller 4 CSC Computer Additions

CSC's VDS computers stopped at T-13, well I have extrapolated beyond that.

TL     Rating   Mass Kg   Cost
10      4        420      600000
11      5        600      2000000
12      6        1500     10000000
13      7        5400     70000000

The above would be for computers used by Imperial Intelligence as per the T4
main rule book, ie TL-6 rating.
Below are computers for those of us that are not playing Milieu 0.
Take into account that the last rating is for "Imperial Intelligence".

TL     Rating   Mass Kg   Cost
14      0         -        -
14      1        0.1      30
14      2        0.5      300
14      3        4        3000
14      4        20       30000
14      5        110      300000
14      6        600      3000000
14      7        3000     30000000
14      8        18000    300000000

TL     Rating   Mass Kg   Cost
15      0         -        -
15      1         -        -
15      2        0.1      50
15      3        1        500
15      4        2.5      5000
15      5        40       50000
15      6        250      500000
15      7        1500     5000000
15      8        10000    50000000
15      9        40000    500000000

TL     Rating   Mass Kg   Cost
16      0          -       -
16      1          -       -
16      2          -       -
16      3        0.1      80
16      4        0.1      800
16      5        4        8000
16      6        25       80000
16      7        150      800000
16      8        1000     8000000
16      9	 5000     80000000
16      10       25000    800000000

TL     Rating   Mass Kg   Cost
17      0         -        -
17      1         -        -
17      2         -        -
17      3         -        -
17      4         -        -
17      5        0.4      90
17      6        2.5      900
17      7        15       9000
17      8        100      90000
17      9        500      900000
17      10       2500     9000000
17      11       10000    90000000

TL     Rating   Mass Kg   Cost
18      0         -        -
18      1         -        -
18      2         -        -
18      3         -        -
18      4         -        -
18      5         -        -
18      6        0.25     25
18      7        1.5      250
18      8        10       2500
18      9        50       25000
18      10       250      250000
18      11       1000     2500000
18      12       5000     25000000

TL     Rating   Mass Kg   Cost
19      0         -        -
19      1         -        -
19      2         -        -
19      3         -        -
19      4         -        -
19      5         -        -
19      6         -        -
19      7        0.15     45
19      8        1        450
19      9        5        4500
19      10       25       45000
19      11       100      450000
19      12       500      4500000
19      13       2500     45000000

TL     Rating   Mass Kg   Cost
20      0         -        -
20      1         -        -
20      2         -        -
20      3         -        -
20      4         -        -
20      5         -        -
20      6         -        -
20      7         -        -
20      8        0.1      55
20      9        0.5      550
20      10       2.5      5500
20      11       10       55000
20      12       50       550000
20      13       250      5500000
20      14       1250     55000000

TL     Rating   Mass Kg   Cost
21      0         -        -
21      1         -        -
21      2         -        -
21      3         -        -
21      4         -        -
21      5         -        -
21      6         -        -
21      7         -        -
21      8         -        -
21      9         -        -
21      10       0.1      65
21      11       1        650
21      12       5        6500
21      13       25       65000
21      14       100      650000
21      15       500      6500000


Sinbad Sam
Sinbad@dfw.net
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 11:26:21 -0800
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: The FAQ for this Mailing List

Jason Doell wrote:
> 
> I was wondering if anyone could post me the FAQ as I am extremely new to
> this list and am wondering what has happened to the Traveller universe
> since GDW went the way of the Dodo.

Jason, you can find the FAQ for the list, as well as an ImperiumGames
(Current publishers of Traveller) FAQ at Joe's website:

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/

> Jason Doell - Univ. of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon Canada,
> <jdoell@eagle.wbm.ca>

Hey! Someone from Saskatoon! I'm thinking of starting up a game, if
you're interested, email me...

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========
Technology is an extension of our hands and our feet, not our spirit.
                                    -- Filmmaker Costa-Gavras, 9/6/95

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 97 22:40:47 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Try these on for size

These are two designs for fast-attack vehicles that I feel are fairly
representative of the Vargr design philosophy.  They're mostly built to go
"that way", really fast and really loudly.  The designs are according to
FFS, and so they're mainly built for T:TNE, but it shouldn't be too hard to
convert them to T4.

- ---------------------------------------------------------

Vargr Ouluekou Grav Jet-Bike

Tech Level:  12
Price:  Cr81,100
Size:  7 kiloliters (0.5 dTons, SM)
Mass:  1.677 tonnes empty, 2.509 tonnes loaded
Power:  0.25 MW Gas Turbine, with High Bypass Turbofan generating 0.9
tonnes 
     thrust (0.03785 MW excess power)
Maint:  1
Controls:  Dynamic Linked, TL-10+ Flight Avionics, TL-12 Terrain Following 
     Avionics, 1xTL-12 Flight Computer (no backup)
Commo:  300km Radio
Life Support:  Light, heat
Cargo:  0.5 kl
Crew:  1
Passengers:  None

Max Speed:  400kph
Cruising Speed:  300kph
NOE Speed:  160kph
Travel Move:  1200km/960km
Combat Move:  50/22
Fuel Capacity:  716.9 liters High Grade Hydrocarbon Distillates
Fuel Consumption:  165 liters/hour (4.34 hours duration)

     Combat Statistics
     Config:  Motorcycle   HF:    3
     Susp:    Grav         HS:   [1]
                           HR:    1
     Deck:    Open Side    Belly: 1

  A small contra-grav vehicle sport and racing vehicle designed by Vargr
corsairs for maximum speed and strike capability.  The cargo is carried in
a small compartment forward of the pilot's seat, and can be used to mount a
light machinegun or similar weapon.  Weapons mounted can be controlled by
the pilot, but usually can only be used to fire forward.
  Like most Vargr designs, the Ouluekou (Howling Fury) jet-bike is a
mechanic's 
nightmare.  Its Turbofan engine generates more thrust than the airframe is
built to handle, and so it tends to suffer from accelleration stress and
metal fatigue over its operational life, increasing the wear and
maintenance required.  Still, it is popular among Vargr corsairs, who favor
it for the sheer terror that squads of jetbikes can generate.  It also
enjoys a certain popularity among humans who enjoy racing dangerous
vehicles.


FF&S Design Sheet
Disp=0.5 (7kl)
MV=0.25 (1 cm), 0.025 (1 mm):  1 mm thick 
Material=Superdense, AV=1.4 (base)
Airframe=Simple
Armor Slope:
  Front  Radical  -1.4kl  AV 3
  Sides  None     -0      AV 1
  Rear   None     -0      AV 1

Volume: 1.425  Mass: 0.375  Price: 350

Component:     Volume:   Mass:   Price:   Power:   Notes:
Hull           1.425     0.375     350             Simple Airframe
HECG Susp.     0.15      0.1     15000    0.05    
Dynamic Link   0.007     0.0007    500    0.00015
TL-10+ Avion.  0.001     0.001   25000    0.1
TL-12 TF Avi.  0.1       0.03    14000    0.03     NOE 160kph
TL-12 Flt Cmp  0.8       0.16     3000    0.04
300km Radio    0.0001    0.0002    500    0.01
Seat, Cramped  2.5       0.2      1500    
Gas Turb PP    0.5       0.5      2500   -0.25     FC: 0.075kl/hour HCD
HBT 0.9 Tt     0.3       0.3     18750   -0.018    FC: 0.090kl/hour HCD
Cargo          0.5       0.125
Fuel           0.7169    0.7169
               ------    ------  -----   --------
Totals:        7.0       2.5088  81100   -0.03785   FC: 0.165kl/hour HCD

- ---------------------------------------------------------

Vargr Souzghourroar Attack Jetbike

Tech Level:  13
Price:  Cr90,360
Size:  7 kiloliters (0.5 dTons, SM)
Mass:  1.777 tonnes empty, 2.369 tonnes loaded
Power:  0.25 MW Gas Turbine, with High Bypass Turbofan generating 1.2
tonnes 
     thrust (0.047 MW excess power)
Maint:  1
Controls:  Dynamic Linked, TL-10+ Flight Avionics, TL-13 Terrain Following 
     Avionics, 1xTL-13 Flight Computer (no backup)
Commo:  300km Radio
Life Support:  Light, heat
Cargo:  0.1 kl
Crew:  1
Passengers:  None

Max Speed:  750kph
Cruising Speed:  560kph
NOE Speed:  170kph
Combat Move:  105/24
Fuel Capacity:  566.9 liters High Grade Hydrocarbon Distillates
Fuel Consumption:  195 liters/hour (2.91 hours duration, max range=2180km)

     Combat Statistics
     Config:  Motorcycle   HF:    3
     Susp:    Grav         HS:   [1]
                           HR:    1
     Deck:    Open Side    Belly: 1

  Another vehicle designed for the suicidal, the Souzghourroar  ("Fiery
Death") 
jetbike is optimized for maximum speed.  Like the Ouluekou jetbike, its
cargo area is located just forward of the pilot's controls and is just
large enough to mount a light support weapon such as a machinegun or plasma
gun.  Any weapons are limited in firing to the forward arc.
  The Fiery Death jetbike (the name is probably a mistranslation) is often
more 
dangerous to the pilot than to anyone else.  It is better designed than the
Ouluekou, and so does not suffer from the same levels of accelleration
stresses and metal fatigue, but the engines are still the same Vargr
designs, requiring frequent maintenance.  Due to its smaller cargo
capacity, it is less popular among corsairs than its predecessor but is
still popular among racing enthusiasts.


FF&S Design Sheet
Disp=0.5 (7kl)
MV=0.25 (1 cm), 0.025 (1 mm):  1 mm thick
Material=Superdense
Airframe=Fast Subsonic (max 800, Vol -0.35kl, Pricex1.02, Eff 0.90)
Armor Slope:
  Front  Radical  -1.4kl  AV 3
  Sides  None     -0      AV 1
  Rear   None     -0      AV 1

Volume: 1.775  Mass: 0.375  Price: 360

Component:     Volume:   Mass:   Price:   Power:   Notes:
Hull           1.775     0.375     360             Transonic Airframe
HECG Susp.     0.15      0.1     15000    0.05
HoloLinked     0.007     0.0007   1000    0.002    Hypersonic
Seat, Cramped  2.5       0.2      2000    
TL-10+ Avion.  0.001     0.001   25000    0.1
TL-13 TF Avi.  0.1       0.02    15000    0.02     NOE 170kph
TL-13 Flt Cmp  0.9       0.18     4000    0.045
300km Radio    0.0001    0.0002    500    0.01
Gas Turb PP    0.5       0.5      2500   -0.25     FC: 0.075kl/hour HCD
HBT 1.2 Tt     0.4       0.4     25000   -0.024    FC: 0.120kl/hour HCD
Cargo          0.1       0.025
Fuel           0.5669    0.5669
               ------    ------  -----   ------
Totals:        7.0       2.3688  90360   -0.047    FC: 0.195kl/hour HCD
	
- ---------------------------------------------------------

These are my first real attempts at building vehicles under FF&S, so if
I've made any errors in math, please let me know.  (I didn't add any armor
layers beyond 1mm, so that should make it easier to check)

Jeff Kazmierski
Alien Vehicle Designer, Naval Architect, Military Intelligence Analyst,
Sophontologist and HTML coder at large

- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\      "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________
        odysseus@novia.net
  http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:36:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: January Ship Design Contest

For everyone's convenience, I have put a copy
of the January Starship Design contest up on the web,
at http://www.magmacom.com/~ehenry/traveller/jan-contest.html

I haven't actually asked Joe about this yet, so Joe, if it's a problem,
just let me know and I'll take it down.

I'll post my own entry when I actually manage to finish it...

Ethan
ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:40:45 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: January Ship Design Contest

On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Ethan Henry wrote:

> For everyone's convenience, I have put a copy
> of the January Starship Design contest up on the web,
> at http://www.magmacom.com/~ehenry/traveller/jan-contest.html
> 
> I haven't actually asked Joe about this yet, so Joe, if it's a problem,
> just let me know and I'll take it down.
> 
> I'll post my own entry when I actually manage to finish it...

Sounds fine.  And remember folks, if you're unfamiliar with SSDS and 
would like to make an entry into the contest using that design system, 
then drop by IRC channel #traveller on Thursday, where Allen Shock will 
be doing a walk-through of the system.  For details on how to get to 
#traveller, when to be there, and so on, email suzd@goodnet.com


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #821
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 8 1997     Volume 1996 : Number 822



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Gliese & Star Probabilities (was Another Star Question)
Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues 
Re: Size in the sky & eclipses
Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues
Re: Note On: News From Imperium Games
Re: No discrepancy.
Starship V1 corrections.
Re: Air Raft
Reviev:  Alien Archive
Review:  Central Supply Catalog
Re: No discrepancy
Web page Stuff . . . 
Re: Review:  Central Supply Catalog
Re: Corridor invasion details (long)
Re: Form FF&S to T4

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:07:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Gliese & Star Probabilities (was Another Star Question)

John P. Raynor <john.raynor@yale.edu> writes:
> Does anyone know where one can find out
> A) relative number of stars in each luminosity class (Ia to white dwarf)
> and
> B) for each luminosity class, the relative number of stars in each 
>    of the spectral classes (O to M). 
> I've downloaded the latest version of Gliese catalog, but I'm a little
> reluctant to start trudging through it, both because of its daunting
> length, and because for many entries, only the spectral class and the
> actual luminosity are offered, and although I suppose it would be possible
> to consult the tables in my much-abused copy of "C.T. Book 6: Scouts" to
> tentatively assign these entries to one luminosity class or another, doing
> so would require a lot of time and energy, and I'd hate to expend it
> trying to re-invent the proverbial wheel.  Thanks, very much, in advance.

There's no clear-cut answer, as far as I know, due to the fact that
our observations of nearby stars are somewhat lacking, but back about
a year ago, I was looking into this question and came up with a bit of
data which you might find useful.

Check out http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/rag.html and go down to the
mailing list archives where are there. The last two (dated from
02-Dec-95 to 20-Mar-96 & from 20-Mar-96 to 14-May-96) contain
information pertaining to this question which you might find useful.

jimv@empirenet.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 14:17:27 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Subject: Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues 

 "Here's a question for ya. Can a tidally-locked world be habitable (capable
  of supporting life on its own with a "pleasant" and somewhat constant
  temperature) at any given location on the planetary surface? I was under
  the assumption before this discussion started that tidal-locking would
  cause extremes of temperature. One side of the planet could be boiling,
  and the other side would be frozen solid. Would a tidally-locked planet
  be able to maintain its atmosphere? If not... then the possibility of
  habitation is pretty much flushed down the toilet."

A few years ago, I asked this question of a planetary scientist who 
was giving a lecture on Venus at Boskone.  He talked about how very 
slow air circulation was on Venus, and how slowly the planet rotated 
with respect to the sun, but that temperatures were still very 
uniform all over the planet.  I asked if air circulation would then 
be sufficient to moderate temperatures on an otherwise Earthlike 
one-face world.  He felt it very likely.

So I expect that some oneface worlds could have reasonable belts of 
habitability between a hot pole and a cold one. 

Earl Wajenberg

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:06:19 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Size in the sky & eclipses

Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp> said,

>The planet (moon) is orbiting the gas giant on the equatorial plane (with 0 
>degrees tilt - perhaps because it is tidally locked - one orbit=1 day).  The 
>gas giant has a 25 degree axial tilt.  This also helps with the sticky 
>problem of having solar eclipses every day for a few hours, because the gas 
>giant won't block the sun every day around noon.  Actually, it just reduces 
>the frequency of eclipses.  I think I would get daily solar eclipses around 
>the vernal and autumnal equinoxes (gas giant's), right?
>
>How would I calculate when the eclipses would occur and for how long?

For these and many other star-system design questions, I strongly recommend
you check out the wonderful Alien Planet Designer web page, at:

        http://www.compulink.co.uk/~vicarage/planets/

This is a godsend for anyone who is interested in accurate planet and
system design, espedially for mathophobes such as myself. Just plug in some
values for the star and planet, and it spews out a wealth of data,
including angular size of the primary and the moon, whether or not eclipses
occur, tectonic activity, mean temperatures, surface gravity, coriolis
effect, and much else. The site also has a large number of indispensible
links to astronomical resources on the Web.

Have fun,

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."
                  -- Trevor Goodchild

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:03:32 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues

Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:00:36 -0800 (PST); Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Here's a question for ya. Can a tidally-locked world be habitable (capable
>of supporting life on its own with a "pleasant" and somewhat constant
>temperature) at any given location on the planetary surface? I was under
>the assumption before this discussion started that tidal-locking would
>cause extremes of temperature. One side of the planet could be boiling,
>and the other side would be frozen solid. Would a tidally-locked planet
>be able to maintain its atmosphere?

The bottom line is that it's not known.  It is theoretically possible
for atmospheric circulation to distibute heat.  The problem is
that if you go through a period where the atmosphere begins
to freeze out on the cold side you loose atmospheric circulation.
The cold side them plumets in temperature (permamently freezing
out the atmosphere) and you can recover.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:42:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Note On: News From Imperium Games

On 8 Jan 1997 Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:

>      I want the IG site to have a Traveller News Service! Starting at date 
>      001-0000, and stepping forward in time at a rate of perhaps 1 game 
>      year per (real-time) month or so. An 'official' news service is one of 
>      the things I miss from the old issues of JTAS and Challenge, and 
>      (cynically) it provides a simple way for IG to maintain interest in 
>      their product line. 

The plan has been to start the TNS once the Milieu 0 book is out.  As far 
as I know, that plan hasn't changed.  But, you might want to get in touch 
with the folks running the new web site . . .


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:54:56 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: No discrepancy.

On  8 Jan 97 at 12:21, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> For those who are following this thread, I think you are seeing how the
> Traveller "random" world generation system forces us to think up explanations
> to fit the facts. If we consciously made up worlds, then we wouldn't put a TL
> 1 world next to a TL 15 world. When the dice (or the electrons) make that
> situation happen, then the referee is forced to think up a reason why (as
> several have).
> 
> Marc Miller

Exactly.  The random system gets my creative juices going.  It is one 
of the true joys of the game.

I feel the same about the character generation process--my favorite 
out of any RPG.

Kenneth.
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 01:17:53 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Starship V1 corrections.

> 1- The jump drive volume depends on jump perf (you've taken the wrong cell
> (G-rating))

        Ok. This was clear error. Corrected. Thank you.

> 2- The formula for the jump fuel is in FFS    
>              JD volume*5 
>      for a max jump. In you sheet it seems to be different.

        According to "Naval Architect's Handbook"
        (http//www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller) the jump fuel
        requirements in T4 are 10% of hull displacement per Jump
        number. I used that value.

> 3- The workstation for the turret and barbette are already installed in the
> component. So you don't have to count them for the gunners. 

        Hmm. I didn't notice this before. It is now fixed it so that
        only MFD gunners have separate workstations.

        One additional change to the spreadsheet was the new BL hit location
        and damage table calculations to "BL Data" sheet.

        The corrected version is now available in ny web page at:

        http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen/Traveller/Stars-v1.zip

        

        Antti Lahtinen    :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        al76188@cs.tut.fi :

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 18:07:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Air Raft

On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Arthur Murphy wrote:

> I just finished my ship design for the January ship contest, was about to add 
> an Air raft, when I could not find it in the listing.  I couldn't believe it, 
> the most common mode of transport from the old systems missing!  Someone has 
> to have made the design or converted an existing one.
> It just ain't gonna do it without an Air/Raft!
> Anyone got the T4 stats for it?  I would surely appreciate it.

Hi Arthur,

There is an Air Raft on page 84 of the T4 rulebook.  The CSC stats for it 
aren't there, but at least the tonage and so on are.

Hope this helps,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 17:07:05 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Reviev:  Alien Archive

One of the staples of science fiction is the alien; the lifeform from
another world that has a world view all its own.  SF aliens have ranged from
the wonderous (Niven and Pournelle's Moties, The Race from the World War
series), to the ridiculous (most of Star Trek's aliens), to the infamous
"people in rubber suits" " (the Star Wars aliens, which no matter what shape
or color, acted very human).

Traveller's Major Races were a bit stereotyped... wolf pack Vargr, samurai
Aslan, etc.. so I admit to a little aniexty regarding this latest attempt at
aliens.

PHYSICAL:

A well put together 106 page book.  Foss art is thankfully used only on the
covers, and the artwork can be vaguely linked to the topic (I imagine the
front cover as showing Trakki Abominations circling one of their dead
cities).  The interior illustrations are well executed.  The typeface is
fairly large, but not overly so, and IMHO aided my attempt to read the
book.. I didn't have to squint.  At the end is a collection of "concept"
drawings.. I would have preferred additional finished artwork, or perhaps
some alien eqiupment.

CONTENT:

The book gives us 12 new races.. two are human minors, the rest are....
alien.  Tim Brown is to applauded for daring to go to extremes of design,
such as the Nunclees and the Providers.  Each race is presented with a
physical, psychological, and social brief, a cursory look at the homeworld,
and two sample members: one in the Imperium, one who lives on the homeworld.
Historical and character generation notes are also included.

EVALUATION:

Was this book worth the money I paid for it?  Yes.  Every race gave me ideas
for characters or adventures.  Their was nothing in this book I couldn't use.

I give it an 8 (out of 10)

 
+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 17:07:08 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Review:  Central Supply Catalog

Now this is more like it!

PHYSICAL:

A 96-page book, with Foss banished to the covers for the most part.  well
organized, with occasional interior artwork illustrating the items described.

CONTENT:

The first half of the book is taken up by one of the most interesting
equipment lists I have seen in a long time.  Putting an actual Imperial
Surplus listing first was a stroke of genius.. I can just see the PC's
saying "well, it says that the battery should be here.. look again!"

The equipment list is also written with a subtle sense of humor..
"meaningful cultural exchanges" indeed!

Woven in among the shelves of gear are rules for such thing as vaccum
exposure and extremes of temperture.  I would have preferred that these all
be gathered into one place for ease of reference, but that's a minor nit.

The seconf main section is the vehicle design rules.  I haven't had the
opertunity to mess with these yet; but they look fairly complete.  As
someone has already pointed out, these rules err a bit on accuracy in favor
of playability.  I haven't found this to be a great problem, but if you wish
to be *exceedingly* anal about such things, buy GURPS Vehicles, v2, and
convert back over.

The final section is some pre-built vehicles.  The TL12 Grav Fighter is
exceedingly nasty.  I imagine ImpArmy jocks have a lot of fun flying these
things... 17.3Gs of Accl.. wow.

EVALUATION:

I admit it, I'm a Greg Porter zombie.  I have been using 3G3 for years, and
my copy of the new version is in the mail to me.  This is how Traveller
supplements should be done.  It is weel written, has very few typos, and is
useful.

I give it 10 (out of 10)

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:24:35 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: No discrepancy

Marc Miller writes:
>For those who are following this thread, I think you are seeing how the
>Traveller "random" world generation system forces us to think up explanations
>to fit the facts. If we consciously made up worlds, then we wouldn't put a TL
>1 world next to a TL 15 world. When the dice (or the electrons) make that
>situation happen, then the referee is forced to think up a reason why (as
>several have).

I don't have a problem with the system because it produces odd results. I 
think it is splendid that we have to strain our imagination to explain such 
results. What I think is wrong is that it produce so _many_ odd results. I 
don't, for example, want a one-to-one correspondence between habitability 
and population, but I do want _some_ correlation. One or two worlds with
insidious atmospheres and high populations is fine, but it is not fine that
the population distribution on worlds with insidious atmospheres is exactly
the same as the population distribution for Terran-norm planets. That does
not (if you'll forgive me a reference that I'm sure you're already getting
tired of hearing quoted) make economic sense ;-).

I've been amusing myself by working on the history of the Spinward Marches
since I got Galactic, and I've come up with some very creative explanations
about why some prime planets are practically unpopulated, but there are so
many of them that it is getting to be a strain. Especially the ones that are
astrographically so strategically located on trade routes that one would
think that the system would have been colonized even if the mainworld was
inacessible due to plague, poison, tsunamis, volcanoes, and earthquakes.

Random generation is fine for getting the imagination going, but only if
you do a reality check on the results later. The system I use in my own 
game universe is to spend 15 minutes trying to make sense of an odd UPP and
then changing it as little as possible if I can't. That still makes for some 
pretty strange and interesting results on occasion!


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 17:48:06 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Web page Stuff . . . 

New stuff for Rich's Traveller Pages:

Characters: Two of the Sunday Follies characters are now immortalized in
HTML . . .

Ships: The Antelope, the Sunday Follies' PC's ship, is posted as well as
the Ardin Empire's Naval Order of Battle, the Third Imperium's naval OB
(including fighter squadron assignments!), the new Sylean carrier
_Victor_, and an old Sylean patrol cruiser. 

	Real Soon Now . . . . 

The continuing saga of the Sunday Follies has a home now, and game
writeups are on their way . . . .

The Sunday Follies version of the Traveller News Service! Just what is
the Ardin Empire up to, anyway? Will Cleon's Sylean vision triumph, or
will it die aborning? Find out here! Nosy Travellers need to Know!!

Find out at http://home.inreach.com/lordbasl/trav_idx.htm

- --Rich Ostorero
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 17:35:55 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Review:  Central Supply Catalog

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> Now this is more like it!
>

<<review deletia>>

> 
> EVALUATION:
> 
> I admit it, I'm a Greg Porter zombie. 

I like the guy's work, too, on Car Wars and Cyberpunk (Maximum Metal was
AWESOME). Don't forget Macho Women with Guns and _The Con Game_.

> I have been using 3G3 for years, and
> my copy of the new version is in the mail to me.  This is how Traveller
> supplements should be done.  It is weel written, has very few typos, and is
> useful.

I guess I'm gonna have to get 3G3, too. 
> 
> I give it 10 (out of 10)

9.5 from the Lodi judge; not enough weapons for my taste, but in terms
of correcting the probs that plagues _Starships_, CSC was super.

- --Rich
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 03:46:11 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Corridor invasion details (long)

Steven Bonneville writes:
>More Corridor invasion comments:

Well done, Steve. This is most useful. Where did you get the specific dates?

>Date      Day  Week
>221-1117    0     0  Depot "finally" recieves Transfer Order, 328 days
>                     after learning of the assasination. 
>242-1117   21     3  Corridor Fleet departs for Zarushagar. 

OK, this gives us an upper limit for how much of the reserve fleet could have
been activated and sent off with them. Not much use, though, unless we can
agree on how big the reserves were.

>102-1118  246    35  In an unprecedented display of cooperation, the Vargr
>                     "Destiny Alliance" attacks Depot with a 500 ship fleet.
>                     The three squadron security fleet is overwhelmed.

It's an odd thing about Depot. with a population of only 1000, it can't be
as useful as it appears to be. There's simply not enough workers to make
much of a difference wrt. ship-building (as opposed to ship maintenance).

>130-1118  274    39  Depot falls to the Destiny Alliance.
>171-1118  315    45  ADM Andreas Xavier orders resistance on Depot to cease.
>                      The Vaenggvae take over under Noegzoel.  Largest three
>                      factions follow her.  Windhorn Alliance formed.
> 188-1118  332    47  Battle of Durima, between Vargr invaders and Durima
>                      system defenses, augmented by fleets from Khukish.
>                      Humans drive off attack.
> 010-1119  519    74  RVE and Deneb end abortive attempt to retake sector,
>                      after coming to blows near Durima.

Are you saying that RVE and Deneb ends up fighting each other!?! That goes
some way to explain things. Yes, I can see why Norris might keep out of
Corridor in the face of a threat from RVE (I have a lot more trouble with
the RVE threatening Norris, since they would (or at least should) be 
reluctant to provoke a war with him). But I _can't_ see Norris abandoning
three subsectors of his own Domain.

>- ----------------------------------
>Construction times, TCS, in weeks:
>
>Light cruiser (20000 d-ton)  == 174 weeks (87)
>Heavy cruiser (50000 d-ton)  == 192 weeks (96)
>Battleship    (100000 d-ton) == 208 weeks (104)
> 
>The times in parentheses assume that the ship isn't the first built in the 
>class by the starport, double the yard capacity is assigned to it, and 20% 
>extra of the unmodified ship cost is paid.  This allows (0.4+0.4+0.2) == 1
>extra week of work of work to be completed every week, the maximum allowed.

That's precisely the assumptions I used when I worked out my figures some
weeks ago.

>- ----------------------------------
>Okay, so what do we have to work with?  This is a list of all the worlds I
>could find in Corridor with tech-13+ yards with 100,000 d-tons or more of
>TCS construction capacity (calculation is (population * 1.2/1000)):

> Durima        1205 B420ADE-F  G Hi Na In Po De     234 Vg A7 V
> 
> Kaasu         1209 AA7A9CD-G    Hi In Wa Cx        922 Vg A6 V
> Khukish       1606 A77A989-F    Hi In Wa Cp        823 Na G9 V
> Shushaka      1109 A772988-F    Hi In              815 Vg M0 V K2 D
> Plunge        2505 B2409CC-E  H Hi In Po De        824 Vh G7 V
> Khouth        0104 A8C3999-D    Hi Fl Cp           420 Vf M3 V
> Drayne        0910 B6749C9-D  H Hi In Rs           801 Vh F3 V M4 V
> 
> Kiran         0112 A354856-F  G                    901 Vf M0 V K5 V
> Demick        1013 A532879-E    Na Po              702 Va K6 V
> 
> [Any others are on the far side of the Rift.]
> 
> A quick rundown, with information collected from MTJ about what happened
> with these worlds:
> 
>DURIMA fought off one attack in 1118, but fell between 1119 and 1120 despite
>  support from Khukish.  Jump-4 from Khukish, Kaasu, and Shushaka; 7 parsecs 
>  from Depot.  [I wouldn't think this would fall, but maybe they didn't have
>  much of a defense fleet.  Seems unlikely.]

I agree.

>KAASU fought until 1119, when Marquis Jan Rehman negotiated a separate peace 
>  with the Dzarrgh Federate.  Has allowed tech-16 equipment to fall into the
>  hands of Vargr since then, but maintains some autonomy.  

It is much more likely that he is making a bid for independence and is trying
to provide himself with an alibi.

>We know nothing of SHUSHAKA, except that it's jump-1 from Kaasu, jump-4 from
>  Depot, and appears to have fallen to the Vargr by 1120.  [Again, you'd bet
>  this would hold, even though the Vargr could use Kaasu to resupply.]

Yep.

>PLUNGE declared itself an open planet, and is involved in a very lucrative
>  trade supporting the fleets of the Windhorn Alliance.

Again, propably acting from hidden motives (or not so hidden  --  profit)
rather than being forced into anything.

>KHOUTH is too close to the Dzarrgh Federate border for safety, especially
>  with its' lower tech.  It's on the Denebian sector border, and on its own.

Except that being on the Denebian sector border it shouldn't be on its own.
It should be able to count on help from Denebian forces.

>Hans wrote:
>>Secondly, Mikesh suposedly has a class C starport in 1120 after being taken
>>over by Vargr. I'm not surprised that their starport isn't up to snuff after
>>being attacked by 13+ Vargr fleets. However, that dosen't say anything about 
>>what it was in 1117.
> 
>Class-C.  At least, according to the pre-Rebellion sector files on the net
>for Corridor.  I agree, you'd think they'd have *some* starship manufacturing
>capability....

It dosen't make economic sense for them not to ;-). Besides, as Andrew pointed
out, _High Guard_ does allow them to build ships even if _TCS_ dosen't. A 
case of conflicting rules where, I submit, we should use our judgement. The 
best explanation I can come up with is that the Mikesh economy is booming so 
that ship construction is tied up years in advance. Hence outsiders can't get
their ships serviced there, causing a temporary drop in starport rating.
Not a very good explanation, I admit.

>Finally, on Vargr technology and fleet strength, from _Vilani & Vargr_.  The
>way the world generation tech level rules work, where the Imperium would have
>three tech-15 worlds, the Vargr have one tech-13, one at 14, and one at 15.

Yes. I found that out myself yesterday and was preparing for a helping of
crow today. I was wrong about the Vargr TL being max 13. It is TL 12 on
the average and trails the Imperium by one TL on the average, but there are
some TL 15 worlds.

>This gives them a fighting chance against the Imperial reserves (tech-14 in
>general) and mothballed ships pulled into service that the Corridor Fleet 
>didn't reactivate to take with them (tech-13/14 in general).  

You're off there, though. The reserve regulars may be TL 13/14 in general
(though if the reserves are 8 times the size of the active fleet, there will
also be TL 15 reserves), but the reserve colonials will be the TL of the 
system that build them. 

>In TCS, to reactivate a ship in ordinary takes 10% of construction time; 
>the Fleet had plenty of time to reactivate most of the operable ships in 
>the mothball fleet and take them with, assuming the shipyard capacity was 
>available, which is less than clear, and that they got started even a 
>couple of months after notification of the assassination.

Capacities:

Durima: (Pop*0.75/1000) =	 15 mill T

Kaasu:  (Pop*1.1/1000)  =	9.9 mill T
Khukish: (Pop*1.1/1000) =	8.8 mill T
Shushaka: (Pop*1.1/1000) =	8.8 mill T
Plunge: (Pop*1.2/1000) =	9.6 mill T
Khouth: (Pop*1.15/1000) =	4.6 mill T
Drayne: (Pop*1.2/1000) =	9.6 mill T
 
Kiran: (Pop*.95/1000) =		0.9 mill T
Demick: (Pop*1/1000)		0.7 mill T

A total of slightly less than 68 mill T of capacity.

Fact: The Imperium has an average of 1000 combat ships per sector.
Assumption: Imperium has 28.000 active combat ships distributed on 320 fleets,
an average of 87.5 ships per fleet.
Assumption: Corridor fleets amount to 1400 ships.
Assumption: Average size of Imperial ships is 100,000 T. (Based on an average
tax base of CrImp120 per citizen and using 55% of that to maintain mothballed
ships).
Assumption: Reserve fleets amount to 8 times the active fleet. (This is based
on a 3% of GNP in peacetime, 15% of GNP in wartime spending).

If so, the Imperial Corridor reserves amount to 1120 million T of warships.

Assuming doubling up of yard capacity, the Corridor shipyards can handle
34 million tons of warships at a time. 2% of 140 million T is tied up in
Imperial replacement ships already in the pipeline. Remains 31.2 mill T
of capacity. 

Assume an average of 9 weeks to reactivate a "batch".

Assume Corridor goes on a war footing the second they hear of the
assasination (NOT a plausible assumption, btw.) they have 50 weeks to
activate ships. This makes 5 "batches" reactivated, or 156 million T.
Remains 964 million T. Not counting the reserve units of planetary defense
forces, of course.
 
>Also, just around the Windhorn is Llaegharrgh, a Vargr high-population,
>tech-16 world.  It's been involved in a brutal five year war, but enough
>battle-seasoned corsairs left to join in that the war came to a temporary
>standstill; these corsairs would be *extremely* dangerous.  They'd be few
>in number, I think.  [They're the capital of the Llaegharrgh Interactate,
>and get a mention in DGP's Vilani and Vargr.]

Interesting. That definitely helps the Vargr.

>We know the Dzarrgh Federate sent its' regular navy into the fray.  It 
>seems they're using the invasion as a common mission to hold their worlds
>together.  

I wonder how long that will work? after all, they are just stretching their
command lines longer, making it more likely that a faroff fleet commander
will decide to set up on his own.

>The Irrgh Manifest sent so much of its' fleet into Corridor 
>that the Glory of Taazkhorn took over some of its' worlds; the larger
>part of the fleet ended up working for Noegzoel and her Windhorn Alliance,
>and is chopping up Kaasu subsector.  The Glory was apparently heavily
>hiring corsairs before the Rebellion, to launch a crusade against the
>Manifest; after taking a handful of worlds, they called off the crusade
>and are attacking Corridor instead.
> 
>Perhaps the Corridor government was only expecting corsair raids, not a
>full-blown invasion by Vargr interstellar governments, but this seems
>really dumb on their part. I'll also note that for whatever reason, the
>Imperium seemed to feel it *needed* two full numbered fleets in each
>subsector in Corridor to defend from the Vargr threat -- if it was really
>meant for use against the Zhodani, they would have been much more usefully
>stationed at the Denebian depot.  

Well, that's another bit of canon. The Corridor fleets was a strategic
reserve. I'm not saying that it was only against the Zhodani; it could 
have been a reserve against the Julian Protectorate too.

>I suspect that the Vargr also had a *lot* more ships than would be normal 
>-- after all, they need to defend themselves against the massive Imperial 
>threat in Corridor!  What if the Imperium decided to widen the Corridor all 
>the way to the Windhorn Rift, to secure it against a natural barrier?  This 
>thought can't be far from the Vargr's minds.

Yes, but there is a natural limit to how many ships a Vargr government can
have. They don't even get to tax all the people in their territories;
according to _Vargr_ most governments have large autonomous groups in
their population.

But the real problem is: Why didn't Deneb hold its borders against the Vargr
(as they have plenty enough strength to do) and why did they not extend
their protection to the spinward half of the Corridor subsectors once they
saw that the Zhodani wasn't going to attack?



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 21:49:00 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Form FF&S to T4

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Go ahead and post them. I'm sure some of us are twisted enough to find
> a way to use them. :-)
> 
> BTW, which superman is this? The one from the mid 70s who could move
> planets? The one from the 80s, who was still pretty powerful, but
> wasn't up to moving planets? The Brunner rewrite who can't even fly
> FTL? Or the current one?

By popular request....

The Current Superman (pre-Doomsday) in T4

Armour 100
Structure 25

Powers
Invulnerability: recovers his structure in armour every turn in an atmosphere, and he can 
enter vacuum for 4 turns without ill effect. He loses 20 Armour or 5 structure each turn 
thereafter
Supersenses: He effectively has an unjammable active sensors rating of 7, and is also 
immune to less than TL 13 EMM
Superstrength: he can attempt to hit a starship at difficulty of Difficult, doing 23 points of 
damage a hit, he can also apply 5440 G displacement tons thrust versus any ship he can grab 
hold of. Each use costs him 2 armour or 1 structure
Heat Vision: he can do an attack at a range of 1 hex, difficulty of Average, doing 4 points of 
damage. Each use costs him 2 armour or 1 structure
Superbreath: He can apply 7 G displacement tons thrust versus any ship in the same hex. 
Each use costs him 20 armour or 5 structure
Flight: acceleration 5 G, maximum speed 5. Unlimited hex turns per turn at no cost in 
movement. Each use costs him 1 armour or 1 structure
Superspeed: this power in total doubles his flight speed, drops difficulty of any attack by 
him by one level, and raises difficulty to hit him by one. Each turn of use costs him 5 
armour or 3 structure

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #822
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, January 9 1997      Volume 1996 : Number 823



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Vargr forces and reserves (long)
Re: A question about "The Controlled"
Re: re muon fusion
Re: Ship Accomodations
JTAS #25
Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues
Goodbye, farewell, adieu et al. 
Re: Vargr forces and reserves (long)
Milleau "5th Frontier War" now on the IG
Re: "Plasma" questions
Re: Try these on for size
Traveller Timeline
BARD Library
Re: Size of Depot
RE: Ship Accomodations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:30:16 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Vargr forces and reserves (long)

Andrew Vallance writes:
>First - Vargr corsairs have always raided Corridor, so when the
>   fleets up and leave they keep raiding and find the fleets are gone.

Agreed.

>Second - With the fleets gone, corsair activity steps up meeting
>   more success (note the corsairs only attack the low pop worlds)

Yep.

>Third - One of the Vargr interstellar gov'ts over the border decides
>   to take a risk and invade (why? large Vargr gov'ts are unstable
>   and their leaders need ***lots*** of charisma, this is a gamble
>   on getting charisma).

Yeesss... The problem here is that the charisma won't go to the Vargr 
government leaders, it will go to the fleet commanders. It's the classic
problem of the old Roman emperors with the added twist that it must be
a lot worse for Vargr and that the Vargr leaders can't go themselves,
the way some Roman emperors did, because that makes the other part of
the charsima equation -- distance -- kick in.

>>You don't think that any high-population world would be dependent on
>>importing things like food, air and water? The logistics of doing so is
>>prohibitive. All of these worlds can feed themselves although they'd run 
>>short on gourmet imports.
> 
>Just looking for plausible explainations :*). My guess (and it is just
>a guess) is that these worlds didn't feed themselves (not couldn't,
>just before the rebellion they just choose not to invest the resouces
>on artifically creating an agircultural biosphere).

Importing, say, one kg of food per person per day will require 28 million
tons of dedicated starships per billion inhabitants (Rough assumptions:
Jump-1 starships have 50% cargo capacity and costs Cr.0.5 per T). That will 
require a yearly maintenance cost of Cr1400 per person. for a TL 15 planet 
that would cost 6% of the GNP, or roughly twice what they supposedly use on
military spending. It increases the cost of the food by from 58 up to nearly
200%, depending on exact quality. (It also requires a world within 1 parsec 
that can produce the required amount of excess food per year.)

>>>You can probably say the same for Shushaka (hydro 2) and Ashima (Atmos 4,
>>>hydro 3, TL A); though Shushaka might hold out for a while. 
> 
>>Same argument.
> 
>Ashima is a fairly marginal chance for survival with it's low tech and
>hostile biosphere

Atmosphere 4 is not a hostile biosphere. Worlds with tainted atmosphere are
eligible for Terran-prime category (size and hydrography permitting). Besides,
TL 10 is not low tech. It's a tad better than what we have today.

>>I have to disagree. They might take the opportunity to go independent and
>>carve out their own little pocket empires instead of cleaving to their
>>allegiance to the Imperium, but joining a Vargr Corsair alliance is a very
>>unlikely thing to do. Though they might allow some Vargr to join _them_, if
>>they decided to go independent.
> 
>You've got the worlds around you falling left right and centre;
>The Imperium is ripping itself apart, the two human states which
>could help you have given up (for whatever reason), a sizable
>interstellar Vargr state offers you protection and some degree of
>autonomy. I'd say it plausible.

Once you're talking autonomy the picture improves, I admit. But then, that's
what I said above. They are more likely to try to carve out their own little
pocket empire. I'd be wary of those pesky humans if I was the Vargr leader 
in question. The tail could easily end up wagging the dog ;-)

>>>Khukish: Allegiance = Non-aligned, not 'Independent Vargr' but 'Non-aligned'.
>>>this world has not fallen.
> 
>>True. But neither have they reestablished peace and trade with their close
>>neighbours despite having had three years to build up their navy.
> 
>Because three years is not enough time. Not only do you have
>to build (or reactivate) the ships, 

Kukish has had two years on its own to reactivate ships. That's roughly
48 million tons of starships, the equivalent of 5 and a half full Imperial
fleets.

>but you have to find crews for them, train the crews and then familarise 
>the crews with their ships. I'd say four years minimum to do that. 

I say that WWII dosen't bear you out. I think it took a lot less than that
to train new crews.

>>Well, since it is sound sense to reactivate mothballed ships before beginning
>>new construction (1/10th the time and 1/10th the cost) and since Trin is 
>>still reactivating ships in 1123 (See _Arrival Vengeance_), it is most 
>>likely that the Domain has as many ships laid up as their budget allows. 
>>If we assume that the Imperial worlds use 3% of GNP in peacetime and 15% 
>>in wartime, the moth-balled navy could be 8 times as large as the 
>>peacetime navy.
> 
>That would seem make sense wouldn't it? but would it happen? 

If it didn't, why is Trin still reactivating ships in 1123? Even with 8
times the standing navy in mothball Trin is behind. it should have 
reactivated that many in a little less than 6 years. (Wait, I may be 
overlooking the finances; the shipyards wouldn't be able to afford to
go at full rate of reactivation as the number of ships to be maintained
grows. There would be a sliding scale involved. I don't have the energy
do the calculations now).  

>Look at the US navy. After the First and Second World Wars they had massive 
>numbers of mothballed ships. Why? because during the Wars they built far far 
>more than they needed in peace, so they stored them. Eventually they got 
>scrapped (the last of the Second World War ones went in the late 80's)
>Did they get replaced? No. The USN is now deactivating the bulk of its 
>intial post war build (50's and 60's), are these ships going into reserve? 
>No. Why not? They're worn out, they're obsolete 

But the US is not storing their ships in an oxygen-free environment that
will make it last for centuries and the Imperium TL is not advancing at
the rate that the US is.

>At best the reserve fleet is going to be 20% to 50% of the peacetime fleet.

Yes, but even with calculating with 55% of the budget going to maintain
reserve fleets, the Imperial military spending only comes to CrImp120 per
citizen, which is _really_ low. The other way to work the assumption is
to make the average Imperial ship much larger than the 100,000 T I'm 
already assuming.

>Why? Navies don't build ships just to put them in reserve. The FFW was not 
>big enough or long enough (it only lasted two and a half years) 

1107 to 1110 is more than 2.5 year. Of course, it is too little time to
reactivate a huge reserve fleet, but...

What you say makes sense, but any way you look at it the figures are odd. I
don't insist on an 800% reserve, but you get some undesirable effects in 
other parts of our assumptions if we assume only 50%.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:46:35 -0500
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: A question about "The Controlled"

At 11:25 AM 1/7/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I'm reading through the Aliens Archive, and while I am generally impressed,
>something about The Controlled" bothers me.
>
>I can't figure out when this write up is supposed to have been written.  The
>mixed references to all three Imperia makes it hard to determine just when
>the Guy-troy were first contacted, when the Imperium (which one?) decided to
>destroy their culture, and how the Third Imperium figures into all this.

Yes. It reads as if it were written for the Classic
late-Third Imperium setting and had some names hastily
switched to make it "M0". (Note the "Vilani" official
with the suspiciously-Solomani-sounding name of Ranson Masters).
(Perhaps someone's old Contact notes have been sitting
in a file cabinet for years?)

I have vew complaints and many kudos for AA, but one
of the complaints is that it apparently wasn't proofread 
by anyone familiar enough with Traveller's established
background to red flag this fairly obvious discrepancy.

Also note the Controlled and Hresh encounter characters
who live on Dingir (presumably Dingir/Solomani Rim).
Dingir is in the ballpark of 120 parsecs from Sylea
(at least a year and a half one-way at Jump-3), across 
over 2 sectors of (in M0) poorly charted territory.

Furthermore, "historically," the Imperium gradually absorbed
the worlds and pocket empires of the Solomani Rim from
the 300's to the 500's.  In M0, it's doubtful anyone from
Sylea has even visited Dingir, except perhaps for a few
brave Scouts on a long-range exploratory mission
(that's a HINT, for the "campaign-idea-challenged").

And a final errata: the Newts belong in Empty Quarter sector,
not Old Expanses. And they don't have claws, so their
picture shouldn't either.

>
>The situation is even more muddled by the last paragraph on pg 23 that has
>Imperial intervention taking place 300 years ago!  If this is supposed to be
>a M:0 book, it should have been a Sylean intervention.

True.  On the other hand, their background is
SUPPOSED to be muddy (;)), and it doesn't really
affect actually roleplaying individual Controlled
in your game.

>So far, this is my only real problem with the book; although I would have
>preferred having the full illustration of each race with its write up as
>opposed to just the skeleton.

That doesn't bother me as much as the 3 or so pages
of "concept" art which has nothing to do with the 
finished form.  Plus the fact that all the aliens are
shown "alone and buck nekkid." Many are gregarious
and technological, and it'd be nice to see what some
of them look like in an "actual" situation -- complete
with clothes, equipment, body language, etc.


John Bogan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:50:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: re muon fusion

In a message dated 97-01-06 05:26:33 EST, you write re my quest for strange
knowledge:

>Can't be that disturbed - you might find the following URL useful, muon 
>catalysed fusion comes in at number 43.
>
>Others might find the entire list interesting too.
>
>
>http://www.ifi.unizh.ch/groups/ailab/people/schaad/space/Canonical_Space_
>transport_list
>
>
>HTH

I knew this was the place to look for the answer.
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:58:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ship Accomodations

In a message dated 97-01-06 10:15:23 EST, you write:

>OTOH, it's quite possible that people will have a more Japanese attitude
>toward their sleeping spaces a few thousand years from now. If that's true,
>and we have gravity control, then even a half ton will be plenty for the
>sleeping compartment...walk into a stand-up "closet", turn on zero-g, and
>go to sleep.  <g> You might have your storage in the same space, or down in
>the hole.  The "facilities" would be down the corridor.  Most living space
>would be in commons areas.

You have to be strapped to something or you'll drift towards the air vents.
Me, I could never sleep standing up.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 97 23:22:42 -0600
From: Harley Grantham <harley@wavetech.net>
Subject: JTAS #25

Well I haven't seen anyone else mention it so I will.  I picked up issue 
#25 of JTAS at my local game store yesterday and it looks very good.  Jo 
Grant's 100 cargoes article is excellent, the interior art is really good 
for T4 :), and the Chris Foss cover is forgivable.  In fact the only 
thing I would have liked to have seen that wasn't there was the 
Traveller's News Service and maybe a "where we are going" column by the 
editor.

Oh yes, and there is an ugly grey splotch over the Bits of Biotechnology 
article by Aaron Link that really shouldn't be there.  It's readable but 
Aaron deserves better.

Despite that IG has done very well with the Journal.


Harley Grantham                                       harley@wavetech.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:48:45 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues

>The bottom line is that it's not known.  It is theoretically possible
>for atmospheric circulation to distibute heat.  The problem is
>that if you go through a period where the atmosphere begins
>to freeze out on the cold side you loose atmospheric circulation.
>The cold side them plumets in temperature (permamently freezing
>out the atmosphere) and you can recover.

Sorry, make that "can't recover".

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: 09 Jan 97 22:04:33 +1100
From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Subject: Goodbye, farewell, adieu et al. 

     Fellow sophonts of the TML
     
     After tomorrow (10-01-97) I leave this place for another, higher 
     place; I return to university that I might focus my mind upon things 
     other than the fictional history that is our common (glorious!) 
     hallucination. 
     
     I will unsubscribe from the TML until I get another email account; 
     this will hopefully be no later than mid-February or at latest early 
     March. And hopefully the new email account will enable me to connect 
     to B2 directly, rather than via your living rooms. 
     
     As Archduke Norris screeched in agony on 029-1135, after a 
     particularly vicious plate of Vindaloo curry: 
     "Keep the flame? YOU keep the f#%king flame!"  
     
     Cheers, 
     Michael Barry
     
     PS there is no truth in the rumour that B1, B2 and B3 were destroyed 
     due to sabotage, or that B4 disappeared on completion. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:17:13 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Vargr forces and reserves (long)

At 04:30 9/01/1997 +0100, you wrote:
>Andrew Vallance writes:
>>Third - One of the Vargr interstellar gov'ts over the border decides
>>   to take a risk and invade (why? large Vargr gov'ts are unstable
>>   and their leaders need ***lots*** of charisma, this is a gamble
>>   on getting charisma).

>Yeesss... The problem here is that the charisma won't go to the Vargr 
>government leaders, it will go to the fleet commanders. It's the classic
>problem of the old Roman emperors with the added twist that it must be
>a lot worse for Vargr and that the Vargr leaders can't go themselves,
>the way some Roman emperors did, because that makes the other part of
>the charsima equation -- distance -- kick in.

At home the Charisma will go to the leader or at least some of
it will. Yes the leader is taking a huge gamble on lots of factors,
but that is the whole point. For the Vargr to have effective large
interstellar states (which they do) this problem can not be
insurmountable.

>>Just looking for plausible explainations :*). My guess (and it is just
>>a guess) is that these worlds didn't feed themselves (not couldn't,
>>just before the rebellion they just choose not to invest the resouces
>>on artifically creating an agircultural biosphere).

>Importing, say, one kg of food per person per day will require 28 million
>tons of dedicated starships per billion inhabitants (Rough assumptions:
>Jump-1 starships have 50% cargo capacity and costs Cr.0.5 per T). That will 
>require a yearly maintenance cost of Cr1400 per person. for a TL 15 planet 
>that would cost 6% of the GNP, or roughly twice what they supposedly use on
>military spending. It increases the cost of the food by from 58 up to nearly
>200%, depending on exact quality. (It also requires a world within 1 parsec 
>that can produce the required amount of excess food per year.)

Actually importing 1kg of food per person per day requires a little
under 71,500 Td of cargo space (14,000 Kg per Td) per billion.
Using your figures (1Td cargo per 2Td of ship cost Cr0.5 per Td of
ship), it would cost Cr100,100 per billion per parsec. I'd agree
it is a lot, but it depends on the cost of creating and maintaining
an artifical biosphere (from dirt up). If your interested the average
person requires about 4 kg of food and water per day.

>>Ashima is a fairly marginal chance for survival with it's low tech and
>>hostile biosphere

>Atmosphere 4 is not a hostile biosphere. Worlds with tainted atmosphere are
>eligible for Terran-prime category (size and hydrography permitting). Besides,
>TL 10 is not low tech. It's a tad better than what we have today.

Tainted thin atmoshpere with only 25% to 35% water, sounds at
least a little unfriendly :*) and TL 10 is low compaired with TL 13 :*).

>>>I have to disagree. They might take the opportunity to go independent and
>>>carve out their own little pocket empires instead of cleaving to their
>>>allegiance to the Imperium, but joining a Vargr Corsair alliance is a very
>>>unlikely thing to do. Though they might allow some Vargr to join _them_, if
>>>they decided to go independent.

>>You've got the worlds around you falling left right and centre;
>>The Imperium is ripping itself apart, the two human states which
>>could help you have given up (for whatever reason), a sizable
>>interstellar Vargr state offers you protection and some degree of
>>autonomy. I'd say it plausible.

>Once you're talking autonomy the picture improves, I admit. But then, that's
>what I said above. They are more likely to try to carve out their own little
>pocket empire. I'd be wary of those pesky humans if I was the Vargr leader 
>in question. The tail could easily end up wagging the dog ;-)

Actually if I was the Vargr, I'd welcome those pesky humans, a darn
sight more consistant/dependable than your average Vargr :*). but yes
again your right, the Vargr would have to play it carefully.

>>Because three years is not enough time. Not only do you have
>>to build (or reactivate) the ships, 

>Kukish has had two years on its own to reactivate ships. That's roughly
>48 million tons of starships, the equivalent of 5 and a half full Imperial
>fleets.

Assuming that they're stored at Khukish, assuming that there are
48 MTon of warships stored at all, assuming the ships Khukish
has are jump capable, assuming no ships came along and
wanted to be repaired or have their annual maintaince done :*).

>>but you have to find crews for them, train the crews and then familarise 
>>the crews with their ships. I'd say four years minimum to do that. 

>I say that WWII dosen't bear you out. I think it took a lot less than that
>to train new crews.

The systems used in the 2nd WW were a tad simplier than those
likely on your average TL15 warship :*), but even then it took 2 yrs
to train a competent crew. Taking the modern RN as an example.
Basic training = 3 mths, Sea training = 3 mths, Specialist training =
1 yr to 3 yrs (depending on speciality). And then once they are
trained you have to bring them together in a ship and allow them to
get used to one another (work up). During the 2nd WW the average
time to work up a new crew/ship was 6 mths. Using an unworked
up ship was little short of suicidal (witness the Prince of Wales in
the Battle of Denmark Strait). This gives you a minimum of two
years to get a crew ready, more likely three to four. Interestingly
during the 2nd WW, by about mid 1943 the RN and USN were
decommissioning older ships to allow their crews to be assigned
to new ones because they couldn't train crews fast enough, this
was at the height of the Battle for the Atlantic when every ship was
needed.

>>That would seem make sense wouldn't it? but would it happen? 

>If it didn't, why is Trin still reactivating ships in 1123? Even with 8
>times the standing navy in mothball Trin is behind. it should have 
>reactivated that many in a little less than 6 years. (Wait, I may be 
>overlooking the finances; the shipyards wouldn't be able to afford to
>go at full rate of reactivation as the number of ships to be maintained
>grows. There would be a sliding scale involved. I don't have the energy
>do the calculations now).

The missing factor is repairs to damaged ships and finding those
fiddly little out of date parts that got replaced in first line service
decades ago and you now find the ship just won't run without :*)

>>Did they get replaced? No. The USN is now deactivating the bulk of its 
>>intial post war build (50's and 60's), are these ships going into reserve? 
>>No. Why not? They're worn out, they're obsolete 

>But the US is not storing their ships in an oxygen-free environment that
>will make it last for centuries and the Imperium TL is not advancing at
>the rate that the US is.

Actually the USN is storing the ships in an oxygen
free enviorment. Mothballing invovles sealing the ship,
pumping it full of a inert gas and then coating the hulls
in plastic. Theoretically a mothballed ship can last
for 100+ years. However the tech is a good point. So
I've looked around for a better example:

The RN in 1791. A warship built in 1791 was not
significantly different from one built in 1594, or one built
in 1845 (these dates mark the period of the classic
sailing ship of the line) and was just before the massive
mobilisation and building program of the Revolutionary
and Napoleonic Wars which would throw latter figures
out. Ships of this period could be and were maintained
as effective fighting vessels in reserve for over 70 years
(note HMS Victory can be considered to have been an
effective fighting ship for about 120 years, 85 of which
were spent in reserve, and she's still around in good
condition 116 years later). The following tables throw
some light on the level of reserves.

                         Comm          Res         Bld
1st rate                 0                  5             2
2nd rate                5                11            6
3rd rate               61                47          11
4th rate                  1                  0            0
- -------------------------------------------------------
S-o-L                    67               62          19

                         Comm          Res         Bld
4th rate               15                  2            3
5th rate               56                33            3
6th rate               38                  4             0
- -------------------------------------------------------
Cruisers           109              39              6

This gives 176 ships active as against 101 reserve
The reserves are 60%-70% of the actives. This
percentage stays constant for the RN through out
the period (1594 to 1845). I chose the RN because
its situation was similiar to that of the 3rd Imperium.

>>At best the reserve fleet is going to be 20% to 50% of the peacetime fleet.

>>Why? Navies don't build ships just to put them in reserve. The FFW was not 
>>big enough or long enough (it only lasted two and a half years) 

>1107 to 1110 is more than 2.5 year. Of course, it is too little time to
>reactivate a huge reserve fleet, but...

(FFW 1008 days = 2.8 years) No you've missed the point, not
to reactivate a huge fleet, to build a huge fleet. I was just saying
the FFW would not have lead to the kind of massive building
program that the World Wars did.

>What you say makes sense, but any way you look at it the figures are odd. I
>don't insist on an 800% reserve, but you get some undesirable effects in 
>other parts of our assumptions if we assume only 50%.

As far as I can see the only effect is that because there
aren't a huge surplus of ships laying around in reserve
states at war will tend to spend much of their now
increase military budgets on building new ships. Which
is what happens historically. If the number of ships in
reserve is much above 100% of the number in active
service then they are building ships just to go into
reserve. I just can't see any sane government allowing
that to happen (Imagine the headline "Navy builds
ships which are never used").

P.S. I'm about to go away on holiday for a week, so
if I appear slow in replying, please bear with me.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
This is air traffic contol
All our operators are busy at the moment
So please land your plane after the tone
Beeeeeeeeepp.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:35:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Milleau "5th Frontier War" now on the IG

Buzzed by the IG website today, i still love what Dave is doing with it, but 
something interesting has been just put up.

Some of you may have already seen it, click on TNS.

The TNS page has all the old TNS posts from the old JTAS magazines, most of 
them anyway.  Dates range from 1105-1107  Right about the time of the 5th 
Frontier war.  This is not M:0, but interesting to say the least.  As I only 
have a few of the old JTAS, this is a good thing for me.

I am making an assumption that they are going to put all TNS logs from all 
the JTAS mags on the site CT(1-24) and then M:0(25+)

Of course, I have been known to be wrong before.

Just thought I'd mention it, this site is begining to ROCK!
1996 was T4's year, 1997 will be the begining of the AGE of T4!

This has been another rabid rambling by  Commander X
We now return you to your regularly scheduled digest.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:45:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: "Plasma" questions

On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Bolie Williams IV wrote:

> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> > Fusion creates excess neutrons (and hence neutron radiation).  The Fusion
> > setups around my area are in blockhouses of concrete.  The advantage of
> > Fusion over Fission is that Fusion does not create *persistant* radiation
> > or radioactive waste.  Emissions are only present when the reactor is
> > active, turn it off and its like turning off a lightbulb, no more
> > emissions.  
> 
> Except that the chamber is slowly absorbing neutrons and becoming
> radioactive.  It's not very radioactive, but eventually your fusion
> reactor site will all become low-level radioactive and need to be
> disposed of somehow.

Right, found reference to this *after* I posted.  Fusion is
expected to create from 1/100th to 1/1000th the quantity of radiated
material that Fission does now.

>  A professor I worked for joked about building
> a fusion reactor in a valley in West Texas, running several years of
> tests on it, then filling in the valley with concrete.  ;)
> 

Does that mean Cambridge MA will need to be paved over in the future?  (I
hope so!:).

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:55:11 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Try these on for size

On 7 Jan 1997, Jeff Kazmierski wrote:

> These are two designs for fast-attack vehicles that I feel are fairly
> representative of the Vargr design philosophy.  They're mostly built to go
> "that way", really fast and really loudly. 

I Love 'em!  Definitely going to find their way into the next session
(which happens to be Vargrward).

Kudos on the design philosophy and imagination.  Math I can check later.

Pete 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:44:54 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Traveller Timeline

Hey.  Who is it that is doing the Traveller Timeline on the net and where
exactly is said timeline said to exist? :)

thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:44:51 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: BARD Library

Greetings Sapients,

It is my pleasure to announce the official re-opening of the BARD Library.
Put quite simply, the BARD Library is a collection of reference material
made available to the general public by the Reformation Coalition.  To visit
our new location, point your viewer to
http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger/trav.htm and execute.  From there you will
have access to the BARD Library as well as other useful information.

Currently we are still remodeling the BARD Information Listings, so please
bear with us while we arrange everything to better suit your needs.

BARD is currently seeking new volunteers.  There is a universe of
information out there that needs to be gathered, organized, and made
available.  We are currently looking for field reporters, and HTML coders to
assist in the building of the BARD Library Database.  If you are interested
in helping to further the cause of the Reformation Coalition by helping BARD
grow, please contact me, Miller Philibus, Director of the BARD Library.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:04:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Size of Depot

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> Subject: Re: Corridor invasion details (long)

I've been 'lightly' following this discussion - Very intersting
btw.

> It's an odd thing about Depot. with a population of only 1000, it can't be
> as useful as it appears to be. There's simply not enough workers to make
> much of a difference wrt. ship-building (as opposed to ship maintenance).

I'm assuming you got this from the UPP. UPP stats aren't always what
they seem, especially for pop & govt. I believe that the UPP population
level represents permanent residents in the majority race. One could
assume that Depot has very few real permanent residents, like any
armed forces base, but has _lots_ of transients. Like a summer
resort town - permanent population 2000, summer population 20,000.
Now, that's a factor of 10, but I bet for Depot it could be 100 or
1000 times. Also, why in the Imperium would the ISS publish any
information whatsoever about Depot, a military installation that
is presumably not secret, but not exactly public either.

It is, to an extent, a question of whether UPPs are supposed to 
reflect absolute reality or the information available to the
characters.

> It dosen't make economic sense for them not to ;-). Besides, as Andrew pointed
> out, _High Guard_ does allow them to build ships even if _TCS_ dosen't. A 
> case of conflicting rules where, I submit, we should use our judgement. The 
> best explanation I can come up with is that the Mikesh economy is booming so 
> that ship construction is tied up years in advance. Hence outsiders can't get
> their ships serviced there, causing a temporary drop in starport rating.
> Not a very good explanation, I admit.

Military shipyards != civilian shipyards.  Maybe Mikesh Jump drives
are so good, they're military-only technology. 

Anyways, carry on. You're much more interesting than I am.

Ethan
ethan@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 97 14:55:51 UT
From: "Arthur Murphy" <MycroftHolmes@msn.com>
Subject: RE: Ship Accomodations

Up? Standing up? In zero G?  Just think about that for a second.  Without a 
gravity well orienting everyone in the same "up" and "down" directions, those 
ideas lose their referents and become just convenient labels.  "Up" would be 
the direction your head is pointing (since we grew up in a gravity well, we 
have always had the same perspective.  Someone who didn't might not though.)  
So  you don't have to worry about sleeping standing up. <g>

Arthur Murphy
Mycroftholmes@msn.com


- -----Original Message-----
From:	owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM  On Behalf Of Neveron@aol.com
Sent:	Wednesday, January 08, 1997 11:59 PM
To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Re: Ship Accomodations

In a message dated 97-01-06 10:15:23 EST, you write:

>OTOH, it's quite possible that people will have a more Japanese attitude
>toward their sleeping spaces a few thousand years from now. If that's true,
>and we have gravity control, then even a half ton will be plenty for the
>sleeping compartment...walk into a stand-up "closet", turn on zero-g, and
>go to sleep.  <g> You might have your storage in the same space, or down in
>the hole.  The "facilities" would be down the corridor.  Most living space
>would be in commons areas.

You have to be strapped to something or you'll drift towards the air vents.
Me, I could never sleep standing up.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #823
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, January 9 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 824



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Attn:  SSDS Gurus
TNS on IG's website
Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues
Alternate propulsion (was Re: "Plasma" questions)
Re: Stars, colours and so on
Re: TNS on IG's website
Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues 
Errors in T4
More on `Real' fusion
Re: Attn:  SSDS Gurus
Re:  Vargr forces and reserves (long) (fwd)
RE: Goodbye, farewell, adieu et al. 
Re: Stars, colours and so on
Re: Stars, colours and so on
RE: Ship Accomodations
Out of Pocket
IG's New Web Address
CT Items for Sale
Re: CT Items for Sale
Re: Corridor invasion details
dragonfire.net Traveller Web Sites
Re: Imperial Navy reserves (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:25:30 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Attn:  SSDS Gurus

Greetings!

I need help in a big way.... Allen Shock is very sick and cannot do
the walk-through he'd planned this evening's Traveller on IRC
session..... Can anyone out there fill in for him on such short
notice?

Suz


#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 07:33:52 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: TNS on IG's website

I was scanning through the archived TNS entries when I found one that made
me spray Coke across the room:

>Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 224-1105
>    General Shipyards has reported 276 confirmed break-ins of its scrapyard
>at Regina during the last six months and is considering instituting a "take
>a number" system

Now that is priceless..

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:19:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues

In mail you write:

> Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> writes:
>> An M0 V is a very low-mass, low-temperature, low-luminosity star on the
>> Main Sequence
> <snip>
>> its lower temperature and luminosity would require such a world
>> to be *very* close in order to get enough warmth.
>> In turn, this requirement for proximity would in all likelihood result in
>> the world being tidally locked to the star -- either in 1:1 resonance like
>> the moon is with respect to the earth (i.e., one face always toward the
>> primary), or perhaps in 3:2 resonance like Mercury with respect to the sun
>> (three rotations per two orbits) if the planet's orbit is notably
>> eccentric. 
>
> Here's a question for ya. Can a tidally-locked world be habitable (capable
> of supporting life on its own with a "pleasant" and somewhat constant
> temperature) at any given location on the planetary surface? I was under
> the assumption before this discussion started that tidal-locking would
> cause extremes of temperature. One side of the planet could be boiling,
> and the other side would be frozen solid. Would a tidally-locked planet
> be able to maintain its atmosphere? If not... then the possibility of
> habitation is pretty much flushed down the toilet.

Remember that "tidally-locked" is *not* the same as having the same
side always facing the primary (a "one-face" world). Luna is tidally
locked to Earth, and is a one-face world. But Mercury is locked to the
sun, but in a 3:2 resonance. That means that it rotates twice in every
three orbits. This means that one side is facing the sun at perihelion,
at the next perihelion the *opposite* side is facing the sun.

That would make a livable climate more likely. An atmosphere will help
too. Several "hard science" writers have set stories on one-face wolds
around type M stars. The weather patterns will be a *lot* different
than on Earth. Typical assumption is air rises on sunside and flows to
darkside, where it cools and returns to lightside at low altitude. As
long as the air cooling on darkside is warm enough to prevent major
glaciation, you are ok. Or if you have enough water for the glaciers
forming on nightside to flow under their own weight to the edges of
dayside and then melt to replace the water carried in the air.

Another sort of world was described in an article in a fairly recent
Analog. You use a string of cometary debris to blast a series of likned
craters along the terminator from pole to pole. With the proper setup,
you get a river flowing from the poles to the equator along the
terminator through the vally formed by the craters. And you get decent
air pressure and some living area. It's a neat idea.

> And that brings up another question. What percentage of M0 V stars are
> first generation stars? If they are first generation, then they probably
> won't have any rocky planets, just gas giants. Only 2nd generation and
> later stars are likely to have planets rich in a variety of higher-order
> elements. If the vast majority of M0 V are first generation, then this
> is a major strike against them in terms of having habitable worlds.

Most M0 stars will be of the same age as the stars around them. Stars
in the galactic "disk" tend to be second and third generation. The
older stars will be moving thru the area with a quite high relative
velocity, and generally *not* moving with the "drift" of the other
local stars.

Also, second generation stars are thought to be *much* poorer in metals
than third generation stars like Sol. So while they'd have things like
silicon and oxygen (and thus rocks), they'd be noticeably lacking in
elements heavier than iron. Someday I hope to corner someone into
giving a "guesstimate" with more detail than that, so I can draw up a
rough abundances table for such stars.

Another interesting thing from a recent Analog article. It seems that
some planets have been detected orbiting supernova remanents. They
*have* to have condensed out of the nebuka formed by the supernova. And
that means that they will have *really* weird elemental abundances.
Mostly, they'll be lacking *light* elements, and very enriched in heavy
ones. Pity that it's 300 parsecs to the nearest known supernova remanent.
It'd be a place worth visiting in spite of the hazards!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:38:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Alternate propulsion (was Re: "Plasma" questions)

I just happened to stumble across an old issue of Analog, and it has an
article on the Rover project (nuclear propulsion for spacecraft).

Here's what I was able to extract from the article:

   Engine weight: 15 tons
      Max thrust: 100 tons
  fuel flow rate: 8 tons/min
specific impulse: 750
    Exhaust temp: 2227 C
    Power output: 5 gigawatts

The engine weight *includes* the pumps and the nozzle. The power output
is "thermal" so you can't tap anywhere *near* that. But I'd be willing
to be that you could add some extra turbines to the fuels system to
generate power from the high speed fuel flow. Even if it's only 1% of
the output, that's 50 megawatts. 10% would give you 500 MW.

I'd say this would work ok as the powerplant for a smaller ship. How do
the above compare with figures in FF&S?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 03:19:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stars, colours and so on

In mail you write:

>>>      I seem to remember that stars go in this sequence:
>>>      O B A F G K M  (various mnemonics, mostly obscene)
>>>
>>
>>Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me?  I suppose you *could* call that obscene. <g>
>
> Or my personal preferred mnomonic:
>
>   Oh Be A Fellow, Go Kill Mike (Right Now. Splat!)
>
> which not only covers the R, N and S oddball types, but is rather more
> Travelleresque. :)

The "standard" version of the other mnemonic covers those also.

Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me Right Now Sweetie

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 11:04:57 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: TNS on IG's website

At 07:33 AM 1/9/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I was scanning through the archived TNS entries when I found one that made
>me spray Coke across the room:
>
>>Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 224-1105
>>    General Shipyards has reported 276 confirmed break-ins of its scrapyard
>>at Regina during the last six months and is considering instituting a "take
>>a number" system
>
>Now that is priceless..

I just pulled out JTAS 3 and low and behold it was there too.  The 241-1105
article was not verbatim with the original article.  Mostly minor changes
to make it a bit more readable.  The end of 1108 catches us up to JTAS 15
which also included an entry for 1109.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 11:30:35 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Subject: Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues 

Leonard Erickson writes:

 "Also, second generation stars are thought to be *much* poorer in metals
  than third generation stars like Sol. So while they'd have things like
  silicon and oxygen (and thus rocks), they'd be noticeably lacking in
  elements heavier than iron. Someday I hope to corner someone into
  giving a "guesstimate" with more detail than that, so I can draw up a
  rough abundances table for such stars."

I once looked into the issue of element distribution across stellar 
generations.  It was years ago.  But I recall learning that when 
astronomers speak of "metals," they tend to mean any elements heavier
than helium (the bulk of which ARE metals, after all).  As far as they
are concerned, there's hydrogen, helium, and "metals."  "Metals" are 
all created by the same processes in novae and supernovae.  So I am not
sure iron will lag that far behind silicon in early-generation stars.
I think there will be the same proportions of the heavier elements, just
not much of them.

Whether that means such stars will have few rocky worlds or small rocky
worlds, or something in between, I have never been able to figure out.

Earl Wajenberg

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 17:43:44 +0100
From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Subject: Errors in T4

As designing ships is my main interest in Traveller (besides everything
else), I looked at the ships in the T4 main book. And I have a couple
of questions.

1. According to the rules the Fuel rating is the amount of fuel 
   carried in the ships given in standard displacement tons. 
   This means that the light fighter (given in both T4 and
   Starships) carries only fuel. It has a fuelrating of 10 
   and a 10 dton size. Whay wasn't the fighter changed in Starships?

2. Is there any relationships between shiparmour in FF&S and shiparmour
   in T4. Using the USD conversion charts gives the Patrol Cruiser, 
   the Scout ship enormously larger values of armor in T4 than they
   had in New Era. If the converted value from FF&S to T4 should be 
   multiplied by 10 (this seems right), how can the fighter have a 
   armour value of 8?

Thanks in advance.	
- -- 
Tommy Grav 
Email: tommyg@ifi.uio.no
WWW-Page: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html
"Sooner or later the worst set of circumstances are bound to occur."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:46:33 +0000
From: marcus.price@ukaea.org.uk (Marcus Price)
Subject: More on `Real' fusion

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:54:27 -0600 (CSR)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: "Plasma" questions

On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> Fusion creates excess neutrons (and hence neutron radiation).  The Fusion
> setups around my area are in blockhouses of concrete.  The advantage of
> Fusion over Fission is that Fusion does not create *persistent* radiation
> or radioactive waste.  Emissions are only present when the reactor is
> active, turn it off and its like turning off a lightbulb, no more
> emissions.  

<Except that the chamber is slowly absorbing neutrons and becoming
<radioactive.  It's not very radioactive, but eventually your fusion
<reactor site will all become low-level radioactive and need to be
<disposed of somehow.  A professor I worked for joked about building
<a fusion reactor in a valley in West Texas, running several years of
<tests on it, then filling in the valley with concrete.  ;)

<Bolie IV

More on `Real' fusion

Fusion causes the release of Neutrons that can activate some materials, the 
metal of the vessel is the prime target. These Neutrons are the prime source of 
the heat energy that people are trying to release. Experimental machines are not 
designed to collect these neutrons and hence need the thick concrete walls Peter 
mentions.

The amount of this activation radiation is proportional to the amount of use, 
the inefficiency of the collection mechanism and the materials involved. Current 
estimates say that fusion reactors will be active for tens of years after use, 
not the thousands of fission waste products. Not really cause for a concrete 
industry celebration.

Certainly in traveller terms it is not unreasonable to expect that the materials 
and the collection process will be sufficient to provide the on/off ideal Peter 
also describes. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:26:19 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Attn:  SSDS Gurus

Sorry to reply to my own message, but...

Commander X has graciously agreed to walk us through a ship design 
tonight, so we won't have to cancel!

He has also volunteered to give a "Part 2" next week and walk us 
through the vehicle design system in CSC!

Thank you, Commander X!

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:50:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re:  Vargr forces and reserves (long) (fwd)

Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
Subject:  Re:  Vargr forces and reserves (long)

> Actually importing 1kg of food per person per day requires a little
> under 71,500 Td of cargo space (14,000 Kg per Td) per billion.

You might want to consider that fact that the usual starship cycle time is
14 days per jump (28 days for a round trip), and that your people might want
to be fed more than once every 28 days, not to mention downtime for annual
maintenance.  So it's more like 1kg*1E9 people*30 day cycle=3E10 kg/capacity.
Figure food at 1000kg/kl = 3E7 kl / 14 kl/dt = 2.1E6 cargo capacity =
4.2E6 dt of shipping at .5 MCr/dt = 2.1E6 MCr/billion people/jump.

Rob Dean
robdean@access.digex.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:50:42 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: Goodbye, farewell, adieu et al. 

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- -----Original Message-----
From:	Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au [SMTP:Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au]

     Fellow sophonts of the TML
     
     After tomorrow (10-01-97) I leave this place
 
[Mark Ayers]  You'll be missed. Thanks for your input. A lurker.
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 97 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Stars, colours and so on

In-Reply-To: <199701080443.XAA18859@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

<< >      I seem to remember that stars go in this sequence: 
>      O B A F G K M  (various mnemonics, mostly obscene) 
>     

Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me?  I suppose you *could* call that obscene. <g> 
>>

Depends on where you want her to kiss you...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 97 18:04 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Stars, colours and so on

In-Reply-To: <l03010d03aef9170f5264@[134.36.34.81]>

<< >Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me?  I suppose you *could* call that obscene. 
<g>

Or my personal preferred mnomonic:

  Oh Be A Fellow, Go Kill Mike (Right Now. Splat!)

which not only covers the R, N and S oddball types, but is rather more
Travelleresque. :) >>

Cute. "...Right Now, Sweetie" is the usual ending.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:29:21 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: RE: Ship Accomodations

On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Arthur Murphy wrote:

> Up? Standing up? In zero G?  Just think about that for a second.  Without a 
> gravity well orienting everyone in the same "up" and "down" directions, those 
> ideas lose their referents and become just convenient labels.  "Up" would be 
> the direction your head is pointing (since we grew up in a gravity well, we 
> have always had the same perspective.  Someone who didn't might not though.)  
> So  you don't have to worry about sleeping standing up. <g>
>> You have to be strapped to something or you'll drift towards the air
vents.
>> Me, I could never sleep standing up.

	You don't even have to be not born in a gravity well...How do you
think the shuttle and Skylab astronauts sleep? (not that there really was
an 'up' in Skylab anyway...) 

	AFAIR, they just tether their sleeping bags to the wall. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 14:15:24 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Out of Pocket

I've been accidently "unsuscribed" from the TML for the last 48 or so
hours. If anyone sent something to the TML for my attention during
this time, please repost.  Thanks!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 14:19:18 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: IG's New Web Address

Apologies if everyone is already aware of the following:

IG is moving their Web site. Their new URL is:

http://206.251.237.44/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:31:51 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: CT Items for Sale

CLASSIC TRAVELLER ITEMS FOR SALE

 I am disposing of duplicate items from my personal
 collection. Prices as noted, customer pays shipping. 
 Shipping (Within the United States) is $3.00 regardless
 of the number of items ordered. Customers outside the
 US may request any form of shipment they are willing
 to pay for (price will vary depending upon method).

If desired, I will autograph any item at no extra charge.

 Payment must be by check or money order in US funds,
 drawn on a US bank, and payable to Loren K. Wiseman.

 Please respond directly to 

    GDWGAMES@AOL.COM

 or via snail mail to 

 Loren K. Wiseman
 POB 1646
 Bloomington, IL 61702-1646 
 USA

 I have duplicates of several of the items listed below,
 which are offered first come, first served. I will
 reserve any item(s) for 30 days in response to Email notification
 (60 days for overseas). All booklets are in very good to
 excellent condition.

 Tarsus (boxed adventure module) in original shrink wrap* $10
 * unless autographed, in which case I will have to open the wrap : )

 Best of the Journal
  #1      $5
  #2      $5
  #3      $5
  #4      $5

 Double Adventures
  #1 Shadows/Annic Nova     $5
  #3 Argon Gambit/Death Station     $5

 Adventures
 
 #13 Signal GK       $5

 Books
 #6 Scouts     $7

 I also have one copy of Journal of the Travellers' Aid
 Society issue #1, which I will sell for the best offer over $40.

  Loren K Wiseman
      GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:44:53 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: CT Items for Sale

> Best of the Journal
>  #1      $5
>  #2      $5
>  #3      $5
>  #4      $5

I'll take one of each of these.

> #13 Signal GK       $5

This too.

Peter Miller
1266 Pallatine Drive
Oakville, Ontario
L6H 1Z2, CANADA

I'd love it if you autograph those pleae.

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 14:58:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Corridor invasion details

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> asked:

> Well done, Steve. This is most useful. Where did you get the specific dates?

Thanks!  I read the news.  :)  Seriously, a combination of TNS articles,
the article in MTJ #2 or 3, and _Vilani and Vargr_.

> It's an odd thing about Depot. with a population of only 1000, it can't be
> as useful as it appears to be. There's simply not enough workers to make
> much of a difference wrt. ship-building (as opposed to ship maintenance).

Yeah.  You wouldn't think that the fleet could have taken *everyone* with
when they left.  :)  The only other possibility is that more people live
off-Depot in the system than mainworld stats suggest, but that's stretching
things.

As for your other points, they're certainly good questions.  It would be
nice if we knew more about Provence sector, and could make some more
rational judgements.  Here's a question.  Based on what we know about
Vargr space, what would Provence have to look like for you to consider
the Vargr to manage what the "history" is showing?

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:06:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: dragonfire.net Traveller Web Sites

Hello to those with sites at Dragonfire.net
(ie. The person running the Traveller Web Ring)

Is dragonfire dead, or what? I can't seem to get 
through and doing a traceroute there seemed to take me through
a router in the dorm of some small american college...

anyways, any idea when your site might be back up?

Ethan
ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 22:59:52 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves (long)

Andrew Vallance writes:
>At home the Charisma will go to the leader or at least some of it will. 

But with the fleet the charisma goes to the admiral and the admiral already
has the advantage of proximity. That means that sending a fleet away from
the home world is tantamount to turning it over to the admiral. So if you
don't keep another fleet strong enough to beat the first back home with you,
you're practically turning over your government to the admiral.

>Yes the leader is taking a huge gamble on lots of factors, but that is the 
>whole point. For the Vargr to have effective large interstellar states 
>(which they do) this problem can not be insurmountable.

But that's just it. The Vargr _don't_ have large effective interstellar
states. The best they can do is largish, semi-permanent, INeffective 
interstellar states. The Vargr concept of government just isn't the same
as the human concept. Large groups within national borders are autonomous
of, or even hostile to, the nation so tax collection must be a nightmare.

>Actually importing 1kg of food per person per day requires a little
>under 71,500 Td of cargo space (14,000 Kg per Td) per billion.

Argh! >>SLAP!<< Yes, you're right. My mistake.

>Tainted thin atmoshpere with only 25% to 35% water, sounds at
>least a little unfriendly :*) and TL 10 is low compaired with TL 13 :*).

Unfriendly, yes, but the air is breathable and the water is there. And TL 10
is quite enough to sustain artificial environments.

>>Kukish has had two years on its own to reactivate ships. That's roughly
>>48 million tons of starships, the equivalent of 5 and a half full Imperial
>>fleets.
> 
>Assuming that they're stored at Khukish, assuming that there are
>48 MTon of warships stored at all, 

If they exist at all then a fairly exact proportion of them will be stored
in the Khukish system.

>assuming the ships Khukish has are jump capable, 

No, these are the Imperial Navy reserves stord at Kukhish. The Kukhish
planetary defense reserves hasen't even been touched upon in that example.

>assuming no ships came along and wanted to be repaired or have their annual 
>maintaince done :*).

By _TCS_ rules repairs do take up construction space, but maintenance only
costs money; it dosen't take up space (In reality, of course, it would take
up space, but that space would be over and above the 1 T per 1000 citizens
figure). 

>The systems used in the 2nd WW were a tad simplier than those likely on 
>your average TL15 warship :*)

How do you know? According to TCS it takes 9-10 weeks to reactivate a ship
in ordinary. No special provisions are made for lower efficiency during the
first so-and-so many months. Perhaps that means that part of the 1%
maintenance fee for ships in ordinary goes to keep the crew in training.
Perhaps it means that spaceships are much easier to run than WWII ships.

>>>That would seem make sense wouldn't it? but would it happen? 
> 
>>If it didn't, why is Trin still reactivating ships in 1123? Even with 8
>>times the standing navy in mothball Trin is behind. it should have 
>>reactivated that many in a little less than 6 years. (Wait, I may be 
>>overlooking the finances; the shipyards wouldn't be able to afford to
>>go at full rate of reactivation as the number of ships to be maintained
>>grows. There would be a sliding scale involved. I don't have the energy
>>to do the calculations now).
> 
>The missing factor is repairs to damaged ships and finding those fiddly 
>little out of date parts that got replaced in first line service decades 
>ago and you now find the ship just won't run without :*)

Repairs, granted, but finding those little fiddly bits, no. Remember that
the navy still pays 1% of the purchase price per year to maintain the ship.
A yearly maintenance overhaul only costs 1/10th of that. These ships aren't
mothballed, they are maintained in fighting condition (Mostly. I know that
there are examples of ships needing "nails").

>I've looked around for a better example:
>
>The RN in 1791. [...]
>This gives 176 ships active as against 101 reserve. The reserves are 
>60%-70% of the actives. This percentage stays constant for the RN through 
>out the period (1594 to 1845). I chose the RN because its situation was 
>similiar to that of the 3rd Imperium.

How was their situation similar?

>>1107 to 1110 is more than 2.5 year. Of course, it is too little time to
>>reactivate a huge reserve fleet, but...
> 
>(FFW 1008 days = 2.8 years) No you've missed the point, not
>to reactivate a huge fleet, to build a huge fleet. 

No I didn't. I was saying that if the Imperial Navy traditionally has a huge
reserve fleet laid up in ordinary then the 5FW was too short to get through
it and no new construction would appear. However, if it only had a few ships
in ordinary then it would have, at least, 1 to 2 years worth of shipbuilding
more than that in 1117.

>>What you say makes sense, but any way you look at it the figures are odd. I
>>don't insist on an 800% reserve, but you get some undesirable effects in 
>>other parts of our assumptions if we assume only 50%.
> 
>As far as I can see the only effect is that because there aren't a huge 
>surplus of ships laying around in reserve states at war will tend to spend 
>much of their now increase military budgets on building new ships. 

No, the major effect is that in that case the Imperium isn't using almost
half it's budget on maintaining ships in ordinary, which means that it is,
apparently, spending a lot less than _TCS_ and _Striker_ indicates. Even
_with_ that assumption the Imperium is apparently only spending CrImp36 per
citizen on its navy. Assuming that the Imperium uses 60% of its revenue on
the Navy, that means the Imperium gets CrImp60 per citizen. The average
citizen is TL 12, which means his homeworld's credits are worth approximately
0.6 CrImp, which means that he is paying 100 Cr to the Imperium. This
represent 30% of his total military spending, which means that he spends
Cr333.3 on his military. Since he makes Cr16.000 per year, military spending
is very close to 2%. (This figure is too high, actually, because there is a
correlation between high-population worlds and world TL, so the above-
average citizen pays disproportionately more, but let that slide for the
moment). With, say, 50% of the active navy in ordinary, the average
expenditure drops to CrImp21 per citizen, which means the military spending
is only 1,17%.

This implies that the military spending of the Imperium's major opponents
are also similarily low, which indicates a far more cordial relationship
with the Zhodani and the Solomani that the background implies.

It also means that the wartime expenditures of the Imperium (15% of GNP) is 
not 5 times greater than its peacetime expenditure like _Striker_ suggests,
or even 7.5% greater as my figures suggests, but almost 13 times greater.

Alternatively, the average size of Imperial ships about 300,000 T (that's
_average_. The 1000 ships per sector figure includes everything from 5000
T escorts and up).

>Which is what happens historically. 

That is what happened historically to surface ships on one world. Not what
"happened" historically to spaceships in three Imperiums

>If the number of ships in reserve is much above 100% of the number in active
>service then they are building ships just to go into reserve. I just can't 
>see any sane government allowing that to happen (Imagine the headline "Navy 
>builds ships which are never used").

It just takes a slightly more cautious attitude. The Vilani influence, 
perhaps? I admit that _I_ would have twice as many ships and a lot less
reserves, but I'm not running a government with more than 10,000 years
of historical baggage.

Btw. I can give you one historical example of building ships that were never
used. Before the Napoleonic Wars Denmark had developed a tradition for
having a huge fleet (Some 40 SoLs, I think), much more than they could 
afford to man. The idea was that it would act as a deterrent. We only
needed a few months to field (if that's the word when ships are involved)
a very strong fleet (at least on paper; apparently noone worried about
the quality of the crews. Go figure). Unfortunately we also laid up most
of the ships we did man each winter, so the sneaky English attacked in
spring before we could rig out the fleet.

Nevertheless, I agree that an 800% reserve fleet is unlikely. OTOH, so is
a low military expenditure.




      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #824
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 10 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 825



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Traveller Items Available
Re: [T96#820] Size in the Sky
Re: dragonfire.net Traveller Web Sites
Hail the Commander!
Re: Problems with Starship Luxury Liner
trading with low tech worlds
Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #823
Old Info on New T4 Products (long)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #824
Transcript of SSDS IRC session
My last message
Re: dragonfire.net Traveller Web Sites
Imperium Games Website [LONG]
Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues 
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #824
New guy questions!
[none]
IG Web *isn't* moving!
Re: dragonfire.net Traveller Web Sites
Re: dragonfire.net Traveller Web Sites
Re: CT Items for Sale

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 16:41:02 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Traveller Items Available

Flash Flash Flash

A copy of Brilliant Lances and 2 copies of Regency Sourcebook have
become available in a mall retail outlet here in Dallas. Prices
are standard retail. If anybody is interested in these, let me know
and we'll discuss how I can get them to you. For those across the
ponds, BL runs US$30 and I believe the Sourcebooks run US$20 (I need
to confirm this). There was also a copy of TNE Book 1, also at retail,
some MT at discount, and some of the CT Animal Encounters booklets at
discount.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 97 17:35:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T96#820] Size in the Sky

Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp> hath scriven...

T::>The planet (moon) is orbiting the gas giant on the equatorial plane (with 0
 ::>degrees tilt - perhaps because it is tidally locked - one orbit=1 day).  The
 ::>gas giant has a 25 degree axial tilt.  This also helps with the sticky
 ::>problem of having solar eclipses every day for a few hours, because the gas
 ::>giant won't block the sun every day around noon.  Actually, it just reduces
 ::>the frequency of eclipses.  I think I would get daily solar eclipses around
 ::>the vernal and autumnal equinoxes (gas giant's), right?

T::>How would I calculate when the eclipses would occur and for how long?

 This is _hairy_!  Hairy enough to make the previous problem
 look like a cue ball! We'll need to know the following data,
 just to _start_ on this problem:

        1.      The subtension of the GG in the planet's sky
                (given as ~28 degrees)

        2.      The tilt of the GG axis (given as 25 degrees)

        3.      The subtension of the solar disc

        4.      The period and range of declination of the GG
                (your tilt and his may not be the same) (period
                is given as "one day", as it's tidally locked -
                but how long is a day?)

        5.      The period and range of solar declination

        6.      The latitude of observation.

        7.      Your period around the GG

        8.      Your diameter

        9.      Your distance from the GG

 Note that all periods need to be in the same units.

 It will take me quite some time to derive the correct formula,
 even if I have the math - which I may not!  This is a dynamic
 system; I have lots of trouble with them.

 Some information that may be useful:

 As you move from a latitude equal to the declination of the GG,
 the specific 28 degrees that the GG covers in the sky will move
 by an equal amount, but in the opposite direction.

 If the sun and the planet are at the same declination, you will
 get at least a partial eclipse every slightly more than one
 revolution around the GG at any point within a band 28 degrees
 in width, and a total eclipse in the same interval at any point
 within a band (28 - solar subtension) degrees in width centered
 on the same location.

 If the solar declination is different from the GG declination,
 the above situation will obtain for any period in which the
 solar declination falls within the indicated limits.

 Totality will last for (28-solar subtension)/360 of the GG
 rotational period, given that the planet is tidally locked to
 the GG. The entire eclipse, including partiality, will last for
 (28+solar subtension)/360 of the GG rotational period.  This
 assumes equator-to-equator contact for the eclipse; if contact
 is off-center, then use (28*secant(solar declination from GG))
 instead of 28 for a good approximation; for a better
 approximation, use secant(solar declination from GG) instead of
 solar subtension.  I think; I'm sort of trying to
 gedankeneyeball this.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Monsters come in many forms.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 16:42:20 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: dragonfire.net Traveller Web Sites

Ethan Henry wrote:
> 
> Hello to those with sites at Dragonfire.net
> (ie. The person running the Traveller Web Ring)
> 
> Is dragonfire dead, or what? I can't seem to get
> through and doing a traceroute there seemed to take me through
> a router in the dorm of some small american college...
> 
> anyways, any idea when your site might be back up?

My understanding, Ethan, is that Dragonfire has been down
for some time. I haven't heard any estimate for it coming back
up.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:41:07 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Hail the Commander!

I'd like to thank CmdrX for filling in for me on short notice when I was
unable to do the SSDS walkthru. he's a gentleman and a scholar!

                        Allen, zonked out on antibiotics...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:24:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Problems with Starship Luxury Liner

The biggest problem with the King Richard was the type of passenger it
attracted.
dsf
Pete-Can we have Madeline?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:25:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: trading with low tech worlds

In a message dated 97-01-08 shadow wrote:

>"Magic" fits into a low tech society without hurting anything. So what
>if a few people have "magic lights" that they got by trading with the
>"sky people". Does that *change* the culture or the technology? Nope.
>
>

People with magic lights who talk to sky people could change a culture. Even
if a culture already has various beliefs concerning magic, it is doubtful
that high tech artifacts are going to fit seamlessly into the pevailing
mythos. If the sky people visit on a regular basis, myths will be created to
explain them. The legends and lessons in the myths will be changed. For good
or for ill, who knows?

Wizards or preists can weild a great deal of power, and can change the social
structure completely. A noble class of Magicians could be created, based upon
nothing more than the possesion of a flashlight. An entire religon built
around a radio. 

Fear of the unknown could also cause the populace to hunt down and kill
anyone trafficing with the "sky people". Wizards with magic lights also be
seen as a threat to "decent folk". The Salem hysteria and Europe's witch
hunts of the 1600's stand as evidence. Not only would this attitude stunt the
planet's technological growth (scientific experimentation would most likely
be illegal), but the Imperium would have a tough time trying to get the
people to accept them when the time comes to invite the planet into the fold.
If the populace has always been taught that sky people are evil,  how are the
scouts going to be treated when they do try to make contact?

True, I'm speaking of an extreme scenario, but the possiblity exists, and the
Scout would have to consider it.
dsf

(please bear with me, i was unable to spell check this -d-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 16:47:38 -0800
From: David Bullock <dbullock@cris.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #823

>Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:35:00 -0500
>From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
>
>The TNS page has all the old TNS posts from the old JTAS magazines, most of 
>them anyway.  Dates range from 1105-1107  Right about the time of the 5th 
>Frontier war.  This is not M:0, but interesting to say the least.  As I only 
>have a few of the old JTAS, this is a good thing for me.
>
>I am making an assumption that they are going to put all TNS logs from all 
>the JTAS mags on the site CT(1-24) and then M:0(25+)
>
>Of course, I have been known to be wrong before.

No, you're not wrong.  However I may be asking the list for some help in
collecting the news at a later point.  I'm missing some
Journals/Challenges, and what not.

Dave Bullock

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:34:05 -0400
From: Christian Razukas <chrisraz@clark.net>
Subject: Old Info on New T4 Products (long)

So I'm minding my own business, cleaning out my hard drive, when I noticed
this message downloaded last year from a usenet newsgroup.  I did not write
it.  I hope this is not old news to everyone; I trust that list newbies
might find the data interesting.  Certainly don't want to waste that
bandwidth....

"Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Traveller -- What's Going On?
Date: 1 Mar 1996 00:31:15 -0500

A friend of a friend of a friend sent me this little note from one Ken
Whitman, alleged marketing flack for one "Imperium Games":

******MILIEU 0: The Third Imperium.******

The essential background for adventuring in Traveller is provided in a
number of Milieu books, each detailing an era in the long history of
mankind in space. Milieu 0 chronicles the emergence of the Third Imperium
from  the Long Night, extending its reach to re-explore and re-conquer the
vast interstellar territories that have been untouched for 1700 years.
Covers the early years of the Third Imperium, its history, structure,
economics, and library data. Also includes many adventure hooks and adds
direction to players and Referees. Marc Miller.

Other Milieu Books will include (among others): The Aslan Border Wars, The
Vargr Wars, The Barracks Emperors, The Rule of Man, Ziru Sirkaa, The
Solomani Rim War, The Zhodani Core Expeditions, and The Interstellar Wars.

******FIRST SURVEY******

This vital companion to Milieu 0 is an atlas of the 50 or so sectors that
were the Vilani Empire and its surrounding territories. The star systems of
the Sylean Federation are well defined. Farther and farther out, systems
are less well-defined. Each adventuring group determines its own survey
results for each system they visit. Lester Smith.

******Third Imperium Weapons******

Players and Referees will be thrilled to buy this complete book of Imperium
weapons. Weapons include melee, small arms, heavy weapons and artillery.
This guide will include graphic detail and history behind the weapons use
in the Imperium. Greg Porter.

******Adventure Class Ships******

Now it is time to add some detail to the players lives with this complete
book of Adventure Class ships.  Not only will this book supply a player
with new 100+ ton ships, it allows them to design their own ships, just the
way they want them. Don Perrin.

******Anomalies******

The records of the past don't mesh with what should be out there. This is
the first EPIC adventure designed specifically for the Referee in mind.
Marc Miller.

******Pocket Empires******

When Cleon established the Third Imperium, he never expected he would have
competition from his own scouts, merchants, and naval officers. Thousands
of adventurers tried to conquer worlds and establish their own empires in
the vast, uncharted territories not yet under Imperial rule. Strategic
level rules for establishing Pocket Empires. Marc Miller.

******Handbook of the Psionic Institutes******

When the Psionic Institutes began studying this abstract science, they just
didn't know what a bag of worms they opened. Are they a bunch of crackpots,
or is there something there? Ken Whitman.

******Small Craft******

If Adventure ships just wasn't enough, then you may want to explore the
world of small craft.  Not only will this book supply a player with new
ships less then 100 tons, it allows them to design their own ships,
including fighters. Don Perrin.

 ******MILIEU 200: Aslan Border Wars******

The Aslan Border Wars went on for thousands of years. This book details the
wars and the territories they were fought over. Includes major coverage of
the Aslan and how to play them. Lester Smith & Tim Brown.

******TRAVELLER: Strategic Battles******

Warfare is still the ultimate system for resolving disputes between the
stars. This board game, based on Fifth Frontier War, provides the mechanism
for fighting battles large and small anywhere within the Traveller
universe. Recreates historical battles and allows generation and resolution
of new ones. Meshes with Pocket Empires. Marc Miller. "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 16:52:50 -0800
From: David Bullock <dbullock@cris.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #824

>Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 14:19:18 -0800
>From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
>Subject: IG's New Web Address
>
>Apologies if everyone is already aware of the following:
>
>IG is moving their Web site. Their new URL is:
>
>http://206.251.237.44/index.html

Actually the site name of

	http://www.imperiumgames.com

is NOT changing.  The situation is that we're in the middle of shifting
servers from the old server to the new high performance server.  Since the
old web pages were deleted before I could get the new site up, we had to
scramble to get the new pages responding to the old name.

So now "www.imperiumgames.com" is pointing to another interim server of
mine, which will then auto-forward browsers to the new address until we get
the pointers shifted around.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:04:27 CST
From: galliand@juno.com (Scott M Galliand)
Subject: Transcript of SSDS IRC session

I know this is too late, bu would it be possible for someone to post a
trqnscript of tonight's SSDS walkthrough.  Unfortunately, I can't make it
tonight.  Thanks.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:17:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: My last message

Oops!

My last message, in repyl to the GDWGAMES Sale, was obviouslty not supposed
to go to the list...my apologies.

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:17:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: dragonfire.net Traveller Web Sites

At 16:06 09/01/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello to those with sites at Dragonfire.net
>(ie. The person running the Traveller Web Ring)

Dragonfire is having big difficulties now,and I don't know when my site,
TravWeb Central (http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/) will be up again.

However, it can be found, courtesy of Chris Cox on his AOL account.
However, being the ninkumpoop I am, I forgot the URl.  Goto
http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter and there's a pointer

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 17:40:04 -0800
From: David Bullock <dbullock@cris.com>
Subject: Imperium Games Website [LONG]

Hi Everyone

Hopefully this will be the last unsolicited intrusion for a while from me.
I didn't really see a need to introduce myself, but Joe Heck suggested I
may want to so that people know who I am, and why I'm posting about the
Imperium Games website.

First of all, I'm not an employee of Imperium Games.  I'm an independant
contractor who has taken on managing the IG website.  My consulting
company, and our provider of choice (OPX) are providing the web hosting,
html design, and internet support for the Imperium Games web presence.

I _have_ been blessed with a lot of support from the highest level of
Imperium Games in revamping the website.  They're working hard to get all
the products out the door, and they're planning a **LOT** of things for
Traveller, which will be announced on the site.

As for my background, <BORING ON> I'm 27 (28 in two weeks), and I've been
playing Traveller since the first time I saw Azhanti High Lightning, and
the Serpent Class Scout by Paranoia Press in the 7th grade and got hooked.
I'm engaged to a lovely woman with an 8 year old (I knew experience
fighting aliens would come in useful SOMEWHERE).  I've been working in
computers for about 16 years, and I have two cats and my web page is at
http://www.cris.com/~dbullock <BORING OFF>

I am working hard to bring the IG pages up to speed, and I GREATLY
appreciate both the great encouragement/reviews/kudos/attaboys I've
recieved from so many people, and the help I've received from others (like
Chris Cox's (Draconis Cluster) artwork), and the suggestions for changes
from others.

Just as a note - The site is being hand coded by myself in HTML, and is
tested the same day changes are made using Lynx, Netscape 3.0, and Internet
Explorer 3.01.  I'm primarily coding using HTML 2, although as time goes on
I'll be using HTML 3.0 features like cascading style sheets and what not.
The site itself is sitting on a high performance Pentium UNIX server
running Apache, with CGI's I'm writing, and a T3 connection.

Also, here are some site statistics (we've been up about 3 days)

Log Analysis On:  Thu Jan 9 18:04:19 GMT 1997
Actual Hit Breakdown:
   Main Page:                1171 <--- under 3 days
   IG News:                  238
   Contact IG:               86
   Products:                 176
   JTAS Submissions:         33
   Other Sites:              270
   Credits:                  43
   Trav News Service:        437
   Trav News Service 1105:   166
   Trav News Service 1106:   79
   Trav News Service 1107:   64
   Trav News Service 1108:   64

One of the other features I'm adding is a "WEBSITE NEWSLETTER" (The
subscription form is on the OTHER SITES/LINKS page.  We'll be using the
Website Newsletter as an adjunct to the normal NEWS page to make sure that
you get major important news right away.  I encourage everyone to subscribe
to the newsletter.

Part of the goal for the new IG site is that the days of "OK it says Last
Updated December 2, and it's January 5" are over.  I'll be active, and
involved, and expanding the site services, including live Traveller chat,
Traveller message systems, and lots of availability by myself and others.

Well I can't think of anything else and I hate hearing [watching] myself
talk, so that's about it.  If anyone has ANY questions please feel free to
email me directly.

------------------------------

Date: 09 Jan 97 20:30:56 EST
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues 

Earl put forth.....

I once looked into the issue of element distribution across stellar 
generations.  It was years ago.  But I recall learning that when 
astronomers speak of "metals," they tend to mean any elements heavier
than helium (the bulk of which ARE metals, after all).  As far as they
are concerned, there's hydrogen, helium, and "metals." 

		having just taken (and PASSED!;->) an astro course here at
Dartmouth, I can vouch for the better part of the above. Metals are only
abundant in later generation stars, and amongst those, the older in actual
years the better. Mass also plays a part.

  "Metals" are 
all created by the same processes in novae and supernovae. 

		er, not exactly. Briefly, as a star starts out, its is mostly
Hydrogen and Helium. as time goes by, burning off of hydrogen brings about more
helium, burning of helium brings about othr elements(and in some cases, Novae)
which over shorter and shorter cycles bring us to the end phases of silicon and
iron. No matter how much mass is pressing on iron, it resists burning. But the
final stages happen SO fast and involve such pressures that the resulting rush
to the bottom of the gravity well either 1)'bounces' and explodes, bring us a
supernova and spreading all those nice heavy elements(metals) leaving behind a
neutron star or 2) pushes the core beyond its own gravitational area, going
supernova and creating a black hole (AND still spewing much metals to the solar
winds).  

 So I am not
sure iron will lag that far behind silicon in early-generation stars.

		by a very small degree astronomically. anywhere from minutes to
days in reality.

I think there will be the same proportions of the heavier elements, just
not much of them.

		relatively true, but think of the actual volume of the stars in
question: a star has to be (as I recall) no less than 30 solar masses or
greater to even get to the silicon/iron stage. Taking into account the
percentages, you could still probably make quite a few solar systems out of
nothig but the core elements of ONE massive star....

Whether that means such stars will have few rocky worlds or small rocky
worlds, or something in between, I have never been able to figure out

		Its all distribution, and usually dependent on the interstallar
medium the star is formed from: Keep in mind, protostars form out of big clouds
of cool materials, condense, ignite, and only THEN is there enough material
thrown off to start to form solar systems. 

- -j

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:33:34 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #824

>is NOT changing.  The situation is that we're in the middle of shifting
>servers from the old server to the new high performance server.  Since the
>old web pages were deleted before I could get the new site up, we had to
>scramble to get the new pages responding to the old name.

If I may say so, your doing a great job in your 'scramble'.  The only thing
I'd request is that you get a copy of the errata online soon, as I saw one
or two requests for it on Usenet.  I did direct those people to the list for
the _complete_ errata so I don't know if anything's happening.  But, it's
still probably a good idea.

I'm really anxious to see what some of these features will be, such as
contest, play-by-email and others.  Also, my site is _finally_ listed in
Other Links!  :)

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:52:07 +1000
From: PARISC@complete.com.au (Paris Conte)
Subject: New guy questions!

- --_[INTERGATE-SMTP377971805]_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Just a couple of quick questions:

1) Where do I look on the net to find information pertaining to the   
setting of T4, so I can get a "feel" for the game?
2) Are there any campaign setting developers, on the net, that are   
looking for out side input? (Prefer an Australian group, but I would like   
to get involved in any group!)

Hope to hear something soon!

Paris Conte
Parisc@complete.com.au



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AMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADiFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAD0AAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAAwANNP03AAAOUg==


- --_[INTERGATE-SMTP377971805]_--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:33:39 -0500 (EST)
From: cohiba@netaxs.com (MattK)
Subject: [none]

        Unsuscribe cohiba@netaxs.com (MattK) 
"A Cigar Is Never Just A Cigar" 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 21:20:45 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: IG Web *isn't* moving!

David Bullock wrote:
> 
> >Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 14:19:18 -0800
> >From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
> >Subject: IG's New Web Address
> >
> >Apologies if everyone is already aware of the following:
> >
> >IG is moving their Web site. Their new URL is:
> >
> >http://206.251.237.44/index.html
> 
> Actually the site name of
> 
>         http://www.imperiumgames.com
> 
> is NOT changing.  The situation is that we're in the middle of shifting
> servers from the old server to the new high performance server.  Since the
> old web pages were deleted before I could get the new site up, we had to
> scramble to get the new pages responding to the old name.
> 
> So now "www.imperiumgames.com" is pointing to another interim server of
> mine, which will then auto-forward browsers to the new address until we get
> the pointers shifted around.
> 
> Dave

Apologies for any confusion I may have caused. Thanks for the details,
Dave. Looking forward to checking out the new server.

BTW, I have all the JTAS (except for #4 which is on the way), all
the Challenge magazines (including the newest one by IG!), and all DGP
material. If anyone has any questions re: this material, feel free to
email me.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 21:35:52 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: dragonfire.net Traveller Web Sites

Peter J. Miller wrote:
> 
> Dragonfire is having big difficulties now,and I don't know when my site,
> TravWeb Central (http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/) will be up again.
> 
> However, it can be found, courtesy of Chris Cox on his AOL account.
> However, being the ninkumpoop I am, I forgot the URl.  Goto
> http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter and there's a pointer

Just checked it out. WOW! Peter, you and Chris have done an
awesome job! Everybody, the direct URL is
http://members.aol.com/mrkosmos/travweb/index.htm

All newbies should definitely take a look at this one.
Special kudos to K. Bearden for the Grand Adventure and
the writeup on TL16 neural pistols.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:50:34 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: dragonfire.net Traveller Web Sites

At 21:35 09/01/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Just checked it out. WOW! Peter, you and Chris have done an
>awesome job! Everybody, the direct URL is
>http://members.aol.com/mrkosmos/travweb/index.htm

Thanks very much.  BTW, the cheap graphics with white backgrounds (ie. mine
<g>) will be replaced soon, with Chris Cox originals :)

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:44:01 -0500
From: "Bill Beane" <concord-tech@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: CT Items for Sale

I would like the Tarsus module.....just let me know if I get it.....

- ----------
> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: CT Items for Sale
> Date: Thursday, January 09, 1997 3:31 PM
> 
> CLASSIC TRAVELLER ITEMS FOR SALE
> 
>  I am disposing of duplicate items from my personal
>  collection. Prices as noted, customer pays shipping. 
>  Shipping (Within the United States) is $3.00 regardless
>  of the number of items ordered. Customers outside the
>  US may request any form of shipment they are willing
>  to pay for (price will vary depending upon method).
> 
> If desired, I will autograph any item at no extra charge.
> 
>  Payment must be by check or money order in US funds,
>  drawn on a US bank, and payable to Loren K. Wiseman.
> 
>  Please respond directly to 
> 
>     GDWGAMES@AOL.COM
> 
>  or via snail mail to 
> 
>  Loren K. Wiseman
>  POB 1646
>  Bloomington, IL 61702-1646 
>  USA
> 
>  I have duplicates of several of the items listed below,
>  which are offered first come, first served. I will
>  reserve any item(s) for 30 days in response to Email notification
>  (60 days for overseas). All booklets are in very good to
>  excellent condition.
> 
>  Tarsus (boxed adventure module) in original shrink wrap* $10
>  * unless autographed, in which case I will have to open the wrap : )
> 
>  Best of the Journal
>   #1      $5
>   #2      $5
>   #3      $5
>   #4      $5
> 
>  Double Adventures
>   #1 Shadows/Annic Nova     $5
>   #3 Argon Gambit/Death Station     $5
> 
>  Adventures
>  
>  #13 Signal GK       $5
> 
>  Books
>  #6 Scouts     $7
> 
>  I also have one copy of Journal of the Travellers' Aid
>  Society issue #1, which I will sell for the best offer over $40.
> 
>   Loren K Wiseman
>       GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #825
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 10 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 826



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Navy reserves
Re: Stars, colours and so on
Re: TNS on IG's website
Re: Vargr forces and reserves (long) (fwd)
Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues
Re: Star type distribution
Re: 3G3 Hardback
Re: Cost of Aliens and CSC
Re: Ship Accomodations
*FLASH* Planet X Suffers Communications
Re: Problems with Starship Luxury Liner
CSC errata
Adventure storyline problem
World Generator
Converting ships
Re: 3G3 Hardback
Re: New guy questions!
Ken Whitman - About Foss
Away for 2 weeks
Re: Adventure storyline problem
[Traveller Answer] Errors in T4 
Re: [T97#824] Dragonfire sites
JTAS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:26:56 +0100
From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

[Lots on navy reserves deleted]

I have only watch your discussion with on eye, and I'm not familiar
with the Varg Invasions, but I still have a question.

Although there is a large reserve fleet (in this I take it you mean
ships, not crew since these has to be reactivated) after the Imperial
fleet is pulled out, where does the worlds get crews for these ships?
I would think that training sufficent crews for 48 million tons of
ships so that they are battle-capable would take some time.

- -- 
Tommy Grav 
Email: tommyg@ifi.uio.no
WWW-Page: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html
"Sooner or later the worst set of circumstances are bound to occur."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:26:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stars, colours and so on

In mail, aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:

> In-Reply-To: <199701080443.XAA18859@Mithril.MPGN.COM>
>
> << >      I seem to remember that stars go in this sequence: 
>>      O B A F G K M  (various mnemonics, mostly obscene) 
>>     
>
> Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me?  I suppose you *could* call that obscene. <g> 
>>>
>
> Depends on where you want her to kiss you...

"Meet me in front of the pawn shop and you can kiss me under the balls!"
 :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:36:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: TNS on IG's website

In mail you write:

> I was scanning through the archived TNS entries when I found one that made
> me spray Coke across the room:
>
>>Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 224-1105
>>    General Shipyards has reported 276 confirmed break-ins of its scrapyard
>>at Regina during the last six months and is considering instituting a "take
>>a number" system
>
> Now that is priceless..

At a bit over 1.5 break-ins a day, they might as well do it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:50:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Vargr forces and reserves (long) (fwd)

In mail you write:

> Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
> Subject:  Re:  Vargr forces and reserves (long)
>
>> Actually importing 1kg of food per person per day requires a little
>> under 71,500 Td of cargo space (14,000 Kg per Td) per billion.
>
> You might want to consider that fact that the usual starship cycle time is
> 14 days per jump (28 days for a round trip), and that your people might want
> to be fed more than once every 28 days, not to mention downtime for annual
> maintenance.  So it's more like 1kg*1E9 people*30 day cycle=3E10 kg/capacity.
> Figure food at 1000kg/kl = 3E7 kl / 14 kl/dt = 2.1E6 cargo capacity =
> 4.2E6 dt of shipping at .5 MCr/dt = 2.1E6 MCr/billion people/jump.

Which works out to 2100 Cr per person per jump per 30 day cycle. Or 70
Cr per person per jump per day.

Seems rather expensive to me. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 22:56:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>> Also, second generation stars are thought to be *much* poorer in
>> metals than third generation stars like Sol. So while they'd have
>> things like silicon and oxygen (and thus rocks), they'd be
>> noticeably lacking in elements heavier than iron. Someday I hope to
>> corner someone into giving a "guesstimate" with more detail than
>> that, so I can draw up a rough abundances table for such stars."

> I once looked into the issue of element distribution across stellar 
> generations.  It was years ago.  But I recall learning that when 
> astronomers speak of "metals," they tend to mean any elements heavier
> than helium (the bulk of which ARE metals, after all).  As far as they
> are concerned, there's hydrogen, helium, and "metals."

I was aware of this, but didn't mention it since it makes little
difference to my comments.

> "Metals" are all created by the same processes in novae and
> supernovae.

Not true. "Metals" are formed to a greater or lesser extent in *all*
stars as they reach the later stages of their lives. Very low mass
stars may never even get to helium burning, simply because they aren't
massive enough to supply the required pressures. Other, more massive
stars will burn helium in the core when they run out of hydrogen. Still
more massive stars burn heavier elements. Until you get to a star
massive enough to star producing iron. At that point things get different.
You get a *loss* of energy, core collapse, and a supernova.

Novas seem to involve white dwarfs or neutron stars with close
companions. And they are a matter of hydrogen accumulating on the
surface until it there's enough to detonate from the pressure. This
won't produce lots of heavy elements, though it can spread some of the
elements in the surface layers around. In extreme cases you get a
different kind of supernova, which completely destroys the star.

Anyway, it takes a nova or supernova to *spread* the heavy elements so
that they can be incorporated into a new star system.

> So I am not sure iron will lag that far behind silicon in
> early-generation stars.  I think there will be the same proportions
> of the heavier elements, just not much of them.

First generation stars formed from nebula containing *no* metals. Thus
any planets formed will be hydrogen & helium exclusively. Which limits
them to gas giants and iceballs.

The novas and supernovas of the more massive first generation stars
will enrich the interstellar medium in metals, thus when the medium
accumulates into a nebula dense enough to form second generation stars,
there will be some metals in the planets formed. Ditto for the stars.
So they'll be able to have rocky worlds as well as gas giants and
iceballs. 

When second generation stars go supernova that adds still more metals
to the interstellar medum. When this doubly enriched medium accumulates
into stars and planets, you get third generation stars and their
planets. That's us, about 15 billion years from the earliest stars.

Fourth generation stars are forming now... 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 06:31:01 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Star type distribution

Somebody wanted data on the relative abundances of star types. I have some
rough estimates I downloaded from somebody's webpage, but I forgt whose.
Hope this is the information you needed.

Glenn

- ---------------

Stellar distribution information, courtesy of Edward Swatschek:
- ----------------------------------------------------------
        %
   ------
   M   70
   K   15
   G   10
   F    4
   A    1

Steller density: 80 systems per 1000 cubic parsecs (average separation of
1.4 parsecs).

Of the closest 26 star systems,
    65% solitary (17)
    17% binary (8)
     4% trinary (1)

Of those 36 stars,
    92% main sequence (33)
     8% white dwarf (3)

Two of the three white dwarfs (DA) are part of binary systems, and circle
the two most luminous stars (Sirius and Procyon). The final one is a
solitary DG.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."
                  -- Trevor Goodchild

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:02:15 +0800
From: "Benjamin Barton" <aramis3d@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: 3G3 Hardback

what happen to ther home page.  I went look at AOL and itcame up with  not 
there.

- ----------
> From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
> To: traveller digest <traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM>; btrc@AOL.COM
> Subject: 3G3 Hardback
> Date: Saturday, January 04, 1997 6:43 PM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:23:02 GMT
From: Neil Taylor <neil@uk.gdscorp.com>
Subject: Re: Cost of Aliens and CSC

Sorry to be late posting comments on these books and their prices - 
but they've only just arrived on the shelves in the UK. (Of the 2 
shops I patronise, one has one hasn't got them.) 

They're 15 pounds here, which is $21 at $1.40 conversion rates. At #15 
each for 2 slim books I palled at the thought.... 

I flipped through Aliens and thoguht - this is *gross* - HUGE typeface 
looking like it was chosen to pad out the pages (not that there are 
many...). I put the books back on the shelf, and looked along to Atlas 
Games Ars Magica 4th Ed: 272 pages for #20. 

Sorry guys, Traveller just dropped off my shopping list, until they 
put more value into their books. I can understand not dropping the 
price (they need the revenue), but the public here isn't going to 
loved them at this price- to-page ratio, Foss art or no! 

If they can drop the colour plates, drop Foss's royalties and the 
colour costs and spend the money of *writing*, I might come back 
again. 

Aliens might be useful, but it struck me as one of the worst value 
supplements I've picked up in a long time. I felt cheated just looking 
at the print size... 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:38:17 +0000
From: "Simon J. Osborne" <simon.osborne@ukonline.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ship Accomodations

> From:          Neveron@aol.com
> Date:          Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:58:49 -0500 (EST)
> Subject:       Re: Ship Accomodations

> In a message dated 97-01-06 10:15:23 EST, you write:
> 
> >OTOH, it's quite possible that people will have a more Japanese attitude
> >toward their sleeping spaces a few thousand years from now. If that's true,
> >and we have gravity control, then even a half ton will be plenty for the
> >sleeping compartment...walk into a stand-up "closet", turn on zero-g, and
> >go to sleep.  <g> You might have your storage in the same space, or down in
> >the hole.  The "facilities" would be down the corridor.  Most living space
> >would be in commons areas.
> 
> You have to be strapped to something or you'll drift towards the air vents.
> Me, I could never sleep standing up.
> 

So why not rotate the direction of gravity by 90 degrees and sleep
against the "wall"?

Si 
- -- 
Simon J. Osborne
Appearing as: simon.osborne@ukonline.co.uk
Also appearing as: simon@hms.csc.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:41:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: *FLASH* Planet X Suffers Communications

>>News Flash<<***For Immediate Release****Priority:RED***

The following is a message sent to SuzD from Commader X at 009-0001 from 
XTech Industries.

*>EMERGENCY TRANSMISSION<*
*>(009-0001  DSS-X "Planet-X" AX00513-C)<*

<braazzz>....Comman<bleep>...To..Suz<fraaaapzzz>...
This is Com&dr X Calling Suzette Doll&&**6....

My main, comm...tor has been shut down by an unknown agent,  Using aux 
backup...

Bottom line, basic mail only vial this node, canot log on to IRC! :(
Shutdown apparently occured at 5pm EST, so that it was unnoticed while I was 
updating X.net files at work.

I kinda knew this might happen, but i didn't relize how incompetent the 
managemnet at my roomies work was (OOC---They forgot to pay the bloody ISP 
bill!)

This is not a prob, but for tonight there is a prob, I am sory i canot be on 
IRC tonight to help with SSDS.

Tommorrow i hope to be able to get my own ISP account so that i don't have 
to worry bout it any more.

Again my appologies

"Planet X goes off the air imediately, We keep the flame...good luck"
 P.S. email this account for correspondance


The Commander can not begin to express his appologies enough for letting 
down those who had expected to hear from the CEO and Chief Engineer of 
 XTech on the IRC  E-Frequency network.  The Commander has read the posts to 
this mail list regarding his good character and helpful nature, and feels 
like a "1st class heel" by not showing up.  Hopefuly the Administrator of 
the IRC channel recieved the Transmission sent via jump carrier in time.

The Commander would like to state that e-mail is still available via both 
chanels (bprankard@theiia.org)  (CmdrX74627@aol.com)

The Site is sitll up and running, but the access codes for modifation have 
been disabled.

The Commander wanted to leave you with this final quote from some obscure 
Ancient Solomani 2D entertainment projection.

"It's not my fault!....They told me they fixed it!"

This concludes this communique from XTech Industries

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 07:49:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Problems with Starship Luxury Liner

On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 Neveron@aol.com wrote:

> The biggest problem with the King Richard was the type of passenger it
> attracted.

Not to mention the crew.

> dsf
> Pete-Can we have Madeline?
> 

"I'm Tired...tired of being admired..."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:43:02 -0600
From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: CSC errata

Is there anyone compiling errata for the Central Supply Catalog?

Well here is one:

page 65, paragraph heading Contragrav and Thruster
Plates:........High-efficiency contragrav becomes all but unless (1% output)
within 1 diameter of a world, ....... 

I thought that contragrav(antigrav) were useful out to 100 diameters.

If no one is compiling the errata, I will volunteer to do it, Damn where did
that come from! <G>
US N.A.V.Y. (Never Again Volunteer Yourself) well I guess I will never learn.

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:47:35 +0100
From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se>
Subject: Adventure storyline problem

	Every time i get a new version of a RPG with a different storyline i do a
nice sidestep to the new with a cool adventure binding them together. 

This is my problem:

A couple of adventures ago they got their filthy hands on a hitech trader
from the lost civilisation of Arcane (TL:21) and had to fight of a lot of
drewling greedos just to keep that thing. In this adventure they happen to
slip into a plot to capture this ship by the military and because of that
has an accident wich either:

1. Damages the ship so bad they have to enter the cold berths just to stay
alive while their robot (also got him from the lost civ)drives them out of
harms way. It will take him 86 years approx. and by then the ship is ready
for the scrapyards.

2. Is attaced by the same military and because of the energy discharge
produced by the shields they do a time/space jump when entering J-space
leaving it 86 years later with so much dammage they have to enter cold
berths to stay alive.

In the end they will be awakened by the RC wanting to know who they are and
such. Their robot will be missing, carrying the ships specs of that TL, but
only the players will know that.

The question:

How will the reaction be from the base, them knowing these players have
knowledge of vast technology? 
How far will they go to get it?
Will they be able to reproduce the technology to some degree?

Give me some random thought about it will'ya.

	From the Guttmeister A.K.A Goran

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:06:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: World Generator

An interesting URL people might want to check out:

http://www.irony.com/mkworld.html

It generates random world maps! It's the "fantasy" map
generator, but hey, if no one is watching, you
might just be able to slip one into a Trav campaign.

Ethan
ehenry@magma.ca  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:19:54 +0100
From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Subject: Converting ships

I have just converted two of my ships designed with ff&s to t4-format.
They are available at my web-page. Any comments on them will be
appriciated.

- -- 
Tommy Grav 
Email: tommyg@ifi.uio.no
WWW-Page: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html
"Sooner or later the worst set of circumstances are bound to occur."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 07:54:38 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 3G3 Hardback

At 08:02 PM 1/9/97 +0800, you wrote:
>what happen to ther home page.  I went look at AOL and itcame up with  not 
>there.

Funny.. I was just out there yesterday AM.. Could be AOL having one of its fits.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:08:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Led Mirage <lmirage@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: New guy questions!

On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Paris Conte wrote:

> Just a couple of quick questions:
> 
> 1) Where do I look on the net to find information pertaining to the   
> setting of T4, so I can get a "feel" for the game?

There is no one setting per se for T4. IG plans to put out Millieu books
spanning the history of the Third Imperium and beyond (maybe the other
way, too. I thought they wanted to do a Millieu book on The Long Night as
well). M:0, which is the beginning of the Third Imperium emerging from The
Long Night, should be out Real Soon Now.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:03:35 -0500
From: whitman@pensys.com (Ken Whitman)
Subject: Ken Whitman - About Foss

Okay, I've sat back and listened to everyone bash Foss.  Whereas his art
may not be Travelleresque, you have to remember that all of Foss' color
plates are 10+ years or older.  This man has a portfolio of 300+ color
paintings.  Courtney broght him in for two reasons:

1) He has a lot of work we could purchase for second rights, and
2) His name is famous in Hollywood, which would help open doors for a
Traveller movie.

We (Courtney and I) went through and picked out color plates.  I being a
fan of Traveller picked only the plates that I felt you could say "Yah,
that feels like Traveller."  Courtney picked the plates that he felt he
could sale to a movie company.

Do I like all of the plates Corney picked? Hell No! But he was financing
the project and I did not feel like telling him what will sell to the big
movie companies.

Do I think Foss is a great artist? You bet your ass!


*******
But what about his original stuff?

We brought Foss over from England for 3 months.  During that time he
created two color paintings and 225 black and white drawings (WOW, you
figure how fast he was working).  Foss was directed to make "older-looking
ships and equipment" .  I always knew that we would be modernizing the
ships as the timeline progressed.  IT WAS ALL PART OF THE MASTER PLAN.

Now for those of you who think FOSS can't do Traveller-like pictures, boy
are you in for a surprise when you see the cover for Pocket Empires!  An
original Foss made for TRAVELLER.

Now Foss has asked me to sell the original artwork.  The asking price is
$3,500.  If anyone is interested, I would be willing to e-mail a j-peg to
them.  ONLY people interested in PURCHASING this piece should e-mail me at
Whitman@pensys.com.  For the rest of you who are just curious, you will
have to wait.  I am sure it will be on the new website in the matter of a
few weeks.

Description,

It is a war-torn battlefield.   Explosions and burning buildings.  The
natives were warned if they did not surrender their planet, they would
suffer the consequences.  They didn't listen.  Three marines in battledress
are attacking an aircraft.  Two marines are on top of the aircraft firing
guns into the unseen cockpit, while one marine lifts the raft onto its
side, propping it up using his head.  Above, we see a local aircraft
exploding from the laser shot of a superior Imperium fighter .

Overall, a great Traveller feel, and to all of you who don't like Fosses
old stuff...
nana nana boo boo, stick your head in poo poo.-)

Ken Whitman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 97 13:14:32 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Away for 2 weeks

Hi, everyone!

I just wanted to let you know that I haven't fallen through a wormhole into
uncharted space, but am quite busy recovering from the flu, and getting ready
to go on a two-week trip (I'm leaving on Monday the 13th).  I'll try to go
through messages once more and respond to any urgent ones before then.  Once
I get back, I'll be back in earnest: my computer at home is set up and ready
to go for catching up on the backlog of Traveller Answers, NAH writing, and
other projects.

Any Traveller folks that are attending CF8 - well, maybe I'll see you there;
otherwise, I'll be back sometime on January 25th.


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:29:13 -0500
From: Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Adventure storyline problem

>In the end they will be awakened by the RC wanting to know who they are and
>such. Their robot will be missing, carrying the ships specs of that TL, but
>only the players will know that.
>
>The question:
>
>How will the reaction be from the base, them knowing these players have
>knowledge of vast technology? 
>How far will they go to get it?
>Will they be able to reproduce the technology to some degree?
>
>Give me some random thought about it will'ya.
>
>	From the Guttmeister A.K.A Goran
>
>

My RC "Recovery Techs" are on the lookout for such "Metheselahs". Commonly,
they are offered positions in the RC if their ship works, pay to work off
those inevetable "necessary repairs"; or if the ship is no longer
operational, then the corporations are more than happy to have one or more
R&D techs to repair and refurbish TL 15 gear.  But, then again, the ship's
steward is usually out of luck.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 97 13:29:57 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: [Traveller Answer] Errors in T4 

Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
> 1. According to the rules the Fuel rating is the amount of fuel 
>    carried in the ships given in standard displacement tons. 

Right.

>    This means that the light fighter (given in both T4 and
>    Starships) carries only fuel. It has a fuelrating of 10 
>    and a 10 dton size. Whay wasn't the fighter changed in Starships?

The fighter is wrong, in both T4 and Starships.  It was designed before Greg
Porter's vehicle design system was ready, and before there was a workable
small craft design system.  I believe that it wasn't changed in Starships
because there wasn't anything better to replace it with.

> 2. Is there any relationships between shiparmour in FF&S and shiparmour
>    in T4.

Yes.  FF&S armor values (also used in SSDS) should be converted to "USD"
factors (using the table in the back of Starships).  Multiply the USD value
by 10 to use the design with T4.

>    If the converted value from FF&S to T4 should be 
>    multiplied by 10 (this seems right),

It is.

> how can the fighter have a armour value of 8?

The fighter wasn't designed; it was made up (due to the lack of a design
system) to look reasonable.


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 97 14:23:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#824] Dragonfire sites

Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com> hath scriven...

T::>Hello to those with sites at Dragonfire.net
 ::>(ie. The person running the Traveller Web Ring)

T::>Is dragonfire dead, or what? I can't seem to get
 ::>through and doing a traceroute there seemed to take me through
 ::>a router in the dorm of some small american college...

T::>anyways, any idea when your site might be back up?

 Dragonfire has this interesting syndrome -
 "cyberrubberization".  A server suffering from this exhibits
 the symptoms of being down, then up, then down, then up, then
 down, and so on.  The last info I got from them, they were
 down, with more to follow.

 Freelance Traveller
 (http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller when up) is
 mirrored at http://www.execnet.com/~jeffz/freetrav

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  I live by only 2 laws: IDIC and Murphy.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:50:38 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Subject: JTAS

The first thing I noticed was the fact that they forgot to put the 
price on the magazine.

I liked the magazine but felt that it was kinda small for $5.
Things I'd like ta see:
Upcoming product guide
Product reviews

I liked the adventures and the story about Beowulf.  The only problem 
I had with it was the aburpt ending.  Hadta re-read the last part for 
it to make sense.
I also thought the bit about Biotechnology was good.  Perphaps some 
articles will emerge from this NG.  Like Ship construction times, 
starbase construction.

These were my takes.  Gotta finish reading now.

Beowulfe

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #826
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 10 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 827



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Vargr forces
Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues
Re:  Ken Whitman - About Foss
Leviathan Assualt Transport
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #824
Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #823
Re: "Plasma" questions
Re: JTAS
JTAS
Re: Cost of Aliens and CSC
Re: JTAS
Re: Adventure storyline problem
Off-topic but germane
Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss
RE: Off-topic but germane

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:14:04 -0500
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr forces

Hans Rancke wrote:
> Yeesss... The problem here is that the charisma won't go to the Vargr 
> government leaders, it will go to the fleet commanders. It's the classic
> problem of the old Roman emperors with the added twist that it must be
> a lot worse for Vargr and that the Vargr leaders can't go themselves,
> the way some Roman emperors did, because that makes the other part of
> the charsima equation -- distance -- kick in.

On the other hand not leading fleets or supporting them from home could
result in Vargr leaders ending up being ex-Vargr leaders.  I imagine that the
idea of invading the Corridor would have been fairly popular for the
following reasons: The recent Oekhsos' triads had whipped up a fair amount of
anti-Imperium feeling which not only resulting in many Vargr who wanted to go
and show the Impys a thing or two, but also helped unify Vargr in general; 
From a Vargr point of view plundering was not only an accepted way to make
money but being a corsair was a desirable and romantic profession;  Suddenly
Corridor was left "undefended" and many Vargr would feel that this would be
the opportunity of a lifetime.  Of course Corridor wasn't really undefended,
but with the withdrawal of most of the Imperium's fleet and reports of
successful corsair raids in Corridor the perception that Corridor couldn't
properly defend itself would have been there.  Under these circumstances
Vargr leaders who opposed invading Corridor could have found themselves being
replaced by those who advocated invading corridor.  

Chris Cox
(chricox@ix.neytcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:25:05 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues

Leonard Erickson writes
>[reasonable description of metal formation snipped]
>First generation stars formed from nebula containing *no* metals. Thus
>any planets formed will be hydrogen & helium exclusively. Which limits
>them to gas giants and iceballs.

I should note that - lest people think astronomers actually know what
they're talking about and understand everything - no "first generation"
zero-metallicity star has ever actually been found. There are various
theories as to why this should be the case, none of them compelling.
(Possibly the first-generation stars all formed as the protogalaxy was
collapsing and are *way* out in the galactic halo, and possibly only
relatively massive ones that have now all turned into undetectable neutron
stars/white dwarfs formed.)

>second generation stars
>there will be some metals in the planets formed. Ditto for the stars.
>So they'll be able to have rocky worlds as well as gas giants and
>iceballs. 
A second-generation star will generally have ten times less metals than
the sun, so you probably won't get enough concetrated together to make a 
rocky planet - though that depends on which planet formation model you 
believe.

I should also note that for (confusing historical reasons) the 
sunlike current generation of stars is called "Population I", the
earlier second generation stars are called "Population II", and the
still-hypothetical zero-metallicity stars are called "Population III".

Bruce Macintosh
P.S. I'm off to the American Astronomical Society meeting in Toronto
next week...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:49:51 -0600
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Re:  Ken Whitman - About Foss

>
>Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:03:35 -0500
>From: whitman@pensys.com (Ken Whitman)
>Subject: Ken Whitman - About Foss
>
>Okay, I've sat back and listened to everyone bash Foss.  Whereas his art
>may not be Travelleresque, you have to remember that all of Foss' color
>plates are 10+ years or older.  This man has a portfolio of 300+ color
>paintings.  Courtney broght him in for two reasons:
>
>1) He has a lot of work we could purchase for second rights, and
>2) His name is famous in Hollywood, which would help open doors for a
>Traveller movie.

Fair enough. After all, there have been SOOOOO many movies based on all
those other role-playing games. Like, uh, er...

Perhaps thinking about buyers first and Hollywood second would have been a
better plan of attack.

>Do I think Foss is a great artist? You bet your ass!

I don't think many people here would disagree with that. But seeing several
of those plates once was enough (way back when they were first used on old
paperbacks), and most of them were just mis-used.

>*******
>But what about his original stuff?
>
>We brought Foss over from England for 3 months.  During that time he
>created two color paintings and 225 black and white drawings (WOW, you
>figure how fast he was working).

And of course, fast art  equals good art.

>Foss was directed to make "older-looking
>ships and equipment" .  I always knew that we would be modernizing the
>ships as the timeline progressed.  IT WAS ALL PART OF THE MASTER PLAN.

Well, maybe the Master Plan was to blame, then. But I still think that the
equipment illustrations in the main book are unfortunate.

>Now for those of you who think FOSS can't do Traveller-like pictures, boy
>are you in for a surprise when you see the cover for Pocket Empires!  An
>original Foss made for TRAVELLER.

This is great and I'm looking forward to seeing it. Overall, I think things
are SLOWLY getting back in the right direction....

>
>Overall, a great Traveller feel, and to all of you who don't like Fosses
>old stuff...
>nana nana boo boo, stick your head in poo poo.-)

...Then again, I could be mistaken...

John Kovalic




********************************************************
           "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --
*
*              MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
*
********************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:25:03 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
Subject: Leviathan Assualt Transport

Hi,
In Path of Tears they mention several ships, which I assume were going
to be detailed in the book Long Ships, which never came out. :(
So I took it upon myself to detail some of them. First off is the
Leviathan Assualt Transport.  I used SSDS, with a few FFS parts
thrown in.  I included both T4 and FFS design sheets, so even
more people could use the design.  One design consideration, is that
I used thrusters in the design, even though TNE didn't use thrusters,
mainly because I like thrusters.  

I am really interested in feedback, Do YOU think that this ship could
be actually used to carry 1000 troops into battle, with all the
equipment that they need.  

Lewis Roberts
- ------------------------------
Leviathan Assualt Transport

T4 Style Data:
Tons: 5000		Volume:70,000m^3        Cost: 1909.41 MCr
Crew: 157		Passengers H/M:0/5000   Passengers L:0
Cargo: 1513             Controls:Fib Bridge     Tech Level:12

Size Rating: 9	                Jump Rating:2
Fire Control:4		        G Rating/Manuver Drive:2 Thrusters
10x95Mj Laser turrets 2-0-0-0   Power Plant:1
                                Fuel Rating:1050/S /R
				Meson Screen:0
                                Sand Caster:0 
                                Damper:0
                                A:10 P:4 J:10

                                Armor:10    Structure Data:27
Notes:The Leviathan is a streamlined needle.



FFS Style Data:
General Data
 Displacment: 5000 tons     Hull Armor: 20
 Length: 153m               Volume: 70000 m^3
 Price: 1909.41 MCr	    Target Size: M
 Configuration: Needle SL   Tech Level: 12
 Mass (Loaded/Empty) 65,118/34,624

Engineering Data
 Power Plant: 3200MW Fusion. 1 year of fuel (780m^3)
 Jump Performance: 2
 Jump Fuel: 14000m^3
 G-rating: 2
 G-turns: Na (Thrusters) Fuel Scoops and a Fuel Purification Plant
          are installed on board. The plant purifies 700m^3/hour
 Maint: 3117
 
Electronics
 Computer: 3xTL 12 Fib Comps
 Commo: 2x300,000 km Radio, 2x1000 AU Maser, 300,000km Laser       
        10x3000 km Laser Communicator mainly for Missle Designation
 Avionics: TL 10+
 Sensors: 2x300,000 km  AEMS, 120,000 PEMS
 ECM/ECCM: 300,000km EMS Jammer
 Controls: Bridge with 35 WS, and 57 other (Low Automation)

Armament
 Offensive: 10x 95 Mj TL-12 Light Laser Turrets	
           ROF=100, Short Range=10, 40-33-17-8
 Master Fire Directors: 10 TL-12 MFDs, there is no local control of the
                        Laser Turrets
 
Accomadations:
 Life Support: Extended, Grav Compensation
 Crew:157: 57 Engineers, 11 Maintenance, 3 Electronics
           2 Manuver, 10 Gunners, 20 Command Crew, 12 Stewards
           42 Flight Crew, and 1 Medic.  There is room for 1000
           Marines, but they follow their own command structure and
           it is not included here. Stewards for the full complement
           of marines iare included here.

 Staterooms:589 Small Staterooms. Comand Staff have single rooms along
 with the Doctor and Commander of the Fury Squadron. All other crew and
 marines double up.
 Other Facilities: Machine Shop, Electronics Shop and Medical Bay.
                   1000 Planetary Strike Missles (See RCEG) in docking
		   rings, with 1000 reloads stored in a cargo hold not 
		   included in the standard cargo bay.
		   Docking Rings for 500 Drop Capsules.
 Cargo: 21,193m^3. It is expected that each trooper brings about
 1 ton of equipment and supplies, including battle dress suits, weapons,
 ammunition etc. The average soldier won't actually be lugging around this
 much gear, it is an average number.  Many pieces of equipment such as
 field hospitals, artillery pieces take up more room, and are not actually
 assigned to a given soldier.
 Small Craft: 14 Fury Assualt Landers
 Air Locks: 50

 
From Path of Tears pg 38:
       "These ships will provide the Coalition with the capability to
 move large numbers of combat troops from one world to another an conduct
 opposed landings.  Each of these ships will carry a light brigade, and
 include launch facilities for a spearhead battalion of drop troops. 
 Although this capability is not intended for use in combat, the 
 Leviathan wil be streamlined to allow landing on planetary surfaces.
        Proponents of the coreward stategy see these ships as providing
 new capabilites to pacify worlds far out in the AO, while consolidating
 strategists expect that these ships will be used closer to home."

 Designer's Notes:
 POT lists a brigade as having three batallions of roughly 500 soldiers each.
 I assumed a light brigade was one with only two battalions.  The ship is
 also supposed to be able to drop a spearhead battalion into combat. I 
 figured that 400 soldiers and 100 dummy capsules dropped with most of 
 their command and control assests located on the ship sounded like a 
 spearhead battalion.
 The design was done with SSDS, with occasional FFS bits.

 Description
      The Leviathan Class Assualt Transports will be the biggest ship
in the Coalition Navy upon completion. The same team of Naval architects
that designed the rest of the Clippers designed the Leviathan. It shows 
this lineage, both in its appearence and its internal arrangements. 
The ship looks like a streamlined version of the Aurora and Maggart 
Clippers, with the addition of small stabelizing wings in common with
the Lancer and Fusillier classes. (For a picture of the Lancers/Fussillier
see their respective Battle Rider counters.)
      The inside of the ship also resembles the other Clippers.  This
has its good points and its bad.  The mechanical systems on each of the
clipper line tend to be versions of each other, and reduces the amount of
training maintence staffs need.  The staterooms are also identical
allowing transfered sailors to feel instantly at home.  Unfortunatly
some of the problems with the other clippers have not been fixed, every
stateroom still has the same badly designed fresher made by Novastar Inc. It
has a habit of backing up and "regurgitating" its contents back over the
floor of the fresher.  The Navy has tried to get Novastar to fix the design
but since Novastar's CEO August Delparo was just arrested for treason, 
the company is in a state of confusion and has been unable to come to any 
agreement over replacing the designs.  So when Delparo gets convicted, alot
of Coalition sailors will cheer his downfall.

Operations: 
    During a hostile landing, 400 marines will use the drop capsules to make
a meteoric descent. They will be accompianed by 100 MK II capsules in
various loadouts, depending on the mission and the commander's preferences.
(For details on drop capsules see RCEG.) At the same time the ship will
be firing planetary assualt missiles at enemy targets. As its laser turrets
are equiped with tunable lasers, they can also be turned on targets on the
ground, though they are intended at point defense weapons.  
    Once a beachhead has been achieved, the ship can launch its Fury
assualt landers, which carry a further 196 marines.  At the same time,
any carried grav vehicles can be launched. These can include Intrepid
grav tanks, Pyrrhus support sleds, and Ferret/Mongoose attack speeders.
    It is not expected that the Leviathan opperates alone. It does not
have the firepower to take out opposing starships.  It will probably
operate in concert with several clippers or destroyers.  After these
ships have cleared away enemy spacecraft they can be used as orbital
artillery. Fussiliers will not tend to be used in this role, as their
partical accelerators do not work as well in this role as the Lancer's 
meson gun.  Aurora, Maggart, and Belladonna Clippers can also carry
fighters which will provide air support to the troops.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 97 22:39:16 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #824

>In mail you write:
>
>>>>      I seem to remember that stars go in this sequence:
>>>>      O B A F G K M  (various mnemonics, mostly obscene)
>>>>
>>>
>>>Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me?  I suppose you *could* call that obscene. <g>
>>
>> Or my personal preferred mnomonic:
>>
>>   Oh Be A Fellow, Go Kill Mike (Right Now. Splat!)
>>
>> which not only covers the R, N and S oddball types, but is rather more
>> Travelleresque. :)
>
>The "standard" version of the other mnemonic covers those also.
>
>Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me Right Now Sweetie
>

Great.  Now the Cr64,000 question:  What do the designations R, N and S
cover?  What are the temperatures, spectra and other stats for them?

Jeff


- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\      "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________
        odysseus@novia.net
  http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 97 16:21:03 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #823

	
>> These are two designs for fast-attack vehicles that I feel are fairly
>> representative of the Vargr design philosophy.  They're mostly built to
go
>> "that way", really fast and really loudly. 
>
>I Love 'em!  Definitely going to find their way into the next session
>(which happens to be Vargrward).
>
>Kudos on the design philosophy and imagination.  Math I can check later.
>
>Pete 

Thanks... here's another design, based on one originally published in /101
Vehicles/ by DGP.

- ---------------------------------------------------------
TL 13 Vargr Oeghaeghz Rruerrgh Air Raft

Tech Level:  13
Price:  Cr198,000
Size:  35 kiloliters (2.5 dTons, Mc)
Mass:  3.835 tonnes empty, 6.728 tonnes loaded
Power:  0.45 MW Gas Turbine, with High Bypass Turbofan generating 3.0
tonnes thrust
     (0.0825 MW excess power)
Maint:  1
Controls:  Holo Linked, TL-10+ Flight Avionics, TL-13 Terrain Following
Avionics,
     1xTL-13 Flight Computer (no backup)
Commo:  300km Radio
Life Support:  Light, heat
Cargo:  5.332 kl
Crew:  1
Passengers:  5

Max Speed:  360kph
Cruising Speed:  270kph
NOE Speed:  170kph
Travel Move:  1080/1020
Combat Move:  50/24
Fuel Capacity:  1560 liters High Grade Hydrocarbon Distillates
Fuel Consumption:  390 liters/hour (4 hours duration)

     Combat Statistics
     Config:  Standard     HF:    2
     Susp:    Grav         HS:    1
                           HR:    1
     Deck:    1            Belly: 1
     
  The Oeghaeghz Rruergh (Luck's Paw) air raft is one of the more popular
vehicles found in and around the Vargr extents.  The seats are very roomy
and comfortable, and its convertible roof improves comfort during hot or
rainy weather.  Like most Vargr craft, the Luck's Paw comes in a variety of
body styles and colors, all of them gaudy.  Many non-Vargr consider the
term "Vargr aesthetics" to be a contradiction.


FF&S Design Sheet
Disp=2.5 (35kl)
MV=0.72 (1 cm), 0.025 (1 mm):  1 mm thick 
Material=Superdense, AV=1.4 (base)
Airframe=Simple
Armor Slope:
  Front  Moderate -3.5kl  AV 2
  Sides  None     -0      AV 1
  Rear   None     -0      AV 1

Volume: 3.572  Mass: 1.08  Price: 1008

Component:     Volume:   Mass:   Price:   Power:   Notes:
Hull            3.572     1.08     1008             Simple Airframe
HECG Susp.      0.75      0.5     75000    0.25    
Dynamic Link    0.035     0.0035   5000    0.0025
TL-10+ Avion.   0.001     0.001   25000    0.1
TL-13 TF Avi.   0.1       0.02    15000    0.02     NOE 170kph
TL-13 Flt Cmp   0.9       0.18     4000    0.045
300km Radio     0.0001    0.0002    500    0.01
W/S, Open       3.5       0.2      2000    
5 Pass. Seats  17.5       0.1       500
Gas Turb PP     0.75      0.75     7500   -0.45     FC: 0.090kl/hour HCD
HBT 3.0 Tt      1.0       1.0     62500   -0.06     FC: 0.300kl/hour HCD
Cargo           5.3319    1.3329
Fuel            1.56      1.56
               -------    ------  -----   --------
Totals:        35.0       6.7277 198008   -0.0825   FC: 0.390kl/hour HCD



- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\      "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________
        odysseus@novia.net
  http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 18:53:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Plasma" questions

Irradiating Cambridge Ma could only make it more normal, rather than paving,
perhaps MIT should move the Plasma Center to Harvard Square. Oh, and get rid
of the shielding, that'll speed things up.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 18:40:14 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: JTAS

On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Clint Fishback wrote:

> I liked the magazine but felt that it was kinda small for $5.

Possibly.  But, it could be looked at this way:  Issue 24 of JTAS cost 
$2.50 in 1985, and you got 48 digest-sized pages.  Issue 25 of JTAS cost 
$5.00 in 1996, and you get 48 full-sized pages.  Looked at this way, it's 
not a bad deal. :)


> Things I'd like ta see:
> Upcoming product guide
> Product reviews

I'd also like to see an editorial.


> I also thought the bit about Biotechnology was good.  Perphaps some 
> articles will emerge from this NG.  Like Ship construction times, 
> starbase construction.

Yup.  This is our chance.  Don't like the articles in JTAS?  Do better 
ones!  :)  JTAS #25 has submission guidelines.  Go to it! :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:37:22 -0500 (EST)
From: BrianMays@aol.com
Subject: JTAS

I'm sorry if this has already been answered (I've been unsubscribed for about
a month due to "issues" with AOL), but when did JTAS ship?  My credit card
was billed on 12/10, but I haven't seen squat.

Brian ("Inquiring Travellers Wanna Know!") Mays

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:44:13 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Cost of Aliens and CSC

Neil Taylor wrote:
> 
> Sorry to be late posting comments on these books and their prices -
> but they've only just arrived on the shelves in the UK. (Of the 2
> shops I patronise, one has one hasn't got them.)
> 
> They're 15 pounds here, which is $21 at $1.40 conversion rates. At #15
> each for 2 slim books I palled at the thought....

I paid $18.95 for Aliens. I was disappointed at the size of the typeface, and the art is a bit 
ugly (and that is not a newt, that is an Edeinos from TORG)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:59:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: JTAS

On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 BrianMays@aol.com wrote:

> I'm sorry if this has already been answered (I've been unsubscribed for about
> a month due to "issues" with AOL), but when did JTAS ship?  My credit card
> was billed on 12/10, but I haven't seen squat.

I receieved my subscription issue today.  I imagine you'll receive yours 
shortly as well...?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:38:18 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure storyline problem

Goran Sjoberg wrote:
> 
> A couple of adventures ago they got their filthy hands on a hitech trader
> from the lost civilisation of Arcane (TL:21) <snip>

How in the heck do they do maintenance on this thing? Some materials
and technological devices must be impossible to find even with the
few TL16 worlds in the Imperium. Even in the Vanguard Reaches/Beyond
sectors published by Paranoia Press, the highest TL was 17.

> <snip>  In this adventure they happen to
> slip into a plot to capture this ship by the military and because of that
> has an accident wich either:
> 
> 1. Damages the ship so bad they have to enter the cold berths just to stay
> alive while their robot (also got him from the lost civ)drives them out of
> harms way. It will take him 86 years approx. and by then the ship is ready
> for the scrapyards.
> 
> 2. Is attaced by the same military and because of the energy discharge
> produced by the shields they do a time/space jump when entering J-space
> leaving it 86 years later with so much dammage they have to enter cold
> berths to stay alive.

I'd go with number 2. It can be used to guarantee the military can't
track/follow them. "Sir, we've been able to discern their destination
from their jump field configuration but we've picked up some unusual
readings..."
 
> In the end they will be awakened by the RC wanting to know who they are and
> such. Their robot will be missing, carrying the ships specs of that TL, but
> only the players will know that.
> 
> The question:
> 
> How will the reaction be from the base, them knowing these players have
> knowledge of vast technology?
> How far will they go to get it?
> Will they be able to reproduce the technology to some degree?

Given the history of the RC's Smash & Grab tactics, I'd have to opt
for the RC grabbing the ship using any means short of outright murder.
Minor tech may be reproducable but, overall, it's main value would be
the furthering of research. Keep in mind that a number of tech
improvements are dependent on advances in material science, power
generation, and a host of other advances all being added together in
ways not previously known to achieve a synergistic effect.

As an example, consider the events and advances required for you to
be reading this post. The discovery of electricity, the development of
the particle accelerator in your monitor, and the manufacture and
manipulation of the materials used in your PC's motherboard aren't even
scratching the surface. How about the technologies and industries
required to simply exist before these advances can occur?

You're talking a jump from the RC's highest TL of 12 to a TL of 21?
Most of the trader would be magical. Heck, even black globes were
just starting to be really effective around TL18-19 and the 3rd
Imperium, at TL15/16, struggled with this technology and treated it
with the highest security possible.

Your players may be highly compensated by the RC but given its
current resources, they can't help but realize they've come out on
the short end.  Then again, they are alive...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:55:35 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Off-topic but germane

I was getting caught up on some mail today (real, paper stuff ;-) and came
across a quote in Information Week:

"Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes, and
weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 Vacuum tubes
and perhaps weigh 1 1/2 tons" Popular Mechanics, March 1949

This was less than 50 years ago.

Considering that I could be writing this reply (by hand, in cursive) on my
<500 gram Newton, and mailing it off, from virtually anywhere in the US,
without any wires, you really, REALLY have to wonder why we even THINK of
trying to design equipment for the year 4518, much less argue over the
finer points. Don't EVEN get started on the aesthetics of design that far
in the future...for all we know the starships of Imperial Year 0 may look
less like 'Traveller' than Picasso, much less Foss.

That said, has anyone come up with an grav (or other propulsion) APC like
the one in 'Aliens'? Anyone know where the 'real-world' (chortle) stats of
that vehicle are? Like rough displacement, size, carrying capacity, etc?

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:04:10 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss

Ken Whitman wrote:
> 
> Okay, I've sat back and listened to everyone bash Foss.  Whereas his art
> may not be Travelleresque, you have to remember that all of Foss' color
> plates are 10+ years or older.  This man has a portfolio of 300+ color
> paintings.  Courtney broght him in for two reasons:
> 
> 1) He has a lot of work we could purchase for second rights, and
> 2) His name is famous in Hollywood, which would help open doors for a
> Traveller movie.

What?!? You mean Sweetpea/IG are trying to be profitable by planning
for the future? Golly, imagine a business in America trying to do
that.

> Do I think Foss is a great artist? You bet your ass!

Hear, hear! Okay, so he hasn't built his life around Traveller.
It's not like any of us have spent alot of time...um...never mind.

> <snip>  Foss was directed to make "older-looking
> ships and equipment" .  I always knew that we would be modernizing the
> ships as the timeline progressed.  IT WAS ALL PART OF THE MASTER PLAN.
> 
> Now for those of you who think FOSS can't do Traveller-like pictures, boy
> are you in for a surprise when you see the cover for Pocket Empires!  An
> original Foss made for TRAVELLER.

Kewl!

> Overall, a great Traveller feel, and to all of you who don't like Fosses
> old stuff...
> nana nana boo boo, stick your head in poo poo.-)

Aw, come on, Ken. Don't be shy; just say what's on your mind. ;-)

Personally, I really like the black & whites in T4 (though I'd like
to know the race of the "seal"-faced alien). Although I also think
that while *some* of the plates aren't Travelleresque, so what? The
day I can do better, IG will be receiving my submissions in the
mail. (Don't hold your breath)  I use art I like from many different
sources. Besides, he *is* one fine artist.

BTW, would someone like to explain in objective detail what makes a
piece of art "Travelleresque"?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 23:24:12 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: Off-topic but germane

- ----------
From: 	Bruce Johnson[SMTP:johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU]
Sent: 	Friday, January 10, 1997 2:55 PM
To: 	Traveller Digest
Subject: 	Off-topic but germane

>That said, has anyone come up with an grav (or other propulsion) APC like
>the one in 'Aliens'? Anyone know where the 'real-world' (chortle) stats of
>that vehicle are? Like rough displacement, size, carrying capacity, etc?

There is an Aliens Tech book in print now.  I have seen it at the local Barnes &
Noble's store in town.  Don't know the publisher or author, but it does make 
for interesting reading, with plenty of pictures and line drawings.

Eric Freitas

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #827
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, January 11 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 828



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CT Items for Sale
Re: Off-topic but germane
FW: Software for First New Millennium Mission Closest Yet to \"HAL 9000\"
RE: 3G3 Hardback
RE: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)
Re: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)
Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss
(no subject)
Starships is broken, too!
RE: Starships is broken, too! 
Re: Imperial Navy reserves
Re: Vargr forces
Re: Corridor invasion details
Re: Starships is broken, too!
Vehicle Designs and Operational Duration

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:20:55 -0500 (EST)
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: CT Items for Sale

In a message dated 97-01-09 15:34:42 EST, you write:

> Best of the Journal
>    #1      $5
>    #2      $5
>    #3      $5
>    #4      $5
>  
>   Double Adventures
>    #1 Shadows/Annic Nova     $5
>    #3 Argon Gambit/Death Station     $5
>  
>   Adventures
>   
>   #13 Signal GK       $5
>  


Loren,

I would be interested in any of the above.  Please let me know if you still
have copies available.

Tim Peter

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:37:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Strnger357@aol.com
Subject: Re: Off-topic but germane

In a message dated 97-01-10 22:00:37 EST, you write:

<< 
 That said, has anyone come up with an grav (or other propulsion) APC like
 the one in 'Aliens'? Anyone know where the 'real-world' (chortle) stats of
 that vehicle are? Like rough displacement, size, carrying capacity, etc?
  >>
Funny you should mention this, I have been working on one, however more along
the lines of the APC from Space:AAB.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:26:42 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: FW: Software for First New Millennium Mission Closest Yet to \"HAL 9000\"

Thought this might be of interest to the ship design folks:

Begin------------------------------------------
Douglas Isbell
Headquarters, Washington, DC                     January 9,1997
(Phone: 202/358-1753)
Sender: owner-press-release
Precedence: bulk

John Bluck
Ames Research Center, Mountain View, CA
(Phone: 415/604-5026)


RELEASE: 97-7

SOFTWARE FOR FIRST NEW MILLENNIUM MISSION CLOSEST YET TO "HAL 9000"

    As the fictional birthdate for the HAL 9000 main computer 
from the landmark science fiction tale "2001: A Space Odyssey" 
approaches, NASA is preparing the most advanced spacecraft 
artificial intelligence software yet developed for launch 
aboard the New Millennium program's Deep Space One (DS1) spacecraft.

    According to the 1968 book by highly acclaimed author 
Arthur C. Clarke, Hal "became operational" on January 12, 1997, 
in Urbana, IL, home of the University of Illinois.  It then 
served as the "brain and nervous system" of the 400-foot-long 
spaceship Discovery that carried astronauts on a thought-
provoking voyage to the planet Saturn (changed to Jupiter in 
the movie version).

    The robotic DS1 spacecraft carries no crew and is much 
smaller than the spaceship of "2001," at a total mass of 945 
pounds, but its computer artificial intelligence program, known 
as the Remote Agent, shares the same basic goal of operating 
and controlling a spacecraft with minimal human assistance.

    "We don't want to give the impression that Remote Agent is 
an artificial lifeform," said Kanna Rajan, a DS1 computer 
scientist at NASA's Ames Research Center, Mountain View, CA.  
"However, the software will logically reason about the state of 
the spacecraft, and the Remote Agent will consider all of the 
consequences of its actions."

    Following its scheduled July 1998 launch, DS1 will fly by 
the asteroid McAuliffe in 1999, and the comet West-Kohoutek-
Ikemura and the planet Mars in 2000.  DS1 is thefirst scheduled 
mission in NASA's New Millennium program, which is designed to 
test and validate cutting edge technology for the systems and 
instruments on-board future NASA science spacecraft.  The 
Remote Agent is being developed in a collaborative effort 
between Ames and the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, CA.

    "The goals of the Remote Agent development are two-fold:  
to reduce the cost of exploration, and to extend exploration to 
realms of space where no ground-controlled craft could 
venture," said Dr. Bob Rasmussen, a computer autonomy expert at JPL.

    "Remote Agent should enable future spacecraft software to 
be more easily designed," said Dr. Barney Pell, another DS1 
computer scientist at Ames.  "The first version of Remote Agent 
will be the hardest to write. After that, we can copy it for 
the next mission and make improvements in it rather than 
developing the software from scratch."

    "This is made possible by model-driven software," Rasmussen 
explained.  "Models of the spacecraft's components and 
environment are given to the Remote Agent and it figures out 
the necessary detailed operating procedures on its own.  Only 
the models need to be updated for each new spacecraft."

    Given NASA's continuing efforts to develop many smaller, 
less expensive science spacecraft, "we also need to perform 
each mission with less than a dozen ground controllers instead 
of the hundreds of people now needed to run a major planetary 
science mission," said Dr. Brian C. Williams, DS1 team leader 
for the development of the Remote Agent fault protection 
software.  "The large distances inherent in planetary 
exploration result in communications that can be too slow 
during emergencies," Pell added, "and sometimes your 
communication pathway is blocked when a planet is between the 
spacecraft and Earth."

    Three parts of Remote Agent will work together to 
demonstrate that it can autonomously operate a spacecraft:  
High Level Planning and Scheduling, Model-based Fault 
Protection (also called Livingstone) and Smart Executive.  
"Some estimates show a 60 percent reduction in mission costs 
using Remote Agent.  The software would replace a large section 
of the human spacecraft control team back on Earth," said Dr. 
Nicola Muscettola, team leader for the planning software. 

    The High Level Planning and Scheduling part of Remote Agent 
will constantly look ahead to the schedule for several weeks of 
mission activities.  "Planner is mostly concerned about 
scheduling spacecraft activities and distributing resources 
such as electrical power," Muscettola said.  "The Planner 
allows a small spacecraft control team on Earth to command the 
spacecraft more effectively by sending goals instead of 
detailed instructions to DS1."

    "After DS1 we want to work on even more autonomous 
spacecraft that could reconfigure themselves.  If some part of 
such a spacecraft performed differently during the mission than 
expected, the craft would be able to detect this and change 
software models and algorithms to self-adapt," Muscettola added. 

    "Future systems also should be able to learn about their 
environment and act in partnership with scientists to find and 
analyze new discoveries," said Dr. Guy Man, the co-leader of the
New Millennium Autonomy Integrated Product Development Team at JPL.

    The fault protection portion of the Remote Agent, known as 
"Livingstone," functions as the mission's virtual chief 
engineer, according to Dr. P. Pandurang Nayak of Ames.  "If 
something should go wrong with the spacecraft, Livingstone 
would use the computer model of how the spacecraft should be 
behaving to diagnose failures and suggest recoveries," Nayak said.

    Livingstone was named for David Livingstone (1813-1873), 
the 19th century medical missionary and explorer.  "Like David 
Livingstone, the Livingstone computer program is concerned with 
exploration and the health of explorers," Nayak said.

    The third part of the Remote Agent software, Smart 
Executive, will act like an "executive officer" of the mission, 
issuing general commands to fly DS1.  "The Executive has to be 
able to execute the plans that are produced by the Planner and 
Livingstone," said Pell.  "If the Planner had to worry about 
every single detail, it would be hard pressed to produce a 
plan.  So, the Executive takes care of the details."

    The Executive also can receive a plan directly from ground 
controllers.  "However, if the ground's plan won't work, the 
Executive can say, 'Sorry, Ground, I can't do that,' " Pell 
said, comparing Remote Agent to Hal.  "This can actually be a 
big help to ground controllers who must currently spend 
enormous effort double-checking every command," said Rasmussen.

    "In the event that the Remote Agent won't cooperate under 
some unusual circumstance, we will be developing a surgery mode 
where ground control can really get into Remote Agent and do a 
lobotomy," Pell added.  "Remote Agent may someday lead to 
software that would be incorporated into a space robot that 
would be as intelligent as HAL 9000."

    The New Millennium program "has accelerated technology 
development in spacecraft automation by at least ten years," 
Man said.  "The Remote Agent will open up new exploration 
opportunities for us, allowing us to really begin the in-situ 
era of space science." 

    The ultimate goal of the New Millennium program, according 
to Wesley Huntress, Associate Administrator for Space Science 
at NASA Headquarters, is to generate and validate technology 
"to allow us to build a fleet of these smart spacecraft, called 
spacecraft constellations or armadas, and let them explore 
different places, share their findings, and even divide amongst 
themselves the work of achieving complex scientific goals. 
Systems like the Remote Agent will be crucial supporting 
components of this vision."  

    The New Millennium program is managed by JPL for NASA's 
Office of Space Science and Office of Mission to Planet Earth, 
Washington, DC.

                             -end-
end---------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 23:19:02 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: 3G3 Hardback

- ----------
From: 	Phillip McGregor[SMTP:aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au]
Sent: 	Saturday, January 04, 1997 5:43 AM
To: 	traveller digest; btrc@aol.com
Subject: 	3G3 Hardback

>Just received my copy of 3G3 Hardback yesterday (postmarked Boxing Day!)
>and am *really* impressed -- of course, since the previous copy I had was
>only the 2nd edition (3g2?) that probably wasn't hard!

Looks interesting!  How much?  Who's the Author? Who's the publisher?

Thanks.

	Eric Freitas

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 02:01:09 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)

- ----------
From: 	Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage@einstein.ssz.com]
Sent: 	Saturday, January 04, 1997 6:11 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	RE: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)


>Are you refering to TOKAMAK reactors? I am aware of the laser pulse reactors
>(MINERVA) and TOKAMAK style reactors being researched currently. As far as I

No, I was referring to PLASMAK or SPHEROMAK reactor vessels.  Both of these are
spherical in shape, and use magnetic fields for both plasma containment and heating.
I don't know much more about them however.  For the purposes of Traveller, I like 
a reactor designed by Farnsworth & Hirsch in the late sixties.  It is spherical, and 
uses electric fields to contain & heat the hydrogen plasma.  Test reactors were
built that unlike TOKAMAK, had a very stable plasma with a respectable nuetron
output.  The device was never scaled up, and further research was halted.

Two other reasons that the this reactor architecture was never used were the
death of P.T. Farnsworth (of ITT Farnsworth Research Corporation) and the 
appointment of Robert Hirsch to head the US Fusion program.  Once Hirsch
became head of the  fusion program, he directed the money into Tokamak reactor
systems.  He now regrets that decision, and has for the last few years been
trying to convince fusion researchers to look into other types of reactor to 
achieve a commercial system.  The reactor that he and Farnsworth were 
working on is his main aim (Inertial-Electrostatic Confinement).

The continuous stream of roadblocks to fusion power via Tokamak reactors
has apparently convinced him that other methods may provide an answer 
somewhat sooner than the decades or centuries required to design a viable 
commercial Tokamak reactor.  Laser fusion may be an answer, but I tend 
to think that it is nothing more than a way to fund big science.  I am a firm 
believer in the KISS method of engineering (Keep It Simple Stupid), and 
both laser and tokamak systems don't adhere to that rule.  The issue of 
complexity becomes even worse when you want to build and operate 
that (oh my god! Big and very Radioactive(!) What if it blows up like Chernobyl)
reactor in the regulatory environment of someplace like the U.S.A..  The 
overengineering and extra safety interlocks and 5000 workers to maintain it
will take a huge chunk out of any profit it might have made.  Fusion 
power won't be economical in the US unless it's small, easy to build and 
maintain, and cheap to operate.  Of course you could probably build it in
France and make a good profit, they understand the difference between
bombs and power plants there.

Well, the wife is yelling at me to get to bed (its 2am).

Eric Freitas

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 01:44:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)

Hi Eric,

> >Are you refering to TOKAMAK reactors? I am aware of the laser pulse reactors
> >(MINERVA) and TOKAMAK style reactors being researched currently. As far as I
> 
> No, I was referring to PLASMAK or SPHEROMAK reactor vessels.  Both of these are
> spherical in shape, and use magnetic fields for both plasma containment and heating.
> I don't know much more about them however.  For the purposes of Traveller, I like 
> a reactor designed by Farnsworth & Hirsch in the late sixties.  It is spherical, and 
> uses electric fields to contain & heat the hydrogen plasma.  Test reactors were
> built that unlike TOKAMAK, had a very stable plasma with a respectable nuetron
> output.  The device was never scaled up, and further research was halted.

Ah, I am familiar with them. The reason that they were dropped was because
they rely on magnetic bottle compression (basic PVT) to help heat and
stabalize the plasma. As you scale them up they leak like a sieve because of
the non-linear (don't remember the exact power relation) relations involved
(E=mv^2, F=ma, p=mv, loss::v^2, v::E,T,q,p).

I am curious about your statement regarding neutron output, for a given mass
of plasma under identical PVT conditions there should be a fixed amount of
neutron output irrespective of geometry (ie spherical v toroidal) because
the neutron output is related to the number of molecules (or particles)
involved in the reaction. Also the effect on the container should be
identical for a given time period. In both cases the neutrons are going to
pass through the magnetic bottle (being neutral charge) and since in both
cases the plasma is fully surrounded all neutron output should be absorbed
in the liner. A torus has less surface area than a sphere for a given radius
[1]. Which means the plasma should absorb more neutrons per unit surface
area. While this means that the liner wears out quicker in a torus it also
costs less to replace as well as costing less to contain the plasma.

Consider [1],

                             Torus                 Sphere

             Radius          830m (major)          895m
                              65m (minor)

             Surface Area    2.1E6 m^2             10.1E6 m^2

             Volume          6.9E7 m^3             300E7 m^3


  [1]  Space Settlements: A Design Study
       NASA SP-413
       pp. 44


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:41:47 +0000
From: dreamer@brokersys.com
Subject: Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss

> BTW, would someone like to explain in objective detail what makes a
> piece of art "Travelleresque"?

I'll take a stab at that.  

If I had to describe Travelleresque art in one descriptive sentence, 
I would say that:

 Travelleresque art depicts believable images of what we expect the 
item (vehicle, space ship, piece of equipment, etc) to really look 
like in the future.

For instance, look at page 79 of the CSC.  I can buy that the grav 
fighter would look like that, and I can even see the grav bike, 
although I'm not fond of the design, looking like that in the 57th 
century.

But, under no circumstances can I see a civilian ATV looking like it 
does on the page.  This thing looks like those cartoony stickers I 
used to get on baseball type cards, with a stick of rock hard gum, 
back when I was in grade school.  

I could easily see flames coming out of the side pipes in the 
drawing, but I can't imagine a vehicle really looking like that.

So, bottom line, in general, for me, is does it look real--or does it 
look like it could be real given the circumstances in Traveller.

Kenneth.  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 02:14:20 -0600
From: WED@www.prodigy.net
Subject: (no subject)

unsubscribe traveller@MPGN.COM: Bill Dittrich

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 20:18:31 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Starships is broken, too!

I've just been going through the Starships design rules and *trying* to get
them to design a selection of the ships mentioned in them and *THEY JUST
DON'T WORK*.

What do I mean, well, the *physical* aspects (Hull, Power Plant etc.) come
close enough -- given that we have no idea from the pitifully inadequate
game stats as to *exactly* what goes in them. What doesn't even come
*close* is the prices.

For example, the Type S Scout/Courier comes in at around 66 MCr (without
discount) assuming that they don't have Exploration quality sensors, or 108
MCr if they do. The 200 ton Free Trader comes in at around 53 MCr. The
Broadsword Class 800 ton Mercenary Cruiser comes in at around 700 MCr.

What's wrong with these figures -- nothing, in and of themselves, *EXCEPT*
for the fact that the figures given in T4 are 21.75 MCr, 30.75 MCr and
285.352 MCr, respectively.

Ergo, either there's something badly wrong with my maths (and I'm pretty
certain that there isn't) *or* the system provided in Starships is
*STUFFED* ... its out by a factor of 50% on average.

Look, is it too much to expect this *allegedly* "super wonderful" FF&S
by-blow to give the figures that the Game Book suggests we should get? *I*
certainly don't think it is ... and every time I look at T4 I am getting
more and more frustrated with the complete botch up that has been made of
some vital areas -- such as this.

If only people hadn't become so enamoured of this pursuit of chimerical
"realism" and mistaking *complexity* (*needless* complexity) for it. For
ghu's sake, this is *science fiction*, and for things such as this all we
need is something that seems reasonable -- and has the courtesy to work.
Either that or rework the starships presented so that the costs are in line
with what the **** system you've provided us with!

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 04:37:59 -0500 (EST)
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Subject: RE: Starships is broken, too! 

In Reply to Your Message of Sat, 11 Jan 1997 20: 18:31 +1100
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 04:37:59 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@strauss2.udel.edu>

: If only people hadn't become so enamoured of this pursuit of chimerical
: "realism" and mistaking *complexity* (*needless* complexity) for it. For
: ghu's sake, this is *science fiction*, and for things such as this all we
: need is something that seems reasonable -- and has the courtesy to work.
: Either that or rework the starships presented so that the costs are in line
: with what the **** system you've provided us with!

Somehow I don't think that FF&S, nor it's proponents are to blame.  If
the system is internally consistent, then it must work.  If the printed
values are off, then I would guess it's time for some more errata.  The
examples that you use are rather poor in my opinion.  The scout and
mercenary cruiser weren't designed by any of us.  My guess is that with
those, Perrin pulled the various figures out of his ass (you can tell by
looking at other ships that he didn't use the system).  For that, you
can blame the author.

As for the Free Trader, the listed price is the same as the one in T4.
Unfortunately, all ships in T4 were created with QSDS, and thus offer a
*substantial* discount since they are *stock* ships.

Actually, there's probably a good chance that all of those ships were
designed with QSDS.  Kind of funny that IG would publish ships created
with one system and then publish another system ALL IN THE SAME BOOK.

The system works.  Unfortunately, the rest of the Starships books points
out just how badly IG screwed up!!!  8(

       --Jerry

ps-Before we begin pointing fingers, let me remind everyone that the
   wonderful MT design sequence was tabularized just like this one, and
   that was all kinds of funky (until you replaced the missing tables,
   etc...).

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:27:41 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

Tommy Grav writes:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
>[Lots on navy reserves deleted]
>Although there is a large reserve fleet (in this I take it you mean ships, 
>not crew since these has to be reactivated) after the Imperial fleet is 
>pulled out, where does the worlds get crews for these ships? I would think 
>that training sufficent crews for 48 million tons of ships so that they are 
>battle-capable would take some time.

A good question, and one you might ask the authors of _Trillion Credit
Squadron_. According to _TCS_ it takes roughly 8-10 weeks to reactivate a 
ship that has been laid up in ordinary. Once that is done it is completely
battleworthy. There is no mention of any reduced efficiency until the
ship crew has shaken down or anything like that. Logically there would be
such a reduced efficiency for some time, but apparently it is not severe
enough to be simulated with the _High Guard_ combat system. That could be
for several reasons. Two that I proposed yesterday was that perhaps space-
ships are much easier to operate than medium-tech surface ships or that
the 1% maintenance fee (1/10th of what it costs to keep a ship active, but
10 times the cost of an annual overhaul) includes the training of reserve 
crew (say, for one month per year). Also remember that the crew could at 
get 6-8 weeks of training while the ship is being reactivated. Apparently
that is enough.

Btw. here's my suggestion for several other way to keep navy reserves. Note
that these are house rules, not an interpretation of official rules:

Mothballed:  The ship has been completely shut down, pumped full of inert
	     gas, bagged, and stuck inside a convenient asteroid.
In ordinary: Ship is powered down with a small caretaker crew. It recieves
	     a perfunctory annual overhaul. (This is what I think the level 
             in the _TCS_ rules is).
On standby:  Ship is manned for 72 days per year and maintains a skeleton
	     crew for the rest of the year. Effectively the ship is
	     available for duty (at its base only) 2 months per year. When
	     a lot of ships are maintained in this way they are usually
             active in six staggered lots.
 

		Maintenance	Activation

Mothballed:	      0%	    25% (ie. a major overhaul)
In ordinary:	      1%	    10%
On standby:	      4%	     1% (and min one week)
Active:		     10%	     0%


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:56:26 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Vargr forces

Chris Cox writes:
>Hans Rancke wrote:
>>Yeesss... The problem here is that the charisma won't go to the Vargr 
>>government leaders, it will go to the fleet commanders. It's the classic
>>problem of the old Roman emperors with the added twist that it must be
>>a lot worse for Vargr and that the Vargr leaders can't go themselves,
>>the way some Roman emperors did, because that makes the other part of
>>the charsima equation -- distance -- kick in.
> 
>On the other hand not leading fleets or supporting them from home could
>result in Vargr leaders ending up being ex-Vargr leaders. I imagine that the
>idea of invading the Corridor would have been fairly popular for the
>following reasons: The recent Oekhsos' triads had whipped up a fair amount of
>anti-Imperium feeling which not only resulting in many Vargr who wanted to go
>and show the Impys a thing or two, but also helped unify Vargr in general; 
>From a Vargr point of view plundering was not only an accepted way to make
>money but being a corsair was a desirable and romantic profession;  Suddenly
>Corridor was left "undefended" and many Vargr would feel that this would be
>the opportunity of a lifetime.  Of course Corridor wasn't really undefended,
>but with the withdrawal of most of the Imperium's fleet and reports of
>successful corsair raids in Corridor the perception that Corridor couldn't
>properly defend itself would have been there.  Under these circumstances
>Vargr leaders who opposed invading Corridor could have found themselves being
>replaced by those who advocated invading Corridor.  

You miss the point. I'm not saying that most Vargr emperors wouldn't feel
tempted and/or forced to send some of his fleets off to invade Corridor. 
What I'm saying is that if he has two brain cells to rub together he won't
send off more ships than he retains at home. Given that a successful Vargr
admiral would have both increased charisma and a battle-seasoned fleet 
when he came home, any emperor would be wise to retain quite a lot more 
than half his fleet at home. As it is he is propably waving goodby to any
fleet he sends off. That being so his best bet is to send off only a token 
force to keep his subjects happy. That's bad news for the medium population 
worlds in Corridor, but the high-population worlds would still be very
tough nuts to crack.
 
However, I've decided to back down a bit on my position wrt. Corridor (but
not wrt. the Domain). See my reply to Steve Bonneville elsewhere.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:37:31 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Corridor invasion details

Steven Bonneville writes:
>As for your other points, they're certainly good questions.  It would be
>nice if we knew more about Provence sector, and could make some more
>rational judgements.  Here's a question.  Based on what we know about
>Vargr space, what would Provence have to look like for you to consider
>the Vargr to manage what the "history" is showing?

Essentially it would have to be more un-Vargrlike. The picture I have of
Vargr society is that it is so disorganized that the concept of umpteen
billion Vargr paying full taxes to any one government, and of 500 TCr
Squadrons cooperation effectively for long enough to overwhelm the
defensive forces of a high-population world just isn't plausible.

However, I've decided to back down a bit on my original claim. Essentially
I felt that the Vargr invasion of the Domain of Deneb and the conquest of
Corridor involved an unbelievably long string of low-propability events
and circumstances and that even without taking the Domain into account,
the Corridor conquest alone was unbelievable.

Now, after it has been pointed out to me that Kukhish didn't fall at all, 
that Plunge didn't really fall as much as sell out, that another planet
fell by treachery, that the Vilani Empire did take over several subsectors,
and that similar circumstances propably apply to other high-population
worlds, I have changed my mind to a degree. I will agree that the conquest
of Corridor only involves a not-quite-unbelievably not-quite-so-long string
of low-propability events and circumstances. Hence I have to admit that it
could have happened. And since it could have happened, and since GDW says
it happened, well, it happened. I still think that in time the Vargr would
have found occasion to change Corridor's name from the "Devoured Sector" to
the "Undigestable Sector", but since the Virus made that point moot I won't
go further into that.

What I still think is unbelievable is that the Assemblage of 1116 and the
other governmental and quasi-governmental groups of Gvurrdon and Tuglikki
could muster the strength to invade the Domain of Deneb, let alone capture
anything. I can't see Norris strip his Vargr border completely (and, in fact, 
even the official history tells us of Domain fleets fighting the Vargr). The 
military reserves of the Domain are formidable, no matter what assumptions 
are made about the state of its reserve fleets (btw. 'reserve' is sometimes 
used synonymously with 'subsector' and 'colonial' forces; I use it only to 
mean ships laid up in ordinary). The colonial forces alone should be able to 
turn back the Vargr even if all the regular fleets have been moved to the 
Zhodani border and it just dosen't make sense for Norris to keep on beefing 
up his defenses against the masterfully inactive Zhodani at the expense of 
several subsectors where there IS enemy activity. And even without 
withdrawing any of the forces sent to the Zhodani border in the first weeks 
of mobilization, reserve and replacements ships alone would provide several 
full fleets in the first year alone. And the first load of NEW construction 
will be ready in less than two years. That's the end of 1118. So what are 
Vargr forces and Aslan _ihatei_ doing inside Domain borders in 1120?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 06:37:47 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Starships is broken, too!

On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Phillip McGregor wrote:

> I've just been going through the Starships design rules and *trying* to get
> them to design a selection of the ships mentioned in them and *THEY JUST
> DON'T WORK*.

I don't know about all of the designs in _Starships_, but mine were 
designed with QSDS 1.0, then re-designed with 1.1,then re-redesigned with 
1.2.  Then it was time to turn them in.  In that time, SSDS hadn't been 
completed (it was completed a week later or something like that, IIRC).  
QSDS was the only choice, if I wanted to respond to Don Perrin's call 
for ship designs by the deadline given.

This was all back before T4 was even released.  June or July of 96.

So naturally the designs will vary to whatever degree QSDS 1.2 differs 
from 1.4, and from SSDS.

I imagine the other folks who designed ships for _Starships_ were in the 
same boat.  We did our best, given the constraints placed upon us.

If the book had been released on time, it would have been understandable 
that the designs aren't up to spec for SSDS.  Unfortunately, for whatever 
reason, Don Perrin didn't design and/or re-design the ships in the book 
in the extra time he had, once SSDS was available.  Nor did he seek 
revisions from contributors.

So, as has already been established previously, the Starships book is 
pretty useless to those interested in accuracy of design, except for 
SSDS.

After Allen gives his SSDS seminar on IRC, perhaps I'll re-design my 
contributions to _Starships_.  If I do, I'll post them here and send them 
to IG.  Perhaps they'll use them in the next printing of the book.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 00:26:26 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Vehicle Designs and Operational Duration

Some more thoughts on vehicle designs. Looking through the ones in the CDC
and doing a mental reality check on some of them (having been prompted by
looking at 101 Vehicle and the ludicrous design/durations there), I noted
the following --

TL12 Grav Tank - 250 hours duration (0.75 tons), but no extended life
support.
TL12 Grav Truck - 2000 hours duration (0.12 tons)
TL12 Rolen Politesse - 400 hours duration (0.15 tons)
TL5 Heavy Tank - 20 hours duration (4 tons)

I suppose the Grav Tank, Truck and Car are arguable as for duration -- but
for all of them there seems no operational need for such long periods to be
catered for between fuellings, and the cost in possible cargo (or
munitions) space is not inconsiderable.

However, the TL5 Heavy Tank is inexcusably overfuelled -- 4 *tons* of fuel
(4000 liters, more or less) in a TL5 (thats about WW2 Terran equivalent!)
tank?! You *have* to be joking, even modern tanks would be hard pressed to
carry more than 10 hours worth of fuel!

It weighs in at around 51 tons --equivalent to a Centurion (late WW2 tank)
and is armed similiarly as well. Both use a petrol rather than diesel
engine. The Centurion has a roadspeed of 34.6 km/h, close enough to the 45
km/h of the CDC design. The Centurion carres 1037 liters (say a ton) of
fuel and has an operational radius of 190 km (say 6 hours). What does it do
with the rest? Carries heavier armour, I would suspect. At this TL, we are
*not* going to see Tanks with the sort of 20 hour duration suggested here.
Why? Because they'll be blown away by the tanks with teh 5 hour duration
and the bigger gun/heavier armour. There is really no need for the amount
of fuel carried either, as, as any Tanker (or wargamer, or military
historian) will tell you, tanks rarely operate for 5 hours *continuously*
at a time even in battle -- and if they're cut off from logistics and
resupply, it won't matter if they've got a 200 hour duration.

I guess this goes back to the ludicrous operational durations of the
Megatraveller era. It makes some sense for vehicles that a Fusion or
Fusion+ powered as the fuel volume may be quite small (or may not be, as
noted above), but for vehicles that operate in a well serviced civilised
area, there is no reason to carry more than 5-10 hours at most at a time.

Think about it -- how much petrol does your car have in its petrol tank? 25
liters in mine (more or less). That does me for a whole week of driving,
more or less, and that's around 200 km or so, on average (actually, its
probably closer to half a tank for a week). So, obviously, most of us don't
drive for 200 km nonstop most of the time -- we commute to work, to the
shops, to pick up the kids, to go to dinner or whatever. If I was on the
highway I'd probably have around 5 hours duration nonstop at around 100 kmh
- -- but most people don't drive that way. And the designers would tell you
that the space allocated to the extra fuel would be better spent on more
interior room for passengers and/or luggage.

Military designers have different aims, but they basically don't want fuel
in there that doesn't need to be any more than a civilian designer.

The only exception that I can see to this would be exploration vehicles --
and they probably should be carrying external tanks or fuel as cargo
anyway.

So, just a suggestion, lets not have too many pre-Grav vehicle 200 hour
duration City Cars! Doesn't make sense. Just a thought.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #828
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, January 11 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 829



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)
Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss
Re: Ship AccomodationsCTD
Madaline
Re: Madaline
Re: Corridor invasion details
RE: 3G3 Hardback
Re: Starships is broken, too!
Re: Off-topic but germane
2300AD, anyone?
Aliens APC (Was: Off-topic but germane)
Imperium Games Web Newsletter
I'm back
Re: CSC errata
Starship Armour
Re: Off-topic but germane
Re: Starship Armour
Re: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)
Re: Off-topic but germane
Re: Corridor invasion details
Re: Starship Armour
Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss
Calling Out the Ten

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 07:59:02 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)

Eric Freitas wrote:
> <snip>
> No, I was referring to PLASMAK or SPHEROMAK reactor vessels.  Both of these are
> spherical in shape, and use magnetic fields for both plasma containment and heating.
> I don't know much more about them however.  For the purposes of Traveller, I like
> a reactor designed by Farnsworth & Hirsch in the late sixties.  It is spherical, and
> uses electric fields to contain & heat the hydrogen plasma.  Test reactors were
> built that unlike TOKAMAK, had a very stable plasma with a respectable nuetron
> output.  The device was never scaled up, and further research was halted.

Is there a web site where can we find info on this? Or any published
papers/books?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 08:23:30 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss

dreamer@brokersys.com wrote:
> 
> > BTW, would someone like to explain in objective detail what makes a
> > piece of art "Travelleresque"?
> 
> I'll take a stab at that.
> 
> If I had to describe Travelleresque art in one descriptive sentence,
> I would say that:
> 
>  Travelleresque art depicts believable images of what we expect the
> item (vehicle, space ship, piece of equipment, etc) to really look
> like in the future.
> 
> For instance, look at page 79 of the CSC.  I can buy that the grav
> fighter would look like that, and I can even see the grav bike,
> although I'm not fond of the design, looking like that in the 57th
> century.
> 
> But, under no circumstances can I see a civilian ATV looking like it
> does on the page.  This thing looks like those cartoony stickers I
> used to get on baseball type cards, with a stick of rock hard gum,
> back when I was in grade school.
> 
> I could easily see flames coming out of the side pipes in the
> drawing, but I can't imagine a vehicle really looking like that.
> 
> So, bottom line, in general, for me, is does it look real--or does it
> look like it could be real given the circumstances in Traveller.
> 
> Kenneth.

What I seem to be reading is that Travelleresque art is supposed to
take into account the laws of physics as we know them and as they are
postulated by Traveller design sequences. It is also supposed to be
true to the design parameters provided by these same sequences (such
as volume, mass, material strength, etc.).

So we're talking about art which agrees with the engineering adage of
"form follows function"?  A great idea but a little tough for
commercial artists who have never played Traveller, let alone walked
through the design sequences which, we all pretty much agree, are
broken. And this is assuming someone tells them which one is
"official" (T4, QSDS, SSDS, FF&S, High Guard, CT).

Sounds like we want a commercially successful artist with a deep
understanding of engineering concepts and with experience
generating Traveller designs.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:59:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ship AccomodationsCTD

I cannot take credit for the entire post, mine is only the last bit about the
air vent. You could indeed sleep against the wall, but you miss the drama of
throwing youself on the bed after a long day.
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:59:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Madaline

...So cowboy, What's your name....


Its twoo! its Twooo!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:34:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Madaline

In a message dated 97-01-11 10:02:46 EST, you write:

>...So cowboy, What's your name....
>
>
>Its twoo! its Twooo!
>
>

This is one of those times when you realize that you shouldn't use the
"reply" button, and should type in the address. BION-this is germane to
Traveller, but you REALLY  don't want to know why. Trust me.
Many apologies to all and sundry.

p.s. Happy birthday HAL!
p.p.s. Pete-Whats the AR of a TL15 diaper, Laverne wants to know...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:36:58 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Corridor invasion details

I took the time to work out the GNP (according to old Striker) of Khukish and every world 
within Jump 3 (the limit of my players' ship) and at 0.5% GNP defence spending, Khukish 
has approximately 4000 times the defence spendng of all those worlds combined

Yeah, like they would ever fall!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 07:52:44 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: 3G3 Hardback

At 11:19 PM 1/10/97 -0500, you wrote:

>From: 	Phillip McGregor[SMTP:aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au]

>>Just received my copy of 3G3 Hardback yesterday (postmarked Boxing Day!)
>>and am *really* impressed -- of course, since the previous copy I had was
>>only the 2nd edition (3g2?) that probably wasn't hard!
>
>Looks interesting!  How much?  Who's the Author? Who's the publisher?

the authoris Greg Porter, the same man who did such a good job on the
Central Supply Catalog.  The publisher is BTRC.

One warning:  make sure you own a good scientific calculator before
starting; this book is tech-geek heaven.


+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 08:06:58 -0800
From: David Bullock <dbullock@cris.com>
Subject: Re: Starships is broken, too!

In going over the plans for the website - IG is planning on releasing
_comprehensive_ errata to fix Starships, online.

Not much of an answer - but I just wanted to let you guys know that IG is
very aware of the problems with starships and will correct the issue.

We should be seeing a steady increase in quality in all products after
Starships.

Dave

At 08:18 PM 1/11/97 +1100, you wrote:
>I've just been going through the Starships design rules and *trying* to get
>them to design a selection of the ships mentioned in them and *THEY JUST
>DON'T WORK*.
>
>What do I mean, well, the *physical* aspects (Hull, Power Plant etc.) come
>close enough -- given that we have no idea from the pitifully inadequate
>game stats as to *exactly* what goes in them. What doesn't even come
>*close* is the prices.
>
>For example, the Type S Scout/Courier comes in at around 66 MCr (without
>discount) assuming that they don't have Exploration quality sensors, or 108
>MCr if they do. The 200 ton Free Trader comes in at around 53 MCr. The
>Broadsword Class 800 ton Mercenary Cruiser comes in at around 700 MCr.
>
>What's wrong with these figures -- nothing, in and of themselves, *EXCEPT*
>for the fact that the figures given in T4 are 21.75 MCr, 30.75 MCr and
>285.352 MCr, respectively.
>
>Ergo, either there's something badly wrong with my maths (and I'm pretty
>certain that there isn't) *or* the system provided in Starships is
>*STUFFED* ... its out by a factor of 50% on average.
>
>Look, is it too much to expect this *allegedly* "super wonderful" FF&S
>by-blow to give the figures that the Game Book suggests we should get? *I*
>certainly don't think it is ... and every time I look at T4 I am getting
>more and more frustrated with the complete botch up that has been made of
>some vital areas -- such as this.
>
>If only people hadn't become so enamoured of this pursuit of chimerical
>"realism" and mistaking *complexity* (*needless* complexity) for it. For
>ghu's sake, this is *science fiction*, and for things such as this all we
>need is something that seems reasonable -- and has the courtesy to work.
>Either that or rework the starships presented so that the costs are in line
>with what the **** system you've provided us with!
>
>Phil
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
>Have Game Designer, Will Travel
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
>Have Game Designer, Will Travel
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 08:05:43 -0800
From: The Orcslayer <rguy@cdsnet.net>
Subject: Re: Off-topic but germane

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> That said, has anyone come up with an grav (or other propulsion) APC like
> the one in 'Aliens'? Anyone know where the 'real-world' (chortle) stats of
> that vehicle are? Like rough displacement, size, carrying capacity, etc?
> 

I don't know about stats but Revel I think it was put out a model kit for 
it a few years back, it probably had stats.
********************************************************
		       "RUNAWAY!"
********************************************************
Joe Hamrick                              rguy@cdsnet.net
Homepage       http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/8701

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:57:30 -0000
From: Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk>
Subject: 2300AD, anyone?

Hi all, sorry that this ain't strictly traveller,

Does anyone know if there is a 2300AD mailing list around or know of any
2300AD websites.  If anyone has any info can they contact me at 
obiwan@thenet.co.uk, and *not this list*.

thanks,

Ch*kaar Kavaluchk,

Jason
- --
"Remember, the Amiga will be with you...always"

                           Obi-wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:36:58 +0000
From: "Stuart C. Squibb" <scs@vectis.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Aliens APC (Was: Off-topic but germane)

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
> Subject: Off-topic but germane
>
> That said, has anyone come up with an grav (or other propulsion) APC like
> the one in 'Aliens'? Anyone know where the 'real-world' (chortle) stats of
> that vehicle are? Like rough displacement, size, carrying capacity, etc?
> 

Bruce,

This is taken from the 'Aliens Colonial Marines Technical Manual', 
published in the UK by Boxtree Ltd. ISBN 0-7522-0844-6:

(the data below is formatted for a fixed width font, such as courier)

M557 APC SPECIFICATIONS

Crew:			2 plus 12
Engines:		Arco Continental R-370 Gas Turbine with
			an output of 286 Kw

Dimensions:		Height (turret stowed)	2.17 m
			Height (turret raised)	2.81 m
			Length (turret stowed)	9.22 m
			Length (turret raised)	8.58 m
			Width				3.38 m
			Wheel diameter	     158.75 cm
			Clearance (at rest)	      21.59 cm

Armor:			2mm Alloy outer skin; 4mm Boron Carbide 
			plates coated with 2mm ablative resin; 
			plates backed by a 3mm woven Venlar liner.
			Foam packed floor cavity for protection 
			against forged fragment mines.

Combat Weight:	14,500 kg
Road Speed:		150 km/h	
Acceleration:		42 km/h in 6 s
Vertical Obstacle:	0.5 m
Gradient:		60%

There's lots more stuff like this in the book. Anyone interested in 
putting together an equivalent document for the Imperial Marines?

Hope this helps.

Stuart.
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Stuart C. Squibb	| Home: scs@vectis.demon.co.uk
Isle of Wight, England  | Work: stuart@iwha.swest.nhs.uk
- ------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:05:31 -0800
From: David Bullock <dbullock@cris.com>
Subject: Imperium Games Web Newsletter

1.	I'ld like to thank everyone who signed up for the web site 
	newsletter, we have 20 members so far.  The email addresses
	used to subscribe to the list are confidential and will not
	be released to anyone.

2.	TRAVELLER COMIC BOOK
	Additional information to be announced end of January.

3.	FIRST CONTEST
	IMPERIUM GAMES is announcing their first contest.  IG is putting
	together a new product which will be a supplement consisting of
	eight mini-adventures.  IG is looking for submissions on the
	internet to put together the product.

	The prize for the authors of the selected adventures will be one
	year of ___free__ IG products as they are released.  All
	submissions should follow the format as per the JTAS SUBMISSIONS
	link on the homepage.  Incidentally the direct link is
	(http://www.imperiumgames.com/jtas_submissions.html).

	- Dave Bullock
	webmaster@imperiumgames.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 17:28:39 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: I'm back

I have been away from this list more than a year. I thought it was
time to get online after T4 was released.=20

Since last time I have changed e-mail address and Homepage address.
=46or those of you who got links or bookmarks to HIWG homepage should
update them now to http://home.sn.no/~starwolf/HIWG/


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:48:12 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Re: CSC errata

At 08:43 am 01/10/97 -0600, sam thomas said:
>Is there anyone compiling errata for the Central Supply Catalog?
>
>Well here is one:
>
>page 65, paragraph heading Contragrav and Thruster
>Plates:........High-efficiency contragrav becomes all but unless (1% output)
>within 1 diameter of a world, ....... 
>
>I thought that contragrav(antigrav) were useful out to 100 diameters.

	IIRC correctly from writing SSDS, it was supposed to be _10_ (ten)
diameters, to match up with MT.
- -- Dave Golden                         PGP Public Key available --
   goldendj@usa.net   http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:03:24 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <diemos@ican.net>
Subject: Starship Armour

What is the accepted conversion method for SSDS armour factors?

Some people on the list have mentioned multiplying the armour
muliplier by ten, and then using the USP table.  I have suggested
multiplying the multiplier by the ship's volume in displacement
tons instead.  Is there an official answer?

I'm hard at work on my submission for the MIL-TD/41 exploration
and recontact starship.  It's a 5000 ton cruiser, gunned to the
hilt.  With the loot that I can bring back from this, it'll
operate at a net profit for the IISS.  I'll get the contract
for sure <grin>.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 20:02:02 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Off-topic but germane

At 04:05 PM 1/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>> 
>> That said, has anyone come up with an grav (or other propulsion) APC like
>> the one in 'Aliens'? Anyone know where the 'real-world' (chortle) stats of
>> that vehicle are? Like rough displacement, size, carrying capacity, etc?
>> 
>
>I don't know about stats but Revel I think it was put out a model kit for 
>it a few years back, it probably had stats.
>Joe Hamrick                              rguy@cdsnet.net
>Homepage       http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/8701
>

A couple of months ago I saw a book on the technology of the Aliens movies,
but I can't recall the title. The Colonial Marine APC was in there, along
with some stats. Budgetary constraints precluded the purchase of the book at
the time; but it as at a Barnes & Noble bookstore.

May still be in print. Oversized; like the Star Wars technical books. 

Garry

 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:11:29 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Armour

At 02:03 pm 01/11/97 -0500, Doug Sinclair said:
>What is the accepted conversion method for SSDS armour factors?
>
>Some people on the list have mentioned multiplying the armour
>muliplier by ten, and then using the USP table.  I have suggested
>multiplying the multiplier by the ship's volume in displacement
>tons instead.  Is there an official answer?

	Neither. The official answer is convert the FF&S value using the USP
table, and then multiply by 10.

- -- Dave Golden                         PGP Public Key available --
   goldendj@usa.net   http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 20:15:53 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)

At 03:59 PM 1/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Eric Freitas wrote:
>> <snip>
>> No, I was referring to PLASMAK or SPHEROMAK reactor vessels.  Both of
these are
>> spherical in shape, and use magnetic fields for both plasma containment
and heating.
>> <snip>
>
>Is there a web site where can we find info on this? Or any published
>papers/books?
>

This is what I like most about Traveller; and what makes Traveller the most
unique of SF RPG games. The ease with which we can merge from our fictional
universe into the real one.  Out of the original group of gamers I lead thru
CT, one was in jr high, doing moderately well in school, but not focused on
a career orientation, till he got hooked on the concept of ship and
equipment designs. Last I heard of him some years back he was on the way to
a career in aeronautical engineering. Let's see if TSR or Games Workshop can
claim that kind of motivational effect for their games. 

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:31:44 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Off-topic but germane

Garry Ward said:
> A couple of months ago I saw a book on the technology of the Aliens movies,
> but I can't recall the title. The Colonial Marine APC was in there, along
> with some stats. Budgetary constraints precluded the purchase of the book at
> the time; but it as at a Barnes & Noble bookstore.

:)

Funny, I bought that book. 

pg 74 - M577 Specifications:

Crew:       2 plus 12
Engines:    Arco Continental R-370 Gas Turbine with an output of
            286 kw
Dimensions: Height (turret stowed)  2.17m
            Height (turret raised)  2.81m
            Length (turret stowed)  9.22m
            Length (turret raised)  8.58m
            Width                   3.38m
            Wheel Diameter          158.75cm
            Clearance (at rest)     21.59cm
Armor:      2mm alloy outer skin; 4mm Boron Carbide plates coated
            with 2mm ablative resin; plates backed by a 3mm woven
            Venlar liner. Foam packed floor cavity for protection
            against forged fragment mines.

Combat Weight:     14,500kg
Road Speed:        150 km/h
Acceleration:      42 km/h in six seconds
Vertical Obstacle: 0.5m
Gradient:          60%

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 20:45:27 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Corridor invasion details

At 10:36 AM 1/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>I took the time to work out the GNP (according to old Striker) of Khukish
and every world 
>within Jump 3 (the limit of my players' ship) and at 0.5% GNP defence
spending, Khukish 
>has approximately 4000 times the defence spendng of all those worlds combined
>
>Yeah, like they would ever fall!
>

Most of these discussions seem to have focused on the military side of the
Vargr incursion and the surprising success thereof. What about the political
side of the question? Did Corridor fall because it's military failed to
protect it or did Corridor fall because the politicians failed to let the
military perform their function? Political expediency has cost more people
their freedom than military failure has. 

With the psychological effect of the Imperial fleets being withdrawn, did
government officials in Corridor make bargains with the proverbial devil
rather than take a chance on a real fight? 

Garry




 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:49:00 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <diemos@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Armour

David J. Golden wrote:
>         Neither. The official answer is convert the FF&S value using the USP
> table, and then multiply by 10.

Ah, okay.  I don't have FF&S, but I'm assuming the SSDS armour value
is equal to that.  For example, in order to get an armour value of 10,
I need to multiply the basic armour volume by 20.

While I'm on the subject, how do CSC vehicle armours compare to FF&S?
I was trying to mesh CSC with the Striker II combat system, and some
of the armour values in Striker II seem far too high to have been
created
with the third power law in CSC.  The Trepida would require many meters
of superdense to get its >300 frontal armour value.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:11:38 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss

>
> Sounds like we want a commercially successful artist with a deep
> understanding of engineering concepts and with experience
> generating Traveller designs.

I think that you are taking it a little too literally here--which is 
what I was afraid of.  This is why I kept stressing "general" 
statement.

No, I don't think that we are requiring a Traveller artist to be that 
familiar with generating Traveller designs--although it helps.

Look at the cover to CSC, for an example.  I think that this is very 
Traveller, and this was something Foss did a long time ago.

And it passes my test--the ship, the explosion, the equipment, the 
man in the suit look believable.  It is Travelleresque--and Foss was 
not familiar to generating Traveller designs when he created the 
piece.

So, let me make my basic criteria for Traveller art a little more 
simple.

<in Clint Eastwood's voice>

"You've got to ask yourself one question...does it look believeable?"

"Well, does it, punk?"

For me, there are very few pictures in the CSC that do not pass this 
test.  I wasn't expecting to accept many of them much less like a 
few.

Here's the ones, IMO, that do not pass the test (and this doesn't 
mean that I prefer all of the other ones--just that they pass my 
believeability test and I can buy that they could exist).

Don't Pass			Pass				Like
								Cover
								All pics pg. 9
				pg.17 Filter Suit		All pics pg. 17 except Filter Suit
				All pics pg. 27
				Pg. 31 Laser Cutter	Pg. 31 med scanner
				pg. 31 micrpscan		pg. 31 NAS, Translator
								All pics pg. 45
				pg. 49 Companion Bot	All pics pg. 49 except companion bot
pg. 79 Civ ATV						All other pics pg. 79
				pg. 83 Heavy Tank	all other pics pg. 83
pg. 85 Hover Tank
pg. 85 personal ATV	pg. 85 Rolen Politesse
pg. 90 Cargo Manip					All other pics pg. 90
pg. 91 Type I Bot					pg. 91 type II bot
				pg. 92 LAV 870		pg. 92 Ship's Boat
								pg. 93 Space Drone
				Back Cover

How's that for examples.

Kenneth.

	 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:11:38 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Calling Out the Ten

It is human nature to dwell on things that are bad.  This is one 
reason for the evening news, gossip,  and rubbernecking.

I remember a class I had in consumer behavior when I was in school.  
One of the points the prof made was that the old adage that you have 
to make ten customers very happy before you can make up for the 
damage that one dissatisfied one will do is true.

What do these thoughts have to do with Traveller?  Well, I just 
bought the CSC, Aliens, and JTAS today, and I'm calling in the 10 to 
stand up.

Most of us dogged Starships pretty well, and rightly so.  But, I've 
gotta say that I'm not seeing that kind of uproar, either way, for 
any of these three new products.  I believe that IG deserved the 
pounding they got for that crap of a book, Starships, but I also 
believe that when they do something right, then we should shout with 
the same fiercness that we do when they screw up.

C'mon everyone!  These three products are LIGHT YEARS ahead of 
Starships in terms of quality and worth.

Yeah, there are still a few problems, and I have not read any of 
these three yet, but I can tell just by flipping through them that 
they are going to be good supplements for me.

I want to start a different kind of uproar.  I WANT TO LET IG KNOW 
THAT THEY HAVE TAKEN A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION!  

I like CSC, ALIENS, and JTAS, and I want to let them know that this 
is the type of stuff I want to see.  This is one small step for 
IG--one giant leap in makeing Traveller what we all want it to be.

Let's take a look.  Here's my rundown:

The CSC.

Aesthetics:  One of the things that I always like about Traveller was 
that it's supplements were more adult oriented.  I liked that.  I'm a 
fan of the little black books.  This was much better than the cruddy 
drawings that graced the cover of the D&D stuff at that time.   

MT came along with inconsistent art.  Some was great, like the cover 
to the Rebellion Sourcebook--and other items were not so great.  

TNE?  Well, let's not go into that.  I think whoever was in charge of 
the art for that game should be shot.

And, that brings us to T4.  I've got to admit, I like the black motif 
with the red border. I don't know if they're planning this, but a 
good idea (and they may have already thought of this) is to have the 
different melieu distinguished in different trim color.  In M0, we 
can see that it is red.  Maybe M200 will be blue.  I like the tie-in 
with the old, little books in this manner.

 Another thing I've got to admit, I like the 
Foss cover pic.  It was one of the few that I liked in Starships.  It 
looks like an exciting Traveller campaign--a ship blowing up, the 
character shielding himself with a piece of the hull.  This guy's in 
a world of hurt, and it looks like this is one of my campaigns.

Surprisingly, I don't mind many of Foss' equipment illos either.  I 
still think that they could be done better

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #829
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, January 11 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 830



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starship Armour
Re: Calling Out the Ten
Traveller Art and San Antonio Traveller
Re: CSC errata
"I'm Back" quoth the ravyn and nothing more.
Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss
Re:(David Smart)Adventure storyline problem
Re: Starship Armour
Re: Starships is broken, too!
Re: Vehicle Designs and Operational Duration
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #824

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:21:35 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Armour

At 03:49 pm 01/11/97 -0500, Doug Sinclair said:
>David J. Golden wrote:
>>         Neither. The official answer is convert the FF&S value using the
USP
>> table, and then multiply by 10.
>
>Ah, okay.  I don't have FF&S, but I'm assuming the SSDS armour value
>is equal to that.  For example, in order to get an armour value of 10,
>I need to multiply the basic armour volume by 20.

	If I'm following you right, that's correct. Maybe another example, just to
make sure. 

	The armor value used when designing the hull is the FF&S armor value. This
represents the equivalent thickness of hard steel needed to provide the
same protection. So armor factor of 200 represents the protection which
would be provided by 200cm of hard steel. Multiply this armor value by the
volume factor to get the volume occupied by the armor.

	At the end, when you're calculating the ship's armor rating for the USP,
you use the USP conversion table and then multiply by 10. So FF&S armor
value of 200 becomes 6, then multiplied by 10, for a final Basic Combat
System rating of 60.
	
>
>While I'm on the subject, how do CSC vehicle armours compare to FF&S?

	Not at all. Greg used a different armor system and completely different
base factors.

>I was trying to mesh CSC with the Striker II combat system, and some
>of the armour values in Striker II seem far too high to have been
>created
>with the third power law in CSC.  


	They weren't. The Striker II combat system uses the same armor system as
TNE and FF&S. There is no easy way to convert from that back to the system
Greg used. What you have to do is determine what the armor material in
Striker II was, divide the armor factor given in Striker II by the material
toughness from FF&S to get the thickness of that armor, raise that
thickness to the 0.33 power, and then multiply by Greg's (completely
different) material toughness value.
>
>
- -- Dave Golden                         PGP Public Key available --
   goldendj@usa.net   http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:46:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Calling Out the Ten

On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> It is human nature to dwell on things that are bad.  This is one 
> reason for the evening news, gossip,  and rubbernecking.

Yup.  And by extension, that last is why I'm late to work when it snows - 
I leave early enough to compensate for driving slower, but not to 
compensate for 2 hours spent crawling along as every danged driver has to 
stare at a fender bender [grrr].  But that's another story (and it 
really did happen just last week)...


> I remember a class I had in consumer behavior when I was in school.  
> One of the points the prof made was that the old adage that you have 
> to make ten customers very happy before you can make up for the 
> damage that one dissatisfied one will do is true.

I was told the same thing - and the converse; for every customer you know 
you've lost (ie, they tell you so), you've undoubtedly lost at least 10 
more.  

Why? Lots of people don't say anything, they just stop coming back.  Or 
they tell friends, and those friends never buy from you (or stop buying 
from you if they had been).  

The upshot is: Pay attention to what your customers tell you.  Sometimes 
the customer is just a hothead or is just unreasonable, so you placate 
them as best you can.  But most of the time your customers are doing a good 
service for you - they're telling you how to succeed.  Listen to them, 
and you'll do well.

And I think IG's done a pretty darned good job of that.  Since the reorg, 
things have gotten better (and we have to remember that Starships was 
completed, except for being printed, before the reorg).  There was that 
problem with the JTAS shipping charges, but that was quickly corrected 
(if you subtract the time IG's offices were closed for the holidays, we 
got a response one day after they received our complaints).  

The last three products have been very good.  And IG's doing more - the 
new web site design (with a customer feedback area and complete errata, 
including major new material to replace the problematic stuff in 
Starships) is a good example.


> What do these thoughts have to do with Traveller?  Well, I just 
> bought the CSC, Aliens, and JTAS today, and I'm calling in the 10 to 
> stand up.

Well, you know where I stand by now.  My reviews of Aliens and CSC were 
pretty forthright in my apprecation of those products. :)  I gave 
_Starships_ a 50% rating; Aliens and CSC are solid A's (95% and 92%, 
respectively, IIRC).


> Most of us dogged Starships pretty well, and rightly so.  But, I've 
> gotta say that I'm not seeing that kind of uproar, either way, for 
> any of these three new products.  I believe that IG deserved the 
> pounding they got for that crap of a book, Starships, but I also 
> believe that when they do something right, then we should shout with 
> the same fiercness that we do when they screw up.

Absolutely.  If no one lets them know when they've done something right, 
how will they know what we like? :)  It'd be great if folks who like CSC 
and Aliens would write to IG and tell hem so - and ask 'em to give Greg 
and Tim more work! :)


> C'mon everyone!  These three products are LIGHT YEARS ahead of 
> Starships in terms of quality and worth.

Yup.  CSC is one of the most useful supplements I've ever seen for 
Traveller.  And I'm not even very interested in the vehicle design 
system!  The rest of the book is so chock-full of good stuff that I it 
brings to mind the best work of DGP.  I love it.

Aliens has some wonderful aliens in it.  Humanoid aliens, and 
completely inhuman aliens.  Each entry has plenty of information.  
Despite the large font, Aliens is densely packed with information, rather 
than art.  And that's one of the things *I* like most in a Traveller 
product.


> Yeah, there are still a few problems, and I have not read any of 
> these three yet, but I can tell just by flipping through them that 
> they are going to be good supplements for me.

Yup.  There were a few weights/costs left out of CSC (see IG's web site 
for those), and Aliens could have used a smaller font, allowing one or 
two more aliens to be detailed therein. But these are quibbles, in my 
book.  IG's taken care of the CSC problems by issuing errata 
immediately.  And as I said, Aliens has so much good information in it, I 
can't really complain about the font size.


> I want to start a different kind of uproar.  I WANT TO LET IG KNOW 
> THAT THEY HAVE TAKEN A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION!  

Cool.  Let's show 'em we really do know what we like. :)  Let's show 
them that we're people who love Traveller and want T4 to succeed.  
We let 'em know our thoughts on their _Starships_ product.  Now e-mail IG 
your praise today! :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 17:54:36 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Traveller Art and San Antonio Traveller

Hello TML beings.  My name is Tom Lane. 

First item--ANY Traveller groups or players in San Antonio?  Email me at

 <trlane@texas.net>

I need players willing to die in the Rebellion immediatley!


I'm a bit new to the TML, but have enjoyed the days of lurking I've been
doing.  Interesting discussion about artwork, as it happened to match my
feelings.  I've been playing/running Traveller for about 15 years, and
was never content with the quality of artwork produced, particularly for
TNE. Being visually oriented, I've come up with something better for my
campaigns.

My only question is this-why does the 20 year learning curve on starship
design, deckplan layout and art in general steer such a wobbly course? 
When one source produces an excellent design, such as the plans in
Arrival Vengeance, why do the follow on developers not mandate that
quality be continued?  What good are deckplans and art that are nearly
useless in describing the feel of the universe?

IMHO, the game begins with players and roleplaying.  Everything else is
a tool to provide the setting for the mind's eye.  Admittedly, I've
mostly designed lately, but only for lack of finding a group in the
wonderful locations I've been assigned to.

As for artwork, I can do and have done better.  Maybe you'll see it
soon.  And I like Chris Foss-except for starships with big clawy pincer
thingies and long, flexible snouts.  And US Navy destroyer bridges...

Long live Strephon, and long Live the THIRD Imperium!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 17:03:30 -0600
From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: CSC errata

At 10:48 AM 1/11/97 -0700, goldendj@mail.usa.net wrote:
>At 08:43 am 01/10/97 -0600, sam thomas said:
>>Is there anyone compiling errata for the Central Supply Catalog?
>>
>>Well here is one:
>>
>>page 65, paragraph heading Contragrav and Thruster
>>Plates:........High-efficiency contragrav becomes all but unless (1% output)
>>within 1 diameter of a world, ....... 
>>
>>I thought that contragrav(antigrav) were useful out to 100 diameters.
>
>	IIRC correctly from writing SSDS, it was supposed to be _10_ (ten)
>diameters, to match up with MT.

Dave, 

From what was discussed on the Beta list it was established that contragrav
limits out at 100 diameters and that thruster plates have a limit of 1000
diameter. If it was to match up with MT it will be the first thing that does. 

I have sent a copy of this message to Greg Porter for the "Official" word on
this, I don't thing he paid much attention to the QSDS/SSDS/NAH
rules/discussions and rulings. Nowhere in the "three" can you design a
piloted craft capable of greater than 6g's for sustained periods.

By the way are you interested in some 36g missiles that were designed with
CSC/VDS garranteed to restart the killer missile debate.

Bu the way does anyone have data on kinetic weapon damages? Wildstar?

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:07:48 -0800
From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Subject: "I'm Back" quoth the ravyn and nothing more.

Hello everyone. 

I've been rather quiet of late.  Settling in at a new job with odd hours 
destroyed any habits I had of checking e-mail.  I had a few quick 
comments and questions.

A) I know I've heard about a FF&S mailing List.  I believe its called   
   the Beta List but I can't seem to figure out how to log on to it.  If 
   anyone knows I'd appreciate it.

B) About the Foss artwork.  Well, I agree the weapon artwork suffered 
   greatly in the origional rulebook.  I do like the Foss Artwork but to 
   tell the truth I'd rather payless or readmore than have tons of 
   artwork. I mean artwork often enhances the writing but if the two 
   aren't related!?!

C) I wish to applaud Imperium Games.  Especially Ken Whitman and Marc 
   Miller.  I realize we all complain or make lots of 'suggestions' 
   about the new Traveller but all things considered I really think that 
   things have gone smashingly.  The T4 that is out now is really good 
   and I like the look of its future.  So here you go a round of 
   applause.

	Applause  
      / 	\
Applause	Applause
      \		/
	Applause	:)

D)  I've thought alot about the lack of melee weapons.  Anyone have 
ideas about rules for creating them.  In the last adventure I played I 
ended up using my Foil more than my Laser.  In fact I only 
took 3 shots the who adventure.  (Considered at least 10+ encounters 
with 6+ villians each this is pretty good.)  
	
I mean by TL15 I thought maybe something more advanced than just cold 
steel would appear.  My thoughts lie along the line of vibro or shock 
weapons.  For example Using FFS what if we added a small fuel cell and a 
homopolar generator plus XX volume of miscallaeneous gear and fit it in 
a sword handle.  This could amount to some sort of vibro sword.  
Thoughts or comments?

Thanks,

Brad Urwiller
ravyn@ptw.com 

"Quoth the ravyn and nothing more"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 17:17:57 -0600
From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss

At 12:03 PM 1/10/97 -0500, whitman@pensys.com (Ken Whitman) wrote:
>Okay, I've sat back and listened to everyone bash Foss.  Whereas his art
>may not be Travelleresque, you have to remember that all of Foss' color
>plates are 10+ years or older.  This man has a portfolio of 300+ color
>paintings.  Courtney broght him in for two reasons:
>
>1) He has a lot of work we could purchase for second rights, and
>2) His name is famous in Hollywood, which would help open doors for a
>Traveller movie.
>
>We (Courtney and I) went through and picked out color plates.  I being a
>fan of Traveller picked only the plates that I felt you could say "Yah,
>that feels like Traveller."  Courtney picked the plates that he felt he
>could sale to a movie company.
>
>Do I like all of the plates Corney picked? Hell No! But he was financing
>the project and I did not feel like telling him what will sell to the big
>movie companies.
>
>Do I think Foss is a great artist? You bet your ass!
>
>
>*******
>But what about his original stuff?
>
>We brought Foss over from England for 3 months.  During that time he
>created two color paintings and 225 black and white drawings (WOW, you
>figure how fast he was working).  Foss was directed to make "older-looking
>ships and equipment" .  I always knew that we would be modernizing the
>ships as the timeline progressed.  IT WAS ALL PART OF THE MASTER PLAN.
>
>Now for those of you who think FOSS can't do Traveller-like pictures, boy
>are you in for a surprise when you see the cover for Pocket Empires!  An
>original Foss made for TRAVELLER.
>
>Now Foss has asked me to sell the original artwork.  The asking price is
>$3,500.  If anyone is interested, I would be willing to e-mail a j-peg to
>them.  ONLY people interested in PURCHASING this piece should e-mail me at
>Whitman@pensys.com.  For the rest of you who are just curious, you will
>have to wait.  I am sure it will be on the new website in the matter of a
>few weeks.
>
Ken,

This sounds neat but it sounds like that is the reason for the INFLATED
prices on CSC and AA. Other small game companies have better value for your
money. Example BTRC smaller than SP/FFE/IG, new issue of 3G, more pages per
buck. If the artwork is causing the price to go up, ditch the artwork. Also
about this movie feldercarb, not even gaming giant TSR has pulled off a
movie deal. It does not matter how pretty we wrap garbage in deluxe gift
wrapping paper, it is still garbage just in pretty package. Most gamers want
value for their money, yes a pretty package will attract our eyes, but
content versus value will be the deciding factors.

If it had not been for VDS in CSC I would not have bought it, and I still
feel that I was gouged on the price. As for AA I will wait for my FLGS
quarterly "shelf queen" sale to maybe pick it up.

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 00:29:01 +0100
From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se>
Subject: Re:(David Smart)Adventure storyline problem

At 20:38 1997-01-10 -0800, you wrote:
>--------------------------------------------------------------------> 
>How in the heck do they do maintenance on this thing? Some materials
>and technological devices must be impossible to find even with the
>few TL16 worlds in the Imperium. Even in the Vanguard Reaches/Beyond
>sectors published by Paranoia Press, the highest TL was 17.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------> 

Well.. They haven't. They just fly it as long as it works while the ships
tech is having a hellova time just trying to analyze it. The only reason
they even got the ship working was because of the robot steward whose name
is... Steward.  :)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:53:15 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <diemos@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Armour

David J. Golden wrote:
>         If I'm following you right, that's correct. Maybe another example, just to
> make sure.
> 
>         The armor value used when designing the hull is the FF&S armor value. This
> represents the equivalent thickness of hard steel needed to provide the
> same protection. So armor factor of 200 represents the protection which
> would be provided by 200cm of hard steel. Multiply this armor value by the
> volume factor to get the volume occupied by the armor.
> 
>         At the end, when you're calculating the ship's armor rating for the USP,
> you use the USP conversion table and then multiply by 10. So FF&S armor
> value of 200 becomes 6, then multiplied by 10, for a final Basic Combat
> System rating of 60.

Okay, that makes sense.  At this point I'm not going to ask how small
craft like fighters end up with armour values of 8.  It's probably tied
to their fuel rating somehow <grin>.

I'm not quite sure why armour values are independant of ship size,
while structure is not.  However, if we limit ourselves to 5000 ton
ships the difference is probably not too bad.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:15:50 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Re: Starships is broken, too!

> From: David Bullock <dbullock@cris.com>
> To: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
> Cc: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Starships is broken, too!
> Date: Sunday, January 12, 1997 3:06 AM
> 
> In going over the plans for the website - IG is planning on releasing
> _comprehensive_ errata to fix Starships, online.
> 
> Not much of an answer - but I just wanted to let you guys know that IG is
> very aware of the problems with starships and will correct the issue.
> 
> We should be seeing a steady increase in quality in all products after
> Starships.

Yep, so what? I didn't buy MegaTraveler 2nd edition, either, I was so ****
annoyed with the ludicrously poor proofreading throughout, but especially
in the alleged Vehicle Design system. Didn't buy 2300 AD to replace
Traveller 2300 which was unusable because characters started off with
either 1 Hit Point or Dead, 50:50 chance.

I can't think of one other major game company who has *consistently*
mistreated its customers so over so long a period and, to be quite frank,
I'm at the point where I'm seriously considering *not* buying any more T4
products that have anything even remotely to do with *game system* ...
unless they're by Greg Porter.

Lets see the record so far --

T4 Rulebook - riddled with errors, some major, many minor.Hardcover version
so-called "binding" a joke that will last no longer than the softcover
("perfect bound" -- what I call "self destruct") binding will ... if every
other piddling little game company can do a decently bound hardcover, why
not Imperium Games?

Starships - completely unusable, with ship designs that bear no relation to
the "reality" (as defined by the rules) at all. Incredibly poorly laid out
... for ghu's sake, why did they have to put all those pages of
*irrelevant* colour art in one lump *in the middle of the b****y design
system. Couldn't they have at least had the common sense to spread them out
through the book?

CSC - Good product, even though the VDS is *badly* broken, entirely because
of the ridiculous constraints that Greg had to operate under.

Alien Archive - an insult to the intelligence. Useless artwork. Mega-sized
print like you'd get in a kiddies story book -- padding out the page count,
and, of course, the price.

Journal - Haven't seen it yet, but the comments on the TML seem to be
pretty negative.

This is a worse strike rate than even the late and unlamented MegaTraveller
managed to rack up. Why would anyone buy *anything* from IG? Like I said,
as far as I can see I won't be buying *anything* from IG in future *unless*
it meets certain criteria --

1) No game system material (*unless* its by Greg Porter)

2) Has normal sized print

3) Has no masses of irrelevant and antique Foss *colour* Art (OK, I can -
*barely* - tolerate the B/W stuff, even tho *its* mostly irrelevant, too).

4) Covers background stuff I don't have, is "historical" (more or less
"canon") -- but, then, DGP did most of that, didn't they?

5) Has been done by someone who has some inkling of using a DTP/Layout
program (for ghu's sake, *I* can do better with MS Publisher than IG has!)

I am getting increasingly angry at the slapdash efforts and cavalier
treatment that IG has *demonstrably* shown to all the "faithfu;" customers
out there -- and I wonder how many *new* customers will be so disillusioned
with useless efforts like "Starships" that they'll turn to something more
professional than Traveller -- even *Star Wars* is better!

I am *not* impressed.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 11:06:26 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Re: Vehicle Designs and Operational Duration

> From: Robert Piper <drakes7@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: Vehicle Designs and Operational Duration
> Date: Saturday, January 11, 1997 10:42 PM
> 
> At 12:26 AM 1/12/97 +1100, you wrote:
> >Some more thoughts on vehicle designs. Looking through the ones in the
CDC
> >and doing a mental reality check on some of them (having been prompted
by
> >looking at 101 Vehicle and the ludicrous design/durations there), I
noted
> >the following --
> >
> >TL12 Grav Tank - 250 hours duration (0.75 tons), but no extended life
> [ ... SNIP ... ]
> >
> >However, the TL5 Heavy Tank is inexcusably overfuelled -- 4 *tons* of
fuel
> >(4000 liters, more or less) in a TL5 (thats about WW2 Terran
equivalent!)
> >tank?! You *have* to be joking, even modern tanks would be hard pressed
to
> >carry more than 10 hours worth of fuel!
>  OK, some real world figures-
>    Russian KV-1:  9.57 Hour duration
>    Russian T-60:  10.227 Hour Duration
>    Russian Su-85: 8.5

KV-1

Road Speed = 34 km/h
Range (On Road) = 225 km
Duration = 6 hours onroad

SU-100
(Developed from SU-85 -- many U-85's converted to this standard by adding
100mm gun), for which I cannot find figures)

Road Speed = 55 km/h
Fuel = 614 liters (inc. 4 *external* fuel tanks)
Range = 300 km
Duration = 5.45 hours

T-34/85

Road Speed = 55 km/h
Range = 300 km
Duration = 5.45 hours

JS-3

Road Speed = 37 km/h
Range = 150 km
Duration = 4.05 hours

BA-64 Armoured Car

Road Speed = 80 km/h
Range = 600 km
Duration = 7.5 hours

M-24 Chaffee

Road Speed = 55 km/h
Range = 281 km
Duration = 5.1 hours

M3/M5 Light Tank

Road Speed = 56-58 km/h
Range = 145 - 160 km
Duration = 2.58 - 2.75 hours

M-8 Greyhound Armoured Car (figures for M-20 substantially the same)

Road Speed = 90 km/h
Range = 560 km
Duration = 6.22 hours

M-3 Halftrack

Road Speed = 73 km/h
Range = 321 km
Duration = 4.4 hours

M-7 Priest SP Gun

Road Speed = 40 km/h
Range = 210 km
Duration = 5.25 hours

M10 Tank Destroyer

Road Speed = 48 km/h
Range = 320 (M10), 260 (M10A1)
Duration = 6.67 (M-10), 5.4 (M10A1)

M-36 Tank Destroyer

Road Speed = 42 km/h
Range = 180 km
Duration = 4.28 hours

Comet (late 1945)

Road Speed = 52 km/h
Range = 400 km
Duration = 7.7 hours

>  These are estimates based on max-speed and range of the real world
tanks.
>  The Russians tended to give a lot of their earlier tanks large ranges
>  becuase they didnt have much oppurtunity to refuel.  The KV-1 is
probably
>  the closest example given to the mentioned tank, being a Russian heavy.

All above are based on "Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the World" and
various "Janes". Only a handful come even close. And they are exceptions
(the Comet was a "Cruiser" Tank -- light armour and high speed/long range)

>  Maybe.  Maybe they'll just drive around for 10 hours and wait for the 
>  other tanks to run out of fuel.  Obviously, using this logic the 
>  Russians would never have built the T-28 or the KV-2, the Americans
>  would never have built the M-3, M-5, M4A series of tanks.  Hell, the
>  Americans should have just surrended since /none/ of their tanks could
>  stand up to their german counterparts.

Sorry, the figures you gave are, as far as Janes etc. are concerned, wrong.
The T-60 (and the T-28) were cavalry tanks, light armour and a peashooter
gun (and I suspect that, based on the figures above, wherever you got your
figures is wrong and it means that their actual duration was on the order
of 1/2 to 2/3 of what you say it is). Neither would have stood up to a
Sherman - or even been able to do much (if any) damage to one.

As I said, none of the TL5 (and later TL) tanks have much more than 5-6
hours duration -- and all the above figures are based on optimum road
speeds and road ranges. Cross country would be worse. And, of course, the
Allies didn't have to worry about where *their* next load of fuel was
coming from, the Germans did.

> >and the bigger gun/heavier armour. There is really no need for the
amount
> >of fuel carried either, as, as any Tanker (or wargamer, or military
> >historian) will tell you, tanks rarely operate for 5 hours
*continuously*
> >at a time even in battle -- and if they're cut off from logistics and
> >resupply, it won't matter if they've got a 200 hour duration.
>  Tanks rarely operate in /battle/ for more than 5 hours.  But if that
>  tank cant reach the battle it isnt going to matter much.  
> 
>  The reason I put up the Russian examples is because they where often 
>  designed with their operating environment in mind.  The Russian army
>  didnt have a great logisitics train at the time these tanks were built,
>  and many of them had to drive from the factory to the front line.

So? The lack of logistics would logically mean that they couldn't supply
them with fuel *if* it was the case. The Russians didn't normally have this
problem until the end of a multi-day offensive, when they'd outrun their
supply lines ... al of them not just fuel. And, in any case, your figures
are wrong, so it seems.

>  While I'm sure the tank design isnt optimal, it certainly may be
practical
>  for a number of environments.  If its a design of a real world tank,
>  the range is most likely the result of finding something to do with the
>  left over space you always seem to have.
>  (I havent yet had a chance to look at the design, I picked up a copy of
the
>   book only over Christmas, and was very busy from then to now)

No, like I said, in any normal TL5 military environment it makes little or
no sense. For a light *scout* tank, 10 hours would be Ok, but even that is
stretching it in a major way. No, armour and ammo (or speed) are more
important than an extended duration. Always have been.

>  I've also seen numerous designs that would have been thrown out (and
>  a couple that were, then put back in) by any good design board that
>  ended up being used to great success when used correctly.  The 
>  Brewster Buffalo is the classic example of something so wrong actually
>  being used with great success.

Aircraft. And, in any case, the Buffalo's main problem was that *western*
aero-tech was advancing so quick when it was designed that *all* its
contemporary designs were outdated when they actually went into service. It
wasn't a bad plane *as such*, just compared to its competition.

>  If your strive is for "realism", then shouldnt your world include 
>  vehicles that are mistakes, just plain wierd, or have non-obvious
>  reasons for their existence?

Yes, and there was (for example) one design in 101 Vehicles that
*explained* why a Low tech vehicle had such a huge duration and a one man
crew -- not convincingly, in military terms, mind you, but there was an
*attempt* to explain.

Maybe an explanation would have made the above designs more palatable, but
I doubt it.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 97 00:33:17 GMT
From: Shane Thomas <s.n.thomas@aelfgyva.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #824

Jeff Kazmierski wrote:

>Great.  Now the Cr64,000 question:  What do the designations R, N and S
>cover?  What are the temperatures, spectra and other stats for them?

The quick answer is that R,N and S spectral types are cool stars that would
be normally be designated K or M if it wasn't for additional strong
absorption lines in their spectra that are not seen in most other stars of
the same colour and mass.

I'll see if I can dig out some more specific info over the next day or so.

Shane Thomas, Oxford, UK

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #830
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 12 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 831



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CSC errata
RE: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)
Re: Starship Armour
Re: "I'm Back" quoth the ravyn and nothing more.
Re: Ship AccomodationsCTD
Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss
Re: Calling Out the Ten
Re: What is 'Travelleresque'?
Re: Calling Out the Ten
T4 Lasers
FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:12:18 -0600
From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: CSC errata

By the way check out page 8 the PAWS-10 personal all weather sight, but page
9 shows the PAW as some sort of a vehicle.

Also has anyone been able to figure out what is meant by the following
paragraph on page 69.....

Doubling the volume of the 300,000km small vehicle sensor would upgrade it
to "improved" level, and quadrupling volume and multiplying power
requirements by eight would be roughly the same as a "small military" class
starships sensor array.

"Improved" level as in resolution or range or both? What would the small
starship class sensor array stats be in VDS terms ie range and resolution?

Later then...
Sinbad Sam
AI(Anally Inverted) Virus Programmer and Retailer (One my largest Clients is
Imperium Games second only to the US Government) and you thought that it was
the people that were causing the problems.  <G> ;-P

Sinbad@dfw.net
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:36:46 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC0007.8DB742E0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'm not really sure what point you were trying to make, but
I agree that the spheromak and plasmak reactors are difficult
to build and operate.  The Inertial Electrostatic reactor designed
by Farnsworth and Hirsch however used static electric fields
to contain and heat the plasma.  The plasma was stable from 
dc to 44GHz.  If you're interested in the research paper, 
complete with drawings and schematics of the vessel it can
be found in: Journal of Applied Physics, Vol 38, Number 11,
October 1967, pages 4522 - 4534.

Below is a graphic of the nested spheres construction of the
reaction vessel, showing the charges present on the two
electrodes.  

 
The inner cathode is a 90% perforated sphere, allowing the 
positively charged ions and  to pass through and be reflected
into the plasma again.  

The paper says that the device was operated over the 
pressure range from 10^-2 Torr to 10^-5 Torr of deuterium.
It also states that they were limited by the existing pump
capabilities.

At any rate the paper extrapolates that a fusion reactor 
based off this design, with a 1m radius vessel, would reach
the self-sustaining point (I think this is called either ignition or
breakeven) at 100MW of power input.

Well, gotta go now, think my wife is going to have the baby now :)

Eric Freitas




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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC0007.8DB742E0--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:44:31 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Armour

Doug Sinclair wrote:
> with the third power law in CSC.  The Trepida would require many meters
> of superdense to get its >300 frontal armour value.

Actually it would be a radically sloped (x2), bonded superdense (x14) for 10.7 cm
(oops, is that 300 in the new system? I am still in the New Era)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:52:37 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: "I'm Back" quoth the ravyn and nothing more.

Brad Urwiller wrote:
> I mean by TL15 I thought maybe something more advanced than just cold
> steel would appear.  My thoughts lie along the line of vibro or shock
> weapons.  For example Using FFS what if we added a small fuel cell and a
> homopolar generator plus XX volume of miscellaneous gear and fit it in
> a sword handle.  This could amount to some sort of vibro sword.
> Thoughts or comments?

Probably not. The most recent developments in melee weapons is the Israeli bayonet. And 
that development turns it into a wirecutter and bottle opener. Melee weapons are useless in a 
modern war, and are used as weapons only if you cannot get a real one (ie a gun)
The only melee weapons development is for crowd control and useless consists of better 
clubs, riot gases and plexiglas shields

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 97 18:30:27 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Ship AccomodationsCTD

On 01/11/97 at 09:59 AM,  Neveron@aol.com said:

> I cannot take credit for the entire post, mine is only the last bit about
> the air vent. You could indeed sleep against the wall, but you miss the
> drama of throwing youself on the bed after a long day.

Hee!  Hee!  We're a fun crew.  I write this *long* post about
Passenger Classes and Standard Accomidations and the only replies have to
do with a throw away line about sleeping in the closet.  <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:19:50 -0500
From: whitman@pensys.com (Ken Whitman)
Subject: Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss

Sam Thomas wrote:

>Ken,
>
>This sounds neat but it sounds like that is the reason for the INFLATED
>prices on CSC and AA. Other small game companies have better value for your
>money. Example BTRC smaller than SP/FFE/IG, new issue of 3G, more pages per
>buck. If the artwork is causing the price to go up, ditch the artwork. Also
>about this movie feldercarb, not even gaming giant TSR has pulled off a
>movie deal. It does not matter how pretty we wrap garbage in deluxe gift
>wrapping paper, it is still garbage just in pretty package. Most gamers want
>value for their money, yes a pretty package will attract our eyes, but
>content versus value will be the deciding factors.
>
>If it had not been for VDS in CSC I would not have bought it, and I still
>feel that I was gouged on the price. As for AA I will wait for my FLGS
>quarterly "shelf queen" sale to maybe pick it up.
>
>Sinbad Sam

I would like to go down on the records stating that all price increases
were invoked after I had official left IG.  I was always againt this and I
too feel  the prices are to high.  $20 was pussing it.  But thats out of my
hands now.

Sincerely,

Ken Whitman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 23:45:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Led Mirage <lmirage@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: Calling Out the Ten

On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> Most of us dogged Starships pretty well, and rightly so.  But, I've 
> gotta say that I'm not seeing that kind of uproar, either way, for 
> any of these three new products.  I believe that IG deserved the 
> pounding they got for that crap of a book, Starships, but I also 
> believe that when they do something right, then we should shout with 
> the same fiercness that we do when they screw up.
> 
> C'mon everyone!  These three products are LIGHT YEARS ahead of 
> Starships in terms of quality and worth.

So? I've only gotten CSC, but its adequate at best. Certainly nothing
spectacular. And at that price, I debated for a LONG time to justify
buying it. 
 
> TNE?  Well, let's not go into that.  I think whoever was in charge of 
> the art for that game should be shot.

Huh? The art in TNE is WAY more provocative than any of that T4 stuff.
I've often found myself staring at the pictures in the various TNE books
and just picturing that scene in my mind.
 
> Surprisingly, I don't mind many of Foss' equipment illos either.  I 
> still think that they could be done better

Ugh! Those B&W stuff were downright ugly. No wonder Foss did so many B&W
illustrations, they were just prelim. sketches.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:59:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: What is 'Travelleresque'?

> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 08:23:30 -0800
> From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
> 
> What I seem to be reading is that Travelleresque art is supposed to
> take into account the laws of physics as we know them and as they are
> postulated by Traveller design sequences. It is also supposed to be
> true to the design parameters provided by these same sequences (such
> as volume, mass, material strength, etc.).

That's a good start at defining "Travelleresque" art.  For each detail in
the illustration, I want to be able to do two things:

(a) Assign that detail to some known component of the design, without
    over-straining credibility, and

(b) Relate that detail to engineering and physics as they are currently
    known, and as they have been extended in Traveller.

Thus, for example, ships with Mech-like claws on the front fail (a), as no
designs I've seen include claws comprising about half the total ship
displacement. 

> So we're talking about art which agrees with the engineering adage of
> "form follows function"?  A great idea but a little tough for
> commercial artists who have never played Traveller, let alone walked
> through the design sequences which, we all pretty much agree, are
> broken. And this is assuming someone tells them which one is
> "official" (T4, QSDS, SSDS, FF&S, High Guard, CT).

While the various ship-design sequences differ on details, and will
produce ships differing in ratios of hull volume used for various systems,
the broad outlines remain the same in terms of interstellar drive systems,
weapons, fuel, hull configurations (when these were specified),
approximate crew/displacement ratios, and so forth.  An illustration
corresponding to any one of these design sequences would satisfy me in all
of them, within the slop permitted by my point (a) above.

> Sounds like we want a commercially successful artist with a deep
> understanding of engineering concepts and with experience
> generating Traveller designs.

I'd settle for just a deep understanding of engineering concepts.  Someone
who knows on a gut level that you don't stick massive objects out on
slender pylons without a damn good reason, that you don't put heavy
aerodynamically meaningless fins on a design without a damn good reason,
and so forth.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 06:56:44 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Re: Calling Out the Ten

On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:11:38 +0000, you wrote:


>Most of us dogged Starships pretty well, and rightly so.  But, I've=20
>gotta say that I'm not seeing that kind of uproar, either way, for=20
>any of these three new products.  I believe that IG deserved the=20
>pounding they got for that crap of a book, Starships, but I also=20
>believe that when they do something right, then we should shout with=20
>the same fiercness that we do when they screw up.

I haven't seen the JTAS yet, but I agree that the starship book isn't
very good. I like the way UCP sheet is, but it do lack some info, as
what kind of drive. Duration in g-hours for reaction drives. And
inconsisties like a UCP-1 laser knocks out a maneuverdrive of a
100000ton ship and so on.=20

But neither was I impressed by the CSC. The equipment is good, but the
design sequences are just laughable. I stick to FF&S for my designs
and adapt them to T4 characters.

The Alien Archives (AA) I liked. It gave room for new plot twists.
Allthough I did miss our usual aliens, but then again we know most of
them by heart.



- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 06:56:47 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: T4 Lasers

As I am an avid laser designer, I wonder how the T4 rules handles
laser turrets and barbettes with multiple Focal Arrays. With some
smart design techniques there is possible to have, lets say, 7 arrays
with a ROF of 800 each.=20

In TNE this isn't hard to resolve, but in T4 I have my doubts. And
what about point defense lasers. As there isn't a "movement" based
combat system it is hard to envision their use.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:20:01 -0800
From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
Subject: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

I'm sorry, folks, but I need to get something off my chest.

If it won't get me thrown out of the temple, I'd like to question =96-
strongly -- the apparent widespread assumption that that Fire, Fusion, &
Steel ought to be used virtually verbatim as the new tech design system
for T4. As a veteran gamer, Traveller fan, and professional technical
writer, I think that's completely frigging insane. Then again, I have a
pretty fair idea as to how this apparent insanity came about:

See, unless I miss my guess, you all seem to be male, highly
intelligent, and largely in your thirties and forties; and you seem to
blithely assume that anybody who lacks that smarts and savvy just needs
to get properly trained. That anyone may not WANT to get trained, may in
fact just want to roll up their sleeves and work =96 or, in this case,
play =96 seems not to occur to you. Neither does the blindingly obvious
truth that it is easier for 99% of humanity to LOOK THINGS UP than to
FIGURE THINGS OUT. Especially when you're in the midst of learning
something unfamiliar and new.

In other words, you're typical code jockeys.

I work with people like you all the time. I have drunk many beers and
eaten much sushi and had many shouting, fist-pounding arguments with
them while small crowds of non-techies looked on in dismay, not
understanding that none of it was personal. I prefer working with coders
and engineers, because they are brutally honest and monomaniacally
results-oriented -=96 which I like -- and don't take it amiss if you are
the same way =96- something I'm gambling rather heavily on right now. But
the problem is that most of them are out to design the Best System, the
Killer App, come hell or high water, and irrespective of whether or not
anybody but another coder can use it.=20

I, on the other hand, am out to make sure that everybody understands
what the hell they are doing and write it all down in plain English.
These are not usually compatible goals. That which is the best tool for
the job may not necessarily be the best tool for the user.=20

A friend of my uncle's owns a 338 Winchester Magnum. It is the elk gun
par excellence. But alas! It kicks too much for my liking. It bruises my
shoulder and scares the crap out of me, for I am not built like a
football player. I will use my 30-06 Springfield, and simply be very,
very careful with my shot placement. The .338 is better. But it is no
good for ME.=20

FF&S is the .338 WinMag of design systems. You guys are built like
football players, so you don't notice the recoil. You are coders who
think that everybody should own a UNIX workstation, while most ordinary
people just need something unintimidating that is understandable and
that works. Like a Mac. Or Ellison's Internet box. Or an electric
typewriter.

As far as game complexity goes=85 well=85.. how do you KNOW that an NPAW
needs a separate homopolar generator, which must be computed and
included all by itself? Have you built one lately=85.?

Y'know, my gaming buddies have a favorite term for extrapolative
technologies =96 "bullshittium." You know. Mithril. Adamantium.
Transparent aluminum. Coherent superdense. Lanthanum grids. Orcrist.
Wolverine's skeleton. Magic materials with mythical properties.
Bullshittium. You guys are debating the minutae of the physical
performance and properties of things that don't even exist; and by
blithely insisting these 'findings' be included in any upcoming set of
rules, you're inflicting this nit-picky level of detail on everybody
else. And you're so wrapped up in this cozy superhard-SF cocoon that you
apparently don't even realize that you're actually just arguing over
bullshittium. To build a successful game design system, it is not
necessary to give everybody a crash course in the True Nature of
Bullshittium.

Don't get mad at me. It's neat, it adds realism, and I enjoy watching it
from the sidelines. I learn things. I get ideas. It adds verisimilitude.
It's why I joined this digest. But it cannot be part of a workable,
marketeable GAME SYSTEM for everybody else.=20

I repeat: T4 is not -- cannot be, if it is to do anything more than T:NE
did (which was to limp along on three cylinders for a few years and then
poop out entirely) =96 an actual blueprint for creating extrapolative
future technologies. It is, must be, first and foremost, a GAME SYSTEM.
At some level, extrapolative physics and realistic levels of complexity
have to take a back seat to user-friendliness.=20

By way of a single example, drawn from the last couple of digests: What
is Striker II? Is it still in print? If not, why must I rely on an
obsolescent, out-of-print work to make the present vehicle design system
fit the present starship design system? And even if I do find a copy,
WHY THE FLYING FRIGGING FRACK do I have to look up two different values
in two different books and perform three different mathematical
computations to find the armor value for one small craft? That isn't
practical.

(Anybody ever play D&D back in high school? Remember how they used to
have nineteen different kinds of polearms? and a table recording the
effect of each particular weapon on each kind of armor? Did you ever
meet ANYBODY who ever actually used that? And that blurb on page 114 of
FF&S about having to figure out atmospheric performance for your NPAW
each time it is used. Who wrote this? Did they really think anybody
would do this? What kind of drugs were they on? Why weren't they
sharing?)

Toughness? Thickness? The angle and degree of the slope? and =96 Jesus H.
Christ! -- the effect on internal volume? (Does sloping armor help if
the enemy is in a grav tank, shooting at you from above? Do you figure
that out separately? If magnetic shielding is so great, how come it
isn't on starships?) Sod that! as the British say. Tell me what you told
me in SSDS =96 how much protection, how expensive, how heavy, how much
room. Et cetera. I'll even go to the extra trouble of figuring out the
G-rating and volume of the internal structure, because it makes me feel
all technical. Gives me shivers all over.

Yes, I will gladly use SSDS; and so will a lot of other fierce-eyed
fanatic gearheads who want to custom-build and fine-tune vehicles and
starships that are so thoroughly efficient within the confines of that
particular game system that you will have a small but palpable advantage
over anybody who doesn't do the same. That is my thing; my trade; my
evil bag. I am an evil little design mavin, yes I am; I who built a Car
Wars compact car capable of destroying a semi in a head-on collision; I
who built a 35-ton BattleMech with a PPC that didn't overheat and
reduced the rest of my gaming group to smoldering snail snot; I, who
back when 'hard points' still determined how many weapons turrets you
could put on your ship, designed a Fleet Point Defense System of
floating five-ton missile batteries linked together via robotic control,
so that a handful of men could fight the entire invading Zhodani fleet=85.
which we did, and blew 'em to hell, the rotten pointy-headed bastards=85..
ho, ho, ho=85=20

But SSDS is still three times as complex as 80% of the gaming community
needs or will ever use. Wildstar's QSDS represents the 'plug-n-play'
ideal. I freely admit that, and I will never be as thoroughly hard-core
as you guys. Neither will anybody else that I can think of. Certainly
not enough to support a mass-market game system.

Magnetic shielding? Megajoules to megawatts? Designing, building, then
keeping track of -- in an actual game, mind -- the G-rating, speed, and
placement of the missiles you shoot? and the sensor locks and fire
control capacity of the launcher that flings them out there? For each
launcher, for each SHIP? Holy shit and tomato juice, as my Dad used to
say. Do you guys really do this? My hat's off to you, but=85 this is NOT
going to sell books beyond the initial printing. It didn't for T:NE. It
won't for T4.

So=85. how exactly do I suggest that you simplify FF&S without yielding a=
n
inch in hard-SF look, feel, and utility as the basic building block upon
which the entire gaming universe will run?=20

Easy. Fold all those goddam sub-components and sub-systems and
sub-everything-ies into the component itself. You only have to torture
your calculator once, instead of many times. Give the formula in
algebraic terms for all the math people, then for God's sake explain it
step-by-step in plain English. For everything. Armor doesn't need
slopes, or electromagnetic shielding, or toughness. It needs an Armor
Value, and a weight and bulk based on whatever bullshittium it's made
out of. This the real world we're talking about =96 the gaming one, not
the futuristic-physics one.

Example: Fold the fire control, homopolar-whatsis, beam pointer, crew
workstation, and tunnel all into one single formula for creating a
spinal-mount NPAW, modified by the tech level, the size, and the power
rating. (Screw figuring out the tunnel diameter =96 assume a default valu=
e
of the best possible: .125 of the tunnel length). Damage can simply be
based on tunnel length times megawatts modified by TL divided by
something else for each range band. What good is any single component
without any other? Why make people jump through all these hoops to do
something that ought to be a very simple, one-step kind of a deal?
Detailed should not equal difficult.

Keep the subsystems and various components. They mark the difference
between hard SF and 'space opera', which is basically just D&D with a
high-tech glaze. Whole adventures can hinge on getting that one
maddeningly unavailable little doo-dad you need to reactivate the spinal
mount on that relic ship so you can blow the crud out of the bad guys
and save your homeworld. But they should only appear in the section
describing the physics of the weapon or system, along with a highly
detailed =96 and completely optional =96 crit-hit/maintenance list. NOT i=
n
the design sequence. That's sadistic.

Same goes for passive EMS arrays =96 why not average the processor, price=
,
volume, etc. into the antenna? Is a sensor array WITHOUT a CPU going to
be any good? Why make some hapless teenager reinvent the wheel every
time they want something new? Stick the processor where it belongs =96 in
a sidebar detailing what passive EM sensor arrays are and how they work,
along with a crit-hit/maintenance list. "Well, sir, when our passive
array took that last laser hit, the (rattle, roll) antenna survived, but
the processor is fried. We'll need a new one. It'll take (rattle, roll)
5 hours at the nearest starport=85" Mock realism. Internal mechanics laid
bare. Adventure fodder.  Good stuff.

And while we're dwelling on passive EMS arrays, eliminate the value for
antenna diameter. Go with surface area alone. "Obviously, if you don't
have enough surface area left for the passive array you want, you'll
have to go with a folding array, but boy! Are they expensive! And don't
try to unfurl it in an atmosphere, or in combat!" That's really all
that's needed. I can make a good argument that our EMS passive antennae
doesn't have to be round. It can be lots of little odd-shaped flaps that
stick up, or even something that looks like a colossal braking parachute
with microsensors embedded in it =96 any bizarre device you can think of=20
to multiply surface area.  Making our hypothetical teenager flip back
and forth and look up how long his hull is versus the diameter of the
antenna will make him refer to two books at once, which =96 although this
may surprise you -- for most people is confusing and annoying. It is a
tech-writing no-no.

As far as missiles go, I already covered that in a long rant to Dave
Golden. To heck with G-ratings. Keep missiles generic and the design of
the launchers simple:

'Missile turrets are for engaging multiple targets, and for small craft.
Missile bays are for flooding single opponents with colossal doses of
firepower. The economy of their respective designs clearly reflects
this. Missile bays are more volume-efficient, but you can only shoot at
one guy at a time. It's a good way to put a lot of lead downwind, which
is good for little things like heroic Imperial system defense boats
(yay!) fighting big things like alien dreadnaughts (boo! hiss!).'

'If you're designing your own missile launcher, then for each missile
tube the fire control mechanism takes X power & X volume at X tech
level. The standard turrets, barbettes, and 50- and 100-ton bays all
have that junk included in the overall size and cost of the weapons
system. The number of missiles in each volley simply depends on how many
tubes you have. Bigger volleys are obviously harder to stop and do more
damage than little ones, which is why bays are better than little
dinky-assed turrets -- unless the opponent launches nine hundred
fighters at you. Then missile turrets become good again. See?'

'When you shoot at somebody with a missile volley, they get to try to
shoot 'em down, much in the same way as you'd try to stop a laser with a
sandcaster. Since missiles are slower than lasers, the results from
missile fire are computed after everything else(?). But since each space
combat turn is a whole half an hour, and since missiles are assumed to
accelerate at speeds that would turn any pilot into organic goo, they
hit the same turn as they're launched... just like in Classic- and
Mega-Traveller, before GDW put themselves out of business by publishing
a game system so thoroughly researched, elegant, and realistic that
nobody outside of a few math geeks from MIT understood it.'

(I hope I didn't piss him off with that. I was mad when I wrote it,
because I had just spent all day designing a Conflict-class destroyer
escort, the pride and backbone of the Arcadian aerospace fleet=85. And I
had to junk it because the bays didn't have enough MFD's, which isn't
explained in the rules; and because even if I added extra MFD's I had
odd missiles left over from every salvo, which just plain annoyed me.
None of which is his fault=85 but if some dingbat at an Imperial shipyard
built a weapons system that could only use half the missiles it shot =96
which is what FF&S currently forces you to do with standard-sized
missile launchers -- they would keelhaul him around the hull of his own
ship without benefit of a vacc suit).

Those are just brief examples, but I'm sure you get my drift.
User-friendly and detailed are not mutually exclusive. Simple does not
mean dumb. For the up-&-coming Naval Architect's Handbook, we need to be
looking for little things that we can lump together into big things,
which in turn will form the guts of the updated SSDS. This will enable
us to:

1) Maintain compatibility with SSDS & QSDS (once they're reconciled with
each other), and all of the ships designed with the (corrected) current
version of each,

2) Maintain compatibility with all your pet FF&S designs, including all
those high-G missiles and other weird thingies,

3) Keep the faith with the original hard-SF feel of the game, and

4) Enable average functional adults and bright kids with regular (not
scientific!) calculators to spawn a new generation of gearheads that
will make T4 live and breath and jump and become a viable long-term
entity. I dunno about you, but I don't want to spend another $200 on
books and then wind up the RPG equivalent of an Amiga owner. I felt that
way before, when GDW went under. Not again, thanks.

To insist that SSDS is acceptable as an intermediate level of complexity
and to leave NAH to the hard-core gearheads like yourselves is simply
not acceptable. SSDS is okay, but it is still only screwdriver assembly
of somebody else's pre-generated components. To actually design
something new, you need FF&S, or something like it. And the bugger
simply does not need to be as complicated as it is. It doesn't. The
sonofabitch was doomed as soon as it came off the presses. To militantly
insist otherwise will doom Imperium Games to the same slow death by
strangulation as doomed its predecessor.

I am not preaching compromise, but improvement. I'm trying not just to
complain. I'm trying to be specific as possible. But the general tenor
of the discussions in this digest seems to hover in a cloud of
high-octane, cutting-edge unreality. If you want to help make T4 a
success, you need to shake that off, and bend your really amazing wealth
of gaming experience and brain power to creating a design system for the
other 99% of the human race.

And no. I'm not being sarcastic.

Long Live The Imperium!

- -- Jay Stranahan,
Redneck Tech Writer At Large

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #831
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 12 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 832



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Lots of complaints
Re: Starships is broken, too!
Re: Lots of complaints
Melee weapons
Re: Lots of complaints
Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss
Re: Calling Out the Ten
Re: Lots of complaints
Re: (David Smart)Adventure storyline problem
Pax Rulin and Egryn
Futuristic Melee Weapons
Re: Lots of complaints
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: Starships is broken, too!
T4 Errata postings
Re: Lots of complaints
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
[Fwd: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 06:26:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Lots of complaints

Hi folks,

I'm rather dismayed at the number of complaints about IG products that 
surfaced in the last two days.  I was with you during the introduction of 
T4, which was a fiasco (the few major errors, the many minor errors; the 
way the hardbacks were shipped).  I was with you during the _Starships_ 
introduction, which was another fiasco (other than SSDS, the book is a 
loss).  I agreed with many of the complaints, and I worked with IG to let 
them know what we all thought.

Now, though, I'm at a loss.  Things are much better, and getting even 
better in the future.  Once upon a time, the IG web site was badly 
neglected.  Now, it's becoming a great place to get product info, and 
even to discuss the products with their new forums.  CSC and Aliens have 
much much less artwork, and none of it is sitting in the middle of the 
design system.  And both books have a great deal of useful information 
that referees can begin using right away.  Milieu 0 and First Survey 
will be back from the printer on January 23, which means they're only a 
month late (as opposed to Starships, which was 3 months late).  JTAS is 
finally out, and it looks pretty good (it could use more articles, but 
then we can fix that by sending our submissions to them).  IG will be 
providing, free of charge, the fixes to Starships, via their web site.  
They've improved their shipping methods.  The editing has improved 
greatly since T4 was released.  The list of things they've done to 
improve T4 goes on and on.


The only pending issues I see are:

1)  Lack of a detailed setting.  Well, M0 and First Survey will be in 
stores by early February.  Whether IG should have released them before 
now is a moot point.  It does no good to complain about that, as IG can't 
go exactly fix that now (at least not without a "Wayback" machine[G]).

2)  Graphic Design.  As I reported a few weeks ago, Marc Miller is in 
discussion with IG to bring on a professional graphic designer.  

3)  Price.  As I've said so many times before, the marketplace will 
dictate whether the price they've chosen is correct.  At this point, IG 
is very happy with T4's sales.  So, they have no reason to change the 
price.

4)  Design systems.  No design system can be all things to all people.  I 
personally like QSDS a lot, and will have little use for SSDS.  I've 
never designed a vehicle for any system other than HERO, so I doubt I'll 
use VDS.  I have very different design system needs than those who want more 
detailed systems, or different approaches to design.  I bet there are a 
lot of folks out there, buying T4, who are not on this list and who will 
never use a design system.  Others will think the design systems provided 
are great.  These lists tend to be very design-oriented, although 
different approaches are advocated.  I forsee this being a contentious 
issue on TML no matter what IG does.

So, where there is a clear, reasonable solution, IG is taking action.  In 
other areas, there is no clear alternative to pursue, so IG shouldn't be 
taking any action.

I had expected that, by now folks would be more positive about T4's 
future.  Are Ken Bearden and I the only ones who think Aliens and CSC are 
praise-worthy?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 08:00:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Starships is broken, too!

On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Phillip McGregor wrote:

> CSC - Good product, even though the VDS is *badly* broken, entirely because
> of the ridiculous constraints that Greg had to operate under.

Ah, so you do like CSC?  Great to hear it!


> Alien Archive - an insult to the intelligence. Useless artwork. Mega-sized
> print like you'd get in a kiddies story book -- padding out the page count,
> and, of course, the price.

But what do you think of the actual text content?  Is the material the 
book contains useful?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 08:15:00 -0600
From: "J.D. Burdick" <twolf@tfs.net>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints

At 06:26 AM 1/12/97 -0600, Joe wrote:
>
>I had expected that, by now folks would be more positive about T4's 
>future.  Are Ken Bearden and I the only ones who think Aliens and CSC are 
>praise-worthy?
>
Joe, no you are not the only ones.  You have to remember the 5% rule.  That
rule is based on the idea that you cannot please everyone all of the time.
There are about 500 individuals on this list.  Using the 5% rule, there will
be 25 people that will complain regardless of what happens.  These 25 would
complain if they won the lottery, (eg. it's not enough or why do I get a
$1,000,000 annuity instead of cash).  There is a fraction of our society
that can't be pleased cuz they don't know what they want.

Joe, you are right.  IG seems to be getting their act together.  I am
actually starting to look forward to M:0 and the First Survey.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:25:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Melee weapons

 on Jan 11 marz@hotstar.net (Mused)
> Melee weapons are useless in a 
>modern war, and are used as weapons only if you cannot get a real one (ie a
>gun)
>The only melee weapons development is for crowd control and useless consists
>of better 
>clubs, riot gases and plexiglas shields
In a full blown battle, yes, a melee weapon is foolish, but what about a
boarding action, especially if you don't want to risk damaging the ship being
boarded. Asssins are also fond of hand to hand weapons....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 08:41:03 CST
From: galliand@juno.com (Scott M Galliand)
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints

>Joe, no you are not the only ones.  You have to remember the 5% rule.  
>That rule is based on the idea that you cannot please everyone all of
the 
>time.  There are about 500 individuals on this list.  Using the 5% rule,

>there will be 25 people that will complain regardless of what happens. 
These 25 
>would complain if they won the lottery, (eg. it's not enough or why do I
get 
>a $1,000,000 annuity instead of cash).  There is a fraction of our
society
>that can't be pleased cuz they don't know what they want.
>
>Joe, you are right.  IG seems to be getting their act together.  I am
>actually starting to look forward to M:0 and the First Survey.

Another reason could be taht people just haven't had a chance to look at
it or take a good look at some of it yet.

Take my case, for example.  I live in Louisiana, where we are, literally,
the last to get anything.  The really big games down here are AD&D,
magic, and sometimes GURPS.  I was lucky, and I mean LUCKY to find a
softbound T4 within a month after its release (I was smart enough to
preorder the hardbound).  I still haven't seen Starships, Aliens, or CSC
yet.  When they DO appear (at least in New Orleans) we only see 1, maybe
two copies of an item.  And you literally have to have the luck to win
the lottery to find any magazines besides the CCG mags and Dragon
magazine (Although we just DID get a Barnes & Noble whihc caries Arcane
magazine.)

And I was one of those who ordered a single issue of JTAS #25 when I
ordered T4.  I still haven't seen that yet.

What I've seen of the Traveller stuff I have so far I've liked.  If I
didn't, I wouldn't have bought it.  Sure, I do have some problems with it
like others.  My problem is that I would have liked to seen more detailed
examples of some of the stuff.  I think it would have been smart of IG to
do a walkthrough of QSDS.  But otherwise, I think its pretty good.

Scott Galliand

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 08:50:02 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> No, I don't think that we are requiring a Traveller artist to be that
> familiar with generating Traveller designs--although it helps.
> 
> Look at the cover to CSC, for an example.  I think that this is very
> Traveller, and this was something Foss did a long time ago.
      <snip>
> For me, there are very few pictures in the CSC that do not pass this
> test.  I wasn't expecting to accept many of them much less like a
> few.
> 
> Here's the ones, IMO, that do not pass the test (and this doesn't
> mean that I prefer all of the other ones--just that they pass my
> believeability test and I can buy that they could exist).
            <snip>
> How's that for examples.
> 
> Kenneth.

I would say you nailed it. Looks like we have very similar tastes. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:10:40 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Calling Out the Ten

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> It is human nature to dwell on things that are bad.  This is one
> reason for the evening news, gossip,  and rubbernecking.
> 
> I remember a class I had in consumer behavior when I was in school.
> One of the points the prof made was that the old adage that you have
> to make ten customers very happy before you can make up for the
> damage that one dissatisfied one will do is true.
> 
> What do these thoughts have to do with Traveller?  Well, I just
> bought the CSC, Aliens, and JTAS today, and I'm calling in the 10 to
> stand up.
> 
> Most of us dogged Starships pretty well, and rightly so.  But, I've
> gotta say that I'm not seeing that kind of uproar, either way, for
> any of these three new products.  I believe that IG deserved the
> pounding they got for that crap of a book, Starships, but I also
> believe that when they do something right, then we should shout with
> the same fiercness that we do when they screw up.

Hear, hear! Thanks for getting me off my duff. IG is definitely made
improvements. I *really* like Aliens Archive because the aliens *are*
alien and not just humans in a monster suit. The writeup on the
Controlled was especially disturbing (in a cool kind of way) because
I can see the reasoning for actions taken by the race and the
Imperium (talk about the law of the jungle). Makes me kinda wonder
just how far the Imperium really will go when facing "a clear and
present danger." Any member of the Controlled would make one
incredible subversion weapon...any confusion now as to how the
Imperium moved so far, so fast?

Aside from the errata, CSC is a welcome addition to my collection.
The rules for dealing with temperature are great, IMO; does the
job without being complicated. And after playing Traveller since
1980, it's nice to finally have something describing the effects
of vacuum on the human body.

But the piece de resistance was JTAS. I love the idea of having
a publication dedicated solely to Traveller. The 100 Cargos by
Jo Grant (congrats, Jo!) and the short stories help add to the
background atmosphere of the game and not just for newbies.

Two thumbs (and my hopes) up for IG!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:26:03 -0500
From: russcm@zoomnet.net (Christopher M. Russell)
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints

>What I've seen of the Traveller stuff I have so far I've liked.  If I
>didn't, I wouldn't have bought it.  Sure, I do have some problems with it
>like others.  My problem is that I would have liked to seen more detailed
>examples of some of the stuff.  I think it would have been smart of IG to
>do a walkthrough of QSDS.  But otherwise, I think its pretty good.

My $0.02, perhaps a walkthrough would be something good to add to the IG web
page when there is time.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:29:03 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: (David Smart)Adventure storyline problem

Goran Sjoberg wrote:
> 
> At 20:38 1997-01-10 -0800, you wrote:
> >How in the heck do they do maintenance on this thing? Some materials
> 
> Well.. They haven't. They just fly it as long as it works while the ships
> tech is having a hellova time just trying to analyze it. The only reason
> they even got the ship working was because of the robot steward whose name
> is... Steward.  :)

Makes sense. My players will be in a similar situation once they
discover a ship built by one of *my* old PCs. He actually ran across
the TL17 world in the Vanguard Reaches and had a ship built which
incorporated some of the Ancient portals from the Secret of the
Ancients adventure. Maintenance is handled by a device called an
Eternity Circuit from Paranoia Press's Merchants & Merchandise.

Built using FF&S, the thing is crewed mainly by robots, has a 9G
acceleration rating, Jump 6, and the armor and fire power of a light
cruiser (well, almost). All in a 482 dton hull.

Can't wait to see what they do with it. Hmmm...then again...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 08:32:57 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Pax Rulin and Egryn

Does anyone know where I can get fleshed out descriptions for the
Egryn and Pax Rulin subsectors? I'm interested in the UPPs around the
year 1105. I don't need the stuff in Leviathan; I'm talking about
complete solar system descriptions (moons, belts, gas giants, etc).

Thanks
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:40:02 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Futuristic Melee Weapons

Brad Urwiller wrote:
<massive snippage>
> I mean by TL15 I thought maybe something more advanced than just cold
> steel would appear.  My thoughts lie along the line of vibro or shock
> weapons.  For example Using FFS what if we added a small fuel cell and a
> homopolar generator plus XX volume of miscallaeneous gear and fit it in
> a sword handle.  This could amount to some sort of vibro sword.
> Thoughts or comments?

I also like the idea of vibro, shock, or monomolecular weapons (though
the latter may be a stretch). Given advances in biology and material
sciences, there should be corresponding advances in close combat
weaponry, IMO.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 07:46:10 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints

At 06:26 AM 1/12/97 -0600, Joseph E. Walsh wrote:

>The only pending issues I see are:
>
>1)  Lack of a detailed setting.  Well, M0 and First Survey will be in 
>stores by early February.  Whether IG should have released them before 
>now is a moot point.  It does no good to complain about that, as IG can't 
>go exactly fix that now (at least not without a "Wayback" machine[G]).

I understand that the BITS/CORE people had quite a bit of influence on these
products.. this is a *good thing*

>2)  Graphic Design.  As I reported a few weeks ago, Marc Miller is in 
>discussion with IG to bring on a professional graphic designer. 

This should be an IG priority.. I don't mind Foss art on the covers, but the
quality of layout and interior art should be addressed now that editing and
distribution are improving. 

>3)  Price.  As I've said so many times before, the marketplace will 
>dictate whether the price they've chosen is correct.  At this point, IG 
>is very happy with T4's sales.  So, they have no reason to change the 
>price.

My FNSLGS has sold out of everything for Traveller, and has stuff on
backorder, so the prices can't be hurting them that badly.

>I had expected that, by now folks would be more positive about T4's 
>future.  Are Ken Bearden and I the only ones who think Aliens and CSC are 
>praise-worthy?

NO!  I loved Aliens, I got ideas from every entry; and CSC had some fun
stuff and good rules.. haven't had time to use the VDS yet, so I can't
comment on that.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 07:46:08 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

I'm not going to bother quoting, since I only want to make a few points
about the rant.

First off, I am a gearhead.  The highpoint of my week was picking up the new
3G3.  That being said, I can now reveal my dark secret to the list:

In 1983 I dropped out of High School to join the Army.  At the time, I had a
GPA of 0.5, and had failed pre-Algerbra *four* times.  I never attended
college, and depend on my wife to actually code html for my web pages.

However, starting with Striker, I started to make myself learn math, and how
to use a scientific calculator so I could design things.  With
MegaTraveller, I had to learn even more to use World Builder's, 3G3, and the
ship design sequences.  The same with FF&S.  (BTW: If you find FF&S complex,
don't even pick up GURPS Vehicles 2nd ed)

I will admit, designing ships/vehicles/weapons is hard work, but when I end
up with a good design, it's something I can be proud of.

Now, as to the need for complex designs in Traveller.  Traveller is a "hard"
SF game.  There are really only three areas that the technology is glossed
over with hand-waving and technobabble:  jump drive, gravitics, and fusion
power.  Everything else is based on what we know, and best guesses about the
future.

A good example of what happens when you aren't rigorous in your design is
the much-abused luxury liner in Starships.  Within a week of the book's
release, people were posting about how broken the design was.  The same
thing will happen to me if I toss a piece of equpment in to my game without
engineering it carefully.  My players demand a consistant universe!

Using FF&S, or 3G3, or any realistic design sequence requires some patience,
but the results are well worth it.



+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:13:52 -0600
From: Ernest N Rowland <erowland@ionet.net>
Subject: Re: Starships is broken, too!

> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:15:50 +1100
> From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
<snip>
> I am getting increasingly angry at the slapdash efforts and cavalier
<snip>

I hate to add fuel to the fire, but I think your list of IG's problems has
problems of its own.  I'll admit I was disappointed with T4 and Starships, but
CSC and Alien Archives were decent books (and I've only seen minor quibbles
about them on this list); I don't have JTAS, but other than the subscription
SNAFU (which IG cleared up quickly), I don't remember seeing _any_ negative
comments about it, and several positive ones - enough that I am going to
subscribe to it now.

Remember that no gaming company can react as fast as the criticisms can fly on
the 'net.  And have you actually seen the new Web site?  A great improvement!

I guess I'm still willing to give IG a chance, because I am seeing significant
improvement in things already.  And I don't see any point in blasting them for
prior mistakes, since they are already aware of these problems.

8-)
Ernest N Rowland
erowland@ionet.net
"The flag is solid red, except where a thin ring-shaped hole has been cut
out of it, through which one can see the sky."-GEB:EGB

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:20:55 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: T4 Errata postings

In case some of you haven't seen it yet, the T4 errata compiled from
the TML has been posted to the IG web page. Those of you who have 
may have noticed some entries being combined. This was due to my
including page breaks in the doc I sent IG. In other words, the
screwup was my fault, not theirs. I'm working with Dave Bullock
to correct this forthwith.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:47:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints

On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Christopher M. Russell wrote:

> My $0.02, perhaps a walkthrough would be something good to add to the IG web
> page when there is time.

Excellent suggestion.  Since Suzette Dollar has walkthrough sessions 
planned for #traveller, perhaps the folks doing those walkthroughs can 
send their example to Dave for inclusion in the web site after the 
walk-through sessions take place.  

Rumors Dept.:  Look for an announcement soon of the new Gearhead night on 
#traveller.  Walk-throughs of QSDS, SSDS, VDS, and 3G3 are in the works.  
Suz has done a phenominal job of making #traveller a great place for 
those who enjoy Traveller to hang out.  Now it looks like she has plans 
to improve upon her success.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:49:37 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

JayStr wrote:
>=20
> I'm sorry, folks, but I need to get something off my chest.
>=20
> If it won't get me thrown out of the temple, I'd like to question =96-
> strongly -- the apparent widespread assumption that that Fire, Fusion, =
&
> Steel ought to be used virtually verbatim as the new tech design system
> for T4.
<massive snippage>

Speaking as someone who absolutely loves the TNE rules, especially
FF&S in all its complexity, I can only say one thing.

You have a point. :-)

Although I may be everything that you said (good and bad) and proud of
it, I was very happy to hear (before Starships was released) that the
ship/vehicle design sequences and combat were going to be simplified
but with backward compatibility with FF&S. I totally agree that for IG
to succeed, the T4 game mechanics (including the design sequences)
*must* be acceptable by the mass market.

Although Traveller is a "hard" SF game, being a code hacker and system
developer has taught me that a modular design is the *best* way to go
when designing something other folks will be interacting with. The
"plug and play" method works by far for most folks and I was really
hoping that incorporating it into Traveller would help boost its
playability.=20

Personally, I will be staying with FF&S because crunching numbers for
the absolutely most efficient design possible does help me blow away
someone using the off-the-shelf method. That satisfaction is my reward
for number crunching. *But*, when I'm helping a newbie design
something, I want the design sequence to go fast and easy and that
means "modular".

So before you get tossed out of the temple, they're going to have
first deal with me and my FF&S built TL17 Battledress and Arm Laser.

David Smart
Supporter of user-written software macros
Owner/Captain, SS Warlock
Gearhead

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 08:59:16 -0800
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: [Fwd: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS]

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I'm sorry, folks, but I need to get something off my chest.

If it won't get me thrown out of the temple, I'd like to question =96-
strongly -- the apparent widespread assumption that that Fire, Fusion, &
Steel ought to be used virtually verbatim as the new tech design system
for T4. As a veteran gamer, Traveller fan, and professional technical
writer, I think that's completely frigging insane. Then again, I have a
pretty fair idea as to how this apparent insanity came about:

See, unless I miss my guess, you all seem to be male, highly
intelligent, and largely in your thirties and forties; and you seem to
blithely assume that anybody who lacks that smarts and savvy just needs
to get properly trained. That anyone may not WANT to get trained, may in
fact just want to roll up their sleeves and work =96 or, in this case,
play =96 seems not to occur to you. Neither does the blindingly obvious
truth that it is easier for 99% of humanity to LOOK THINGS UP than to
FIGURE THINGS OUT. Especially when you're in the midst of learning
something unfamiliar and new.

In other words, you're typical code jockeys.

I work with people like you all the time. I have drunk many beers and
eaten much sushi and had many shouting, fist-pounding arguments with
them while small crowds of non-techies looked on in dismay, not
understanding that none of it was personal. I prefer working with coders
and engineers, because they are brutally honest and monomaniacally
results-oriented -=96 which I like -- and don't take it amiss if you are
the same way =96- something I'm gambling rather heavily on right now. But
the problem is that most of them are out to design the Best System, the
Killer App, come hell or high water, and irrespective of whether or not
anybody but another coder can use it.=20

I, on the other hand, am out to make sure that everybody understands
what the hell they are doing and write it all down in plain English.
These are not usually compatible goals. That which is the best tool for
the job may not necessarily be the best tool for the user.=20

A friend of my uncle's owns a 338 Winchester Magnum. It is the elk gun
par excellence. But alas! It kicks too much for my liking. It bruises my
shoulder and scares the crap out of me, for I am not built like a
football player. I will use my 30-06 Springfield, and simply be very,
very careful with my shot placement. The .338 is better. But it is no
good for ME.=20

FF&S is the .338 WinMag of design systems. You guys are built like
football players, so you don't notice the recoil. You are coders who
think that everybody should own a UNIX workstation, while most ordinary
people just need something unintimidating that is understandable and
that works. Like a Mac. Or Ellison's Internet box. Or an electric
typewriter.

As far as game complexity goes=85 well=85.. how do you KNOW that an NPAW
needs a separate homopolar generator, which must be computed and
included all by itself? Have you built one lately=85.?

Y'know, my gaming buddies have a favorite term for extrapolative
technologies =96 "bullshittium." You know. Mithril. Adamantium.
Transparent aluminum. Coherent superdense. Lanthanum grids. Orcrist.
Wolverine's skeleton. Magic materials with mythical properties.
Bullshittium. You guys are debating the minutae of the physical
performance and properties of things that don't even exist; and by
blithely insisting these 'findings' be included in any upcoming set of
rules, you're inflicting this nit-picky level of detail on everybody
else. And you're so wrapped up in this cozy superhard-SF cocoon that you
apparently don't even realize that you're actually just arguing over
bullshittium. To build a successful game design system, it is not
necessary to give everybody a crash course in the True Nature of
Bullshittium.

Don't get mad at me. It's neat, it adds realism, and I enjoy watching it
from the sidelines. I learn things. I get ideas. It adds verisimilitude.
It's why I joined this digest. But it cannot be part of a workable,
marketeable GAME SYSTEM for everybody else.=20

I repeat: T4 is not -- cannot be, if it is to do anything more than T:NE
did (which was to limp along on three cylinders for a few years and then
poop out entirely) =96 an actual blueprint for creating extrapolative
future technologies. It is, must be, first and foremost, a GAME SYSTEM.
At some level, extrapolative physics and realistic levels of complexity
have to take a back seat to user-friendliness.=20

By way of a single example, drawn from the last couple of digests: What
is Striker II? Is it still in print? If not, why must I rely on an
obsolescent, out-of-print work to make the present vehicle design system
fit the present starship design system? And even if I do find a copy,
WHY THE FLYING FRIGGING FRACK do I have to look up two different values
in two different books and perform three different mathematical
computations to find the armor value for one small craft? That isn't
practical.

(Anybody ever play D&D back in high school? Remember how they used to
have nineteen different kinds of polearms? and a table recording the
effect of each particular weapon on each kind of armor? Did you ever
meet ANYBODY who ever actually used that? And that blurb on page 114 of
FF&S about having to figure out atmospheric performance for your NPAW
each time it is used. Who wrote this? Did they really think anybody
would do this? What kind of drugs were they on? Why weren't they
sharing?)

Toughness? Thickness? The angle and degree of the slope? and =96 Jesus H.
Christ! -- the effect on internal volume? (Does sloping armor help if
the enemy is in a grav tank, shooting at you from above? Do you figure
that out separately? If magnetic shielding is so great, how come it
isn't on starships?) Sod that! as the British say. Tell me what you told
me in SSDS =96 how much protection, how expensive, how heavy, how much
room. Et cetera. I'll even go to the extra trouble of figuring out the
G-rating and volume of the internal structure, because it makes me feel
all technical. Gives me shivers all over.

Yes, I will gladly use SSDS; and so will a lot of other fierce-eyed
fanatic gearheads who want to custom-build and fine-tune vehicles and
starships that are so thoroughly efficient within the confines of that
particular game system that you will have a small but palpable advantage
over anybody who doesn't do the same. That is my thing; my trade; my
evil bag. I am an evil little design mavin, yes I am; I who built a Car
Wars compact car capable of destroying a semi in a head-on collision; I
who built a 35-ton BattleMech with a PPC that didn't overheat and
reduced the rest of my gaming group to smoldering snail snot; I, who
back when 'hard points' still determined how many weapons turrets you
could put on your ship, designed a Fleet Point Defense System of
floating five-ton missile batteries linked together via robotic control,
so that a handful of men could fight the entire invading Zhodani fleet=85.
which we did, and blew 'em to hell, the rotten pointy-headed bastards=85..
ho, ho, ho=85=20

But SSDS is still three times as complex as 80% of the gaming community
needs or will ever use. Wildstar's QSDS represents the 'plug-n-play'
ideal. I freely admit that, and I will never be as thoroughly hard-core
as you guys. Neither will anybody else that I can think of. Certainly
not enough to support a mass-market game system.

Magnetic shielding? Megajoules to megawatts? Designing, building, then
keeping track of -- in an actual game, mind -- the G-rating, speed, and
placement of the missiles you shoot? and the sensor locks and fire
control capacity of the launcher that flings them out there? For each
launcher, for each SHIP? Holy shit and tomato juice, as my Dad used to
say. Do you guys really do this? My hat's off to you, but=85 this is NOT
going to sell books beyond the initial printing. It didn't for T:NE. It
won't for T4.

So=85. how exactly do I suggest that you simplify FF&S without yielding a=
n
inch in hard-SF look, feel, and utility as the basic building block upon
which the entire gaming universe will run?=20

Easy. Fold all those goddam sub-components and sub-systems and
sub-everything-ies into the component itself. You only have to torture
your calculator once, instead of many times. Give the formula in
algebraic terms for all the math people, then for God's sake explain it
step-by-step in plain English. For everything. Armor doesn't need
slopes, or electromagnetic shielding, or toughness. It needs an Armor
Value, and a weight and bulk based on whatever bullshittium it's made
out of. This the real world we're talking about =96 the gaming one, not
the futuristic-physics one.

Example: Fold the fire control, homopolar-whatsis, beam pointer, crew
workstation, and tunnel all into one single formula for creating a
spinal-mount NPAW, modified by the tech level, the size, and the power
rating. (Screw figuring out the tunnel diameter =96 assume a default valu=
e
of the best possible: .125 of the tunnel length). Damage can simply be
based on tunnel length times megawatts modified by TL divided by
something else for each range band. What good is any single component
without any other? Why make people jump through all these hoops to do
something that ought to be a very simple, one-step kind of a deal?
Detailed should not equal difficult.

Keep the subsystems and various components. They mark the difference
between hard SF and 'space opera', which is basically just D&D with a
high-tech glaze. Whole adventures can hinge on getting that one
maddeningly unavailable little doo-dad you need to reactivate the spinal
mount on that relic ship so you can blow the crud out of the bad guys
and save your homeworld. But they should only appear in the section
describing the physics of the weapon or system, along with a highly
detailed =96 and completely optional =96 crit-hit/maintenance list. NOT i=
n
the design sequence. That's sadistic.

Same goes for passive EMS arrays =96 why not average the processor, price=
,
volume, etc. into the antenna? Is a sensor array WITHOUT a CPU going to
be any good? Why make some hapless teenager reinvent the wheel every
time they want something new? Stick the processor where it belongs =96 in
a sidebar detailing what passive EM sensor arrays are and how they work,
along with a crit-hit/maintenance list. "Well, sir, when our passive
array took that last laser hit, the (rattle, roll) antenna survived, but
the processor is fried. We'll need a new one. It'll take (rattle, roll)
5 hours at the nearest starport=85" Mock realism. Internal mechanics laid
bare. Adventure fodder.  Good stuff.

And while we're dwelling on passive EMS arrays, eliminate the value for
antenna diameter. Go with surface area alone. "Obviously, if you don't
have enough surface area left for the passive array you want, you'll
have to go with a folding array, but boy! Are they expensive! And don't
try to unfurl it in an atmosphere, or in combat!" That's really all
that's needed. I can make a good argument that our EMS passive antennae
doesn't have to be round. It can be lots of little odd-shaped flaps that
stick up, or even something that looks like a colossal braking parachute
with microsensors embedded in it =96 any bizarre device you can think of=20
to multiply surface area.  Making our hypothetical teenager flip back
and forth and look up how long his hull is versus the diameter of the
antenna will make him refer to two books at once, which =96 although this
may surprise you -- for most people is confusing and annoying. It is a
tech-writing no-no.

As far as missiles go, I already covered that in a long rant to Dave
Golden. To heck with G-ratings. Keep missiles generic and the design of
the launchers simple:

'Missile turrets are for engaging multiple targets, and for small craft.
Missile bays are for flooding single opponents with colossal doses of
firepower. The economy of their respective designs clearly reflects
this. Missile bays are more volume-efficient, but you can only shoot at
one guy at a time. It's a good way to put a lot of lead downwind, which
is good for little things like heroic Imperial system defense boats
(yay!) fighting big things like alien dreadnaughts (boo! hiss!).'

'If you're designing your own missile launcher, then for each missile
tube the fire control mechanism takes X power & X volume at X tech
level. The standard turrets, barbettes, and 50- and 100-ton bays all
have that junk included in the overall size and cost of the weapons
system. The number of missiles in each volley simply depends on how many
tubes you have. Bigger volleys are obviously harder to stop and do more
damage than little ones, which is why bays are better than little
dinky-assed turrets -- unless the opponent launches nine hundred
fighters at you. Then missile turrets become good again. See?'

'When you shoot at somebody with a missile volley, they get to try to
shoot 'em down, much in the same way as you'd try to stop a laser with a
sandcaster. Since missiles are slower than lasers, the results from
missile fire are computed after everything else(?). But since each space
combat turn is a whole half an hour, and since missiles are assumed to
accelerate at speeds that would turn any pilot into organic goo, they
hit the same turn as they're launched... just like in Classic- and
Mega-Traveller, before GDW put themselves out of business by publishing
a game system so thoroughly researched, elegant, and realistic that
nobody outside of a few math geeks from MIT understood it.'

(I hope I didn't piss him off with that. I was mad when I wrote it,
because I had just spent all day designing a Conflict-class destroyer
escort, the pride and backbone of the Arcadian aerospace fleet=85. And I
had to junk it because the bays didn't have enough MFD's, which isn't
explained in the rules; and because even if I added extra MFD's I had
odd missiles left over from every salvo, which just plain annoyed me.
None of which is his fault=85 but if some dingbat at an Imperial shipyard
built a weapons system that could only use half the missiles it shot =96
which is what FF&S currently forces you to do with standard-sized
missile launchers -- they would keelhaul him around the hull of his own
ship without benefit of a vacc suit).

Those are just brief examples, but I'm sure you get my drift.
User-friendly and detailed are not mutually exclusive. Simple does not
mean dumb. For the up-&-coming Naval Architect's Handbook, we need to be
looking for little things that we can lump together into big things,
which in turn will form the guts of the updated SSDS. This will enable
us to:

1) Maintain compatibility with SSDS & QSDS (once they're reconciled with
each other), and all of the ships designed with the (corrected) current
version of each,

2) Maintain compatibility with all your pet FF&S designs, including all
those high-G missiles and other weird thingies,

3) Keep the faith with the original hard-SF feel of the game, and

4) Enable average functional adults and bright kids with regular (not
scientific!) calculators to spawn a new generation of gearheads that
will make T4 live and breath and jump and become a viable long-term
entity. I dunno about you, but I don't want to spend another $200 on
books and then wind up the RPG equivalent of an Amiga owner. I felt that
way before, when GDW went under. Not again, thanks.

To insist that SSDS is acceptable as an intermediate level of complexity
and to leave NAH to the hard-core gearheads like yourselves is simply
not acceptable. SSDS is okay, but it is still only screwdriver assembly
of somebody else's pre-generated components. To actually design
something new, you need FF&S, or something like it. And the bugger
simply does not need to be as complicated as it is. It doesn't. The
sonofabitch was doomed as soon as it came off the presses. To militantly
insist otherwise will doom Imperium Games to the same slow death by
strangulation as doomed its predecessor.

I am not preaching compromise, but improvement. I'm trying not just to
complain. I'm trying to be specific as possible. But the general tenor
of the discussions in this digest seems to hover in a cloud of
high-octane, cutting-edge unreality. If you want to help make T4 a
success, you need to shake that off, and bend your really amazing wealth
of gaming experience and brain power to creating a design system for the
other 99% of the human race.

And no. I'm not being sarcastic.

Long Live The Imperium!

- -- Jay Stranahan,
Redneck Tech Writer At Large

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #832
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 12 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 833



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[Fwd: Help]
Controlled (Was Re: Calling Out the Ten)
Re: Lots of complaints.
WTB: 15mm Traveller Figures
Re: Lots of complaints
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Problems finding IG products at FLGS's
Mac drawing spftware
Vilani & Long Pig...
There's gold in that there infrastructure...(longish)
Re: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #832
Re: Lots of complaints.
Re: Problems finding IG products at FLGS's
Re: Vilani & Long Pig...
Re: Vilani & Long Pig...
Re: Melee weapons
Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss
Re: There's gold in that there infrastructure...(longish)
Imperial Funding-Other Than Taxes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:10:45 -0800
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: [Fwd: Help]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- --------------7D4576771B78
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My apologies I sent the wrong mail to the list.
This is the one that should have been sent.
Thanks
Dave

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Message-ID: <32D8423F.DC2@intergate.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 17:45:35 -0800
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Reply-To: strebe@intergate.bc.ca
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Trav <Traveller@MPGN.com>
CC: Pat <farquar@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Help
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I am in need of information regarding mercenary costs.
My group has informed me they want to hire a Battalion size
merc. group of aprox. TL 7-9. I have no idea what sort of
unit composition or costing I should use. Is there any reference's
on the net that could help me? Oh yes I found the "A Twist of Fate "
scenario at "Goerans " site but this refers to Striker II which I
don't have avaliable.
Thanks in advance
Dave
" no Gerry you can't have a TL12 grav tank batt with orbital bombardment
capability's to beat up TL4 musketters "


- --------------7D4576771B78--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 11:12:39 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Controlled (Was Re: Calling Out the Ten)

On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, David Smart wrote:

> alien and not just humans in a monster suit. The writeup on the
> Controlled was especially disturbing (in a cool kind of way) because
> I can see the reasoning for actions taken by the race and the
> Imperium (talk about the law of the jungle). Makes me kinda wonder
> just how far the Imperium really will go when facing "a clear and
> present danger." Any member of the Controlled would make one
> incredible subversion weapon...any confusion now as to how the
> Imperium moved so far, so fast?

Although the essay is unclear at times, the History section mentions that 
the Imperium that did those things to the Controlled was the First 
Imperium.  At this point (Year 0 of the Third Imperium), just about 
everyone accepts the Official History as handed down through the ages, 
except for the Controlled themselves, who don't accept it yet who also 
don't know what really happened. 

It may very well be that the government of the Third Imprium itself 
doesn't know the real story...yet.  Might make a good adventure to have 
the adventurers uncover old First Imperium records that state what really 
happened.  Then all sorts of interesting ethical questions arise. =)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:14:30 +0001
From: "Nick Meredith" <nickm@discover.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints.

Don't expect too much positive feed back from Britain yet. It's only 
a few weeks since I managed to find Starships over here. As for the 
decent products, I would expect to see them in about 2-3 weeks.

To the gent from Louisiana who compained that they get things last. I 
bet you don't - Europe is still way slower.
- -- 
Cheers
Nick Meredith - nickm@discover.co.uk - Coventry, UK

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 12:17:03 -0500
From: Jon & Beth Woodland <71532.50@compuserve.com>
Subject: WTB: 15mm Traveller Figures

Does anyone out there have any of the Martian Metals 15mm Traveller figures
from the early '80s for sale?  Or do you know of any used gaming supply
outlets that have any?  I'm interested in packaged OR loose figs. and
vehicles.  I also may have some classic Traveller books to trade for them
if interested.

Also, is the xboat mailing list still in existence?  I'm new to the list,
and my xboat posts keep comming back with "user unknown".

Jon Woodland
71532.50ompuserve.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 11:19:52 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints

On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> I understand that the BITS/CORE people had quite a bit of influence on these
> products.. this is a *good thing*

Yup.  IG recognized that the best people to turn to for the background 
are those most familiar with the previously-published materials.  Les 
Smith is a great game designer, there is no doubt.  But if he had been
required to go back and read all the previously-published history, then 
he'd still be working on it in January of '97. [G]  They did the right 
thing in getting some help on that aspect.


> >2)  Graphic Design.  As I reported a few weeks ago, Marc Miller is in 
> >discussion with IG to bring on a professional graphic designer. 
> 
> This should be an IG priority.. I don't mind Foss art on the covers, but the
> quality of layout and interior art should be addressed now that editing and
> distribution are improving. 

Right.  One thing at a time. :)  Maybe by the time Emperor's Arsenal 
comes out we'll see some nice changes.  


> NO!  I loved Aliens, I got ideas from every entry; and CSC had some fun
> stuff and good rules.. haven't had time to use the VDS yet, so I can't
> comment on that.

Aliens:  As Tim Brown said to me once, "When I get cut, I bleed black and 
red."  The guy's been involved with Traveller from way back.  And he can 
write like the dickens. :)

CSC:  It's Greg Porter.  'Nuff said. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 11:25:43 -0600
From: Ernest N Rowland <erowland@ionet.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:20:01 -0800
> From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>

> I'm sorry, folks, but I need to get something off my chest.
> If it won't get me thrown out of the temple, I'd like to question -- strongly
<snip,snip,snip>

As someone who owns the World's Greatest Scientific/Programmable Calculator
(HP-48GX) (and otherwise completely matches your profile) and has requested
that there be _more_ formulas in the design system, I must say that I greatly
enjoyed your post and mostly agree with what you have to say.  This has to be
the best-written criticism of a game system that I have read in a long time!

I hope someone at IG sees this post - and IMHO those who are fond of criticism 
should take a few pointers from how this was written.

The main reason that I argue for formulas, rather than huge tables (or perhaps
as a supplement to the tables, so both are present), is that it is much easier
for me to see if the system is consistent and works well by seeing the
underlying _why_ of it all.

A complex system that attempts to model a hard-SF "reality" is great, but
additional complexity also makes it that much harder to see if the whole thing
actually makes any sense!  You can get lost in the details if there are too
many.

You argue for ease-of-use, and that was what I was arguing for also - just 
from different perspectives.  For me, a few pages of well-defined formulas and 
an algorithm to follow when using those formulas allows me to do everything I 
want with a vehicle/component/whatever design system.  I can then happily 
analyze and optimize to my heart's content, oblivious to the outside world, 
for hours and hours and . . . ahem.

I think that for most gamers (including me), the ideal design system would 
consist of the following things:

   1  A clear, well-written procedure to follow during the design process 
      that makes no assumptions about prior systems (CT,MT,FF&S, etc).

   2  Well-laid-out, clearly labeled tables for those parts of the design that 
      are most important to get the job done.  As you said, any power or 
      computer requirements for a sub-system should be included in that 
      subsystem, not handled separately unless there is good reason to do so.

   3  Reasons; explanations; the why of it all.  This is something I 
      constantly stress to my fellow software engineers in their documentation 
      efforts - Why something was done the way it was is _the_most_important_ 
      item to record for posterity.

   4  The bullshitium aspects - this is what adds the versimilitude to the 
      game and makes it role-playing rather than an optimization problem (as 
      enjoyable as those might be...).  The SOM was a great example of this.

   5  If formulas are included (as an adjunct to the easy-to-use tables), then 
      PLEASE typeset them as formulas, not as ordinary text!  Just look at any 
      math or physics textbook for ideas.  This was a big problem with FF&S.

   6  Examples; Examples; Examples.  Not just a list of designed vehicles (and 
      _please_ use the same system that is being documented!),  but at least 
      _two_ step-by-step designs covering all of the design sequence.  Well 
      done examples work miracles when it comes to clarifying things (as I 
      learned while teaching two semesters of College Algebra).
      Please carefully proofread everything.  Nothing is more frustrating than 
      trying to understand an example that has bugs in it - "Am I just stupid, 
      or does this not make any sense?"  Frustration is a sure way to lose 
      customers.

Perhaps IG should consider offering you an editorial job!

8-)
Ernest N Rowland
erowland@ionet.net
"The flag is solid red, except where a thin ring-shaped hole has been cut
out of it, through which one can see the sky."-GEB:EGB

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:31:14 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

On Sun, 12 Jan 1997 07:46:08 -0800, you wrote:

[too much to quote]

Hear hear.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 11:35:49 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Problems finding IG products at FLGS's

Hi,

I'm a big supporter of purchasing gaming products locally.  I only buy 
stuff online if I have to (ie, out-of-print stuff and whatnot).  But if 
you're in a situation where you're unable to buy it local, you might want 
to at least consider buying online.  Once IG gets their web site set up 
for online ordering, give 'em a try again.

I've also had great success ordering from Dragon's Trove 
(http://www.dragontrove.com) and Quincey Koziol's Titan Games 
(http://www.titan-games.com).  You might want to give the owners of 
either of those sites an email and ask how to order, and how quickly they 
can get the stuff to you.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:02:14 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Mac drawing spftware

John Kovalic asked:

>
>PS. Any other Mac artists out there? I'm looking for a good layout program
>that has easy-to-use grid capabilities.


        IMHO, BluePrint just plain rocks the free nation...

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick D. Elliott... rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca              |
|                        elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca           |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| "...an imperfect plan implemented immediately and violently |
| will always succeed better than a perfect plan."            |
|                        -Gen. George S. Patton.              |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:02:17 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Vilani & Long Pig...

        Can't recall whether I brought this up before my job blew my Xmas
break to hell, but something has occurred to me:

        After the Ancients abandoned them, the Vilani basically found
themselves living in an envronment where much of the life was not ideal for
supporting Terran-based life, and where in fact some of the stuff that was
edible required considerable processing to make it so.

        Wouldn't this mean, therefore, that one of the best sources of
protein loose on Vland would be... other Vilani?  I'd suspect that a lot of
early Vilani cuisine would have consisted of
Those-jerks-from-the-next-valley-over stew...

        Canon?  Non-canon?  am I out to lunch?

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick D. Elliott... rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca              |
|                        elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca           |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| "...an imperfect plan implemented immediately and violently |
| will always succeed better than a perfect plan."            |
|                        -Gen. George S. Patton.              |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:02:21 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: There's gold in that there infrastructure...(longish)

Andy Lilly wrote:

>
>In the Milieu 0 book you'll find that the Imperium has a very fixed idea of
>how planets should be allowed to develop technologically. And yes, it's all
>to do with controlling trade, with the intention both of long term profits
>and long term _dependence_ upon the Imperium. There are also obvious points
>about trading high tech weapons (for example) to low tech worlds who cannot
>(not having the appropriate history) truly comprehend the usage of such
>without the possibility that they will annhiliate themselves and perhaps
>anyone near them!


        My Christmas vacation was rudely interrupted on the 23rd by a phone
call from my boss; as a result I've been working my butt off, am jetlagged
to hell, and missed the first week of classes.  However, there was a
payoff.  I wound up doing a little research on infrastructure project
financing in Asia.  As most of you are probably aware, the upper limits on
economic growth in many Asian countries are imposed by their
infrastructure; insufficient road networks, lack of public transport
systems, insufficient power generation capability, minimal airport
facilities, port facilities, water & sewage facilities, etc...  China is in
need of *all* of the above on a massive scale.

        Many of these countries lack the capital needed to finance these
sorts of projects, which puts them in sort of a bind.  OTOH, put a decent
road & transit system into Bangkok, and the place would boom.  One of the
reasons the Phillipines were lagging behind in terms of growth was
brownouts; your businesses can't compete with Japan or Hong Kong if they
haven't got power 7 hours a day.  So, the solution is to look for foreign
investment.

<I'm sure that you can all see where this is going>

        What usually happens is that you get large companies from the
developed world doing the following:

1) setting up some sort of subsidiary or joint venture and doing some
creative legal and/or accounting juggling to limit liability to that sub.

2) getting financing from a variety of sources.  So far, in Asia they seem
to be relying mostly on borrowing from large financial institutions.

3) *kicker alert* getting concessions from the local government; in return
for building the infrastructure, the company behind the project typically
gets to simply own and operate it for a long period of time, like, say over
20 years.  This is typically known as a BOOT (Build, Own, Operate,
Transfer) deal.  You go in, you build your highway or your power plant, and
you make your money from the tolls and bills... and twenty years later, if
your projections weren't toally out of whack, you walk away with a nice
healthy profit, and the local government inherits the road and the benefits
of twenty years of having the highway operated for them no-charge plus its
economic benefit.


        Of course, there are risks.  Some of these countries are not
terribly stable (one deal I read about had to be negotiated with 5
successive governments in a short period of time).  Capacity uptake may not
grow as planned.  They're huge and complex, and regulatory regimes may a)
be suffocating and protectionist or b) completely non-existent, both of
which can spell big trouble.  All sorts of things can go wrong...  For the
governments involved, planned obsolescence is probably going to be a major
problem.  And of course, these sorts of deals seem to be becoming very
trendy, with the result that some are going to go spectacularly blooie.

        The implications for Milieu 0 of all this are so painfully obvious
they don't need mentioning.  The real money to be made in the expanding
early Third Imperium won't be in selling fusion guns to local dictators
(peanuts, really), or even selling Fusion+ units to everybody, but rather
in identifying planets where the conditions are ripe for a growth boom.
Then you go to local governments at about TL4 and up, and pitch them a deal
whereby your megacorp will build them a spaceport, fusion plants, a power
grid, a roadgrid system, a telecom system, hospitals, and water & sewage
systems at no cost to the government... and all you get are user fee
concessions for the next century.  Everybody involved wins: the planet
benefits from the infrastructure and massive sustained economic growth, and
you & your megacorp make insane amounts of money, as you're running the
power company, the phone company, the water company, the health system, the
toll roads, etc, etc, etc <excuse me where I go do a Mr. Burns impression>.


        Cleon wins, too: the planet of course becomes not only dependent
upon the Imperium, but probably falls under its cultural influence as the
locals start buying up the Imperial equivalent of blue jeans, Scotch,
BMW's, and the like...

        So basically, I see the Imperial technology export policy as being
highly infrastructure-oriented.  The sort of high-tech products that would
see the most trade are power systems, transport, communications and the
like...  guns would be way down on the list, if nothing else because in the
long term there's nowhere near as much money to be made as there is in
selling butter churns.

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick D. Elliott... rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca              |
|                        elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca           |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| "...an imperfect plan implemented immediately and violently |
| will always succeed better than a perfect plan."            |
|                        -Gen. George S. Patton.              |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:02:27 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)

Garry Ward wrote:

>
>This is what I like most about Traveller; and what makes Traveller the most
>unique of SF RPG games. The ease with which we can merge from our fictional
>universe into the real one.  Out of the original group of gamers I lead thru
>CT, one was in jr high, doing moderately well in school, but not focused on
>a career orientation, till he got hooked on the concept of ship and
>equipment designs. Last I heard of him some years back he was on the way to
>a career in aeronautical engineering. Let's see if TSR or Games Workshop can
>claim that kind of motivational effect for their games.
>
>Garry


        Let's just hope that White Wolf *doesn't* have the same effect on
its players... >:)=

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick D. Elliott... rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca              |
|                        elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca           |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| "...an imperfect plan implemented immediately and violently |
| will always succeed better than a perfect plan."            |
|                        -Gen. George S. Patton.              |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 12:00:01 -0600 (CST)
From: Kevin Walsh <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #832

I liked the CSC, overall it was very good. the price/value was my only
disapointment.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:02:41 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints.

>To the gent from Louisiana who compained that they get things last. I 
>bet you don't - Europe is still way slower.

I'd argue Canada, at least Oakville, is the last to get products.  Only T4
product around here is the rulebook, and that didn't arrive till October
anyway.  I stil have yet to even see Starships, Aliens, CSC, or JTAS

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:02:46 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Problems finding IG products at FLGS's

>I've also had great success ordering from Dragon's Trove 
>(http://www.dragontrove.com) and Quincey Koziol's Titan Games 
>(http://www.titan-games.com).  You might want to give the owners of 
>either of those sites an email and ask how to order, and how quickly they 
>can get the stuff to you.

A quick note, I'd vouch for Quincy Koziol as a trusted online seller as
well, as his prices are quite reasonalbe, even for out of print stuff, plus,
he gives a 30% off retail price for new items.

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:15:17 -0500
From: russcm@zoomnet.net (Christopher M. Russell)
Subject: Re: Vilani & Long Pig...

>        After the Ancients abandoned them, the Vilani basically found
>themselves living in an envronment where much of the life was not ideal for
>supporting Terran-based life, and where in fact some of the stuff that was
>edible required considerable processing to make it so.
>
>        Wouldn't this mean, therefore, that one of the best sources of
>protein loose on Vland would be... other Vilani?  I'd suspect that a lot of
>early Vilani cuisine would have consisted of
>Those-jerks-from-the-next-valley-over stew...
>
>        Canon?  Non-canon?  am I out to lunch?
>
Bit gruesome, but something to think about.

I had assumed that some of them were proficient in the types of processes
that the ancients used to make the food for the humans, thereby leading to
the supply and demand structure that lead to the Megacorp that did the food
processing (name escapes me at the moment).

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 11:17:57 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vilani & Long Pig...

On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>         After the Ancients abandoned them, the Vilani basically found
> themselves living in an envronment where much of the life was not ideal for
> supporting Terran-based life, and where in fact some of the stuff that was
> edible required considerable processing to make it so.
> 
>         Wouldn't this mean, therefore, that one of the best sources of
> protein loose on Vland would be... other Vilani?  I'd suspect that a lot of
> early Vilani cuisine would have consisted of
> Those-jerks-from-the-next-valley-over stew...

	Hmmmm...Logical, as the pointy eared one would say. The problem
with this is you start to transmit and concentrate things like 'mad vilani
disease'; things like BSE and Kreutzfeld-Jakobs disease are transmitted
that way. But perhaps this was one of the functions of the
Shugilli...preparing the Other other white meat to minimize this threat.

It's hard to say. As far as we know, any case of regularly practiced
cannibalism in humans has been restricted to strictly ritual forms, Alferd
Packer and the odd soccer team aside. However, there are a number of
cannabalistic species, that under certain conditions gladly eat each
other. There is a species of (toad or frog...I don't remember which) which
is the major predator on itself.

Hmmm...maybe the ancients dragged along Fava beans, too ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 12:46:57 -0600
From: "J.D. Burdick" <twolf@tfs.net>
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

At 09:25 AM 1/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
> on Jan 11 marz@hotstar.net (Mused)
>> Melee weapons are useless in a 
>>modern war, and are used as weapons only if you cannot get a real one (ie a
>>gun)
>>The only melee weapons development is for crowd control and useless consists
>>of better 
>>clubs, riot gases and plexiglas shields

Not true.  The US Army is doing extensive research on melee weapons and
non-leathal weapons due to the increased missions in Stability and Peace
Support Operations.  Things like stun batons, immobilizing spray, and
capture foam are to provide troops with alternative to killing a local national.


At tech level 12 what sort of new melee weapons might be available.  Blur is
a great example.  It cause you to drop your weapon, or temporarily blinds
your opponent.  What about melee weapons will tranq abilities??  Or maybe a
sword that deflects laser blast back at your opponent??  The possibilities
for melee weapons are, like everything else in Traveller, only limited by
your imagination.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 97 19:17 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss

In-Reply-To: <v01530500aefc1d30e183@[206.190.30.197]>

> Courtney broght him in for two reasons:
> 
> 1) He has a lot of work we could purchase for second rights, and
> 2) His name is famous in Hollywood, which would help open doors for a
> Traveller movie.
> 
> Do I like all of the plates Corney picked? Hell No! But he was financing
> the project and I did not feel like telling him what will sell to the big
> movie companies.

Fairy nuff. It was all based on economics - can't get much more 
Travelleresque than that! :-)

> Do I think Foss is a great artist? You bet your ass!

No arguments there.

> Now for those of you who think FOSS can't do Traveller-like pictures, boy
> are you in for a surprise when you see the cover for Pocket Empires!  An
> original Foss made for TRAVELLER.

Can't wait to see it.

> Overall, a great Traveller feel, and to all of you who don't like Fosses
> old stuff...
> nana nana boo boo, stick your head in poo poo.-)

:-)

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:21:34 -0600
From: "J.D. Burdick" <twolf@tfs.net>
Subject: Re: There's gold in that there infrastructure...(longish)

At 01:02 PM 1/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>        The implications for Milieu 0 of all this are so painfully obvious
>they don't need mentioning.  The real money to be made in the expanding
>early Third Imperium won't be in selling fusion guns to local dictators
>(peanuts, really), or even selling Fusion+ units to everybody, but rather
>in identifying planets where the conditions are ripe for a growth boom.
>Then you go to local governments at about TL4 and up, and pitch them a deal
>whereby your megacorp will build them a spaceport, fusion plants, a power
>grid, a roadgrid system, a telecom system, hospitals, and water & sewage
>systems at no cost to the government... and all you get are user fee
>concessions for the next century.  Everybody involved wins: the planet
>benefits from the infrastructure and massive sustained economic growth, and
>you & your megacorp make insane amounts of money, as you're running the
>power company, the phone company, the water company, the health system, the
>toll roads, etc, etc, etc <excuse me where I go do a Mr. Burns impression>.
>
Excellent idea for a campaign.  Thanks.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:49:55 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Imperial Funding-Other Than Taxes

There has been a lot of speculation in the past on how the Imperium
manages to finance itself-such a massive entity.  By the time of the
Rebellion some folks have to be wondering if taxes really could even
support the incredible expenditures.  Or tariffs...or anything...

The Imperium is NOT the United States, by a long shot.  It controls not
only the starlanes, but the unclaimed bodies in a vast number of
systems.  Imperial law may not extend to the surface of the governed
worlds, but it does cover the other 99.9% of the system bodies too
useless for the locals.  This is a system by system thing, of course.

In short, the Imperium OWNS those rocks, gas giants, comets, monopoles
and other infinite resources.  Unlike the US Forest Service, it DOESN'T
charge megacorps a pittance to utiize them.  They pay-A LOT.  But the
profit THEY make is even higher.  

Think of it-most systems will have vast, exploitable resources just
waiting for use, much cheaper than jumping ten thousand tons of ore from
nearby Wherever.  To be a member of the Imperium and enjoy complete
sovreignty, you simply sign this little document agreeing to cede any
claims you have on other worlds to "big daddy." 

The assumption of Traveller is that the Imperium controls the space
between the worlds, if not the worlds themselves.  What this means,
besides the typical control of trade, is that they own 99.9% of its
resources-and sells them.  NOW THAT IS POWER.

Deadeye

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #833
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 12 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 834



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Traveller CD
Re: Traveller CD
ElectroStatic Blade
HAPPY WITH IG
Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss
Re: Starships is broken, too!
Re: Traveller Art and San Antonio Traveller
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: What is 'Travelleresque'?
Re: Calling Out the Ten
Re: Calling Out the Ten
Re: Calling Out the Ten
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: Lots of complaints.
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX...not exactly
Re: Lots of complaints.
JTAS #25
Re: Melee weapons
Complexity [Long]
Re: Traveller CD

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 12:55:29 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Traveller CD

>3.	CD ROM PROJECT
>	We've been working with IG on a project to bring the ENTIRE 
>	Traveller rules set out on CD ROM.  IG is now trying to gauge
>	interest in this project.  Please let them  know what your
>	thoughts are on this potential product.

	I would be very interested in such a product IFF*

	It contains more than just the T4 stuff--in other words, _all_ (or most)
of the historical material
	- Classic Traveller Rules
	- Classic Traveller Adventures
	- Classic Traveller Supplements
	- All JTAS articles from issue 1
	- Challenge material related to Traveller
	- MegaTraveller rules, supplements, adventures
	- TNE rules, supplements, adventures
	- as much third-party material as can be obtained

		AND

	It's in a useable format. To me useable means
	- Should be able to read it without requiring custom software. HTML might
be a good start for the text
	- MUST BE ABLE TO EDIT IT! I want to edit things for my own particular
flavor. Something like PDF is therefore out, because it's quite frustrating
to try and get it into something I can open with my word processor/text
editor and graphic tools.
	- Reasonably well structured.

*IFF=If and Only If.

	As a contribution, I have somewhere most of the Red Zone articles from
JTAS already typed in (downloaded from the GEnie forum).

	You also might want to consider seeing if some of us who have web sites
would be willing to allow portions of the material on our sites be included
on the CD-ROM. Personally, I would (with the original author's permission).

- -- Dave Golden                         PGP Public Key available --
   goldendj@usa.net   http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:12:25 -0600
From: "J.D. Burdick" <twolf@tfs.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD

At 12:55 PM 1/12/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>3.	CD ROM PROJECT
>>	We've been working with IG on a project to bring the ENTIRE 
>>	Traveller rules set out on CD ROM.  IG is now trying to gauge
>>	interest in this project.  Please let them  know what your
>>	thoughts are on this potential product.
>
I would be very interested in a reference CD of the old Traveller Material.
It would be nice to be able to copy and paste from it into a document and to
be able to conduct searches of the material (ie, Regina, etc).  As a referee
it would be a great resource for gaming.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 12:46:58 -0800
From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Subject: ElectroStatic Blade

Well I did it.  I went ahead and attempted to develope a better melee 
weapon.  

It consists of an Crystal Iron Blade (equivelent volume to a foil), a 
series of .01 MW Batteries in Parallel Connection, A homopolar 
Generator, and an EletroStatic Field Generator.  If anyone is interested 
in exact numbers I can provide them (made in FFS).  

It weighes between 2.5 and 3 kg. And has component volume of 1.8 liters 
(this doesn't include the blade).  The cost is about 5600Cr and is a 
TL15 item.  It has enough power in the battery for 18 full turns of use 
(Turns based on 6 second rounds).  (AND YES THE BODY WAS HEAVILY 
RUGGIDIZED FOR MELEE USE).  

Any ideas on how to calculate damage?

At a 85% efficiency (TL15 Energy Conversion) it rated at ~.0085 MW
Now if we go with Laser Damage which is 50*(E^.5) it can do 4D damage 
when powered up and (1D = Foil) or (2D=equivelant broadsword weight)  
when powered down.  

(I'd Greatly Appreciate Feedback)

Brad Urwiller
ravyn@ptw.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 12:56:03 -0800
From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Subject: HAPPY WITH IG

I must agree to an extent with Joe Walsh.

As I said in my earlier Email to the list I beleive that IG should be 
commended.  What project ever went perfectly.  The current position of 
IG I think is quite good compared to what COULD have happened.  Me I'm 
just happy Traveller is still alive.  The goal behind IG is one we all 
embrace.  Constructive Criticism is alway's good.  It's how we grow but 
too much all at once can just be RANTING.  Maybe it might be a good idea 
if we could give IG some time to reply to our collective voices.  { I 
hate to be critical but the Mailing list is not the Center of the 
universe.  IG has many more things to consider than just our wants.  
Although I must say that it wouldn't be a wise idea to just ignore the 
list :)}

Thanks,
Brad Urwiller
ravyn@ptw.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:08:55 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ken Whitman - About Foss

> about this movie feldercarb

Feldercarb!  Ahh, a Battlestar Galactica fan!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:08:55 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Starships is broken, too!

I beleive that's 4 out of 10!

The 10 march onward.

Kenneth.
(or you could call us the 20 thumbs)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:08:56 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Art and San Antonio Traveller

> My only question is this-why does the 20 year learning curve on starship
> design, deckplan layout and art in general steer such a wobbly course? 
> When one source produces an excellent design, such as the plans in
> Arrival Vengeance, why do the follow on developers not mandate that
> quality be continued?  What good are deckplans and art that are nearly
> useless in describing the feel of the universe?

This is an exceptional couple of statements.  We are all scratching 
our heads at this--especially with the promise by Marc Miller in the 
Main Book that T4 will be backed up by 20 years of role playing 
experience.

scratch scratch

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:08:56 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

But isn't FF&S broken, David?

I mean, why are the weights in the TNE equipment guide so heavy.  
Like the power packs for the lasers.  They cannot be effective 
weapons if they were that heavy.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:08:56 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

Shit.  Now, that's one hell of a post.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:08:57 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: What is 'Travelleresque'?

> > Sounds like we want a commercially successful artist with a deep
> > understanding of engineering concepts and with experience
> > generating Traveller designs.
> 
> I'd settle for just a deep understanding of engineering concepts.  Someone
> who knows on a gut level that you don't stick massive objects out on
> slender pylons without a damn good reason, that you don't put heavy
> aerodynamically meaningless fins on a design without a damn good reason,
> and so forth.


Craig!  Very well stated, and good points all.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:08:57 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Calling Out the Ten

> Hear, hear! Thanks for getting me off my duff. IG is definitely made
> improvements. I *really* like Aliens Archive because the aliens *are*
> alien and not just humans in a monster suit.

OK, I was 1, Joe Walsh was 2, and you are 3.  Are there seven more of 
us out there who think IG is starting to product some good products?

 
> Aside from the errata, CSC is a welcome addition to my collection.

Me too.


> The rules for dealing with temperature are great, IMO; does the
> job without being complicated. 

The same goes for the vacuum exposure rules.  I think that they are a 
little liberal, but pretty close to the info on the NASA page (I 
think you put me on to that page).  This is the first time in 
Traveller history, that I know of (and I've got A LOT of Traveller 
stuff), that official rules have been given for vacuum exposure.

This kind of stuff makes me excited.


 And after playing Traveller 
since
> 1980, it's nice to finally have something describing the effects
> of vacuum on the human body.

Oh, I guess I should have read your whole post before I responded!

 
> But the piece de resistance was JTAS. I love the idea of having
> a publication dedicated solely to Traveller. 

Yes.  I was dark hearted when Challenge incorporated other games.  I 
took one subscription before dropping it because it did not contain 
enough Traveller material.

 The 100 Cargos by
> Jo Grant (congrats, Jo!) and the short stories help add to the
> background atmosphere of the game and not just for newbies.

ditto here.

 
> Two thumbs (and my hopes) up for IG!

Make that 6 thumbs up.  Two from me, two from Joe, two from you.

Ahh, I guess that means we are looking for 14 more thumbs!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:08:58 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Calling Out the Ten

> So? I've only gotten CSC, but its adequate at best. Certainly nothing
> spectacular. And at that price, I debated for a LONG time to justify
> buying it. 

Yes, the book is a bit pricey, but the CSC is a great book of 
equipment and rules.  Name some other game equipment books you really 
liked and compare them to CSC.  I'd like to see where you are coming 
from.


> Huh? The art in TNE is WAY more provocative than any of that T4 stuff.
> I've often found myself staring at the pictures in the various TNE books
> and just picturing that scene in my mind.

You've got to be kidding me!  I've got just about all of the TNE 
stuff, and the art was cartooney crap.  The people did not look real, 
there was kiddie "controls" on the pages of the equipment guide, and 
the covers to all of the major books was dumb.

What TNE pictures are you talking about?  I want to look at the same 
ones you did.

  
> Ugh! Those B&W stuff were downright ugly. No wonder Foss did so many B&W
> illustrations, they were just prelim. sketches.

They look a lot like the sketches in some of the Battletech equipment 
books.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:08:54 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Calling Out the Ten

This was an incomplete thought that I had written, and I sent it by 
mistake.  If you are confused by the abrupt end to my post, this is 
why.

But the thought is still there.  Maybe not enough people have bought 
the three new supplements yet.  I don't know.  But,  I do think IG 
deserves a pat on the back.

What I do know is that these three new books are great!  I want to 
see more stuff like this.

Heck yeah, there is room for improvement.  There always is.  

Let me complete my rundown of the three books that was aborted in my 
first post.



The CSC.
The look of the book:  I do like the black motif with red border that 
all of the T4 books are having.  And, the pic on the cover of the CSC 
is good as well.  After the Starships disaster, many people wanted 
less illos, but I like a lot of illos.  I like to see what the 
equipment looks like.  The thing is I like good illos, and I've got 
to say that the Foss pics are getting better.  They are still not as 
good as they could be, but I like them.



Content:  Good stuff!  I like the info, and I really like the rules 
interspersed throughout the book.  I like the approach taken, and I 
like how it was all written.  There is all kinds of stuff in the book 
that I am sure that I will use for years.



The Negatives:  Well, I think the CSC has very few.  One little 
nit-picky thing is that I'd improve the interior illos and increase 
their quanity, but I don't want this little comment to be compared 
with the horrible quality of the illos in Starships.  

The biggest problem that I can see is that, as has already been 
mentioned on the TML, the price is way too much.  I paid $22.50 for 
the book.  I compared this with several same size supplements of the 
Star Wars game (a game which I think is very good), and they ran 
between $15 and $18.  



Final Words on CSC:  The book is a wonderful supplement albeit at a 
premium price.



Aliens Archive.
The look of the book:  Again, nice book!  I don't mind the cover pics 
here either--maybe Ken Whitman will be right about the original Foss 
piece coming out.  Although I think that it is strange to feature the 
skeletal drawings as the only picture about each race on the first 
page the race is listed, I do like having them in the book.  I think 
another pic of the specific alien, with skin on it, would be more 
appropriate.

And, I really, really, like the center pics of the aliens.  IG, you 
need to fire Foss and hire whoever did these (Ashe Marler or 
Wildstorm Productions) full time for all of your illos.  This stuff 
is great, exciting, and exactly what I've been looking to see.



Content:  I haven't read the whole book, but of what I've read, I 
like it.  Good info.  These are not as indepth as some of the stuff 
DGP used to do (which is what I was expecting), but that is OK.  
There is more than one way to skin a goat.  The AA is full of great 
info that I will use in my game.

One thing that I'm torn on is the Aliens not being specifically 
placed in the Imperium.

Let's look at the hands.  On one hand, I'm playing in the 1100's, so 
I should be ecstatic about transplantable aliens.  I can put the home 
world for these guys any where I want relevant to my campaign.  I 
like this

OTOH, I don't like this.  One of the very attractive things about 
Traveller is its very detailed and specific background.  I feel that 
having transplantable aliens is somehow making it less specific.  
Part of me wants to know which part of space these guys are from.  I 
almost prefer that this be detailed eventhough the aliens book is 
more useful to me the way it is.

I'm at a stalemate on this one, and therefore, for now, I have not 
opinion as to whether this should be changed or not.



The Negatives:  The news we heard about the print being too big is 
true.  It does look like they were trying to fill pages with what 
they had.  This would not have been so bad if the book wasn't $22.50. 
 Again, there are much cheaper books out there for other companies of 
the same quality.  Why can't IG produce a book that is more in line 
with this price range.  (Yeah, I know.  I'm the guy who wrote all of 
that stuff about why IG's prices might be the way they are, but it is 
still frustrating as a consumer.)

And, I would like to see more pics by whoever did (it is not clear 
from the credits) did the alien illos.  It would be nice to see more 
aliens in action.  As it stands, we have one pic of them, one 
skeletal pic, and one conseption pic.  Give us more.



Final words on AA:  Nice book, great aliens, but at a premium price 
and large print version for the old.



JTAS.
The look of the book:  Ahh, the cover is not so hot.  It looks 
cheap.  Inside, it depends on your reference.  If you are used to the 
old JTAS and Challange, then it is right along those lines.  Nice 
continuation.

But if you want something to blow your socks off, like say, the Star 
Wars Adventure Journal, then the JTAS is a pale comparison.



Content:  What matters most is the content, and I am very pleased 
with what was presented in JTAS.  It has a good mix of good, detailed 
adventures, additional game rules, and even fiction.  I'd say for a 
first try, good job!



The Negatives:  This is 1997.  There should be no reason we aren't 
getting a blow your socks off product.  I refer again to the Star 
Wars Adventure Journal.  Look at one of those, will ya?  It's got 
great art, great design, great adventures, great fiction--all in all 
it is an exciting game aid.  

The JTAS is a good Traveller magazine, but I want to be blown away.  
I want to be as excited about the JTAS coming out as I am the Star 
Wars Journal.



Final words on JTAS:  It is a good solid mag, and I'll keep buying.  
There is room for improvement, but even if it stays as is, it will be 
a good buy.  I recommend it.



As a business owner, my dad used to say that if the customers are not 
saying anything, then you are keeping them relatively happy.  It's 
when they start bitching that you've got to worry.  They will 
rarely go to great lengths to tell you that you are doing a good job, 
but they will walk barefoot through fire to tell you that you aren't.

This is what I was trying to say in my abortive first post.  It does 
take 10 happy customers to make up for one unhappy one.  It's 
exponential.

Well, I think IG has done a fantastic job on these products, and I 
want them to know that.

I'm taking the first step.  I'll be the first of the 10.

Who will follow?

Kenneth.



  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:25:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Led Mirage <lmirage@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

You must be kidding. FF&S too complex? Its NOT detailed enough. Anything
less detailed than FF&S belongs to Star Wars RPG, not Traveller. Nobody
forces you to go FF&S. If you don't like it, then why not just stick with
that Lego system in T4?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:39:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Led Mirage <lmirage@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints.

On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Peter J. Miller wrote:

> I'd argue Canada, at least Oakville, is the last to get products.  Only T4
> product around here is the rulebook, and that didn't arrive till October
> anyway.  I stil have yet to even see Starships, Aliens, CSC, or JTAS

Perhaps you should make track to TORONTO sometime. It ain't that far,
really. 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 97 15:28:35 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX...not exactly

On 01/12/97 at 07:46 AM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

> (BTW:  If you find FF&S complex, don't even pick up GURPS Vehicles
> 2nd ed)

Doug, if people ever take the time to study FFS they might discover that it
isn't all that complex.  Personally, I think it's poorly laid out and
confusing...therefore hard to use, but not all that complex.  GURPS
Vehicles II is pretty much the same way.

As I've said elsewhere, I want a system out there where folks can design
subsystems that conform to QSDS (or a QSDS-like system) for vehicles,
starships, and equipment.  Use QSDS style parts to build lots of things,
"plug and play"...right?  The thing is we need people to create those
QSDS-style components before we can use them!

I also want a system out there where I can build *non-standard* components. 
Maybe I want my universe to use technology like in David Weber's Honor
Harrington series:  500g plus acceleration limited by inertia compensation;
hyperspace sails.  Or maybe I want to play with wormhole technology.  Or
maybe it's stutterwarp, or ST style warp, or "aether propellers" or
something outlandish like that.

What I want is a design framework available that let's me design all those
things, and more!  I want that framework to produce components that can be
plugged together with standard parts, and be useable in the roleplaying and
combat systems.  Preferably, with *any*
roleplaying or combat system, because already with T4 we have at least 3
space combat systems floating around, with more to come.

Getting all that is *bound* to be complex...period.  But if it's well
designed, laid out and explained well then the process still should be
fairly easy to use.

Good luck to us all! <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:45:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Led Mirage <lmirage@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints.

On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Led Mirage wrote:

> > I'd argue Canada, at least Oakville, is the last to get products.  Only T4
> > product around here is the rulebook, and that didn't arrive till October
> > anyway.  I stil have yet to even see Starships, Aliens, CSC, or JTAS
> 
> Perhaps you should make track to TORONTO sometime. It ain't that far,
> really. 

Dang, replying to my own message. Check out The Worldhouse on College st.
I generally get my stuff there. Friendly staff, though they charge arm and
a leg. Their website is www.worldhouse.com.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 97 21:37:00 GMT 
From: j.kundert@genie.com
Subject: JTAS #25

The new JTAS arrived in my mailbox yesterday. It's good first issue of a
magazine, and is another step on IGs path to sterling products. Based on
this issue, I will continue to buy JTAS and T4 supplements. Why? Because
unlike a bad movie that you stick with hoping vainly that it will improve,
T4 is improving with each release. Noticeably.
 There are foibles, however. This magazine has no price tag anywhere
obvious, and the labeling of this as issue #25 is an in-joke that needs
explaining in an editorial. Unless I'm blind there was no News Service, so
JTAS is not yet the voice of advancing history...

 There are good points as well. Two new artists make appearances here.
While both are acceptable in a Traveller magazine, I hope to see more new
talent (and hopefully some old talent) in future issues. The fiction in
this issue is mercifully short and bereft of gamespeak (As a benchmark,
I consider the optimal example of fiction in a game mag to be the heyday
of Steve Jackson's Space Gamer). The scenarios are useful, and the source
articles are all immediately useful (The two page Asym article is easier
reading than their part of the Alien Archive).

 I rate this a fine start.  Lets see more.


 Jim Kundert
 j.kundert@genie.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:16:55 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

> >> Melee weapons are useless in a 
> >>modern war

Wrong.  I had this discussion with one of my players a while back.  
He's an ex-Marine (the player, not the character), and he made a good 
point.

The bayonnet has been standard military issue for over 200 years.  
There's no reason to believe that will change.

I think he made his point.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:14:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Complexity [Long]

Hi,

I've been having some private conversations with a number of people over 
just this issue: complexity in Traveller.  I like complexity, but we can 
easily run into real-world problems.  Wait, let me give you an 
illustration. 

As it says in my .sig, I use an Atari 8-bit.  What it doesn't say is that 
I wrote a series of articles for a computer publication (Computer 
Currents) that argued passionately for a return to simpler computers.  
One was called, "Do You Have Too Much Computer?"  I program in assembler, 
so my contention was that if everyone would just program in 
highly-optimized assembler, we wouldn't need gigabyte hard drives and 16 
MB of RAM.  And I'm right - compile something in Visual BASIC, then do 
the same thing in hand-optimized ASM.  There's a huge difference in the 
size and speed of the resulting executable (I wrote a graphical, 
artificial life program that is interactive and instructive for the Atari 
8-bit; the assembled version is 4 kilobytes.  It ain't SimLife, but it's 
still a good example of what can be achieved in assembler).  Only thing is, 
it's a thousand times harder to train someone to do ASM properly, and it 
takes an ASM programmer a lot longer to write a program - and it is MUCH 
harder for the next person to come along and modify that code for 
version 2.0.  So, it just ain't economically feasible to do as I 
suggested, no matter how much I'd like things to be different.

Those of us who want Traveller to continue being the gearhead's nirvana 
are arguing the same thing I did in my articles.  And the argument is 
just as doomed.  IG is in this to make money.  To make money, they have 
to appeal to a broad audience.  As much as I hate to say it, most 
_existing_ gamers don't want to do anything but buy a pre-packaged 
adventure and run it with a minimum of fuss.  If IG wants to reach those 
who aren't currently RPGers (say, those who play CCG's), then they're 
going to have to put products out there that are simple to use.

Does this mean there's no place for FF&S?  Certainly not.  It's in the 
'97 product lineup, after all. :)  But JayStr's comments ring true; if 
FF&S is to sell to more than a relatively few old-timers, it'll have to 
be presented extremely well, so as to make it easy for anyone to pick it 
up and begin designing almost immediately.  Yes, there's QSDS and SSDS.  
But FF&S/NAH isn't going to sell if it doesn't allow the average person to 
make designs without taking a virtual course in engineering.

FF&S/NAH must be straight-forward and simple to use.  Explain the concepts 
thorougly as you go along, with good examples throughout.  Keep the 
tables clean and self-explanatory.  

Because, face it: if FF&S/NAH doesn't sell, there won't be any more 
gearhead-centric products ever again for Traveller.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:14:58 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD

At 12:55 PM 1/12/97 -0700, Dave Golden wrote:
>>3.	CD ROM PROJECT
>>	We've been working with IG on a project to bring the ENTIRE 
>>	Traveller rules set out on CD ROM.  IG is now trying to gauge
>>	interest in this project.  Please let them  know what your
>>	thoughts are on this potential product.
>
>	I would be very interested in such a product IFF*
>	It contains more than just the T4 stuff--in other words, _all_ (or most)
>of the historical material
>	- Classic Traveller Rules
>	- Classic Traveller Adventures
>	- Classic Traveller Supplements
>	- All JTAS articles from issue 1
>	- Challenge material related to Traveller
>	- MegaTraveller rules, supplements, adventures
>	- TNE rules, supplements, adventures
>	- as much third-party material as can be obtained

Hmmm.. sounds like you want an archive.  My wish list would have the rules
in a hypertext format, GM aid software for ship ops, combat and the like..
basically, everything I need to run Traveller from my desk (or laptop, if I
ever get one).

For the intial release. M:0 info would be nice.. a huge listing of ships,
vehicles, and equipment DESIGNED BY US GEARHEADS.


>	- MUST BE ABLE TO EDIT IT! I want to edit things for my own particular
>flavor. 

This isn't a great requirement for me.  I keep my campaign notes on a disk..
as I said, I want the rules, with explanations and walk throughs.

There are a few cookies I'd like to see:

- -Graphics of things like the Imperial Sunburst, Military symbols, planetary
insignia, etc. done as a clip art library.

- -The Galangic alphabet, as used in various DGP products, rendered as a True
Type font.

- -The Imperial Anthem in .wav

- -A blank for creating TNS pages.

>	You also might want to consider seeing if some of us who have web sites
>would be willing to allow portions of the material on our sites be included
>on the CD-ROM. Personally, I would (with the original author's permission).

Just what we need.. The Silly Era on CD!

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #834
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 12 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 835



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperium Games Web Newsletter - 12 Jan 96
Re: JTAS #25
Gearheads and gamers...a question
Re: Traveller CD ROM
Re: Complexity and Playability
Aliens Archive
Re: There's gold in that there infrastructure...(longish)
Re: Lots of complaints.
Complaints and the 5%
Re: JTAS #25
Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question
Re: JTAS #25
Re: Starships is broken, too! 
Re: Complaints and the 5%
Re: Calling Out the Ten
Journal Response Form & Review
Re: JTAS #25
Re: Complaints and the 5%
RE: Gearheads and gamers...a question
Re: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:18:28 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Imperium Games Web Newsletter - 12 Jan 96

>2.	PRODUCT LIST
>	The complete product schedule for 1997 is now online.
>	http://www.imperiumgames.com/products.html

And, it looks very promising, combine these with the three releases from
GRG, and possible ones from CORE, and it looks like a Traveller 1997!

>3.	CD ROM PROJECT
>	We've been working with IG on a project to bring the ENTIRE 
>	Traveller rules set out on CD ROM.  IG is now trying to gauge
>	interest in this project.  Please let them  know what your
>	thoughts are on this potential product.
>	http://www.imperiumgames.com/news.html	

As Dave Golden says, it has to include more than the rules.  I'd pay $70 for
the complete T4 rules set, a lot of the classic Traveller materials and
other stuff (perhaps in a 'historical archive - warn people sector data may
change), as well as the newer background material.  If it's well done, costs
less, indexed good, I'll purchase it.

Thanks,

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:25:25 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: JTAS #25

>  I rate this a fine start.  Lets see more.

That's 5 out of 10!  Keep the thumbs coming!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:40:35 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Gearheads and gamers...a question

In response to Joe Walsh's insight as to the necessity of new gamers, do
we have anyone under 25 years old on the list?  What is the average age
of the list.  i.e. Are we dinosaurs?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 05:04:19 +0000
From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD ROM

I would buy it in a heartbeat
html format is the best idea
how about including the data from the Atlas of the Imperium

The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:52:09 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Complexity and Playability

If you would have asked be before TNE, you could have put me down as 
a die hard, detail oriented role player.

The more details the better.  The more complex the better.

But, as I played TNE, I noticed something.  It was taking a very long 
time to play, and my player were loosing interest.

Alas, I was loosing interest with all the rolling for every bullet, 
and the hit point system, and the odd weight numbers.  

Here's a case in point.  We'd get in a situation where weight was a 
factor.  Needing to know the encumbrance for each character, I'd 
audit my players on what they were carrying.

In stead of just adding up easy weights, like a pistol that weighs 
4kg, my players would have to add numbers like 3.92537 kg.  I think 
you see where I am going with this.  While the long number is 
unnecessary, it is more realistic.

Also, take a gun fight with fully automatic fire.  An attacker can 
take 5 pulls of the trigger in an action round in TNE, and if he has 
two actions in a single round, he can take ten.  On top of that, we 
roll to see if each bullet hits in the burst, and each pull of the 
trigger is a 5 round burst.  That's 25 attack throws!  And, after 
that, you roll several hit location throws and their corresponding 
damage throws.

Now, come on.  That's a lot of detail.  When I first picked up TNE, 
I was in love.  I had been dreaming about that kind of detail in a 
game.  But after playing it, for the first time in my life, I could 
see what others had been screaming about when they talked of 
"playability".

I still like a good measure of detail, but since TNE, I know that 
there is a limit.

I think the key is to achieve the detail TNE gave us with a simple 
system that reflects that.

But, that's always been the GOAL in the gaming industry, hasn't it?

More detail always means more factors to consider, which means more 
dice throws, which means more rule complexity, which means more time 
needed to play, which means lack of playability.

Striking a balance, like in most things, is the key.

Here's a suggestion.  I do not think it would be unreasonable to have 
two systems for given items.  Like starship combat.  It used to be in 
Traveller that you had several options to choose from.  There was the 
system given in the CT book, the High Guard system, and the Mayday 
system.  

Better yet, in TNE, you had the system in the main book, Brilliant 
Lances for ship to ship, and Battle Rider for fleet to fleet.

I like the choices.  It seems that the design systems could be 
similiar.  People who like complexity and detail should be able to 
use a T4 updated FF&S system, while others can use a simplier, 
modular system.

One perk that I would really applaud is to have all of the systems 
mutually interactive so that a vehicle designed in the system given 
in CSC will be compatible and give the same type of stats as a 
vehicle designed in the new T4 FF&S.

And as Berretta would say, "Dat's the name of dat tune."

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:52:18 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Aliens Archive

Sorry, not in detail. And, since they are evidently all Minor Races, which
my campaign(s) never had anything to do with, I really don't have any need
for them either -- *certainly* not at the level of padding that is
involved.

After all, when you count out all the useless colour and irrelevant
floorplans in Starships you're left with around 36 pages of useful (and
that's stretching the word!) material. The rest is overpriced padding.

CSC, by virtue of the *vastly* lower garbage illo vs. text ratio is
actually a good buy. AA isn't, because of the large "Golden Book" text
padding -- tho its probably better than Starships.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:53:48 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: There's gold in that there infrastructure...(longish)

On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, J.D. Burdick wrote:
>
> At 01:02 PM 1/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >        The implications for Milieu 0 of all this are so painfully obvious
> >they don't need mentioning.  The real money to be made in the expanding
> >early Third Imperium won't be in selling fusion guns to local dictators
> >(peanuts, really), or even selling Fusion+ units to everybody, but rather
> >in identifying planets where the conditions are ripe for a growth boom.
> >Then you go to local governments at about TL4 and up, and pitch them a deal
> >whereby your megacorp will build them a spaceport, fusion plants, a power
> >grid, a roadgrid system, a telecom system, hospitals, and water & sewage
> >systems at no cost to the government... and all you get are user fee
> >concessions for the next century.

This also ensures that all of the planets in the Third Imperium have the
same "standards" - so, for example, an electrical applicance manufactured
on one planet can be plugged into a wall socket on another planet (I would
imagine this kind of thing would extend to everything from electronic
character encoding sets to the diameters of nuts and bolts).  If nothing
else, this would encourage "uplifted" planets on the frontier, whose
infrastructures were put together will Imperial help, to trade with the
Imperium, rather than with their non-Imperial (and thus, perhaps,
"non-standard") neighbors...
                                                             - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 22:50:03 +0000
From: D Jones <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints.

At 17:14 12/01/97 +0001, Nick Meredith wrote:
>Don't expect too much positive feed back from Britain yet. It's only 
>a few weeks since I managed to find Starships over here. As for the 
>decent products, I would expect to see them in about 2-3 weeks.
>
>To the gent from Louisiana who compained that they get things last. I 
>bet you don't - Europe is still way slower.
>-- 
>Cheers
>Nick Meredith - nickm@discover.co.uk - Coventry, UK
>
>
And so say all of us.

TTFN

Del Jones
Lancashire, UK

"Sodomus non cogito" - Karol Siinger 105-1116

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:58:31 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Complaints and the 5%

I suppose that *I* qualify as one of the 5% of inveterate whiners :-)

However, I don't think that your comments are entirely fair. The complaints
that have been made are *not* about minor things -- they are about factors
that threaten the survival and growth of the game that we all love --
Traveller. IG *seems* to have lost the plot in the early days. Sure, it
*MAY* be getting its act together (tho AA and JTAS don't seem to augur well
for that), but is it too late? How many new (or *potentially* new) players
are going to buy Starships and feel so ripped off that they'll say -- "Oh.
I can get Star Wars RPG in *full colour* on *glossy paper* in a *decent*
hardbound edition, and it all works, there's no huge problems that make
vital subsystems unusable -- and its reasonably priced, too."? I suspect
the answer will be -- LOTS.

Is it too late to save Traveller? Don't know. But IG better do something
*radical* to improve quality and all the areas we've been complaining about
or they'll go the way of GDW. After all, how many people out there threw
their hands up in disgust at MegaTraveller 1st Edition and didn't come
back? Or at TNE? *LOTS* I suspect, or GDW would still be with us.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:01:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: JTAS #25

At 16:25 11/01/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>  I rate this a fine start.  Lets see more.
>
>That's 5 out of 10!  Keep the thumbs coming!

A few tremors at the beginning, but thus far, no major earthquakes.  I say
T4 is doing well now that Courtney is in charge, their web page is great,
and the products ar elooking better.  Clear sailing for 1997.

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:01:31 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question

At 17:40 12/01/97 -0800, you wrote:
>In response to Joe Walsh's insight as to the necessity of new gamers, do
>we have anyone under 25 years old on the list?  What is the average age
>of the list.  i.e. Are we dinosaurs?

Well, I believe I'm one of the junior members of this list, at 17.  However,
my experience in RPGs does NOT come from CCGs (products of the devil I
believe <g>), but from my older brother, who introduced me to D&D at age 8.

Just, for the record, I love complexity, as it gives me something to do with
my RPGs when I don't have anyone around to game with.  Designing a starship
with QSDS\SSDS is much more satisfying than with a simple design system.

Thanks,

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 17:31:17 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: JTAS #25

> At 16:25 11/01/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >
> >>  I rate this a fine start.  Lets see more.
> >
> >That's 5 out of 10!  Keep the thumbs coming!
> 
> A few tremors at the beginning, but thus far, no major earthquakes.  I say
> T4 is doing well now that Courtney is in charge, their web page is great,
> and the products ar elooking better.  Clear sailing for 1997.

6 out of 10!  We are over the hump.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:29:02 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Re: Starships is broken, too! 

> From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
> To: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
> Subject: RE: Starships is broken, too! 
> Date: Monday, January 13, 1997 5:59 AM
> 
> In Reply to Your Message of Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10: 32:06 +1100
> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:59:44 -0500
> From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@strauss2.udel.edu>
> 
> : And you're *still* missing the point. The ones *I* am talking about
were
> 
> No, I am not missing the point.  What I am saying is that they are two
> distinct design systems.  QSDS is suppossed to be plain, vanilla ships,
> SSDS is suppossed to be plug-and-play ships and NAH will be a complete
> custom system.
> 
> If I recall correctly, Books 2 and 5 did not match up with what they
> produced either.  The ships designed in the T4 book were designed with
> QSDS, and that should be the system you're comparing them against, not
> the SSDS in Starships!  And yes, I know that the figures probably
> weren't double-checked, but that a problem of editing of the book, not
> the system itself.  And yes, the ships presented in Starships should
> have been designed with SSDS.  But SSDS is not to blame for Perrin's
> slipshod job on the damn book.

Sure. But the point even with Books #2 and #5 was that they actually came
pretty close to the same figures. There wasn't a 40-60% variation in price,
for example.

> : But how on earth are IG going to *keep* their "faithful" customers
(like
> : myself, playing since the little black box CTrav was first released in,
> : what, 1977?) and you if they stuff us around *worse* than MTrav did?
And,
> : worse, how many *potential* gamers out there are going to look at the
> : poorly laid out, poorly illustrated, poorly typeset, completely
unusable
> : products like "Starships" and say, "I'd rather spend my money on
something
> : that *works", *looks good* and is *reasonably priced* ... like Star
Wars!".
> 
> Don't take this the wrong way, but IG is wrong if they're trying to
> cater to the same people that bought the game 10 let alone 20 years ago.
> We aren't a growth market.  They do need to produce a game that
> *today's* gamer wants.  Unfortunately for some from the old guard, that
> means doing things a little differently.  I'm sorry, but I don't think
> the design system is as big a factor as the other things you listed,
> namely good production, editing and art.  As for Star Wars, I know that
> the biggest complaint that many people on *that* mailing list have is
> that there isn't a design sequence for the game.  Even worse, the ships
> presented aren't consistent.  The grass is always greener...  8)

Don't get me wrong. I think the CTrav game system stank (apart from
Starship design) -- MTrav was something I was *avidly* awaitingm but,
IMNSHO, the Task Resolution system was so complex, ill-thought out, and
badly designed that it was unusable (and, yes, I know that lots of people
disagree). As far as TNE is concerned, the *game system* was *great* ...
I've always liked the T:2000 d20 game system, and this was even better than
T4 as far as I am concerned. The *background* stank to high heaven, and the
ridiculous design rules -- the wholesale change from Thruster Plates to
HePlar for example -- were a total turn-off.

So, I hope that I don't come across as a total fuddy-duddy living in the
past. I'm not.

As for Star Wars, well, how many players of *it* have Net access? This is
the point I'm trying to get across -- *we* are *not* representative. And if
you stuff buyers around with garbage like Starships *is* (OK, it wasn't
*intended* to be that way, but we have to live with the reality), then
they'll look at Star Wars, which is a *much* better presented product and
*seems* better value for money to the sort of High School/Junior College
Market we're evidently aiming at. The reality of Star Wars may be that its
not as good as Traveller -- but we'll still lose to it for the reasons I
have suggested. Or we might, if IG doesn't *radically* get its act
together.

> : This is a real risk. I know that, as of CSC, I have stopped buying IG
T4
> : stuff. I won't get Aliens Archive. I'm of two minds about JTAS. And if
the
> : following products don't get their act together, I'll ditch T4 *as a
> : system* completely. It's, as it stands at the moment, hugely flawed in
> : vital areas -- and retro-fixes won't change the fact that we spent good
> : money on something that is less useful than MTrav (and that, believe
me, is
> : saying something).
> 
> I don't blame you at all for thinking this way.  This is a consumer
> market and you're voting with your dollars.  Personally, if I ever see
> CORPS Vehicles, I may switch my Traveller campaign over to the CORPS
> system.  I don't think that it's the rules I like as much as the setting
> that I'm in love with.

Yep, I'm waiting for CORPS vehicles myself. Greg reckons its close to
playtest stage, too! So (with luck) it *might* be available, as they say in
the computer software game "real soon now" :-)

And he *has* commented to the effect that you *could* use it to design
Starships -- even though there are no specific starship stuff in it like
MDrives and JDrives -- so maybe what we *really* want is CORPS *Starships*
as well! Or even, dare I say it, CORPS "Traveller".

> MegaTraveller is the first version of Traveller that was every exposed
> to.  And I still fell in love with it!  Actually, Ifter all the errata,
> I have to admit that I like it's task system and the design system.  It
> quenched everything that Star Wars left me thirsty for.  Okay, the
> combat with interrupts was a tad out of hand.

See above comments on MTrav and TNE

> : Well, I think you're still missing the point. Granted that the pitiful
way
> : in which information is presented on ships in the T4 system makes it
> : impossible to do more than guesstimate what goes into them, you should
> : still be able to (I would guess) get within plus or minus 10% with some
> : fiddling. However, when the best you can do is 40-60% too expensive,
well,
> : the figure stands for itself. This is *not* a minor detail disagreement
> : between TML members, it is a *major* flaw.
> 
> I agree with you that this is definitely a problem.  But we're looking
> in two different areas.  You're blaming a design system that doesn't
> agree with results that weren't double-checked.  I blame the results and
> the fact that things weren't edited or checked up on.  If you and I
> create the same ship independently we'll get the same results.  If one
> of us makes a mistake along the way, the other will catch it.  I'm
> pretty sure that final step was skipped in the making of T4.

Its not that the designed ships don't match with the results from the
Starships rules, its that *Starships* can't be used to design the "classic"
ships. If you use Starships you get ships that are *twice* as expensive as
they should be according to canonical sources.

> : Since someone stole my 1st Edition many years ago, and I only have 2nd
> : Edition, I can't compare. And since availabilty of JTAS in Oz in those
days
> 
> I'm just saying that your argument hits home with HG.  No edition of
> Traveller has every been safe.  I agree that you cannot come close with
> MT or FFS.  I do however think that they were both great ideas that were
> presented very poorly.  I think that QSDS and SSDS are the right ideas.
> QSDS is as equally complex as HG.  SSDS is more complex for those
> desiring the extra detail.  And NAH will be even more so for those that
> want to use it.  That's the correct approach--start slow and build up to
> something.

But the point is that HG still worked. MTrav never did, as far as I could
see (of course, I really couldn't be bothered with a "Step 31 - Step #14 -
Step #3 - Step #2 - Step #12" sort of design sequence), and TNE was
actually *worse* than MTrav. Niether ever worked for me -- nor did they for
most of the gaming public. I don;t mind using 3G^3 for the simple reason
that the design sequences are just that, *sequential*, they are simple to
use, and even a non-gearhead like me finds them easy to understand and
emplace. MTrav and FF&S were simply unusable for me -- and for most people
not on this list, I suspect.

> As for SSDS, I really need to know why it's completely unusable.  Is it
> because the values don't match up with the examples.  Pardon me, but
> forget the fucking examples!!!  IG has proven time and again, that they
> screwed up on T4 and Starships and that both products were poorly
> editited.

And thats the main reason. I don't want pages of errata like we got for
MTrav and TNE. That sort of stuffup is now a Traveller "tradition", one
that will kill it *dead* if they don't get their act together.

> : Yep, I've always said that 3G3 is great (I have the new Hardcover! Only
a
> : few minor typoes so far). GURPS Vehicles #1 was great, 2nd Edition has
gone
> : the route of MTrav/FF&S -- you know "Oh, you can't do step #3 until
you've
> : done step #12 -- and you can't do step #12 until you've done steps
#1-11
> : and #15 ... etc."
> 
> This goes back to what I was saying earlier about a different market.
> This is what people are asking for.  You're absolutely right Vehicles
> 2nd is tougher than 1st.  However, if you look at it, it's still very
> well laid out and more ergonomically designed that FF&S.

And still completely unusable for most people because it has the same
nonsequential design "sequences" that FF&S and MTrav had. How many people
like me bought it because GV#1 was so good found out too late that it was
like that? I personally will only be using the GV#1 *sequences* with some
of the extra detail from the GV#2 book -- GV#2 by itself is so complex as
to be unusable. Is simply don't have the time to create a Spreadsheet (and
don't really know how -- or care to learn) to make it simpler. I think SJ
have lost the plot with this product even tho it will sell well based on
the rep of GV#1. Thats my opinion, FWLIW.

> : > I yearn for the yesteryear of Traveller too, but not at the expense
of
> : > sacrificing the *actual advances* that have been made to the system
over
> : > the years.
> : 
> : OK, I'll bite, *what* "actual advances" ... leave out the *background*,
> : now, *only* the game system!
> 
> First advance, the MT task system.  Second, the more comprehensive
> design rules.  I think that they should've presented in a better way,
> but I like the fact that I can create *consistent* vehicles.  What I
> really appreciated about TNE was that all values (dam, armor, etc...)
> were consistent across the board.  There weren't three different scales.

And MTrav Task resolution was one of the *worst* "advances" in Traveller,
IMHO. Even TNE implemented it better! The design rules were non-sequential
and, therefore, unusable without a spreadsheet (well, that's they way I
felt). TNE was an improvement, except for Virus, HePlar and FF&S ... er,
pretty much everything, in fact!

> And I also appreciate the fact that combat rules have been pared down.
> 
> Next time you go to your local game store, look at the Heavy Gear
> rulebook.  It's dense, it's well laid out, it flows.  Everything in it
> is presented as "the basics" and then "advanced (optional)" rules.  It's
> perfect!  Hell CORPS 2ed is just as good.

yes, and if only they'd gotten Dream Pod 9 or Greg to design the new
Traveller *game system* we wouldn't be having this "discussion". (To be
fair, I don't mind the non-design aspects of the system -- Tasks, Combat et
al -- even tho it is a little dated).

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:59:39 -0600
From: "J.D. Burdick" <twolf@tfs.net>
Subject: Re: Complaints and the 5%

At 09:58 AM 1/13/97 +1100, you wrote:
>I suppose that *I* qualify as one of the 5% of inveterate whiners :-)
>
You said it, I didn't.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 18:07:35 -0600
From: "J.D. Burdick" <twolf@tfs.net>
Subject: Re: Calling Out the Ten

At 03:08 PM 1/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>> Hear, hear! Thanks for getting me off my duff. IG is definitely made
>> improvements.

Count me as number four.  They are improving.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 18:13:03 -0600
From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Subject: Journal Response Form & Review

I fondly remember completing and often returning the Journal
Feedback Response Forms that were printed on the mailing jacket that
accompanied JTAS issues 2 through 24. (I missed the first issue, give 
me a break! :-) I was glad that LKW and GDW were so interested in the 
readers opinions. (I'm sure I ranted a bit in more than one of them. 
;-)

I was surprised that a response form didn't accompany JTAS #25, so
here's mine! It's modelled after the original form.

=====
I've rated each article and Issue 25 as a whole. 1 indicates great
dissatifaction, 5 indicates great satisfaction, 2, 3, and 4 are
shades in between.

Vestiges                                3.0
Warden of the Everlasting Flame         3.5
Bits of Biotechnology                   3.5
Aliens Archive: The Asym                2.0
The Silver Moon Incident                4.5
Free Trader Beowulf                     3.0
One Hundred Cargoes                     4.0
JTAS Writer's and Artist's Guidelines   3.0

Issue 25 as a Whole                     4.0
=====

I hope future issues of JTAS include some sort of response form, 
even if only for subscribers.

One other notable item missing from JTAS #25 is an address for 
general and editorial mail. Hopefully the masthead will be more 
complete in future issues.

For a complete review of JTAS #25, visit:

     http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/traveller/reviews/JTAS-25.html


Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@NASCRAG.ORG

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 18:22:16 -0500
From: whitman@pensys.com (Ken Whitman)
Subject: Re: JTAS #25

 Peter Miller wrote:

>I say T4 is doing well now that Courtney is in charge, their web page is great,
>and the products ar elooking better.

(knife through the heart) AUGHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhh......... (dead,
twitching on the ground)

Explination:

There products you are seeing now is still made by the same people, minus
me.  I however, managed the productions of CSC, AA, and JTAS.  I created
the scheduel (along with Marc) until August 1998, and the reason were late
are because Courtney and I were discusing my terms of departure from the
IG.  Most of these products were done months ago and sat waiting.  This
waiting period could have lasted months more, however, I thought the most
important people (the fans) would end up being the victoms if that
happened.

I wish IG and Cortney great sucess for the future.  Remember Traveller is
my favorit game!  However, before anyone go passing out kudoos, you should
wait until after First Survey and Milieu 0 are are released.

(Pull knife out of chest) Ouch.  That feels much better.-)

Thanx for your time,

Ken Whitman

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:23:17 -0500
From: russcm@zoomnet.net (Christopher M. Russell)
Subject: Re: Complaints and the 5%

>Is it too late to save Traveller? Don't know. But IG better do something
>*radical* to improve quality and all the areas we've been complaining about
>or they'll go the way of GDW. After all, how many people out there threw
>their hands up in disgust at MegaTraveller 1st Edition and didn't come
>back? Or at TNE? *LOTS* I suspect, or GDW would still be with us.
>
>Phil

Megtraveller was not the downfall of GDW, it lost out because it didn't
follow up on the sucesses it had. I hear much about TNE stuff, and sold well
from what I understand.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 18:40:10 -0600
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Gearheads and gamers...a question

>In response to Joe Walsh's insight as to the necessity of new gamers, do
>we have anyone under 25 years old on the list?  What is the average age
>of the list.  i.e. Are we dinosaurs?

	Well, I'm only 21, but I don't really count. I'm this young because I got into CT when I was REALLY young (like 12).

	Is T4 attracting any new 12-year-old gamers anymore?

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:43:13 -0500 (EST)
From: BrianMays@aol.com
Subject: Re: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)

In a message dated 97-01-12 13:02:18 EST, you write:

> Let's just hope that White Wolf *doesn't* have the same effect on
>  its players... >:)=


Too late . . . I live in the Haight-Ashbury district of San Francisco - the
place is rampant with teeny-bopper vampire wannabees.  Apparently, wearing
black, listening to The Smiths & The Cure, and whining about how alternative
you are, and how nobody can POSSIBLY understand you, isn't enough these days.
 Now you have to play live vampire games, shoot heroin, and get arrested for
biting your girlfriend while she's semi-conscious (a true news item here,
BTW).

Traveller has definitely piqued my interest in things scientific and
mathematical, but I have to give D&D credit with jump-starting my imagination
and vocabulary, as well as my appreciation of mythology.

Brian (I GOT my edumacation) Mays

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #835
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 13 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 836



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Journal Response Form & Review
Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question
Re: Complaints and the 5%
[none]
Re: Traveller CD
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #835
Re: Melee weapons
Re: Journal Response Form & Review
Joe Heck's WWW site in arcane magazine
Re: Joe Heck's WWW site in arcane magazine
Calling of the 10
Re: Melee weapons
Re: Joe Heck's WWW site in arcane magazine
Vote of support for CSC 
What happened to the NAH?
Re: There's gold in that there infrastructure...(longish)
Re: JTAS #25
Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question
Re: There's gold in that there infrastructure...(longish)
Re: JTAS #25
Re: Vote of support for CSC 
[none]
Age of Traveller Players
Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question
Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question
Re: Complexity and Playability
Re: Complaints and the 5%
RE: Age of Traveller Players

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:53:28 +0000
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Journal Response Form & Review

At 18:13 12/01/97 -0600, you wrote:
>I fondly remember completing and often returning the Journal
>Feedback Response Forms that were printed on the mailing jacket that
>accompanied JTAS issues 2 through 24. (I missed the first issue, give 
>me a break! :-) I was glad that LKW and GDW were so interested in the 
>readers opinions. (I'm sure I ranted a bit in more than one of them. 
>;-)
>
>I was surprised that a response form didn't accompany JTAS #25, so
>here's mine! It's modelled after the original form.
>
>=====
>I've rated each article and Issue 25 as a whole. 1 indicates great
>dissatifaction, 5 indicates great satisfaction, 2, 3, and 4 are
>shades in between.
>
>Vestiges                                3.0
>Warden of the Everlasting Flame         3.5
>Bits of Biotechnology                   3.5
>Aliens Archive: The Asym                2.0
>The Silver Moon Incident                4.5
>Free Trader Beowulf                     3.0
>One Hundred Cargoes                     4.0
>JTAS Writer's and Artist's Guidelines   3.0
>
>Issue 25 as a Whole                     4.0
>=====
>
>I hope future issues of JTAS include some sort of response form, 
>even if only for subscribers.
>
>One other notable item missing from JTAS #25 is an address for 
>general and editorial mail. Hopefully the masthead will be more 
>complete in future issues.
>
>For a complete review of JTAS #25, visit:
>
>     http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/traveller/reviews/JTAS-25.html
>
David,

	Your web site, when going into the following....

		Heroes from 1001 Characters 
		Heroes and Villains from Citizens of the Imperium 

	...it comes up...

		File Not Found

The requested URL /~dtb/traveller/CT-S4.html was not found on this server.

	

	Hope this helps.

	All the best...

	
Bruce E J Lewis

bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk , bejlewis@aol.com
Mobile Tel - 0956-506527          
From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:02:16 -0500 (EST)
From: BrianMays@aol.com
Subject: Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question

Well, I'm 27, I'm not a gearhead (but I'm in training to be one ;-)), and
I've been playing Traveller off and on since The Traveller Book came out.  I
stopped playing for a while, surfaced long enough to see Traveller become The
New Era, decided it was hideous, and went back to other pursuits.

Last year I decided to backtrack, and bought all the MT stuff I could find.
 I began a classic Traveller campaign using the MT rules, only to hear of the
impending release of T4.  After smacking into errata-from-hell time and again
with MT, we switched to SpaceMaster.  Then T4 appeared . . .

I fear for my life if I switch game systems one more time with this bunch.
:-)  However, I am addicted to the Traveller universe (ever since I was 16),
so it is inevitable that I will try to wean them from the rollicking
Space-Opera fun we're having now, and go for the grit with T4.

As for the group, none of us work with computers for a living.  Several of us
work in the human service non-profit sector, others are buyers for retail
chains, etc.  But we all got a kick out of Traveller.

Brian Mays

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:10:01 -0500 (EST)
From: BrianMays@aol.com
Subject: Re: Complaints and the 5%

In a message dated 97-01-12 18:02:14 EST, you write:

> How many new (or *potentially* new) players
>  are going to buy Starships and feel so ripped off that they'll say -- "Oh.
>  I can get Star Wars RPG in *full colour* on *glossy paper* in a *decent*
>  hardbound edition, and it all works, there's no huge problems that make
>  vital subsystems unusable -- and its reasonably priced, too."? I suspect
>  the answer will be -- LOTS.

I hate to agree with this, but in my FNGS, they have a huge display with all
the new game releases.  The Traveller stuff is gathering dust (including
loads of hard-covers that have been there forever).  The new "Bubblegum
Crisis," "Heavy Gear," "Earthdawn," "GURPS," and even ICE Standard System
stuff is selling very well.  I hope IG's sales are better in other areas of
the globe.

Brian Mays

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:30:30 +1000
From: PARISC@complete.com.au (Paris Conte)
Subject: [none]

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 01:24:11 UT
From: "Arthur Murphy" <MycroftHolmes@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD

I like the idea of a CDRom based resource.  I would even be willing to do the 
programming to make the HTML code and interfaces work.  
	A good integrated design program, (access, VB, excel, whatever) would make 
ship and vehicle design much less painful.
	How could this be a bad thing?

Arthur Murphy
Mycroftholmes@msn.com
"If you can't get out of it, get into it"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:02:05 -0800
From: John Watts <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #835

Well....

I'm an old-time Traveller gamer ( 13 years now )....but I'm 26 yrs old. 
So...maybe I'm a dinosaur too.
- -- 
" No Good Deed Ever Goes Unpunished" - 285th Ferengi Rule of Acquisition

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 97 17:43:46 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

On 01/12/97 at 09:25 AM,  Neveron@aol.com said:

> In a full blown battle, yes, a melee weapon is foolish, but what about a
> boarding action, especially if you don't want to risk damaging the ship
> being boarded. Asssins are also fond of hand to hand weapons....

As are duelists, and it appears there is a "code duelo" in the Imperium.  

It may well be that a well-educated "Gentleman" or "Gentlewoman" is
expected to be able to handle a foil, saber, or dueling pistol. If that's
the case, then people will *use* what they know.  So, even in situations
where a saber might not be the logical thing to use, it still might be the
weapon of *social* choice.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:17:23 -0600
From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Subject: Re: Journal Response Form & Review

Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk> wrote:
>
> David,
> 
> 	Your web site, when going into the following....
> 
> 		Heroes from 1001 Characters 
> 		Heroes and Villains from Citizens of the Imperium 
> 
> 	...it comes up...
> 
> 		File Not Found
> 
> The requested URL /~dtb/traveller/CT-S4.html was not found on this server.

Thanks. It's a work in progress. Sorry.

Soon, very soon! Really. ;-)

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@NASCRAG.ORG

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:24:05 CST
From: galliand@juno.com (Scott M Galliand)
Subject: Joe Heck's WWW site in arcane magazine

I just picked up the latest issue of arcane from Barnes & Nobles (for
those of us in the US, that looks like to be the Christmas issue.).  I
pick it up every so often, like when they had the special issue a few
months agon on T4.

One of the first sections I usually look at is the arcane on-line page. 
It highlights five WWW sites "you can't afford to miss."  In this issue
(#14), there was a favorable quick review if Joe Heck's site, complete
with picture.  It's only about a paragraph or so, but it's a very nice
review.

Also in the same issue, they rate the top fifty games of all time
according to them.  Traveller rang in in third place.  If anyone is
interested on other GDW games, Space:1889 (one of my personal faveorites)
was at 20, Twilight:2000 came in at 35, Dark Conspiracy at 43 and 2300 AD
at 50.

Just thought you guys might that interesting.

Scott Galliand

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 18:29:04 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Joe Heck's WWW site in arcane magazine

A>Also in the same issue, they rate the top fifty games of all time
>according to them.  Traveller rang in in third place.  If anyone is
>interested on other GDW games, Space:1889 (one of my personal faveorites)
>was at 20, Twilight:2000 came in at 35, Dark Conspiracy at 43 and 2300 AD
>at 50.

Bit off-topic, but I'm interested in what the top 10 are.

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 18:27:47 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <BRuadh@earthlink.net>
Subject: Calling of the 10

To all,

Thumbs up IG

Brian A. Howard
- -- 
If it sounds like a Babel Fish run... 
for a Vogon constructor fleet
can not be far behind!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:42:23 -0600
From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

Neveron@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> In a full blown battle, yes, a melee weapon is foolish, but what
>> about a boarding action, ...
>>
>> Assassins are also fond of hand to hand weapons....


Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net> wrote:
> 
> As are duelists, and it appears there is a "code duelo" in the
> Imperium.


For inspiration it might be worth it to hunt down a copy of GDW's
_En Garde!_. I keep my copy at my mistress's house. ;-)

And who knows, maybe there's even a clue in the rules regarding 
jump drives? :-)

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@NASCRAG.ORG

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:42:15 CST
From: galliand@juno.com (Scott M Galliand)
Subject: Re: Joe Heck's WWW site in arcane magazine

Well, someone asked...

The top 10, according to arcane:

1. Call of Cthulhu
2. AD&D
3. Traveller
4. Warhammer Fantasy PRG
5. RuneQuest
6. Vampire: The Masquerade
7. Paranoia
8. Shadowrun
9. Star Wars, and...
10. Cyberpunk

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 97 13:48:12 +0000
From: James.Dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au
Subject: Vote of support for CSC 

     Hello,
     
        I would like to add my vote of support behind CSC. I went out and 
     bought it on the weekend (I was VERY surprised to see it in Oz so 
     quickly!). I also bought AA, but I haven't gotten to that one yet. I 
     suppose that shows my preference! :-)
     
        So far I have spent 2 or so hours looking over the equipment 
     descriptions, chuckling at the anecdotes, and thinking - this is the 
     sort of thing that my players will have lots of fun using. I was also 
     pleased to see lots of useful equipment for my style of adventure - 
     less gun toting and more exploration, research and contact.
     
        IG - well done IMHO this is a good solid supplement.
     
     James Dempsey.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 06:12:58 -0800
From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
Subject: What happened to the NAH?

Thanks everybody for the feedback, and for the generally tolerant
atmosphere. I'm preparing a list of specific ways I think FF&S can be
vastly simplified, and will naturally post it whenever it gets ready;
but in the meantime I'm kind of puzzled about something.

Because I just visited IG's new web page for the first time, and saw
several products that might qualify as ship design systems, stock ship
lists, and/or catalogs of QSDS/SSDS components:

1) Emperor's Arsenal,
2) Imperial Squadrons,
and, bless my soul,
3) Fire, Fusion, & Steel. (God help us).

But no Naval Architect's Handbook. 

So: What happened to NAH? Was that merely a working title for something
else? Has the old FF&S been busted up between starship design components
and everything else? What's the deal? What rules are going to be in
which book? Anybody know?

- -- Jay Stranahan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 23:10:33 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: There's gold in that there infrastructure...(longish)

J.D. Burdick wrote:

>
>At 01:02 PM 1/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>        The implications for Milieu 0 of all this are so painfully obvious
>>they don't need mentioning.  The real money to be made in the expanding
>>early Third Imperium won't be in selling fusion guns to local dictators
>>(peanuts, really), or even selling Fusion+ units to everybody, but rather
>>in identifying planets where the conditions are ripe for a growth boom.
>>Then you go to local governments at about TL4 and up, and pitch them a deal
>>whereby your megacorp will build them a spaceport, fusion plants, a power
>>grid, a roadgrid system, a telecom system, hospitals, and water & sewage
>>systems at no cost to the government... and all you get are user fee
>>concessions for the next century.  Everybody involved wins: the planet
>>benefits from the infrastructure and massive sustained economic growth, and
>>you & your megacorp make insane amounts of money, as you're running the
>>power company, the phone company, the water company, the health system, the
>>toll roads, etc, etc, etc <excuse me where I go do a Mr. Burns impression>.
>>
>Excellent idea for a campaign.  Thanks.
>
>JD
>Twolf

        Well, that's what I thought too.  Assuming that the PC's in my
upcoming Milieu 0 campaign actually survive the Das Boot meets Mars
Attacks! madness that I have planned for them (since at least one of the
players reads this list, you can all consider this strategic disinformation
<or not>), I figure that it might be fun to run something like this...
They clinch the deal, then there's a coup, the local equivalent of the mob
start muscling in, they have hellish union troubles, the local
anti-Imperial party starts acting up, etc, etc, etc...

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick D. Elliott... rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca              |
|                        elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca           |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| "...an imperfect plan implemented immediately and violently |
| will always succeed better than a perfect plan."            |
|                        -Gen. George S. Patton.              |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:15:24 -0700 (MST)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: JTAS #25

On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> > At 16:25 11/01/97 +0000, you wrote:
> > >
> > >>  I rate this a fine start.  Lets see more.
> > >That's 5 out of 10!  Keep the thumbs coming!
> > A few tremors at the beginning, but thus far, no major earthquakes.  I say
> > T4 is doing well now that Courtney is in charge, their web page is great,
> > and the products ar elooking better.  Clear sailing for 1997.
> 6 out of 10!  We are over the hump.

I would like to add another vote for the product.  Good Work!


Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 23:42:00 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question

Tom Lane wrote:
>
>In response to Joe Walsh's insight as to the necessity of new gamers, do
>we have anyone under 25 years old on the list?  What is the average age
>of the list.  i.e. Are we dinosaurs?


        I'm 29.

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick D. Elliott... rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca              |
|                        elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca           |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| "...an imperfect plan implemented immediately and violently |
| will always succeed better than a perfect plan."            |
|                        -Gen. George S. Patton.              |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 23:42:03 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: There's gold in that there infrastructure...(longish)

John P. Raynor wrote:

>
>This also ensures that all of the planets in the Third Imperium have the
>same "standards" - so, for example, an electrical applicance manufactured
>on one planet can be plugged into a wall socket on another planet (I would
>imagine this kind of thing would extend to everything from electronic
>character encoding sets to the diameters of nuts and bolts).  If nothing
>else, this would encourage "uplifted" planets on the frontier, whose
>infrastructures were put together will Imperial help, to trade with the
>Imperium, rather than with their non-Imperial (and thus, perhaps,
>"non-standard") neighbors...

        I was under the impression that there was a special Standards
Enforcement division of the Consumer Protection Department of the Imperial
Secret Service, whose mission statement is:

"...to suppress any manufacturers who, within the borders of the Imperium,
deviate from Imperial Standards Organization ISO 9000 standards, _by any
means neccessary_".

:)

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick D. Elliott... rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca              |
|                        elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca           |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| "...an imperfect plan implemented immediately and violently |
| will always succeed better than a perfect plan."            |
|                        -Gen. George S. Patton.              |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:53:18 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: JTAS #25

 
> I would like to add another vote for the product.  Good Work!

That makes 7 and now, 8 out of 10.  We are almost there.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:53:18 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Vote of support for CSC 

      
>         IG - well done IMHO this is a good solid supplement.


That's 9 out of 10.  Is there one more courageous soul out there?

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:02:30 -0500
From: "Falin \"Dark-Claw\"" <jhyatt@mail.wincom.net>
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe traveller jhyatt@wincom.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:18:09 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Age of Traveller Players

From my  question about the age of folks on the list, I'm getting the
idea members are not so much clustered in age, but ARE veterans of
several years(coincides with hunch.) 
 
The list isn't a good representation of Traveller players because of the
requirements to participate in it, but I do worry there aren't any
younger players coming in to generate game material when I'm 75 :)

Currently I'm 30-and feeling it.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:38:38 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question

> 
> 	Well, I'm only 21, but I don't really count. I'm this young because I
got into CT when I was REALLY young (like 12).
> 
> 	Is T4 attracting any new 12-year-old gamers anymore?

In a word: YES!!! My game has a number of 12-15 year olds; they're a lot of
fun. 

- --Rich Ostorero
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:36:32 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question

 
> In response to Joe Walsh's insight as to the necessity of new gamers, do
> we have anyone under 25 years old on the list?  What is the average age
> of the list.  i.e. Are we dinosaurs?

I know of at least one guy who's under 25. . . and it isn't me. 

FYI, I'm 37.

Victor, you can uncloak/unmask now :)

Victor is one of the Sunday Follies players and a budding gearhead. Give
him a design spec and a good design system and he _will_ crank out a great
design -- and he's sixteen or so.

I daresay that Vic is probably our token teener -- and I'm damned glad to
have him, Schalli Wheelchair of Death and all :)

- --Rich Ostorero
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 01:06:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Led Mirage <lmirage@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: Complexity and Playability

On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> One perk that I would really applaud is to have all of the systems 
> mutually interactive so that a vehicle designed in the system given 
> in CSC will be compatible and give the same type of stats as a 
> vehicle designed in the new T4 FF&S.

I guess if IG had thought about that, there wouldn't be that "Starships is
broken" fiasco. They shuld've first come up and designed with the most
detailed system, then scaled the system back for more simplicity to
accomodate SSDS and QSDS. Then everything would be more or less consistent
(Due to round offs, the final numbers might not be exact matches, but
should be close enough, anyway). The stuff in RCEG were designed with
rules from FF&S. I've checked a couple of weapons for consistency (the ACR
had a suspiciously low recoil), but they did check out. So it gave me the
confidence to use the FF&S rules. I like Greg Porter and his work, but
right now, I don't have a whole lot of confident in IG pulling off a coup
de grace like the old FF&S.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 01:16:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Led Mirage <lmirage@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: Complaints and the 5%

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Phillip McGregor wrote:

> for that), but is it too late? How many new (or *potentially* new) players
> are going to buy Starships and feel so ripped off that they'll say -- "Oh.
> I can get Star Wars RPG in *full colour* on *glossy paper* in a *decent*
> hardbound edition, and it all works, there's no huge problems that make
> vital subsystems unusable -- and its reasonably priced, too."? I suspect
> the answer will be -- LOTS.

Actually, I wonder how many new Traveller (T4) players, period. I'm under
the impression that the only people who've bought T4 were the oldtimers.
But then, the stuff's been selling well. One has to wonder, though, how
long until the lack of value in the products eventually drive off even the
oldtimers.

> 
> Is it too late to save Traveller? Don't know. But IG better do something
> *radical* to improve quality and all the areas we've been complaining about
> or they'll go the way of GDW. After all, how many people out there threw
> their hands up in disgust at MegaTraveller 1st Edition and didn't come
> back? Or at TNE? *LOTS* I suspect, or GDW would still be with us.

Never played MT. Initially, I was turned off by TNE. Virus and all that.
But one look at FF&S convinced me that TNE is the shit. The amount of
detial given was unprecedented, and I was in Gearhead heaven.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:23:20 +1000
From: PARISC@complete.com.au (Paris Conte)
Subject: RE: Age of Traveller Players

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I have just bought my first copy of T4 and I know it is the best game I  =
=20
have come across in quite a while. I have one concern though, and it is  =
=20
related to the "Age of Traveller Players".

The product seemed to be written for old players of the game. (To me  =20
anyway.) I have played RPG's since 1981 I have played many different game=
  =20
systems concerned with many different genres(Including Classic & Mega  =20
Traveller)., so I am not a newbie by any account.

T4 felt like it was written for old players. As an experiment I lent my  =
=20
copy to some younger guys (15-19) at a gaming club to see what they  =20
thought of the game. (These guys played Shadow run and Star Wars.) They  =
=20
liked the game mechanics, (although a couple of them thought it was all a=
  =20
bit complicated), but could not get a feel for the game.

I think IG had better do some work on the setting of Traveller. They are =
 =20
in danger of producing a game that only caters to old people that like to=
  =20
reminisce about the glory of the olden days. The trend of Role playing  =20
games has been to move away from complex Game mechanics and to move  =20
closer to group "story telling". Traveller is rich in stories yet to be  =
=20
told by younger players, and it would be a shame if those "Newbies" never=
  =20
got a chance to understand the beauty, and the majesty, that is  =20
Traveller.

I Am looking forward to your response, just let me get my shield ready  =20
before the flaming starts :)

Paris Conte

Parisc@complete.com.au
x=9F>"


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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #836
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 13 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 837



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Lots of complaints
Re: Melee weapons
Re: Calling Out the Ten
Re: Vote of support for CSC
Re: Age of Traveller Players
Gamers And Gearheads...
RE: Age of Traveller Players
Re: Complaints and the 5%
Re: Lots of complaints
Re: Calling Out the Ten
Re: Vote of support for CSC
Re: dragonfire.net Traveller Web Sites
Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Votes and age
TNE Robots Question
Re: Villani & Long pig
Space Opera
Re: Problems finding IG products at FLGS's
Aramis Subsector

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:56:55 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints

> 
> Now, though, I'm at a loss.  Things are much better, and getting even 
> better in the future.  Once upon a time, the IG web site was badly 
> neglected.  Now, it's becoming a great place to get product info, and 
> even to discuss the products with their new forums.

I have to agree. Look at where Trav was a year ago . . . . we could be back
_there_, folks! The Website is _nifty_.


>  CSC and Aliens have 
> much much less artwork, and none of it is sitting in the middle of the 
> design system.  And both books have a great deal of useful information 
> that referees can begin using right away. 

Especially CSC.

> Milieu 0 and First Survey 
> will be back from the printer on January 23, which means they're only a 
> month late (as opposed to Starships, which was 3 months late).  JTAS is 
> finally out, and it looks pretty good (it could use more articles, but 
> then we can fix that by sending our submissions to them).

Masive Hint, Massive Hint, Massive Hint . . . . :)

  IG will be 
> providing, free of charge, the fixes to Starships, via their web site.  
> They've improved their shipping methods.  The editing has improved 
> greatly since T4 was released.  The list of things they've done to 
> improve T4 goes on and on.
<<deletia, all of which I agree with>>
 
> I had expected that, by now folks would be more positive about T4's 
> future.  Are Ken Bearden and I the only ones who think Aliens and CSC are

> praise-worthy?

Add me to the list of supporters, Joe. I just haven't had the time to
respond in detail; I've been too busy designing the core vehicles of the
Imperial and Ardin armies and _playing Traveller_ to argue about VDS on the
List. . . . ;)

- --Rich Ostorero
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 00:00:11 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

On 01/12/97 at 08:42 PM,  "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG> said:

> > As are duelists, and it appears there is a "code duelo" in the
> > Imperium.

> For inspiration it might be worth it to hunt down a copy of GDW's _En
> Garde!_. I keep my copy at my mistress's house. ;-)

Touche, my dear Sir! Your status in my eyes, and in my lady the Queen's
eyes, has risen to great heights. 

I shall consult my copy of _En Garde!_, toot suite!

> And who knows, maybe there's even a clue in the rules regarding  jump
> drives? :-)

To continue with this theme, we'll need to use aetheral sails for our ship
propulsion, not jump drives. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 01:37:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Led Mirage <lmirage@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: Calling Out the Ten

On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> Yes, the book is a bit pricey, but the CSC is a great book of 
> equipment and rules.  Name some other game equipment books you really 
> liked and compare them to CSC.  I'd like to see where you are coming 
> from.

I think that probably because I've already have most of the TNE stuff, and
there are quite a few equipment that are repeated, but not neccessarily
explained in better detail. But CSC was one of the priciest book I've
bought so far. Here in Toronto, the cheapest you can get is cover price.
That's a lot to pay for a sourcebook. If it were cheaper, I'd have given
it 2 thumbs up, but the price brought it down to just an average.
 
> What TNE pictures are you talking about?  I want to look at the same 
> ones you did.

Off hand, hard to say specifically which ones. Among the favourites are
the covers of both the basic rule book and FF&S and RCEG. Also "Hot
Recovery" in RCEG was very good too.

I like Foss' works, too. But they just don't give me the you-are-there
feel, like some of the TNE stuff do.

> They look a lot like the sketches in some of the Battletech equipment 
> books.

I don't have any Battletech stuff (well, 'cuz I don't play battletech. I'm
not exactly into miniature wargaming). Maybe I'm just used to the TNE
illos where at least they don't look like someone just sketch the thing on
a napkin during lunch break.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:20:59 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Vote of support for CSC

Quoth Kenneth Bearden:
> That's 9 out of 10.  Is there one more courageous soul out there?

Hurrah for _both_ Aliens Archive (about time minor races got some
attention!) _and_ Central Supply Catalog, with Greg Porter's superb
mix of the technical and humorous.  (Why do all my Scouts now want
to get assigned to "cultural exchange" missions?).

And JTAS #25 looks pretty good, though I have yet to dig in.  Probably
time to get off my duff and write an article or two as well.  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga  user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 01:44:43 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Age of Traveller Players

Back when I did my survey of Traveller players prior to the release
of T4, the average year people started playing Traveller worked out to
something like 1982--that was 15 years ago.  Now assuming that the
average starting age was 17 (and it was probably older), that would mean
the average age of Traveller players prior to T4 was around 32.

   My guess would be that the average age was lowered somewhat after the
release of T4, given that 30,000 copies of it sold.  However, I would
argue that the average age is probably still above 30, and that does not
bode well for Traveller's future.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:49:40 -0600 (CST)
From: danger@visi.com
Subject: Gamers And Gearheads...

Yes, it's G&G, the new game from Imperium Games.... :)

I'm 26, but I played my first "Black Book" game when I was 12 or 13 (can't
remember exactly).  In terms of complexity, I program computers for a
living and I majored in Math/Physics in college.  So what I see as a
reasonable design sequence is going to be skewed in comparison to what the
rest of the Universe thinks.

I think that the overall point is well taken -- There's a fine balance
between Space Opera and Hard SF.  Traveller has been balancing on that
edge for nigh on 20 years now.  Personally, I thought the more "abstract"
design sequences for Striker/High Guard/Robots were good models.  They
provided a feel of technical realism without over-alienating those with no
desire to know about the Jump Grid and the Zucchai crystals.  On the other
hand, DGP's SOM was a thing of beauty.

I think, however, that there's room for products of both types.

In point of fact, I've been missing the "big string of numbers" a la High
Guard for awhile.  I thought it was a great idea for providing the
capabilities of a ship in a compact format.  <Shrug>

I'm starting to ramble aimlessly, so I'll let this drop for now...

- -- 
danger@visi.com		Dane "Danger" Johnson
PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
http://www.visi.com/~danger/index.html
"Oh, look.  A Decoy!"     -- Pinky

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 00:42:56 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: RE: Age of Traveller Players

Folks, 

I hate to think I'm the greybeard here, but I may be.  I'm 45. 

I started playing wargames when Avalon Hill was a new company. I was a
charter subscriber to "Strategy & Tactics."  I was roleplaying *before*
D&D. I bought Chainmail, for heaven's sake. <g>  I've been with Traveller
since the beginning, and I've never worried about it going away because
I'll keep using it whether it's published or not.

Oh, and JTAS arrived in the mail yesterday, and I've read most of it. It's
good! 

CSC hasn't shown up here yet, but I'm planning on buying it when it makes
it to my town.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 01:57:04 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Complaints and the 5%

Christopher M. Russell writes:

>Megtraveller was not the downfall of GDW, it lost out because it didn't
>follow up on the sucesses it had. I hear much about TNE stuff, and sold well
>from what I understand.

   MegaTraveller was not the "magic bullet" but it certainly was one of
the nails in GDW's coffin.  GDW's sales went down after the release of
MegaTraveller, and never recovered.

   As for the 5% "whine factor", we should also remember the 5%
"cheerleader factor".  There is always going to be a percentage of the
population that's going to love anything so long as it has the Traveller
name on it, no matter how badly edited it is, no matter how much the
layout resembles an abstract painting, and no matter how much they are
overcharged for it.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 02:52:30 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints

> Add me to the list of supporters, Joe. I just haven't had the time to
> respond in detail; I've been too busy designing the core vehicles of the
> Imperial and Ardin armies and _playing Traveller_ to argue about VDS on the
> List. . . . ;)


And that makes 10!

Kenneth.
(with all 20 thumbs raised in the air).

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 02:52:31 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Calling Out the Ten

 
> I think that probably because I've already have most of the TNE stuff, and
> there are quite a few equipment that are repeated, but not neccessarily
> explained in better detail. But CSC was one of the priciest book I've
> bought so far. Here in Toronto, the cheapest you can get is cover price.
> That's a lot to pay for a sourcebook. If it were cheaper, I'd have given
> it 2 thumbs up, but the price brought it down to just an average.

I knew you weren't as against CSC as you sounded.  I've got the TNE 
stuff too, but it is good to have the T4 stuff, and I'd remark that 
there are many more different types of equipment than in TNE.  TNE's 
guide was basically an expanded version of the same equipment used in 
both CT and MT.

One thing I like about CSC is that they are actually giving us new 
equipment and rules.

Did you check out the vacuum exposure rules?  It is funny in a space 
game, especially one like Traveller, but they have never, to my 
knowledge, published official vacuum exposure rules like this.

I like.  I like.

  
> > What TNE pictures are you talking about?  I want to look at the same 
> > ones you did.
> 
> Off hand, hard to say specifically which ones. Among the favourites are
> the covers of both the basic rule book and FF&S and RCEG. Also "Hot
> Recovery" in RCEG was very good too.

I'll drag these out and look at them tomorrow, but I do remember the 
FF&S and RCEG covers.  They have that cartooney feel, and what's 
with all the red colors.  Everything's a shade of orange, red, pink, 
and the like.

>
> I don't have any Battletech stuff (well, 'cuz I don't play battletech. I'm
> not exactly into miniature wargaming). Maybe I'm just used to the TNE
> illos where at least they don't look like someone just sketch the thing on
> a napkin during lunch break.

LOL.  I'm afraid I'd have to agree with you here.  As we all have 
stated before, a lot of Foss' sketches are crap.  I just said that I 
thought they were getting better in CSC--that I can accept some of 
them.

Really, I'd like the equipment illos to be more like DGP illustrated 
them in many of their works.  Those were the best.  Remember the old 
equipment sheet they came up with?  I loved those things, and I'd 
like to see those for T4.

Give IG a break.  They are trying, and the stuff is getting better.  
Like you, I expected T4 to be incredible from the word go.  I keep 
citing Star Wars, but that's only because I think it is an 
exceptionally produced game.  Everything that they put out is useful, 
well produced, and priced right.

I don't know why IG can't be that way, but the fact is I'm a 
Traveller fan.  I want to see it succeed.

And I'm willing to give them a pat on the back and an "E" for effort 
for these new products.  When I looked at Starships, I got angry and 
slipped it in my Traveller box.  I'll probably only open it again a 
couple of times again--like that other disaster, MT's Fighting Ships.

The difference with these new supplements is, although I can see many 
ways for them to be better, they've got that old Traveller yearning 
going inside me.  I want to read them and incorporate some of this 
stuff in my campaign.  That, in of itself, makes these three products 
a step in the right direction.  

And I'm hoping that it will just keep getting better.

 Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 02:52:30 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Vote of support for CSC

> Quoth Kenneth Bearden:
> > That's 9 out of 10.  Is there one more courageous soul out there?
> 
> Hurrah for _both_ Aliens Archive (about time minor races got some
> attention!) _and_ Central Supply Catalog, with Greg Porter's superb
> mix of the technical and humorous.  (Why do all my Scouts now want
> to get assigned to "cultural exchange" missions?).


This is just like Spinal Tap.

"Where do you go after 10?"

"Eleven, man, eleven."

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:13:15 -0800
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran?= Damberg <damberg@hem.passagen.se>
Subject: Re: dragonfire.net Traveller Web Sites

I don't know when dragonfire will be back online but my traveller pages
can now also be found at:

http://enterprise.hb.se/~goeran/traveller/

and The Traveller Webring page can be found at:

http://enterprise.hb.se/~goeran/traveller/webring.html


goeran
Ethan Henry wrote:
> 
> Hello to those with sites at Dragonfire.net
> (ie. The person running the Traveller Web Ring)
> 
> Is dragonfire dead, or what? I can't seem to get
> through and doing a traceroute there seemed to take me through
> a router in the dorm of some small american college...
> 
> anyways, any idea when your site might be back up?
> 
> Ethan
> ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 05:39:39 EST
From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton)
Subject: Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question

Tom Lane wrote:
>
>In response to Joe Walsh's insight as to the necessity of new gamers, do
>we have anyone under 25 years old on the list?  What is the average age
>of the list.  i.e. Are we dinosaurs?


        I'm 27.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:47:59 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

JayStr wrote :
> That anyone may not WANT to get trained, may in
> fact just want to roll up their sleeves and work =96 or, in this case,
> play =96 seems not to occur to you. Neither does the blindingly obvious
> truth that it is easier for 99% of humanity to LOOK THINGS UP than to
> FIGURE THINGS OUT. Especially when you're in the midst of learning
> something unfamiliar and new.

This is true and not true in the same time. This depends on you character.
Personnaly, i'm the chief Engineer of a small starship. My job is to make
everything going right. There is an other character who don't know anything
about Technical architecture. She only uses the Communcators. This technical
Arcitecture helps me a lot for role playing my Engineer. There is lots of
ideas, and lots of ways to use them.

Using the same reasonment, you could have said. Hey, you know, why creating
such a background for character as 99% (I hope not) just want to go to
adventure (roll dices)?=20

The Technical architecture as the character background helps the player for
role playing. If the ships were just LEGO (word used by another TML
subscriber which i agree with) they would have less soul and less subject to
speak of. As an engineer, i took time to explain the heplar propulsor ro
this commando girl which knows nothing about starships. This is ROLE=
 PLAYING.

The other point, already explained by several suibsciber, is the proundness.
In regular RPG (those who don't have FFS like source books). You pick up
equipement, just like in a store. There is no "life" in those small parts of
your character. My character has a self made ETC gun, it has an history, it
is quite unique. If i find another, this won't be by chance. This gun is not
MORE destrctive, it is just different from what you could find in the RC. I
had already got a non standart gun in a regular RPG. This gun had to be MORE
destructive to have a significant interest for me.

That is to say, if you build you own equipment, you don't wnat to loose it,
you could risk your life for it. Again this Technical complexity add
roleplaying. Traveller is a "always moving" game, as players move from world
to world, so they can't have so many contacts as in other "sedentary games"
(i.e. WW Vampire game). In this game, i've noticed that characters can risk
there life for what they have which is in that case mainly contacts and
heaven (home sweet home). In traveller, contacts (other than the ship crew)
are much rare and less strong (as contacts are not frequently met). So
equipment is a very important point filling the gap.

If you don't think about that, the players will become what we call BROSBILL
in France (i don't know the english expression in English) which represents
the "Skill Only character with Very Small Background and Very Destructive
weaponery Just to Get Maximum of Xp". This is the ultimate non roleplaying
but dice rolling player (aaaaaarrrgghhhhh!)


> As far as game complexity goes=85 well=85.. how do you KNOW that an NPAW
> needs a separate homopolar generator, which must be computed and
> included all by itself? Have you built one lately=85.?
>=20
> You guys are debating the minutae of the physical
> performance and properties of things that don't even exist; and by
> blithely insisting these 'findings' be included in any upcoming set of
> rules, you're inflicting this nit-picky level of detail on everybody
> else. And you're so wrapped up in this cozy superhard-SF cocoon that you
> apparently don't even realize that you're actually just arguing over
> bullshittium. To build a successful game design system, it is not
> necessary to give everybody a crash course in the True Nature of
> Bullshittium.

It's not a "superhard-SF cocoon", as for me Traveller is not a true Hard SF
game but it's the most advanced in that direction (maybe there are others,
but i don't know them). It has build an architecture base uppon possibility
which may be false (most of them in fact). Just take a look at the 30's
vision of the 80's and you'll get a hard laugh. This trueness of the FFS
vision is not the point. It has imagine a vision which was encapsulated in a
system by which it could be described and manipulted.

If you find FFS too complex you don't have to use it. In our group, only
three out of 5 have open the FFS book, and only two have created some
personnal equipement. the other just took some existing equipement even if
they contains some mistakes regarding FFS.=20




Now I agree that FFS has many "dark points" which are not clear. But in my 9
year RPG experienced i have never seen such dense a source book, every page
is interesting and containt information. It could have been more developped
and more explained. Nothing is perfect, neither am i. And you ?

- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 02:49:53 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Votes and age

As long as folks are giving their opinions I'll throw in mine.

I much prefer the SSDS to the QDS (especially since QDS stops at TL 12), 
but other than that the rest of Starships is only useful for kindling.
[2 on a 1-10 scale]

I simply don't like AA, I loathe the art, and around half the aliens are
dull or uninteresting.  Worm people and giant, animate trees are pretty
stupid ideas.  Challenge the did a Contact article on the Ahetaowa (first
described in Robots as "a race of intelligent animated plants".  The art
and description in the articles revealed a fascinating sessile species
that looked and sounded both interesting and biologically plausible.  AA
gave us "Ents for Traveller", yuck.  

The drawings of the Graytch look amazingly stupid and unlikely (large
arboreal critters with feet ending in points?).  To make matters even
worse the stats given in the book make no sense. A species is described as
twice a strong as a human and has 2D6 for Strength.  I miss Digest Group... 
[3 on a 1-10 scale]

CSC is another matter:  I don't like much of the art (The dune-buggy ATV 
in particular) but there isn't that much of it, and the rest of the book 
is *very* good, congrats to Greg Porter.
[8 on a 1-10 scale]

JTAS looked like a very amateur effort with bad art.  I'm not saying the 
articles were bad, they weren't, the layout and design we simply very 
bad, hopefully this will improve.
[5 on a 1-10 scale]

FYI I'm 35 (oh goody, time to make my first aging roll...)


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 03:38:17 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: TNE Robots Question

Hi-

Well, I've been unable to find a copy of Vampire Fleets, so I'll ask a
favor of folks here.  I'm playing around with some robot ideas using CSC
and would like to add in robot brains.  When I flipped through (and
foolishly didn't buy) Vampire Fleets when it came out I remember seeing a
table of Robot brains (Int, Cost TL, power requirements, volume, and mass)
in the robot design section at the end of the book.

Could some astoundingly kind soul email me the info off this table?

Many Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 02:55:32 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Villani & Long pig

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Vilani & Long Pig...
> 
> >On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> >         After the Ancients abandoned them, the Vilani basically     
> >found themselves living in an envronment where much of the life was  
> >not ideal for supporting Terran-based life, and where in fact some of 
> >the stuff that was edible required considerable processing to make it 
> >so.
> >         Wouldn't this mean, therefore, that one of the best sources 
> >of protein loose on Vland would be... other Vilani?  I'd suspect that 
> >a lot of early Vilani cuisine would have consisted of
> > Those-jerks-from-the-next-valley-over stew...
> 
>         Hmmmm...Logical, as the pointy eared one would say. The 
>problem with this is you start to transmit and concentrate things like 
>'mad vilani disease'; things like BSE and Kreutzfeld-Jakobs disease are 
>transmitted that way. But perhaps this was one of the functions of the
> Shugilli...preparing the Other other white meat to minimize this 
>threat.
> 
> It's hard to say. As far as we know, any case of regularly practiced
> cannibalism in humans has been restricted to strictly ritual forms, 
>Alferd Packer and the odd soccer team aside.  

	You havent read much Central American history, have you ?  
Cannibilism was endemic in precolumbian Mesoamerican cultures & many 
modern anthropologists suggest it was due to there lack of other meat.
Marvin Harris has written an excellent book on this subject whose name I 
can't remember.

	Vilani & Vargr says (pg 16)
	 "The individuals who developed and held the food conversion 
secret were called shugiilii (the closest Galanglic word is miller).  
The shugilli ultimately developed hundreds of "mystical" food conversion 
techniques, and became looked upon more as a shaman than as a cook.  
Since almost no food was edible without some treatment, they became 
powerful members of society.

	Our ancestors had no need for medically oriented shaman.  The 
alienness of Vland biology was reciprocal: predators could not eat 
humans, parasites found no nutrition in our bodies, and bacteria or 
viruses could not invade and take over.  There were few human diseases. 
 Even surgery was relatively free from the dangers of infection." 

	Since the shugilii kept there food conversion methods secret the 
Vilani might not have known they were cannibals.  The food conversion 
secret for human flesh may have just been "Serve well done."  Since this 
also states that few medical problems existed I believe this indicates 
that cannabilism related diseases were nonexistant.  On the other hand 
few diseases is not NO diseases & these could have been one of the few.
Of course once the Vilani encountered people with lots of diseases 
(Solomani) they may have had to change there diets.  Yet another Vilani 
complaint against the Solomani....

	Cannabalism among the Third Imperium is cannonical however 
(unless this is one of the things Marc Miller is taking out to make 
Traveller wholesome (T4 pg 5)).
	
	In World Builders Handbook (pgs75-77) there are some tables for 
generating miscellaneous local customs.  Each planet has 1d6 customs (an 
average of 3.5) & a total of 216 different customs are listed.  This 
means that each planets odds of_not_being cannibals are (215/216)^3.5
or 98.39%.  Thus 1.61% of the planets in the Imperium will be (at least 
partially) cannabilistic.  With about 11,000 planets in the Imperium 
(circa 1100) there will be about 177 with cannabilism present.  In  half 
the cases the custom will be practiced by the entire poulation & in the 
other half of the cases it will be practiced by a subgroup.  These 
cultural practices tables are not affected by any of the planets stats 
so we cannot say that cannabilism is only practiced on primitive 
planets. 

	I therefore suggest that some of this Imperial cannabilism may 
be a holdover from Vilani cannabilism as practiced in the First 
Imperium.  I realize that some of you may be uncomfortable with the 
notion of cannabilism in the Imperium but we need to remember that 
Imperial culture varys widely & is not allways like that of late 20th 
century Westen culture.

	I am interested in the subject of cannabilism in the Imperium 
because my current player charecter, Fred Grandy (we are playing the 
Traveller Adventure using T4) is a cannibal.  When I generate a player I 
always like to generate ther home planet using World Builders Handbook. 
This helps me to play a better charecter.  When I generated the customs 
for his (randomly chosen) homeworld of Dojodo (C512311-7 S Lo Ni Ic 710 
Im M5V / 3233 Spinward Marches (Jump 1 from Mora)) the first custom I 
came up with was cannabilism.  I thought this was in poor taste (no pun 
intended) & rerolled it, when cannabilism came up again on the reroll I 
figured that the dice had spoken & went with it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:54:27 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Space Opera

I know this is off topic -- but bear with me a minute, please!

Several people have, over the last three or four months, commented to me
that "Space Opera" (yes, that's where my tagline comes from, I'm one of
*those* designers) is being reprinted. Or, more accurately, thay have
"heard" that it is.

Well, that's news to me! Does anyone have any actual *source* for this
"rumour"? *I* would like to know!

Also, assuming that it *is* true, does anyone have a *current* address for
FGU/Scott Bizar -- the last one I have is the old NY one which I know is
years and years out of date. I understand he owns and operates a Game store
in Arizona, Phoenix, Tucson, Flagstaff, somewhere like that, but I don't
know where.

I ask because, *if* he *is* reprinting it, and is simply *reprinting* it
(i.e. not getting someone to do a complete rewrite, as FGU owns the *name*
but not the actual *rules* or *background*), then I'd like to know as I
would be expecting some royalties!!! (Eventually, of course :-)

I don't think its likely that any of this is more than rumour as Scott
always struck me as an honest type of guy, and, since he hasn't contacted
me (and *I* haven't moved in the last 20 years!), I guess it must be just
that, a rumour ... but, hey, I'd really like to *know*!

Any information would be appreciated. Thanks in advance -- and, of course,
reply to me rather than the TML to save wasted bandwidth.

Thanks for bearing with me.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:02:17 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Problems finding IG products at FLGS's

Peter J. Miller wrote:
> 
> A quick note, I'd vouch for Quincy Koziol as a trusted online seller as
> well, as his prices are quite reasonalbe, even for out of print stuff, plus,
> he gives a 30% off retail price for new items.
> 

And I, also, back this up. Quincy has done a great job for me in the
past and I'll continue doing business with him. BTW, he's got
a copy of Fifth Frontier War for sale...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:21:06 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Aramis Subsector

Ijust bought the Traveller Adventure, read it and liked it!
Now my question, are there any othere adventures or background 
information that are set in the Aramis subsector in other sources 
that i should know about?

Thanks for your help,
Just my 2 EuroCents,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #837
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 13 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 838



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Age of TML members
Re: Starships is broken, too! 
My buying schedule for T4
IMP Games Homepage
Re: Lots of complaints
Questions about QSDS design (Free Trader)
Re: Joe Heck's WWW site in arcane magazine
Re: Villani & Long pig
Age of TML members
Re: Age of TML members
No, It's not traveller any more....
Re: JTAS
Attention all Duelists!
Re: Bad Design systems
age of players
Ken Whitman - About Pricing
Re: Bad Design systems
Re: Age of TML members : JTAS vote

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:19:01 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Age of TML members

Well, what can I say, I'm 42 (43 in May) -- and I've been gaming (S&T
boardgames) since 1970! Makes me feel old even thinking about it.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:16:39 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Re: Starships is broken, too! 

> From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
> To: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
> Subject: RE: Starships is broken, too! 
> Date: Monday, January 13, 1997 11:34 AM
> 
> In Reply to Your Message of Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10: 29:02 +1100
> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:34:46 -0500
> From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@strauss2.udel.edu>
> : Its not that the designed ships don't match with the results from the
> : Starships rules, its that *Starships* can't be used to design the
"classic"
> : ships. If you use Starships you get ships that are *twice* as expensive
as
> : they should be according to canonical sources.
> 
> They can be used to design the classic ships.  You just can't compare
> the prices between the systems.  But that's always been the case with
> Traveller.  As for touting the old sources as canonical, I think that
> can make people a little narrow-minded.  Another approach is that of DGP
> where older material when it conflicts with current material is invalid,
> and the current material is the "canononical" reference.

Well, OK, I can live with that. Unfortunately, there is a logical follow
through that stuffs it up -- *either* you give all the PCs *TWICE AS MUCH
MONEY* in character creation (its probably not necessary to double the
price of personal level items), then there is no way that you can justify
the increases -- after all, it's hard enough to see a Merchant character
with a Free Trader worth 40 MCr, its *twice* as difficult to see them with
one worth *double* that (whcih is what we get with Starships). Doesn't make
sense. Its much more sensible to assume that the prices in Starships are
the problem and reduce everything accordingly.

> : But the point is that HG still worked. MTrav never did, as far as I
could
> : see (of course, I really couldn't be bothered with a "Step 31 - Step
#14 -
> : Step #3 - Step #2 - Step #12" sort of design sequence), and TNE was
> : actually *worse* than MTrav. Niether ever worked for me -- nor did they
for
> : most of the gaming public. I don;t mind using 3G^3 for the simple
reason
> : that the design sequences are just that, *sequential*, they are simple
to
> : use, and even a non-gearhead like me finds them easy to understand and
> : emplace. MTrav and FF&S were simply unusable for me -- and for most
people
> : not on this list, I suspect.
> 
> I never had a problem with MT or FFS, once I got the hang of them.  I do
> think that the learning is a tad too steep for either of those products.
> I still stand by QSDS and SSDS becasue they are much more intuitive and
> easier than the aforementioned systems.  And don't worry, many people on
> this list also found MT and FFS unusable.

Exactly. There are very few people out there who care enough about the
"bullshittium" aspects of the game to make something like FF&S worthwhile
for a *mass market*. We must *not* go the way of FF&S again if the game is
to survive and grow -- despite the moans and groans from the few and
unrepresentative techies (flame retardant underwear *on*!)

QSDS is OK, but its not even as good in *some* ways as HG (not that I'm
saying HG was perfect -- *it* would need to be updated for use with T4
anyway), and Starships is, as I still say, a bad joke -- one that will
cause a lot of lost sales for T4.

> But that's not the design system's fault, it's IG's.  However, I do get
> the feeling that they are getting their act together.

Like their email newsletter asking if we poor suckers who bought the error
riddled T4 Main Rulebook would *now* like to buy a "new improved" second
edition. Sorry. Didn't do it for MTrav, T2300, or (was there one?) for
TNE/FF&S; am unlikely to do it for T4. I have a limit to how much I can be
suckered; sorry.

> : And still completely unusable for most people because it has the same
> : nonsequential design "sequences" that FF&S and MTrav had. How many
people
> : like me bought it because GV#1 was so good found out too late that it
was
> : like that? I personally will only be using the GV#1 *sequences* with
some
> : of the extra detail from the GV#2 book -- GV#2 by itself is so complex
as
> : to be unusable. Is simply don't have the time to create a Spreadsheet
(and
> : don't really know how -- or care to learn) to make it simpler. I think
SJ
> : have lost the plot with this product even tho it will sell well based
on
> : the rep of GV#1. Thats my opinion, FWLIW.
> 
> Sometimes things have to be done in an itterative process.  It's not
> pretty, but it could be worse.  I don't think that SJ will lose any
> customers over this product because it's what their customers were
> asking for.  The big plus is that this product is also comaptible with
> GURPS Robots and will be compatible with GURPS Mecha.

But the problem is that GV#1 *WORKED* ... *AND* it was a simple
step-by-step process. GV#2 is unusable in the same way FF&S is; it requires
a g*****n spreadsheet to be usable. OK. *I* have Excel -- but I wouldn't
have a clue how to program it (it was part of the MS Office Package and,
what can I say, as a teacher I got a better price on it than most
*ordinary* people will), and, you know what? I don't ever even want to
learn how! I'm a historian and english teacher, not a engineering or maths
one -- and I don't want to be!

Look, Greg Porter did the right thing with 3G^3. Step by step *sequential*
design sequences -- and, yes, despite the formulae I don't mind using it --
 *AND* he made available a *very* professionally produced Spreadsheet
program that mechanises it for a modest cost. T4 needs to do the former and
would be well advised to do the latter -- and include it in the cost of the
product, if necessary.

> 
> : yes, and if only they'd gotten Dream Pod 9 or Greg to design the new
> : Traveller *game system* we wouldn't be having this "discussion". (To be
> : fair, I don't mind the non-design aspects of the system -- Tasks,
Combat et
> : al -- even tho it is a little dated).
> 
> Lot's of ifs.  Let's just hope they've learned from their mistakes.

Like someone said "If only* are two of the saddest words in the english
language ... lets hope we don't have to go "If only IG had ... " sometime
all to close in the future!

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:27:12 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: My buying schedule for T4

I think that tha wisest move is not to buy any more rules, as i 
already use a working CT/MT mongrel and i feel that ImpGames is 
lacking new input in the rules department that would really be worth 
my money. 
However that doesn't mean, T4 is dead for me, it's just the rules!
All background and Campaign info is still on my shopping list and 
will remain there for the future!
I am already looking forward to AA and M:0, since they are BOUGHT as 
soon as they hit germany!
See, there aren't only complainers over here (no offence!)!
Just my 2 EuroCents,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:29:03 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: IMP Games Homepage

Seen it, Like it! (lots, in fact!)
Just a question: What are the special Citizens of the I. Services?)
Are they worth joining for?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:49:10 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints

On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Rich Ostorero wrote:

> Add me to the list of supporters, Joe. I just haven't had the time to
> respond in detail; I've been too busy designing the core vehicles of the
> Imperial and Ardin armies and _playing Traveller_ to argue about VDS on the
> List. . . . ;)

There's the answer Ken Bearden and I were looking for!  Most of the 
people that like T4 are too danged busy *playing* the game to argue about 
it.  I shoulda figured that one out for myself. =)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:51:00 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Questions about QSDS design (Free Trader)

As a preliminary to an attempt to work out some consistent rules for owning
and operating starships I've had a go at reverse-engineering the Free-Trader
in MMT (p. 102). Its stats are supposedly:

Tons 200	Volume 2800		Cost MCr30.75
Crew 4		Passengers H/M  6
		Passengers L   20
Cargo 75.9	Controls: Civilian standard	TL 12
8  Size rating		1 Jump Rating
0  Fire Control Rating	1 G Rating/Thrusters
L  Battery 1 - 1,0,0,0	1 Power Plant Rating
L  Battery 2 - 1,0,0,0  20.7 Fuel Rating/Scoop/Refine
			1A 3P 0J Sensor Rating
			0 Armor		6 Strucure

The figures I arrive at are:

Tons 200	Volume 2800		Cost MCr37.275
Crew 7		Passengers H/M  6
		Passengers L   20
Cargo 63.9	Controls: Civilian standard	TL 12
8 Size Rating		1 Jump Rating
0  Fire Control Rating	1 G Rating/Thrusters
L  Battery 1 - 1,0,0,0	1 Power Plant Rating
L  Battery 2 - 1,0,0,0  20.9 Fuel Rating/Scoop/Refine
			1A 3P 0J Sensor Rating
			0 Armor		6 Strucure

Here's my calculations. Could anyone with experience with the system point
out where I go wrong?

			Volume	Power	Cost	Area	Crew
Hull 200 T Box S	 189.6	-54.6	 8.8	832.0	   - .
Jump Drive 1 (2%)	  -4.0	    -	 1.2	 -1.3	 0.1  :
Maneuver 1G thruster	  -4.0  -56.0	 1.0     -1.0	 0.1  : 
TL12 75 Mw Power Plant	  -2.7	+75.0	 7.5	-75.0	 0.1   > 0.4 Engineer
TL12 100 MW Power Plant	  -3.6 +100.0	10.0   -100.0	 0.1  :
Engineering Work Station  -0.5	    -	   -	    -      -  :
Jump fuel (10%)		 -20.0      -	   -	    -	   -  :
Power plant fuel	  -0.9	    -	   -	    -	   -  :
10 T Fuel purifier	 -24.0   -5.0	 0.1	    -	   - .
							     .
TL12 Civ. std. Controls   -1.7	 -1.3	 9.2	 -0.3	 2.0  :
TL12 Basic Sensors	  -0.3  -11.1	 6.8	-12.4	 0.4  :
TL 12 Improved Com	   0.0	-10.6	 0.3   -101.0	 0.4   > 2.8 Elec. Crew
2 Work Stations		  -2.0	    -	   -	    -	   -  :
Bridge			  -2.0	    -	   -	    -	   -  :
							     .
2 Laser batteries 1,0,0,0 -6.0	-26.6	 2.8	-20.0	 2.0     2 Gunners

7 large staterooms	 -28.0	    -	 0.7	    -	 0.9 .   
6 small staterooms	 -12.0	    -	 0.3	    -	 0.1  :> 1.0 Stewards
20 low berths		 -20.0	    -    1.0	    -	 0.0 .

Total:			  65.9	  9.8	49.7	521.0	   -

Note about the crew: It should be 1 Command, 2 Maneuver, 1 Electronics, 
1 Engineer, 2 Gunnery, 1 Steward, and 2 Medical (The 20 low passengers alone
require 1 full medic; the passenger and crew requires a fraction of a medic, 
and there is no rule about rounding down for medical crew), except for the
special rule that a 200 T ship can be operated by a crew of 2. That reduces
the crew to 2 Command cum Maneuver cum Electronics cum Engineers, 2 Gunners,
1 Steward, and 2 Medics.

Incidentally, here is my suggestion for a Free Trader: Drop the High
passengers; two Mid passengers beat one High passenger any day. Drop the
Low passengers; they take up 1 T of cargo space, which will net you Cr1000
with no overhead and cost you overhead plus the cost of having a medic.
Reduce the fuel purification plant to 1 T capacity; It takes you 10 hours
to reach the 100 diameter limit of a small Gas Giant and 18 hours to reach
that of a large one; spending 20 hours to refine your fuel seems a
reasonable compromise with the lost cargo space a plant takes up.

Enterpreneur Class Free-Trader

Tons 200	Volume 2800		Cost MCr36.225
Crew 6		Passengers M  6
Cargo 113.5	Controls: Civilian standard	TL 12
8 Size Rating		1 Jump Rating
0  Fire Control Rating	1 G Rating/Thrusters
L  Battery 1 - 1,0,0,0	1 Power Plant Rating
L  Battery 2 - 1,0,0,0  20.9 Fuel Rating/Scoop/Refine
			1A 3P 0J Sensor Rating
			0 Armor		6 Strucure

			Volume	Power	Cost	Area	Crew
Hull 200 T Box S	 189.6	-54.6	 8.8	832.0	   - .
Jump Drive 1 (2%)	  -4.0	    -	 1.2	 -1.3	 0.1  :
Maneuver 1G thruster	  -4.0  -56.0	 1.0     -1.0	 0.1  : 
TL12 75 Mw Power Plant	  -2.7	+75.0	 7.5	-75.0	 0.1   > 0.4 Engineer
TL12 100 MW Power Plant	  -3.6 +100.0	10.0   -100.0	 0.1  :
Engineering Work Station  -0.5	    -	   -	    -      -  :
Jump fuel (10%)		 -20.0      -	   -	    -	   -  :
Power plant fuel	  -0.9	    -	   -	    -	   -  :
1 T Fuel purifier	  -2.4   -0.5	 0.1	    -	   - .
							     .
TL12 Civ. std. Controls   -1.7	 -1.3	 9.2	 -0.3	 2.0  :
TL12 Basic Sensors	  -0.3  -11.1	 6.8	-12.4	 0.4  :
TL 12 Improved Com	   0.0	-10.6	 0.3   -101.0	 0.4   > 2.8 Elec. Crew
4 Work Stations		  -2.0	    -	   -	    -	   -  :
Bridge			  -2.0	    -	   -	    -	   -  :
							     .
2 Laser batteries 1,0,0,0 -6.0	-26.6	 2.8	-20.0	 2.0     2 Gunners

1 large stateroom	  -4.0	    -	 0.1	    -	 0.1 .   
11 small staterooms	 -22.0	    -	 0.5	    -	 0.3  :> 0.4 Stewards

Total:			  61.9	 14.3	48.3	521.0	   -

Crew: 2 operations crew, 2 gunners, 1 steward, 1 medic.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:08:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Joe Heck's WWW site in arcane magazine

Scott M Galliand said:
> One of the first sections I usually look at is the arcane on-line page. 
> It highlights five WWW sites "you can't afford to miss."  In this issue
> (#14), there was a favorable quick review if Joe Heck's site, complete
> with picture.  It's only about a paragraph or so, but it's a very nice
> review.

Well Hot Damn!

That's really great! Now I have to go get a copy of the Magazine!

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:32:39 -0800
From: Eric Nolan <ericno@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Re: Villani & Long pig

>>means that each planets odds of_not_being cannibals are (215/216)^3.5
>>or 98.39%.  Thus 1.61% of the planets in the Imperium will be (at least 
>>partially) cannabilistic.  With about 11,000 planets in the Imperium 
>>(circa 1100) there will be about 177 with cannabilism present.  In  half 
>>the cases the custom will be practiced by the entire poulation & in the 
>>other half of the cases it will be practiced by a subgroup.  These 
>>cultural practices tables are not affected by any of the planets stats 
>>so we cannot say that cannabilism is only practiced on primitive 
>>planets. 
>
>Of course cannibalism can take many forms.  Some of these planets are almost
>certainly recycling the dead into food substances ('Soylent green is
>people!'), rather than burying or burning them.  So where a low tech cannibal
>may stick joint of neighbour into the stew a high tech'er is more likely to
>be simply purchasing protein supplement 14.
>
>In other cases the cannibalism may not be a major food source but a part of
>some traditional or religious function.  Executed criminals may be consumed
>to symbolise complete annihilation of their person, some sort of pay back to
>society or to further punish and shame their families.  Respected members of
>society or family members might be consumed to symbolise love, eternal
>togetherness, rememberance or respect.
>These cases might all be only nominally cannibalism, with symbolic wafers
>containing some element of the body being eaten.
>
>Another possibility is the consumption of something which has been discarded.
> Like the placenta after the birth of a child.  Also don't forget the minor
>races.  There are many more possibilities for non-lethal cannibalistic
>behaviour if you consider them.  Discarding skins (like snakes) is the first
>one that springs to mind.
>
>>came up with was cannabilism.  I thought this was in poor taste (no pun 
>>intended) & rerolled it, when cannabilism came up again on the reroll I 
>>figured that the dice had spoken & went with it.
>
>The above suggestions allow the cannibal result to be more local flavour and
>not a licence for your players to file their teeth and insist on eating
>everyone that they might kill, 'So as not to waste them'.  (Or maybe that's
>just my players).
>
>Eric.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 14:08:48 UT
From: "Arthur Murphy" <MycroftHolmes@msn.com>
Subject: Age of TML members

I'll be 33 in a week, and I started gaming in 1978, the first time I remember 
gaming with Traveller was 1980 (I think), my first rpg was...The Arduin 
Grimoire! (anyone remember that!)
Arthur Murphy
Mycroftholmes@msn.com
"If you can't get out of it, get into it"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:53:33 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Age of TML members

I'm looking at this TML for a week now (yeh, i'm a newbie)
and I'm 25, and playing RPG since 1988 seem to be a little baby!!!

I've been playing Traveller for a very short time, i'm not really
experienced in this game (TNE especially). But i will...

- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 01:48:04 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: No, It's not traveller any more....

It no longer feels like Traveller.
I started playing Traveller in '84, I had the black books, my players
and I loved it. But even then my players and I knew that it was not
sufficient to cover what we wanted.
I got Megatraveller in '88, I thought that it was a vast improvement,
and used it. Even before TNE came out my players and I were spotting the
problems and trying to fix them. (the hopeless starship rules among one)
In '93 (ish) I obtained TNE. From a referee's point of view it was
fantastic. My players had mixed feelings, some loved it, others thought
it was too complex, the initiative system sucked etc. In some cases I
had to agree. (I have never found an automatic fire system that was easy
to use yet)
When T4 came, I bought a copy (actually I was so excited I bought two, I
ordered one, and when I saw it in the shop, I bought it before my order
arrivedl, I could always use a spare!).
When I looked through the rules, I saw it had some good ideas, but it
seemed to lack something. I decided that I should playtest it
reguardless, so I got the usual group together and we tried it. A couple
loved the generation system, one guy hated the lack of choice. 
I pressed on....
Then the problems really started.
The task system didn't seem to work any more, my players were finding it
to easy to do things (or more to the point, to easy for the NPC's to do
things to them.)
They started ask me more questions.

"How many stateroom does a free trader have?"
I couldn't work it out from the info given, I went back to MT, to find
the values.

"What are the crew positions?"
I didn't know, I went elsewhere.

"If I buy a helmet, how does it protect me?"
It wasn't entirely obvious how a helmet fitted into the rules to me
either.

"If I fire my laser at that free trader, what damage does it do."
Err..., nothing..., I think.

"Why, It doesn't have any armour."
Yeah...

Other problems began to crop up on a regular basis. After a while my
players and I began to get very cynical (we tried to be positive...
honest)

When I bought Starships, Aliens and CSC, I didn't have that same level
of excitement that I used to have. When I read through the books I felt
a vague dissapointment. I have finally worked out what it was.

It didn't feel like Traveller any more. The Aliens were more like DND
monsters than traveller aliens.
Starships apparently, had a lot of problems, it's main problem for me
was that I couldn't be stuffed using a rules system that couldn't
generate the ships in the module, I like consistency, and it didn't have
it.
CSC was very good... but by that time I was so jaded I couldn't muster
any enthusiasm. It looks like a fantastic module, but  it's connection
to the T4 (basically broken) rules drags it down.

The construction rules are not any easier than FFS either, just
different.
And in two seperate modules.


My players and I have now started a campaing using a hybrid of MT and
TNE rules. (basically MT task system with TNE equipment). Oddly enough
using the T4 skill set and background. (I said it had some good ideas).
Characters can be generated using any system. (and converted
appropriately)

I'm still going to buy all the supplements that are produced for T4, but
I probably won't be using them.
Maybe one day I'll change my mind and start playing T4, CSC has gone a
long way towards making me feel better about the system, but at the
moment it seems to have lost that traveller feel.

Harry the Signatureless (more like depressed, but hoping to get over it)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:56:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: JTAS

On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Clint Fishback wrote:

> The first thing I noticed was the fact that they forgot to put the 
> price on the magazine.
> 
> I liked the magazine but felt that it was kinda small for $5.

Kinda small?  I was realizing what Cortney Soloman meant when he said that
at $5 each they arent making money!  I've spent more and gotten less on
comic books, computer magazines, etc.  and I think there were only about 5
pages of ads in this issue.

I'd compare this magazine to Challenge, since it's a similar format.
Challenge was what? $4.50? How many years ago?  Challenge was more pages
overall, but I usually used about 8 of those 96 pages (and that's counting
the usable "crossover" stuff).  I also think the Foss covers are better
than most of the Challenge covers were (Inside art is more debatable).
This magazine provided me with many more usable pages (in spite of the
fact that I have 101 cargos already), including the fiction, which is
easily adapted to an adventure (as long as I hide the magazine from the
players in my group). 

> Things I'd like ta see:
> Upcoming product guide
> Product reviews

I think it would be somewhat masturbatory for them to review IG products,
and out of line with the mission of supporting only Traveller to review
other RPG products.  Providing overviews and descriptions falls under the
realm of advertising, and they did that.

I was quite pleased with JTAS, and would have paid as much as $8 or $10
for it.

Pete 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:54:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Attention all Duelists!

This transmission sent by courrior boat from XTEK.

"Attention all Duelists"

Looking for meele weapons with attitude?  Try XTEK's line of quality hi-tech 
powered melee weapons.  Some of the many we have in the works are as 
follows.

<Available Now!!!> Shock Gloves, electrified mesh gloves, insulated for the 
wearer, but not for the victim!

Vibroblades, all shapes, all sizes, all frequencies!

The "Electric" Dueling sabre.  No not the "electric blades" used in low tech 
competition sport deuling, these babies pack a punch!  <ZAP!>  can we say 
cow prod?

Melee weapons with intragal gun attachment.  Useful for the spy, assasin of 
the buisnessman who wants that special, stylish, "edge".  These look like 
normal meele weapons (sword, dager, etc...)  but they have a one, maybe 2 
shot gun inside of them.  "Hey, look at the doof with the sword, lets mug 
him, <BLAM!>"  Requires concieled weapon permit on most worlds.

<Promotional gimick mode off>

Seriously folks, I have been making melee weapons using 3g^3 and they're not 
half bad.  Mind you they are useful only if in melee combat with another, or 
ambushing or assasination.  In the heat of fire combat, unless you are a 
Skywalker(or a damned good psionisist!) "noththing beats a good 
blaster(laser) at your side kid!"

The "shock gloves" are curently posted on the Planet X website.  And when 
the ISP is reconected, I will be able to put more meele weapons on it.

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:08:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Bad Design systems

> From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
> Subject: Starships is broken, too!
> 
> I've just been going through the Starships design rules and *trying* to get
> them to design a selection of the ships mentioned in them and *THEY JUST
> DON'T WORK*.
> 
> What do I mean, well, the *physical* aspects (Hull, Power Plant etc.) come
> close enough -- given that we have no idea from the pitifully inadequate
> game stats as to *exactly* what goes in them. What doesn't even come
> *close* is the prices.

OK, so I too have been making my first walk through SSDS and yes,
it doesn't match the prices that are listed in the main T4 rulebook
at all. ALSO, the armour values are TOTALLY CRACKED!!! The Mercenary
Crusier had an USD armour value of 40 (?), which would be an armor
value of 47,000+ in SSDS, which would be > 100% of the volume
available using TL 12 superdense... now, TL13+ bonded superdense could
do it, but gee, THAT ISN'T AVAILABLE!!! I think IG is having problems
deciding what TL things are at. Perhaps this is some sort of carry-over
from GDW's 'Cadillacs & Dinosaurs'.

Anyways, if I had to choose one, I'd say that the main rulebook and
Starship ship designs are cracked but SSDS is OK.

Maybe the back of the 2nd printing of the T4 rulebook should have
a pointer to TML so people could figure out how things are _really_
supposed to work.

And he also wrote:
> So, just a suggestion, lets not have too many pre-Grav vehicle 200 hour
> duration City Cars! Doesn't make sense. Just a thought.

Good idea, Phil. I tried doing a design or two using the beta VDS
and I really had no idea what a reasonable amount of fuel was.
5 hours, 10, 20? I think that per your suggestion, less is more.

Ethan
ehenry@magma.ca  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:18:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: age of players

I'm 29, been playing RPG's since 1979. The other players in my group
locally range from 27 to 34.

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:38:55 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Ken Whitman - About Pricing

On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Ken Whitman wrote:

> Sam Thomas wrote:
> 
> >Ken,
> >
> >This sounds neat but it sounds like that is the reason for the INFLATED
> >prices on CSC and AA. Other small game companies have better value for your
> 
> I would like to go down on the records stating that all price increases
> were invoked after I had official left IG.  I was always againt this and I
> too feel  the prices are to high.  $20 was pussing it.  But thats out of my
> hands now.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Ken Whitman
> 
[Following is said in a soft tone of voice]

Perhaps, Ken, it would be more appropriate for you to refrain from comment
on what are basically management decisions at IG.  You are still heavily
wrapped up in the production of materials for them, and you know as well
as I that making decisions like the one being discussed in nowhere near as
simple as "Well, $20 sounds good". 

That you might make a different decision under similar circumstances is
moot.  Only the IG staff makes those decisions, and in your position,
questioning or undermining those decisions is not really fair or good
form.

Pete

P.S.  This is not meant to be a "shut up Ken" message - just anopther
opinion.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:48:08 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Bad Design systems

Those who think FF&S is too complex and those like me who think that FF&S
is too much random formulas, factors and "a square root here, a cube there"
reasoning without any thought on the underlying principles take a look at
"GURPS Vehicles 2:ed". Very straightforward designsystem for anything but
space combat weapons and starships. All it needs is Traveller jumpdrives
and fuel use, some rulings on TL so that technologies appear when expected
and there you go.

If a designsystem that says you can design anything cannot even design a
reasonable TL-7 car then my trust in designs that I cannot reality check
vanishes and all I have is random numbers put together.
GURPS Vehicles 2:ed works, FF&S does NOT.


/Backman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:04:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Age of TML members : JTAS vote

Fine, Fine,

I'm turning 30 in Feb.

My players are ;31, 27, and (slap!) Ok!

 I'll let neveron reveal his own age.

Oh, and the *Other* campaign adds a 30 yr old and a 40-something.

And I vote thumbs up for JTAS too!

Pete

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #838
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 13 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 839



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Liking new IG products
Re: Ken Whitman - About Pricing
Various Comments
Age of Traveller Players
Re: Starships is broken, too!
Digest 831 Jay Stranahan's Comments
Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: Age of TML members
Re: Aramis Subsector
Re: Calling Out the Ten
Re: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)
Aliens (was:Re: No, It's not traveller any more....)
Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question
RE: 3G3 Hardback
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
TravWeb Central Dragonfire
RE: age of players
Re: [T97#824] Dragonfire sites
Re: JTAS
Re: Aging Gamers & Gearheads (long)
Re: Age of TML members
Questions about SSDS
Re: Aramis Subsector
Webring is down...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:04:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Liking new IG products

Well, I too will stand up and say while I though the main
rulebook was merely OK and Starships was pretty miserable
(I'm probably not going to buy it), AA and CSC seem to
be improving.

I got to look at AA this weekend (at the Worldhouse in Toronto)
and big font aside (heck, I really don't care that much about it)
it looks like a decent supplement. I would have looked at CSC and
maybe bought it even, but it was (gasp!) _sold out_! They had
a few copies in and they were already gone. 

I don't think T4 is going to be the new AD&D in the RPG market, but
I think it's being done well and it will have its place. As far
as competition with Star Wars, with the SW Trilogy being re-released
in theaters starting real soon, I doubt T4 could compete unless each
book cost $1 and offered a free lifetime subscription to Playboy
or something equally appealing to 14-or-so-year olds.

Anyways, IG is doing well enough, all things considered, IMO.

Ethan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:12:47 -0500
From: whitman@pensys.com (Ken Whitman)
Subject: Re: Ken Whitman - About Pricing

Peter Brenton Wrote:

>Only the IG staff makes those decisions, and in your position,
>questioning or undermining those decisions is not really fair or good
>form.


I appreciate your comment.  I don't want to seem like I'm winning or
undermining IG future desision because that is not my intent.  And you are
right that desisions are not simple or easy to make. I could write pages on
why dicissons are made.  Therefore, I will refrain from speeking of old IG
business and talk about the game.

However, I want to end this letter I had a good time working on Traveller,
and I relly wish that Traveller is around for my kids to play long after I
am gone.

Thanx,

Ken Whitman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:14:24 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Various Comments

Hey I have a few comments and questions...

1.  SALES

  I've thought about this and I realize that IG may be experiencing good
sales, but who is buying this stuff?  The distributors and game stores
represent most of the sales I would guess, and I wonder how much they will
buy in the future?  If as everyone says, T4 is not selling well in their
area (here in Mississippi I think 3-4 main books) then it may be that IG
will have to rethink their price in the near future.  I hope I am wrong
about it and I hope it is just a misunderstanding, but I'm afraid that the
good sales may end abruptly.

2.  IG'S IMPROVEMENT

  Having said that, I must say that those purchasers who can get past the
failure of Starships will be happy.  I can definitely see that IG has
improved with it's products, but I agree with Phil (I can't believe I said
that) to an extent.  If people pick up the main book, then Starships, I
doubt they will come back to Traveller.  I kept coming back because I don't
play any other games and I really don't want to.  Also, I was on this list
and I could see what was going on behind the scenes with Traveller and I saw
the little signs that said they were trying to fix their mistakes.  I will
gladly throw my coin in the purse of those that think IG is doing much
better, but there is still a nagging voice that is asking me, "Is it too late?"

3.  AGE

  For the record, I am 26.

4.  LOUISIANNA

  Would the kind soul who admitted that he was from Louisianna please eMail
me.  I am about 30min from Slidell and I would love to get together with
another Traveller fan to talk or play Traveller.

5.  PETER

  Peter, I lost your eMail address here at work, but I still want to be in
the game.  I have the address at home and I will mail my Character to you by
tomorrow night.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:37:15 -0400 (AST)
From: Ron Dawson <rdawson@cgc.ns.ca>
Subject: Age of Traveller Players

"Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au> wrote:
> 
> Well, what can I say, I'm 42 (43 in May) -- and I've been gaming (S&T
> boardgames) since 1970! Makes me feel old even thinking about it.

It almost make me feel young.  This lurker is 31, has been involved in
gaming (Avalon Hill, SPI, Napoleonic Miniatures, etc) since 1977, RPGs
since 1980 (AD&D and Classic Traveller).  Our group has gone through
Classic Traveller, MegaTraveller, and TNE, although we never seemed to get
very far with the latter two incarnations as Classic Traveller.  I didn't
really like the Rebellion much, but I did like the TNE era (despite some
problems with Virus). So far, I haven't been overly excited about M: 0,
but that's mostly because of lack of published material. 

Current gaming group is aged 23-31.  

Back to lurking.

- - Ron

- --------------------------------------------------------
Ron Dawson
CANSARP Support,                       Search and Rescue
Canadian Coast Guard College,                Sydney N.S.
Phone: (902) 564-3660 x1345          Fax: (902) 562-6113
Email: rdawson@cgc.ns.ca  Pager Email: pageron@cgc.ns.ca
- --------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:45:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Starships is broken, too!

"Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au> wrote:

> For example, the Type S Scout/Courier comes in at around 66 MCr (without
> discount) assuming that they don't have Exploration quality sensors, or 108
> MCr if they do. The 200 ton Free Trader comes in at around 53 MCr. The
> Broadsword Class 800 ton Mercenary Cruiser comes in at around 700 MCr.
> 
> What's wrong with these figures -- nothing, in and of themselves, *EXCEPT*
> for the fact that the figures given in T4 are 21.75 MCr, 30.75 MCr and
> 285.352 MCr, respectively.

Some of the old-timers may recognize these prices.  Unless I'm mistaken,
they're the same as the prices for these ships in Book 2 of classic, old
black-book Traveller.  Don't I recall something about a plan to use the
old Book 2 design system before QSDS was developed?

  -- Steve

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:47:18 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Digest 831 Jay Stranahan's Comments

Jay, Bravo, personally i'm a analyst/programmer by trade and i whole
heartily agree with your comments about complexity, somebody was trying to
work out how often an exclipse would occur on a moon orbiting a gas giant,
im sitting here going holy shit get me a cray super computer and and
astrophysics degree and i might contemplate looking at the problem, apart
from taking all the fun out of the game, think of the overhead in time to
work the wonderfull item out, to find that your players blow it to shit
with the first lucky shot, i'm also ex British Army and they have a very
old acronym K.I.S.S (Keep it simple, stupid) says it all really. there
thats my sixpence worth.


	
Colin Hollands - British Isles Traveller Support (Bits) member.
"Insanity is not a medical condition, its a way of life"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:15:06 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question

Gad...I'm starting to feel ancient again....I'm 39; cut my rpg teeth, as
many did, on D&D.

Hrmmm...given the topic-we-do-not-discuss, I'll just have to point out
that the LAST time the dinosaurs took a hit, it was from a big rock,
moving fast....

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Tom Lane wrote:

> In response to Joe Walsh's insight as to the necessity of new gamers, do
> we have anyone under 25 years old on the list?  What is the average age
> of the list.  i.e. Are we dinosaurs?
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:21:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:

> 
> JayStr wrote :
> If you don't think about that, the players will become what we call BROSBILL
> in France (i don't know the english expression in English) which represents
> the "Skill Only character with Very Small Background and Very Destructive
> weaponery Just to Get Maximum of Xp". This is the ultimate non roleplaying
> but dice rolling player (aaaaaarrrgghhhhh!)

	In English we call 'em "Munchkins" (or, as I prefer to call them
'Crispy Critters' as they tend to have very short, violent lives in my
games)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:42:00 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Age of TML members

At 02:08 PM 1/13/97 UT, you wrote:
>I'll be 33 in a week, and I started gaming in 1978, the first time I remember 
>gaming with Traveller was 1980 (I think), my first rpg was...The Arduin 
>Grimoire! (anyone remember that!)

AG!!  I used to love the critical hit tables in that one...

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:42:03 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Aramis Subsector

At 01:21 PM 1/13/97 MET, Volker wrote:
>Ijust bought the Traveller Adventure, read it and liked it!
>Now my question, are there any othere adventures or background 
>information that are set in the Aramis subsector in other sources 
>that i should know about?

AFAIK, Aramis wasn't used for anything other than the TA.  The lower left
hand corner showed up in Adventure 3: Twilight Peak, but very little was
said about it.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:42:11 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Calling Out the Ten

At 03:08 PM 1/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>> Hear, hear! Thanks for getting me off my duff. IG is definitely made
>> improvements. I *really* like Aliens Archive because the aliens *are*
>> alien and not just humans in a monster suit.
>
>OK, I was 1, Joe Walsh was 2, and you are 3.  Are there seven more of 
>us out there who think IG is starting to product some good products?

well I came in pretty early with good reviews of Aliens and CSC.. and I've
seen JTAS now and give it a 6 out of 10, but then I haven't submitted
anything yet, so I'm not going to talk.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:42:21 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)

At 07:43 PM 1/12/97 -0500, Brian Mays wrote:
>In a message dated 97-01-12 13:02:18 EST, you write:
>> Let's just hope that White Wolf *doesn't* have the same effect on
>>  its players... >:)=
>
>Too late . . . I live in the Haight-Ashbury district of San Francisco - the
>place is rampant with teeny-bopper vampire wannabees.  Apparently, wearing
>black, listening to The Smiths & The Cure, and whining about how alternative
>you are, and how nobody can POSSIBLY understand you, isn't enough these days.

Hey!  I live in the Sunset (19th and Quintara) maybe we can get together
sometime.  The kids in the Haight are the same as the ones who have been
coming here since 1970.. they think that the summer of Love is still
happening, and that *somebody* will feed them and give them shelter.
Welcome to real, cold, foggy world kids!

> Now you have to play live vampire games, shoot heroin, and get arrested for
>biting your girlfriend while she's semi-conscious (a true news item here,
>BTW).

My wife lost a long time friend to that damn LARP.  He now spends every
night running a Vampire game in Redwood City, with no time for anything
else.  I hate to say it, but when the game becomes your life, things are
going a bit to far.

>Traveller has definitely piqued my interest in things scientific and
>mathematical, but I have to give D&D credit with jump-starting my imagination
>and vocabulary, as well as my appreciation of mythology.

Hmm.. I started on Traveller, and it spured me to learn real world science.
Last year at a con I had an astronomer ask if I would consider doing my
doctoral work at his school!  The look on his face when I confessed that I
was self-taught...


+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:42:15 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Aliens (was:Re: No, It's not traveller any more....)

At 01:48 AM 1/14/97 -0800, you wrote:

>It didn't feel like Traveller any more. The Aliens were more like DND
>monsters than traveller aliens.

Please explain this statement.  How exactly are the aliens in Traveller
"like DND monsters".

The aliens in Alien Archive are well written, and *very* alien.  That Denaar
might remember being taken to Vland 8000 years ago!  I could base an entire
campaign around finding the truth about the Controlled.  Even on a casual
encounter level most of these aliens, if played well, will leave the players
with the feeling that they have meet a different kind of Intellegence.

Side note:  A few years ago, I had a chance to meet Koko, the famous signing
gorrila.  This.. entity renamed me (Hair Face), offered to play (300lbs of
gorilla plays hard!), and talked to me about cats (we both like them).
Afterwords, I was talking with one of Koko's caregivers and I blurted out
that I felt like I had just talked to an alien.  I had, she assured me.

Koko is an alien.  She is a Mountain Gorilla that has learned to talk with
us.  She has an intellegence that is fully capable of grasping abstract
concepts, but is fundementally different from our own.  That is what makes
an alien.  Not the number of limbs or eyestalks, but that *different*
intellegence.

A Bwap isn't going to get frustrated by impatient humans, he isn't going to
be able to understand their motivation in wanting to hurry.  Asyms aren't
recycling maniacs because they are all Greenpeace members, it is what they
are.  An adult male Aslan *cannot* understand the concept of selling land
for money.  Most K'kree would happily stomp any human into the veldt on
general principle; we only see the tolerant ones on the fringes of the Two
Thousand Worlds.

My point is this: with any alien race (including the humanoids from D&Dish
games) the GM has to get into the mindset of that race, or now matter how
well written, how many color drawings we have, it will still be a guy in a
rubber suit.  Alien Archive takes a great step in helping GM/players with
this by providing a set of quick role-playing guidelines in the form of one
or two word concepts.


+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:42:23 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question

At 10:15 AM 1/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Gad...I'm starting to feel ancient again....I'm 39; cut my rpg teeth, as
>many did, on D&D.
>
>Hrmmm...given the topic-we-do-not-discuss, I'll just have to point out
>that the LAST time the dinosaurs took a hit, it was from a big rock,
>moving fast....

Look, if we're dinosaurs, I dibs Utahraptor.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:44:05 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: 3G3 Hardback

Hm, thanks. :)


- ----------
From: 	Douglas E. Berry[SMTP:dberry@hooked.net]
Sent: 	Saturday, January 11, 1997 10:52 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	RE: 3G3 Hardback

At 11:19 PM 1/10/97 -0500, you wrote:

>From: 	Phillip McGregor[SMTP:aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au]

>>Just received my copy of 3G3 Hardback yesterday (postmarked Boxing Day!)
>>and am *really* impressed -- of course, since the previous copy I had was
>>only the 2nd edition (3g2?) that probably wasn't hard!
>
>Looks interesting!  How much?  Who's the Author? Who's the publisher?

the authoris Greg Porter, the same man who did such a good job on the
Central Supply Catalog.  The publisher is BTRC.

One warning:  make sure you own a good scientific calculator before
starting; this book is tech-geek heaven.


+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:50:26 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

At 10:21 AM 1/13/97 -0700, you wrote:

>	In English we call 'em "Munchkins" (or, as I prefer to call them
>'Crispy Critters' as they tend to have very short, violent lives in my
>games)

"Combat Monsters"
"Power Gamers"
or in our Champions game:
"Charles!  Put down the nuke, now!"

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:58:40 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: TravWeb Central Dragonfire

Hello,

Well, Dragonfire is back up again, both the web server and ftp access have
been restored.  Therefore, I have updated TravWeb Central, with all the
beautiful graphics done by Chris Cox.

In the meantime, I'd like to thank Chris for the use of his account while
Dragonfire has been out...it's much appreciated.

TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:59:44 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: age of players

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Most of us have been at Traveller TM since the early years. I have been =
at it since Gavin ruled the Imperium and I'll still be at it when I'm =
left to writing my own materials. 
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 18:04 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: [T97#824] Dragonfire sites

In-Reply-To: <8CFD35F.0100013339.uuout@execnet.com>

<<  Dragonfire has this interesting syndrome -
 "cyberrubberization".  A server suffering from this exhibits
 the symptoms of being down, then up, then down, then up, then
 down, and so on. >>
 
 Usually known as Yo-yo Mode.
 
    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 18:04 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: JTAS

In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=Digital%l=ALFEXC1-970110195038Z-7519@mrohub1.mro.dec.com>

<< I liked the adventures and the story about Beowulf.  The only problem 
I had with it was the aburpt ending. >>

Drunk too much coke?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:50:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Aging Gamers & Gearheads (long)

Well, I'm 28 and I've been playing Trav on and off since I was 12. The other
people in my group are 22, 27, 27, 27, & 31. Although most of the group has a
technical background (computers & chemistry), we don't want the game to get
really bogged down as to sacrifice playability.

Way back in the early 80's I was just a pc. There was more demand for AD&D
DMs so Trav was always secondary. By 1991 I was fed up with the D&D scene
(haven't played it since) & I finally saw that MT had been released. I found
some friends of mine who felt likewise & we've been playing it exclusively
since.

Since, Trav products have been scarce, we've had to modify the rules (as I'm
sure most people on this list have done) to make them more realistic and/or
playable. Adjusting to MT took a bit of work but overall it was a positive
addition to my Trav resources.

I read in "Science Fiction Age" that TNE came out but I was reluctant to pick
it up. One of the pc's in my group did last year. I liked the plot and the
diversity of character classes. Figuring out combat took a while. I finally
typed a summary of what ground combat entailed because the rule book wasn't
concise. Since I stated that the group would be switching over to this new
system (EVERY bullet must be accounted for) they've been strangely avoiding
ground combat and sticking to just ship combat. 

I finally found a place that sells T4 this weekend. I quickly looked at Ships
(enough has been said here) and Aliens (better, but not useful for my
campaign) before quickly looking through the rulebook. I bought it and read
through most of it yesterday. I'm disappointed that the world generation
system hasn't been updated to reflect the one I found at the Missouri Archive
nor is it as comprehensive as MT. I like the character generation. I think
it's the best to date. I'm thinking about trying to adapt some of the TNE
character groups to it (upon pc request). I'm going to try the ground combat
sequence out to see how well it works. TNE is just too intricate to be
readily playable. A hybrid may be in order. Although my campaign will
continue in it's present time period, I'm going to try and adopt T4 rules
where possible.

At this point in my gaming, I think all I really need is background info,
settings, etc. I'd like to see the CSC. My pcs need something like that. I
look fwd to supplements like the Aslan Border Wars, Vargr Campaigns, etc.
Btw, if anyone knows of a copy of Vilani & Vargr that needs a new home, I'd
be interested. 

Thanks!
\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:52:16 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Age of TML members

Two thoughts:

Although old, at least we know how to spel.
We'd better get new gamers...

Gotta go, my country calls me to duty!

Tom "Deadeye" Lane

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:53:22 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Subject: Questions about SSDS

If you wanted to design Starship with SSDS but wanted to use some of 
components from Vehicle design in CSC, would values be same or are 
they included in general price for Starship.

examples would be entertainment consols, wet bars and such.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:10:38 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Aramis Subsector

>AFAIK, Aramis wasn't used for anything other than the TA.  The lower left
>hand corner showed up in Adventure 3: Twilight Peak, but very little was
>said about it.

There was a mercenary adventure for Aramanxs (in Aramis subsector) set in
the Rebellion era where Sternmetal or other megacorp had smuggled fission
powerplants to one side enabling them to build nuke subs. This was
published in one of the Challenge issues to be used with the Wet Navy rules
published in earlier issues (I don't have them here at work).


/Backman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:28:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Webring is down...

Well, the Dragonfire site is back up (yeah!!!), but the Webring is down.
:(
- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #839
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 13 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 840



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Converting between ssds and qsds
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Is there anyone...
Re: Calling Out the Ten
T4, TNE, MT, CT and Traveller in general
Re: Is there anyone...
Re: Age of TML members
Re: Complexity and Playability
Age
RE: Ken Whitman's comments
RE: the Commander's Age
Re: Aramis Subsector
Happy Birthday HAL
RE: Ken Whitman's comments
Munchkins, was:F&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR WIMPS :-)
Re: There's gold in that there infrastructure...
Re: T4, TNE, MT, CT and Traveller in general
Re: Calling Out the Ten
Age
Re: What happened to the NAH?
Traveller CD ROM!!
RE: Ken Whitman's comments
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: Lots of complaints
Re: Age of TML members

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:37:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Converting between ssds and qsds

Anyone have any straighforward means of converting SSDS components to QSDS
without backing all the way up to FF&S?

Actually, all I want right now is the Scout/Exploration sensor suite
converted to QSDS stats (guess why ;-)

As I read SSDS (vs QSDS) Communications and Sensors are done in one fell
swoop rather than being two different subsystems, right?

This is in reference to the monthly contest, since you CAN'T design a
scout exploration ship in QSDS, you can't put in the necessary sensors.
(at least not without becoming a cable guy from hell, and retrofitting
everyone's satellite dish into a VLA ;-) 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:52:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

Hi.

<snip snip snip>

I agree with everything you said, but I have a slightly different
take on this. I am a gear-headed techno-geek who does nuclear physics
for a living. I do not like the complexity of FFS, not because it is too
hard.

I don't like it because its complexity is needless!

Look at the formulae given there! They are gross simplifications. You
can't expect me to believe that the simple linear, quadratic, and
cubic equations are sufficient for a REALISTIC discription of either
modern or future technology. You can't expect me to believe that the 
arbitrary six-step binary progression of the USD table accurately models
any kind of physically real system.

So FFS is a gross approximation. That's fine. I can live with gross
approximations. In science, we use them all the time. Gross
approximations are often useful because they SIMPLIFY.

But why should I use a compex and hard gross approximation,
when I could be using a nice and simple gross approximation?

To put it another way, why should we strain out the gnat of
bullshittium and then swallow the camel of the USD table?

- -Rob, who is still futilely lobbying for a return to High Guard.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:49:32 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Is there anyone...

Is there anyone out here on the TML other than Ethan and I programming in
Java?

I've been creating background classes that others could use for a
java-based Animal Encounter table generator (gotta learn Java with
_something_) and wanted to maybe arrange some sharing...

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:06:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Calling Out the Ten

Hi.

I'm one of the ten. I'm delighted that Traveller is back.

It may not be better than ever, but its no worse than before. Every
version of Trav has had good, bad, and ugly supplements. T4 looks
no different. The rule changes (except perhaps for ship design) are good
improvements. Starships wasn't so good. The other stuff has been
adequate to great.

- -Rob, who finally stands up to be counted.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:06:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: T4, TNE, MT, CT and Traveller in general

Heyo!

I've been following the list for about 4 months now, contributing when I
can (shaking my head in amazement when I can't!), and watching the general
tone of the list get more and more negative.

I'm not talking about the constant bickering of the 'hard science' vs. the
'space opera' players, I mean this constant dragging down of the product.
I agree that there are problems with Traveller, and probably with IG, that
need addressing and resolution.  But how many times do we have to go over
the same points, when all that is being contributed is hard feelings?
Very occasionally, I see someone address a point, and make a suggestion
for resolving that point, but that seems to be the exception.

That exception, IMHO, is the way to correct problems.  Instead of
just complaining, let's be proactive and FIX the problems.  If you don't
like the way a table works, rework it and share it with the rest of us!
If you don't have a fix, approach the problem as a request for
assistance, and let the rest of us help.  It's time to move on past the
problems T4 has had in startup, and start resolving 'em so that we can
both ENJOY the game (more), and ensure that IG is successful enough to
continue to feed our habits!  :)

I personally run a composite campaign, drawing on all 4 versions for ideas
and background.  I may not be canon, but I darn well enjoy it, and so
do my players (I hope!)  I've been playing traveller since the early 80's
(CT), running it since the mid-80's.

For those that care, I'm in my mid-30's, as are most of my players
(except for that rogue 21 yr old I just recruited!)

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
      Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:09:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Is there anyone...

Sorry, I'm working in VB with MS Access databases (same theory tho', learn
to program with things you enjoy doing!)

Does anyone have any traveller material done in VB that they wouldn't mind
sharing the project files to?

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Joseph Heck wrote:

> Is there anyone out here on the TML other than Ethan and I programming in
> Java?
>
> I've been creating background classes that others could use for a
> java-based Animal Encounter table generator (gotta learn Java with
> _something_) and wanted to maybe arrange some sharing...
>
> --
>  joe                          (573) 882-2000
>  ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
>  PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
>  "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
>  impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin
>

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
      Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:12:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Age of TML members

ARDUMOIRE!  Whatever happened to that gaming gem?  (Apologies to the rest
of the list for this VERY OFF SUBJECT post!)

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 02:08 PM 1/13/97 UT, you wrote:
> >I'll be 33 in a week, and I started gaming in 1978, the first time I remember
> >gaming with Traveller was 1980 (I think), my first rpg was...The Arduin
> >Grimoire! (anyone remember that!)
>
> AG!!  I used to love the critical hit tables in that one...
>
> +-----------------------------------------------------+
> |     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
> |        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
> |           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
> |*****************************************************|
> |                      ARMADILLO:                     |
> |        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
> +-----------------------------------------------------+
>

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
      Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:15:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Complexity and Playability

Hi.

> In stead of just adding up easy weights, like a pistol that weighs 
> 4kg, my players would have to add numbers like 3.92537 kg.  I think 
> you see where I am going with this.  While the long number is 
> unnecessary, it is more realistic.

The long number is not realistic. The weight of your pistol will vary by
several milligrams depending on when it was last cleaned, how much sweat
has dried onto it from your hand, how much residue was deposited by the
last bullet, etc. 

False precision never adds more realism. Just more complexity.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:57:28 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Age

I'm 35, and have been playing Traveller on and off since 1979. My players
range from 42 to 19. I also have 4 women in my group, which I understand is
a bit non-standard :)
                                                        Allen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:00:33 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: RE: Ken Whitman's comments

Ken,
        I interpreted the comment about Courtney to mean that the BUSINESS
end of things was running a little smoother these days. It's no disgrace to
be a good game designer and a poor businessman; they've written volumes of
books on what I DON'T know about business.
        A word of caution though; I wouldn't go around shouting "I'm the guy
that helped design STARSHIPS" real loud if I were you...
                                        Allen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:22:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: RE: the Commander's Age

Greetings all, it seems like eveyone here is throwing thier age 
arround(begining to sound like an AoL chatroom!)

>In character mode on<

Well, the CEO of XTEK, Count of Planet X etc... is, um er...what year is 
this again?
Oh yes year 0001 I guess that makes me -1082, ...wha?! that can be 
right....stupid computer...er I'm 43, yes that's it 43 if I'm a day! Yep 43! 
 Born on Efa...er..Sylea, yep thats right Sylean born and raised! (geez this 
hand comp is just spoutin' jibberish today!)

>Character mode off<

Me personaly, the human, not the figment of my demetia,  I am 26.  I have 
played Trav since the black book days, having played AD&D for about a year 
before hearing of Traveller.  Basicaly I was trying to make a Sci-Fi game 
myself(was too D&Dish)  even came up with "tech levels" yep thats what i 
called them!  Then someone told me and brought over traveller one day.  been 
hooked ever since 1985.

And what of my space game?  Well, its been through 4 revisions 1985-1990 
then i just said to blazes with it and concentrated on Traveller. It had 
practicaly everything i could want in a space game. The background 
information from that old homegrown I still use as an "Alternate Quadrant". 
 Trying to do it yourself gives you a feel for what game designers must 
probably go through, so I treat them with great respect and admiration.

If you do the math, you will see I started trying to create "Starships & 
Zapguns(S&Z)" when I was 15.  Not bad, but verrrrry buggy(and just a bit, a 
bit mind you, plagaristic ;)  )

Well is that enough Info for the Infonauts?

CmdrX

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:29:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Aramis Subsector

Hi.

I don't think there was much of anything set in Aramis except the Trav
Adventure. It was pretty much wide-open terratory, that's why they used
it, I think.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:34:12 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Subject: Happy Birthday HAL

  "I am an HAL 9000 computer, Production Number 3.  I became
   operational at the HAL Plant in Urbana, Illinois, on January 12, 1997."

		--  "2001: a Space Odyssey" by Arthur C. Clarke

It seemed so far in the future when that movie came out...

Earl Wajenberg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:40:58 -0500
From: whitman@pensys.com (Ken Whitman)
Subject: RE: Ken Whitman's comments

Allen  Schock

>Ken,
>        I interpreted the comment about Courtney to mean that the BUSINESS
>end of things was running a little smoother these days. It's no disgrace to
>be a good game designer and a poor businessman; they've written volumes of
>books on what I DON'T know about business.
>        A word of caution though; I wouldn't go around shouting "I'm the guy
>that helped design STARSHIPS" real loud if I were you...
>                                        Allen


I had nothing to do with starships and Highlander 2 never exsisted!-)

Thanx,

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:44:40 -0600
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Munchkins, was:F&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR WIMPS :-)

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>At 10:21 AM 1/13/97 -0700, Doug wrote:
>>	In English we call 'em "Munchkins" (or, as I prefer to call them
>>'Crispy Critters' as they tend to have very short, violent lives in my
>>games)
>"Combat Monsters"
>"Power Gamers"
>or in our Champions game:
>"Charles!  Put down the nuke, now!"

   Don't confuse the 'Munchkin' class with the GearHeaded MinMaxer!
The GHMM carefully examines the rules to produce the optimum character and
equipment load.  True MinMakers casually destroy Munchkins out of a deep
seated loathing. :-)


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love."
 - Turkish Proverb   		http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:39:47 -0800
From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Subject: Re: There's gold in that there infrastructure...

John P. Raynor wrote:

> This also ensures that all of the planets in the Third Imperium have the
> same "standards" - so, for example, an electrical applicance manufactured
> on one planet can be plugged into a wall socket on another planet (I would
> imagine this kind of thing would extend to everything from electronic
> character encoding sets to the diameters of nuts and bolts).  

Are you sure about that?  If you go in with a Company standard rather
than
the Imperial standard, you get a built in monoploy, "You bought a GunkHo
Toaster, sir.  I'm sorry about that, Ling Standard Services only
supports
Ling Standard Toasters on it's power grid."  And etc.... though that
makes
for good player hooks too... "We want you to get the specs LS is going
to be using on planet Foo..."

Ideas.... :)

Douglas

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:00:01 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: T4, TNE, MT, CT and Traveller in general

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Douglas wrote:

> I've been following the list for about 4 months now, contributing when I
> can (shaking my head in amazement when I can't!), and watching the general
> tone of the list get more and more negative.

<sigh>  'Tis true.


> just complaining, let's be proactive and FIX the problems.  If you don't
> like the way a table works, rework it and share it with the rest of us!
> If you don't have a fix, approach the problem as a request for
> assistance, and let the rest of us help.  It's time to move on past the
> problems T4 has had in startup, and start resolving 'em so that we can

But that's so haaaaaarrrrrdddd! :)  

But seriously, there are indeed lots of folks on this list (and on 
GDW-Beta) that do their share to ensure the survival of their favorite 
RPG.  Twolf actively recruits folks who've never played Traveller before 
to his IRC-based game.  Suz Dollar has provided a space for us on IRC, 
where we can discuss the game in all its glory <G>.  Stuart, Douglas, and 
Peter try to talk sense into the folks on rec.games.frp.marketplace - a 
daunting task as best, and I commend them for having the fortitude to 
even try <G>.  Then there's people like Guy "Wildstar" Garnett, Dave 
Golden, Merrick Burkhardt, and the rest of the active GDW-Beta team 
who've stepped up to the plate more than once to make Traveller a success 
by helping with the technical design systems.  Let's not forget Kenneth 
Bearden, who complained about the T4 task system, then came up with a 
comprehensive fix within 2 weeks or so, and shared it far and wide.  Rich 
Ostero is certainly doing his share, as he runs a game every Sunday at 
his FLGS, which helps to draw many new members to the ranks of the 
Traveller enthusiasts.  Joe Heck, Commander X, and a legion of others 
help spread the word by running great web sites.  David Joseph Smart 
certainly amazed me by offering to compile the complete list of T4 errata 
(now available on IG's web site - way to go David!), and give out prizes 
to the biggest contributors.  James Dempsey, he of the superlative web 
site with the TML FAQ and other wonders, does a lot to keep us together, 
including keeping the list of Those Topics Which Must Not Be Mentioned. 
=)  Then there's Eris, who was crazy enough to go off to Gearhead 
territory with me and design the Role-Playing Space Combat system 
(Eris, it didn't turn out as we had originally planned, but it's 
still a damned fine space combat system).  Well, I better stop naming 
names, because I could keep going all day.  :)

It's quite obvious that many, many of us go out of our way to help 
Traveller succeed.  Which isn't to say that there's no need for more 
folks who are willing to give of themselves in order to assure 
Traveller's continued success.


> both ENJOY the game (more), and ensure that IG is successful enough to
> continue to feed our habits!  :)

Amen, Brother. :)


> I personally run a composite campaign, drawing on all 4 versions for ideas
> and background.  I may not be canon, but I darn well enjoy it, and so
> do my players (I hope!)  I've been playing traveller since the early 80's
> (CT), running it since the mid-80's.
> 
> For those that care, I'm in my mid-30's, as are most of my players
> (except for that rogue 21 yr old I just recruited!)

Glad to meet ya.  I'm 28, and I've been a Traveller enthusiast for more 
than half my life. =)  'Though I must admit that the ol' enthusiasm has 
been kinda kicked into high gear for the last year or so. :-)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 1997 16:37 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Re: Calling Out the Ten

Ok, I'm putting in my 2 cents.  I like the T4 rulebook -- the
improvements over CT are good-sense and even streamline the
rules, as well as providing the interfaces for gearhead engineers.
Doesn't that capture the best of both worlds?

These rules are already replacing the old rules in the current
game I'm in.

And from what I've heard here, I just have to get a look at
the CSC, and yes, maybe the Aliens Archive...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:59:06 -0800
From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Subject: Age

Hello

Someone asked if anyone under 25 served on the LIST.  I must humbly 
announce my proud age as being under 25 (a college student).  I've 
played traveller for some time now (about 6 years) and I'm totally in 
love with it.  It's a great system and I think many other younger 
players would like it also.  

Brad Urwiller
ravyn@ptw.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:01:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: What happened to the NAH?

On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, JayStr wrote:

> 1) Emperor's Arsenal,
> 2) Imperial Squadrons,
> and, bless my soul,
> 3) Fire, Fusion, & Steel. (God help us).
> 
> But no Naval Architect's Handbook. 

I just spoke to Tim Brown, who told me that the FF&S listed on the web 
site refers to the system currently under development on GDW-Beta.  The 
final title of the work is indeterminate at this time, and they felt that 
"Fire, Fusion, & Steel" adequately communicated the subject matter of the 
book.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:02:42 -0800
From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Subject: Traveller CD ROM!!

I'd buy the Traveller CD ROM in a second two.  Whether or not it has 
rules online I'd just love to see some of the design sequences 
automated.  For example Character, Animal, Ship design, Vehicle design, 
 etc.  Plus maybe clipart.  

What else Maybe a map generator for planets, cities, buildings, etc.  I 
know their is one on the web maybe we could get one for CD.

Anyway its a great idea.  I'd love to see it in the flesh and buy it!

Brad Urwiller
ravyn@ptw.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:14:07 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Ken Whitman's comments

At 02:40 PM 1/13/97 -0500, Ken wrote:
>Allen  Schock

>>        A word of caution though; I wouldn't go around shouting "I'm the guy
>>that helped design STARSHIPS" real loud if I were you...
>>                                        Allen

>I had nothing to do with starships and Highlander 2 never exsisted!-)

right, and I bet you were nowhere NEAR dallas on Nov 22, 1963 either..

Ken Whitman is the sixth Oswald (alt.conspiracy injoke)


+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:22:59 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

On Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:25:08 -0500 (EST), you wrote:

> You must be kidding. FF&S too complex? Its NOT detailed enough. =
Anything
> less detailed than FF&S belongs to Star Wars RPG, not Traveller. Nobody
> forces you to go FF&S. If you don't like it, then why not just stick =
with
> that Lego system in T4?

Excuse me?  So, anyone that is still using CT or MT is actually
playing StarWars (due to the complexity of those two systems) and not
real Traveller?  Strange... my copy of CT says "Traveller" on the
front cover.  Traveller is not a military boardgame-- it is a RPG.
=46F&S is not a RPG-- it is a design system.

People like yourself seem to think that the perfect roleplaying game
would require a far more detailed version of FF&S, the entire Phoenix
Command game system for detailed combat (or perhaps even a live-action
paintball conflict), World In Flames for global conflicts, and access
to the Hubble telescope for celestial information.

Traveller is a role-playing game... bog it down with too many
dominating supplements and your target audience begins to shrink.
Even if such people choose not to buy these add-on products and stick
with the basic T4 rulebook, they could very well feel that
'complexity' is the direction IG plans to go with future Traveller
releases, and decide that such a game is not one that they would be
willing to pay for.  Imagine what goes through the minds of newbie
roleplayers that see an entire wall of a gaming store dedicated to
AD&D... 'Where do I start-- or do I even bother?'

I agree with much of what Jay stated in his lengthy, but thorough
posting... if IG re-released FF&S, the only people that would buy it
would be people which currently own FF&S, and a few new interested
customers.  In fact, some current owners of FF&S might NOT want to buy
the new version is simply a re-release and not a complete re-write.

If IG made FF&S more complicated, they would probably sell _you_ a
copy (as well as a few others on this list).  But how many players
would they alienate by producing a product that these people felt
uncomfortable with or could not use?  Since so few people would buy a
"more complicated version of FF&S", they would have to price them out
at over three times the price of the current "Starships" to make any
sort of profit (someone has to be paid for all the time involved in
the project).

You obviously missed the point of Jay's post, and that was:

"For a company to be successful, it must try to make sure its products
are well received by as many people as possible."  If a car
manufacturer decided not to bother making vehicles with automatic
transmissions, they would be missing out on a large portion of the
driving public.

As another list member put it, keeping FF&S "as it stands" (or making
it even more complicated) does little for added detail since all of
the other remaining interrelated rules would then be considered
woefully inadequate (ie: the combat rules suck-- both starship and
personal).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:17:40 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints

Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> 
> And that makes 10! 
> 
> Kenneth.
> (with all 20 thumbs raised in the air).

All opposable, I assume?? :)

- -- 
- --Rich Ostorero		http://home.inreach.com/lordbasl/index.html
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:46:06 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Age of TML members

Arthur Murphy wrote:
> 
> I'll be 33 in a week, and I started gaming in 1978, the first time I remember
> gaming with Traveller was 1980 (I think), my first rpg was...The Arduin
> Grimoire! (anyone remember that!)


Yep! I also remember meeting Dave Hargrove back in the early 80s at a
con in the SF Bay Area. I used Arduin as a massive D&D supplement. It
was at this con that I first ran Trav outside my home gaming group . . .
.

I also heard that Dave passed away a few years ago; however, I don't
know weather this is true or not.


 
- --Rich Ostorero		http://home.inreach.com/lordbasl/index.html
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #840
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 13 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 841



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ken Whitman - About Pricing
Re: Lots of complaints
Ok! We have heard enough about what sux!
Re: Dinosaurs
Contragrav speeds
Re: Is there anyone... 
Re: Age of TML members
Contragrav and AGC (anti-grav craft) weapons
Re: Is there anyone...
Dinosaurs
Re: There's gold in that there infrastructure...
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Complexity vs. Comprehensive
Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question
Re: Melee weapons
Re: Melee weapons
Traveller Design Systems & Aliens
Re: Age of TML members
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: Lots of complaints
Re: Melee weapons
Re: Melee weapons
Re: Melee weapons
Re: Age of Traveller Players
Re: Traveller Design Systems & Aliens
Re: Vilani & Long Pig...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:59:41 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Ken Whitman - About Pricing

Ken Whitman wrote:
>  Therefore, I will refrain from speeking of old IG  business and talk about the >  game.

_The game_ is what matters most here. I can't wait to hear what you have
to say next, Ken.
> 
> However, I want to end this letter I had a good time working on Traveller,

Gotta love your work :)

> and I relly wish that Traveller is around for my kids to play long after I
> am gone.


I'd like to see Trav hang around so I can introduce my (someday)
grandkids to the game; my teenaged daughter isn't into science fiction
or gaming (damn the luck). Maybe someday she'll see the light . . . . :)


- -- 
- --Rich Ostorero		http://home.inreach.com/lordbasl/index.html
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:42:46 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints

Joseph E. Walsh wrote:

> 
> There's the answer Ken Bearden and I were looking for!  Most of the
> people that like T4 are too danged busy *playing* the game to argue about
> it.  I shoulda figured that one out for myself. =)

I thought that was the whole idea: playing the bluidy game:)

- --Rich Ostorero		http://home.inreach.com/lordbasl/index.html
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:06:51 +1000
From: PARISC@complete.com.au (Paris Conte)
Subject: Ok! We have heard enough about what sux!

- --_[INTERGATE-SMTP713655282]_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

For the past couple of days all most of us have posted, or read, is how   
Traveller has lost the its shine, and, that it is now only a game for us   
old die hard fans.

Now that we have seen the problems, lets fix them.

Traveller is one of the longest surviving RPG's and still the best! I   
don't know of too many RPG's that has had as much talent, love and vision   
put into it from gamers from all over the world. Face it, IG may produce   
the books, but we keep Traveller alive. In a nut shell, Traveller belongs   
to us, the gamers, and if we don't want to see it die, then we have to   
save it!

If we love Traveller as much as we say we do, than the responsibility of   
Preserving Traveller is ours not IG's.

With this in mind I would like to see discussion change to "What can we   
do to save Traveller?" Let us combine under a new banner as  "Custodians   
of Traveller".

Lets combine our ideas on this mailing list! Let us pass the sacred   
torch, that is Traveller, to a new Generation (When we are finished with   
it of course! :))

Please don't let Traveller die! If Traveller died it would be like all   
the stars in the heavens suddenly went out. Traveller is not about IG,   
it's not even about us the players........ It's about keeping the dream   
alive...... "That one day man will truly walk among the stars!"

Here endith the lesson!

Paris Conte
(25 and still a dreamer!)
parisc@complete.com.au

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- --_[INTERGATE-SMTP713655282]_--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:06:25 +0001
From: "Nick Meredith" <nickm@discover.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Dinosaurs

Age 37
Other regulars in group 36 & "under 40-ish".
(although I will admit that the group is currently playing AD&D & 
board wargames not Traveller).

Remember - dinosaurs lasted longer than hmans have so far.
- -- 
Cheers
Nick Meredith - nickm@discover.co.uk - Coventry, UK

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:14:58 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <diemos@ican.net>
Subject: Contragrav speeds

I'm having trouble with the speed of contragrav vehicles from CSC.
The formula is quite simple:

power x g-rating x 3000 
- -----   --------          = Speed
mass       2

However, the example vehicles in CSC don't seem to match this.  The
Rolen Politesse does if you take power to be the power fed to the
contragrav.  Fair enough.  But the grav tank uses the total power
from the fusion unit.  The other grav vehicles don't seem to fit
however I massage them.  What am I doing wrong?

Doug
- -- Definitely not designing an IISS ship's vehicle with CG <grin>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 09:19:03 +1000
From: Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Is there anyone... 

hi,

>Is there anyone out here on the TML other than Ethan and I programming in
>Java?

I have (not too surprising really).
  
I haven't motivated myself enough to start writing traveller code (yet).  I 
did think about converting my random word generator and speaker over but 
java's sound support is criminally lacking :-(

Given how slow work is at present, I may be able to squeeze some time during 
the day :-)


>I've been creating background classes that others could use for a
>java-based Animal Encounter table generator (gotta learn Java with
>_something_) and wanted to maybe arrange some sharing...

I might be interested.....




Pauli
- --
Dr Paul Dale                    | Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au
c/o Computer Centre             | phone: +61 77 814 551  fax: +61 77 815 230
James Cook University           | http://www.jcu.edu.au/~ccptd/
Townsville                      |
Queensland  4811                | Did you know that there are 42 two letter
Australia                       |     words containing the letter 'a'?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:02:56 -0500
From: Rob Beck <beck@mail.all-net.net>
Subject: Re: Age of TML members

Well, I'm all of 25 and started gaming with D&D in 1983. Then in the
mid-80's I saw Twilight:2000 sitting on the shelf of my neighborhood comic
store, it was fairly new at the time. I don't even think it's first module
was out yet. This was my introduction to GDW. Previously, I'd only bought
TSR games *shudder*, but I really liked GDW's style of products. A year or
two later I got to playing Traveller and have been hooked ever since.
Everybody's got an opinion, of course, but I thought of GDW as the class of
the RPG industry. 
My gaming group, luckily for me, agrees. :) They range in age from 23 to 27.
Even though some people have drifted in and out over the years, and our
lives have taken an annoying turn towards adulthood, a few of us still find
time to game every once in a great while. Even got them hooked on T4. The
first session ended in a misjump, though. *This does not bode well*
I'm glad to see so many other people are dedicated to seeing Traveller survive. 
Thus ends the fuzzy warm sentiment... ;)

Adios,
Rob.


                         Robert Beck
                         E-Mail: beck@mail.all-net.net
                         Send E-Mail For My Public PGP Key.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:37:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Contragrav and AGC (anti-grav craft) weapons

I'm getting a game ready for this weekend, and have some questions about
the vulnerability of grav vehicles...I'm hoping the TML will bring some
clarification on the matter.

Just how much damage can a grav plate take before it ceases to function?
The standard Air/Raft (as I recall) has 4-1 ton C/G plates on the bottom
that provide lift, and a separate thrust mechanism (we'll side-step that
minefield for now).  If I have, say, a marine in a trench, with a rifle.
He is placed in such a way as NOT to be able to take out the pilot, but
CAN hit the underside of the vehicle, what does he have to do (as per his
BMR training in boot camp) to damage/destroy the grav craft?  Does anyone
have any specific AGC weaponry designed?

I assume the basic technology is fairly robust, but I cannot find any
specifics.  Any opinions?

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
      Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:58:37 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Is there anyone...

Pauli said:
> I did think about converting my random word generator and speaker over but 
> java's sound support is criminally lacking :-(

There's more than a few pieces that are "criminally lacking" in Java yet
- - building a GUI _that looks decent_ has be the single hardest part of
this whole learning experience.

> >I've been creating background classes that others could use for a
> >java-based Animal Encounter table generator (gotta learn Java with
> >_something_) and wanted to maybe arrange some sharing...
> 
> I might be interested.....

Well, I'm going to start keeping code bits, applets, and so forth in 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/java/

Have at if you're interested, and If you get to feel like adding
anything, let me know and I'll drop it in.

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:46:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
Subject: Dinosaurs

do
> ...do we have anyone under 25 years old on the list?  What is the average 
> age of the list.  i.e. Are we dinosaurs?

I generally feel that I fall in the dinosaur category.  I'm 35, and have been
a fan of Traveller since the week that the black box showed up at my local
game and hobby shop in 1977.  I started off with miniatures and Avalon Hill
games around 1971, and picked up D&D in 1976.

John Snead writes that at 35 he's due for his first aging roll (-: -- actually
it's at 34, isn't it?  I noticed it last year, and though how in 1977 I never
let any characters run much past 3 terms--obviously they were getting too old
to consiider adventures at that age. (-:

As for the deterioration of the TML--go back and look at the archives from
the time when TNE was announced. (Sometime in '92).  Those were flamewars...

I probably also come close to qualifying as a TML dinosaur, having joined
up in 1990.  Any other long service veterans still lurking out there?  Hans
is still here regularly, and I saw George Herbert post last week...

Rob Dean
robdean@access.digex.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:52:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: There's gold in that there infrastructure...

J. Raynor writes:

> This also ensures that all of the planets in the Third Imperium have the
> same "standards" -

I concur.  I've always assumed that there was an Imperial Bureau of Standards
(or perhaps an Imperial Standards Institute) that organized that sort of 
thing, as well as providing the data packages for obsolete technology. (IDPs
were mentioned in my MT design collection.)

Rob Dean
robdean@access.digex.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:24:03 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Robert Flammang wrote:
> -Rob, who is still futilely lobbying for a return to High Guard.
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

For whatever it's worth, I agree with you regarding "C.T. Book 6: High
Guard."  My support for it is not entirely wholehearted.  I wish, for
example, that the relationship between a ship's mass and the output of its
maneuver drives determined its acceleration.  I also wish there were rules
for different types of maneuver drives and power plants (so, for example,
one could design a plausible Tech Level 8 "battlecruiser," with a fission
reactor and an ion drive, or a short-range Tech Level 15 "interceptor" 
powered by high-output batteries).  Aside, however, from a few other
quibbles like this, I tend to think that "H. G." has nearly the right
balance between "realism" and complexity.
                                                           - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:05:33 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Complexity vs. Comprehensive

I personally don't find FF&S too complicated; but then, I put in the effort
to learn how to use a scientific calculator :)
        I will admit though that my support for FF&S extends ONLY to the
starship construction system. I have no use for anything else in the book. I
will allow the gearheads here to design vehicles and weapons, and happily
use theirs.
        I will be absolutely clear, however, in saying that QSDS is my
favorite TRAVELLER ship design system. In fact, I would like to see it
expanded! COMPREHENSIVE is not the same as COMPLEX. I would like to see hull
tables for 1,2,4 and 5 G's. I would like to see the tables extended to allow
much larger ships (maybe up to one million tons eventually). I want MORE
components that can be put into QSDS ships, but I want the system to remain
fundamentally the same. But I do think NAH/FF&S should exist for those who
want to create from the ground up. How about a book with revised and updated
versions of ALL THREE levels of ship design complexity under ONE cover? Then
you can choose whatever you like! And I would VERY MUCH like to see a method
for converting NAH stats
to ratings usable with CT and MT as well as T4, so the book will be as
useful as possible to ALL Traveller fans. (Conversion appendices, not lots
of additional rules).
                                        Allen Shock

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:25:19 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question

Tom Lane wrote:
>In response to Joe Walsh's insight as to the necessity of new gamers, do
>we have anyone under 25 years old on the list?  What is the average age
>of the list.  i.e. Are we dinosaurs?

I am a shade past 30 (getting close to those aging rolls)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:32:09 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> > >> Melee weapons are useless in a
> > >>modern war
> 
> Wrong.  I had this discussion with one of my players a while back.
> He's an ex-Marine (the player, not the character), and he made a good
> point.
> 
> The bayonnet has been standard military issue for over 200 years.
> There's no reason to believe that will change.
> 
> I think he made his point.
> 
> Kenneth.

ummm, no.
The bayonet is a tool, not a weapon
It caused less than 0.25% of the casualties in the US Civil War (and they used them a lot)
They are useless as a weapon. They are a tool, a morale booster, and stinkin' heavy for a 
knife

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:34:20 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

Neveron@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  on Jan 11 marz@hotstar.net (Mused)
> > Melee weapons are useless in a
> >modern war, and are used as weapons only if you cannot get a real one (ie a
> >gun)
> >The only melee weapons development is for crowd control and useless consists
> >of better
> >clubs, riot gases and plexiglas shields
> In a full blown battle, yes, a melee weapon is foolish, but what about a
> boarding action, especially if you don't want to risk damaging the ship being
> boarded. Asssins are also fond of hand to hand weapons....

again, I would rather have a room-sweeper type shotgun with glaser rounds than a 
hyper-vibro-ninja-death star dagger. Incidentally, most real assassins use explosives or 
small pistols. If they use a hand to hand weapon, icepicks are a perennial favourite

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 19:46:56 -0600
From: Harley Grantham <harley@wavetech.net>
Subject: Traveller Design Systems & Aliens

Just a few comments on the vast amount of data crossing the TML this 
week. (wow!)

I Think the point that is missing here concerning the design systems is 
that most people don't want to design vehicles at all!  The vehicle 
design system in CSC was fine for some I suppose but I have 101 Vehicles 
and I don't intend to design any.  I would have preferred to see that 
space devoted to pregenerated vehicles and other neat stuff and put the 
design system in the design book.  Starships should have been a book of 
pregenerated STARships, not pages and pages of lifeboats, fighters and 
launches, and the SSDS should again have been in the design book.

So while some may want a new version of FF&S, I think there would be a 
real market for a revised version of Traders and Gunboats, Fighting Ships 
of the Imperium, and my all time favorite, Starship Operator's Manual.

As for Alien Archives, I haven't commented as I haven't read it all yet, 
but the comment it looks like a bunch of D&D monsters is certainly valid 
for the artwork.  The text IS better than that, but this is a case where 
the art actively detracts from the text, instead of just getting in the 
way.  The pictures of Newts in the old Journal were much better!  A Newt 
wearing clothes, and using tools!  Who would have thought it? 

And finally a quick comment on the Foss art.  The thing I think that is 
missing here is people.  Foss doesn't draw people, he draws ships, 
vehicles, spacesuits and buildings.  But Traveller is a roleplaying game. 
 It's about people. Sure there's room for a picture of starships flying 
around from time to time, but the most powerful and most memorable 
artwork associated with the game centers around people. (Where in this 
context, aliens are people too. :)  Look at the covers of the 
Megatraveller Encyclopedia or Player's Handbook, or the Rebellion 
Sourcebook.  It's the people that make those pictures memorable.  And 
it's the portrayal of aliens as "people" in the art in the old contact 
articles that make those pictures work.  The art in Alien Archives fails 
to do this. 

Oh yes, and for the record, I'm 39.

Harley Grantham                                       harley@wavetech.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:37:12 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Age of TML members

Arthur Murphy wrote:
> 
> I'll be 33 in a week, and I started gaming in 1978, the first time I remember
> gaming with Traveller was 1980 (I think), my first rpg was...The Arduin
> Grimoire! (anyone remember that!)

yes. That is the game with the monsters having a % liar stat

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:08:22 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> But isn't FF&S broken, David?
> 
> I mean, why are the weights in the TNE equipment guide so heavy.
> Like the power packs for the lasers.  They cannot be effective
> weapons if they were that heavy.
> 
> Kenneth.

Yep. That's why I went through the GDW-Beta archives, boned up on
the errata discussions, and changed the weights to what I liked.
It may not be canon but I'm not publishing any designs and, besides,
FF&S canon breaches are too heavy. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:03:22 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints

Rich Ostorero wrote:
> 
> Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> >
> > And that makes 10!
> >
> > Kenneth.
> > (with all 20 thumbs raised in the air).
> 
> All opposable, I assume?? :)

Kenneth has 20 thumbs? They yours? Or did you "collect" them from other people?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:06:18 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

J.D. Burdick wrote:
> At tech level 12 what sort of new melee weapons might be available.  Blur is
> a great example.  It cause you to drop your weapon, or temporarily blinds
> your opponent.  What about melee weapons will tranq abilities??  Or maybe a
> sword that deflects laser blast back at your opponent??  The possibilities
> for melee weapons are, like everything else in Traveller, only limited by
> your imagination.

Your examples were, as I said, riot gear.
DEFLECTING LASERS WITH A SWORD?!??!
There are many things that are in the realm of human possibility
This is not, will not and can never be.
Limited by imagination, restrained by common sense

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:07:42 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 01/12/97 at 09:25 AM,  Neveron@aol.com said:
> 
> > In a full blown battle, yes, a melee weapon is foolish, but what about a
> > boarding action, especially if you don't want to risk damaging the ship
> > being boarded. Asssins are also fond of hand to hand weapons....
> 
> As are duelists, and it appears there is a "code duelo" in the Imperium.
> 
> It may well be that a well-educated "Gentleman" or "Gentlewoman" is
> expected to be able to handle a foil, saber, or dueling pistol. If that's
> the case, then people will *use* what they know.  So, even in situations
> where a saber might not be the logical thing to use, it still might be the
> weapon of *social* choice.

Considerably different from using one in REAL (ie war) combat. Only idiots would forsake 
a firearm for a melee weapon. (Ask the samurai during the Meiji restoration)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:09:10 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

> For inspiration it might be worth it to hunt down a copy of GDW's
> _En Garde!_. I keep my copy at my mistress's house. ;-)
> 
> And who knows, maybe there's even a clue in the rules regarding
> jump drives? :-)

Actually IG would not do bad to try to adapt En GArde to a macro-roleplaying supplement 
for people who like to be prime movers

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:18:56 -0500
From: J_Lambert <72300.2131@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Age of Traveller Players

I guess I set the record: 51. I've been with Traveller since the beginning,
but those aging rolls are starting to catch up!

Later, John Lambert

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:21:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Design Systems & Aliens

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Harley Grantham wrote:

> I Think the point that is missing here concerning the design systems is 
> that most people don't want to design vehicles at all!  The vehicle 

I agree.  I'd even go so far as to say that there is undoubtedly a large 
contingent of customers and potential customers who don't even want to 
design starships.  They want pre-made stuff.


> design system in CSC was fine for some I suppose but I have 101 Vehicles 
> and I don't intend to design any.  I would have preferred to see that 
> space devoted to pregenerated vehicles and other neat stuff and put the 
> design system in the design book.  Starships should have been a book of 
> pregenerated STARships, not pages and pages of lifeboats, fighters and 
> launches, and the SSDS should again have been in the design book.

I could go for that approach.


> So while some may want a new version of FF&S, I think there would be a 
> real market for a revised version of Traders and Gunboats, Fighting Ships 
> of the Imperium, and my all time favorite, Starship Operator's Manual.

It's interesting to think of how long it took for Traveller to get all 
that nifty stuff.  Shoot, for the first three years of Traveller's 
existence there wasn't much from GDW for the system.  By the end of the 
next three years, there was certainly some good stuff out there.  And by 
the time MT was about to be launched, there was so much product from 
so many companies!  

I know times are different now, but heck, T4's only been around for a few 
months.  There's certainly time to put out the sort of products you're 
talking about - I'd certainly love to see them! :)


> And finally a quick comment on the Foss art.  The thing I think that is 
> missing here is people.  Foss doesn't draw people, he draws ships, 
> vehicles, spacesuits and buildings.  But Traveller is a roleplaying game. 
>  It's about people. Sure there's room for a picture of starships flying 

Very true.  And actually this is one of the comments I included in that 
compilation of constructive criticisms of _Starships_ from the TML that I 
sent to Courtney.  I don't recall whose post I quoted in that section 
(sorry:(), but it said something very much like what you have said, above.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:18:40 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani & Long Pig...

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> 
>         Can't recall whether I brought this up before my job blew my Xmas
> break to hell, but something has occurred to me:
> 
>         After the Ancients abandoned them, the Vilani basically found
> themselves living in an envronment where much of the life was not ideal for
> supporting Terran-based life, and where in fact some of the stuff that was
> edible required considerable processing to make it so.
> 
>         Wouldn't this mean, therefore, that one of the best sources of
> protein loose on Vland would be... other Vilani?  I'd suspect that a lot of
> early Vilani cuisine would have consisted of
> Those-jerks-from-the-next-valley-over stew...
> 
>         Canon?  Non-canon?  am I out to lunch?

Actually, you are lunch.....
I agree with you, there probably were cannibals. But I imagine the Vilani, like a lot of 
Terran cultures, are masters of rewriting history. And now, to even suggest this could have 
happened would lead to cries of Solomani anti-Vilani racism

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #841
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 13 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 842



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: ElectroStatic Blade
Fixing the wagon
tiger@goldinc.com
Re: ElectroStatic Blade
Re: Is there anyone...
Threat (serious) to TML and readers. . . .
Threat (serious) to TML and readers. . . .
Re: Age of Traveller Players
RE: Fixing the wagon
Re: What happened to the NAH?
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
RE: Vilani and Long Pigs
Re: What happened to the NAH?
Re: Age of Traveller Players
Re: Traveller CD ROM!!- Lets get serious here
Re: T4, TNE, MT, CT and Traveller in general
What is Lightwave?  Lightwave is...
Age of TML members
Re: Age
Melee Weapons
Re: Starships is broken, too!
Re: Age of TML members

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:37:33 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: ElectroStatic Blade

Brad Urwiller wrote:
> 
> Well I did it.  I went ahead and attempted to develope a better melee
> weapon.
> 
> It consists of an Crystal Iron Blade (equivelent volume to a foil), a
> series of .01 MW Batteries in Parallel Connection, A homopolar
> Generator, and an EletroStatic Field Generator.  If anyone is interested
> in exact numbers I can provide them (made in FFS).
> 
> It weighes between 2.5 and 3 kg. And has component volume of 1.8 liters
> (this doesn't include the blade).  The cost is about 5600Cr and is a
> TL15 item.  It has enough power in the battery for 18 full turns of use
> (Turns based on 6 second rounds).  (AND YES THE BODY WAS HEAVILY
> RUGGIDIZED FOR MELEE USE).
> 
> Any ideas on how to calculate damage?
> 
> At a 85% efficiency (TL15 Energy Conversion) it rated at ~.0085 MW
> Now if we go with Laser Damage which is 50*(E^.5) it can do 4D damage
> when powered up and (1D = Foil) or (2D=equivelant broadsword weight)
> when powered down.

Very nice! At 3kg (6.6 lbs), this would seem to be of a weight equal
to, what, a broadsword? A hand and a half, maybe? Sounds pretty
intrigueing for a bodyguard on some medieval tech world.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:45:44 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Fixing the wagon

Along those lines I have been working very hard to do what I can for the
game.  Its called 

                              LIGHTWAVE

...and dgp is back....................................................
Deadeye

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:47:18 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: tiger@goldinc.com

Where is Slidell?  I'm going to be based in Columbus, MS in about 4
months.
Tom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:39:03 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: ElectroStatic Blade

David Smart wrote:

> Very nice! At 3kg (6.6 lbs), this would seem to be of a weight equal
> to, what, a broadsword? A hand and a half, maybe? Sounds pretty
> intrigueing for a bodyguard on some medieval tech world.

Why not just carry a cattleprod?
More fun, and it works great against metal armoured foes
(and doesn't really look like a weapon)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 97 13:58:26 +0000
From: James.Dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au
Subject: Re: Is there anyone...

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On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Joseph Heck said:
     
>Is there anyone out here on the TML other than Ethan and I programming in 
>Java?
     
        Yep, count me in. I am 95% through creating an SSDS program in 
Java. All I have to do are add in the Weapons and Electronics classes and I 
will put it up on my Web page.
     
>I've been creating background classes that others could use for a 
>java-based Animal Encounter table generator (gotta learn Java with 
>_something_) and wanted to maybe arrange some sharing...
     
        I had the same motivation, and it certainly succeeded. The other 
reason is that I have always wanted to write a Starship Construction 
program. 
     
        Anyway, I would more than interested in sharing classes etc and 
knowledge gained!
     
BFN,
James Dempsey
jamesd@spirit.com.au (home)
james.dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au (work)

- --smxr-9701141356041364
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- --smxr-9701141356041364--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:04:16 -0500
From: Ross Coburn <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Threat (serious) to TML and readers. . . .

OK people, listen up.  I tried once before to alert you to the dangers of
harbouring a fugitive from the Tverchadl (sp?) among you, but was ignored.
Not a single ONE of you 'fessed up and delivered unto me one R. Darroch
Elliott, chief technologist for Famille Spofulam Yards and Revisionist
Historian.

Remember people; this is the man who brought you relativistic telephone
poles with fins, drug-running ships disguised as nobles' playthings, bearer
shares, cadillac-finned flying saucers that make the unfortunate Chris Foss
look understated, and now, CANNIBALS AMONG YOU.

Yes indeed, he has managed to convince a number of respondents that the
noble Vilani (well, all Vilani, but I meant to say 'high-minded') feed off
their own species.  Indeed, likely off their own parents, but that part of
his transmission was stopped before it reached the border.

Have any of you noticed that the two weeks he was in Hong Kong recently,
incommunicado, were the quietest the list has seen in a long while?

Coincidence? I think NOT.

Even as we speak, a fleet of relativistic rocks are en route to wherever
you are reading this, piloted by feudal technocrats (a term a friend of
mine defined perfectly from a sociotechnological point of view, before he
was eaten), fueled with virii of all sorts.

This fleet is not planning on dropping themselves on you, however; they are
instead planning on dropping a zillion copies of F, F & S on you.  Some
will find it incomprehensible and promptly die off.  Some will get
annoyingly put out at how simplistic it is.  Most will spend the rest of
their natural lives designing new vessels.  You will have been assimilated.


Have a nice day.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:04:16 -0500
From: Ross Coburn <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Threat (serious) to TML and readers. . . .

OK people, listen up.  I tried once before to alert you to the dangers of
harbouring a fugitive from the Tverchadl (sp?) among you, but was ignored.
Not a single ONE of you 'fessed up and delivered unto me one R. Darroch
Elliott, chief technologist for Famille Spofulam Yards and Revisionist
Historian.

Remember people; this is the man who brought you relativistic telephone
poles with fins, drug-running ships disguised as nobles' playthings, bearer
shares, cadillac-finned flying saucers that make the unfortunate Chris Foss
look understated, and now, CANNIBALS AMONG YOU.

Yes indeed, he has managed to convince a number of respondents that the
noble Vilani (well, all Vilani, but I meant to say 'high-minded') feed off
their own species.  Indeed, likely off their own parents, but that part of
his transmission was stopped before it reached the border.

Have any of you noticed that the two weeks he was in Hong Kong recently,
incommunicado, were the quietest the list has seen in a long while?

Coincidence? I think NOT.

Even as we speak, a fleet of relativistic rocks are en route to wherever
you are reading this, piloted by feudal technocrats (a term a friend of
mine defined perfectly from a sociotechnological point of view, before he
was eaten), fueled with virii of all sorts.

This fleet is not planning on dropping themselves on you, however; they are
instead planning on dropping a zillion copies of F, F & S on you.  Some
will find it incomprehensible and promptly die off.  Some will get
annoyingly put out at how simplistic it is.  Most will spend the rest of
their natural lives designing new vessels.  You will have been assimilated.


Have a nice day.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:04:02 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Age of Traveller Players

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> Folks,
> 
> I hate to think I'm the greybeard here, but I may be.  I'm 45.

Whew! I was getting worried; I'm *only* 37. And I not only have
my original Chainmail, I can remember when lead miniatures first
hit the market at about 85 cents to $1.00 for 8 figures. Nice to
remember the past, but so much more fun to *make* the future.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:18:26 +1000
From: PARISC@complete.com.au (Paris Conte)
Subject: RE: Fixing the wagon

- --_[INTERGATE-SMTP728750928]_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

What is Lightwave?

 -----Original Message-----
From: traveller [SMTP:traveller@MPGN.COM]
Sent: Monday, January 13, 1997 9:46 PM
To: PARISC; traveller
Subject: Fixing the wagon

To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Fixing the wagon
References: <199701131614.KAA23559@longbeach.goldinc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM


Along those lines I have been working very hard to do what I can for the
game.  Its called

                              LIGHTWAVE

.and dgp is back....................................................
Deadeye

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- --_[INTERGATE-SMTP728750928]_--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:18:29 -0500
From: russcm@zoomnet.net (Christopher M. Russell)
Subject: Re: What happened to the NAH?

>I just spoke to Tim Brown, who told me that the FF&S listed on the web 
>site refers to the system currently under development on GDW-Beta.  The 
>final title of the work is indeterminate at this time, and they felt that 
>"Fire, Fusion, & Steel" adequately communicated the subject matter of the 
>book.

When is it due to be released?

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:26:55 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:
<much snippage of very good points>
> 
> That is to say, if you build you own equipment, you don't wnat to loose it,
> you could risk your life for it. Again this Technical complexity add
> roleplaying. Traveller is a "always moving" game, as players move from world
> to world, so they can't have so many contacts as in other "sedentary games"
> (i.e. WW Vampire game). In this game, i've noticed that characters can risk
> there life for what they have which is in that case mainly contacts and
> heaven (home sweet home). In traveller, contacts (other than the ship crew)
> are much rare and less strong (as contacts are not frequently met). So
> equipment is a very important point filling the gap.
> 
> If you don't think about that, the players will become what we call BROSBILL
> in France (i don't know the english expression in English) which represents
> the "Skill Only character with Very Small Background and Very Destructive
> weaponery Just to Get Maximum of Xp". This is the ultimate non roleplaying
> but dice rolling player (aaaaaarrrgghhhhh!)

I believe this would be called a "power player".

> It's not a "superhard-SF cocoon", as for me Traveller is not a true Hard SF
> game but it's the most advanced in that direction (maybe there are others,
> but i don't know them). It has build an architecture base uppon possibility
> which may be false (most of them in fact). Just take a look at the 30's
> vision of the 80's and you'll get a hard laugh. This trueness of the FFS
> vision is not the point. It has imagine a vision which was encapsulated in a
> system by which it could be described and manipulted.
> 
> Now I agree that FFS has many "dark points" which are not clear. But in my 9
> year RPG experienced i have never seen such dense a source book, every page
> is interesting and containt information. It could have been more developped
> and more explained. Nothing is perfect, neither am i. And you ?

Tres bon! Traveller has gone a long way to stretch not only my
imagination
but also to change the way I view things and to ignite a desire to see
things, to become something akin to a "Traveller". I've pulled out
pictures
of places I've been to and realized that I've personally done a number
of
things my characters have done - SCUBA diving around sunken wrecks,
climbing,
travel to foreign lands (including Paris!), information system security
(and hacking), and trying to converse in languages I don't know. FF&S
helped
me understand some of the basics of cold fusion enough to want to find
out
more about it and *that* is the main reason why I enjoyed it so much --
it
*explains* the technology in terms I understand and, thereby, helps it
mean something.

Well, enough of my rambling...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:36:19 -0800
From: "Makens, Brian" <bjm@dsc.com>
Subject: RE: Vilani and Long Pigs

Personally, I am of the opinion that the Vilani did not practice
planetary wide-spread cannibalism. I believe that if the Vilani
practiced
wide-spread cannibalism instead of beating the Solomani to
the stars by several millennium, the Solomani would have instead
found a culture on Vland at about the tech level of 1700 AD 
Papua New Guinea.

With wide-spread diet necessitated cannibalism,  the population
would probably be stuck in hunter-gatherer phase and inhibited
from the population consolidation needed  for agriculture, urbanization
and technological growth.  In a culture where the question "Our new 
friend, you will stay for dinner?" has a double entendre, it takes a lot
of courage to be the new guy in town. 

Simply put, wide-spread cannibalism, would inhibit the formation
of larger population units than the hunting tribe, due to the lack of 
trust. Without large population units, no agriculture, no ironworks,
no starships zooming into the unknown carrying the Vilani way of life.

I know that some cultures like Mayan/Aztec were beyond hunter-gather
and practiced cannibalism. But they practiced RITUAL cannibalism,
not a wide-spread diet necessitated cannibalism.

Wide spread cannibalism, means that you and the jerks next valley over
aren't ever going to get it together to build that town that will let
you have the crop fields to get off the cannibalistic diet program.


BrianM

A Gentle Sophont who is still anxiously scanning the Atlas of the
Imperium,
trying to determine which world  really is the "Planet of  Bikini Clad
Hot Tukera
Stewardesses".  Heard of any good Tukera Lines Discount Fares?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:40:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: What happened to the NAH?

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Christopher M. Russell wrote:

> When is it due to be released?

Check the web site (http://www.imperiumgames.com) for their currently 
planned products for 1997.  Subject to change and all that, but it gives 
you an idea at least. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:51:30 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Age of Traveller Players

J_Lambert wrote:
> 
> I guess I set the record: 51. I've been with Traveller since the beginning,
> but those aging rolls are starting to catch up!

Ah the feeeearless leader!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:52:40 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD ROM!!- Lets get serious here

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Brad Urwiller wrote:

> I'd buy the Traveller CD ROM in a second two.  Whether or not it has 
> rules online I'd just love to see some of the design sequences 
> automated.  For example Character, Animal, Ship design, Vehicle design, 
>  etc.  Plus maybe clipart.  
> 
> What else Maybe a map generator for planets, cities, buildings, etc.  I 
> know their is one on the web maybe we could get one for CD.
> 

Ok folks, lets calm down about making a CD ROM that becomes the next
BattleCruiser 3000AD 

The CDROM idea was to take what was *already* published (aside from T4 of
course) and put it on a CD in text or hypertext format, with (some)
graphics.  Don't think of it as this big development project, just a
republishing of old material in a form that makes it cheap and easy to
distribute.

I believe Roger Sanger gets the credit for the original impetus for the
thing.

I may be completely wrong on all of this, but that was the idea being
kicked around.

Oh, and I for one think it is an excellent idea.

Pete 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:55:25 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: T4, TNE, MT, CT and Traveller in general

Douglas writes:

>I'm not talking about the constant bickering of the 'hard science' vs. the
>'space opera' players, I mean this constant dragging down of the product.
>I agree that there are problems with Traveller, and probably with IG, that
>need addressing and resolution.  But how many times do we have to go over
>the same points, when all that is being contributed is hard feelings?

   The sad truth is that just as it appears that the negative comments
are dying down, IG does something else which gets people in an uproar
again.  I don't see the same points being talked to death, I see people
finding new things wrong with a particular publication, and lamenting
the demise of <fill in the name of your favorite Traveller version
here>.

>Very occasionally, I see someone address a point, and make a suggestion
>for resolving that point, but that seems to be the exception.

   I find the parallels to American sports talk shows on radio to be
striking.  Everybody has an opinion about what is right or wrong with
the team (the game) or individual players (the rulebooks and
supplements).  Many people complain when the team (game) is doing
poorly, and everyone seems to want to jump on the bandwagon when it is
doing well.  Most people have strong opinions about which version of the
team (game) is the best of all time.  Some people believe they have the
answer on how the current generation of the team (game) can be improved
in some fashion.  Of those people who express an opinion, most have
something constructive to add, while some are just blowing a lot of hot
air.  Of course you also have your basic jerks that waste everyone's
time (bandwidth).

   There is one big difference though.  The players of the 1997 New York
Yankees baseball team don't have to compete directly for the affections
of the fans with the players of the 1927 Yankees, or the 1961 Yankees. 
T4 is constantly competing with previous versions of the game for the
fans' interest and dollars.  In that kind of environment, it has to be
at least as good as those previous versions, and/or add something new to
the game or it will not get either interest or dollars.  Given the
competition, and the graffs commited early on, T4 has an uphill struggle
against it.

>That exception, IMHO, is the way to correct problems.  Instead of
>just complaining, let's be proactive and FIX the problems.  If you don't
>like the way a table works, rework it and share it with the rest of us!
>If you don't have a fix, approach the problem as a request for
>assistance, and let the rest of us help.  It's time to move on past the
>problems T4 has had in startup, and start resolving 'em so that we can
>both ENJOY the game (more), and ensure that IG is successful enough to
>continue to feed our habits!  :)

   The problem is, what do you do when you are convinced that the
previous edition that you are playing is such a superior product, you do
not feel the need to purchase the new version?  What do you do when you
no longer have the time or the patience to break in yet another new
version of a game that you already have the bugs worked out of?  These
are questions that must be addressed by IG (afterall, they are the ones
who are trying to sell us something)--and by those who feel disenchanted
with the whole game development process.

Regards,

Harold (who has been doing his fair share of soul searching lately)


I personally run a composite campaign, drawing on all 4 versions for
ideas
and background.  I may not be canon, but I darn well enjoy it, and so
do my players (I hope!)  I've been playing traveller since the early
80's
(CT), running it since the mid-80's.

For those that care, I'm in my mid-30's, as are most of my players
(except for that rogue 21 yr old I just recruited!)

- - --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
      Networking, TCP/IP

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:07:14 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: What is Lightwave?  Lightwave is...

Lightwave is the 3D rendering powerhouse used to produce Bablyon 5, DS9,
STV, and others.  It makes movies, although I'm currently just rendering
stuff in still frames.  See Goram Damberg's page or Dave Golden's to see
what I mean.  Look for:

Wing3001.jpg 
or
Naryanganjo Corridor(same, different name)

That is one of my earliest renders. I'm sure you'll like it I'd like to
know what you all think.  

Deadeye

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 22:09:01 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Age of TML members

Well, I'm 31.  My first experience with role playing, like many of 
you, was with D&D way back in 1981.  I'm not afraid to state that I 
think D&D is an excellent system and my game of choice for many 
years.

I first picked up Traveller in 1982 with Starter Traveller, and I've 
been a Traveller junkie ever since.  For the last 15 years, I've 
pretty much role played consistently, and I'm known for my epic 
campaings.  From 1989 to 1994, I ran an epic D&D campaign with the 
same players.  I took a 2 year break, the longest I've ever taken 
from role playing, and started my current Traveller campaign.  

My players range in age, now, from mid-twenties to early thirties.

And, I guess that's it.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:19:22 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Age

Susan M. Shock wrote:
> 
> I'm 35, and have been playing Traveller on and off since 1979. My players
> range from 42 to 19. I also have 4 women in my group, which I understand is
> a bit non-standard :)
>                                                         Allen

Must be nice. Some of the best role-players I've gamed with
have been female...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:19:43 -0800
From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Subject: Melee Weapons

Okay let me reiterate.

I think that melee weapons are NOT the idea of a madman in a T4 
campaign. A then it dawn's on me it depends on the GM.  Myself and the 
GM's I know are a little stringent with the reality of a situation.  For 
instance, Most worlds we travel on would restrict the weapons that can 
be carried to shotguns and pistols or at the least pathetic rifles.  In 
addition we have played (I beleive this is mentioned in the rules) that 
at contact range no ranged weapon may be used for firing.  More often 
than not Contact range gets closed to.  Especially in a ship or a small 
room.  The benefits of Contact range are many.  There at least in melee 
you can dodge blows and few will fire into your fight.  

Plus when on a starship who wants to chance being blown into space.  So 
for the above reasons I beleive melee weapons should be given more 
status.  I realize ranged weapons are definatly the preferred weapon but 
hey that broadsword can come in handy!

Brad Urwiller
ravyn@ptw.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:27:01 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Starships is broken, too!

Phillip McGregor writes:  

>Exactly. There are very few people out there who care enough about the
>"bullshittium" aspects of the game to make something like FF&S worthwhile
>for a *mass market*. We must *not* go the way of FF&S again if the game is
>to survive and grow -- despite the moans and groans from the few and
>unrepresentative techies (flame retardant underwear *on*!)

   Like it or not, FF&S addressed a need in the game.  If there was not
that need in Traveller, products like G^3 would have never been
developed in the first place.

   That fact is that you grossly underestimate the number of people out
there who like to tinker with designs.  Not everybody likes to design
everything (some guy might love designing detailed starships, but could
give a rat's behind about designing small arms), but if you take into
account all those things that people like to tinker with this or that,
you end up with something that looks an awful lot like FF&S.

  If the "Mod I, Mk 1" version of FF&S had a fault, IMHO, it was that
there was not nearly enough design examples, and no predesigned
equipment tables or modular equipment to speak of (like that found in
the two starship design sequences in T4).  GDW would have done well to
print this kind of material in a "FF&S Design Assistant" manual. 
Needless to say, I would have also paid large dollars for a CD-ROM
version of such a book, complete with design spreadsheets for all the
design sequences in FF&S.  IG would do well to publish "FF&S Mod II, Mk
I", so long as they also publish the other material as well.

>I don't ever even want to learn how! I'm a historian and english teacher, 
>not a engineering or maths one -- and I don't want to be!

   I have a BA in History from a state university.  I have learned to
use Excel to the point that I can now crank out a gauss weapon design
using FF&S in less than 15 minutes.  Phil, it's called the end of the
20th century.  Join us before you get left behind.

>Look, Greg Porter did the right thing with 3G^3. Step by step *sequential*
>design sequences -- and, yes, despite the formulae I don't mind using it --
> *AND* he made available a *very* professionally produced Spreadsheet
>program that mechanises it for a modest cost. T4 needs to do the former and
>would be well advised to do the latter -- and include it in the cost of the
>product, if necessary.

   OK folks, note the time and date: Phil and I agree on something, and
the world has not ended.  Perhaps there is hope for Middle East peace
yet.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:34:22 -0500
From: Grahame Curtis <gcurtis@morgan.com>
Subject: Re: Age of TML members

Hi All,
        Another TML member decloaks.

I'm 31... started in '77 with the original D&D and "The Keep on the 
Borderlands" - previously to a friend introducing me to RPGs I had
been a complete SPI fanatic (yes, I have the Stargate trilogy! |-))
Moved quickly on to Traveller as soon as it was available, enthused
at RuneQuest II, through many others (including, notably, Pendragon,
CoC, Bushido, T2K, Dark Conspiracy and Ars Magica), settled on GURPS
for a while, flirted with LARPGs for a while in England (I'm English 
by the way), revisted MT (love it...warts and all), felt sorry for
TNE and came back to Traveller again with T4. 
        Liked the new rulebook, but thought that Starships was a bit 
of a ripoff... good for the ship design stuff but why, oh, why just
repeat the same ships (pretty much) that ALL other revisions of Traveller
have done... at least MT got away with only 8 pages to do the same...
that on top of Trader and Gunboats!

        Personally, when I run my next Traveller campaign, I'll still
be using teh MT rules (with errata |-( ). However, I *will* definitely
be buying up the background books and keeping an eye on the sourcebooks.
After all, the differences between CT, MT and T4 are not *that* big a
deal!

Cheers,
Grahame

*** Reactivate lurk mode...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #842
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 14 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 843



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Aramis Subsector
Re: Calling Out the Ten
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #842
Re: Is there anyone...
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #842
[none]
Re: FF&S too complex, yadda yadda. :)
Re: Is there anyone...
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #842
Re: Is there anyone... 
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: Lots of complaints
Re: Melee weapons
Re: No, It's not traveller any more....
Re: M0 V Stars: Tidal Locking & Generation issues
Das new guy
Re: Das new guy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #843
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 14 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 844



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Stuff & Recipes
Starships: What is needed
Age of players
White dwarf and main sequence stars
Vehicle Size
traffic and age
Age, Sex and Other Interesting Things
Re: Vilani & Long Pig...
Re: Melee weapons
Vilani with the munchies...
Ross' libelous scribblings...
Another of the Ten
Age of TML members
Re: Age of Traveller Players
Re: Age of TML members
Lotsa stuff to get off my chest, kinda L

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 07:46:00 GMT 
From: e.gutierrez3@genie.com
Subject: Stuff & Recipes

>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>
>> That said, has anyone come up with an grav (or other propulsion) APC like
>> the one in 'Aliens'? Anyone know where the 'real-world' (chortle) stats of
>> that vehicle are? Like rough displacement, size, carrying capacity, etc.?

>I don't know about stats but Revel I think it was put out a model kit for
>it a few years back, it probably had stats.

>Joe Hamrick                              rguy@cdsnet.net

Also Leading Edge did both the Apc & the Drop Ship in 25mm, have had the
Apc for three years haven't put it together yet thou..

The 'real-world' stats for the apc are similar to an airport's
Crash truck which the working model in the movie was based on.

Kenneth Bearden
>I want to start a different kind of uproar.  I WANT TO LET IG KNOW
>THAT THEY HAVE TAKEN A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION!

>I like CSC, ALIENS, and JTAS, and I want to let them know that this
>is the type of stuff I want to see.

Ditto, nope, Mega Dittos... 8-)
Add my Thumbs Ken.

>And no. I'm not being sarcastic.
>Long Live The Imperium!

>- -- Jay Stranahan,
>Redneck Tech Writer At Large

Amen Brother, Try to be a gearhead with a active Toddler,( Who loves
Traveller, Esp. books with salt. Well also as a bedtime story)

Roderick Darroch Elliott
>Subject: Vilani & Long Pig...

>        Wouldn't this mean, therefore, that one of the best sources of
>protein loose on Vland would be... other Vilani?  I'd suspect that a lot of
>early Vilani cuisine would have consisted of
>Those-jerks-from-the-next-valley-over stew...
>        Canon?  Non-canon?  am I out to lunch?

It would explain a lot. But wouldn't Those-jerks-from-the-next-valley-over
Jerky be better? Or how 'bouts a nice fricassee. Now if you take ground
Vilani, K'kree and Vargr you could have hot dogs. (no pun intended.)
Then if you add some ground Hiver and some corn meal batter, you got
corn dogs. This is a tribute to reading the labels of my little ones
favorite foods ;-)a

A Traveller CD.. Cool, would buy one right after I replace my Computer
(A folding Mac+, PB100)

From: Tom Lane
>In response to Joe Walsh's insight as to the necessity of new gamers, do
>we have anyone under 25 years old on the list?  What is the average age
>of the list.  i.e. Are we dinosaurs?

Since '79 and still going.. (Am 30 if that matters, the short one is 16
months)

Btw I am still looking for more players in the Greater Reno-Tahoe area.
I have started running a CT era game and the more the merrier.

MacDude..
Definitions:
geek: Has a complete collection of Challenge and
will starve before selling.
nerd: Has a complete collection of Challenge and
will sell before starving.

From the collected wisdom of
Jim 'Deadboy' Heath
Casino Mercenary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:13:02 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Starships: What is needed

OK, instead of whining :-) I've decided to give some thought to how the
design system could be improved --

1) It *MUST* be sequential. That is, you do Step #1, follow with Step #2
and then on to Step #3, #4 etc. There must be *NO* steps that must be
completed from further down in the sequence before you can complete a step
higher in the sequence. (Yes, I *know* that even in High Guard there was
some need to fiddle with the PPlant once the initial design sequence was
done to make sure all the weapons could be powered -- the point is, you
could actually complete all the calculations *before* the final fiddling.
You cannot do this in FF&S -- unless you have a Spreadsheet ... and T4 will
*FAIL* if we assume that all the potential market have home computers, have
spreadsheets, and know how to not only use both to maximum effect, but have
the time and knowledge to create a Spreadsheet program to do all the
scutwork).

This will probably mean that some assumptions will have to be made that
will lessen the "realism" (which is, as has been pointed out,
"bullshittium" anyway) ... and, sure, *explain* what the assumptions are,
and offer an alternative for those self-flagellating gearheads who glory in
such irrelevant minutiae! ;-)

The ideal to follow here is the *very* simple to use, but extremely
accurate and detailed 3G^3 (that's "Guns, Guns, Guns 3rd Edition" from BTRC
and by Greg Porter for those wjho don't know ... and any self-respecting
{isn't that a contradiction in terms ;-)} "gearhead" who doesn't have it
*must* get it ... the new edition is just out and well worth it!!!) ...
even a mathematical klutz like me (I'm a history/english teacher for a
*reason*, guys ... I was no good at maths! I could memorise all the
formulae in the textbook, but I could never seem to match them up with the
problems in the exams ... yet even *I* can use 3G^3 to good effect). It
*IS* possible.

2) If you *MUST* have a non-sequential design sequence, then for ghu's sake
do what Greg Porter did (though he didn't *need* to do it, so simple and
easy to use are the design sequences in 3G^3), and provide a professionally
done *Spreadsheet* with the game. It would probably be a good idea even
*if* you do adopt a sequential design process. Any *really serious*
gearhead will *WANT* it -- even if it cost an extra $5-10, I would suspect.

3) As has been suggested, delete all the excess steps. You don't really
need to know the homopolar generator size to create an NPAWS ... no-one
would suggest that 3G^3 is anything but superdetailed and superaccurate,
and *it* doesn't see the need for such nit-picky irrelevance. Collapse them
into one -- have a general formula for NPAWS (or whatever).

For example. Do we really care how many airlocks a given hull size needs?
Or how many cargo locks? This is bullshittium at its worst. It should be
subsumed in the 20% allowance that is hallowed back to CTrav days to allow
deckplans to "make sense". And, after all, it is only *one persons* (well,
maybe several had a hand in it) *OPINION* of what would be needed. 

4) Give both Tables of general data *and* the formula (both a *simplified*
*optimised* one and a nit-pickers one, if necessary) for working out
intermediate steps. So if you desperately *want* a 125 ton Scoutship, you
can design it.

This is more or less what 3G^3 does, and it works.

5) Take the "classic" ships that exist and reverse engineer them so that
the *new* system works with them. In other words, don't change the classic
hallowed traditional prices (c. 20 or so MCr for a Type S Scout, for
example), change the g*****n system so that it *gives* those prices (or
close to them). Its the system thats broken, not the prices!

6) Make sure than an average person (not an engineering or computer science
graduate) with a *normal* calculator (or even pencil and paper) can design
a civilian ship in no more than 15 minutes, and a military ship in no more
than 30 minutes (yes, I know that QSDS can more or less do this, but
*Staships/NAH* *HAS* to be able to do this as well). *Completely* design,
from front to back, beginning to end ... at least at the moderately complex
level. If someone wants to use the fine tuning option, who cares if they
take six months do get it "just right" or not :-)

7) In your standard designs presented in the book, give more detail on what
goes in them than the "standard" form, which is patently inadequate for
reverse engineering or customising them.

Well, thats what *I* think, anyway.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:39:57 GMT
From: Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk>
Subject: Age of players

>>Traveller has definitely piqued my interest in things scientific and
>>mathematical, but I have to give D&D credit with jump-starting my imagination
>>and vocabulary, as well as my appreciation of mythology.

I'm 32 years old.  I started playing D&D I was 13 or 14.  I was press-ganged
into a game by a classmate I then hardly knew, and I still play with the
same group.  I started Traveller a year or so later.  In those days there
was only one shop in Glasgow that sold RPG stuff; it was only open on
saturday mornings and was in an anonymous office building that you could not
find by accident!

The comments in the quote above apply to me too, and must be the very best
advert for RPGs.

Bye for now

Jamie Young

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:39:23 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: White dwarf and main sequence stars

A weekago, Dedl worte:

>I'm no expert but I do know that there are some things that need to cleared
>up:
>
>There are no green stars.
>Type      Color
>B            Bluish-White
>A            White
>F            Yellowish-White

Which I agree that's not the black body radiation which gives the color (but
indirectly). I was wrong)


>V- Main Sequence Stars are not dwarves. D is the notation for Dwarf.

I disagree with this point. The Sun is a Dwarf stars which is on the main
sequence the MK rating is G2V. D rating is for white dwarfs which are
degenerate stars the only MK rating are DB, DA, DF, DG. DK and DM are too
dim to be observed outside the system. There another value is DC white dwarf
which has a continuous specter and has no equivalency in the main sequence.

White dwarfs are the end of evolution of dwarf ('small' if you don't like
'dwarf') stars (Sun's fate). Those stars have very different parameters form
ordinary main sequence (dwarf) or giant stars

They are rocky inside, meanwhile the temperature is very high (not so high
as in a living star) but it can reach 1,000,000 K. The surface temperature
is also very different from usual stars: DB is at 100,000K and DG are around
4,000 K. DK and DM have a lower surface temperature but are consider to be
'black dwarfs' because they cannot be observed (this is NOT neutron stars).
The temperature of White Dwarfs lower slowly and fall in an non observable
value. I seems to be relatively fast compared to the total life.

White dwarfs are the last state of stars which have a masse less than 1,4
time the sun mass. Over this value, the electrons are crushed into the
kernel and the star becomes an neutron star (instead of a white dwarf) which
is much smaller and much heavier(per volume unit). The radius or a neutron
star is around 10Km (i think)

I took time to answer because I ahd to check my data more precisely

- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 01:55:04 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Vehicle Size

One thing I approve of in CSC is that the dimensions of the vehicles are
mentioned on both the tables and the write-ups.  It's also nice that they
are more reasonable now.  The old CT 4 ton air raft was always descried as
like a large car.  However, at 4 disp tons (56 m3) it would actually be
5.9 m x 3 m x 3 m this is notably larger than my living room, and somewhat
larger than the largest van I've ever seen.  It's basically the size of a
small delivery truck.  Even the nifty IISS Hurricane air raft which is
only 3 disp tons is 5.4 m x 2.8 m x 2.8 m (around the size of a very large
van).  A reasonable air raft will be between 1 and 2 disp tons, much like
the Rolen Ploitesse described in CSC. 

It looks like time to shrink the vehicle bay on scout ships to maybe 4
disp (cramped hanger for a 2 ton craft or roomy for 1).  The 6 ton (MT) or
8 ton (TNE) hanger is simply unnecessary. 
  

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 11:04 GMT
From: walker@esc.cam.ac.uk (Greg Walker)
Subject: traffic and age

yes, the email has been filling up rather rapidly...

and I'm 22

greg

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:03:43 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Age, Sex and Other Interesting Things

Actually, the title is misleading. This is another post to say how old
someone is. It's me. I'm 30. For my birthday in November I got a cake with a
painted icing copy of the picture on the cover of the MT Ref's manual. It
was so good I'm having it framed (sad, eh?). :-)

Of the two groups I game in, one has up to 9 players of 22 to 35 (3 women),
the other has 5 players of 30-35 (2 women). I've been playing Traveller
about 19 years, AD&D for a little less. We alternate Traveller with D&D,
AD&D, Call of Chthulu and Ars Magica. Thankfully my wife plays in both
groups, otherwise I'd have had to give up RPGs some years back!

I've introduced some youngsters to Traveller 4 at the BITS stalls at various
conventions, as well as re-introducing a lot of older players whose catch
line was "I used to play this back when it was the little black books...".
This has included Jo Grant and myself running a 1-2 hour demo game every 2
hours over a 10-12 hour day for 3-4 days in succession, resulting in several
thousand dollars of sales for T4 books (rules plus our own products: TLWH,
etc.).

We hope that our dedication to promoting Traveller will be reflected in IG
approving most of the product line which we are sending them as part of the
1997 proposals from CORE. :-)

Andy

P.S. I'm not worried about aging rolls - I've been on anagathics for years
(hence apparent physical age of 7).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:35:33 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Vilani & Long Pig...

(Roderick Darroch Elliott) wrote:

>        After the Ancients abandoned them, the Vilani basically found
>themselves living in an envronment where much of the life was not ideal for
>supporting Terran-based life, and where in fact some of the stuff that was
>edible required considerable processing to make it so.
>        Wouldn't this mean, therefore, that one of the best sources of
>protein loose on Vland would be... other Vilani?  I'd suspect that a lot of
>early Vilani cuisine would have consisted of
>Those-jerks-from-the-next-valley-over stew...

        I think "canon" is pretty silent about this, but certainly you could
assume that some of the early Vilani communities evolved this way. And,
certainly, others became vegetarian for a while, and others starteds eating
their own deads... but the communities that became dominant were those that,
after a while, found the way to process native food into all that Vilani
bodies needed (goving birth to the Shugilii).
        This could give us an interesting insight into ancient Vilani
history: the early fights between Shugilii-groups and cannibals (made even
worse by the presence of Ancient giant warbots).
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                          (34) 6 5903614
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      Fax: (34) 6 5903685
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 06:50:25 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

Mused wrote:

>
>ummm, no.
>The bayonet is a tool, not a weapon
>It caused less than 0.25% of the casualties in the US Civil War (and they
>used them a lot)
>They are useless as a weapon. They are a tool, a morale booster, and
>stinkin' heavy for a
>knife


        Well, there are bayonets, and then there are bayonets.  The one for
the Brit Lee-Enfield was essentially just a spike on a lug; no cutting
edge, no handle.  Useless for anything but poking holes in people.

        The Crimean war Brit yatakang bayonet I inherited from my
grandfather otoh is a short sword; it's easily 2' long, with this nasty
forward dip in the foible of the blade, and a minimal hilt.  I figure that
they must have tried to combine infantry sword and bayonet into one item
when they came up with that one...  and it sort of changes the rifle into a
pole arm, not a pike.  Scary.

<that's not a bayonet... now *this* is a bayonet!>

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick D. Elliott... rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca              |
|                        elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca           |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| "...an imperfect plan implemented immediately and violently |
| will always succeed better than a perfect plan."            |
|                        -Gen. George S. Patton.              |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 06:50:28 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Vilani with the munchies...

Mused wrote:

[snippage]

>>
>>         Wouldn't this mean, therefore, that one of the best sources of
>> protein loose on Vland would be... other Vilani?  I'd suspect that a lot of
>> early Vilani cuisine would have consisted of
>> Those-jerks-from-the-next-valley-over stew...
>>
>>         Canon?  Non-canon?  am I out to lunch?
>
>Actually, you are lunch.....
>I agree with you, there probably were cannibals. But I imagine the Vilani,
>like a lot of
>Terran cultures, are masters of rewriting history. And now, to even
>suggest this could have
>happened would lead to cries of Solomani anti-Vilani racism


        Oh yeah...  I read you.  In the background package I just
distributed to my players yesterday evening, I mention this, state that
cannibalism was outlawed for most of the First Imperium, and that calling
Vilani cannibals is a baseless ethnic slur :).


Brian Makens wrote:

>
>Personally, I am of the opinion that the Vilani did not practice
>planetary wide-spread cannibalism. I believe that if the Vilani
>practiced
>wide-spread cannibalism instead of beating the Solomani to
>the stars by several millennium, the Solomani would have instead
>found a culture on Vland at about the tech level of 1700 AD
>Papua New Guinea.
>
>With wide-spread diet necessitated cannibalism,  the population
>would probably be stuck in hunter-gatherer phase and inhibited
>from the population consolidation needed  for agriculture, urbanization
>and technological growth.  In a culture where the question "Our new
>friend, you will stay for dinner?" has a double entendre, it takes a lot
>of courage to be the new guy in town.
>
>Simply put, wide-spread cannibalism, would inhibit the formation
>of larger population units than the hunting tribe, due to the lack of
>trust. Without large population units, no agriculture, no ironworks,
>no starships zooming into the unknown carrying the Vilani way of life.
>
>I know that some cultures like Mayan/Aztec were beyond hunter-gather
>and practiced cannibalism. But they practiced RITUAL cannibalism,
>not a wide-spread diet necessitated cannibalism.
>
>Wide spread cannibalism, means that you and the jerks next valley over
>aren't ever going to get it together to build that town that will let
>you have the crop fields to get off the cannibalistic diet program.
>


        OTOH, your examples are all based on Terran examples, where the
plant and animal life is, of course, largely edible.  Vland was a whole
different ballgame; while a comfortable planet, it was nowhere near as
hospitable in terms of food resources as Terra was.  I'd suggest that
instead of being an impediment, in the marginal environment of Vland
cannibalism of some sort may well have provided those Vilani groups that
practiced it enough of an advantage that they were able to eventually
overcome the non-cannibals, consolidate, build up a civilization, and wean
themselves from the Long Pig habit by improving other methods of local food
production.  I could see this happening if they only ate some of their
defeated enemies and enslaved and eventually assimilated the rest...

        And another point; if the cannibalism practiced was essentially
exogenous, it certainly explains their taste for communal living and other
communally-oriented aspects of their culture... "you can't eat me, I'm part
of the group!"

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick D. Elliott... rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca              |
|                        elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca           |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| "...an imperfect plan implemented immediately and violently |
| will always succeed better than a perfect plan."            |
|                        -Gen. George S. Patton.              |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 06:50:32 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Ross' libelous scribblings...

Ross Coburn slanderously wrote:

>
>OK people, listen up.  I tried once before to alert you to the dangers of
>harbouring a fugitive from the Tverchadl (sp?) among you, but was ignored.
>Not a single ONE of you 'fessed up and delivered unto me one R. Darroch
>Elliott, chief technologist for Famille Spofulam Yards and Revisionist
>Historian.
[snippage]
>annoyingly put out at how simplistic it is.  Most will spend the rest of
>their natural lives designing new vessels.  You will have been assimilated.
>
>
>Have a nice day.
>

        This, of course, is entirely baseless.  If there is anyone here
worthy of being denounced in this manner, it's Ross, who is a model example
of the sadistic, evil, demented GM from the nether regions.  He's just
worried that now that I'm running a campaign, retribution for his
multifarous past sins will come due.

        Of course, his fears are groundless.  I would never in a million
years stoop to his level.  His character (a rather well-done former scout,
I must say), will recieve the same fair and impartial treatment that I will
mete out to all characters.  Ross's delusions of persecution are merely the
product of a very guilty conscience.


PS: Ross, Isaac wouldn't happen to wear a moustache, now would he?

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick D. Elliott... rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca              |
|                        elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca           |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| "...an imperfect plan implemented immediately and violently |
| will always succeed better than a perfect plan."            |
|                        -Gen. George S. Patton.              |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 97 23:22:18 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Another of the Ten

I'm looking forward to 1997.

Last Thursday I went to my FLGS (Ground Zero in Bellevue, NE) to see if
anything new was in and lo! my wondering eyes beheld the Central Supply
Catalog and the Aliens Archive.  I grabbed a copy of CSC, choked briefly
when I saw the price, then bought it anyway.

Glancing over it, I realized that it was good.  Not that there isn't room
for improvement, but overall, the CSC is the best product released so far
by IG (I've only glanced at the AA, and I have no use for a collection of
minor races just yet, so I won't try to review it).

Comments:
Motif:  I love the cover designs of the books so far.  The black background
with a single red band and bright illo harkens back to the old days of
Traveller.  Very minimalist, very powerful.  Very eye-grabbing.

Layout:  Very well done.  They didn't break up the design rules with eight
pages of useless color plates this time.  I like that.  The catalog section
is well-organized and readable.  Placing the rules for equipment use in the
pages nearest the descriptions of the equipment they govern is a nice
touch.  It saves us from the page-flipping "okay, I've found it, now how do
we use it?" routine.  Whoever decided to call the medkit a "KIA" should be
slapped, though.
  One thing that would have been nice is an index.

Interior Artwork:  The black-and-whites are well done, much better than
those in the T4 rulebook.  There is room for improvement though.  For
example:
  The laser cutter (p.31):  I thought rings around the barrels of laser
weapons went out with the '50s.  Maybe they're supposed to be focusing
magnets or something.
  Civilian ATV (p.79):  Looks like it belongs at a monster truck rally. 
With those immense rear wheels and dinky front tires, it's more of a "no
terrain vehicle".  Well, at least it doesn't look "melted".
  Heavy Tank (p.83):  Why does it look like it's moving backwards?  Maybe
because the turret is pointing toward the taller end of the tracks.
  Rolen Politesse (p.85):  Looks pretty slick, but how does the driver see
over its hood?  Ah.  Radar.
  Cargo Manipulator (p.90):  Um... right.  Whatever.  You know, I'm
seriously beginning to wonder about Foss' fascination with huge claw-like
things... It's a bit too Freudian to me.
  Type II Bot (p.91):  Looks cool, but what the hell does it /do/?  Using
the logic of "form follows function", I can only assume that it's a
jet-propelled, radar guided, gravitic bowling ball.
  
Design Rules:  It only took me a few days of reading and experimentation to
figure out building a vehicle.  Of course, familiarity with FF&S probably
helped.  My first attempt was to re-create the Vargr Jetbikes I posted here
a few days ago, and I'm happy to say I succeeded.  The design I came up
with may even be better in some ways than the original.  IG may have
sacrificed a little detail to the great gods of Playability, but that's
okay.  Only a few questions:
  Why don't the Aircraft and HP Aircraft propulsion systems need any
surface area?
  Why do Thruster plates have a minimum thrust of 400 tons, when in
Starships they can provide thrust as low as 100 tons?
  Is 1.0 kl really enough space for an interior crew position?  This seems
a little small to me.
  Do crew positions include controls, or is it just the seat?
  How do you calculate power usage for weapons?  If a laser uses
"0.018MW/hr/turn", what exactly does that mean?  Can a MHD power plant
producing 0.300Mw power it, or does it need an enormous bank of batteries
to operate?  If so, why?  Can't a power plant, running continuously,
produce enough power to run the weapon each turn?

  And finally...
  Why did IG decide to charge $22.95 for a 96 page supplement, when the
original T4 rules ran for 190 pages and only cost $25 (soft)?  Have
printing costs really gone up that much, or is it just another extension of
"what the market will bear?"  

  That's it for now.  Pricing aside, the CSC was a welcome surprise after
Starships.  If everything IG releases this year is as good or better than
this, I think we'll all have a pretty darn good year.

 
Jeff Kazmierski

P.S.  I'm 28.  Does this make me an "old timer?"
- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\      "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________
        odysseus@novia.net
  http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:37:45 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Age of TML members

        OK, I am 26, and I am an assistant prof. of Maths in an Economics
Faculty. I played CT for two years after it was released here in Spanish,
and have been playing MT six years after that. The age of my players varies
widely, from 19 to 34, but I am not telling names... ;-)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                          (34) 6 5903614
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      Fax: (34) 6 5903685
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:37:02 -0500 (EST)
From: athol-brose <cinnamon@one.net>
Subject: Re: Age of Traveller Players

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, David Smart wrote:
> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> > Folks,
> > I hate to think I'm the greybeard here, but I may be.  I'm 45.
> Whew! I was getting worried; I'm *only* 37. And I not only have
> my original Chainmail, I can remember when lead miniatures first
> hit the market at about 85 cents to $1.00 for 8 figures. Nice to
> remember the past, but so much more fun to *make* the future.

What the heck: I'm 24, and have been playing Traveller since...

...1996. I purchased MegaTraveller way back when , but didn't know they
put out any errata -- and my local game store at the time was more
interested in running the WWII museum in the basement than the
game-and-model part of their store and it's no wonder they were taken over
by the mall's arcade and used to house video games. We never played it,
and after seeing some of the glaring errors, I never bothered to finish
reading it.

I started roleplaying in second grade when a friend who barely knew what
he was doing brought in blue-set Basic D&D and "Into the Unknown". A group
of friends and I were hooked. We were given time off from class two days a
week to sit in the hall and role-play.

athol-brose -- cinnamon@one.net -- http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon/

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 97 08:40:48 EST
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Re: Age of TML members

Well, so far as I can cull I'm not the oldest monitoring this list (32 next
week). <phew!>
Started my gaming with Traveller as a reaction to the cliques and
psychophantery surrounding TSR stuff. Converted my group to Twilight2000v1
rules in a Traveller environment in '87-'88 (Exact dates escape me), but then
GDW went to 2.0 for everything and nobody in my group liked it. Alas. We
started okaying something else, but I did what I could to keep curent on Trav
issues. Now, T4, and NOBODY in Central VT plays SciFi (though some of the
students on campus play StarWars). 
Remembering the days, fondly....

- -j

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:11:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Lotsa stuff to get off my chest, kinda L

Greetings! The Commander is back with another fun filled Rabbid Rant, or is 
that Rabbid Rabbit, get the Holy Hand Grenade!

Number one....The Larch....no wait, I mean....
Number one, More Info on me.

Heres some more info, infonauts!  You know I'm 26. But my group ages 
19,22,23,26(me),and 27.  The group is all Trav newbies(ah, fresh meat!) and 
we all live in the SAME HOUSE and only 2 people(not including me) are 
related in any way.  Imagine a home full of Generation X gamers, living in a 
total Marxist style Wohnengemienshaft!(sp?) where everybody plays nice and 
shares their toys!  Be afraid, be verrrrrrry afraid!  :) Sounds like an MTV 
show dud'in it? (Next on MTV's Real Galaxy....)

2. And Now for something completely different.
Want a simple vehicle you can make in the privacy of your own home?  How 
about the do it youself hoverboard kit!   Just go down to the local "Comm 
Shack" and buy the smallest posible grav plate you can find,  Hook that baby 
up to a power cell, add a control panel and CPU to control the hover and 
thrust then put the thing on some nice composite board material. Hop on 
board, crank up the power and Viola!  You' re flyin!  This can be done at 
TL-9  but not real "FUN" untill TL-12

Go ahead, try it out with CSC's VDS, its easy.  The add "accesories" like a 
HUD, microthrusters, more control and programs.   I have made a sport out of 
this In my campain. Complete with "Contests" the PC can or must enter as a 
Macguffin.  It's cool little things like this in the game that make it 
enjoyable IMNSHO.  Enjoy!

3.  And now a rabid rant for the Delux Ed. CD-ROM
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAWWWWW!
WAY TO GO!  Make it so!

Thank you.

4. Traveller Psionic Training for wannabe Jedi's
So you wanna deflect lasers with your electro-sword eh.  OK hotshot! Gimmie 
a 3.5D(Staggering roll) against the Average of your Telepathy and Awareness, 
and yes you must have both to do this.   Telepathy will allow you to "feel" 
your opponents action, and Awareness will give you "Psionicaly Enhanced 
Dexterity(temporarily)" in order to move your body in such a quick way as to 
delfect the shot.
Point cost?  2 per try!  Getting drained yet?  Even a Zho Duke can only have 
up to 15 so you can do this for 7 actions, rolling each time in combat, 
untill you get drained and "KA-POW".  Of course, there is that rule on 
overuse of PSI, and PSI drugs, that is if you want to fry your brain. :)

5.And now an anouncement
Anyone in the South East US near Jacksonville,FL  there is a convention 
there Around the 22nd of Feb, called JaxCon.  I will be running Traveller, 
other games will be run, and some guy will have his 16 PC LAN Multiplayer 
game setup.   For more info e-mail jaxcon@aol.com.  I will be beta-testing 
my adventure "Planet X"  that weekend there.  Hope to see you there, just 
look for Commander X! :)

6. There is NO number 6.

7. Final to Tom Lane about Slidel.  Slidel is a town some 30 min north of 
New Orleans, LA  I have an old Hi-School chum who lives there, unfotuneately 
he is not currently on-line :(

8.  PS  the Communications shutdown MAY, i repeat MAY, become resolved this 
Afternoon(EST).  IRC er's  If I arrive you will know.  :)

This concludes this LOOOONG post by the Commander.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #844
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 14 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 845



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: People in T4 art
praise and timeliness
White dwarf and main sequence stars
empty owner-traveller@phaser.mgpn.com messages
Re: empty owner-traveller@phaser.mgpn.com messages
Re: empty owner-traveller@phaser.mgpn.com messages
Re: empty owner-traveller@phaser.mgpn.com messages
Starship Beowolf
Re: CANNIBALS!!!
Re: CANNIBALS!!!
Re: Cargo Prices
Re: Cargo Prices
Propulsion Systems
Age, Design Sequences and CDROMs
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #844
Re: Calling Out the Ten
Re: Das new guy
The evil that big brothers do (was: FF&S too complex
Age...
Traveller CDrom
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question
Re: Age

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:29:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: People in T4 art

> From: Harley Grantham <harley@wavetech.net>
> 
> And finally a quick comment on the Foss art.  The thing I think that is 
> missing here is people.  Foss doesn't draw people, he draws ships, 
> vehicles, spacesuits and buildings.  But Traveller is a roleplaying game. 
>  It's about people. Sure there's room for a picture of starships flying 
> around from time to time, but the most powerful and most memorable 
> artwork associated with the game centers around people. (Where in this 
> context, aliens are people too. :)  Look at the covers of the 
> Megatraveller Encyclopedia or Player's Handbook, or the Rebellion 
> Sourcebook.  It's the people that make those pictures memorable.  And 
> it's the portrayal of aliens as "people" in the art in the old contact 
> articles that make those pictures work.  The art in Alien Archives fails 
> to do this. 

Yes, yes, YES! I was just thinking this on my way to work this morning...
The only people in all of the T4 art I've seen so far are in the
Elmore b/w pictures. People keep asking - what is 'Travelleresque'
art? How about a definition by example - the covers of the Rebellion
Sourcebook, Hivers, Vargr, Solomani and Zhodani. And you know what
those are all pictures of? PEOPLE! Doing stuff! Dressed in funny local
costumes (or rubber suits for the Vargr)! Traveller is not and never
has been a game about starships. That would be Starfleet Battles.
The insides of the greates supplements, the 2 DGP Alien modules
were packed not with pictures of stuff, but people! By more than
one artist too! (Hey! Exclamation marks!) Now, pictures of stuff
are OK too, as long as the stuff isn't MELTING!!! Since when has
saggy equalled futuristic? Anyways, if IG wants to improve the 
quality of art in its supplements, get a couple of decent artists,
show them a bunch of old Trav art and say "yeah, do something more
or less like this".

On a positive note, I have to commend IG for sticking with a clean
design philosophy, unlike those unreadable WW books. Eeuugh. I think
Alien Archive was a good start towards better art, but why only 
preliminary/concept sketches? Does real art cost more than 
half-assed sketches? Probably, because IT DOESN'T LOOK CHEAP!!!
Ooops, that wasn't positive. Anyways, keep at it IG.

> Oh yes, and for the record, I'm 39.

When this thread last come up? I remember it happening
once before at least, maybe this qualifies me for 'TML Old Fogey'
status. Anyways, I'm 25 and have been playing Trav for...well,
forever it seems. Somehow, and I was just thinking about this
the other day, I managed to purchase all of the CT Alien modules
before grade 10... and I have no memory of it whatsoever. Also,
surprisingly enough, I was kind of out of the RPG scene while MT
came out, so after subscribing to TML waaay back when and having
my memory jogged that such a thing as MT actually existed, I went
out and managed to get a pretty complete collection of all that stuff
within about a year. For people who are looking for old Trav stuff - 
watch rec.games.frp.marketplace and do the occasional newsgroup
search using AltaVista - it's remarkable successful.

Rambling, Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:10:40 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: praise and timeliness

          Joe wrote:
          >I had expected that, by now folks would be more positive about T4's
          >future.  Are Ken Bearden and I the only ones who think Aliens and CSC
           are
          >praise-worthy?

          Bear in mind some of us would love to contribute to the debate but are
          'time-delayed' a least a month on being able to get hold of the
          products
          to meaningfully join in the conversation.

          Usually by the time we get the books over here, you guys have already
          moved on to the next reviewfest and anything we can say is horribly
          out of
          date or been done to death.

          All I can do is concentrate on stuff published over here - say BITS
          items - and
          hope that their brilliance sets a standard for subsequent T4 books.

          Actually, the one thing I do see is your excellent work in keeping us
          informed Joe.
          May I take this opportunity to thank you for that and say that I think
           you're doing
          a sterling job.

          Frustratedly yours

          tc
          "*I* will be impressed with IG when they release something in Europe
          first!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:03:23 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: White dwarf and main sequence stars

A weekago, Dedly worte:

>I'm no expert but I do know that there are some things that need to cleared
>up:
>
>There are no green stars.
>Type      Color
>B            Bluish-White
>A            White
>F            Yellowish-White

Which I agree that's not the black body radiation which gives the color (but
indirectly). I was wrong.


>V- Main Sequence Stars are not dwarves. D is the notation for Dwarf.

I disagree with this point. The Sun is a Dwarf stars which is on the main
sequence the MK rating is G2V. D rating is for white dwarfs which are
degenerate stars the only MK rating are DB, DA, DF, DG. DK and DM are too
dim to be observed outside the system. There another value is DC white dwarf
which has a continuous specter and has no equivalency in the main sequence.

White dwarfs are the end of evolution of dwarf ('small' if you don't like
'dwarf') stars (Sun's fate). Those stars have very different parameters form
ordinary main sequence (dwarf) or giant stars

They are rocky inside, meanwhile the temperature is very high (not so high
as in a living star) but it can reach 1,000,000 K. The surface temperature
is also very different from usual stars: DB is at 100,000K and DG are around
4,000 K. DK and DM have a lower surface temperature but are consider to be
'black dwarfs' because they cannot be observed (this is NOT neutron stars).
The temperature of White Dwarfs lower slowly and fall in an non observable
value. I seems to be relatively fast compared to the total life.

White dwarfs are the last state of stars which have a masse less than 1,4
time the sun mass. Over this value, the electrons are crushed into the
kernel and the star becomes an neutron star (instead of a white dwarf) which
is much smaller and much heavier(per volume unit). The radius or a neutron
star is around 10Km (i think, maybe less)

I took time to answer because I ahd to check my data more precisely.

- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 07:03:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: empty owner-traveller@phaser.mgpn.com messages

Has anyone else been getting a whole slew of these?  I've gotten at least
10 in the past 12 hours.

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
      Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:13:15 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: empty owner-traveller@phaser.mgpn.com messages

At 07:03 14/01/1997 -0800, douglas wrote:
>Has anyone else been getting a whole slew of these?  I've gotten at least
>10 in the past 12 hours.

Yep, i had to repost my article.
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:16:15 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: empty owner-traveller@phaser.mgpn.com messages

We had a disk space problem.  It should be corrected now.

Rob


At 07:03 AM 1/14/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Has anyone else been getting a whole slew of these?  I've gotten at least
>10 in the past 12 hours.
>
>--------------------------------------------
>Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
>                                              -Merlin
>
>douglas@teleport.com
>http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\
>
>MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
>      Networking, TCP/IP
>--------------------------------------------
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:11:01 -0600 (CST)
From: ccguy@showme.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: empty owner-traveller@phaser.mgpn.com messages

Yes, been getting lots of em.

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Douglas wrote:

> Has anyone else been getting a whole slew of these?  I've gotten at least
> 10 in the past 12 hours.
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
>                                               -Merlin
> 
> douglas@teleport.com
> http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\
> 
> MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
>       Networking, TCP/IP
> --------------------------------------------
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:31:44 +0000 (GMT)
From: mark james wilkin <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Starship Beowolf

I was just wondering something did anyone ever acutally answer this ships 
distress call and did we find out about it?
mark wilkin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:34:26 -0500
From: Ross Coburn <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Re: CANNIBALS!!!

At 9:17 AM -0500 1/14/97, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

>        Of course, his fears are groundless.  I would never in a million
>years stoop to his level.  His character (a rather well-done former scout,
            				  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>I must say), will recieve the same fair and impartial treatment that I will
>mete out to all characters.  Ross's delusions of persecution are merely the
>product of a very guilty conscience.


Listen; I'm not going to rant this time, I am merely going to point out the
above, underlined quote and remind you all that THIS MAN IS INTO
CANNIBALISM!!!

He somehow seems to think that I didn't catch the sinister undercurrent to
his little post there.

Isaac's going to be sleeping wide awake, thank you very much!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:34:26 -0500
From: Ross Coburn <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Re: CANNIBALS!!!

At 9:17 AM -0500 1/14/97, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

>        Of course, his fears are groundless.  I would never in a million
>years stoop to his level.  His character (a rather well-done former scout,
            				  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>I must say), will recieve the same fair and impartial treatment that I will
>mete out to all characters.  Ross's delusions of persecution are merely the
>product of a very guilty conscience.


Listen; I'm not going to rant this time, I am merely going to point out the
above, underlined quote and remind you all that THIS MAN IS INTO
CANNIBALISM!!!

He somehow seems to think that I didn't catch the sinister undercurrent to
his little post there.

Isaac's going to be sleeping wide awake, thank you very much!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:35:40 -0500
From: Ross Coburn <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Cargo Prices

I just noticed that T4 has changed the shipping costs for cargo from
Cr1,000/ton to Cr4,000/ton.

Well THAT certainly changes things!


Comments?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:35:40 -0500
From: Ross Coburn <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Cargo Prices

I just noticed that T4 has changed the shipping costs for cargo from
Cr1,000/ton to Cr4,000/ton.

Well THAT certainly changes things!


Comments?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:08:36 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Propulsion Systems

Traveller Propulsion Systems:

I did a little experiment last night.  Here are standard 100 ktonne thrust
packages of each of the three main propulsion systems -- fusion rockets,
HEPlaR, and thrusters.  They're self-contained; the HEPlaR and thrusters
both include enough fusion reactor to power them.  

I think the results are interesting.  You can design with these packages;
they're linearly scalable, just like their components.  This means that
if you want a 100 tonne thrust system, given my results, you can take the
package below and divide eveything by 1000.

THE RESULTS:

Drive             mass volume   area     price  fuel-use  crew--------
                (tons)  (m^3)  (m^2)     (MCr)   (m^3/h)  (En)    (Mx)
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Fusion (TL9)     11111  11111    500    3888.9    35.00   --     22.3
HEPlaR (TL10-12) 10500   3000   5500     505.0  1250     166.7   21
HEPlaR (TL13-14)  5500   2167   5500     338.3  1250     166.7   11
HEPlaR (TL15)     2167   1333   5500     171.7  1250     166.7    4.3
Thrust (TL11-12) 10000   3750   3250     875.0     0.043  83.4   20
Thrust (TL13-14)  7500   3333   3250     791.7     0.028  83.4   15
Thrust (TL15)     5833   2917   3250     708.3     0.028  83.4    2.7

Fusion produces 2000 MW when running.
HEPlaR produces 5000 MW when not running.
Thrust produces 2500 MW when not running; fuel use is constant.
All drives above produce 100000 tonnes of thrust.

Minimum Drive Size

  TL       Fusion        HEPlaR     Thrusters        
       (t thrust)    (t thrust)    (t thrust)
  -------------------------------------------
   9          100           --            --            
  10          100         20000           --           
  11          100         10000        [20000]         
  12          100           500          1000        
  13+         100           100           200       

Assumes the fusion plant with the lowest power generation on the table
in SSDS is the smallest available; not necessarily true.  My next big
question is what missiles would use for propulsion.  Chemical rockets, 
or fusion rockets (or one of the others at higher tech-levels)?

Another question is if contragrav and a lower-tech propulsion system
like nuclear-thermal rockets (NERVA) or chemical rockets might be more
economical than fusion rockets for low-tech commercial ships.  We don't
know yet, of course, since there aren't any published rules in T4 for
low-tech rockets.

  Steve Bonnneville
  <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:10:52 -0500
From: Andy Brick <100272.273@compuserve.com>
Subject: Age, Design Sequences and CDROMs

Greetings to all,

I'm 27 this week ( happy birthday to me , happy birthday to me .. ) and
have been gaming since '81 ish. As for my group the youngest is 24 and the
oldest was 30 yesterday - which reminds me, I haven't sent him a card.
Whoops.

Re the ongoing discussion of design sequences - I _liked_ FF&S. I know that
we had to play musical chapters to build anything and sometimes it got a
little too complicated, but I thought that it was exactly what makes
Traveller stand apart from other roleplaying games - the level of detail.
It was a shame that the product had so much Errata, but that doesn't bother
me greatly - it was corrected on the Internet and in Challenge anyhow.

The guy who said/implied that most Traveller players do not want to be
gearheads obviously has not noticed the general trend in the game towards
such levels of  detail. It started with Striker and High Guard way back in
the early days, and continued right through MT and TNE to T4. Obviously,
supplements like COACC, High Guard, the Imperial Encyclopaedia, FF&S and so
on _sold_. Doesn't that signify that people liked the stuff in them ? That
some people liked the design sequences ?

Yes, for sure there is going to be a level of "bullshittium" in a product
that extrapolates the future, but Traveller has at least tried to predict
things based on real world science. Ever played / watched Star Trek (
heisenberg compensators, solition waves and let's not forget the radio
controlled Spock ... ) ?

If you want a hard SF game where there is a minimal level of bullshittium,
then play 2300AD. Strip off Stutterwarp, some heavy duty advances in
material technology, and the existence of extra terrestrial life and there
is nothing in 2300AD which is at odds with the predicted development of
modern day science and technology. It also has the best alien races that I
have ever seen in any RPG including Traveller. It's a shame that 2300AD has
not got the following that it rightly deserves, but that is a little off
topic.

IMHO, the design sequences in T4 are actually a retrograde step. Having
made the great leap of unifying all the design sequences into one whole in
FF&S ( at last, only one book ! ) we see them fragmented into many little
and conflicting parts again. Worse still, they are restricted / incomplete.
No vessels over 5000 disp tons, no small scale meson weaponry. Just
components that slot together.

In fact, I think that Starships is _dire_ - the deckplans are next to
useless and there is nothing much beyond TL12 ( great for Milieu 0 but a
little pointless for existing CT / MT era campaigns ) or actually new ( I
must have three or four versions of the Type S Scout or equivalent now ).
But for me the worst thing was that it admits that the design sequences are
based on FF&S ! So why not just reissue FF&S with the errata fixed and some
example vehicles and starships ?

What I think would have been better was a product with at least the
production quality of the MT or TNE products ( especially the Digest Group
stuff for MT, whom IG have yet to surpass IMHO ) which provided detailed
deckplans ( you know, the sort that show you where the freshers are and
have some sort of grid for use with Snapshot / miniatures ! ) and also the
design worksheets for each vessel. That makes them easily customised (
saving the referee time ), and instantly useful in a game ( how many
referees photocopy and enlarge deckplans of standard vessels for boarding
actions and other action aboard, I wonder ? ). Perhaps even some of the
stuff from the DGP Starship Operators Manual to round the book off with
some atmosphere.

BTW, I liked the Central Supply Catalog much more than Starships. It
suffers from slighly poor production quality but on the whole it was
alright.

Traveller CDROM - it would have to be good. On the lines of Traveller meets
Encarta, with a hypertext database of rules, articles, tables and charts
and lots of quality software. Star system and subsector generators, vehicle
/ starship design tools, deckplan clip art, scanned in forms and map grids,
trade utilities, NPC generators and so on. Please no dice rolling tools,
however. Let's not forget that the average CDROM is 650Mb - that should be
enough to fit in loads of stuff ( check out the Microsoft Developer Network
CDROM for an entire of just how much you can cram onto a CD - the answer is
_lots_ ).

Anyhow, that's it for now. Rant mode off. Check out my webpage for a load
of 2300AD stuff, if you're interested.

Andy Brick
100272.273@compuserve.com ( exeus@compuserve.com )
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/exeus
"I'm here to kick ass and chew gum - and I'm fresh outta gum" - 'They Live'

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:36:33 -0500 (EST)
From: "R. Michael Stephens" <mikes@mathcs.emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #844

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Traveller-digest wrote:

> From: Tom Lane
> >In response to Joe Walsh's insight as to the necessity of new gamers, do
> >we have anyone under 25 years old on the list?  What is the average age
> >of the list.  i.e. Are we dinosaurs?
> 

43 as of last May.  Started RPGing in 1977 doing D&D with massive Fantasy 
Trip insertions, then found Travellar in about 1978/79 played in a 
campaign that lasted until 1982. Then I 1) got married, 2) graduated, 3) 
got a real job 4) had a son .....  Now mostly I collect and theorize --

BUT soon (as promised before :^) I will be playing/GMing with my 14 year 
old !!!!!!.


Mike 



|===========================================================================|
|           Mike Stephens, UNIX Systems Programmer/Admin  BIMCORE           |
|   Biomolecular Comupting Resource, Emory University, Atlanta, Ga, USA     |
|  email: rms@bimcore.emory.edu or mikes@mathcs.emory.edu or rms@emory.edu  |
|                                                                           |
| Ideas expressed herein are the result of random combinations of characters|
|produced without the cooperation, consent, or knowledge of Emory University|
|                                                                           |
|"I move my feet, I go through the motions - HE gives purpose to chance.    |
| I am the dancer.  HE is LORD of the Dance."         Steven Curtis Chapman |
|===========================================================================|

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:02:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Calling Out the Ten

Hi.

> From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>


>> -Rob, who finally stands up to be counted.

> 'Bout time.  Where ya been, boy?

> Kenneth.

Writing my thesis. It's done now. You'll see more of me from now on,
for a while anyway.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:04:43 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Das new guy

At 01:54 AM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Foss artwork
>It's ok But stripes on a Vac suit I don't know

Actually, if I was working in the Big Dark, I'd want my suit to be
*brightly* colored in a pattern that was unique.  That would facilitate
rescue, and people could tell me at a glance in my lime green with pink
tiger stiped suit.

Of course a Vargr would find that lovely.

>For 5 points What do you do With a Vargar Jump Drive???

Barium!

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:04:45 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: The evil that big brothers do (was: FF&S too complex

At 09:26 PM 1/13/97 -0800, Craig Berry wrote:

At first, my only willing player was my little
>brother, whom you all know well.  So take heart...sometimes an older
>brother *can* have some influence on his siblings.

Influence??

You turned me into a bloody ZOMBIE!!!  Every week my allowance went straight
to The GameTable.  Every waking moment was spent trying to figure out the
next move the Zhodani would make in the 5FW (btw: JTAS #9 still is the best
birthday gift I've ever recieved).

After he does all this, what's his reaction when I announce I'm joining the
Army for 4 years?  "My God, you're playing Traveller!".  Craig, if I was
playing Traveller, I would have joined the Marines......



+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:08:57 -0800
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Subject: Age...

Thought I'd throw my 2 cents.

I am 32.  Picked up the 1st Edition LBB's back in 1978, at age 14, 
with money made from lawn maintenance.  Ironic, actually.  I'd been a 
wargamer for over a year.  I bought Traveller thinking it was some 
sort of wargame...  I'd played D&D before then, but really hadn't 
realized that somebody would put out an SF RPG.  I mainly wrote a lot 
of early adventures based on a lot of the Heinlein, Asimov, & 
Bradbury books I was reading early on.  

A bit of trivia for folks who didn't join this early on.  For over a 
year after the release of the LBB's there WASN'T an official setting. 
My first addition to the 3 LBB's was Books 4 & 5, and Adventure 3, 
Twilight's Peak.  I consider the latter to STILL be the best 
adventure written for any version of the game though there have been 
many great efforts since.  1 of my first gaming buddies, Bob Munsil 
still plays Traveller with me semi-regularly on Sunday evenings, 
through the miracle of IRC...  He participated in that very first 
adventure years ago.

Rules:  Well, actually, I use the bug squashed version of MT, at this 
time.  May change on this once Milieu 0 comes out.  I had no real 
problems with the TNE setting, but just didn't like having to learn a 
totally new rules system, nor become the engineer that using FF&S 
seems to require.

Current Game:

Well, actually, I run 2.  I'm running an IRC campaign set in Reavers 
Deep (a very unofficial Reavers Deep, I might add), set in 1116 
around the time of Strephon's assassination (A word to my players:  
No hints as to whether the rebellion is happening or not).  I have several ship 
designs, and other things from it I would be willing to post if 
people are interested enough.  These include a number of MT ship 
designs in the TL 10-12 range (may take the time to convert to T4, 
someday), a Robot NPC named GIGO (yup, Garbage In, Garbage Out), and 
a few other goodies.

The other campaign is a ftf that's currently on hold.  Running the CT 
adventure, Marc Miller's magnum opus, the Traveller Adventure.

Stu
Stuart L. Dollar               sdollar@goodnet.com
- ---------------------------------------------------
Official USENet Product Infoperson  Imperium Games
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." 
- -Thomas Jefferson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:07:20 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Subject: Traveller CDrom

If they're gonna reprint old material, I'd like to see all deckplans 
put on there along with their descriptions. Like the ones in the 
little adventure books.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:15:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

Hi.

> From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>

> Kenneth.
> (And Rob, I guess you knew that the QSDS was going to be based on 
> High Guard until this list lobbied for a system based on FF&S, don't 
> you?)

Yes, I knew it. I cast my vote and lost. But I can grin and bear it; I
still have my copy of High Guard that I secretly carry around in a brown
paper bag. Now that I'm done writing, I can finally put some work into
that High-Guard-to-T4 conversion system that I promised so many months
ago.

- -Rob, the High Guard guy.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:46:56 +0100 (MET)
From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Christopher R Stainton wrote:
> Tom Lane wrote:
> >In response to Joe Walsh's insight as to the necessity of new gamers, do
> >we have anyone under 25 years old on the list?  What is the average age
> >of the list.  i.e. Are we dinosaurs?
>         I'm 27.

I'm 25 (26 in July).

Thomas Biskup
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:45:45 -0600
From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Subject: Re: Age

Okay already...

   Age thirtysomething with a binary search key of 011.  :-)

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@NASCRAG.ORG

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #845
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 14 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 846



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Is there anyone...
Re: Lots of complaints
Re: Melee weapons
Re: The evil that big brothers do (was: FF&S too complex
Re: Lots of complaints
Re: Starship Beowolf
Apparant Age
Re: empty owner-traveller@phaser.mgpn.com messages
Age & Traveller
my first Traveller applet
Age Of Traveller Players
Re: What happened to the NAH?
Re: Rob Dean
Re: Problems finding IG products at FLGS's
Re: Imperial Funding-Other Than Taxes
Re: Complexity and Playability
Traveller Equipment Quality (was Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS)
Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question
Re: Melee Weapons
Re: Das new guy
Re: Melee weapons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:48:41 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Is there anyone...

>Douglas@teleport.com wrote:
>Sorry, I'm working in VB with MS Access databases (same theory tho', learn
>to program with things you enjoy doing!)

>Does anyone have any traveller material done in VB that they wouldn't mind
>sharing the project files to?

I'm doing the same, currently converting the Bits product 101 cargos into a
VB/Access program, sorry can't give you the source on this one as it's
copywrited by BITS and i have to send it to the BITS/CORE group for their
perusal/approval, (If i get it working i'll then work on the 101 Plots
(another BITS supplement) and other things as well) for any that are
interested the BITS/CORE web page is http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/
look under products for the current available products.

However any other ideas I'll quite happily bounce off you or anyone else,
like why not write a FS&S component building module that will plug 'n' play
with the QSDS system (Best of both worlds) and if its written as a program
then the Techies can get out their pens and slide rules to create something
and the rest of us use the program.

Since we seem to be taking a census, here are my vital statistics

Age: 33, 34 on Bastille day
Roleplaying: 20 years
Traveller 7 years approx
First Games: AD and D 1st Edition/Warhammer fantasy RPG/Tunnels and
trolls/Chivalry and Sorcery
Current Games: AD and D 1st and 2nd edition, T4, Tales of the Floating
Vagabond and a few others,
Roll playing clubs/Societies: British Isles Traveller Support Group (BITS)
and the Guild of Melee and Magic roleplaying club.
Alternative Roleplaying: I'm a member of the English Civil War reenactment
Society (ECWS)
status: Married no kids
Job: Analyst/Programmer for an Oilfield services company
Residence: London, England

and thank the deities my wife has the same hobbies i do, she's also 9 years
my junior ha ha!

Boy do i love spell checkers, mine just tried to change Techies into
Tetchiest.
Then again... who knows.


Colin Hollands - British Isles Traveller Support (Bits) member.
"Insanity is not a medical condition, its a way of life"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:52:31 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints

At 09:03 PM 1/13/97 +0000, you wrote:

>Kenneth has 20 thumbs? They yours? Or did you "collect" them from other people?

Maybe he's a Vilani and got the munchies?

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:52:35 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

At 12:24 AM 1/13/97 +0000, Kenneth wrote:

>I thought they used them as a fear weapon.  It's scary as hell having 
>a screaming maniac come charging at you with this long knife on the 
>end of his rifle.
>
>It would scare the hell out of me anyway.

The only way human wave attacks like that work is if you can overwhelm your
target.  The Soviets made very sucessful use of bayonet charges after the
winter of 1943.. they had the manpower to absorb the massive casulties, and
the Germans soon learned that firepower wouldn't stop them, so units tended
to rout at the first sign of a wave.

In Korea, the PRC/NK forces failed to establish that sort of terror against
the Marines and Army, who had access to strong support to blow holes in the
onrushing attack.  The PRA WAr Museum admits to 50,000 KIA in the first 6
months of Chinese intervention.

>And, even if your figures on the Civil War are correct, why are 
>knives still issued to US Marines?  As a tool?

The bayonet was first designed to convert a musket into a polearm.  The last
time the US had an effective bayonet was the 2' long pig-sticker we put on
the M1903 Springfield rifle.  This gave the infantryman a reach of almost
six feet to stab someone.  With a M9 on a M-16A1, I'd have to get within
three feet to get a good forceful thrust.

Bayonets are a tool, but a poor one.  Most soldiers and Marines buy personal
knives, usually two.  One "utility" style camping knife, and one good dagger
(I bought a Fairburn MkII.. great 8" double edged dagger.)


+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|                      ARMADILLO:                     |
|        To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:58:25 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter J. Miller" <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: The evil that big brothers do (was: FF&S too complex

>You turned me into a bloody ZOMBIE!!!  Every week my allowance went straight
>to The GameTable.  Every waking moment was spent trying to figure out the
>next move the Zhodani would make in the 5FW (btw: JTAS #9 still is the best
>birthday gift I've ever recieved).

Doug, you're not alone.  About 9 years ago, my brother introduced me to a
weird game in a red box called 'Dungeons & Dragons'. Since then, I've
probably spen a whole college education on RPGs, from D&D to AD&D, to CoC
and Over the Edge, before discovering a new source of for my spending (that
is, Traveller).

__________________________________________________________Peter J. Miller
                "Mars waits for us..." - Ben Bova, 'Mars'
         Traveller, RPGs, and the Home of the Imperium Games FAQ
                  http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
www.irevolution.com - Graphics, Web Design, and the LOWEST prices around!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:30:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 09:03 PM 1/13/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
> >Kenneth has 20 thumbs? They yours? Or did you "collect" them from other people?
>
> Maybe he's a Vilani and got the munchies?
>

What's the ettiquette of cannibalism?  Would this be considered 'finger
food'?  8D

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
      Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:34:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Beowolf

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, mark james wilkin wrote:

> I was just wondering something did anyone ever acutally answer this ships
> distress call and did we find out about it?
> mark wilkin
>

No, I believe that was the last thing ever heard from that particular ship
and crew. ;)

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
      Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:35:35 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Apparant Age

>Andy Lilly Wrote

>P.S. I'm not worried about aging rolls - I've been on anagathics for years
>(hence apparent physical age of 7).

Andy,

If you look 7, I want your mirror.


Colin Hollands - British Isles Traveller Support (Bits) member.
"Insanity is not a medical condition, its a way of life"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:39:49 +0100
From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se>
Subject: Re: empty owner-traveller@phaser.mgpn.com messages

At 07:03 1997-01-14 -0800, you wrote:
>Has anyone else been getting a whole slew of these?  I've gotten at least
>10 in the past 12 hours.
>
>--------------------------------------------
>Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
>                                              -Merlin
>
>douglas@teleport.com
>http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\
>
>MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
>      Networking, TCP/IP
>--------------------------------------------
>
>


Damn right i have. i count 15 the last 24 h.

Goran

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:49:27 -0600
From: "Joul, Christopher" <JOUC1@Aerial1.com>
Subject: Age & Traveller

Hi,

Well seen as everyone else is doing it I might as well join the
bandwagon:-

I'm 27 years old, and started playing traveller, with a starter eddition
back in 1982, drifted away with the introduction of MT onto other
systems, but I have recently bought T4 and am very keen to run or play
Traveller again.  However there is just one problem I have just moved
from the UK to Chicago and don't know of any gamers in the area, let
alone ones wanting to play Traveller.

If there are any groups in the Chicago area I would appreciate if they
contacted me.

Thanks.

Chris Joul.
(jouc1@aerial1.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:58:23 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: my first Traveller applet

Okay, so I'm behind the times - but I've finally gotten something
working. The GUI needs a lot more work, but the core functionality is
there!

If you're interested, take a look at:
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/java/test.html
- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:15:19 -0600
From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Age Of Traveller Players

Well 1 41, and started playing wargames around 1965-6, started playing DnD
in 1975, and Traveller in 1977. Some the most fun was when I stationed on a
destroyer in USN, we played in sonar one during rough seas, we did not have
to roll the dice, just stop them. Have playing with my Traveller group know
for 8 years, ages range from 15 to 37. I introduced the two sons to RPG's
three years ago, now they are playing Traveller with my group, my sons are
15 and 16. We play a blend/hybrid of CT/MT/T4. I am field service engineer
for a medical equipment company that manufactures ventilators.

Sam Thomas
sinbad sam
sinbad@dfw.net
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:04:12 -0600
From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: What happened to the NAH?

>> When is it due to be released?
>
If it follows the previous sequence Don will give the NAH assistants(TML and
GDW Beta Lists) a one week deadline to get something to him, and then he
will sit on it for atleast two months, and produced designs that do not
follow the NAH rules.<G>

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:33:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Keith Thoms <kthoms@nooster.nosc.mil>
Subject: Re: Rob Dean

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Rob Dean robdean@access.digex.net wrote:

> As for the deterioration of the TML--go back and look at the archives from
> the time when TNE was announced. (Sometime in '92).  Those were flamewars...

There is a history as to why the rules of TML posting now say no personal
attacks!

> 
> I probably also come close to qualifying as a TML dinosaur, having joined
> up in 1990.  Any other long service veterans still lurking out there?  Hans
> is still here regularly, and I saw George Herbert post last week...

Hans has been ranting about the Vargr inability to overrun Corridor for
six or seven years now.  ;-)

As for other long service vets, Mark Cook did some posting in September,
but jeez it's hard to keep up with this traffic nowadays.  Mark & Mike
Metlay's Elissa PBEM is sadly mothballed for good.  Looks like we'll never
escape from the 'Wire', and the disappeared ringworld is forever lost :(

- -----------
Keith Thoms                                 Is it a rule, that there is an 
wind@nooster.nosc.mil                             exception to every rule?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:21:53 -0800
From: "Douglas" <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Problems finding IG products at FLGS's

Military Corner (AKA Bridgetown Hobbies), here in Portland, OR, has had
every mainstream Traveller product for as far back as I can remember.  One
of the sales people there is a long time Traveller player (tho' I haven't
been able to induce him to get on the TML), and keeps up on the product. 
(He's the one who told me about T4).

- ----------
From: Joseph E. Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Problems finding IG products at FLGS's
Date: Sunday, January 12, 1997 9:35 AM

Hi,

I'm a big supporter of purchasing gaming products locally.  I only buy 
stuff online if I have to (ie, out-of-print stuff and whatnot).  But if 
you're in a situation where you're unable to buy it local, you might want 
to at least consider buying online.  Once IG gets their web site set up 
for online ordering, give 'em a try again.

I've also had great success ordering from Dragon's Trove 
(http://www.dragontrove.com) and Quincey Koziol's Titan Games 
(http://www.titan-games.com).  You might want to give the owners of 
either of those sites an email and ask how to order, and how quickly they 
can get the stuff to you.


- -Joe
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:26:54 -0800
From: "Douglas" <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Funding-Other Than Taxes

[snip]

> The assumption of Traveller is that the Imperium controls the space
> between the worlds, if not the worlds themselves.  What this means,
> besides the typical control of trade, is that they own 99.9% of its
> resources-and sells them.  NOW THAT IS POWER.
> 
> Deadeye

The only modification I would make to this is that I do not believe that
the Imperium sells anything.  You only get paid ONCE if you do that...and
if the company you sell too goes banko, you no longer have control of the
resource you sold them.

LEASING however...

E-MAIL: douglas@teleport.com
HTTP://www.teleport.com/~douglas

Never anger a dragon, for they find you are crunchy and go well with brie!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 21:29:19 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Complexity and Playability

> Instead of just adding up easy weights, like a pistol that weighs 
> 4kg, my players would have to add numbers like 3.92537 kg.  I think 
> you see where I am going with this.  While the long number is 
> unnecessary, it is more realistic.

I want to comment on this.  

It makes sense to carry a number out to 5 decimal places if there's a
*reason* to carry it out to the 10,000th place.  It doesn't make sense to
do it for a pistol.  Round the darn thing off!

In the design of a starship there are intermediate calculations that can be
carried out that far, *need* to be, because of the scale of the numbers.
The *final* numbers should be rounded.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:31:28 -0800
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Traveller Equipment Quality (was Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS)

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> And, even on the same type of drive, there should be pros and cons by
> different manufacturers.  You know--General Shipyards builds the
> K-Mart discount model that is easy to work on but only produces
> average to below average results.  Naasirka builds the Porche model
> of drive that will skew the hours in jump space to the lower end of
> the scales but is very pricey and parts are hell to find, etc.

It reminds me of Armour and Weapon quality optional rules for AD&D. Such
a thing could easily be adaptible to Traveller, for everything from .44
magnums to jump drives.

I think 5 levels of quality is enough detail. If one were to roll a d6
to determine the quality of an item, this could be the table:

1. Poor quality
2. Substandard quality
3. Typical quality
4. Typical quality
5. Good quality
6. Exceptional quality

Here's a sample table of possible game effects:

Quality        Cost Mod.    Maintenance   
- -------        ----------   -----------
Poor           - d6 x 10%       x 2         
Substandard    - d6 x 5%       x 3/2
Typical        0                x 1
Good           + d6 x 10%      x 3/4
Exceptional    + d6 x 20%      x 2/3

I can think of other effects like a reduction in task difficulty or a DM
for using exceptional equipment. (The reverse is also true!) I would
think that Substandard-Good stuff basically functions the same, but
might have different physical qualities, only Poor or Exceptional items
would have task modifiers.

Other things that might be affected by quality include fuel consumption,
power use, item weight, chance of breakage on critical failure...

Note: Modifiers should really depend on the product. Some are highly
variable (smaller equipment), others not (starship equipment, say). The
numbers I chose in the above table are purely arbitrary to show what I'm
getting at.

Cost modifiers of course, just indicate value. There could be any number
of shysters selling upscale products of poor quality at high prices, or
the possibility exists of high quality products at rock-bottom prices.
(At least that's what every Sylea-mart would have you believe)

A quality system such as the above can be abused, no one cares what the
quality of every nut and bolt they own is -- nor is the paperwork worth
the effort. But, I agree with Kenneth. A system such as this can add
some neat roleplaying opportunities.

"Welcome to Crazi Eneri's Used Air Rafts! What are you looking for
today? Perhaps you'd be interested in this little number... it's a Ling
Standard Products model 6430 Open topped air raft. Barely used by some
old Newt who drove it to the beach on weekends... I see by your look
that you'd like something that will turn more heads... Howzabout this
beaut! It's an Iridium Industries Stratosfera CX... a little more
pricey, but worth every credit! . . ."

I think if we put our collective minds together, this list could hash
out an interesting optional quality system for Traveller.

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========
Technology is an extension of our hands and our feet, not our spirit.
                                    -- Filmmaker Costa-Gavras, 9/6/95

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:48:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question

In mail, trlane@texas.net writes:

> In response to Joe Walsh's insight as to the necessity of new gamers, do
> we have anyone under 25 years old on the list?  What is the average age
> of the list.  i.e. Are we dinosaurs?

I don't know about the average age of the list. But I'll supply a data
point. I'll be 42 next month.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:06:04 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Melee Weapons

Brad Urwiller wrote:
> 
> Okay let me reiterate.
> 
> I think that melee weapons are NOT the idea of a madman in a T4
> campaign. A then it dawn's on me it depends on the GM. 

Here's one GM's take on melee weapons and TL:

Melee weapons are an important part of the flavor of my game. There is a
noble _code duello_ on Sylea (LL:8); Syleans of Soc 11+ may carry a
rapier on a baldric. Knights wear a white baldric; non-knights may wear
any color other than white. Adventuresome Sylean nobles can expect to
get into rapier duels on a somewhat regular basis. Higher-ranking
nobility may openly carry a magnum revolver (and ONLY a mag revolver) as
well as a rapier; this exception was recently written into Imperial Law
by Cleon. Folks of SOC 10 _may_ be able to get a permit to carry a gun;
this depends upon personal pull -- PCs have to _roleplay_ their attempt
to get a permit . . . and the price of the permit may be a favor owed.
If your SOC is 9 or less, get a boot knife and hide it well -- Solly,
Cholly.

On MY Sylea, there is a general revulsion to gun ownership. Non-nobles
with weapons are viewed by the man-on-the-lift as _dangerous people_,
lock up your daughters, the barbarians are in town! For the nobility,
the privledge of being armed bears a responsibility: using the gun or
blade irresponsibly results in _degradation_ from the nobility. Having a
sword is a privledge, not a license to kill.

On neighboring Ordun (LL:2), the _code duello_ requires magnum revolvers
. . . and duellists may not wear armor! David Weber's _Code of Dishonor_
contains the model for my Ordun duelling protocol -- and the _code_ is
available to _non-nobles_! Folks on Ordun epitomize the saying, "An
armed society is a polite society."


> Myself and the
> GM's I know are a little stringent with the reality of a situation.  For
> instance, Most worlds we travel on would restrict the weapons that can
> be carried to shotguns and pistols or at the least pathetic rifles.  In
> addition we have played (I beleive this is mentioned in the rules) that
> at contact range no ranged weapon may be used for firing.  More often
> than not Contact range gets closed to.  Especially in a ship or a small
> room.  The benefits of Contact range are many.  There at least in melee
> you can dodge blows and few will fire into your fight.

You also have a _good chance_ of surviving a melee; much better odds
than of surviving a gunfight.
> 
> Plus when on a starship who wants to chance being blown into space.  So
> for the above reasons I beleive melee weapons should be given more
> status.  I realize ranged weapons are definatly the preferred weapon but
> hey that broadsword can come in handy!

Just ask a Marine, Brad!

- -- 
- --Rich Ostorero		http://home.inreach.com/lordbasl/index.html
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:40:23 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Das new guy

TBSVT@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Fine Rich I'll stop lurking;)

About bluidy time . . . . :)
> 
> Ok Hear it goes
> I got hooked on traveller 2 years ago and I liked it (so much so I got off of
> my lazy a** and did yuk work to get the money to by TNE & FF&S Some of the
> best books on my shelf) and why all the put downs on Virus more then one Sat
> was spent on Promise (I am sure half of you know were this is)

This was my previous campaign, set in the RC and run under T:TNE. 

> 
> I am a Gearhead/Naval Architect

So much so that I can _hear_ the gears turning when Vic shows up.

> 
> and  have built every thing from a Tech 1 rock To Tl 15 Battle dress for the
> IBWF Ithklur Battle Dress Wrestling Federation From 30Ton ships boats to
> 50000 ton Darrien Warships

 . . . and the Schalli Wheelchair of Death(tm).

> I like FF&S because it lets me know (kind of) why the laser works
> QSDS and SSDS are ok but feel to (to barrow a term) LEGO like "look what I
> made mom" and some times dont make much sense( Only a 2000 ton ship can have
> Densitometer?)

Is this guy a candidate for GDW-Beta or not?? :)
> 
> I think IG is Doing a great Job They just start and You want Perfection
> They have been getting better and better Its getting harder to come up with
> complaints about:)
> 
> Foss artwork
> It's ok But stripes on a Vac suit I don't know
> 
> And thats my $1.50
> 
> For 5 points What do you do With a Vargar Jump Drive???

Hmmm...sounds like a line of a filk of "What do you do with a Drunken
sailor?"

Welcome to the list, Victor.

- --Rich Ostorero		http://home.inreach.com/lordbasl/index.html
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:28:45 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
> The only way human wave attacks like that work is if you can overwhelm your
> target.  The Soviets made very sucessful use of bayonet charges after the
> winter of 1943.. they had the manpower to absorb the massive casulties, and
> the Germans soon learned that firepower wouldn't stop them, so units tended
> to rout at the first sign of a wave.

That's how a high-tech missile attack vs. point defenses works, too . .
. except it only takes _one_ missile getting through the firepower
gauntlet to do real damage. IIRC, the Germans suffered so many
casualties that they _had_ to thin out their defensive lines a lot, too,
and in doing so, the firepower density facing the Sovs dropped enough to
make wave assaults work.

> 
> In Korea, the PRC/NK forces failed to establish that sort of terror against
> the Marines and Army, who had access to strong support to blow holes in the
> onrushing attack.  The PRA WAr Museum admits to 50,000 KIA in the first 6
> months of Chinese intervention.

Can you say "air and artillery support?" I knew you could ;)

> 
> >And, even if your figures on the Civil War are correct, why are
> >knives still issued to US Marines?  As a tool?
> 
> The bayonet was first designed to convert a musket into a polearm.  The last
> time the US had an effective bayonet was the 2' long pig-sticker we put on
> the M1903 Springfield rifle.  This gave the infantryman a reach of almost
> six feet to stab someone.  With a M9 on a M-16A1, I'd have to get within
> three feet to get a good forceful thrust.

I recall that Reniassance-era musketeers used barrel-plug bayonets to
turn their long guns into pikes. Keeps the cavalry off you; horses don't
like Getting Poked :)


- -- 
- --Rich Ostorero		http://home.inreach.com/lordbasl/index.html
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #846
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 14 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 847



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Melee Weapons
Re: Starship Beowulf
IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts
Game in MS/LA
Re: Age
Re: Age of TML members
Please Usubscribe me!
Re: CANNIBALS!!!
Optional quality system
re: melee weapons
RPVDS = Simple Vehicle Design System
Age and other stuff
Re: Age
RE: IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:45:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Melee Weapons

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Rich Ostorero wrote:

[snip]


> On neighboring Ordun (LL:2), the _code duello_ requires magnum revolvers
> . . . and duellists may not wear armor! David Weber's _Code of Dishonor_
> contains the model for my Ordun duelling protocol -- and the _code_ is
> available to _non-nobles_! Folks on Ordun epitomize the saying, "An
> armed society is a polite society."

This is not meant to snipe at an otherwise very interesting and
informative article, but the title of the book is "Field of Dishonor".
The Honor Harrington series is an excellent resource for anyone interested
in running an active duty PC -type campaign, BTW.

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
      Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:59:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Beowulf

> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:34:20 -0800 (PST)
> From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
> 
> On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, mark james wilkin wrote:
> 
> > I was just wondering something did anyone ever acutally answer this ships
> > distress call and did we find out about it?
> > mark wilkin
> 
> No, I believe that was the last thing ever heard from that particular ship
> and crew. ;)

Nothing more was heard from the ship and crew who answered the distress
call, more likely.  I've always imagined that the famous mayday signal
from the LBB box cover was issued by a corsair, hoping to lure hapless
good samaritans into an ambush. 

But then, I'm just a *bit* cynical... :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 17:00:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts

  First, addressing some previous rants...

  Yes, FF&S is complicated.  Yes, it has bugs (bloody big ones,
  IMO).  Yes, it's designed for gearheads.  So what's your
  point?  _Mine_ is that when GDW went under, and FFE/IG started
  working on T4, they solicited input from the list.  The sense
  of the list at the time was that FF&S should represent the
  _baseline_ of equipment design - simpler systems were needed,
  but they should be devised through cutting extra info out of a
  system with FF&S complexity rather than trying to patch
  complexity into a simple system later.  This is good; if done
  properly and without error, it means that any piece of
  equipment done with the simplified designs can be created by
  making certain acceptable decisions in the more complex
  sequence.  If you don't like the complexity of FF&S, stick to
  QSDS or SSDS!  That's what they're for!

  No, the Foss artwork, for the most part, is not
  Travelleresque.  What comes to mind for some of it is "Star
  Wars", for some, "Space Opera", for some "Robotech", and for
  some, "<Deleted by Censor>".  But fercryinoutloud, we _know_
  that already - no need to rant publicly any more.  Gentle
  reminders, privately, to IG, will suffice.  And if one
  dissociates the Foss artwork from Traveller, even some of the
  <Deleted by Censor> is _nice_ _art_.

  'Nuff o' dat.

  IG:  There are still some problems here.  I have not received
  my subscription issue of JTAS; my FLGS has it.  I thought the
  point of subscribing, beside the convenience of not having to
  visit the FLGS, was to get it _early_.  This still needs work,
  folks - for my FLGS to have it on the shelves before I have it
  in my mailbox means that theirs were shipped from IG before
  mine.  No way.

  CSC and AA: I still have concerns about IG's quality control
  and consistency thereof.  However, both of these volumes go a
  long way toward redemption of the sin of releasing Starships.
  My complaints have been hashed over on this list of late; no
  sense in going over it once more.  However, I _will_ make some
  comments about the printing: Consistency of appearance is
  desirable.  On the other hand, the products must be readable,
  and this must take priority over consistency. Large quantities
  of Helvetica at ten points is not readable over the long term;
  the eye and mind both end up straining somewhat - I should not
  get a headache from reading the things cover-to-cover.  The
  larger point size of Alien Archive alleviated the problem
  somewhat; better would be to switch to Times for the body text
  - Helvetica titles and sidebars is OK.

  The Web Page: _NICE_!  This is much better than the old one -
  contains more useful information, presented better, and
  "feels" more like what I would expect a SFRPG site to feel
  like.  The only complaints I have at the moment are that the
  TNS archives are as yet incomplete, and I think that the
  default grey background for the news articles themselves is
  somewhat tacky - not to mention that there's one year where
  the text all of a sudden went to double-spaced white from
  single spaced black.  I would offer an Idea: Make the archives
  searchable, preferably by subject, not just date.

  I must also take this opportunity to publicly urge IG to
  reopen discussions with Roger Sanger and conclude an agreement
  that will allow the re-release of DGP's old Traveller
  material.  These are resources that Traveller really cannot
  afford to lose, and are representative of the quality that
  will attract people to Traveller.  I fully expect IG to be
  achieving that level of quality by the end of 1997, regularly
  if not consistently - but that's no excuse not to take what
  you can get - and Roger started out as eager to get it back
  out as IG should be.  Unfortunately, IG dropped the ball, and
  it is IG's responsibility to pick it up and run with it.

  I think I'll let Sappy run back to his regular newsgroup...

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Make love not war...Get married and do both

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:08:17 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Game in MS/LA

Well, I know of at least two people that live/work in either the
South-Western Edge of Mississippi or the South-Eastern Edge of Louisianna.
And one of these persons has contacted me.  I am looking for anyone else
that would be interested in Reffing or Playing in a game in Slidell, or that
general area.

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:50:23 -0500
From: "Bill Beane" <concord-tech@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Age

<sleep mode off>

I'm 34 years old and starting playing Traveller in 1978.....

I was into models and was visiting the local hobby shop, when I overheard
some guys talking about playing some fantasy game like Lord of the
Rings.....

After speaking with them for a few *hours*, I left the store with a little
white box containing three little brown books.....Original D&D.....

When I returned to the store the next week, I found this neat little black
book with a red-orange stripe.....Book 4 Mercenary.....I was hooked.....so
I asked the guy who ran the store where the first three books of the series
where and he said he didn't have them in stock.....

The next week I bought JTAS #3.....and finally after waiting an eternity
(maybe 4 weeks), I got the little black box.....Classic Traveller.....

Since then I have collected almost all of the CT, MT and TNE products.....

My initial thoughts on T4 are much the same as those that have be flying
around the list since I joined a few weeks ago.....so I will not echo that
now.....

The last few products: CSC, AA and JTAS #25 are what I would have expected
from a start up game company good solid materials.....not great mind you,
there is still room for improvement and I truly hope this happens.....

One comment on JTAS #25 specifically involves the Silver Moon Incident,
since when does Traveller have cloaking devices and FTL communications? 
Shouldn't the adventure in a dedicated support magazine at least follow the
core rules of the system?  Or did I miss something?


<re-enter sleep mode>

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:10:05 -0800
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Age of TML members

To the keepers of the TML age distribution curve:

I am 27 years of age, and the youngest of my Traveller group.

I was introduced to Traveller when my friend brought back the Fighting
Ships supplement from the UK waaaay back before I remember. I was
hooked, and sent a bunch of my money and a bunch of my friends' money
off to GDW to buy a bunch of LBB's. (It was a $50 order IIRC, I'm not
sure how I scraped together that much money :-) This was before Book 7:
Merchant Prince.

I discovered the internet in oh, about 1989-90 and shortly thereafter
found out there were these mailing list thingys and that Traveller
actually had one. Not having an internet account, I was the ultimate
lurker... I downloaded the digests by ftp and read them...

Although I haven't played all that much in the last few years, I've
bought lots of supplements and kept up with Traveller's transformations.
I've been eternally optimistic about each one, as each change addresses
some aspect of the game that frustrated me. Now, I am glad the pendulum
is swinging back to less complexity and more playability -- it makes me
nostalgic (ahhh simpler times...) I once lent my TNE rulebook to a
friend who had never played Traveller before, but was familiar with
AD&D. He found the rules impossible to learn. I LOVE detail but I
understand the need for streamlining.

It's only been since this past year that I've been an official TML
member. So, I don't know what the official qualifications for
dinosaurdom are, but I consider myself one of the more recent dinosaurs,
perhaps a tricerotops.
- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========
Technology is an extension of our hands and our feet, not our spirit.
                                    -- Filmmaker Costa-Gavras, 9/6/95

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:11:32 +1000
From: PARISC@complete.com.au (Paris Conte)
Subject: Please Usubscribe me!

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- --_[INTERGATE-SMTP800336213]_--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:25:26 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: CANNIBALS!!!

Ross Coburn wrote:

>
>At 9:17 AM -0500 1/14/97, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>
>>        Of course, his fears are groundless.  I would never in a million
>>years stoop to his level.  His character (a rather well-done former scout,
>                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>I must say), will recieve the same fair and impartial treatment that I will
>>mete out to all characters.  Ross's delusions of persecution are merely the
>>product of a very guilty conscience.
>
>
>Listen; I'm not going to rant this time, I am merely going to point out the
>above, underlined quote and remind you all that THIS MAN IS INTO
>CANNIBALISM!!!
>
>He somehow seems to think that I didn't catch the sinister undercurrent to
>his little post there.
>
>Isaac's going to be sleeping wide awake, thank you very much!


        Good!  The paranoia is setting in, and we haven't even started
playing yet.  I guess I did a good job of tormenting him the last time I
reffed, then :).

        And is it my fault if people are really tasty?

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick D. Elliott... rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca              |
|                        elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca           |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| "...an imperfect plan implemented immediately and violently |
| will always succeed better than a perfect plan."            |
|                        -Gen. George S. Patton.              |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:25:31 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Optional quality system

Glenn Hoppe wrote:

[snippage]
>
>I think 5 levels of quality is enough detail. If one were to roll a d6
>to determine the quality of an item, this could be the table:
>
>1. Poor quality
>2. Substandard quality
>3. Typical quality
>4. Typical quality
>5. Good quality
>6. Exceptional quality
>
>Here's a sample table of possible game effects:
>
>Quality        Cost Mod.    Maintenance
>- -------        ----------   -----------
>Poor           - d6 x 10%       x 2
>Substandard    - d6 x 5%       x 3/2
>Typical        0                x 1
>Good           + d6 x 10%      x 3/4
>Exceptional    + d6 x 20%      x 2/3
[snippage]
>
>I think if we put our collective minds together, this list could hash
>out an interesting optional quality system for Traveller.



        I agree.  Permit me to repost something I fired off back during
exams; it deals with performance, mass, and price, taking the values for
each at a given TL as a baseline and allowing deviation either way at a
price:


>
>
>        While I haven't got the CSC yet and so cannot comment on the final
>version, something that had occurred to me was that perhaps the VDS ought
>to take account of quality and design differences at different tech
>levels, and reflect this in its pricing.  Obviously, a Honda Accord and a
>Yugo are both TL-7 or so vehicles... however, one outperforms the other,
>and a Porsche will blow the doors off both of them but costs far more.
>
>        How about allowing an increase of up to 15% in either mass,
>output, or volume in any system at any tech level, at the cost of
>increasing the price at a gradually increasing rate; say 1% more expensive
>for a 1% improvement, 2% for 2%, 5% for 3%, 9% for 4%, 14% for 5%, 20% for
>6%, 27% for 7%, 35% for 8%, 44% for 9%, 54% for 10%, 65% for 11%, 77% for
>12%, 90% for 13%, 104% for 14%, and 119% for 15%.  Thus, a power plant
>that had 15% more output would cost (base price +119%) more than the base
>model, and one that had 15% less mass, 15% more output, and 15% less
>volume would cost (base price +357%) of the base model for that TL.
>Repeat this increase in price on chassis and propulsion, and you'd get a
>significant increase in performance at a massive increase in price...
>
>        Going the other way, for the Yugo end of the scale, you could cut
>price by, say 0.5% for every 1% degradation in performance; thus, for a
>power plant that was 15% bulkier, 15% more massive, and had 15% less
>output than the base model, the cost would drop by 22.5%...  Repeat this
>for chassis and propulsion, and you'd get a vehicle 67.5% less expensive
>than the base model. Let's assign the following values using the S.W.A.G
>Method*:
>
>
>Vehicle: Volume:   Mass:     Output:   Accel.:  Top speed:   Cost:
>
>Honda    100%      2.50 T    0.50 Mw   0.44 G   600 m/turn   20 Kcr
>
>Yugo     115%      3.62 T    0.43 Mw   0.34 G   356 m/turn   6.5 Kcr
>
>Porsche  90%       2.12 T    0.65 Mw   0.55 G   920 m/turn   234 Kcr
>
>
>        First, the prices seem to be about right, and if my guesses as to
>mass and output had been less off the top of my head I suspect that
>performance would have been more in line with reality too.
>
[snip]
>
>*Scientific Wild-Assed Guess Method; similar to the Wild-Assed Guess
>Method, but incorporating corrections for verisimilitude during the
>process.


        It occurs to me that rather than doing it in 30 1% increments like
I did it, you could have a range of 5 increments of 7.5% each corresponding
to your setup.

        Comments?

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick D. Elliott... rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca              |
|                        elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca           |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| "...an imperfect plan implemented immediately and violently |
| will always succeed better than a perfect plan."            |
|                        -Gen. George S. Patton.              |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:31:29 +1000
From: Shane.Dowling@deetya.gov.au
Subject: re: melee weapons

>
>ummm, no.
>The bayonet is a tool, not a weapon
>It caused less than 0.25% of the casualties in the US Civil War (and they
>used them a lot)
>They are useless as a weapon. They are a tool, a morale booster, and
>stinkin' heavy for a
>knife

During WW2 the Aussie in the desert were given a new type of bayonet
that was triangular 
in shape so that it would no get stuck in the victim.  Most complained
about them 
and got the old style ones back because the new ones could open tinned
food.

I have been playing traveller from '84 and my wife does play as well.
We have a wide 
background from roleplayer/boardgames/figure(ancients to WW2 + striker
and striker 2)

my views on what books published for T4

T4 Book           A big mess but trying the games anyway
Starships         warned friend not to get it 
CSC                Not what I wanted so will not get it - told friend to
look at it
AA                  Great - some background on new minor races told
friends to
                       look at it

Overall             We will see, not to standards set by previous books
for traveller 

One thing I have noted in a second hand shop there was T4 and
Starships(1-2 weeks after 
I saw it in local FLGS)    

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:22:17 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: RPVDS = Simple Vehicle Design System

Hi,

As one of the 5% of whiners on the list ;-) I have been accused of not
*doing* anything to help solve the (many, almost insurmountable) problems
of T4. Well, I can assure you that *that* is *not* true --

To whit, the latest version of RPVDS (Role Playing Vehicle Design System)
- -- now known (it sounds better!) as the *SVDS* (*Simple Vehicle Design
System*) is available -- I've posted it to the GDW-BETA mailing list, and
would be happy to post it to anyone on *this* list who would like a copy.
Warning, it weighs in at 324k even zipped and is in Acrobat V3 PDF format
(and has been rendered partly obsolete by a post from Rob Brennan *just as
I was about to mail it* <*sob*>

Still, it seems to work nicely. Can design a reasonable vehicle (and around
24 *now* obsolete **AARRGGHH** vehicles are included as samples), but only
covers wheeled, tracked, and legged ground vehicles at the moment (when I
get *this* fine tuned I'll get right to work on Aircraft and Grav Vehicles,
I promise) -- and can do it all (for the ones I've done so far) in around
10 minutes (of course, these have all been straightforward *civilian*
designs and are quite unarmed).

So, if anyone wants to have a look -- and comments (even ones that render
things obsolete, like Robs <sigh>) are *welcome*. In fact, the more cogent
but constructive criticism the better. So, lemme know if you want a copy
zapped to you!

Also, for those of you who have been in Antarctica, Dark Star #2 (my
"Occasional Traveller Resource") is -- and has been for around 5 1/2 weeks
now -- available. 24 pages of (if I do say so myself!) *neat* Traveller
related articles including --

* "Logical Technology Ratings"

* Trader's Corner (Bookpads and 'Lectrograph Paper)

* Vilani Military Ranks

* Ila'u Class Scout Courier (with detailed deckplans and floorplans for
standardised High, Middle Passage Cabins and other facilities -- including
a detailed layout of the living area of the spaceship, showing furniture
and fittings)

* Endeavour Class Survey Boat (a 10 ton small craft for the Ila'u Scout)

* Emergency Survival System (a better and more logical design than the
"Rescue Ball" in Starships, he modestly says!)

* Medicine and Healing: An Alternative System

* Medical Equipment -- The Traders Corner

* Rank & Retirement Benefits

Now, far be it for me to blow my own trumpet, but one of the prescient
purchasers of DS#1 and #2 has (accurately! <evil grin>) said that it "looks
better than JTAS" ... well, <aw shucks>, what can I do but agree?

Cost? US$8 for the print-on-paper (photocopied -- this is a *fanzine* after
all) version (airmailed) -- and there are 15 left -- or US$5 for the PDF
version (emailed to you). I'll even throw in a copy of the latest and
greatest version of SVDS with every purchase (on disk for the pop and email
for the PDF versions!).

Unfortunately, the only easy way to pay is to send *cash* in US currency
(or Pounds stg or whatever, check with me first if its "whatever") -- but,
hey, no-one has complained that I've ripped them off on the list yet, have
they? Write to --

Phil McGregor
1 Park Street
Harbord   NSW   2096
Australia

A PDF version of DS#1 is available (all the POP versions are sold, sorry)
for US$5 as well, and you can see a print disabled version (downloadable)
on the Draconis Cluster Traveller Page ... or I can send you one direct so
you can see what you're (possibly) getting.

Like I said, a whiner I might be, but I *do* something about making T4
better!!!

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:16:50 +0000
From: "Tim Reynolds" <tim@premier1.premier.net>
Subject: Age and other stuff

Let me introduce myself I am...

My name is Tim Reynolds and I just turned 27 on the 12 ,happy birthday
to me and HAL and Andy Brick.
 I have been playing RPG since I was nine when yet another evil older
 brother introduced me to D&D and  Traveller shortly after our parents
 got on a religious kick about D&D.  I stopped playing Traveller in
 about 85 when I couldn't find anybody to game with as they had all
 moved to another base.  Since then I have played lots of different
 RPG including AD&D, Twilight 2000, Cyber Punk, FWRG(best Fantasy in
 my book) and lately WW game.  I always wanted to get back into
 Traveller but never liked, the new stuff enough to buy any.   Then I
 heard Marc was writing new rules and I picked them up.  I must say I
 found the effort worth it.  I followed the IG website connection
 found the mailing list and the IRC line made new friends and became
 amazed at the love people have for their game.  I believe that
 anybody who wants to should be allowed to roleplay and have actively
 recruit young people as well as females.

I believe that age will not be a problem for T4 because lets face it
we have jobs and money this is much better then  having a bunch of
12-15 vampire freaks who have to beg for money, form parents

As for the idea that T4 is not as good as CT, MT or TNE I must remind
everybody that Traveller is not the only game to go through such
troubles, I still spit in the eye of TSR  for changing systems, but I
have learned to accept 2nd Edition AD&D and  have even started to like
the system.  I believe the same can been done for T4, I personally
don't notice any major rules errors, then again I don't go looking
unless another player spots them, I just don't see a need too, I just
play the game and adapt to the problems  later.

Now, I like T4, even with all the problems that the ML has found and
will activity support the game.  I believe the game has just the right
mix of  hard SF to roleplaying ideas.  I play with the SSDS when ever
I don't have anything else to do it keeps me busy.  I believe that the
system  can be as good as the current Story Telling type games (Star
Wars and WW)  or even better.  Its just the choice of the players and
GM as to how they play hard or soft  this bit is not in the rules(and
should not be that's why I like T4) and cant be fixed by any formulas.

I hope that IG and Sweatpee are getting all this its a great marketing
tool, talk about nailing your customers.


Tim Reynolds 
AKA Grayman
Rule #5: The obvious is more likely to be true than the incredible. 
That's why they call it obvious, dummy. from  George Friedman

PS I am not a GearHead I am a Pol SCI, History, Econ Major who does 
not need to know how to use a spread sheet to live in the 21cen.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:28:46 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Age

At 08:50 PM 1/14/97 +0000, you wrote:
><snip>
>
>One comment on JTAS #25 specifically involves the Silver Moon Incident,
>since when does Traveller have cloaking devices and FTL communications? 
>Shouldn't the adventure in a dedicated support magazine at least follow the
>core rules of the system?  Or did I miss something?
>
>
FF&S page 54+ does provide for alternate communications technology using
subspace. Implication in the text seems to be that you would also be using
the alternative subspace drive instead of the jump drive. 

It is an interesting plot; adjusting around the sub/hyperspace references
would be relatively easy. Failed to report back instead of transmission
abruptly cut off. I did like existance of alternate encounters, selection
dependant upon the actions of the players.

Howver, as a Senior Systems Programmer, I am not sure about the idea of
arming computer operators (Room K, Encounter 21).

I am all for free lancing settings; it would be helpful though for any
variant rules to defined somewhere in the adventure. They usually do a side
bar on a change from the basic rules in Dungeon magazine. 

Garry

  

    

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:45:10 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts

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- -----Original Message-----
From:	JEFF ZEITLIN [SMTP:jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, January 14, 1997 2:00 PM
To:	Traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:	IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts

  I must also take this opportunity to publicly urge IG to
  reopen discussions with Roger Sanger and conclude an agreement
  that will allow the re-release of DGP's old Traveller
  material.  These are resources that Traveller really cannot
  afford to lose, and are representative of the quality that
  will attract people to Traveller.  I fully expect IG to be
  achieving that level of quality by the end of 1997, regularly
  if not consistently - but that's no excuse not to take what
  you can get - and Roger started out as eager to get it back
  out as IG should be.  Unfortunately, IG dropped the ball, and
  it is IG's responsibility to pick it up and run with it.

[Mark Ayers]  Here, Here
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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #847
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 15 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 848



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Das new guy
RE: Cargo Prices
Re: IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts
Re: age
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: Starship Beowolf
Another ^%*ing biography.
Computers in the Social Sciences
Re: Melee Weapons
RE: Cargo Prices
Re: Another ^%*ing biography.
Traveller on IRC....
Re: IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts
Re: Melee Weapons
Traveller memories
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
C'mon, folks - no binary attachments!
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Re: IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts
Re: Traveller Equipment Quality (was Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR
Re: Traveller memories

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:37:28 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: Das new guy

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- -----Original Message-----
From:	TBSVT@aol.com=20
Victor W

[Mark Ayers]  Victor's de lurking Hello has inspired me to add a bit of =
a hello for myself.

I've been at Traveller since the early days and will be at it for many =
more. I am a gearhead in that I like to design equipment and starships. =
For that reason I really like FF&S. The best of all worlds would be a =
completely tableless design system. Give me the formulas and realistic =
reason for limitations and off I will go. I have designed innumerable =
spreadsheets, WordBASIC macros, VBA macros, BASIC and C++ programs for =
personal use.

Even more than stuff though, I love to design places. Lots of places. =
Whole galaxies of places. Down to their most imitate details. I other =
words, I like the control of gaming in a setting I have created. Sure I =
am influenced by the wild and wholly Spinward Marches of CT days and the =
RC of TNE. I especially like what I have gleaned from Marc Miller about =
the nature of the nobility in Milieu 0.

2 cents about the current IG situation. I am confident they will rebound =
from their early mistakes. But then, when did my gaming group ever =
worship a rule they weren't trying to use to manipulate a referee?
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:42:12 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: Cargo Prices

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC0242.46EC0020
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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[Mark Ayers]  Ross says=20
I just noticed that T4 has changed the shipping costs for cargo from =
Cr1,000/ton to Cr4,000/ton.

[Mark Ayers]  Yes it changes things. I did a breakeven analysis on a =
stock freetrader at the new freight carrying rate back during the =
discussion of the economics of bank lending for Freetrader purchases. =
Cr4,000 makes, IMHO, a much more realistic outcome. But then I play with =
all the economic numbers anyway. Gotta keep the poor purser guessing =
even if he is trader-8 broker-8.
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:58:34 -0500
From: Grahame Curtis <gcurtis@morgan.com>
Subject: Re: IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts

Wow, delurking twice in two days...

Re: Jeff's comments on IG and Roger Sanger/DGP

I can't agree enough. What I have seen of DGP's input, comments and ideas
in their products (after correcting their typos) was absolutely first
rate. IG could do *much* worse than reestablishing this relationship...
not only because I would *love* to see what they would make of a post-
rebellion setting without the virus...

Cheers,
Grahame.
,
s

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:01:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Kevin Walsh <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Subject: Re: age

I had been hanging around GDW for a couple of years before Traveller came
out. I got my start gaming, by learning about the Europa series, and some
of the old Avalon Hill classics.

I bought my first boxed set after reading the review in Dragon #18
but didnt get a chance to really play until that following January
when I went to my first gaming convention[Winter Wars] where I ended up
playing in the Traveller tournament, that would later become "Shadows"

I got hooked, and have collected and played ever since

I helped judge a 4 day event at Gencon called "Prisoner of Paradise"

I was saddened to see GDW go boom, but maybe we can look forward to it
rising to new heights.

"Rise Again, Rise Again, let her name not be lost to the knowledge of 
Friends"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:35:18 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> I'd like to the the Naasirka 2015-B jump drive, the best available in
> M0, be replaced by the Naasirka 5415-Z jump drive in M200.  And, if
> you're playing in M200, it would be neat to see an old rust bucket
> with those "old 2015's" on her.
> 
> What do you guys think?

Great idea, if financially feasible for IG. This kind of detail can
add alot of atmosphere which is one of the reasons why I was so glad
to pick up CSC; I'm using it as background info for an 1100s campaign.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:56:43 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts

Post Rebellion without virus....what if Lucan made Virus, but it didn't
magically trash a 20year old universe? 

What if the Rebellion just burned the life out of the Imperium, leaving
it to rebuild in a new manner-still the Third Imperium, but irrevocably
altered.

That's sort of my campaign, Naryanganjo Corridor.  No magic bullets to
end the hate or pain.  Only the inevitable future.

IMHO, TNE system was sort of nifty, especially FFS.  I wished it had had
more higher tech detatiled, but it was great.  

But they killed my baby. I just didn't have the stomach for it
afterwards; I tried too.  Then the RC got a little too much attitude,
and I just did not enjoy.  

Traveller is the Third Imperium for me, the system be damned as long as
its usable.  Thats not to say I wouldn't be pleased with a good one.

Tom Lane

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:00:58 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

> Great idea, if financially feasible for IG. This kind of detail can
> add alot of atmosphere which is one of the reasons why I was so glad
> to pick up CSC; I'm using it as background info for an 1100s campaign.

What period in the 1100's?  

Tom Lane

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:17:19 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Beowolf

mark james wilkin wrote:
> 
> I was just wondering something did anyone ever acutally answer this ships
> distress call and did we find out about it?
> mark wilkin

Yep. One of the short stories in the new JTAS #25 covers it.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:47:08 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Another ^%*ing biography.

        Since everyone seems to be posting theirs, I figure I might as well
bail in and waste even more bandwidth.  As I've already noted, I'm 29.  I'm
in 4th year law at McGill University, where I did my Anthropology BA.  I
share an apartment in Notre Dame de Grace (a neighbourhood in Montreal)
with my girlfriend of 9 years, three cats, and two peachfaced lovebirds.
Back before law school, I used to fence and jog.


I've been playing Traveller since 1996, when noted TML slander artist Ross
Coburn introduced me to the game.  The first campaign that I played in was
rather shortlived, as we managed to blow out the M-drive and burn the ship
up in the third or fourth session.  My other RPG experience has been
minimal; I played a bit of D&D in the early 80's, but gave it up: I found
it annoyingly unrealistic.  I still diss it every chance I get.  About 3
years ago, I started playing Vampire:The Masquerade.  I enjoyed that, but
am now somewhat bored.  After 3+ years in law school, the horror of slowly
being changed into an inhuman bloodsucking monster seems pretty tame :).

        As I've mentioned, I'm getting a Traveller campaign off the ground.
I'll use the opportunity to playtest the system, and will bore you all
with synopses.

        And that's that.

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick D. Elliott... rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca              |
|                        elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca           |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| "...an imperfect plan implemented immediately and violently |
| will always succeed better than a perfect plan."            |
|                        -Gen. George S. Patton.              |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 21:23:19 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Computers in the Social Sciences

On 01/14/97 at 06:16 PM,  "Tim Reynolds" <tim@premier1.premier.net> said:

> PS I am not a GearHead I am a Pol SCI, History, Econ Major who does  not
> need to know how to use a spread sheet to live in the 21cen.

Yeah, but you might have to in order to *graduate* in your major. <g> If
not spreadsheets then certainly statistical software like SAS or SPSS.  

My first degree was in Pol Sci, History & Econ, in those days it was called
Social Science Interdisciplinary. In that program we had to learn how to
use computers well enough to do statistics and run simulations. My Profs
drilled in the facts and theory, but they graded on how well we *analyzed*
and interpreted, and often we analyzed the data with computers.

I remember a project in one political science class where we had to dig out
data from old census records and do a statistical analysis of the changes
in economic and social character in a political district...and then project
the effects of those changes on the voting habits of the district.  The
election that fall sort of provided the baseline for the instructors
grading. <g>  

In another class we had to analyze the birth and death records over a
period of time in a colonial city, and determine things like changes in
life span, number of children per family, number of children reaching
maturity, divorce rates, etc. The next step would have been to draw
conclusions from the data, we didn't get that far in that course, but I
remember the Professor eventually got an article out of our research. 

Don't tell me social scientists don't use computers! <g>


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:10:50 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Melee Weapons

Douglas wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Rich Ostorero wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > On neighboring Ordun (LL:2), the _code duello_ requires magnum revolvers
> > . . . and duellists may not wear armor! David Weber's _Code of Dishonor_
> > contains the model for my Ordun duelling protocol -- and the _code_ is
> > available to _non-nobles_! Folks on Ordun epitomize the saying, "An
> > armed society is a polite society."
> 
> This is not meant to snipe at an otherwise very interesting and
> informative article, but the title of the book is "Field of Dishonor".
> The Honor Harrington series is an excellent resource for anyone interested
> in running an active duty PC -type campaign, BTW.

No kidding! The ship-to-ship combat consistantly
had me on the edge of my seat. The author, David
Weber, writes a *mean* engagement.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:32:57 -0600
From: "J.D. Burdick" <twolf@tfs.net>
Subject: RE: Cargo Prices

        At 05:42 PM 1/14/97 -0800, you wrote:
>[Mark Ayers]  Ross says 
>I just noticed that T4 has changed the shipping costs for cargo from
Cr1,000/ton to Cr4,000/ton.
>
T4 does not change the cost for cargo.  It has been 4,000cr/ton since
Merchant Prince.  It was that way in MT and TNE.  You are confusing cargo
with freight.  Freight is what you carry for someone else, cargo is what you
buy to resale.  T4 doesn't state what you get for carrying freight.  It is
part of what IG lefted out of the Trade and Commerce section.  Now as a
referee you can decide how much to give to carry freight.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:44:53 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Another ^%*ing biography.

Gee, this age/biography thingy is sortof taken on a life of its own!

The average age is about 27 or so.  I just wanted to see how many of you
were going to be around when I croak, still buying Traveller stuff.

Its great to hear the stories, though!  Since this has evolved beyond
its humble beginnings, I'll give a blurb.

I started playing Traveller in 1982 at 15, played ADD until it sucked
too bad, then played Rolemaster.  Had some hokey campaigns, but kept
playing Traveller for the whole time.  In 85 I joined the USAF in search
of Pilot-1 skill, went off to the school for wayward boys in
Colorado(topsecret USAF-only code there!) then went to pilot training.

Since I didn't play Traveller there, I sort of absorbed the universe
through DGP's books and GDW's stuff.  Rolled "battle" on my duty
assignment in 1991, flying the mighty B-52 TL5 bomber, flew the TL7 B-1B
afterwards and life has kind of dragged a bit since. (A battle tour will
do that to ya'.)

I'm now in San Antonio learning to teach kids how to fly jets, and
wondering if... 

I'LL EVER FIND SOME GAMERS!!!  EMAIL ME!!!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:48:15 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller on IRC....

Greetings!

Thursday night is Traveller Night on IRC!  This week on #traveller we 
will be discussing First Contact situations.  How to play them, from 
both the GM perspective and the player's perspective.  What kinds of 
things can happen, what should be avoided, and whatever else we can 
think of.  It will be an "open floor" discussion, with no guest 
speaker and no moderation.  Just jump right in and join the 
discussion, or sit in a corner and listen.  

As always, we are on undernet, #traveller, and the server of choice 
is:

stlouis.mo.us.undernet.org, ports 6660-6669

5:00pm PST
6:00pm MST
7:00pm CST
8:00pm EST

Last week's walk-thru of SSDS was, unfortunately, canceled at the 
last minute.  We were fortunate to have Sinbad Sam with us, and he 
kindly did a walk thru of VDS for us.  Thank you, Sinbad Sam for 
sharing your knowledge with us.  (btw, anyone I promised a copy of 
the log, please email me, I lost my list :-(   )

Coming soon:  Design Workshops.  We are in the planning stages of a 
series of Design Workshops to do walk-thrus of all the design systems 
we can think of, QSDS, SSDS, VDS, 3G3, and have even had an offer for 
doing a retro-walk-thru of High Guard and Striker.  FF&S, anyone? <g> 
These would take place on a night or weekend other than our Thursday 
night sessions, so email me your preferences.... I'd especially like 
to hear from our overseas list members... what time of day is good 
for you (please try to translate to one of the US time zones for this 
time-zone challenged person... I am learning <g>)?

I am also actively soliciting good topics for our Thursday night 
sessions and, when appropriate, volunteers to lead the discussion.  
Anyone want to volunteer to lead a discussion about Wolrd Detailing?  
Someone familiar with World Builders Handbook, perhaps?

Sorry for the length!  See you on #traveller!

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:15:47 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts

Tom Lane said: 

> What if the Rebellion just burned the life out of the Imperium, leaving
> it to rebuild in a new manner-still the Third Imperium, but irrevocably
> altered.

You mean like, say, the Regency, except it's all over 3I space? Fascinating
idea, Tom.
> 
> That's sort of my campaign, Naryanganjo Corridor.  No magic bullets to
> end the hate or pain.  Only the inevitable future.
> 
> IMHO, TNE system was sort of nifty, especially FFS.  I wished it had had
> more higher tech detatiled, but it was great.  

I'm a big fan of both TNE _and_ the RC. Given GDW's decision to Virus the
Third Imperium, the RC was inevitable.

> 
> But they killed my baby. I just didn't have the stomach for it
> afterwards; I tried too.  Then the RC got a little too much attitude,
> and I just did not enjoy.  

I happen to love the RC's attitude: the one that says "Never Again" to the
excesses of the Imperium.

- --Rich
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:08:31 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Melee Weapons

> > 
> > This is not meant to snipe at an otherwise very interesting and
> > informative article, but the title of the book is "Field of Dishonor".
> > The Honor Harrington series is an excellent resource for anyone
interested
> > in running an active duty PC -type campaign, BTW.
> 
> No kidding! The ship-to-ship combat consistantly
> had me on the edge of my seat. The author, David
> Weber, writes a *mean* engagement.

You said it! I'm also fascinated by the tech and the competing societies. 

Any of you read his two novels set in the universe of TFG's _Starfire_?

Another reason to read the HH books: Nimitz. He's a stud . . . .  :)

- --Rich
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:50:54 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Traveller memories

This is my first time on the TML, and the first time I have tried Traveller
for about 10 years. A friend and I ran a shared campaign (a playing style
which I heartily recommend) during university. The classic rules were easy
to play, though the lack of explanation of the technology led to some
pretty strange rules interpretations. The thing that most interested me was
not the rules, but the adventuring potential I saw in the game. The other
RPGs we played tended to stick to fairly stereotypical story lines, but the
Third Imperium had enormous freedom for plots and adventures. The players
could be merchants, mercernaries, explorers, scientists, criminals,
trouble-shooters, ambassadors, entertainers, working stiffs, and
enterpreneurs on a hundred different planets with a dozen different
technologies. We did a lot of wild stuff and never repeated ourselves.

The campaign started to wind down when MegaTraveller came out; partially
because we didn't have as much time then and didn't like the new rules, but
for me the Rebellion Milieu just wasn't as interesting a place to adventure
in. Sure there were a lot of interesting wars, but there seemed to be less
for players to do. Trade and exploration seemed pointless, and the players
were insignificant in combat with those enormous fleets zipping around. The
sessions began to turn into 'firefight of the week'. I never played The New
Era, nor did I have any interest in it. In my opinion the game destroyed
everything I liked about Traveller and promoted everything I disliked. I
take it this topic has been debated to death, so I won't try to add any
more gasoline to the flamage.

The reason I mention this at all is that, to me, Traveller is not the
combat rules or design sequences or SF technology or the adventures, but
the story of the Third Imperium. Unlike most other game settings you can't
describe the whole thing in just a sentence. And like my favorite books and
movies, I sometimes find myself just sitting and thinking how wonderful it
is.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 01:44:22 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

> > Great idea, if financially feasible for IG. This kind of detail can
> > add alot of atmosphere which is one of the reasons why I was so glad
> > to pick up CSC; I'm using it as background info for an 1100s campaign.
> 
> What period in the 1100's?  
> 
> Tom Lane

Hey Tom,

The original game, what we now call CT, was started in the year 1105. 
 Each real year represented a year of time in the Imperium's 
history, and the JTAS kept up with the events that happened as we went
along.

I've got to tell you, it was neat seeing the Fifth Frontier War and 
the Rebellion unfold right before our eyes in real time.

Kenneth.
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:43:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: C'mon, folks - no binary attachments!

Hi, fellow TMLers...

Might I respectfully and with utmost courtesy suggest that anyone unable
to tame his or her mail program refrain from posting to the TML?  The
flood of WINMAIL.DAT, Base64 sections, and whatnot is seriously annoying,
especially in the digest.  Take a few moments and learn how to turn them
off in your particular mail program...or use Unix mail, pine, elm, or some
other resident of The Operating System God Intended For The Net, for
guaranteed good results.

Now, back to Foss bashing, already in progress.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 01:47:40 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

 This kind of detail can
> add alot of atmosphere which is one of the reasons why I was so glad
> to pick up CSC; I'm using it as background info for an 1100s campaign.

Same here.  I like the 1100's.  If you are going to play Traveller, 
you might as well start with the good stuff.

BTW, I never liked the TNE setting, and when they first announced M0, 
I was resistance.  But I gotta admit, I'm starting to like the idea 
of M0.  I see some really fun adventure possibilities.  

The frontier, new contact, and all that.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 01:50:33 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

>
> Yes, I knew it. I cast my vote and lost. But I can grin and bear it; I
> still have my copy of High Guard that I secretly carry around in a brown
> paper bag. Now that I'm done writing, I can finally put some work into
> that High-Guard-to-T4 conversion system that I promised so many months
> ago.

You'd better send me a copy of it.  I like High Guard as well.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:07:24 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts

>   I must also take this opportunity to publicly urge IG to
>   reopen discussions with Roger Sanger and conclude an agreement
>   that will allow the re-release of DGP's old Traveller
>   material.  

I think that this is one excellent idea.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:24:57 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Equipment Quality (was Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR

> A quality system such as the above can be abused, no one cares what the
> quality of every nut and bolt they own is -- nor is the paperwork worth
> the effort. But, I agree with Kenneth. A system such as this can add
> some neat roleplaying opportunities.

Damn, Glenn, what a reply!  I'm glad I didn't suggest anything about 
jumpspace!:)

Since the system might not be for everybody, I suggest that it be 
optional.  You have you basic system used in QSDS or SSDS or FF&S or 
whatever which uses base line equipment, periferals, and parts.

The specific quality stuff will be, as you suggest, variations on 
this base line stuff.  It could have plus this or negative that.  

This would keep the system totally optional but mutually integratable 
with the base line system.

I like it.

> "Welcome to Crazi Eneri's Used Air Rafts! What are you looking for
> today? Perhaps you'd be interested in this little number... it's a Ling
> Standard Products model 6430 Open topped air raft. Barely used by some
> old Newt who drove it to the beach on weekends... I see by your look
> that you'd like something that will turn more heads... Howzabout this
> beaut! It's an Iridium Industries Stratosfera CX... a little more
> pricey, but worth every credit! . . ."

My momma told me about salesmen like you...

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:35:19 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller memories

> The reason I mention this at all is that, to me, Traveller is not the
> combat rules or design sequences or SF technology or the adventures, but
> the story of the Third Imperium. Unlike most other game settings you can't
> describe the whole thing in just a sentence. And like my favorite books and
> movies, I sometimes find myself just sitting and thinking how wonderful it
> is.

Boy, you ain't kiddin'.  In my experience with talking to other 
Traveller players, they are always changing the rules.  Everyone, 
including myself, has a house system.

What that tells me is that there are problems, historically, with the 
Traveller rules, regardless of the edition.  People don't change the 
rules to other games near as enough.  I've got a new player straight 
from AD&D who commented this to me.  He said that he never questioned 
the rules--they seemed right and we used them.  With Traveller, we 
are always questioning if the game mechanic accurately portrays what 
it is meant to.

Yes.  You are definietly right.  What attracts people to Traveller is 
the atmosphere, the story, the versitility, the history.  It's not 
the earth shaking game mechanics.

Traveller is a universe that I would read about.  It attracts me much 
in the same way Star Trek does (but has a much different feel).  I 
like it better than Star Wars.

And what is cool about it is that you can have any kind of campaign 
with Traveller.  You want a David Drake Hammer's Slammers 
adventure--it's there.  You want a Star Wars type, well OK.  You want 
Aliens, no problem.  You want any number of science fiction universes 
from novels--well, it's got that too.

You can play the Imperium as written, or it is easily adaptable to 
any type of science fiction that your heart desires.

It is what keeps us all coming back.

Kenneth.
> 
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #848
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 15 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 849



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Melee Weapons
Combat agility & missiles in T4
Scout/Courier and Free-Trader
Re: IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts
Re: Rob Dean
Age & Traveller
Traveller memories
Traveller/BAB5
DGP IS DEAD, FOSS BASHING
Applause, Aliens, Age
Re: Rob Dean
Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS
Traveller Newbie Bio
Re: IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts
Re: Rob Dean
Re: Traveller/BAB5
*>FLASH<* Crisis at Planet X Resolved

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:54:39 -0800
From: "Douglas" <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Melee Weapons

> 
> > > 
> > > This is not meant to snipe at an otherwise very interesting and
> > > informative article, but the title of the book is "Field of
Dishonor".
> > > The Honor Harrington series is an excellent resource for anyone
> interested
> > > in running an active duty PC -type campaign, BTW.
> > 
> > No kidding! The ship-to-ship combat consistantly
> > had me on the edge of my seat. The author, David
> > Weber, writes a *mean* engagement.
> 
> You said it! I'm also fascinated by the tech and the competing societies.

> 
> Any of you read his two novels set in the universe of TFG's _Starfire_?
> 
> Another reason to read the HH books: Nimitz. He's a stud . . . .  :)
> 
> --Rich
> lordbasl@inreach.com

One of the very basic things I like about David Weber is his ability to
write personal drama (Honor Harrington) with just as much color and
excitement as his combat scenes (interpersonal, ship-to-ship, and fleet
actions), and still be able to give us background and insights to Honors
Universe _WITHOUT_ getting bogged down or lost in _any_ one part of it. 
Basically, he reminds me of H. Beam Piper and Jerry Pournelle - wrapped up
in
a single author!
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

- ----
E-MAIL: douglas@teleport.com
HTTP://www.teleport.com/~douglas

Never anger a dragon, for they find you are crunchy and go well with brie!
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

- ----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:06:43 -0800
From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
Subject: Combat agility & missiles in T4

Well... I finally got some spreadsheets, and at this point I'm basically
willing to throw my hands in the air and go on blind faith and hope
whoever created them knew exactly what he was doing, despite their
tendency to freak out and excitedly flash #VALUE! at me in half the
cells in a sheet... At any rate, I can design NPAWS now, which makes me
happy, and that's a start. Many thanks to Chris Cox, who emailed them to
me, and to whoever at the Vyborg campaign page wrote them.

So I'm finally ready to knuckle down and dust off some very
highly-refined military starship design concepts -- some of which I've
been nursing along for literally years -- but I've got two specific
questions first, because a lot of the folks out here are elbow-deep in
That Which Is To Be, and after referring to individual to individual,
I've given up trying to figure out who is doing what. For what it's
worth: Wildstar, Joe Walsh, Dave Golden -- if you guys read this along
with everybody else en masse, I'd especially value your input.

First: Are we going to have a CHOICE between an advanced design/combat
system (the two drive each other) that treats a missile launcher as
basically just another weapon -- with complete fire control for
everything it can launch -- and treating these swarms of missiles as
individual munitions? Which may be more realistic, but completely
unmanageable for fleet combat as far as I can imagine. It makes my feet
itch. Why for pity's sake can't we just assume a default of a
semi-active radar homing missile with adequate fire control for each
tube (you get a lock, you shoot 'em; nice and easy, just like in the old
days), with additional options for the gearheads? Or something?
Anything?

As you can likely tell, the whole issue of mismatching numbers of
missile tubes versus the number of missiles the MFD will control versus
maintaining your target locks during flight and remembering which ship
launched 'em is still driving me up the wall. As a gaming and design
issue, it is terribly kludgy and in-elegant, particularly when you take
into account that the little thingies you are going to so much trouble
to track do such miniscule amounts of damage.... and I don't think the
kids will get it. (No, do NOT tell me to wait for fire and forget
munitions in the new FF&S. They'll probably be as expensive as hell, and
I like building cost-effective ships. Unless THEY are considered the
universal default...? That might be nice. What kind of missiles were we
shooting at each other all those years in CT and MT?)

Second -- and heretofore totally unaddressed anywhere I've looked -- To
Be Agile Or Not To Be Agile in T4? And if so, by what means? Thrust to
weight? Thrust to displacement? And with what qualifiers?

Whatever combat system emerges from the welter of discussion of the
digest will have to include different levels of complexity (Easy vs.
Advanced ship combat) without radically affecting the efficiency of each
ship design. Excellent examples of this are the differing (x10) armor
ratings for role-playing and ship combat systems =96 you're still talking
about the same amount of armor; you're just looking at it differently.
Higher rates of fire give better chances to hit in an advanced combat
scheme, but merely do a bit more damage in the basic one. That's fine,
too. Not precise, but workable. It's almost like going from SSDS to
QSDS, if you see the parallel.

But if whoever is writing up the advanced starship combat system
suddenly decides to include combat agility as an expression of weight
versus excess thrust (or power output, as in MegaTraveller), all your
QSDS and SSDS ships suddenly turn into crippled pigs. That is not fine.
It's horrible. (I don't wanna design a whole slew of killer-diller
starships and have them turn into crippled pigs, so I'm trying to get
the scoop. Presumably, neither is anybody else. That sort of whiplash
has already been inflicted on a whole generation of first-time buyers
with the whole QSDS versus SSDS versus impossible-stock-ships thing. I'm
not sure the market will absorb another. I sure as hell won't.)

Plus you fall into the ancient hideous trap of having to refigure
everything else to figure your maneuver drive because it apparently
doesn't produce enough thrust to push itself, then you need a bigger
power plant because the maneuver drive requires more power, then a
bigger maneuver drive because the bigger power plant weighs more... That
sort of thing drove me stark raving rat-bastard mad for years. It is
reassuringly and refreshingly absent in the T4 system, despite the other
teething pains, but I have a nasty feeling it will come back to haunt
me. Why else are we figuring out in SSDS how HEAVY everything is?=20

So I suggest that we head this nightmare off at the pass by going with
extra tons of thrust versus displacement to determine agility =96 you buy
a 10G drive, then you have, say, thrust 6 and agility 4. Or you can
"channel all power to maneuver drives!" for 'emergency agility', or
parcel your total G-ratings between thrust and agility as you please by
making Engineering rolls ["Dammit, Scotty, get us out of here! I need
more power to the thrusters!"].=20

You can justify all of this by saying that once you discover artificial
gravity [only a verrrry narrow cross-section of emerging civilizations
won't, and it is arguably easier just to have a game supplement to cover
them], weight effectively becomes a moot point as far as propulsion is
concerned. And it would be workable for all different kinds of
propulsion: chem rockets and bullshittium intertialess thrusters alike.
Whatever they come up with, it ought to be non-tortuous and easy to
remember while maintaining internal consistency with the physics of the
Traveller universe.

Anybody know? Missile fire control and combat agility in T4 -- what's
the digs?

Long Live The Imperium!

- -- Jay Stranahan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:12:22 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Scout/Courier and Free-Trader

	Here is re-designed versions of Scout/Courier and Free-Trader.
	The USP data is based on a fully optimized FFS design, and the
	ships should be more capable of performing their tasks than
	those shown in T4 rulebook.

	Note that according to the description of Scout/Courier, the
	ship should have "high sensor capabilities", while the T4
	version had only mediocre sensors.

- ---

Scout/Courier
Tons 100			Volume 1400			Cost in MCr 77.136
Crew 6				Passengers High 0/Medium 3
				Passengers Low 0
Cargo 35			Controls: Fib			TL 12
8 Size Rating			2 Jump Rating
0 Fire Control Rating	2 G Rating/Thruster plate
				2 Power Plant Rating
				21.1 Fuel Rating/Scoop/Refine
				0 Meson Screen Rating
				0 Sandcaster Rating
				0 Damper Rating
				10A [5P] 0J Sensor Rating
				10 Armor			6 Structure
Subcraft: 2-ton Air/Raft

Scout/Courier: Using a 100-ton streamlined wedge hull, the scout/courier
is intended for exploration, survey and courier duties, with many in
service throughout known space. It is used when a ship of long-range
duration and high sensor capabilities are called for. The ship is
capable of operating for months without returning to a base or home
planet.

While the scout/courier can be operated by a single man, it has normal
crew of six (2xManeuver, 2xElectronics, 1xEngineer, 1xCommand), and may
also include a gunner. There is 7 small staterooms, so if the crew is
willing to live in double-occupancy, 3 passengers can be transported.

The PEMS sensor has folding sensor array, and works as P3 when folded
and P5 when opened.

The scout/courier is fitted with one 3-ton turret socket, which can be
fitted with a laser turret (LTM-115-5-2), missile turret (MTM-7-10-2),
sand caster, or 3-ton socket liferaft. Power surplus is only 0.5 MW, so
laser turret can be powered by tuning down other equipment.

- ---

Free-Trader
Tons 200			Volume 2800			Cost in MCr 60.404
Crew 6				Passengers High 0/Medium 12
				Passengers Low 0
Cargo 90			Controls: Std			TL 12
8 Size Rating			2 Jump Rating
0 Fire Control Rating	1 G Rating/Thruster plate
				0.6 Power Plant Rating
				40.7 Fuel Rating/Scoop/Refine
				0 Meson Screen Rating
				0 Sandcaster Rating
				0 Damper Rating
				1A 3P 0J Sensor Rating
				10 Armor			6 Structure
Subcraft: 2-ton Air/Raft

Free-Trader: Using 200-ton streamlined disk hull, the free-trader is an
elementary interstellar merchant ship, carrying cargo and passengers. It
is used as the primary trade and passenger mover in the imperium. Other
civilizations have similar designs for the same purpose. It has the
capability of entering atmospheres, making it good for service to
planets without orbital platforms or stations.

Free-trader can be operated by 2-man crew, but has the normal crew of 6
(2xManeuver, 2xElectronics, 1xEngineer, 1xCommand). There is total of 18
staterooms; 6 for crew and 12 for passengers. If gunners or stewards are
required, the passenger allowance drops to 10.

The free-trader is fitted with two 3-ton turret sockets, which can be
fitted with laser turrets (LTM-115-5-2), missile turrets (MTM-7-10-2),
sand casters, or 3-ton socket liferafts. There is no surplus power, and
weapons can be powered only by turning of non-essential systems (fuel
purification plant, artificial gravity in cargo hold, radio transmitter). 



        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 01:17:43 -0800 (PST)
From: "Kelly St.clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts

Rich (lordbasl@inreach.com) wrote:

>I happen to love the RC's attitude: the one that says "Never Again" to the
>excesses of the Imperium.

Is THAT what the RC's attitude was?  I thought it was more like:

"We have the moral right to go in and steal the property of, or outright
  depose, any government we don't like - on the grounds that our
  supposedly democratic band of techno-despots can put it to better use
  than the other, less ambitious techno-despots.  We're not satisfied
  with just one planet, see.  And heck, even if some people say it's
  not moral, WE have bigger GUNS!  That MAKES it right!"

"How'd we come up with this policy?  Why, our good friends the Hivers
  suggested it to us..."


The RCES are the direct spiritual successors to that oldest RPG cliche,
  the heavily-armed group of misfits who engage in breaking and entering,
  looting, armed robbery, mass murder, etc. secure in the knowledge that
  "it's okay, they're just orcs."

Me, I gave up dungeon crawls years ago.  Sorry.


- -----------------
Kelly St.Clair        (Not that Classic Traveller was much better.
kellys@efn.org         I once heard an estimate that at least half 
                       of the published adventures involved some
                       kind of criminal activity...)

                      And yes, I do have a sense of humor.  Honest.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:36:36 +0000 (GMT)
From: Alan Huscroft <A.A.F.Huscroft@reading.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Rob Dean

Keith Thoms <kthoms@nooster.nosc.mil> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Rob Dean robdean@access.digex.net wrote:
> > I probably also come close to qualifying as a TML dinosaur, having joined
> > up in 1990.  Any other long service veterans still lurking out there?  Hans
> > is still here regularly, and I saw George Herbert post last week...
[snip]
> As for other long service vets, Mark Cook did some posting in September,
> but jeez it's hard to keep up with this traffic nowadays.  Mark & Mike
> Metlay's Elissa PBEM is sadly mothballed for good.  Looks like we'll never
> escape from the 'Wire', and the disappeared ringworld is forever lost :(

But still fondly remembered.  I'm another dinosaur who's been on the TML
since 1990 but rarely posts these days.  How many other PBEM folks are
still lurking around?

- --
Alan Huscroft     A.A.F.Huscroft@reading.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 04:58:41 -0500
From: "Bill Beane" <concord-tech@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Age & Traveller

<sleep mode off>

I'm 34 years old and starting playing Traveller in 1978.....

I was into models and was visiting the local hobby shop, when I overheard
some guys talking about playing some fantasy game like Lord of the
Rings.....

After speaking with them for a few *hours*, I left the store with a little
white box containing three little brown books.....Original D&D.....

When I returned to the store the next week, I found this neat little black
book with a red-orange stripe.....Book 4 Mercenary.....I was hooked.....so
I asked the guy who ran the store where the first three books of the series
where and he said he didn't have them in stock.....

The next week I bought JTAS #3.....and finally after waiting an eternity
(maybe 4 weeks), I got the little black box.....Classic Traveller.....

Since then I have collected almost all of the CT, MT and TNE products.....

My initial thoughts on T4 are much the same as those that have be flying
around the list since I joined a few weeks ago.....so I will not echo that
now.....

The last few products: CSC, AA and JTAS #25 are what I would have expected
from a start up game company good solid materials.....not great mind you,
there is still room for improvement and I truly hope this happens.....

One comment on JTAS #25 specifically involves the Silver Moon Incident,
since when does Traveller have cloaking devices and FTL communications? 
Shouldn't the adventure in a dedicated support magazine at least follow the
core rules of the system?  Or did I miss something?


<re-enter sleep mode>

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:24:59 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Traveller memories

Kenneth, im sorry but i disagree with your AD&D player there is a lot wrong
with that system as well, its just that most people have there on house
rules and don't shout about it, for instance we banned magic missile
because we couldn't agree on the interpretation, it states that a missile
hits its target unerringly doing 1d4+1 damage, however it does not damage
inanimate objects, so you cannot damage a lock with it, however you cannot
fire it through an opening of less than an arrow slit in castle, this
sounds fine until the mage is faced with an armored knight in full plate
waving a large piece of cutlery at him, the armour is made of inanimate
material i.e. steel and so cannot be damaged, and the only chinks are the
eye slits which are certainly smaller than the holes in the walls of castle
to ping arrows out of. see what i mean my game group argued for 5 hours
over this before eliminating the spell totally			



Colin Hollands	
Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
MIS Europe & Africa Region
Phone:	0171 413 3413
Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:51:31 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Traveller/BAB5

Two things has anybody attempted yet to convert BAB5 to T4, i'd be
interested in this, a friend of mine is trying to create the NAAN at the
moment,

Second and this may already have been covered in early TML's, if so i
apologize i've only been subscribed a week, but in T4 character gen you can
only become a commando as a post Honours Graduate course to a forces
academy, preverbial rose fertilizer, why change it from the MT special
mission  which i think worked and is more realistic, i don't know how it
works in the americas but if you join the forces over here, you can't go
streight into special forces (I.E. the SAS) you have to have a parent unit
which you have been with for a number of years first such as the Para's
prove your worth thier before applying and then taking a two year probation
before being accepted into the ranks, and if you happen to be an orifficor
then you are limited to only three years service anyway before being
shipped back to your parent unit.



Colin Hollands	
Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
MIS Europe & Africa Region
Phone:	0171 413 3413
Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 12:03:20 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: DGP IS DEAD, FOSS BASHING

DGP IS DEAD (or is it?)

Grahame Curtis <gcurtis@morgan.com> said:
>Re: Jeff's comments on IG and Roger Sanger/DGP
>I can't agree enough. What I have seen of DGP's input, comments and ideas
>in their products (after correcting their typos) was absolutely first
>rate. IG could do *much* worse than reestablishing this relationship...
>not only because I would *love* to see what they would make of a post-
>rebellion setting without the virus...

I hate to dull your enthusiasm (and to repeat the following which has been
said on the TML time and time again), but the original DGP - the writers and
artists who created the Traveller products - are no longer anything to do
with the DGP that is owned by Roger Sanger. I wholeheartedly agree that it
would be useful to have direct access to the old DGP material, but T4
products are allowed to use DGP material anyway provided they don't quote
verbatim, so most of the 'value' of the DGP material will (I assume)
eventually make its way back into the T4 marketplace in IG products.

Even should DGP be licensed to *re-*print their stuff, don't expect to see
*new* material from them but DO be thankful that Roger had the foresight to
grab their archives before they were lost. Roger's DGP now has its own
'vision' of a RPG product.

This posting is intended to remedy the strange glazing over of the eyes
(shortly followed by loss of all common sense and then brain death) that
affects anyone mentioning the name "DGP" on this list. Take one pink pill a
day and repeat 100 times "It's not the same DGP."

UNTAMED BASE64

As Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> suggested,

>Might I respectfully and with utmost courtesy suggest that anyone unable
>to tame his or her mail program refrain from posting to the TML?

Might I totally UNrespectfully request the same. If you don't know what your
e-mail system is churning out, then you shouldn't be posting to a list which
is received by 450-odd people.

>Now, back to Foss bashing, already in progress.

I'd like to bid $6500 for the upper left arm please. Oh, it's extra to use a
*spiked* weapon is it? Ok, I'll just have the standard club then. WHACK.
WHACK...

Only kidding - Chris is a good friend of mine! :-)

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:38:36 -0500 (EST)
From: SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
Subject: Applause, Aliens, Age

Hi all:

First off, I wanted to stand up and be counted as one of the folks who has
noticed that IG seems to be improving both their products and their apparent
interest in getting a good product out to the fans and potential fans.
 Though I am a die-hard CT player, I do indeed purchase every T4 product with
the same dogged determination that I fill in my beloved CT/MT/TNE collection.
 The rules are of little use to me, but the rest of the info can be "morphed"
to fit any campaign.  AA (despite it's use of the typeface for the senior
citizen edition Reader's Digests -- HEY!  Maybe they know the age of their
audience! ;-)) was a vast improvement as was CSC (barring ugly illos -- but
it could be worse).

JTAS was a surprise to me in that it did not "look" like, well, Challenge.
 But then, that was my own improper expectation.  It more resembles SOTK's
various genre magazines -- not a bad thing other than I would like to see it
get its own distinctive appearance.  So there is room to improve, but it
isn't a bad start.  I also don't consider it such a bad value for the price
in today's current gaming market.  You are indeed plunking your $5 down for a
publication that is ALL Traveller and not one Traveller article amidst
assorted could-care-less things and adverts.

ALIENS
A few digests ago someone mentioned the Colonial Marines Technical Manual for
Aliens.  That can also be had through a company called "Star Tech" who sell
all sorts of things for media: B5, XFiles, Star Trek, Lost In Space.....
 They also offered the technical readouts for the  AD-17N "Comanche" Assault
Dropship and the M114A1 "Powell" Mobile Infantry Combat Vehicle.  BTW, all
three things are way cool.

AGE
And last but not least -- and since some of the rest of you spoke up so
boldly -- I'm 35.  I got a late start gaming in 1980 with D&D, and though I
purchased such goodies as the CT rules HB and various and sundry aliens
modules back then, I didn't actually start playing until two years ago in the
genre.  Now it's one of my all time faves!

Our main GM is 38, and two of the players I know the ages of are 31 (the
Munchkin) and 27-ish (Mr Ninja).  That is not because we can not find younger
players, mind you, but because we do not look for them since our playing
schedule is rather odd and late in the night to accommodate working
schedules.

I played in one of the games IG ran at GenCon 96 and I was one of two females
(the other was attached at the hip to her boyfriend who attended, but still
pleasantly active in the game), and I would guess the ages ranged from 19 to
35-ish, those of us who were older had been playing Traveller previously, the
younger bodies were newbies to it.

Oh, yeah, one more thing....

My FLGS reports that T4 is indeed selling well.

I'm outta here,

Niko

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 14:41:29 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Rob Dean

Keith Thoms wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Rob Dean robdean@access.digex.net wrote:
>>I probably also come close to qualifying as a TML dinosaur, having joined
>>up in 1990.  Any other long service veterans still lurking out there?  Hans
>>is still here regularly, and I saw George Herbert post last week...
> 
>Hans has been ranting about the Vargr inability to overrun Corridor for
>six or seven years now.  ;-)

Well, it's usually the Aslan _ihatei's_ inability to overrun Tobia I rant
about, but, yes, I've been around for a long time. I joined the TML not 
long after it started, so long ago that I can't remember how long ago it
was ;-) And FYI, I'm 40 years old now and have been playing RPG's since 
1976 and got my first Traveller stuff about a year after it was published.

>As for other long service vets, Mark Cook did some posting in September,
>but jeez it's hard to keep up with this traffic nowadays.  Mark & Mike
>Metlay's Elissa PBEM is sadly mothballed for good.  Looks like we'll never
>escape from the 'Wire', and the disappeared ringworld is forever lost :(

Sigh! Yes, that's really too bad. It was a really fun game despite the 
problems.


        Hans Rancke
  University of Copenhagen
       rancke@diku.dk

sadly no longer speaking for

Rigo H. Edmondsen, Chief Inspector, Albe Welfare Service (ret.), Captain,
Albe Armed Services Reserve.  Description:  179 cm tall, straight golden-
brown  hair,  greentinted eyes and dark red-brown skin.  Solomani descent
(ny-skandinavian). Of only average strength and health, but agile, intel-
ligent and erudite. Skilled administrator, competent with communications,
driving and repairing gravity vehicle, and security work.  Fair marksman.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:49:38 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S IS TOO COMPLEX FOR MERE MORTAL GAMERS

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> The original game, what we now call CT, was started in the year 1105.
>  Each real year represented a year of time in the Imperium's
> history, and the JTAS kept up with the events that happened as we went
> along.
> 
> I've got to tell you, it was neat seeing the Fifth Frontier War and
> the Rebellion unfold right before our eyes in real time.
> 
> Kenneth.

Amen! I remember opening up my JTAS, reading the Traveller News Service
announcing first the appearance of a Zhodani battle fleet in the 
Regina system(?), then the declaration of war and feeling a chill of
dread go up my spine. My very *first* thought was "what's going to
happen to my ship?".  I ended up as a Navy auxillary escort and got
into some pretty mean engagements (using High Guard).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:10:29 -0500
From: dstack@alpo.casc.com (Daniel Stack)
Subject: Traveller Newbie Bio

[Lurk Mode Off]
With all the people delurking to give their bio, I figured I'd join
them.  I'm 25 (young for this list it seems) and have been gaming 
since about 1980 (I was pretty young...)  Like most people, I got
my start in D&D.  To be honest, I never got into Classic Traveller --
I could never find the basic rules for it -- lots of supplements,
but never rules.  (I could've ordered it I suppose...)  I eventually
got into AD&D, and later science fiction games -- I've GM-ed fairly
long campaigns of FASA's Star Trek and Doctor Who games, along
with TSR's Star Frontiers and West End's Star Wars.  I still
occasionally GM AD&D and Star Wars games and am trying to get my wife
to try out some games (It worked on my little brother... :-)

My first Traveller purchase was TNE.  To be honest, I found it too
complicated for my taste -- both in mechanics and setting.
I was excited when T4 came out, as it seemed a chance for me to 
get into Traveller from the beginning.  I liked the basic rules --
fairly simple mechanics, very playable in my opinion (after 
downloading the errata...)  I found I could make a character within
half an hour on my first attempt.  Like everyone else, I was 
dissapointed  by Starships (I'm a guy who loves deckplans, and I was 
very unhappy with the plans included).  I've got CSC as well.  

My problem is... "What do I do with all this stuff?!?!"  I'm
anxiously awaiting a setting.  While I like to consider myself
pretty creative, I no longer have the time to develop everything
from the ground up -- I'm married, I have a job which requires long
hours, etc.  I am waiting for the release of M0, which to be
honest, will likely determine if I continue purchasing Traveller 
products.

One question I will throw out for all you oldtimers... Can you
reccomend some (commonly available) CT products which will 
give me some inspiration as to the background of the Third Imperium?
I've seen the Spinward Marches available, along with the Traveller 
Adventure.  If you wish, email me privately and I'll post
summaries to the list.  Reccomendations for websites are also 
welcome -- I've seen a few which have nice histories of the Imperium.
I'm looking for inspiration; something which can serve as a spark for
the creation of a campaign; something(s) to get me in the proper
Traveller frame of mind...

[Lurk Mode On]
- -Dan Stack  dstack@casc.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:31:51 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: IG, t4 Products, JTAS, and My Thoughts

Kelly St.clair wrote:
> Is THAT what the RC's attitude was?  I thought it was more like:
> 
> "We have the moral right to go in and steal the property of, or outright
>   depose, any government we don't like - on the grounds that our
>   supposedly democratic band of techno-despots can put it to better use
>   than the other, less ambitious techno-despots.  We're not satisfied
>   with just one planet, see.  And heck, even if some people say it's
>   not moral, WE have bigger GUNS!  That MAKES it right!"
> 
> "How'd we come up with this policy?  Why, our good friends the Hivers
>   suggested it to us..."
> 
> The RCES are the direct spiritual successors to that oldest RPG cliche,
>   the heavily-armed group of misfits who engage in breaking and entering,
>   looting, armed robbery, mass murder, etc. secure in the knowledge that
>   "it's okay, they're just orcs."

And what do you think the Civil Wars Milieu will bring? (shrug) Sounds
like a typical government to me.

"The only difference between a mass murderer and a government at war
is body count."

I, for one, was amazed that the Controlled were "contained" by the
Imperium and not just nuked into oblivion. A very pleasant surprise.
Maybe that's what allows the Imperium to last until Dulinor cops the
same attitude described above (i.e. the moral right to take the
Iridium throne). Curious how immoral acts arise from moral rights.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:38:13 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Rob Dean

Alan Huscroft said:
> > As for other long service vets, Mark Cook did some posting in September,
> > but jeez it's hard to keep up with this traffic nowadays.  Mark & Mike
> > Metlay's Elissa PBEM is sadly mothballed for good.  Looks like we'll never
> > escape from the 'Wire', and the disappeared ringworld is forever lost :(
> 
> But still fondly remembered.  I'm another dinosaur who's been on the TML
> since 1990 but rarely posts these days.  How many other PBEM folks are
> still lurking around?

I joined "late" in the might Traveller PBEM (I still think of it as the
_only_ one), but it was back before Mike & Mark took it over. I'm still
here, and although I don't post a lot, I maintain a pretty comprehensive
web site. :)

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:37:02 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller/BAB5

Colin Hollands wrote:
<snip>
> in T4 character gen you can
> only become a commando as a post Honours Graduate course to a forces
> academy, preverbial rose fertilizer, why change it from the MT special
> mission  which i think worked and is more realistic, i don't know how it
> works in the americas but if you join the forces over here, you can't go
> streight into special forces (I.E. the SAS) you have to have a parent unit
> which you have been with for a number of years first such as the Para's
> prove your worth thier before applying <snip>

My understanding is that previous service in an active unit is also
required for applicants to U.S. Special Forces such as the Navy SEALs,
etc. and that such applicants go through a rigorous application training
before being accepted.  Any U.S. military lurkers out there who can
confirm?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:07:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: *>FLASH<* Crisis at Planet X Resolved

*>FLASH<* For Immediate Release
Dateline 015-0001
DSS-X  "Planet X"(AX00513-C)

The following is transcripted from general Comm Net Announcement made by 
Commander X...

"Employees, Nobles, and Visitors of Planet X, I wish to state that the 
crisis which has befallen this station has been resolved.  Control of 
Computer Networking and Comm channels have been re-established.  The 
purpritrator has been aprhended and is awaiting execution by spacing.  We 
cannot disclose his identity at this time.  Let it be known to all those who 
would foil the corporatre structure of X-TEK, they will be found and they 
will not be tolerated.  Such is the policy of X-TEK industries corporate and 
Station law."

The Commander has deactivated general quarters, and buisness is proceeding 
and a regular pace once again.  When asked about its effect of the 
development of the prototype Extended Range Scout Project, he said...

"During the Crisis the specifications were sent by Scout/Courier to Sylea. 
 That is all I can say at this time, as the rest is classified.  I could 
tell you, but then I would have to have the Entire TNS group on Planet X 
killed."

The Commander then let out a rather hearty laugh, and invited the TNS to 
drinks of his specialty called "Green".

This concludes this X-TEK Press Release.

>Out of Character<
Thats right folks, the ISP has thier money now and so graciously reconected 
service, IRC'ers I will see you tonight, and right in time for Allen's Game 
to boot!

Oh, I am now re-doing the site, check out the new Shipyard, all ships have 
been transfered to the new forms.

CmdrX

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #849
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 15 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 850



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller Newbie Bio
Dinosaurs
Re: Rob Dean
Re: Das new guy
New TML user
US Army commando recruitment
Re: Traveller memories
Re: Age, History, and Book Design
Vilani Cannibalism
Re: Das new guy
World Tamer's Guide et al.
The RC, the United Sates and the Imperium
Re: Rob Dean 
Re: World Tamer's Guide et al.
Re: Traveller/BAB5
Re: Combat agility & missiles in T4
Re: Traveller/BAB5
Re: US Army commando recruitment

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:34:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller Newbie Bio

Hi.

> From: dstack@alpo.casc.com (Daniel Stack)

> One question I will throw out for all you oldtimers... Can you
> reccomend some (commonly available) CT products which will 
> give me some inspiration as to the background of the Third Imperium?
> I've seen the Spinward Marches available, along with the Traveller 
> Adventure.  If you wish, email me privately and I'll post

Quite frankly, I suggest you start with the adventures. The Traveller
Adventure is VERY excellent, and it includes a subsector for campaigning
in. "Twilight's Peak" is the MOST excellent introduction for a mature
gamer (IMHO), it also includes a fairly interesting subsector. "Kinunir"
is also a good campaign starter. Other possibilities (because they
contain subsector maps and/or offer long-running adventure seeds)
include "Signal GK", "Leviathan", and "Expedition to Zhodane".

"Prison Planet" and "Nomads of the World-Ocean" offer long-running,
if one-dimensional, adventure seeds, and could be quite good if refereed
and played with great care. If the players get bored and want to move
on, tho, the game could really stink if you don't have other options.

If you despise canned adventures too much to buy them, or just want
general background, get the two "Library Data" supplements or  MT's
"Imperial Encyclopedia"; these both contain mostly the same information.
Great stuff! This info is what first gave Trav its reputation for having
a great background. When I saw "Library Data" for the first time, I
immediately trashed my own long running campaign and became a convert to
the GDW universe. No other game offered backgrounds this good at that
time. You'll still need to buy "Spinward Marches" or "Solomani Rim" to
have an astrography to travel through.

Have fun; I envy the wonder that awaits you!

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:53:00 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Dinosaurs

If im going to be a dinosaur, can i be Dino from the Flintstones... Please
can i, oh go on purleeeeeeze.


Colin Hollands	
Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
MIS Europe & Africa Region
Phone:	0171 413 3413
Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:58:10 +0100 (MET)
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Subject: Re: Rob Dean

> But still fondly remembered.  I'm another dinosaur who's been on the TML
> since 1990 but rarely posts these days.  How many other PBEM folks are
> still lurking around?

  I read TML, occationally.
 
- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:43:35 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Das new guy

All right, all right, so post them already!!!

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Rich Ostorero wrote:

> TBSVT@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > Fine Rich I'll stop lurking;)
> 
> About bluidy time . . . . :)
> > 
> > and  have built every thing from a Tech 1 rock To Tl 15 Battle dress for the
> > IBWF Ithklur Battle Dress Wrestling Federation From 30Ton ships boats to
> > 50000 ton Darrien Warships
> 
>  . . . and the Schalli Wheelchair of Death(tm).

	Why do I get a picture of Schalli barreling out of the water in
grav chairs blasting 'Ride of the Valkyries'? ;-)

"Virus don't surf!"

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 97 18:45:52 -0000
From: GUILLET <nguill@mnet.fr>
Subject: New TML user

Hello,

I'm 32, and I play RPGs since 1982.
I discovered first D&D with the  basic rules and then with Advanced =
D&D, but I discovered CT and the sci-fi role playing universe : it =
was great, I loved it even if the CT rules were a bit wargame alike.
I begun refreeing CT, playing AD&D, StarFrontiers (fun!), Call of =
Cthulhu, Bushido...
As soon as the rules were available, I have play MT, my oldest =
players have 8 years play characters and are Commercial Society =
owners (in MT universe, near Regina).
I brought TNE, but I didn't play it, I haven't enough  time to try to =
understand how it works in details, and I feel more free with MT =
rules.
For 3 years I didn't really play (1 time per year), this summer I was =
preparing some Spreadsheets with my PowerMac, but my hardrive crashed =
:-(
But now, I found the TML, it helps me to feel th spirit of RPG. I =
will work again.

Yes, I know I should work my english language too ;-). Forgive me =
please.

Live long and prosper.

Nicolas GUILLET
2, place du 11 novembre
34560 Poussan
FRANCE

T=E9l. : 04 67 78 49 10

E-Mail : nguill@mnet.fr
         nguill@usa.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 97 15:01:01 UT
From: "Arthur Murphy" <MycroftHolmes@msn.com>
Subject: US Army commando recruitment

Colin Hollands wrote:
, i don't know how it works in the americas but if you join the forces over 
here, you can't go streight into special forces (I.E. the SAS) you have to 
have a parent unit which you have been with for a number of years first such 
as the Para's prove your worth thier before applying and then taking a two 
year probation before being accepted into the ranks, and if you happen to be 
an orifficor then you are limited to only three years service anyway before 
being shipped back to your parent unit.
I've been out for several years, but....
In the US Army, Special Forces A school requires applicants to hold a rank of 
Sgt. (E5) before being admitted to the course, plus appropriate 
recommendations from the applicants commanders.  For officers it is a standard 
branch assignment, and they are subject to the normal branch transfer system.  
Ranger school is available to people straight out of basic/AIT, and although 
it is highly competitive assignment to a ranger battalion requires no more 
than being branched Infantry, graduation from Ranger school and a whole lot of 
luck. Any moron can get into airborne school, and many do.

Arthur Murphy
Mycroftholmes@msn.com
"If you can't get out of it, get into it"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:26:45 -0600
From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Subject: Re: Traveller memories

Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> wrote:
> 
> And what is cool about it is that you can have any kind of
> campaign with Traveller. You want a David Drake Hammer's Slammers
> adventure--it's there. You want a Star Wars type, well OK. You want
> Aliens, no problem. You want any number of science fiction
> universes from novels--well, it's got that too.
> 
> You can play the Imperium as written, or it is easily adaptable to
> any type of science fiction that your heart desires. 

Which suggests Traveller's rules are adaptable enough to handle
virtually every background you toss its way, doesn't it?

If that's not earth shaking, what is?

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@NASCRAG.ORG

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 14:51:10 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Age, History, and Book Design

RE: the Age Thread: I guess I might as well chime in. (I'd have posted
earlier, but for the past two days I've been debilitated by a pinched nerve
in my back. Eeeyow.)

I'm a 31 year-old science fiction writer, editor and reviewer with a BA in
Creative Writing from Concordia University in Montreal, the city I now call
home.

I discovered RPGs in '79, when _Time_ ran an article about GenCon. A
Tolkien fanatic, I scrambled immediately to grab a copy of AD&D (a game we
all complained about endlessly, but played anyway. For years its
competitors were just too cumbersome). I was a founding member of the
Forest City Games Club in my home town, London, Ontario. There I was
introduced to the LBBs, and I came to admire the clever simplicity of the
Traveller system. In 1983 I bought the Traveller Book and briefly ran a
campaign influenced heavily by Frank Herbert's _Dune_ books. By 1985,
involved in comics, 'zines, film school, and singing in punk bands, I
dropped out of gaming entirely. Thus I missed out on MT (IMO, a decent
synthesis) and TNE (a grand and ludicrously conceived mistake). A
hard-science freak (though not a gearhead), I suspect I'd have loved 2300AD
- - but unfortunately I've never even seen the rule books.

Like a junky who thought he'd kicked the jones, I've been dragged back into
the Traveller habit by the release of T4. Since the summer I've been
crafting an insanely elaborate non-Imperium milieu, including a new future
history, several original alien species, and ideas borrowed from dozens of
contemporary SF sources (particularly Bruce Sterling's Shaper/Mechanist
stories, David Brin's Uplift books, various Greg Bear books, John Varley's
Eight Worlds, and so on). I'm also integrating lots of recent astronomical
data, such as the current view of the Galaxy's geography.

T4 has required some fine-tuning. It needed an armor table, so I wrote one.
I updated my old personal hit location table. I didn't like T4's task
system (too many dice!), so I came up with a 2D Task System that actually
seems to work okay. And I compiled a short summary of the personal combat
system. I'm now fairly satisfied with things.

The major temptation with T4 is that, unlike during the CT era, I now have
a Mac, and can easily use up my free time crafting professional-looking
game materials - and with a bit of effort I can do stuff that puts IG to
shame. I am very glad to hear that IG is hiring a graphic designer for
future books. Everything produced thus far is just barely acceptable
(except for those inexplicably horrid deckplans in _Starships_, and the
illos in AA are pretty bad). These books are examples of DTP hubris: owning
Quark XPress does not make one a good book designer. The books are cleanly
laid out, at least, though dull-looking and poorly organized.

BTW: Someone suggested using Times instead of Helvetica for the body text.
That would be a slight improvement, but really both typefaces are just dead
boring. There are now many attractive and readable sans-serif fonts that
are designed for body text  - check out Syntax or Imago, for instance -,
and they're great for headings, too.

<Sigh>. I could rant for pages about what the bad layout and design
decisions in the T4 books, but I won't waste any more bandwidth. I just
hope Marc Miller and Co. find someone with a good eye for design, and a
knowledge of the state of the art. Fingers crossed.

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."
                  -- Trevor Goodchild

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 14:52:51 -0500 (EST)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Vilani Cannibalism

Q:  "How do Vilani taste?"

A:  "Biland."

(Sorry.  Obscure Vilani linguistic pun; had to get it out of my system.
 As it were.)

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:53:08 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Das new guy

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
> >
> >  . . . and the Schalli Wheelchair of Death(tm).
> 
>         Why do I get a picture of Schalli barreling out of the water in
> grav chairs blasting 'Ride of the Valkyries'? ;-)

 . . . Wagner sung as only a Schalli can sing . . .

- -- 
- --Rich Ostorero		http://home.inreach.com/lordbasl/index.html
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Aug 56 13:20:51 -0000
From: Jason Doell <jdoell@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: World Tamer's Guide et al.

I am very new to this list and last played traveller when High Guard was 
all the rage. I missed out on the entire MT debate. 4 months ago I bought 
almost the entire line of TNE (CDN$120) and was very impressed not 
realizing that there was an entire line of traveller just published. This 
whole debate though occuring here has left me tired. I really enjoyed 
FF&S and was looking eagerly to new books about the Regency. I found FF&S 
to be a fountain of info but I do agree that it should be kept in a 
seperate book. I have a 
I am having a very hard time understanding the whole debate though, as we 
should be happy that there is still an evolving hobby to complain about. 
Life can be very good if only we have something to look forward to on the 
horizon. 

The one book in TNE that I have not been able to find was the World 
Tamers Handbook. What kind of info did the WTH contain?? Was it a book 
about designing worlds as FF&S was about designing equipment?? And does 
anyone know where I can find a copy, as I have tried all of western 
Canada to find it with out success. I am thinking of buying Gillett's 
book World Builders Handbook but thought I would hold off if the WTH is 
similar and set in the traveller style.  (or perhaps there is a new book 
coming out that will fill my need)??

BTW, does the FAQ explain the whole evolving process from CT to T4?? I am 
still a bit lost when reading this list. (ie will NAH/FF&S2 replace the 
whole starship building process or what plans is there for replacing T4 
with a revised edition??)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jason Doell - Univ. of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon Canada, 
<jdoell@eagle.wbm.ca>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob's your uncle...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:27:28 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: The RC, the United Sates and the Imperium

>I happen to love the RC's attitude: the one that says "Never Again" to the excesses of the Imperium.
> 
> --Rich

Despite my general loathing of the trashing of a 20 year old intricate
backgroun(15 at the time,) I must admit the RC was a logical conclusion
of the Rebellion.  My big peeve was that it was so "American."

When my brother and I first started playing Traveller in 1982 or so, it
really bothered us that the Imperium was not a democracy and therefore
not "good."  I found that I liked it anyway, (and have since found that
democracy does not equal good either.)  To paraphrase Robert Heinlein,
the best reason for the Imperium's existence was because it worked.  For
over 1000 years.  It was in some ways an alien concept, and very
provocative.

The RC, on the other hand, was America's in your face attitude.  "We
will do what we want no matter what is in our way."  Very realistic for
the post Virus era-a tough time.  But it was not a bit alien like CT, or
even MT.  It was a bunch of tough guys on a mission with nicknames like
"Slider" or "Guns" -just like Shadowrun(which I like.)  But it wasn't
what I loved in Traveller.  

Did I like Lon Maggart?  Sure!  But I liked Strephon more....

Of course, that is my personal opinion-TNE isn't my setting, but it does
have a lot to offer.  That is why it should be encouraged along with all
Traveller-and supported.  The unique possibilities of the Imperial
future can draw bunches of folks to the game who might not be interested
in my setting.  

To put it succinctly, any player or Ref who wants to play or run is
welcome here no matter what they play-we'll discuss the fine points over
a good game, whenever it may be!

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 97 08:42:35 +1000
From: Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Rob Dean 

hi,

I'm still here.  I joined up in mid 89 (I think).  I still post the odd 
message.


I might as well include a minute biography: I'm 29 (30 mid Feb), married with 
a half year old daughter.  First played Traveller in 79 (might have been late 
78) Started playing it regularily in 81. 




Pauli
- --
Dr Paul Dale                    | Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au
c/o Computer Centre             | phone: +61 77 814 551  fax: +61 77 815 230
James Cook University           | http://www.jcu.edu.au/~ccptd/
Townsville                      |
Queensland  4811                | Did you know that there are 42 two letter
Australia                       |     words containing the letter 'a'?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:25:11 -0800
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: World Tamer's Guide et al.

Jason Doell wrote:
> The one book in TNE that I have not been able to find was the World
> Tamers Handbook. What kind of info did the WTH contain?? Was it a book
> about designing worlds as FF&S was about designing equipment?? And does
> anyone know where I can find a copy, as I have tried all of western
> Canada to find it with out success. I am thinking of buying Gillett's
> book World Builders Handbook but thought I would hold off if the WTH is
> similar and set in the traveller style.  (or perhaps there is a new book
> coming out that will fill my need)??

The World Tamers' Handbook was a book about designing worlds and stellar
systems. It had extensive rules for colonizing worlds -- finding
minerals & local resorces, keeping populations fed, protected, and
supplied etc. Its raison d'etre is to model the bending of a world to
the will of Reformation Coalition colonizers and "uplifters".

The World Builders Handbook is also about designing worlds and stellar
systems, but it concentrates on expanding the UWP to include more
detail, including societal customs, more graduations in Law and Tech
levels (Medical tech, comms tech, weapons tech levels and so forth),
resource availability, local fauna and climate.

Note: Since I'm at work right now, the above descriptions are from
memory, standard disclaimers apply :-)

I'm not aware of a new book coming out to fulfill the world design need,
but I would recommend DGP's World Builders Handbook over the WTH. The
World Tamers Handbook is the epitome of TNE's penchant for micromanaging
every little teensy detail, wheras DGP's WBH is IMHO more thoughtfully
laid out, with neat tables and useful equipment data sheets. It is the
epitome of DGP's thoughtful design and a wealth of background detail
instead of complexity in game mechanics.

Unless you're more interested in modeling the colonization of a world,
of course.

> BTW, does the FAQ explain the whole evolving process from CT to T4?? I am
> still a bit lost when reading this list. (ie will NAH/FF&S2 replace the
> whole starship building process or what plans is there for replacing T4
> with a revised edition??)

< Glenn steps aside and tags Joe Walsh to field that one ;-) >

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========
Technology is an extension of our hands and our feet, not our spirit.
                                    -- Filmmaker Costa-Gavras, 9/6/95

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:43:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller/BAB5

On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, David Smart wrote:

> Colin Hollands wrote:
> <snip>
> > in T4 character gen you can
> > only become a commando as a post Honours Graduate course to a forces
> > academy, preverbial rose fertilizer, why change it from the MT special
> > mission  which i think worked and is more realistic, i don't know how it
> > works in the americas but if you join the forces over here, you can't go
> > streight into special forces (I.E. the SAS) you have to have a parent unit
> > which you have been with for a number of years first such as the Para's
> > prove your worth thier before applying <snip>
>
> My understanding is that previous service in an active unit is also
> required for applicants to U.S. Special Forces such as the Navy SEALs,
> etc. and that such applicants go through a rigorous application training
> before being accepted.  Any U.S. military lurkers out there who can
> confirm?
>

I'm not sure how things may have changed since I left the fleet, but it
used to be that no previous experience was required to join the SEALs.  It
cannot be guaranteed at enlistment, but all enlistees in certain fields
can apply at boot camp.  You can also apply from the fleet.

The trick is first qualifying for the program, then surviving the training
(I've heard numbers as high as 75%, but I know that over 50% wash out),
and finally getting through the probationary period.

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
      Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:08:55 -0500 (EST)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Combat agility & missiles in T4

	I'm not one of the people Jay asked to answer these questions
(Derek Wildstar, Joe Walsh, or Dave Golden), but I'm one of the people on
the beta-list most interested in missiles and agility and I do have my
name in the front of Starships and CSC :-)

Jay said:
> First: Are we going to have a CHOICE between an advanced design/combat
> system (the two drive each other) that treats a missile launcher as
> basically just another weapon -- with complete fire control for
> everything it can launch -- and treating these swarms of missiles as
> individual munitions? 

<lots of ranting about missiles snipped>

	You seem to be asking a whole bunch of questions that run 
together.  I'll try to answer those questions that jumped out at me.  If 
I miss something, could you repeat it? 
	You made one comment about missiles doing miniscule damage.  They 
actually did lots of damage in Brilliant Lances, but the weird way Don 
Perrin chose to handle armor and penetration made them wimpy.  It used to 
be that they did damage in between a turret and a bay PAW but cut through 
armor like butter. (Det-laser missiles that is.)
	On the issue of MFDs, I agree that it would be nice if they were 
more scalable instead of coming in big 4-missile-guiding chunks.  Maybe 
we can do something about that.
	As for tracking missile swarms, the way FF&S handled EAPLAC (the
m-drive used in missiles) was a little weird.  It was described as a solid
fuel thruster but it could be turned off and on.  This is not how solid
fuel thrusters in the Real World work, and it would probably not upset
anybody too much if we made EAPLAC drives have to spend all of their fuel
in one turn.  Since EAPLAC missiles have a max delta-v of 25 g-turns, that
means they'd be a medium range weapon only, which would change T4 combat
somewhat, but it would also mean that they would hit in the same turn they
were launched, so there wouldn't be so much book-keeping.  Gearheads could
still design missiles with lots of little EAPLAC thrusters that they used
one per turn or that were powered by heplar or t-plates and were in
effect itty-bitty ships, but they rest of you wouldn't have to be bothered
with that. :-)

> (No, do NOT tell me to wait for fire and forget
> munitions in the new FF&S. They'll probably be as expensive as hell, and
> I like building cost-effective ships. Unless THEY are considered the
> universal default...? That might be nice. What kind of missiles were we
> shooting at each other all those years in CT and MT?)
	
	Actually, if we use Greg Porter's rules for robots and autopilots 
it wouldn't add that much to the cost of a missile to make it fire and 
forget.  Of course, first we need to try and figure out how to make his 
computer rules jive with SSDS/QSDS.

> Second -- and heretofore totally unaddressed anywhere I've looked -- To
> Be Agile Or Not To Be Agile in T4? And if so, by what means? Thrust to
> weight? Thrust to displacement? And with what qualifiers?

	We had a long thread on this on the beta-list not too long ago.  
If you want to look it up in the archives you'll find it under "agility" 
and "slewing."  The upshot is that we defined agility as the ability of 
a ship to rotate and change its facing.  We defined it this way so as not 
to confuse it with thrust, and because rapid slewing raises the number of 
the spacecraft's possible future positions exponentially.  Translation:  
high slewing rate makes evasion g's much more effective.
	It was found that the upper limit on slewing speed was actually a 
ship's g-comp, because a few g's applied to a ship's rotation created 
such large centrifical force on the parts of the ship furthest from the 
axis of rotation that anyone there would be squished.  Since the "squish 
factor" goes up the larger the ship is and thus the further from the axis 
of rotation it is possible to be, large ships are less agile than small 
ships.  Since g-comp keeps people from being squished, ships with lower 
g-comp are less agile than ships with higher g-comp.
	How exactly this is going to be translated into a number is not 
known, but it will likely be a fairly straightforward factor depending on 
ship displacement, configuration, and g-comp.
	How agility is going to be used is also not known, but my 
suggestion to the beta-list the other day was that it affect the target 
number for an Evasion roll.
	How we are going to handle Greg Porter's stacking of g-comp units 
is also not known.  He was kind enough to give us a very big out though 
by saying that the effect totally broke down for large volumes (ie 
starships).

> Whatever combat system emerges from the welter of discussion of the
> digest will have to include different levels of complexity (Easy vs.
> Advanced ship combat) without radically affecting the efficiency of each
> ship design. 

	Scalable complexity is precisely the goal Merrick (the chief 
combat system guy) has set out as one of his most important.  The detail 
he has now is about on the level of Battle Rider, though expansion to 
Brilliant Lances level and further simplification to High Guard level, is 
forthcoming, (all AFAIK, I haven't heard from Merrick recently).

> Why else are we figuring out in SSDS how HEAVY everything is?

	Mass is important when you are designing massively armored 
dreadnaughts.  For the sake of simplicity, QSDS and SSDS assume that 
all ships are about 10 tonnes/Td.  The old rule in FF&S was that if a 
ship was above 15 tonnes/Td, you had to recalculate the ships performance 
by mass.  A similar system will likely be used in NAH.  
	A compromise might be to have people put their ship in a 5
tonne/Td bracket so that a ship between 7.5 and 12.5 tonnes/Td counted as 
10, while ships between 12.5 and 17.5 counted as 15, etc.
  
> Anybody know? Missile fire control and combat agility in T4 -- what's
> the digs?
> 
	Hope this helps clear things up. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:55:58 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller/BAB5

At 11:51 AM 1/15/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Two things has anybody attempted yet to convert BAB5 to T4, i'd be
>interested in this, a friend of mine is trying to create the NAAN at the
>moment,
>
>Second and this may already have been covered in early TML's, if so i
>apologize i've only been subscribed a week, but in T4 character gen you can
>only become a commando as a post Honours Graduate course to a forces
>academy, preverbial rose fertilizer, why change it from the MT special
>mission  which i think worked and is more realistic, i don't know how it
>works in the americas but if you join the forces over here, you can't go
>streight into special forces (I.E. the SAS)

well, here in the US we have any number of SpecWar units..  The Army has the
Airborne Rangers (elite recon troops), which you can join after finishing
Airborne School.  There are only three battalions of Rangers (about 2000 or
so troops), so competion is fierce.  We also have the Special Forces.  The
SF, or Green Berets are manned by NonCommissioned Officers (Sergeants and
up), who are experts in their own field, and are cross trained in several
other Military specialities.  Green Berets also speak multiple languages,
and their main mission is to win "hearts and minds" and act as
organizing/taining elements for irregular forces behind enenmy lines.

The US Navy has it's SEAL Teams, the decendants of WWII's Frogmen.  SEALs
are tasked with everything from clearing beaches for the Marines to boarding
hostile ships underway to acts of sabotage and terrorism in the enemies rear
area.  SEAL training (BUD/S) has the highest dropout rate in the US
military.. close to 70% of trainees quit the program.

The United States Marine Corps has its Marine Expeditionary Force (Special
Operations Capable).  Rather than being an elite within the Marine elite,
the MEU (SOC) is a standard MEU that has undergone additional training prior
to a deployment.  Tom Clancy has written an excellent book about MEU (SOC)
called Marine!.. check it out.

With the exception of the Green Berets, all these units accept any qualified
servicemember.  The Rangers and SEALs have the option of returning a poorly
performing soldier to his unit of origin.  (The Rangers call this "Leggin'
down the road", since 2 of the 3 Ranger battalions are co-located with
non-Airborne Infantry units, and they tend to absorb rejects.)  Army SpecWar
units are treated as a regular tour of duty, lasting 18-24 months before
being transferred.  The logic being that keeping highly motivated, well
trained soldiers cycling into regular mech Infantry will cause a general
raising of military skills.

Green Berets and SEALs tend to stay put in SpecWar for the remainder of
their careers.

The commando school option for newly minted officers is meant to represent
something like the Ranger School or Special Forces Selection Program.  If
you want to say that your retired Sergeant Major spent his entire career as
a snake-eating Jump Pathfinder, feel free.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   If I die and go to heaven, I will do what all     |
|  San Francicans do... I'll look around, and say to  |
|  St. Peter "it's nice, but it ain't San Francisco"  |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:56:01 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: US Army commando recruitment

At 03:01 PM 1/15/97 UT, you wrote:

>I've been out for several years, but....
>In the US Army, Special Forces A school requires applicants to hold a rank of 
>Sgt. (E5) before being admitted to the course

They will also take E-4s who have collected enough points for promotion, but
haven't made time in grade yet.

>Ranger school is available to people straight out of basic/AIT, and although 
>it is highly competitive assignment to a ranger battalion requires no more 
>than being branched Infantry, graduation from Ranger school and a whole lot of 
>luck.

Slight correction:  Any 11B (Infantry) who has attended Airborne School can
serve in a Ranger Battalion, IF they survive Ranger In-Processing (RIP).
This is 48 hours of pure harassment while they do your backround check.
Ranger School is overrun with 2nd Lieutenants and Rangers from the batts.
It takes a lot of pleading to the First Sergeant to get permission to go and
wait on the bench just in case somebody is late reporting in.

 Any moron can get into airborne school, and many do.

Leg.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   If I die and go to heaven, I will do what all     |
|  San Francicans do... I'll look around, and say to  |
|  St. Peter "it's nice, but it ain't San Francisco"  |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #850
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 16 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 851



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Age of Traveller Players
Re: Melee Weapons
Re: Melee Weapons
Re: Melee weapons
Re: DGP IS DEAD
Jump Drive/space
Re: DGP IS DEAD
Game Store has tons of old Traveller
Re: Combat agility & missiles in T4
JTAS 25.
Re: Aramis Subsector
Munchkin Bashing
JTAS25: Tasks in adventures.
Different milieus
Totally off subject
Re: Scout
Re: Imperial Navy reserves (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:04:16 -0500 (EST)
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Age of Traveller Players

Hi guys,

I've been quiet a lot lately, (new job, sick daughter, visiting parents, and
too many busy signals trying to get into @#$%AOL (can't wait for my cut of
the $20 mil)), but I am 28 and have been playing AOL since I got Starter
Traveller for my 15th birthday.  Just kind of an FYI.


Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, Ignorance."--- Socrates

P.S.  Incidentally, while my folks were visiting, thay brought along a box of
old RPG stuff and to my great surprise I found a copy of AM3:Vargr that I
didn't even remember I had.  Bonus for me!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:02:02 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Melee Weapons

Brad Urwiller wrote:
> 
> Okay let me reiterate.
> Plus when on a starship who wants to chance being blown into space.  So
> for the above reasons I beleive melee weapons should be given more
> status.  I realize ranged weapons are definatly the preferred weapon but
> hey that broadsword can come in handy!

oh, no doubt there will be times that combat will come down to corps a corps, but I still 
stand by the idea that nobody is going to develop high tech melee weapons. Better material, 
yes; greater utility (my broadsword doubles as a bottle opener and a shovel) but if melee 
weapons become powered then they would be just as restricted as firearms (think Geneva 
convention type rules)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:05:02 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Melee Weapons

Rich Ostorero wrote:
> > hey that broadsword can come in handy!
> 
> Just ask a Marine, Brad!

I keep thinking of that Murphy's Rules cartoon where it states that "a modern marine's 
sword drill consists of little more than a salute, but the marines of the far future are trained to 
use their's in combat" and there is a caption "not so clumsy or random as a blaster". The 
picture is a marine with a broken cutlass (broken on enemy's powered armour) while the 
enemy grins evilly and draws his gun

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:06:57 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> It would scare the hell out of me anyway.
> 
> And, even if your figures on the Civil War are correct, why are
> knives still issued to US Marines?  As a tool?

Yes, it would be scary. But so is a LMG!
And yes, it is generally used as a tool. From my time in the forces, I used it as apick, a 
shovel, a log-splitter and a tent spike

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 97 20:37:53 -0600
From: Harley Grantham <harley@wavetech.net>
Subject: Re: DGP IS DEAD

>From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
>
>DGP IS DEAD (or is it?)
>
>I hate to dull your enthusiasm (and to repeat the following which has been
>said on the TML time and time again), but the original DGP - the writers and
>artists who created the Traveller products - are no longer anything to do
>with the DGP that is owned by Roger Sanger. I wholeheartedly agree that it
>would be useful to have direct access to the old DGP material, but T4
>products are allowed to use DGP material anyway provided they don't quote
>verbatim, so most of the 'value' of the DGP material will (I assume)
>eventually make its way back into the T4 marketplace in IG products.

Perhaps the facts, but the color, the prose and yes even the art shows no 
sign
of returning in T4 products.  Nor do t4 products, even the much praised 
CSC seem
to be as good as the stuff DGP turned out in it's hey day.

>Even should DGP be licensed to *re-*print their stuff, don't expect to see
>*new* material from them but DO be thankful that Roger had the foresight to
>grab their archives before they were lost. Roger's DGP now has its own
>'vision' of a RPG product.

And what would that be, exactly?

>This posting is intended to remedy the strange glazing over of the eyes
>(shortly followed by loss of all common sense and then brain death) that
>affects anyone mentioning the name "DGP" on this list. Take one pink pill a
>day and repeat 100 times "It's not the same DGP."

Yes, I've seen that comment before, and by you the last time too.  
Forgive me my
optimism, but I can't help but hope that SOMEBODY other than CORE is 
capable
of writing a Traveller supplement the way DGP use to do it.  Just because 
the
old group is no longer at DGP doesn't mean that Roger couldn't produce a 
good
product.  But without an agreement with IG we'll never know will we?  I 
guess 
I do not understand why you continue to bash him everytime someone raises 
the
spectre of hope.  

I really want to see that CD product.  I'm afraid the powers that be at 
IG aren't
going to let it get printed because it doesn't fit into their master 
plan.  
I fear we will never see the CD full of classic Traveller material Marc 
Miller 
was going to do for the same reason.  And I think only a lot of mail from 
all of
us is going to change their minds.  The only reason I can give you for my 
beliefs
is that no one involved with them is talking about those projects 
anymore.  

But without that massive amount of wonderful material, T4 is just an 
error-riddled
rule book and some overpriced supplements with bad art.  It may be more 
than that
someday, but not today.

I know people keep hoping but my read of the CD announcement on the web 
page is 
that they are looking at doing a CD version of T4.  That's all it really 
says.



Harley Grantham                                       harley@wavetech.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:18:46 -0500 (EST)
From: TBSVT@aol.com
Subject: Jump Drive/space

*************WARNING Bullshittium present in large amounts*************
	

	I have a few things that I want to ask this list O Traveller Wise man
Have to do With J-drives and space. Ok here it goes please correct me If I'm
wrong

1st A high yield Fusion Plant eats up X amount of fuel and sends the power
generated to(yes I forgot how to spell the name of the crystals some thing
like Zucchi zoobakini like that) power sinks.
????  Is all of the fuel used up in that frist use and stored in the sinks as
in
for example a 400 dt ship use 40dt of fuel like *snap* that?????

2nd A pulse is sent from the sinks to the Hull grid that warms it up setting
up
the jump field

3rd The main pulse is sent out of the crystals Spreading open the stuff that
separates the stuff between J-space and normal space
???? J-space is like n-space but shorter so what happen when you start up one
more  jump drive????

4th the ship enters jump for a week or so
???? The effects of J-space on folks(AKA they turn into flipen loons) is well
Bad If a person is in the 
"wall" he is fine but getting to close to it is just as Bad so what is the
effect of two Walls on each other????

You all have got to point ok yes Rich I will find out in your world too
HA HA HA HA HA HA more mad laughing

And sorry but no points are give you forgot to answer in the from of a
Question

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:27:42 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: DGP IS DEAD

The idea that DGP(old) is dead is true.

That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of young bucks eager to go rutting
in the old stomping grounds.  The game is only as good as we make it. 
That translates to hard work by the obviously gifted people on this TML.

Face it-it is damn hard to make a living off of being a game designer. 
The world is for the most part not ready for the kind of hobby we seem
to enyoy-there is work and creative thought involved here.

But we all have areas we are good at.  We can all contibute, whether it
be by cool web pages or excellent writing.  Or just playing.  

The computer makes possible a new low overhead style of design for
games, which can still produce a top-notch product.  But you have to put
the pieces together.  I feel that is what IG and DGP and whoever else is
out there has to do to make this work.

I asked the question about age for a reason-for the folks here to
realize that the young guys are playing other games(a glass of warm
blood, anyone?)  Caveat-this is a mailing list-implying certain
capabilites that most 15 year old don't have.

Just an insight.
Tom

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:43:50 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Game Store has tons of old Traveller

My Not Very Local, But Extremely Friendly Game Store (NVLBEFGS) has at least
two CT boxed sets, and numerous CT supplements, back issues of the Journal, etc.

I also saw a lone copy of MT.. didn't check the release date so I'm not sure
exactly how bug-riddled it is.

Contact:

Gamescape
465 California Ave
Palo Alto, Ca.  94306

(415) 322-GAME
http://www.gamescape.com

The manager is David Cole, and if you mention my name he'll likely run
screaming into the night.. seriously, he's good people.. he pulls product
that he knows I'll buy before I even know they're out.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   If I die and go to heaven, I will do what all     |
|  San Francicans do... I'll look around, and say to  |
|  St. Peter "it's nice, but it ain't San Francisco"  |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:37:41 -0800
From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
Subject: Re: Combat agility & missiles in T4

>=20
> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:08:55 -0500 (EST)
> From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
> Subject: Re: Combat agility & missiles in T4
>=20
>         I'm not one of the people Jay asked to answer these questions
> (Derek Wildstar, Joe Walsh, or Dave Golden), but I'm one of the people =
on
> the beta-list most interested in missiles and agility and I do have my
> name in the front of Starships and CSC :-)

No prob. I'll take whatever help I can get. Publicly casting my bread on
the waters in the digest & Trav mailing list is a good way to do that.

>  On the issue of MFDs, I agree that it would be nice if they were
> more scalable instead of coming in big 4-missile-guiding chunks.  Maybe
> we can do something about that.

Good. I hope you succeed. It's kind of confusing as is.

>         As for tracking missile swarms, the way FF&S handled EAPLAC (th=
e
> m-drive used in missiles) was a little weird.  It was described as a so=
lid
> fuel thruster but it could be turned off and on.  This is not how solid
> fuel thrusters in the Real World work, and it would probably not upset
> anybody too much if we made EAPLAC drives have to spend all of their fu=
el
> in one turn.  Since EAPLAC missiles have a max delta-v of 25 g-turns, t=
hat
> means they'd be a medium range weapon only, which would change T4 comba=
t
> somewhat, but it would also mean that they would hit in the same turn t=
hey
> were launched, so there wouldn't be so much book-keeping. =20

Sounds workable.

>Gearheads could
> still design missiles with lots of little EAPLAC thrusters that they us=
ed
> one per turn or that were powered by heplar or t-plates and were in
> effect itty-bitty ships,

That's one of the concepts I've been nursing along for some time now:
the cruise missile. Basically it's just a kamikaze small craft with a
robot pilot and a big whopping warhead, which was a kind of radical
concept in the old rules; but from what I dimly understand of FF&S and
all the gearhead jargon about G-ratings and so on, it seems like that's
all missiles ARE.

So another question rears up: how does one build a whopping big missile
that will be compatible with T4? I know there are lots of missile
designs floating around out there, but I plain don't understand how to
translate G-ratings and fuel-hours and things like that into T4 stats
(ranges, chances to hit or get shot down, etc.), although I can figure
the damage using the USP chart in the back of Starships=85.

>but they rest of you wouldn't have to be bothered
> with that. :-)

Also good.

>The upshot is that we defined agility as the ability of
> a ship to rotate and change its facing.  We defined it this way so as n=
ot
> to confuse it with thrust, and because rapid slewing raises the number =
of
> the spacecraft's possible future positions exponentially.  Translation:
> high slewing rate makes evasion g's much more effective.
>         It was found that the upper limit on slewing speed was actually=
 a
> ship's g-comp, because a few g's applied to a ship's rotation created
> such large centrifical force on the parts of the ship furthest from the
> axis of rotation that anyone there would be squished.  Since the "squis=
h
> factor" goes up the larger the ship is and thus the further from the ax=
is
> of rotation it is possible to be, large ships are less agile than small
> ships.  Since g-comp keeps people from being squished, ships with lower
> g-comp are less agile than ships with higher g-comp.
>         How exactly this is going to be translated into a number is not
> known, but it will likely be a fairly straightforward factor depending =
on
> ship displacement, configuration, and g-comp.

Ahhhh=85 okay=85 so if I understand you correctly, you will not have to d=
o
anything special to build high-agility ships since G-comp seems to be
purely a function of tech level. Is that right? You just figure out how
agile it is using a single formula depending on how big and high-tech it
is, and what general shape the hull is, i.e. its distribution of mass?=20

That's fine. That's more than fine. What a relief.

>         How agility is going to be used is also not known, but my
> suggestion to the beta-list the other day was that it affect the target
> number for an Evasion roll.

Whatever works. Not an issue.

>         How we are going to handle Greg Porter's stacking of g-comp uni=
ts
> is also not known. =20

STACKING of comp units? See above. I'm confused again. Do I have to wait
for an up-and-coming book to design proper warships that aren't crippled
pigs, or don't I?

>He was kind enough to give us a very big out though
> by saying that the effect totally broke down for large volumes (ie
> starships).

If the whole idea gets trashed, it won't be the first time that a choice
bit of bullshittium =96 logical and 'realistic' on its own -- gets
sacrificed on the altar of playability: witness the concept of surface
area for power plants. If we can do that sort of thing to preserve the
Traveller-esque spacegoing dreadnaught, then perhaps we can do it for
other, equally valid reasons=85. like, uh, like you know, like making sur=
e
the game is simple enough that average-smart teenagers will like, um,
buy it.  ;)

> > Why else are we figuring out in SSDS how HEAVY everything is?
>=20
>         Mass is important when you are designing massively armored
> dreadnaughts.  For the sake of simplicity, QSDS and SSDS assume that
> all ships are about 10 tonnes/Td. =20

Then why are we put to the trouble of figuring out the weight per.
individual component? I like to do things by the book and do them
correctly, but it's really a pain in the ass. (So is figuring the crew
requirements in SSDS. Adding up legions of dinky fractions so we can
multiply the 'raw numbers' by this and divide it by that for each crew
type=85 ugh=85.) Can I, without violating anything too badly, just go wit=
h
the 10 tons weight per. 1 ton displ. rule?

>The old rule in FF&S was that if a
> ship was above 15 tonnes/Td, you had to recalculate the ships performan=
ce
> by mass.  A similar system will likely be used in NAH.

Performance? In thrust or agility? If we're still talking about agility,
doesn't that mean that you go back to the evil days of having to
constantly juggle the power plant's own weight versus the thrust of=85 ah=
,
I'm not gonna go into it again. Too many nightmares.

>         A compromise might be to have people put their ship in a 5
> tonne/Td bracket so that a ship between 7.5 and 12.5 tonnes/Td counted =
as
> 10, while ships between 12.5 and 17.5 counted as 15, etc.

I have an alternate suggestion: how about generic default weights
figured by tons displacement, modified by armor value and tech level?
Preferably all arranged on a short little table where you can just look
it up and figure it out in ONE EASY STEP; okay, my ship displaces this
much and has this much armor and is made out of this kind of
bullshittium; so it weighs THIS much per. displacement ton.

But what about when you jettison drop tanks? Or launch subordinate
craft? Or take on a bunch of cargo (oh, gee, how HEAVY is it? If I'm in
a Custom Trader that's half cargo hold, do I figure my agility
differently when a Vargr corsair jumps me if I'm carrying a bunch of
nuclear waste instead of Styrofoam chips?) Or use up a bunch of jump
fuel? If you're going to be that detailed with regard to how much the
bloody ship weighs, and worry about centers of gravity and squish
factors and things like that, you have to take all those issues into
account. As you can see from the above examples, the weight of Traveller
starships fluctuate wildly in the course of normal game play, and not
just by a little.

Better to shitcan the whole thing and go back to an agiliy sytem that
revolves around displacement, IMO. It's easily explained and takes all
of the above into account without being anal-retentive. If you want
smaller ships to be more agile than bigger ships, then explain in a
sidebar the physics of it, just like you did so patiently and so well
with me, and have the ramifications of the physics in terms of game
mechanics be that big ships ARE simply less agile than little ones. You
can even use the existing USP values for Hull Size, then modify them by
configuration and, if you insist, armor value to determine agility. That
way heavily armored ships aren't as maneuverable, regardless of how fast
or what size they are. For Pete's sake, why not? Detail Without
Complexity, as per. the Monster Post.=20

Whatever mechanism you ultimately come up with, if you only have to
figure things out once, I can live with it. But I will NOT go back to
any kind of scheme for figuring agility where you have to constantly
juggle everything like they had in MegaTraveller. No Frigging Way. Never
Again. I know I'm not alone in that.

>         Hope this helps clear things up.

Indeed =96 histrionics to the contrary. Thanks many times over. Would bea=
m
a Redtail Ale to you if the technology existed yet. Hope the fact that
most of the answers I ask for spawn more lengthy questions doesn't set
your teeth on edge. Party on.

- -- Jay Stranahan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:29:33 +0000 (GMT)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: JTAS 25.

I've just finished absorbing the copy of JTAS 25 that I got through the 
post on Monday, and it wasn't as bad as I was expecting it to be. Here's a 
brief review of the articles:

Vestiges by David W. Baker. - Not a bad adventure at all. Basically just 
a bug hunt, but all the info, maps, and clues are well presented. The 
only problem I have is with the layout: a near half page is used at the end 
of the adventure text to display a symbol that featured in the adventure.

Warden of the Everlasting Flame by Peter Schweighofer. - Nice fiction - 
but it seems far too soft for Traveller's Hard SF setting.

Bits of Biotechnology by Aaron Link - Some nice gadgets to throw into an 
adventure to give it that 'far future' feel.

Excerpts from Aliens Archive: The Asym. - I think this article should 
have been a page or so longer, giving more information on the Asym 
homeworld, it's history, and their technology.

The Silver Moon Incident by Lew Wright. - Not a bad adventure, but it has 
quite a few flaws. The adventure implies that there is an FTL radio 
system in Traveller. There is also a pretty silly set-up that forces the 
adventurers into a run-in with the Navy.

Imperium Games ads for Citizens of the Imperium and JTAS. Putting ads in 
a magazine and telling people to "Go ahead cut these out... Buy MORE 
books!" will not impress most people.

Free Trader Beowulf by Don Perrin. - Hmmmmm. More fiction, and another 
implication that there is an FTL radio in Traveller. The Navy ship in 
the story keeps sending off messages to Fleet Ops informing them of thier
actions on Border patrol, and a Space installation on the border communicates
by tight light beam to Sylea.

One Hundred Cargoes by Jo Grant. - Uselful for a trading game, a pitty 
it's lifted fully from 101 Cargos.

Writer's and Artist's Guidelines. - Could have fitted on one page easily.

Artwork. - I liked the interior art lots - Robert Daniels' work was very 
Travelleresque. The cover art was pretty good too, but the styling of the 
cover and the magazine in general was poor. I felt that a lot more could 
have been squeezed into the mag, but it wasn't bad as a start. I'd lose 
the fiction though and put in more adventures.

Scores out of 5:	Vestiges  	4.
		   	Warden 	        3.
		 	Biotech       4.5.
			Asym     	4.
			Silver Moon	4.
			Beowulf	        2.
			Cargos	      4.5.
			Art: Ashe	4.
			Art: Daniels    5.
			Art: Foss	5.
			Layout    	2.

To summarize, JTAS 25 is a step in the right direction, but Layout and 
Content need to be expanded upon. From the clashes with Traveller canon 
I'd say a few of us on the TML would need to start writing for JTAS 26. 

One good thing though. I got my copy in Belfast on the morning of the 
13th, it having been posted on the 8th - not even a week in Jumpspace - 
impressive.

	Eamon.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:03:23 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Aramis Subsector

I previously mentioned an article on Aramanxs in challenge, the issue is #61.


/Backman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:58:42 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Munchkin Bashing

Imagine the Scene,


There you are sitting around the camp fire, slowly toasting your
munchkin, so that he/she is crisp on the outside but still soft and gooey
in the middle, and just right for dipping in your Cocoa,


But seriously folks, i like gaming with the little people, as it gives me
a chance to stick them on what i believe is the correct path, i.e. to be
ROLE players not rules lawyers, there is nothing worse than having a
gaming group where four out of five of your players are really role
playing and don't care about the rules (so long as the DM is consistent)
and then you have the DM's nightmare of a rules lawyer who quibbles about
every point, (My usual solution to that problem, (at least in D&D) is to
give them an incredibly powerful but specific weapon, it keeps them
happy, but they never get to use it. "Yes you can use your Plus 25 dragon
slayer, however do read the small print, it does say only good against
Bronze dragons, and the one sharpening his claws in front of you is
Red....") my point is rule lawyers in my opinion spoil what would
otherwise be an enjoyable gaming group and i like to steer Munchkin's
into good role playing.


On a Second point, i've received several E-mails asking about BITS, well
i'm only a member Andy Lilly who also posts to this TML is the BITS
co-ordinator, and can be reached at the following E-Mail address,
<italic>A.S.LILLY@NORTEL.CO.UK</italic> (Andy Lilly) for any further
Info. i will also answer the e-mails individually as well.




Colin Hollands	

Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems

MIS Europe & Africa Region

Phone:	0171 413 3413

Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:23:47 +1100
From: Roger Howe <rghowe@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: JTAS25: Tasks in adventures.

I may be missing something as the Traveller campaign
I will be running doesn't start till Saturday, but
does the task system used in the JTAS25 adventures match
the one provided in the main rule book?

For example, page 5 right hand column, line 18-19 of JTAS25:

"Bypassing the lock is difficult (throw 10+; DM + mechanical skill)"

Chapter 4 of main rulebook:

Task attempts involve four separate elements:
	- a target number - skill + attribute
	- a dice code - difficulty = number of dice to roll
	- DMs
	- result - usually obvious for most skills.

Above task should therefore look something like:

	Mechanical+Dex, Difficult

according to the main rulebook.

Please give any possible assistance, time is running short.


Roger Howe
Canberra, Australia.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:56:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Different milieus

In mail you write:

>  This kind of detail can
>> add alot of atmosphere which is one of the reasons why I was so glad
>> to pick up CSC; I'm using it as background info for an 1100s campaign.
>
> Same here.  I like the 1100's.  If you are going to play Traveller, 
> you might as well start with the good stuff.
>
> BTW, I never liked the TNE setting, and when they first announced M0, 
> I was resistance.  But I gotta admit, I'm starting to like the idea 
> of M0.  I see some really fun adventure possibilities.  

Well, I have this picture of a group in M200 or later finding some ship
that's been drifting for centuries, and have it turn out to be the ship
that the M0 players lost to a misjump, or life support failure or the
like. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:48:39 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Totally off subject

Sorry about this message being on this mail list, but i didn't know where
else to stick it and there do seem to be a fair amount of Computer people
out there, i've just recieved some junk mail telling me that there computer
supports RAID levels 0,1,3,5 and 10, does anybody know what the hell level
10 is or where i can find out, the others i know but level 10 is a new one
to me. again appologies to everyone else about the non traveller stuff any
replies please E-mail me direct not via this list. TTFN


Colin Hollands	
Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
MIS Europe & Africa Region
Phone:	0171 413 3413
Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:24:11 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Scout

Antti Lahtinen writes:
> 	Here is re-designed versions of Scout/Courier and Free-Trader.
> 	The USP data is based on a fully optimized FFS design, and the
> 	ships should be more capable of performing their tasks than
> 	those shown in T4 rulebook.
> 
> 	Note that according to the description of Scout/Courier, the
> 	ship should have "high sensor capabilities", while the T4
> 	version had only mediocre sensors.

I don't know the FF&F system well enough to say for sure, but won't there
be a problem with the size of the antenna array? Isn't that why the high
sensor capabilities aren't available in QSDS for ships with 100 T hulls 
like the Scout?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:53:28 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves (long)

Firstly, my apologies on the tardiness of this reply,
I've been away. also if I've missed anything covered
in latter posts, also my apologies.

At 22:59 9/01/1997 +0100, you wrote:
>Andrew Vallance writes:
>>Yes the leader is taking a huge gamble on lots of factors, but that is the 
>>whole point. For the Vargr to have effective large interstellar states 
>>(which they do) this problem can not be insurmountable.

>But that's just it. The Vargr _don't_ have large effective interstellar
>states. The best they can do is largish, semi-permanent, INeffective 
>interstellar states. The Vargr concept of government just isn't the same
>as the human concept. Large groups within national borders are autonomous
>of, or even hostile to, the nation so tax collection must be a nightmare.

I'll admit, I can't fathom how it would be done either, but
then again, I'm not a Vargr :*) (well at least not the last
time I looked). But the Vargr do seem to be able to manage
at least subsector plus sized govts which can last
generations (vis: the Thoengling Empire, described as
a "Large centralised state in the Vargr Extents... existed in
it current form since 792).

>>Actually importing 1kg of food per person per day requires a little
>>under 71,500 Td of cargo space (14,000 Kg per Td) per billion.

>Argh! >>SLAP!<< Yes, you're right. My mistake.

Still a very high cost, like I said, it all depends on the cost of
setting an agricultural biosphere from scratch to support
all those billions.

>>Tainted thin atmoshpere with only 25% to 35% water, sounds at
>>least a little unfriendly :*) and TL 10 is low compaired with TL 13 :*).

>Unfriendly, yes, but the air is breathable and the water is there. And TL 10
>is quite enough to sustain artificial environments.

But not to resist a TL 13 Vargr :*).

>>assuming the ships Khukish has are jump capable, 

>No, these are the Imperial Navy reserves stord at Kukhish. The Kukhish
>planetary defense reserves hasen't even been touched upon in that example.

Surly the Imperial ships would mostly be at Depot?

>>assuming no ships came along and wanted to be repaired or have their annual 
>>maintaince done :*).

>By _TCS_ rules repairs do take up construction space, but maintenance only
>costs money; it dosen't take up space (In reality, of course, it would take
>up space, but that space would be over and above the 1 T per 1000 citizens
>figure). 

Never have liked that rule, a tad unrealistic, but a good point.


>>I've looked around for a better example:

>>The RN in 1791. [...]
>>This gives 176 ships active as against 101 reserve. The reserves are 
>>60%-70% of the actives. This percentage stays constant for the RN through 
>>out the period (1594 to 1845). I chose the RN because its situation was 
>>similiar to that of the 3rd Imperium.

>How was their situation similar?

Large 'maritime' empire, capable of overwhelming any
individual threat, totally dependent on naval LOC's for
its survival. True the analogy is far from perfect, but its
fairly good.

>>(FFW 1008 days = 2.8 years) No you've missed the point, not
>>to reactivate a huge fleet, to build a huge fleet. 

>No I didn't. I was saying that if the Imperial Navy traditionally has a huge
>reserve fleet laid up in ordinary then the 5FW was too short to get through
>it and no new construction would appear. However, if it only had a few ships
>in ordinary then it would have, at least, 1 to 2 years worth of shipbuilding
>more than that in 1117.

Using the two World Wars and the Revolutionary and Napoelonic
Wars as examples. The major building programs took at least
a year to actually start. The US 2nd WW program is misleading
because the US navy had actually entered the war almost a full
year before the rest of the nation, and even that did not get into
full swing until mid 42. Any wartime building program is a major
administrative task which takes some time to organise, even
more so when you don't have instantinious communications.

>>>What you say makes sense, but any way you look at it the figures are odd. I
>>>don't insist on an 800% reserve, but you get some undesirable effects in 
>>>other parts of our assumptions if we assume only 50%.

>>As far as I can see the only effect is that because there aren't a huge 
>>surplus of ships laying around in reserve states at war will tend to spend 
>>much of their now increase military budgets on building new ships. 

>No, the major effect is that in that case the Imperium isn't using almost
>half it's budget on maintaining ships in ordinary, which means that it is,
>apparently, spending a lot less than _TCS_ and _Striker_ indicates. Even
>_with_ that assumption the Imperium is apparently only spending CrImp36 per
>citizen on its navy. Assuming that the Imperium uses 60% of its revenue on
>the Navy, that means the Imperium gets CrImp60 per citizen. The average
>citizen is TL 12, which means his homeworld's credits are worth approximately
>0.6 CrImp, which means that he is paying 100 Cr to the Imperium. This
>represent 30% of his total military spending, which means that he spends
>Cr333.3 on his military. Since he makes Cr16.000 per year, military spending
>is very close to 2%. (This figure is too high, actually, because there is a
>correlation between high-population worlds and world TL, so the above-
>average citizen pays disproportionately more, but let that slide for the
>moment). With, say, 50% of the active navy in ordinary, the average
>expenditure drops to CrImp21 per citizen, which means the military spending
>is only 1,17%.

Now I see the point your making, my apologies. Yes there is
something seriously wrong here. I actually suspect it's that
TCS and Striker give way to high GNP (in my campaigns I
slash them to 20%). Perhaps the missing figure is crew
costs. I know that TCS says they are factored in, but if they
weren't it would go a long way to rectifiing it.


>>Which is what happens historically. 

>That is what happened historically to surface ships on one world. Not what
>"happened" historically to spaceships in three Imperiums

True, but it is still the best we've got to go on :*)


>Btw. I can give you one historical example of building ships that were never
>used. Before the Napoleonic Wars Denmark had developed a tradition for
>having a huge fleet (Some 40 SoLs, I think), much more than they could 
>afford to man. The idea was that it would act as a deterrent. We only
>needed a few months to field (if that's the word when ships are involved)
>a very strong fleet (at least on paper; apparently noone worried about
>the quality of the crews. Go figure). Unfortunately we also laid up most
>of the ships we did man each winter, so the sneaky English attacked in
>spring before we could rig out the fleet.

Interesting example. The Danes actually did have it right
according to the theories of the day (if you look at the
tables I gave for the RN you'll see a similiar pattern, if
you allow for the Danes lack of overseas possestions).
Those ships were then safely stored behind the rather
'formidable' (by all orthodox standards) defences of
Copenhagen. What the Danes didn't count on was
that one: the British would attack a neutral without
any warning when the defences weren't fully manned;
and two: that Nelson wouldn't play by the rules and use
highly unorhodox tactics. When the RN came back and
tried it again in 1807, it took them rather longer and
they only succeeded because they Danes came out
and fought (with their hastily gathered crews).
Incidentally as a note before Dec 7 1941 the
universal term for a suprise attack on an
unsuspecting neutral navy was to "Copenhagen"
them :*)

>Nevertheless, I agree that an 800% reserve fleet is unlikely. OTOH, so is
>a low military expenditure.

True something is very wrong here.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

This is air traffic contol
All our operators are busy at the moment
So please land your plane after the tone
Beeeeeeeeepp.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #851
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 16 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 852



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Navy reserves
Re: JumpDrives/Space
RAID 10
The "We Love DGP" Fan Club is announced!
The Raid 10 question
JTAS 25 and BITS Supplement 101 Cargos
Re: The "We Love DGP" Fan Club is announced!
TO ALL TRAVELLER COLLECTORS, ETC.
Re: Imperial Navy reserves
Re: US Army commando recruitment
Re: DGP IS DEAD
Re: Space Opera (ATTN: Phil McGregor)
RE: US Army commando recruitment
Re: Age of Traveller Players
Science of Fusion Power Plants (long, gearhead oriented)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 04:55:16 -0800
From: bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

>Mothballed:  The ship has been completely shut down, pumped full of inert
>	     gas, bagged, and stuck inside a convenient asteroid.

 Hmm, a question .. why instead of pumping it full of a gas(which would
have to be pumped out, also) instead of just leaving it a vacume?
bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:02:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: JumpDrives/Space

from TLM Digest #851
TBSVT@aol.com wrought...

>*************WARNING Bullshittium present in large amounts*************


>        I have a few things that I want to ask this list O Traveller Wise 
man
>Have to do With J-drives and space. Ok here it goes please correct me If 
I'm
>wrong

>1st A high yield Fusion Plant eats up X amount of fuel and sends the power
>generated to(yes I forgot how to spell the name of the crystals some thing
>like Zucchi zoobakini like that) power sinks.
>????  Is all of the fuel used up in that frist use and stored in the sinks 
as
>in
>for example a 400 dt ship use 40dt of fuel like *snap* that?????

If you go by DGP's Starship Operator's Handook for MT, yep


>2nd A pulse is sent from the sinks to the Hull grid that warms it up 
setting
>up
>the jump field

>3rd The main pulse is sent out of the crystals Spreading open the stuff 
that
>separates the stuff between J-space and normal space
>???? J-space is like n-space but shorter so what happen when you start up 
one
>more  jump drive????

So far so good, the jump drive effect looks kinda (I like to use imagery 
from popular movies, esp. for newbies.) when Doc Brown's Delorian smashes 
through the space time continuum.  Re-entry is the same effect.

Now when you operate another field within a current field, wierd things can 
happen.  This is the realm of GM's whim, as there is nothing that I know of 
currently published that deals with shuch a "Bonehead Manuever".  What 
happens to a person caught in a J-field?  again, lotsa weird things.  I 
remember an old Challange "Horror" edition adventure where the pc's get a 
haunted ship.  Basicaly someone got caught in a J-field some 80 years ago, 
and everytime thing goes into jump,  the "ghost" would appear.  They called 
it a HPPE or "Hippie":  Hyperspacial Paranormal Psionic Entity.  Basicaly 
your psioinc signature (aka soul) gets trapped between dimentions.  Hows 
that for an X-Files in the 57th (or 45th) century?

Here's my rule of thumb for funky things GM's can do with multi-drives, 
misjumps, etc...

1. You have nothing set up, and you don't want to fatutz with it, so, as 
Cmdr. Ivanova says, >*BOOM*<

2. Standard Misjump 1d6 for direction hex on map, 6d6 parsecs out.  2d6 days 
duration.

3. Major rift in space-time.  GM decides which sector, or even QUADRANT you 
end up in. Aka wormhole.

4. Temporal Displacement. Time travel forward or back, GM's whim

5. Traped in a alternate dimention, laws of physics slightly off kilter(i.e. 
magic exists). Or a alternate history (ala "Sliders") universe.

6. Temporal and Spacial Displacement.  Arive back at the big bang, encounter 
the 4th Imperium, witness the assaination of "Strephon", again....

These are merely suggestions, I dont think a single one is cannon anywhere, 
but when you gotta wing it...

Commander X
CEO X-TEK  Count of Planet X
and Part time Pira...er....Privateer






 ------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:15:54 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: RAID 10

Thanks again to Karl Scriba, for the answer to my question, very simple
really its raid 0 - Striping combined with raid 1 - mirroring hence 1 + 0 =
10, id like these guys to be my payroll people purleeze i like their maths.


Colin Hollands	
Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
MIS Europe & Africa Region
Phone:	0171 413 3413
Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:18:40 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: The "We Love DGP" Fan Club is announced!

Harley Grantham <harley@wavetech.net> replies to my posting about "DGP IS
DEAD (or is it)"...

>Perhaps the facts, but the color, the prose and yes even the art shows no 
>sign of returning in T4 products.

The T4 team are going through a learning process. CORE is trying to help in
its own (small) way.

>>Roger's DGP now has its own 'vision' of a RPG product.
>And what would that be, exactly?

A couple of years ago I was involved in designing the task system, skill
tables and combat rules for Macrocosm (with Beejay Johnson and others). This
was to be a generic RPG system with several product lines. One of these
lines was to be AI, the game that DGP was *going* to publish before it went
belly-up. There was also a far future starships type one, alternative Earth
histories, etc.

Unfortunately, pressures of work and Traveller commitments meant I left the
design team several years (IIRC) back. Since then, to my knowledge, Roger's
new DGP has been developing some of this stuff, but I have no idea what
stage it is now at. I can only suggest that you contact Roger (assuming he's
still at: rodge@cyberspace.com) to ask what's going on.

>Yes, I've seen that comment before, and by you the last time too.  
>Forgive me my
>optimism, but I can't help but hope that SOMEBODY other than CORE is 
>capable
>of writing a Traveller supplement the way DGP use to do it.

As Tom Lane seems to have figured out, the problem that I'm trying to point
out is that too many people are *hoping* that things like this will happen
when they're not going to. If anyone wants to make a difference to Traveller
then it's going to be up to *them* to do it. I didn't sit down at my
terminal 2-3 years ago and wait, hoping that someone would create a UK-based
internet group dedicated to Traveller, which would allow me to buy
second-hand stuff without the bother of buying from the US, which would run
Traveller events at RPG conventions to promote it and bring in new players;
which would send out (moderately) regular newsletters to e-mail and postal
members alike to keep them in touch with other players (to tell them what's
happening at IG, to give them product reviews, etc.), etc., etc.

I'd probably still be sitting waiting if I hadn't done it myself.

Now I'd be willing to bet that I have a lot less free time than many people
on this list. Just FYI:

* I'm a project manager for Nortel Technology, the research arm of Nortel, a
major international telecommunications supplier (Norstar, Meridian,
Companion, etc.)

* I'm currently undertaking a PhD in radar (related to one of the two
projects I'm working on).

* I have a wife - no kids yet and thankfully she plays RPGs, but I still
have to make time for *us*.

* On average I play in RPGs 2 evenings a week.

* I created BITS, which is now approaching 200 members in the UK and
provides a lifeline to many people who thought Traveller was dying out.

* I created CORE, which publishes 3 licensed printed products for the new
Traveller (all of which seem to be the least-criticised products out so far
- - ok, they've had a small readership and I really *am* open to *any*
criticism anyone would care to send me), plus software, plus writing the
Milieu 0 book, plus currently in the proposal stage of submitting new
products to IG...

* etc. (teaching karate lessons, watching Babylon 5, trying to play the
piano occasionally...)

Needless to say, BITS and CORE have required a SUBSTANTIAL investment of my
personal time and money. TLWH might be a much revered product but it will
never pay for the time David Burden and I spent working on it.

>...doesn't mean that Roger couldn't produce a good
>product.  But without an agreement with IG we'll never know will we?

There are plenty of outlets for proving whether one can write for Traveller
- - there are innumerable web sites on which people put their adventures; JTAS
is open to your submissions - no license needed there, you get public
recognition and payment; Traveller Chronicle still seems to be outputting
stuff (after all, thanks to Kevin Knight that's where I first started
getting my stuff in print); *small* scale fanzines are probably still going
to be permitted by IG (so Phil McGregor's safe for the moment); or you could
always submit a manuscript *concept* direct to IG or to CORE or to Goldrush
Games.

>I do not understand why you continue to bash him everytime someone raises 

I'm not bashing Roger, just saying that the only way to fix the problem is
to write stuff oneself and try to get it printed, or go help run a
convention and make sure Traveller is played there and that it's *your*
tournament that they're running.

Ask Roger if he thinks I have a death wish for him! :-) Heck, he and I even
used to discuss how best to protect our (or was it just my?) thinning hair! ;-)

>I really want to see that CD product.  I'm afraid the powers that be at 
>IG aren't going to let it get printed because it doesn't fit into their master

I would hope that's not true; IG are, to my knowledge, considering the
concept. *They* would be able to do the job. *DGP*, without full licensing
from IG, would not be able to reprint all the Classic Traveller material,
only their own MT stuff. Whereas IG *could*, by paraphrasing stuff, use the
DGP material without (I believe) Roger's consent. That would be pretty poor
form though and would prevent usage of all that excellent Blair Reynolds
artwork, etc.

>I fear we will never see the CD full of classic Traveller material...

I think these products *will* appear, but they have to be carefully
designed, created and marketed. As an analogy, when coordinating CORE, I
don't just ring up Courtney and say "Hey, we had a good idea the other
day..."; rather, we sent in a 10 page formal document with marketing reasons
for why we wanted to do specific products. The full proposal for each
product is several pages each...

TO SUMMARISE
============

CORE includes Joe Walsh and Stuart Dollar, so between me and them, I think
most thoughts put forward by the TML get heard by Courtney, and all of us
have a STRONG interest in continuing to develop our FAVOURITE RPG, so don't
despair, and please continue to chuck comments at the TML.

However, could I HUMBLY suggest that for something like this DGP thing you
say "I wish we could have back the same writers/artists" or "Have any of the
current DGP 'team' written any Traveller stuff we can look at", etc. Saying
that you wish that the *current* DGP was back writing Traveller stuff, and
implying that this would automatically return Traveller to those halcyon
days can be very misleading to the newbies on the list.

Andy
Chief InDUHvidual at BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)
Head Telephone Sanitiser at CORE Traveller Development Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:36:08 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: The Raid 10 question

Thanks everybody, i got two replies and my answer within one and half hours
of posting it, that beats most "Profesional Service Providors" that i won't
mention for return of the "Correct" answer by factor of X.


Colin Hollands	
Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
MIS Europe & Africa Region
Phone:	0171 413 3413
Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:22:04 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: JTAS 25 and BITS Supplement 101 Cargos

Following from Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK> review
of JTAS 25:

>One Hundred Cargoes by Jo Grant. - Uselful for a trading game, a pity 
>it's lifted fully from 101 Cargos.

Before anyone starts worrying about this, I thought I should explain. Jo
never gave permission for it to be printed in JTAS. He submitted it to IG in
the middle of last year as a concept for a separate supplement. IG never
responded to this idea, although at Euro GEN CON and OrkCon - both events at
which Jo and I were representing IG and BITS and met Ken Whitman in person -
Ken said he'd like to put the 100 cargos into JTAS. Jo's comment each time
was "So send me a contract". No contract ever arrived. The 101 Cargos and
101 Plots books were published at the start of November for OrkCon in
Germany. It was only confirmed that the 100 cargos were in JTAS when I saw
the first reviews of JTAS 25 on the TML. Jo wasn't (and isn't) happy, but I
was talking to IG last night and obviously there was some confusion for
which they apologise and will be sorting things out ASAP.

Our 101 Cargos book contains *101* cargos (one bonus cargo - it has
something to do with a shipment of RPG books which are late...;-) ), plus
the cargo and plot generation tables and shipping hazard codes. These latter
constitute about 15 pages and the cargos about 15 pages. None of the other
stuff was written by Jo, nor has it been submitted anywhere near JTAS.

Although demand in the UK for the 101 books is high, we expect to see some
decline in sales but we have more important "fish to fry" with regard to new
CORE products for IG. It *does* act as a way of providing a further sample
of CORE material to a wider market. Hopefully Jo's very pleased at the very
positive mention that his cargos have received in every review I've seen on
the TML.

Incidentally, I think the JTAS article says Jo submitted it via the
Internet, but he didn't - he posted it. And I don't know if it mentioned the
contribution that Lesley (his 'other half') made.

Roger Howe <rghowe@ozemail.com.au> then says about JTAS25: Tasks in adventures:

>does the task system used in the JTAS25 adventures match
>the one provided in the main rule book?
>For example, page 5 right hand column, line 18-19 of JTAS25:
>"Bypassing the lock is difficult (throw 10+; DM + mechanical skill)"

This is called the "spot the hangover from a game written for a previous
version of Traveller" test. Unfortunately you score less brownie points (to
use against promotion rolls) if it is actually a "mental blockage by an
older Traveller player when writing a T4 adventure" event. Roll a 6+, or 7-
or Difficult or Routine task roll [choose your Traveller system] against a
common skill throughout all T4 systems (Cooking?) to determine which is
which. :-)

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:20:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: The "We Love DGP" Fan Club is announced!

On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Andy Lilly wrote:

> * I created CORE, which publishes 3 licensed printed products for the new
> Traveller (all of which seem to be the least-criticised products out so far
> - ok, they've had a small readership and I really *am* open to *any*
> criticism anyone would care to send me), plus software, plus writing the
> Milieu 0 book, plus currently in the proposal stage of submitting new
> products to IG...
[Snip]
> CORE includes Joe Walsh and Stuart Dollar, so between me and them, I think
> most thoughts put forward by the TML get heard by Courtney, and all of us
> have a STRONG interest in continuing to develop our FAVOURITE RPG, so don't
> despair, and please continue to chuck comments at the TML.

Hey, now wait a minute.  Just because Stu and I sharpened your pencils as 
you single-handedly wrote Milieu 0 doesn't mean we're going to take the heat 
for that product.  I see your method, you bustard!!


- -Joe
Part-time Keeper of the Crayons for CORE
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:07:48 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: TO ALL TRAVELLER COLLECTORS, ETC.

I'm trying to track down anyone who owns a copy of the following Traveller
paraphernalia:

Ship Plan Forms (Games Workshop)
Theta Borealis Sector (Group One)
Marnagua (Group One)
Wabor Parn (Group One)
Personal Data Sheet (Paranoia Press)
Planetary Data Sheet (Paranoia Press)
Starship Log Entry (Paranoia Press)
ISPMV Fenris (FASA)
ZISMV Valkyrie (FASA) [Vlezhdatl?]
Starships: MegaSet 1 (SGS)
Vargr Traveller Poster (?)
4518 Lift Infantry (Duke of Regina's Huscarles cap (Trantor Merchants)
Azhanti High Lightening Cap (Trantor Merchants)
4518 Regiment Patches (Games Systems)

If you possess any one or more of these items, please e-mail me (privately
please, don't waste TML bandwidth).

Thanks.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:33:00 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, bri wrote:

> 
> >Mothballed:  The ship has been completely shut down, pumped full of inert
> >	     gas, bagged, and stuck inside a convenient asteroid.
> 
>  Hmm, a question .. why instead of pumping it full of a gas(which would
> have to be pumped out, also) instead of just leaving it a vacume?
> bri <bri@teleport.com>

In a vacuum, pieces of metal which are touching one another (such as the
"petals" of an iris valve, or the edge of an airlock hatch and the frame
which surrounds it), tend to "weld" themselves together, because there is
no microscopically-thin film of gas molecules sandwiched between them,
keeping them apart.  I don't know how long this process ("vacuum welding") 
takes, but this really does happen.  Of course, this can make those
"salvage the drifting derelict vessel" scenarios more interesting, too...

                                                             - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:33:25 EST
From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton)
Subject: Re: US Army commando recruitment

> Any moron can get into airborne school, and many do.

Um..... yeah  Just like any moron can become a 2nd Lieutenant, and many
do...
Actually Airborne school (jump school) takes all kinds of MOS's (even
ROTC cadets who have no MOS yet)  One doesn't need the 11B MOS to go to
Benning and Jump 5 times..........



Chris

82nd Airborne Division

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:49:37 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: DGP IS DEAD

On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Harley Grantham wrote:

> >From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
> >
> >DGP IS DEAD (or is it?)
> >
> Perhaps the facts, but the color, the prose and yes even the art shows no 
> sign
> of returning in T4 products.  Nor do t4 products, even the much praised 
> CSC seem
> to be as good as the stuff DGP turned out in it's hey day.
> 

I disagree, but that is a longer discussion and periferal to the reason of
this reply

> >This posting is intended to remedy the strange glazing over of the eyes
> >(shortly followed by loss of all common sense and then brain death) that
> >affects anyone mentioning the name "DGP" on this list. 
 
> Yes, I've seen that comment before, and by you the last time too.  
> Forgive me my
> optimism, but I can't help but hope that SOMEBODY other than CORE is 
> capable
> of writing a Traveller supplement the way DGP use to do it.

DGP Put out some of the best products around for Traveller, or any other
game.  The fact is, it was the writers, not the name of the company, that
made those good supplements.  Of course there is reason to be optimistic,
but nnot necessarily about DGP specifically.  The gmae is being actively
published, IG is, in fact, giving out licenses (Roger's CD being an
"exception" in that we do not know the whole story at this point, but
they *are* talking about *some* CD), and there are plenty of interesting
noises and products coming from the field of fan-writers (Like Jo and
Lesley Grant, to name two) with excellent ideas.

> 
> I really want to see that CD product.  I'm afraid the powers that be at 
> IG aren't
> going to let it get printed because it doesn't fit into their master 
> plan.  

This is quite possible.  We have some influence over this course of
action, but the TML is kind of a Microscopic environment - because it is
so vocal it may be an overrepresented segment of the buying population.
It would not necessarily be wise to take what the TML says as the
consensus opinion of the whole. (not to mention that what the TML says can
sometimes be quite self-contradictory).

Ultimately, though, IG makes the decisions about what to license and what
not to, and what direction to develop and which to let lie.  They make
these decisions in an environment which we cannot fully know about, with
factors we are not aware of, and with limitations we do not have to worry
about.  Ranting about what IG isn't doing that would make you're personal
life pure ecstasy is not particularly useful.  Now writing that supplement
you wish the Risen-From-The Ashes DGP to write is quite a useful thing to
do.  You may find, however, that it is more difficult than you had
imagined.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:28:31 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Space Opera (ATTN: Phil McGregor)

Hi,

This isn't really appropriate to the list, but Phil McGregor was asking 
around for some official word of Space Opera's re-release.  I've lost his 
email address, so I'm posting this here.  It's a portion of a weekly 
mailing sent out by one of the online game stores.  Apparently, Space 
Opera has indeed been reprinted by FGU.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:10:10 -0500 (EST)
From: StackMC@aol.com
Subject: Latest Items - 1/15/97

______________
WEB ADDRESS

http://www.dragontrove.com/

NEW RELEASES 

7101 - Space Opera (FGU) - I don't have any info about what printing or
format this is, but it is available again for $15.00.  I have early box sets
still available as well.
5000 - Chivalry & Sorcery (3rd edition) - the latest version of this classic
by Highlander games.  208 page softcover.  $15.00
1697 - First Strike (Battletech) - MINT $9.00

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:26:27 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: US Army commando recruitment

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC038F.5D9E66C0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


> >Ranger school is available to people straight out of basic/AIT, and =
although=20
> >it is highly competitive assignment to a ranger battalion requires no =
more=20
> >than being branched Infantry, graduation from Ranger school and a =
whole lot of=20
> >luck.

[Mark Ayers]  Let us not confuse Ranger school with an assignment to one =
of the Ranger battalions. The Road to a tab for most enlisted folks =
begins with hard slogging in a battalion. The lowest e-grade in my =
Ranger class was a PFC that would get promotion to E-4 CPL upon return.

Ranger School is overrun with 2nd Lieutenants and Rangers from the =
batts.

[Mark Ayers]  Most all Rangers "from the batts" have orders to the =
school that a for a real slot in the class. OTOH, many officers leave =
their initial training with orders to the Ranger School but with no real =
slot waiting for them. I was one of them. After having served enlisted =
as a 11B and gone through ROTC and the Artillery Basic Course I went off =
to Benning with orders to the school. I stood on the parking lot until =
they had told us about five or ten times to go home the class was full. =
I think the first step in culling out those who might not make it among =
the officer ranks are those hours standing out on that lot.

 Any moron can get into airborne school, and many do.

[Mark Ayers]  True Doug. But then you have to been unbalanced to keep on =
doing it in a unit after you've earned the illustrious title "5 Jump =
Chump."     
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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC038F.5D9E66C0--

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 97 11:30:23 EST
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Re: Age of Traveller Players

- ---Tim P. wrote:
 I am 28 and have been playing AOL since ...
- --- end of quote ---
Tee hee! Guess AOL is getting to him! :->

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:41:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Science of Fusion Power Plants (long, gearhead oriented)

Some things I learned at the MIT Plasma Sciences & Fusion Center's tour
yestarday.

Tokamak (toroidal confinement; i.e. doughnut shaped) Fusion Reactors are
expected to be the shape which will finally produce a sustained fusion
reaction.

The inside chamber is lined (at TL8-9) with Molybdenum tiles (just like
the underside of the space shuttle) or, sometimes, Graphite tiles.

Temperature inside the reactor must reach 100 million degrees centirade to
trigger fusion.  Pressure is (only!) about 10 atmospheres.  

(this confuses me since the confinement chamber is stressed to such high
levels)

The "easiest" reaction uses Deuterium and Tritium in a 50-50 mix.
Deuterium is easily obtained, but Tritium must be made and has a 12 year
half life.  The "dream" of fusion is to make a reaction with only
deuterium, which is theoretically possible.

Fuel may be supplied either by "puffing" (deuterium) into the chamber in
the center, or by "firing" frozen deuterium pellets into the plasma from
the outside.

Plasma is simply matter which has had the electrons stripped away from the
nuclei of the atoms. This usually requires high temperatures (or generates
high temperatures) and subjects the matter involved to control by magnetic
forces.  Magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) is the theory of how that matter will
behave when subjected to magnetic and electrical forces of various types.

In addition to three different magnetic polarizing fields, a tokamak also
sets up an electrical current within the plasma, such that the plasma acts
as a "secondary" for a transformer.  I think this is identical to the way
an electric motor works; the outer windings of coil have a current
supplied to them which sets up an induction to the windings around the
inner coil to cause the inner coil to rotate.  In the Tokamak, the plasma
acts as the inner coil.  So there is a "flow" of plasma (quite fast too)
going around the center of the tokamak.  you might say that there is a
current (in the river sense)  caused by a current (in the electrical
sense).

When fusing, Two type of particles are emitted; Alpha particles and
electrons.  The electrons will remain confined and circulate back into the
plasma (along with most of their energy) the alpha particles are what we
need to capture energy from.  Most current designs put a steam turbine in
circuit where the water is heated by the alpha particles to create
electricity.  The alphas are then recycled by passing through a lithium
"blanket" which is wrapped around the outside of the reactor (inside the
magnets).[I am unclear what the lithium does with the alphas at this
point]

The net energy of the power plant is released in the form of the kinetic
energy associated with the electrons and alphas.  This can be captured by
harnessing the heat in these particles, or by some other means.

To take a science fiction tack, it would be useful for the alphas to
somehow be converted directly to electricity, without a messy steam
turbine in the way.  Perhaps an "alpha absorbtion layer" which uses damper
technology to "resist" the alphas and convert their kinetic energy into
electriicity (negatively charged particles, in other words) [help me, I'm
handwaving and can't get up!]

The plasma cross section is not perfectly circular.  Rather the circle is
elongated in the up-down direction and flatter on the inside of the
tokamak (towards the center) than on the outside.  The shape of the plasma
ring is a major theoretical area of study; future tokamaks are even a bit
more elongated than those running now.  A cross section of plasma as it
currently exists can be found on the PSFC Web Site.

Heating the plasma is accomplished in a number of ways.  The electrical
current that is set up by induction causes a geat deal of the initial
heating (20 million degrees C I think he said) .  To boost the temp up to
100 million requires the use of other methods; RF heating uses radio
frequency antennas ("at just below the frequency used by WGBH in Boston")
at about 80 Mhz to energize tha particles.  Some newer reactors use laser
or particle beams to energize the plasma, thereby heating it (CT method
is using lasers).

Divertor physics is another major field of exploration.  in the newest
reactors a "divertor" chamber is at the bottom of the torus all the way
around.  The magnetic field is shaped to "catch" all the escaped particles
(and therefore heat) and divert them into this chamber to be cooled
harmlessly, or receyled back.  The shape of the divertor field, and the
physical shape of the divertor is a matter of intense study.

Turbulence in the plasma is one of the major stopping points of the fusion
reactor.  Chaos theory arose, in part, to study this phenomenon.
Princeton has (I think) a good picture on their web site of turbulent
plasma (simulated by computer and colored).  

The speaker (my boss) equated making fusion to a balancing act, where
forces are kept carefully balanced and active feedback systems constantly
monitor the adjustments that need to be made many times per second.  An
unstable plasma will not only collapse, it will do so in a matter of 1-5
milliseconds, at which point you'll have a jug full of hot gasses.

Plasma does not emit light.  Pictures and films of the plasma showed only
the edge of the plasma where cooler gasses were escaping.  The plasma
itself is invisible.

some components of a Fusion Reactor;
Vacuum Chamber
Vacuum Pump
RF antennas
Pulse Flywheel (or fast discharge electric capacitor).
Molybdenum Tiles (or Lanthanum (according to CT) at higher TL, Graphite at
	lower).
High Power Electromagnets (several winding the chamber in different
	directions).
Deuterium (or just hydrogen) pellet injectors.
Numerous POwer Supplies
Large Electrical transformer
Special Diagnostic Probes, Sampling Probes (all made of Molybdenum or
	Lanthanum)
Lithium Blanket
Computers, Computers, and more computers 
Alpha particle absorbtion device (that makes electricity)
Cooling tubes, coolant recirculators (we use Liquid Nitrogen btw) Coolant
storage (Ignore this if you use Liquid Hydrogen as both fuel and coolant)
Neutron Radiation Shielding
Electric Transformers for storing, absorbing, and distributing electricity
Heavy lift equipment for disassembly and maintanence of the reactor
Numerous monitors, readouts, gauges, idiot lights, flashing operations
lights etc.

One thing that came to me is that a standard Fusion Reactor as installed
should probably be considered two or three reactors.  The reactor here
needs to be taken apart and reassembled on a regular basis; this could be
considered inconvenient (to say the least) if we depended on it for
propulsion, life support, etc.

Another issue is damage.  If the shape of the plasma varies by a very
small amount, it will collapse.  So any hit to the Power Plant on a
starship will shut down that power plant immediately.  If you have three
PPs that means you're available power is cut by 1/3, but if you have only
one...

I hope this proves useful to some of you out there.

Pete 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #852
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 16 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 853



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: JTAS25: Tasks in adventures.
Traveller Starship Miniatures
RE: What is 'Travelleresque'?
Re: Science of Fusion Power Plants (long, gearhead oriented)
RE: Das new guy
Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question
Re: Imperial Navy reserves
[none]
Re: JumpDrives/Space
Re: Science of Fusion Power Plants (long, gearhead oriented)
Re: US Army commando recruitment
Fusion physics
Command Crew for Ship's Troops
Suggestions for Imperium Games
Re: Vilani & Long Pig...
Traveller Integrated Timeline
Re: Command Crew for Ship's Troops
Not a flame, just a request...
Re: World Tamer's Guide et al.
Retirement pay....
RE: Science of Fusion Power Plants (long, gearhead oriented)
RE: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)
Looking for a game 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:50:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: JTAS25: Tasks in adventures.

On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Roger Howe wrote:
> For example, page 5 right hand column, line 18-19 of JTAS25:
> 
> "Bypassing the lock is difficult (throw 10+; DM + mechanical skill)"

This looks like a CT task to me.  I assume it means "throw a 10 or better
on 2 Six-sided dice, and add any mechanical skill to the roll"

As you point out this is not couched in the T4 task system format.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:05:30 -0600
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Traveller Starship Miniatures

Weird, wild stuff...

I was looking at the latest Silent Death release - Night Watch, I think
it's called - and noticed that the recent Traveller starship miniatures for
the Aslan ship, the Gunship, and several other non-GDW designs have been
"appropriated" and are now Silent Death miniatures.

The funny thing is, most of these ships were designed to be between
400-1,000 tons, and are now used to represent fighter-sized craft.

Mixed feelings about this. Well, no. Just sort of sucky feelings about this.

John Kovalic

PS. Am I the only person who thinks Traveller could use a Full Thrust-like
starship combat system? Something more complax than Mayday, a bit easier
than Battle Rider, and more playable than both? The playability is really
the big thing. Something people would seek out because it's a good game,
not just because it's a Traveller game.



********************************************************
           "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --
*
*              MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
*
********************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:13:43 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: What is 'Travelleresque'?

- ----------
From: 	Craig Berry[SMTP:cberry@cinenet.net]
Sent: 	Saturday, January 11, 1997 4:59 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: What is 'Travelleresque'?

> Sounds like we want a commercially successful artist with a deep
> understanding of engineering concepts and with experience
> generating Traveller designs.

I'd settle for just a deep understanding of engineering concepts.  Someone
who knows on a gut level that you don't stick massive objects out on
slender pylons without a damn good reason, that you don't put heavy
aerodynamically meaningless fins on a design without a damn good reason,
and so forth.

How about Masamune Shirow?  He's most famous for Appleseed.  I think he
has a good idea of how to draw vehicles and other gadgets.

Eric Freitas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:16:32 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Science of Fusion Power Plants (long, gearhead oriented)

OK-the Imperium produces enough superdense to armour starships-big ones.
What do you thing control of gravitational fields of the necessary size
to do that implies?

Right!  Direct proton-proton chain fusion. No neutrons at all to deal
with.  That is a result of grav field confinement-it is the same stuff. 
Effectively there should be a definate break at about (TL12-13) not only
showing increased effectiveness of "gravitic confinement," but the
mystical "damper" control over the strong nuclear force that could
enhance it many fold.

These tecnologies and their synergies are quite beyond us now.  But its
still fun tro think about.  Anybody ever suggested proton-proton chain
before?  I don't think so, but Traveller's posit of superdense armour
really points that it might be the powerhouse-not magnetic confinement.

Tom Lane

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:23:16 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: Das new guy

Victor's de lurking Hello has inspired me to add a bit of a hello for =
myself.

I've been at Traveller since the early days and will be at it for many =
more. I am a gearhead in that I like to design equipment and starships. =
For that reason I really like FF&S. The best of all worlds would be a =
completely tableless design system. Give me the formulas and realistic =
reason for limitations and off I will go. I have designed innumerable =
spreadsheets, WordBASIC macros, VBA macros, BASIC and C++ programs for =
personal use.

Even more than stuff though, I love to design places. Lots of places. =
Whole galaxies of places. Down to their most imitate details. I other =
words, I like the control of gaming in a setting I have created. Sure I =
am influenced by the wild and wholly Spinward Marches of CT days and the =
RC of TNE. I especially like what I have gleaned from Marc Miller about =
the nature of the nobility in Milieu 0.

2 cents about the current IG situation. I am confident they will rebound =
from their early mistakes. But then, when did my gaming group ever =
worship a rule they weren't trying to use to manipulate a referee?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 97 19:05 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Gearheads and gamers...a question

In-Reply-To: <32D99293.5DE8@texas.net>

> In response to Joe Walsh's insight as to the necessity of new gamers, do
> we have anyone under 25 years old on the list?  What is the average age
> of the list.  i.e. Are we dinosaurs?

FWIW, I'm 27.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:05:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 04:55:16 -0800
> From: bri <bri@teleport.com>
> 
> >Mothballed:  The ship has been completely shut down, pumped full of inert
> >	     gas, bagged, and stuck inside a convenient asteroid.
> 
>  Hmm, a question .. why instead of pumping it full of a gas(which would
> have to be pumped out, also) instead of just leaving it a vacume?

First off, you don't have to pump it out if you don't want it in there any
more...just open a few hatches, and stand back. :)  (This is presuming
that the ship *exterior* is in vacuum, of course.)

I can think of two reasons you'd want an inert, low-pressure gas (probably
nitrogen -- cheap, nonreactive) in your ship during storage:

(1) Vacuum-welding prevention.  Metal surfaces in contact with one another
    in a vacuum tend to weld if they're not either moved now and then, or
    coated with a nonvolatile protective layer.  Having a little gas
    around prevents vacuum welding without expensive, labor-intensive
    treatment of individual components.

(2) Temperature control.  Particularly if the ship is stored in open space
    relatively near a star (say, inside the orbit of Mars in our own solar
    system), extremes of heat and cold may occur over the structure of
    the ship.  While the hull is probably quite capable of handling this,
    interior componenets probably aren't.  The cheapest and easiest way
    to maintain a reasonable temperature inside the ship is to flood it
    with gas, then use a few low-powered heaters and some thermostats
    to keep the gas in your desired temperature range.  Near a star, the
    gas will help conduct/convect heat away from the sunlit side; far
    from a star, it will keep everything from dropping to cryogenic
    temperatures, which aren't necessarily healthy for precision
    mechanical components, electronics, and the like.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:02:23 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Subject: [none]



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:13:43 +0000
From: D Jones <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: JumpDrives/Space

At 09:02 16/01/97 -0500, Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org> wrote:
>
>
>from TLM Digest #851
>TBSVT@aol.com wrought...
>
>>*************WARNING Bullshittium present in large amounts*************
>
>
>>        I have a few things that I want to ask this list O Traveller Wise 
>man
>>Have to do With J-drives and space. Ok here it goes please correct me If 
>I'm
>>wrong
<Snip p p p !>
>
>Here's my rule of thumb for funky things GM's can do with multi-drives, 
>misjumps, etc...
>
>1. You have nothing set up, and you don't want to fatutz with it, so, as 
>Cmdr. Ivanova says, >*BOOM*<
>
>2. Standard Misjump 1d6 for direction hex on map, 6d6 parsecs out.  2d6 days 
>duration.
>
>3. Major rift in space-time.  GM decides which sector, or even QUADRANT you 
>end up in. Aka wormhole.
>
>4. Temporal Displacement. Time travel forward or back, GM's whim
>
>5. Traped in a alternate dimention, laws of physics slightly off kilter(i.e. 
>magic exists). Or a alternate history (ala "Sliders") universe.
>
>6. Temporal and Spacial Displacement.  Arive back at the big bang, encounter 
>the 4th Imperium, witness the assaination of "Strephon", again....
>
>These are merely suggestions, I dont think a single one is cannon anywhere, 
>but when you gotta wing it...
>
>Commander X
>CEO X-TEK  Count of Planet X
>and Part time Pira...er....Privateer

> ------------------------------
>
There's some pretty cool information on this in a Challenge magazine from
way back..(at the beginning of MT(?)) but post 26.
I don't know which issue 'cos most of my challenges were destroyed in a flood.
                    :-(

However I'd already photocopies some really useful items and kept them safe.

Project Farstar was one of them (must have been start of MT 'cos DGP (wow
what marvellous products they did!!-had to get that one in!) were
advertising TD11 - with the Geonee merchant captain Fornee, and another
mechant captain on the cover.)

Dated 1988

It gave you few ideas about what could happen and I think 3 adventure plots,
and a few witty Deus Ex Machina plots for things went really pear shaped!

Hope this is of som assistance.

Del

Lancashire UK
Del Jones
Lancashire, UK

"Sodomus non cogito" - Karol Siinger 105-1116

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:58:13 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Science of Fusion Power Plants (long, gearhead oriented)

On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> Temperature inside the reactor must reach 100 million degrees centirade to
> trigger fusion.  Pressure is (only!) about 10 atmospheres.  

This is a tradeoff.  At higher pressures, you can use lower temperatures.
The sun isn't as hot as some fusion reactors, but has much higher pressures,
for example.

> (this confuses me since the confinement chamber is stressed to such high
> levels)

The stresses on the confinement chamber are due to the magnetic fields.
You have, in essence, a large number of parallel wires with currents
running through them.  These wires are all pulling themselves together,
thus compressing your structure.  This creates high mechanical stresses
which your structure must be able to withstand.

> In addition to three different magnetic polarizing fields, a tokamak also
> sets up an electrical current within the plasma, such that the plasma acts
> as a "secondary" for a transformer.  I think this is identical to the way
> an electric motor works; the outer windings of coil have a current
> supplied to them which sets up an induction to the windings around the
> inner coil to cause the inner coil to rotate.  In the Tokamak, the plasma
> acts as the inner coil.  So there is a "flow" of plasma (quite fast too)
> going around the center of the tokamak.  you might say that there is a
> current (in the river sense)  caused by a current (in the electrical
> sense).

This secondary current in the plasma is what heats it.  Much like current
in a wire will cause the wire to heat up, current in the plasma will cause
the plasma to heat up.  There are other methods (as you said), but most
of those cause disturbances in the plasma.

> When fusing, Two type of particles are emitted; Alpha particles and
> electrons.  The electrons will remain confined and circulate back into the
> plasma (along with most of their energy) the alpha particles are what we
> need to capture energy from.  Most current designs put a steam turbine in
> circuit where the water is heated by the alpha particles to create
> electricity.  The alphas are then recycled by passing through a lithium
> "blanket" which is wrapped around the outside of the reactor (inside the
> magnets).[I am unclear what the lithium does with the alphas at this
> point]

I don't recall, but I think that the Lithium absorbing the particles is
involved in generating deuterium or tritium, but I'm not sure...

> To take a science fiction tack, it would be useful for the alphas to
> somehow be converted directly to electricity, without a messy steam
> turbine in the way.  Perhaps an "alpha absorbtion layer" which uses damper
> technology to "resist" the alphas and convert their kinetic energy into
> electriicity (negatively charged particles, in other words) [help me, I'm
> handwaving and can't get up!]

Easier yet, there's a reaction (I don't remember which, maybe D-D) which
generates almost exclusively electrons.  If you capture these, you have
electricity without any intervening steps.  If you pulse your reactor at
60Hz, you can hook it up to your power lines.  I guess you'd have to
regulate voltage, but you'd be able to eliminate a conversion step and up
your efficiency.

> The speaker (my boss) equated making fusion to a balancing act, where
> forces are kept carefully balanced and active feedback systems constantly
> monitor the adjustments that need to be made many times per second.  An
> unstable plasma will not only collapse, it will do so in a matter of 1-5
> milliseconds, at which point you'll have a jug full of hot gasses.

My understanding was that the plasma was basically stable, meaning that it
tends to remain in the torus.  All of our reactors now are very experimental.
I'm sure that by the time that they are used routinely in space ships, they
will be much more stable.  An example of how experimental our reactors are:
As of a couple of years ago, no fusion reactor had achieved a self sustained
reaction (where no heating is required to keep the reaction going).

> One thing that came to me is that a standard Fusion Reactor as installed
> should probably be considered two or three reactors.  The reactor here
> needs to be taken apart and reassembled on a regular basis; this could be
> considered inconvenient (to say the least) if we depended on it for
> propulsion, life support, etc.

Again, in the far future, these reactors will probably be a lot more reliable
and go longer between refits.  Neutron absorption will always be a problem,
though, and reactors will probably have to be replaced as they become
contaminated.

> Another issue is damage.  If the shape of the plasma varies by a very
> small amount, it will collapse.  So any hit to the Power Plant on a
> starship will shut down that power plant immediately.  If you have three
> PPs that means you're available power is cut by 1/3, but if you have only
> one...

Again, I doubt that Traveller fusion reactors will be this unreliable.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 97 21:16:27 UT
From: "Arthur Murphy" <MycroftHolmes@msn.com>
Subject: Re: US Army commando recruitment

> Any moron can get into airborne school, and many do.

Um..... yeah  Just like any moron can become a 2nd Lieutenant, and many do...
I should know, I did both.  

Arthur Murphy
Mycroftholmes@msn.com
"If you can't get out of it, get into it"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:36:00 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <diemos@ican.net>
Subject: Fusion physics

That was a good summary of tokamak operations, Peter.  However, I feel
I must make one correction.  Forgive me if I'm a little keen -- I'm
taking a Plasma Physics and Fusion Energy course right now.

The main fusion products from D + T (Deuterium and Tritium) fusion
are not alphas and electrons, they are alphas and neutrons:
	D+ + T+ --> He4++ (3.52 MeV) + n (14.1 MeV)
The alpha (which is the He4++) is charged, so it is held in the
containment field.  Its 3.52 MeV of energy goes towards heating
the plasma.  It is the neutron, which is not charged, that escapes
and ends up in the lithium blanket.  It will create more tritium
for the reaction by:
	Li6 + n --> He4 + T
or	Li7 + n --> He4 + T + n

You can also fuse deuterium alone, if you don't have any tritium.
It requires more energy, but is certainly possible.  If CSC says
that fusion plants now burn D, then I guess this is what happens:
	6D+ --> 2H+ + 2n + 2He4++ + 43.2 MeV.

I would now like to offer my take on starship fusion plants.  It
is certainly cannon that they can scoop fuel from gas giants, and
that they can even run on unrefined fuel.  This pretty much precludes
them using deuterium, or at least not in a regular tokamak.  However,
nuclear dampers are also cannon Traveller technology.  They can be
used to alter the local values of the strong and weak nuclear forces.
Thus, it should be possible to increase the fusion crossection of
H + H (largely a weak interaction) or H + D (a strong interaction).
In my universe, this is how starships work.  And no, I have no clue
how Fusion+ works.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:12:38 -0500
From: "Matthew R. Briggs" <briggsm@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
Subject: Command Crew for Ship's Troops

Hello Everyone,
	I've been lurking for a while wondering when would be the best time to =
join the discussion.  I've got a bit of a question I wanted to ask, =
relating to command crew for ship's troops.  In T4 (and TNE, and MT, =
that's as far back as I remember) ship's troops are counted as part of =
the total crew to be divided by six to get command crew.  But does this =
make sense?  All command crewmembers require a workstation, but why =
would the leader of a marine squad need one?  Wouldn't he go with the =
rest of the troops?
	Also, based on the officer/enlisted man ratio in modern armies, 1/6 =
seems a lot of commanders if the command crew are considered officers.  =
More likely, most of them are NCOs.
	My thinking is that command crew can be considered included in ship's =
troops (that is, when you set aside space for 7 marines, 1 is considered =
an NCO leader, etc.).  They would not need workstations, though =
commanders would get paid more, if that is an issue.
	By the way, for whoever is keeping track, I'm a 22-year old graduate =
student in military/diplomatic history, and I've been playing Traveller =
since, oh, about 1991 or so.  The first incarnation I used was MT, and I =
really loved TNE, but I've been away from it for about 2 1/2 years until =
recently when I discovered T4. =20
	I think it's pretty cool...but I'd be really excited to see a CD, =
because there is some stuff that I remember (I don't have any of my old =
books anymore) which is missing from the new rules set.  In particular, =
I would LOVE to get my hands on a copy of DGP's _World Builder's =
Handbook_, if anyone knows where it may be found.  Thanks!

__________
Matthew R. Briggs
briggsm@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
The George Washington University

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:50:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Suggestions for Imperium Games

Hi,

Just wanted to bring to your attention the new email addresses on IG's 
web site.  They are:

main office:  imperiumgames@imperiumgames.com
web master: webmaster@imperiumgames.com
sales: sales@imperiumgames.com
suggestions: suggestions@imperiumgames.com

So, when you think of a way IG could improve their products, or if you 
have a suggestion for a future product, send 'em to that last address.  
That way, you'll be sure that the right person sees your ideas! :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:36:38 -0500
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vilani & Long Pig...

In a message dated 97-01-12 13:01:54 EST, you write:

>       Wouldn't this mean, therefore, that one of the best sources of
>protein loose on Vland would be... other Vilani?  I'd suspect that a lot of
>early Vilani cuisine would have consisted of
>Those-jerks-from-the-next-valley-over stew...
>
>        Canon?  Non-canon?  am I out to lunch?

If you are out to lunch, I really do not want to know where...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:38:54 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@csci.csc.com>
Subject: Traveller Integrated Timeline

A new version of the integrated timeline is now available!

http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/trav.html

Also, check the Timeline Explanations page, for a list of items still 
needed, the people I want to thank, some inconsistencies which exist, and
other web sites I have found useful...
- --
============================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,           (217) 351-8250 x2365 = 
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL       dmckinne@csci.csc.com =
= Winter War XXIV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 14-16, 1997 =
= Official Kibitzer and Archivist for Digest Group Publications            =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org       (217) 469-9917 = 
============================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:43:53 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Command Crew for Ship's Troops

At 05:12 PM 1/16/97 -0500, Matthew R. Briggs wrote:

>	I've been lurking for a while wondering when would be the best time 
>to join the discussion.  I've got a bit of a question I wanted to ask, 
>relating to command crew for ship's troops.  In T4 (and TNE, and MT, that's 
>as far back as I remember) ship's troops are counted as part of the total 
>crew to be divided by six to get command crew.  But does this make sense?  
>All command crewmembers require a workstation, but why would the leader
>of a marine squad need one?  Wouldn't he go with the rest of the troops?

The position could be for a communications/liaison/fire-control officer,
whose job it is to keep track of the ship's troops as they deploy, and relay
their situation and needs to the captain.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   If I die and go to heaven, I will do what all     |
|  San Francicans do... I'll look around, and say to  |
|  St. Peter "it's nice, but it ain't San Francisco"  |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 97 00:06:35 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Not a flame, just a request...

	
>Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:51:31 +0000
>From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
>Subject: Traveller/BAB5
>
>Two things has anybody attempted yet to convert BAB5 to T4, i'd be
>interested in this, a friend of mine is trying to create the NAAN at the
>moment,
>
>Second and this may already have been covered in early TML's, if so i
>apologize i've only been subscribed a week, but in T4 character gen you
can
>only become a commando as a post Honours Graduate course to a forces
>academy, preverbial rose fertilizer, why change it from the MT special
>mission  which i think worked and is more realistic, i don't know how it
>works in the americas but if you join the forces over here, you can't go
>streight into special forces (I.E. the SAS) you have to have a parent unit
>which you have been with for a number of years first such as the Para's
>prove your worth thier before applying and then taking a two year
probation
>before being accepted into the ranks, and if you happen to be an orifficor
>then you are limited to only three years service anyway before being
>shipped back to your parent unit.
>

Um, Colin?  Can I ask a really important question?
Could you /please/ use periods to seperate your sentences next time you
post?  I would really appreciate it, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  As the
title says, this is just a request, not a flame.  Thanks in advance,

Jeff
- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\      "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________
        odysseus@novia.net
  http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:01:53 +0000 (GMT)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Subject: Re: World Tamer's Guide et al.

On Mon, 27 Aug 1956, Jason Doell wrote:
> 
> The one book in TNE that I have not been able to find was the World 
> Tamers Handbook. What kind of info did the WTH contain?? Was it a book 
> about designing worlds as FF&S was about designing equipment?? And does 
> anyone know where I can find a copy, as I have tried all of western 
> Canada to find it with out success. I am thinking of buying Gillett's 
> book World Builders Handbook but thought I would hold off if the WTH is 
> similar and set in the traveller style.  (or perhaps there is a new book 
> coming out that will fill my need)??

  WTH is a regurgitation of a similar product put out by DGP before it
collapsed.

  Essentially, it's a set of rules for exploring, developing, and living
on _real_ frontier worlds. A must have for any RC fan.

- -- DLH                                      lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "The fact that slaughter is a horrifying spectacle must make us take
war more seriously, but does not provide an excuse for gradually
blunting our swords in the name of humanity. Sooner or later, someone
will come along with a sharper sword and hack off our arms."
                                                  - Karl von Clausewitz

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:05:39 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Subject: Retirement pay....

The one point that has always seemed off, and they tried to fix it in =
TNE, is retirement pay.  A private retiring gets the same pay as Fleet =
commander.  Does everyone get the same pay in their careers despite =
rank?  I can see the desire for a simple character generation system but =
there should be some kinda modifier for the different ranks.  Anybody =
had ideas for this?

Clint Fishback

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:20:03 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: Science of Fusion Power Plants (long, gearhead oriented)

- ----------
From: 	Peter  H. Brenton[SMTP:pete@cummings.uchicago.edu]
Sent: 	Thursday, January 16, 1997 6:41 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Science of Fusion Power Plants (long, gearhead oriented)


>To take a science fiction tack, it would be useful for the alphas to
>somehow be converted directly to electricity, without a messy steam
>turbine in the way.  Perhaps an "alpha absorbtion layer" which uses damper
>technology to "resist" the alphas and convert their kinetic energy into
>electriicity (negatively charged particles, in other words) [help me, I'm
>handwaving and can't get up!]

Already been done.  The item you're looking for is a Thermionic Diode.  It's
a lot like a solar cell, only it converts the energy from high energy particles 
into electricity.  The Russians have built them into their "Topaz" fission 
reactors.  No moving parts, so it _should_ have a long service life.  :)

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:32:01 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: O2 sources & fusion byproducts (fwd)

David Smart Wrote:

>Is there a web site where can we find info on this? Or any published
>papers/books?

There was a web site for the Plasmak, I'll have to find it though.  I'm not
so sure about the spheromak.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:55:08 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Looking for a game 

	Since everyone else seems to be giving their names and gaming 
experience I thought I ought to.  I have been gaming since 1979, starting
with D&D.  After moving to california in '81, I was introduced to AD&D, then
a year or so later to Traveller.  In '85 I graduated HS and joined the USAF.
While in the Air Force I learned to play Champions, Car Wars, and ran 
Space Opera.  Now I've started to run Traveller.  
	I am 29 years old, married (8.5yrs), and am expecting our first 
child any day now :)  I studied electronics in college and taught myself
computer programming.  So now I'm an engineer, designing both the 
hardware and software for embedded electronics systems for the 
fire fighting industry.
	I now live in Ocala, Florida and would like to know if there are
any other members on this list in the area's of Ocala or Gainesville?
 

Eric Freitas

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #853
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 17 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 854



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Science of Fusion Power Plants (long, gearhead oriented)
Re: Science of Fusion Power Plants
part2-outline
Re: Imperial Navy reserves
Re: Science of Fusion Power Plants
Re: Imperial Navy reserves
Re: Imperial Navy reserves (fwd)
For immediate feedback
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #852
Re: Imperial Navy reserves
Starship Combat
To Punctuate or Not
Re: Science of Fusion Power Plants (long, gearhead oriented)+ superdense swords?
Re: The "We Love DGP" Fan Club is announced!
Fusion and neutrinos

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:26:33 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Science of Fusion Power Plants (long, gearhead oriented)

Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> 
> Some things I learned at the MIT Plasma Sciences & Fusion Center's tour
> yestarday.
> 
    <snip>
> 
> I hope this proves useful to some of you out there.
> 
> Pete

WOW! Thanks, Pete; this is great stuff!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:33:40 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Science of Fusion Power Plants

Tom Lane wrote:
> 
> OK-the Imperium produces enough superdense to armour starships-big ones.
> What do you thing control of gravitational fields of the necessary size
> to do that implies?
> 
> Right!  Direct proton-proton chain fusion. No neutrons at all to deal
> with.  That is a result of grav field confinement-it is the same stuff.
> Effectively there should be a definate break at about (TL12-13) not only
> showing increased effectiveness of "gravitic confinement," but the
> mystical "damper" control over the strong nuclear force that could
> enhance it many fold.
> 
> These tecnologies and their synergies are quite beyond us now.  But its
> still fun tro think about.  Anybody ever suggested proton-proton chain
> before?  I don't think so, but Traveller's posit of superdense armour
> really points that it might be the powerhouse-not magnetic confinement.
> 
> Tom Lane

Interesting point, Tom. My thoughts were that if superdense material is
available, wouldn't this allow increasing the pressure far beyond 10
atmospheres thereby also allowing the required temperature to be
reduced? So which is easier and/or more cost effective to have, low
pressure or low temperature?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:49:55 -0600
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: part2-outline

From: rfheeter@pppl.gov
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion,sci.answers,news.answers
Subject: Conventional Fusion FAQ Section 0/11 (Intro) Part 2/3 (Outline)
Date: 25 Nov 1996 06:07:48 GMT
Approved: news-answers-request@MIT.EDU
Message-ID: <fusion-faq/section0-intro/part2-outline_848901927@rtfm.mit.edu>

Archive-name: fusion-faq/section0-intro/part2-outline
Last-modified: 26-Feb-1995
Posting-frequency: More-or-less-quarterly

- -------------------------------------------------------------------
### Outline and List of Questions in the Conventional Fusion FAQ
- -------------------------------------------------------------------

# Written/Edited by Robert F. Heeter, rfheeter@pppl.gov.

# (Outline subject to change; this list current on February 26, 1995)

*** 1. Fusion as a Physical Phenomenon:
     [Archive-name: fusion-faq/section1-physics]
        A.  What is fusion?
        B.  How does fusion release energy?
        C.  Where does fusion occur in nature?
        D.  Why doesn't fusion occur anywhere else in nature?
        E.  What are the basic fusion reactions?
        F.  Could you tell me more about these different elements?
        G.  Why is the deuterium-tritium (D-T) reaction the easiest?
        H.  What is aneutronic fusion?
        I.  What sort of fusion reactor is the sun?
        J.  Why is it so hard to create controlled man-made fusion reactions?
        K.  What is plasma physics, and how is it related to fusion?
        L.  Just how hot and confined do these plasmas need to be?
                        (Or, what conditions are needed for controlled fusion?)
        M.  What are the basic approaches used to heat and confine
                        the plasma?  (Or, what is magnetic confinement?
                        Inertial confinement?)

*** 2. Fusion as a Future Energy Source:
 2.1 Technical Characteristics
     [Archive-name: fusion-faq/section2-energy/part1-tech]
        A.  What would a fusion energy plant look like?
        B.  What fuels can a fusion reactor burn?
        C.  What are the different methods for converting fusion energy
                to useful energy?
        D.  What would a D-T fusion reactor look like?
        E.  How do you get the plasma hot enough for fusion to occur?
        F.  What are the materials requirements for fusion?
        G.  Are any of these materials scarce?
        H.  How large would a fusion reactor be?  Why?
 2.2 Environmental Characteristics
     [Archive-name: fusion-faq/section2-energy/part2-enviro]
        A.  What are fusion's major potential environmental advantages?
        B.  But isn't fusion nuclear?  What about radioactive waste?
        C.  What key technologies are needed to achieve these advantages?
        D.  What are the materials and fuel requirements for fusion?
        E.  What about renewable energy sources?
               Why do we need fusion at all?
 2.3 Safety Characteristics Economic Characteristics
     (Under construction)
 2.4 Economic Characteristics
     (Under construction)
 2.5 Fusion for Space Applications
     (Under construction)

*** 3. Fusion as a Scientific Research Program
 3.1 Chronology of Events and Ideas
     (Under construction)
              When did fusion research begin?
              When was fusion research declassified?
       What is the current state of fusion research?
                   Close / far from achieving practical benefits?
 3.2 Major Institutes and Policy Actors
     (Under construction)
       Who is doing fusion, and where?  (funds distribution?)
              What level of international cooperation is there?
 3.3 History of Achievements and Funding
        (Under construction)
           What is the history of fusion funding (US, FUSSR, EC, Japan)?
              What is the history of achievement of fusion parameters?

*** 4. Methods of Confinement /
                Approaches to fusion:
 4.1 Toroidal Magnetic Confinement Approaches
     (Under construction)
        A. What is a tokamak / how does it work?
        B. What is a stellarator / " " " " ?
        C.   "  " reversed-field pinch / " " " " ?
        D. What is a Field-Reversed Configuration / how does it work?
        E.   "  "  " Plasmak / "   "    "   " ?
        F. What is a Migma / how does it work?
 4.2 Alternative Confinement Methods / Approaches
     (Under construction)
        A. Gravitational Confinement
        B. Inertial Confinement
        C. Mirror Confinemen
        D. Muon-catalyzed Fusion
        E. Electrostatic Confinement
        F. What about the pinch methods?
        G. What are some other confinement approaches?

*** 5. Status of and plans for Present Devices:
     [Archive-name: fusion-faq/section5-devices]
        A.  Flagship Tokamaks
                1.  ITER: (International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor)
                2.  JET: (Joint European Torus)
                3.  JT-60: (Japan Tokamak (?))
                4.  TFTR:  (Tokamak Fusion Test Reactor)
                5.  TPX: (Tokamak Physics Experiment)
        B.  Medium to Large Tokamaks
                1.  Alcator C-Mod:
                2.  ASDEX-U:  (Axially Symmetric Divertor EXperiment-Upgrade)
                3.  DIII-D:  (Doublet III, D-shape)
                4.  FT: (Frascati Tokamak)
                5.  NSTX: (National Spherical Tokamak eXperiment)
                6.  PBX-M:  (Princeton Beta Experiment-Modified)
                7.  TCV: (Variable Configuration Tokamak - in French)
                8.  TdeV:  (Tokamak de Varenne)
                9.  TEXTOR:
                10. Tore Supra:
        C.  Small Tokamaks
                1:  CDX-U (Current Drive eXperiment-Upgrade)
                2.  START:  (Small, Tight-Aspect-Ratio Tokamak)
                3.  TEXT-U: (Texas Experimental Tokamak-Upgrade?)
        D.  Stellarators
                1.  ATF  (Advanced Toroidal Facility)
                2.  Wendelstein-7AS:  (Advanced Stellarator)
                3.  Wendelstein-7X
        E.  Inertial Confinement
                1.  NIF:  (National Ignition Facility)
                2.  Nova:
                3.  Omega:
                4.  NIKE:
        F.  Alternative Methods
                1.  Electrostatic Confinement:
                2.  MFTF:  Mirror Fusion Test Facility:
                3.  Muon-Catalyzed Fusion
                4.  Plasmak:
                5.  RFX:  (Reversed-Field eXperiment)

*** 6. Recent Results
     [Archive-name: fusion-faq/section6-results]
        A.  Recent Results on TFTR:
                 (a) What was done?
                 (b) Why does it matter?
        B.  Recent Results from JET
        C.  Recent Results from Inertial Confinement Fusion
        D.  Recent Results from Muon-Catalyzed Fusion
        E.  Recent major results from other experiments, and theoretical work
        F.  Recent Political News
        G.  Appendix on TFTR and JET results

*** 7. Educational Issues and Conferences:
     [Archive-name: fusion-faq/section7-education]
        A.  What opportunities are there for interested students?
        B.  I'm an undergraduate interested in becoming a "fusioneer."
                What should I study?
        C.  What sorts of experiments are there for high-school students?
                How can I get the equipment?  Has anyone else done this?
        D.  What about those summer programs you mentioned above?
        E.  When/where are the major fusion conferences?

*** 8. Internet Resources:
     [Archive-name: fusion-faq/section8-internet]
        A. Newsgroups
        B. WAIS (Wide-Area-Information-Server)
        C. World-Wide Web
        D. Gopher
        E. Anonymous FTP Sites
        F. Listservers
        G. Electronic Bulletins
        H. Individuals Willing to Provide Additional Information

*** 9. Future Plans:
  (Under construction)
        (a) Plans for TPX?
        (b) Plans for ITER?
        (c) Prospects for funding? (US, EC, Japan, FUSSR)
        (d) What problems in designing a fusion powerplant?
                Rad waste, materials choices, device parameters ???
        (e) What are the key research problems/opportunities?

*** 10. Bibliography / Reading List
     [Archive-name: fusion-faq/section10-biblio]
        A. Recent articles in the popular literature.
        B. General References and Histories
           (suitable for those with minimal background in physics or fusion).
        C. Fusion Research Review Articles & Texts
        D. Plasma Physics - General Texts
         (focus is on the science of plasmas, rather than engineering reactors)
        E.  Plasma Physics - Device-Specific
                (applications of plasma physics to specific devices)
        F. Fusion Reactor Engineering References
        G. List of Relevant Scientific Journals
        H. Unclassified / Unsummarized works.  (Please help me move
                references out of this section and into sections 1-4 by
                contributing reviews of sources you know about!)

*** 11. Acknowledgements and Citations
     [Archive-name: fusion-faq/section11-acknowledgements]
(I've had a lot of help, so I needed a separate section to list everyone!)

*** Glossary of Frequently Used Terms in Plasma Physics
     and Fusion Energy Research (FUT)
Part 0/26: Introduction to the Glossary / FUT
     [Archive-name: fusion-faq/glossary/part0-intro]

Parts 1/26, 2/26, ..., 26/26:
    Glossary terms from A to Z (one file per letter)
    [ Archive-names: fusion-faq/glossary/a
                     fusion-faq/glossary/b
                     ...
                     fusion-faq/glossary/z ]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:49:25 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

bri wrote:
> 
> At 08:12 PM 1/16/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >bri wrote:
> >>
> >> >Mothballed:  The ship has been completely shut down, pumped full of inert
> >> >            gas, bagged, and stuck inside a convenient asteroid.
> >>
> >>  Hmm, a question .. why instead of pumping it full of a gas(which would
> >> have to be pumped out, also) instead of just leaving it a vacume?
> >> bri <bri@teleport.com>
> >
> >To avoid the natural process by which material in contact with each
> >other tend to share molecules when in a vacuum and eventually become
> >inseparable. More commonly known as "Vacuum welding". Storing objects
> >in an inert gas helps avoid this as well as minimizing any oxidation.
> 
>  Hmm, I wasn't aware of this .. How long would it take for 2 things to weld
> together?
>  This could pose some problems for the typicial 'no life support abandoned
> 1000 year old ship' plot ;>
> bri <bri@teleport.com>

Per my wife, who's a mechanical engineer, vacuum welding can occur in
as little as 3-10 years. The majority of your 1000 year old ship would
be large masses of useless metal. :-(

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:11:24 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Science of Fusion Power Plants

Dave,
Well, I used to be a physics major(long time ago.)  Temperature is the
average kinetic energy of an atom/molecule.  Pressure is the force of a
group of molecules distributed over an area.  They are the same
variable, ie increase temperature in a confined area and you have
increased pressure, and vice versa.

Folks have been talking about Tritium-Deuterium fusion and DD fusion,
but basically ignoring proton proton fusion because the only place
capable of creating the temperature/pressure necessary is the
sun-because of its huge gravity well.  

If you have a strong enough gravity well(big Traveller assumption,)
proton proton becomes available.  Probably at the TL when superdense is
introduced(I think 13,) because that is when industrial ultragravity has
to exist to produce the armour.

I guess the use of superdense would allow superhigh pressure generation,
but my gut feeling is that this is a roundabout way to produce
confinement.  Highgravitic would be the ultimate type of inertial
confinement, smashing monoatomic hydrogen together in a field implosion.
Add a strong nuclear damper with a point node enhancing the strong
nuclear force, and you get a massive, clean fusion plant.  No neutrons,
unless you burn deuterium or tritium.  

They can explode, too, if your grav field looses containment and is
fusion a lot of hydrogen at the time.  Again this is unimaginable to our
present tech, but call me again when we learn to control gravity(if
ever:(

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:14:31 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

> Per my wife, who's a mechanical engineer, vacuum welding can occur in
> as little as 3-10 years. The majority of your 1000 year old ship would
> be large masses of useless metal. :-(


If ship hulls are made of superdense, would they vacuum weld?  They are
collapsed down to their electon shells, and possibly chemically inert
because of that.  In lieu of that idea, would a superdense surface be
virtually frictionless-now there is an idea for a new Traveller melee
weapon.

I'll bet superdense really wouldn't stay superdense without a strong
field present.
Bored Tom

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:30:44 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves (fwd)

Hi David, et alii;

Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:49:25 -0800
> From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
> 
> Per my wife, who's a mechanical engineer, vacuum welding can occur in
> as little as 3-10 years. The majority of your 1000 year old ship would
> be large masses of useless metal. :-(

Teflon will resolve this issue quite nicely. The main depracatory force on a
space ship will be long term radiation damage and impacts from hi-v objects.
It will be swiss-cheese long before an eon passes.

I would like to make a suggestion to anyone interested in these issues if I
may. I do high-performance and experimental rocketry as well as robotics and
if you would like to get a better idea of what is going on in space and
materials sciences it would be worth your while to spend $12/yr. on NASA Tech
Briefs. You might also want to make regular trips to Survival Research Labs
(www.srl.org), The Robot Group (www.robotgroup.org), Society of Amateur
Scientist (www.thesphere.com/SAS/), Pacific Coast Rocketry
(www.asesur.com/prs/), Experimental Spacecraft Society (www.wallis.com/ess/),
and NOAA NIC (nic.noaa.gov). Also the National Academy Press is now online
with a wide selection of books available real-time (www.nap.com).

Both Pacific Coast Rocketry and Experimental Spacecraft Society are working
to be the first groups to have amateur rockets w/ payloads (I am working on
a spun-mirror telescope indipendantly of both groups) placed into orbit
($100,000 reward). Both of these groups allow anyone to join (there is a fee)
and participate. PCR is by far the most advanced group in the US if not the
world.

Hope some of this helps.

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:50:53 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: For immediate feedback

Here's your chance to look over a piece I'm working on and provide
feedback.  Please be gentle....  :-)

Ship Weaponry In the Terran Republic

   Traditionally, warships and other armed vessels within the Imperium
and the Solomani Confederation mounted one secondary weapon (turret,
barbette) per 100 tons displacement, and one primary weapon (bay, spinal
mount) per 1000 tons displacement.  The 1:100/1:1000 ratio was
maintained because the Imperial and Solomani navies had substantial ship
construction facilities and high quality starports at their disposal,
making hulls both cheap and plentiful.  So cheap and plentiful in fact,
weapons were considered by many to be the biggest cost driver in warship
construction.  There also existed a school of thought amongst Imperial
and Solomani naval architects which believed that spreading the weaponry
of a given fleet out amongst as many ship hulls as possible meant that
it took more damage to reduce the combat effectiveness of that fleet.=20
Thus, fleets were large, and worked generally en mass (battleships and
cruisers almost always worked in squadrons unless they were on flag
waving detail).

   In the post-Collapse era, however, meeting engagements on the
frontier consisting of individual one-on-one combat or small task forces
with no more than three capital vessels are the norm.  Being able to
quickly overwhelm an opponent (or better yet catch them by surprise) is
critical.  Fleets try to take as little damage as possible, because
starports are fewer and farther between, and of much less average
quality than during the Imperial era.  This tends to encourage designers
to install better sensors, increase weapon effectiveness, and create
redundancy (or increase it) when possible in important systems, such as
master fire directors and communications equipment.

   Early on in the Terran Republic, there were critical shortages of
military spaceship hulls, particularly starships.  These shortages were
caused by a number of factors, primarily a lack of proper Naval ship
yards (many are still being reconstructed), an emphasis in commercial
yards on the construction merchant vessels (which at the time were more
lucrative to build), and budgetary considerations, particularly during
the Dasovich administration.  The result was that the Navy=92s architects
had to figure out a method of significantly increasing the combat
effectiveness of the fleets of the growing Republic, while at the same
time making do with only a slow growth in the total number of combatant
hulls. =20

   Their answer can be summed up in one word: firepower.  Terran
Republic warships have a secondary weapon and defensive armaments to
displacement ratio of 3:100 (3 turrets or barbettes per 100 tons
displacement), and also have significantly more weapons bays than their
Imperial or Solomani counterparts.  Even armed civilian craft have a
ratio of turrets/barbettes to displacement of around 2:100, which would
technically qualify them as warships in many regions of space.

   Increasing the amounts of weapons on each ship hull is not without
drawbacks=97more weapons in general means more gunners and thus larger
crews (crews already larger than in previous times because of=20
reductions in shipboard automation), creating even more cramped
conditions for personnel.  In Imperial times, it was not unusual for a
typical petty officer to have their own small stateroom.  In the
post-Collapse era, such accommodations would be considered luxurious, as
small staterooms are routinely shared, and many lower ranking crew
members on larger warships sleep on bunks.  Terran Republic naval
designers have avoided much of the problem by relying on master fire
directors to control secondary weaponry instead of having crews
routinely man every turret or barbette.  While this means that ship=92s
compliment on a Terran Republic naval vessel crews is smaller than it
would otherwise have to be, the reliance on master fire directors means
that if for some reason a MFD goes down without a backup, there are not
enough free crew on board to control all the guns and fire them
individually.  The Terrans have learned to compensate for this partially
by giving all Naval Security personnel at least some rudimentary
training in ship=92s gunnery.  While they are generally poor substitutes
for full time gunners, they can keep a large percentage of a ship=92s
weaponry functional until the MFD can be repaired, or the ship can
escape.

   When designing vessels for the Terran Republic Navy or Terran
Republic civilian craft, take into account the additional weapons their
ships routinely carry.

- --end--

   E-mail me direct or post here.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:39:57 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #852

>Here's my rule of thumb for funky things GM's can do with multi-drives,
>misjumps, etc...
[SNIP]
>
>3. Major rift in space-time.  GM decides which sector, or even QUADRANT you
>end up in. Aka wormhole.
>
>4. Temporal Displacement. Time travel forward or back, GM's whim
>
>5. Traped in a alternate dimention, laws of physics slightly off kilter(i.e.
>magic exists). Or a alternate history (ala "Sliders") universe.
>
>6. Temporal and Spacial Displacement.  Arive back at the big bang, encounter
>the 4th Imperium, witness the assaination of Strephon, again....
>
>These are merely suggestions, I dont think a single one is cannon anywhere,
>but when you gotta wing it...

May I humbly discourage GMs from using effects like these. Take it from my
personal experience that any rulings which result in repeatable
time/reality alterations will quickly overwhelm the game to such an extent
is will no longer be recognisable. I'm not saying it would be a bad game,
depending on the referee, but it will no longer be a Traveller game. There
have been a few games (like Time Lords and GURPS Time Travel) which have
rules to deal with these situations, but Traveller does not, nor is time
travel part of the Third Imperial canon.

When you "wing it" I suggest to keep a few principles in mind:

1. The players are not the only beings in the universe. Anything the
players do will probably have been done thousands of times by thousands of
other people in history. There must be a reason any strange effect is not
well-known and used (it could be lethal, ineffective, or has side effects
the standard methods do not have).

2. The players typically have far less resources than other parties like
the Imperium, megacorporations, or military forces. If new effects require
large amounts of cash, equipment, study, or effort then large forces like
the Imperium will have the benefit of these effects far more than players.

3. Most players are extremely capable in using previous rulings to their
advantage in new circumstances. Hasty GMs can quickly find their campaign
'unravelling' because of some spur-of-the-moment ruling.

4. I find it unnecessary to resort to "alternate dimensions" or laws of
physics to get unusual environments or encounters. The Third Imperium is a
large and varied place, there is plenty of room in it for alternate
histories or new rules. For example; a backwater TL 6 world where a fascist
state conquered the other democratic nations and was able to implement its
xenophobic racial plans. A TL 3 planet with a dangerous reptilian carnivore
and an underground trade in high-tech equipment. The carnivore is able to
fly through a combination of psionics and methane production, and can expel
burning gouts of methane through its mouth. The high-tech equipment is
controlled by a secret society of scholars which portray its effects as
supernatural.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:28:50 -0800
From: "Douglas" <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

> From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves
> Date: Thursday, January 16, 1997 10:14 PM

[snip] 

> If ship hulls are made of superdense, would they vacuum weld?  They are
> collapsed down to their electon shells, and possibly chemically inert
> because of that.  In lieu of that idea, would a superdense surface be
> virtually frictionless-now there is an idea for a new Traveller melee
> weapon.

While the hull may be of a superdense material, the fittings would not be. 
Hatches, valves and the like would be of normal materials.  Can you imagine
trying to open a superdense hatch, especially a floor/ceiling type?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:44:29 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Starship Combat

John Kovalic asked:
>PS. Am I the only person who thinks Traveller could use a Full Thrust-like
>starship combat system? Something more complax than Mayday, a bit easier
>than Battle Rider, and more playable than both? The playability is really
>the big thing. Something people would seek out because it's a good game,
>not just because it's a Traveller game.

Some of the CORE members have been working on a ship combat system which
involves more role-playing, i.e. better player interaction, without the
complexity of something like Battle Rider. I believe there are several such
projects (on GDW-Beta?) to get combat at various levels of complexity. Which
(if any) are finally brought out as products by IG is as yet to be decided.
If they don't get official recognition, I should imagine they'll appear on a
web site anyway or perhaps BITS will be able to publish them.

Andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:04:09 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: To Punctuate or Not

Sorry Jeff,

I'll try better next time, English is only my first language after all, and
some of the french and other nationalities are doing better than I am.

Although I seem to have sparked a major debate over who can be an idiot in
the forces, nobody seems to have answered my questions, i.e. has anyone
attempted to convert BAB5 to T4 milleu 0, and why on earch was commando
school changed from a special mission, to only Honour Graduates from
Millitary Academy can attempt entry, which effectivly means you have no
non-commissioned officers who are Commando's as you automatically get O1
for graduating with honours from the military academy.

At this point I should state that I spent from Sept 11 1979 till March 3rd
1985 in Her Majestys Armed Forces (Army) Royal Signals at the dizzy lows of
private, (before I'm corrected the correct term is Signalman). 


Colin Hollands	
Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
MIS Europe & Africa Region
Phone:	0171 413 3413
Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 97 11:30 GMT
From: walker@esc.cam.ac.uk (Greg Walker)
Subject: Re: Science of Fusion Power Plants (long, gearhead oriented)+ superdense swords?

the stress on the containment vessel is in part due to the magnetic field.
the ratio between the gas pressure to magnetic pressure is 1:10 in JET I think.


power generation: try the MHD turbine.
current ideas are to tap off a streamer from the plasma, and throw it into a MHD generator. pity it uses plasma rather than just the alphas.

lanthanum: unlikely... the plasma is hot, so radiates in the UV and higher. and the power radiated out of the plasma goes up as the square of the atomic number. current systems cannot cope with carbon or oxygen contaminants. lanthanum would be at least 100 time worse, at Tl 9-?. Only use if it's part of a gravitry confinement.
carbon is used. Beryllium is even better from that view point, but is toxic.

low temperature would be best. thermodynamics mode on, stuff radiates as T^4 I think. so dropping down to a stellar temperature means you can drop the heating requirement by 10^-4.
On the other hand structural failure could be bad.


hatches of superdense : the advantage of SD is their strength goes up in comparison to both volume and density. surely it would weigh less than a normal hatch, and look like a rigid sheet of cooking foil? any edge of it could cut easily, not good for anybody in a spacesuit. try it as a sword insted ;-))

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:22:29 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: The "We Love DGP" Fan Club is announced!

Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk> wrote:
(Snip, snip, snip)
>...too many people are *hoping* that things like this will happen
>when they're not going to. If anyone wants to make a difference to Traveller
>then it's going to be up to *them* to do it. I didn't sit down at my
>terminal 2-3 years ago and wait, hoping that someone would create a UK-based
>internet group dedicated to Traveller, which would allow me to buy
(Snip lots of things)
>happening at IG, to give them product reviews, etc.), etc., etc.

        Forgive me, Andy, but you have to recognize that things were *a bit*
easier for you than for other european people. The difference of languages
keeps the number of traveller afficionados out of the British Islands quite
low. In my country, I doubt there are more than one dozen of CT/MT/TNE refs
(and, to my knowledge, I am the only one with T4). I know the situation is
not spectacularly better at Germany. Austria is almost a Traveller-free
zone. And so on.
        In fact, I would like to ask you a question. Is BITS open to non-UK
people? And, can CORE distribute CT/MT/T4 products in Europe? ;-)

>I'd probably still be sitting waiting if I hadn't done it myself.
>
        Point taken. You are totally right. In fact, I loved the old DGP's
stuff, and after I finally accepted that those products were not going to
continue (sniffff), I decided to do something about it, on a purely personal
level. I am writing an Alien Module (The Geonee) to my personal use that
probably I will non-commercially distribute in one way or another. An
advance (that timeline) is already on the net. As soon as I manage to obtain
a bit of time, more parts will be put to the consideration of the TML.

>Now I'd be willing to bet that I have a lot less free time than many people
>on this list. Just FYI:
        (Snip lots of activities)

        Well, I must admit I am impressed. You have a couple more
occupations than me, and still time to be Traveller-active? Please, tell me
the secret ;-)

>* I created BITS, which is now approaching 200 members in the UK and
(Snip)
>* I created CORE, which publishes 3 licensed printed products for the new
(Snip)
>Needless to say, BITS and CORE have required a SUBSTANTIAL investment of my
>personal time and money. TLWH might be a much revered product but it will

        Money is the problem :-(. I cannot speak for anybody else, but I
doubt that many people can afford the initial investment needed for creating
a company. I considered the idea some time ago, but the first thing we will
need would be the rights for a translation of Traveller products, starting
with MT (oops, now it would be T4). If I am completely mistaken about the
amount of such an investment, please correct me.

>However, could I HUMBLY suggest that for something like this DGP thing you
>say "I wish we could have back the same writers/artists" or "Have any of the
>current DGP 'team' written any Traveller stuff we can look at", etc. Saying
>that you wish that the *current* DGP was back writing Traveller stuff, and
>implying that this would automatically return Traveller to those halcyon
>days can be very misleading to the newbies on the list.

        I agree with you completely, but I do not think old DGP-fans want
new DGP-style products to have the letters D.G.P. stamped on them. I think
that there is just a claim stating "hey, that was the BEST style I ever saw
in a Traveller product". I also agree with this, and I my HUMBLE suggestion
is that all writers, commercial or not, should take this little bit of info
into account. That does not mean to imitate, just to consider those old
products as a benchmark. Thats what I am doing with the Geonee... I would
submit it to YOU when I finish it! ;-)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                          (34) 6 5903614
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      Fax: (34) 6 5903685
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 08:25:48 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <diemos@ican.net>
Subject: Fusion and neutrinos

Another point in favour of proton chain fusion is neutrinos.  We know
that fusion plants give off neutrinos, because you can see them with
neutrino sensors.  SOM talks about this a bit.  Neutrinos mean there
are weak interactions going on.  While you'd get a few from neutron
and tritium decay in a D + T reactor, you'd get far, far more in a
H + H situation where every neutron you make gives you a neutrino.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #854
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 17 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 855



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Retirement Pay
Jump Wierdnesses.
Re: Retirement Pay
White Dwarf stars and safe jump distance question
Idea for IG to get rich
Novae / Neutron star systems ?
Kuiper Belt Info
Writing Traveller Stuff
Re: To Punctuate or Not
Re: To Punctuate or Not
Re: Writing Traveller Stuff
Re: DGP IS DEAD, FOSS BASHING
Re: Fusion and neutrinos
Re: Traveller/BAB5
Re: Fusion and neutrinos
Re: Writing Traveller Stuff
Re: Fusion and neutrinos
Re: Neutrino Sensors

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:44:19 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Retirement Pay

There is an article with a "fix" (completely unofficial, of course!) in
Dark Star #2 ... allows Officers to retire on better benefits as well as
some wrinkles for all retirees. Of course, the problem is, that Dark Star
is not generally available except as previously noted on this list.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 09:07:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Jump Wierdnesses.

The Following is a response to:


From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #852

>>Here's my rule of thumb for funky things GM's can do with multi-drives,
>>misjumps, etc...
>[SNIP]
>
>>3. Major rift in space-time.  GM decides which sector, or even QUADRANT 
you
>>end up in. Aka wormhole.
>>
>>4. Temporal Displacement. Time travel forward or back, GM's whim
>>
>>5. Traped in a alternate dimention, laws of physics slightly off 
kilter(i.e.
>>magic exists). Or a alternate history (ala "Sliders") universe.
>
>>6. Temporal and Spacial Displacement.  Arive back at the big bang, 
encounter
>>the 4th Imperium, witness the assaination of Strephon, again....
>>
>>These are merely suggestions, I dont think a single one is cannon 
anywhere,
>>but when you gotta wing it...

>May I humbly discourage GMs from using effects like these. Take it from my
>personal experience that any rulings which result in repeatable
>time/reality alterations will quickly overwhelm the game to such an extent
>is will no longer be recognisable. I'm not saying it would be a bad game,
>depending on the referee, but it will no longer be a Traveller game. There
>have been a few games (like Time Lords and GURPS Time Travel) which have
>rules to deal with these situations, but Traveller does not, nor is time
>travel part of the Third Imperial canon.

Yes, thank you Richard for pointing that out.  You snipped the first 2 
suggestions tho, and the list is in order of rarity.  Boom first, then 
Standard Misjump, then Major Misjump.  Altering Space-Time is suggested if 
you have a seroius campain idea for your group and is reccomened for 
experienced GM's and Players alike.

>When you "wing it" I suggest to keep a few principles in mind:

>1. The players are not the only beings in the universe. Anything the
>players do will probably have been done thousands of times by thousands of
>other people in history. There must be a reason any strange effect is not
>well-known and used (it could be lethal, ineffective, or has side effects
>the standard methods do not have).

>2. The players typically have far less resources than other parties like
>the Imperium, megacorporations, or military forces. If new effects require
>large amounts of cash, equipment, study, or effort then large forces like
>the Imperium will have the benefit of these effects far more than players.

Agreed, most of the major suggestions (4-6) are for those adventures where 
the PC's are not the owners/users of the tech, rather their patron, a wacky 
scientist or cunning CEO wants the PC's to "test" it (heh, heh...)

>3. Most players are extremely capable in using previous rulings to their
>advantage in new circumstances. Hasty GMs can quickly find their campaign
>'unravelling' because of some spur-of-the-moment ruling.

Agreed, PC's do take advantage of the GM's rulings, this is why the GM's 
must rule this as a random effect that no one can predict.  And Ultimately, 
It is the GM's decision.  Another reason I suggest this for experienced GM's 
AND Players.

>4. I find it unnecessary to resort to "alternate dimensions" or laws of
>physics to get unusual environments or encounters. The Third Imperium is a
>large and varied place, there is plenty of room in it for alternate
>histories or new rules. For example; a backwater TL 6 world where a fascist
>state conquered the other democratic nations and was able to implement its
>xenophobic racial plans. A TL 3 planet with a dangerous reptilian carnivore
>and an underground trade in high-tech equipment. The carnivore is able to
>fly through a combination of psionics and methane production, and can expel
>burning gouts of methane through its mouth. The high-tech equipment is
>controlled by a secret society of scholars which portray its effects as
>supernatural.

Actualy, I did something like this at a con a while back.  The PC"s 
crashlanded on a world ruled by "Wizard-Kinges"  One patron on this world 
requested the PC's retrieve a "Fire Staff" from a rival "wizard".  Wizards 
were hi-lev psions and the firestaff was a FGMP-21. So Clarke's law does 
apply.

I think the Alternate Dimention thing is one of the toughest things to 
create for any Sci-Fi game, it would have to be very very VERY rare for PC's 
to crack into one.  Imagine a universe where Light doest travel in a 
straight line, gravity is fatutzed, or Grandfather forbid, an antimater 
universe!
(Use only if you REALY hate your PC's!)

Again Thanks to Richard Hough, for pointing out these facts.  I hope this 
has helped to clairify(or confuse further) what one can do, and must 
concider, when messing around with J-drives.

Moral of this story:  "If they stupid blow they up, if they smart (or 
lucky), Misjump 'em!"

Commander X
CEO X-TEK Industries, Count of Planet X
and part time Pira...er...Privateer.
 -----------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 09:13:28 -0500 (EST)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Retirement Pay

>The one point that has always seemed off, and they tried to fix it in =
>TNE, is retirement pay.  A private retiring gets the same pay as Fleet =
>commander.  Does everyone get the same pay in their careers despite =
>rank?  I can see the desire for a simple character generation system but =
>there should be some kinda modifier for the different ranks.  Anybody =
>had ideas for this?

I multiply it by their rank number, i.e. pay grade.  O5= gets 5x, etc.  It can
add up to a lot of cash, but somehow I don't see the Imperium being too stingy
with its retired Naval Captains, Generals, Admirals, and the like.

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:30:09 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: White Dwarf stars and safe jump distance question

Maybe i'm boring you with my stars questions, but i've another one.

The 100 diameter safe jump distance seem to be a gross approximation. A
gravity well depends on the mass of a body, and the mass depends on the size
and the density of this body. Assuming that all usual bodies have the same
average density (around 1g/cm3 for most of stars and gas giant and around 5
for rocky planets), the radius is the only changing parameter (Yes, this is
very gross approximation).

White dwarfs have the mass of the sun for a radius of 1/70 Rsun (again this
is an approximation). The density of this rocky stars is around 300Kg/cm3.
The range factor is not the same as above. 

So IMO, the 100 diameter Safe jump should be multiblied by a density factor
just to get 'dead stars flavor'. I suggest this factor could be around 100,000. 

Because, this is not the precise value which is important, but the white
dwarf star different factor density, this factor could be lowerd for
convienience.


What about that?

 
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 09:41:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Idea for IG to get rich

OK, so I got this message in may mailbox this morning...

Forwarded message:
> From: Kishor Khankari <kishor@gate-basil.inres.com>
> Subject: My name ?
> X-URL: http://www.magmacom.com/~ehenry/traveller/vland.html
> 
> Hi
> I am surprised to see my last name in your list. Can you please explain
> me what is Vland and how my name appeared there?
> Thanks
> 
> Kishor Khankari

It seems that Khankari is a system in the Vland sector, a copy
of which I have up as part of my subsector viewing program...

THis gives me an idea for IG - they should allow people to buy systems
and have them named after them! I wonder if First Survey have gone to
the printers yet...

"Ok, so we're on our way to Lilly, where we pick up the Duchess, then
it's Jump-2 to Heck and another Jump-2 to Zetlin... hey, is that
system really called Planet-X ???"

Ethan, resident of Core/Henry 6191 A777011-G

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:45:00 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Novae / Neutron star systems ?

I would like your opinion/knowledge about some points.


1- When White dwarf is close to a red giant star, a novae effect might occur
by transfering mass from the 'cold' giant star to the hot white dwarf
surface. What, is the probability of occurence in such an association, and
what should be the effects on the planetarty system? BTW, can a novae occure
more than one time?

2- Does a neutron star have a planetary system?

3- With a presence of another star, to provide light, which would be the
effect of a neutron star in a system (let's say this is a far binary
system)? (Pulsar effect?)

Thanks in advance
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:31:44 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
Subject: Kuiper Belt Info

Hi,
I was reading the November issue of the Astronomical Journal the other
day and came across some info that might be interesting to some people.
The article was by Luu & Jewitt and they estimate that there are
35,000 kuiper belt objects with a radius greather than 50km.
These objects are at distances from the sun ranging from 30-50AU, with
a 10AU spread in height.  They also say they have a newer estimate
which doubles the number, but also doubles the volume that they are 
spread over.  The do not say if the extra volume comes from more height
or a farther radial distribution.

Another thing they talk about is destruction of kuiper objects.  They
refere to Kawakami et al 1983 J. Geophy. Res. Vol 88 pg 5806
Kawakami et al preformed lab experiments which show that it requires
50Joules/ kg to completly destroy an icy body.  \
They do not say if this is turning the Kuiper object into a gas or
just disrupting it enough so that it doesn't reform, but I would
assume the later.

Just thought this might be useful to the Asteroid hull question and
the refueling in the Kuiper Belt debate.

Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:17:54 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Writing Traveller Stuff

I thought I should reply to a couple of Carlos Alos-Ferrer
<alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>'s points on my [The "We Love DGP" Fan Club is
announced!] message:

>        Forgive me, Andy, but you have to recognize that things were *a bit*
>easier for you than for other european people. The difference of languages
>keeps the number of traveller afficionados out of the British Islands quite
>low.

Yes, that's very true. My posting was rather generic so please forgive me
not considering such specifics.

>Is BITS open to non-UK
>people? And, can CORE distribute CT/MT/T4 products in Europe? ;-)

European yes. The CORE web page (http://members.nova.org/~sol/core) gives
some pricing details; post costs will look high because they're based on
overseas air mail; please determine what you'd like to order then e-mail me
and I'll work out if the postage costs should be less.

>>Now I'd be willing to bet that I have a lot less free time than many people
>>on this list. Just FYI:
>        (Snip lots of activities)
>        Well, I must admit I am impressed. You have a couple more
>occupations than me, and still time to be Traveller-active? Please, tell me
>the secret ;-)

I work to live, not vice-versa, I made sure my PhD was on stuff that I'd be
paid to work on until near the end of the PhD and I don't bother spending
much time on preparation for the RPGs! I'm sure none of my players have
noticed apart from the other referee in the group who always sarcastically
asks me at the start of each game if I've actually decided yet which
scenario I'm going to run (whether it's Traveller or AD&D).

>>Needless to say, BITS and CORE have required a SUBSTANTIAL investment of my
>>personal time and money.

>        Money is the problem :-(. I cannot speak for anybody else, but I
>doubt that many people can afford the initial investment needed for creating

Starting the company isn't costly. The main cost was producing TLWH, since
with a print run of only 200 (are these going to become collectable or
what?!) and my fixed desire for a colour cover, the production costs were
plain silly. That's why it's only available mail order from BITS because the
distributors and retailers wouldn't get more than a few percent of the cover
price! :-)

If you don't have some spare cash that you're willing to throw at a project
like this (face it, I only did it because I always wanted to and I knew I'd
always regret it if I didn't at least TRY), then I'd advocate simply writing
stuff and submitting it (JTAS, CORE, IG, whoever); that's still a good way
of supporting Traveller and if you start getting paid and your name gets
known then you might be able to make a go of a company.

>need would be the rights for a translation of Traveller products, starting

Rights are a sticky business. I think I can honestly say that if my gamble
on the TLWH had been a flop, IG wouldn't have taken us particularly
seriously so we wouldn't now be talking to IG about writing some of their
products for them. I saw the market niche (i.e. that one would need an
introductory Milieu 0 adventure to go with the release of the rulebook) but
overall I think we *were* just lucky to do as well as we have.

>that there is just a claim stating "hey, that was the BEST style I ever saw
>in a Traveller product". I also agree with this, and I my HUMBLE suggestion
>is that all writers, commercial or not, should take this little bit of info
>into account.

I would be the first to admit that the general principles of TLWH are based
on the DGP adventures. I think that has been a major influence on its
successfulness. I've used similar nugget-based principles for all the
adventures I've submitted to the Traveller Chronicle and Signal-GK. David
Burden (who originated the majority of TLWH's adventure sections) also
prefers that style so it made it easier for us. A general comment on that
style is that it allows you to divide the adventure up into lots of sections
which not only makes it easier to run but also to write. A bit like modular
software, really! Since I'm primarily a software person, I like the approach!

The 101 books are a different approach, consisting mainly of the innovative
plot ideas that Jo and Lesley Grant have thought out. On average, it takes
me a lot longer to edit and lay out the 101 books than it does for Jo and
Lesley to produce all those plot ideas! Between us, and the other writers
who have since joined CORE, we have a wide variety of writing talents which
will hopefully continue to provide you with quality Traveller products.

However, I'm already dreading the first TML reviews of Milieu 0... I'd
better start lining up the excuses... er, IG only gave us 3 weeks to do it,
er, so we needed 7 people on it, er, Jo Grant and I were away in the middle
running the OrkCon stand for IG (ok, so Jo had written his 20-odd pages
about 15 seconds after we were given the job!)... er, the other writers only
joined when we got the job, we never had a fixed contract, we only had vague
guidelines, one of us disappeared, another stepped in at the last minute,
er, er... I think I'll just go hide in a bunker for a few weeks and let Joe
Walsh take the shi... er I mean praise.

Andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 09:52:13 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: To Punctuate or Not

At 11:04 AM 1/17/97 +0000, Colin Hollands wrote:

>and why on earch was commando
>school changed from a special mission, to only Honour Graduates from
>Millitary Academy can attempt entry, which effectivly means you have no
>non-commissioned officers who are Commando's as you automatically get O1
>for graduating with honours from the military academy.

This has become a GM/player call during character generation.  If you want
your Gunnery sergeant to be the Third Imperium's answer to a Ranger, spend
the majority of his skill rolls on the Educational and Career skill tables.
If you want Sgt Bilko, use the Social and Mental tables, etc.

This is my preferred method of skill generation, since it allows the player
to direct the direction of his training while still keeping a random element.

I beleieve that the Commando School option for Army Officers is supposed to
be a training tour with the Marines!  The young officer learns a bit about
the Imperial forces and picks up some useful skills and contacts.  This bit
is specific to my campaign, where the "Army" is actually each world's
defence force, of which 10% is avalible to the Imperium at any point.

>At this point I should state that I spent from Sept 11 1979 till March 3rd
>1985 in Her Majestys Armed Forces (Army) Royal Signals at the dizzy lows of
>private, (before I'm corrected the correct term is Signalman).

I was a bullet catcher.  11-Bravo, Light Weapons Infantry 

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   If I die and go to heaven, I will do what all     |
|  San Francicans do... I'll look around, and say to  |
|  St. Peter "it's nice, but it ain't San Francisco"  |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:51:48 +0000
From: D Jones <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: To Punctuate or Not

At 11.04 17/01/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Sorry Jeff,
>
<snip>
>
>At this point I should state that I spent from Sept 11 1979 till March 3rd
>1985 in Her Majestys Armed Forces (Army) Royal Signals at the dizzy lows of
>private, (before I'm corrected the correct term is Signalman). 
>
>
>Colin Hollands	
>Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
>MIS Europe & Africa Region
>Phone:	0171 413 3413
>Fax:	0171 257 6369
>
Actually, Jeff, the term is (now) signaller...
It changed in 1992 ish..
BTW me too. I was a signalman in 1992, 
got to dizzy heights of lancejack before fumbling my promotion roll! and ending
up as a signaller!!!

It does take brains to be a Para, btw, there's a big pile of them just
outside a certain place SSE of London.!!!

Certa Cito.

Del

<bulls***ty military mode off..! - thank God I'm a civvy!>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:59:15 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Writing Traveller Stuff

On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Andy Lilly wrote:

> However, I'm already dreading the first TML reviews of Milieu 0... I'd
> better start lining up the excuses... er, IG only gave us 3 weeks to do it,
> er, so we needed 7 people on it, er, Jo Grant and I were away in the middle
> running the OrkCon stand for IG (ok, so Jo had written his 20-odd pages
> about 15 seconds after we were given the job!)... er, the other writers only
> joined when we got the job, we never had a fixed contract, we only had vague
> guidelines, one of us disappeared, another stepped in at the last minute,
> er, er... I think I'll just go hide in a bunker for a few weeks and let Joe
> Walsh take the shi... er I mean praise.

Thanks, Andy, you're a real pal. =)

Perhaps some folks would be interested in a more serious look at what 
happened.

'Way back when T4 was just a twinkle in someone's eye, Andy Lilly and I 
each got in touch with Ken Whitman (separately) about getting some sort 
of licensing agreement so we could each (separately) produce and sell 
Traveller products.  We were promised this many times, but as the months 
went by we never did receive it.

Along about August or so, Jo Grant got in touch with me, because I'd said 
something about wanting to produce Traveller products, in one of my posts 
to TML.  Jo said that he had plans to do the same, and that he'd hooked 
up with Andy Lilly.  So, I joined up with a group that already included 
David Burden, Andy Lilly, and Jo Grant.  

We made some modest plans for what to do in the future.  With no 
licensing agreement, perhaps we would try Gold Rush Games or Sword of the 
Knight.

Then along came Ken Whitman with a project for us: Write the M0 
manuscript (using the outline posted to TML by MWM) in three weeks.  Of 
course, we jumped at the chance. =)

But it meant bringing on some more people, especially since Jo and Andy 
would be out of touch for most of that 3 weeks.  So, at Ken's 
suggestion, we asked Dave Golden to join us.  I brought in Michael Barry, 
because he had asked me a few weeks previously to include him in any 
writing projects that may come up, if possible.  Andy brought in David 
Elrick.  We divvied up the M0 outline, and set to work.

Two days before the deadline, we heard from Dave Golden. He hadn't done 
any work, and he wouldn't be doing any.  "Huh?"  Yeah, that's not the 
sort of person Dave is - he would never wait until the last minute.  We 
were doing all this over the Internet, remember.  Dave had sent a message 
about being unable to join the project a couple days after we 
started...only it never got to Andy, and it never bounced either.  So, 
Dave figured we knew all along that he wouldn't be part of the 
project...but we didn't.  Suddenly, we needed 1/7 of the work done in 2 
days! 

Enter Stu Dollar.  I begged and pleaded with him to help us out, and he 
was gracious enough to do so (his wife Suz had been editing my own 
efforts right along, so I asked her to wheedle him a little, too; he's a 
reluctant sort when it comes to writing RPG material (not!<G>)).  In 2 
days, he did the job, and his wife edited it.  So...

...We got it done on time, and it looks like a damned fine manuscript to 
me (but then, I'm a little biased<G>).  We sent it off to AP&D, for Les 
Smith to edit.  I hope Les didn't change much, if anything; I truly 
believe the original manuscript is great (tho there are some punctuation 
problems and whatnot, given that we didn't have enough time to get rid of 
the last dozen or so grammar errors).  

Hopefully, you'll all like the book.  But, if not, please remember the 
time constraint we were under! :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 06:26:24 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: DGP IS DEAD, FOSS BASHING

> Even should DGP be licensed to *re-*print their stuff, don't expect to see
> *new* material from them

Why not?


> This posting is intended to remedy the strange glazing over of the eyes
> (shortly followed by loss of all common sense and then brain death) that
> affects anyone mentioning the name "DGP" on this list. Take one pink pill a
> day and repeat 100 times "It's not the same DGP."

OK, so they're not.  Let's give Roger and his crew a chance before we 
write them off.

If DGP get's their Traveller license renewed, I think that we have 
every reason in the world to expect new Traveller product from them.

And, just because it is not the same people as the old DGP does not 
mean that the DGP products won't be any good.  We have nothing to 
look at  this time to make that evaluation.

I say, let's get behind Roger in the hopes that he can turn out the 
fantastic Traveller products that DGP has turned out in the past.

Besides, a fourth company productin Traveller items can be nothing 
but good for the game.  The more T4 stuff produced, the more exposure 
the game gets.

And I'm all for that.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:54:57 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Fusion and neutrinos

On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Doug Sinclair wrote:

> Another point in favour of proton chain fusion is neutrinos.  We know
> that fusion plants give off neutrinos, because you can see them with
> neutrino sensors.  SOM talks about this a bit.  Neutrinos mean there
> are weak interactions going on.  While you'd get a few from neutron
> and tritium decay in a D + T reactor, you'd get far, far more in a
> H + H situation where every neutron you make gives you a neutrino.
> 
My recollection was that scientifically neutrino sensors are hogwash.  Can
anyone back me up on this?  I dropped Neutrino sensors long ago because of
this.

I can't remember now whether the particles are so few and far between or
that there is an overwhelming amount of "background" radiation to sense
against.

Someone help!

Pete 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:31:18 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller/BAB5

> Two things has anybody attempted yet to convert BAB5 to T4, i'd be
> interested in this, a friend of mine is trying to create the NAAN at the
> moment,

Why do you want to go to all the work of conversion, Colin, when the 
B5 game is due out any time?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:14:23 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion and neutrinos

Hi Pete,

> On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Doug Sinclair wrote:
> 
> My recollection was that scientifically neutrino sensors are hogwash.  Can
> anyone back me up on this?  I dropped Neutrino sensors long ago because of
> this.
> 
> I can't remember now whether the particles are so few and far between or
> that there is an overwhelming amount of "background" radiation to sense
> against.
> 
> Someone help!

Neutrino sensors consist of humongously large pools of water or cleaning
fluid usualy underground to shielf from other particle interactions.
Neutrinos are exceedingly hard to interact with, they just go zipping
right through normal matter. Consider a photon in the interior of the
sun can take in excess .25M years to reach the surface (drunkards walk)
while a neutrino does it at c (in vacuo).

Neutrino 'cascades' are accepted by astronomers as a good way to search
for nova and similar hi-energy extra-terrestrial events.


                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:58:34 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Writing Traveller Stuff

> Enter Stu Dollar.  I begged and pleaded with him to help us out, and he 
> was gracious enough to do so (his wife Suz had been editing my own 
> efforts right along, so I asked her to wheedle him a little, too; he's a 
> reluctant sort when it comes to writing RPG material (not!<G>)).  In 2 
> days, he did the job, and his wife edited it.  So...

Uh-huh, sure, fine, make me the scapegoat for the editing.  I'll 
remember this as I GM the PBeM game you're in <g>

> ...We got it done on time, and it looks like a damned fine manuscript to 
> me (but then, I'm a little biased<G>).  We sent it off to AP&D, for Les 
> Smith to edit.  I hope Les didn't change much, if anything; I truly 
> believe the original manuscript is great (tho there are some punctuation 
> problems and whatnot, given that we didn't have enough time to get rid of 
> the last dozen or so grammar errors).  
> 
> Hopefully, you'll all like the book.  But, if not, please remember the 
> time constraint we were under! :)

Joe is on his way to earning the title Master Worrier, in case no one 
has  noticed.  The CORE team did an amzing job in the time they had.  
I'm looking forward to seeing a real live printed copy!

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:26:43 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Fusion and neutrinos

Every star in the universe produces neutrinos, which basically don't
interact with normal matter.   You need big tanks of stuff just to get
one or two interactions-not a good sensor system, right?

Thats basically shat FFS said-but it was VERY short sighted.  We have no
gravity control today, yet it exists in Trav.  We have no superdense
today, yet it exists in Trav.  And we most certainly don't have any jump
drive today-yet it EXISTS in 5700AD.

Neutrinos don't interact because of their lack of electrical charge(like
neutrons) and very small cross sections.  They pass through the 99.9%
space gaps in normal matter.  Superdense is a different matter...sorry
about the pun there;)  Neutrinos will interact a lot more with it,
theoretically.  So then you can see the nearly infinite flood of them
that exist in the universe!  How so you see a tiny little ship reactor?  

Remove the ambient known sources, leaving the unknowns on the sensor. 
Farafetched?  Impossible?  If we knew how to do this we would be TL13!


Me no undrstand lightining-not usful 'cept start fire!
Anonymous Caveman

Tom Lane

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:58:04 -0600
From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Subject: Re: Neutrino Sensors

Peter  H. Brenton <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu> wrote:

> My recollection was that scientifically neutrino sensors are
> hogwash.  Can anyone back me up on this?  I dropped Neutrino
> sensors long ago because of this.

Down on the Ice at McMurdo, the Cosmic Ray Annex houses "cosmic ray
sensors" of some sort. I don't recall the exact particles being
studied, but something in the back of my mind wants to say
"neutrinos".

Sensor data is printed out by a paper tape puncher! Ever see what a
million bits really looks like?


> I can't remember now whether the particles are so few and far
> between or that there is an overwhelming amount of "background"
> radiation to sense against.

The cosmic ray sensors are encased in blocks of concrete. I also 
recall that "recording" cosmic rays is difficult because they are few 
and far between.

I can check my sources when my contacts are back on the Ice for the 
winter.

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@NASCRAG.ORG

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #855
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 17 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 856



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fusion and neutrinos
Re: Writing Traveller Stuff
Re: Fusion and neutrinos
Re: Fusion and neutrinos 
Re: Fusion and neutrinos
Re: Fusion and neutrinos
Re: Vacuum welding
MM's involvement with T4
Re: MM's involvement with T4
Re: Melee weapons
Re: Age of TML members : JTAS vote
Re: empty owner-traveller@phaser.mgpn.com messages
YIKES!!
FSA KMA-G2 2.5mm Hypervelocity Gauss SMG
Re: Vacuum welding
Neutrinos for fun and profit
Re: Retirement Pay
Re: Traveller/BAB5
Re: For immediate feedback
Re: YIKES!!
RE: Retirement pay....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:02:50 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Fusion and neutrinos

Doug Sinclair wrote:
> 
> Another point in favour of proton chain fusion is neutrinos.  We know
> that fusion plants give off neutrinos, because you can see them with
> neutrino sensors.  SOM talks about this a bit.  Neutrinos mean there
> are weak interactions going on.  While you'd get a few from neutron
> and tritium decay in a D + T reactor, you'd get far, far more in a
> H + H situation where every neutron you make gives you a neutrino.

I agree!
The problem is sorting the relevant trace particles( of an emnemy ships
reactor) from ambient background neutrinos.  I think that will be
resolves if the basic technology exists.  See my other post on fusion,
PPchain.  This stuff about neutrino sensors being useless is INCREDIBLY
shortshighted.

SUPERDENSE MATTERIS THE ANSWER TO ALL THE WORLDS PROBLEMS!!!!
BUY MORE SUPERDENSE!!!(works good in frying pans, too!)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:44:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Writing Traveller Stuff

On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Suzette C. Dollar wrote:

> Uh-huh, sure, fine, make me the scapegoat for the editing.  I'll 
> remember this as I GM the PBeM game you're in <g>

Did I forget to mention that Suz is the best editor I've ever 
encountered?  And that she's got a sweet disposition?  And smart, 
generous, honest, MERCIFUL . . . <G>


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:39:54 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Fusion and neutrinos

On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Tom Lane wrote:
> SUPERDENSE MATTERIS THE ANSWER TO ALL THE WORLDS PROBLEMS!!!!
> BUY MORE SUPERDENSE!!!(works good in frying pans, too!)
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What *would* the specific heat of superdense material be?  Wouldn't you
have to leave a superdense frying pan on the burner *forever* to get the
darn thing hot enough to cook on, and then let it cool over for just as
long, afterwards?  And deftly flipping your flap-jacks, with a quick flip
of the wrist, would be tough, if the frying pan had a mass of several
hundred kilograms...
                                                           - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:56:41 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion and neutrinos 

 "What *would* the specific heat of superdense material be?  Wouldn't you
  have to leave a superdense frying pan on the burner *forever* to get the
  darn thing hot enough to cook on, and then let it cool over for just as
  long, afterwards?  And deftly flipping your flap-jacks, with a quick flip
  of the wrist, would be tough, if the frying pan had a mass of several
  hundred kilograms..."

VERY THIN SHEETS of superdense material?...

Earl Wajenberg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:22:15 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Fusion and neutrinos

Ahhh-but you just use an atomically thin layer of SUPERdense-s'all ya
need!  
As to its theoretical heating properties, doooooo, I don't know!?!

TML, anyone have an idea about how dwarf star matter(superdense) would
conduct heat.  I know BOSE_EINSTEIN consdenates are really wierd.  Not
sure if superdense is one.  

BTW, this all has to do with quantum mechanics.  As I recall from my
physics days, before I became a brain dead bus driver, pretty odd and
mathematical.

Tom Lane

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:28:38 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Fusion and neutrinos

VERY THIN SHEETS of superdense material?...
> 
> Earl Wajenberg


Yeah, that's the ticket-and one not addressed very well in FFS.

These technloogies are really far beyond us tecnically, but not
unimaginable.

Could superdense be kept in form without intense grav fields?  Could a
man breath in a car going over the ludicrous speed of 20mph?  I'm not
certain, but I'll bet 3000 years from now our ancestors might know
better.  Or somebody elses ancestors...

How could you possibly use the undying sun to kill someone with?
Ancient dead Egyptinan dude

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:22:00 -0800
From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
Subject: Re: Vacuum welding

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:49:25 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

bri wrote:
> 
> At 08:12 PM 1/16/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >bri wrote:
> >>
> >> >Mothballed:  The ship has been completely shut down, pumped full of inert
> >> >            gas, bagged, and stuck inside a convenient asteroid.
> >>
> >>  Hmm, a question .. why instead of pumping it full of a gas(which would
> >> have to be pumped out, also) instead of just leaving it a vacume?
> >> bri <bri@teleport.com>
> >
> >To avoid the natural process by which material in contact with each
> >other tend to share molecules when in a vacuum and eventually become
> >inseparable. More commonly known as "Vacuum welding". Storing objects
> >in an inert gas helps avoid this as well as minimizing any oxidation.
> 
>  Hmm, I wasn't aware of this .. How long would it take for 2 things to weld
> together?
>  This could pose some problems for the typicial 'no life support abandoned
> 1000 year old ship' plot ;>
> bri <bri@teleport.com>

>Per my wife, who's a mechanical engineer, vacuum welding can occur in
>as little as 3-10 years. The majority of your 1000 year old ship would
>be large masses of useless metal. :-(

- ------------------------------

With lower tech materials, that was certainly true, and played utter
havoc with early attempts to maintain mothball fleets. Fortunately,
crystaliron displays a magnificent resistance to vacc-welding, as do
coherent superdense and all more advanced material technologies
discovered thus far.

Ship's systems and sub-systems are now modular in nature, and filled
with just such an inert gas as you describe to ward off the inimical
effects of long-term storage in space. With modern stellar technology,
one may simply fling open the airlocks, place a (solar-battery powered)
electrostatic field over the doorways, cargo bay doors, and weapons
ports to keep out micro-particulate matter, and viola! One may safely
store a modern vessel for up to centuries, if need be; or recover
combat-disabled vessels after decades or -- in some extreme cases --
centuries in deep space.

Now in some cases, it is true that the funtionality of minor systems may
be degraded IF a ship is stored amateurishly or abandoned in great
haste. If unrefined jump fuel is carried (either hydrogen or water),
then a major cleaning job may be necessary; for there are bacteria
proven to survive in either substance who will set up thriving colonies.
If the seals on the fuel tank slowly give way, and there is even a
micro-atmosphere left within the hull, the entire interior of the ship
may resemble something left for far too long in the back of someone's
refrigerator. Bacteria and microorganisms from the bodies of the
perished crew may do the same.

(In one case, a relic ship was found -- a science and exploration vessel
of some sort, apparently -- where just such a state of affairs
prevailed. Even after the ship was exposed to vacuum in an attempt to
kill off the miniature ecology that had set up shop within the hull,
some of the more inimical life forms (descendants of those who had
escaped from the lab) crawled into the IG-sealed subcomponenents and
went into hibernation until the ship was brought into drydock, then ran
merrily amuck through  the shipyard. Nobody was killed, but production
was brought to a complete halt for over twelve hours, sixteen techs were
hospitalized with various injuries, and two companies of Aerospace
Infantry were required to pacify the little brutes. All in all, a very
crude affair).

Batteries may corrode. Dust may infiltrate the life support system. The
interior of the jump fuel tank may resemble a child's science
experiment. The hazards of improper long-term storage of aerospace craft
are many, but I hasten to reassure you that vacuum welding is no longer
one of them.

- -- Dalforo VanderBildt, Citizen-Engineer At Arms; New California
Shipyards, Inc.; Arcadian Commonwealth. All rights and restrictions
apply.

(Just a bullshittium way out for anybody that cares to use it. Or should
we make that 'hullshittium'?)   ;)

- -- Jay Stranahan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:13:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: MM's involvement with T4

Hmm.

> From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> Subject: Re: Writing Traveller Stuff
> 
> 'Way back when T4 was just a twinkle in someone's eye, Andy Lilly and I 
> each got in touch with Ken Whitman (separately) about getting some sort 
> of licensing agreement so we could each (separately) produce and sell 
> Traveller products.  We were promised this many times, but as the months 
> went by we never did receive it.
> 
> Along about August or so, Jo Grant got in touch with me, because I'd said 
> something about wanting to produce Traveller products, in one of my posts 
> to TML.  Jo said that he had plans to do the same, and that he'd hooked 
> up with Andy Lilly.  So, I joined up with a group that already included 
> David Burden, Andy Lilly, and Jo Grant.  
> 
> We made some modest plans for what to do in the future.  With no 
> licensing agreement, perhaps we would try Gold Rush Games or Sword of the 
> Knight.
> 
> Then along came Ken Whitman with a project for us: Write the M0 
> manuscript (using the outline posted to TML by MWM) in three weeks.  Of 
> course, we jumped at the chance. =)

OK. So, Don wrote Starships. Tim Brown wrote Aliens. Greg Porter did
CSC. SSDS & QSDS were done by GDW-Beta members/TML members (exact names
escape me, close enough). SSDS, QSDS & VDS are all based on FF&S,
done by GDW staff who have moved on to greener pastures. Now it seems
that TML gadflies have written Milieu Zero as well. No doubt 
Stephen King did First Survey, just to boost sales with name recognition.

Without meaning to be too negative, exactly what has Marc Miller
done except give people permission to use his copyrights for material
that he came up with 10-20 years ago and hasn't touched since? Now, to
be fair, I assume he's doing a lot of project management and working 
on coming up with continued financing to do new stuff, but as far
as actual product development work goes, um, he doesn't seem to have
done much.

I mention this mostly because the whole idea with Traveller is that 
it's supposed to be being driven by ONE vision, Marc's vision. It
seems like Marc had a peripheral role in MT (though in all honesty 
I can't say I have any idea), no role in TNE and a rather distant
role with T4. Can Traveller's "vision" be maintained in this manner?
Or does it matter? 

Hoping this doesn't hurt my chances of getting a JTAS article accepted,
Ethan

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:50:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: MM's involvement with T4

On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Ethan Henry wrote:

> Without meaning to be too negative, exactly what has Marc Miller
> done except give people permission to use his copyrights for material
> that he came up with 10-20 years ago and hasn't touched since? Now, to
> be fair, I assume he's doing a lot of project management and working 
> on coming up with continued financing to do new stuff, but as far
> as actual product development work goes, um, he doesn't seem to have
> done much.

I'm sure Marc can answer this better than I can, but I'll give it a shot 
anyway. :)   First, Marc's "The Traveller Book" forms the basis of the T4 
rulebook.  Second, Marc oversaw the process of updating TTB to become 
T4.  Third, Marc has reviewed and approved every manuscript thus far.  
Fourth, Marc wrote the outline for the product that became M0.  Fifth, 
Marc was obviously involved with First Survey, since he was posting 
sector data and asking for input a while back (until he was flamed, 
anyway).  Sixth, he seems to have been the one who came up with the 
skills list, equipment list, careers list, and so on that went into T4, 
as he previewed them on TML 'way back.

This weekend, Marc is meeting with Tim Brown and Courtney to iron out the 
specifics of the 1997 product schedule.

And, as was reported previously, Marc is also attempting to bring about 
changes to the IG product line, such as bringing on a professional 
graphic designer.

So, while he may not have been doing the main design, he was certainly 
involved with all the projects that have come along.  And he will 
undoubtedly continue to be involved, perhaps moreso as time goes on.  

I hope I've helped to answer your question.  Further inquiries along 
these lines should properly be directed to Marc himself 
(farfuture@aol.com), as he knows a lot more about what he's done for 
Traveller than anyone here does. =)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:45:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

Pete, Can we have a hyper-vibro-ninja-death star dagger. I don't know exactly
what it is but it sounds neat.
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:45:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Age of TML members : JTAS vote

In a message dated 97-01-13 11:08:23 EST, Pete writes:

>My players are ;31, 27, and (slap!) Ok!
>
> I'll let neveron reveal his own age.

I did not slap him that hard, he's just a whiner.
I am cresting the "hill" we all hit, about average for the TML
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:45:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: empty owner-traveller@phaser.mgpn.com messages

In a message dated 97-01-14 10:09:14 EST, you write:

>Has anyone else been getting a whole slew of these?  I've gotten at least
>10 in the past 12 hours.
>
>--------------------------------------------
>Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
>                                              -Merlin
>
>

14 of them, Has SkyTel taken over the TML?
Neveron

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:21:32 -0500 (EST)
From: TBSVT@aol.com
Subject: YIKES!!

	
	I been on the Tml for going on 2 weeks now and was expecting a lot of people
that knew Trav well but what I was not expecting was that Half of the bloody
list made T4 and the other products!! 

Any way I was reading Imp Encyclopedia and ran across the numbers Aslan
Border wars -1118 to 380 so why is there no mention of them till much later
(200 I think the new date is) so why the change?

NOTE: Vilani is best served chilled on platter of beans&rice with a RED
wine:)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:41:24 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: FSA KMA-G2 2.5mm Hypervelocity Gauss SMG

Here's my first attempt at an FF&S weapon design:

Press Release, Year 1 Day 15:

"Famille Spofulam Armaments is pleased to announce the release of its
KMA-G2 Hypervelocity Gauss SMG.  Measuring only 59.2 cm overall, and
weighing only 6.2 kg with the standard KMA-G2MAG100 100-dart magazine, its
spectacularly high (4,500 m/sec!) muzzle velocity 2.5 X 12.5 mm darts,
combines low recoil with sustainable high rates of fire and high lethality
well beyond 40 m.  Sustained-fire capability may be enhanced with the
optional 200-round KMA-G2MAG 200 magazine (weight: 7.10 kg).  Laser dot
sight and gyroscopic recoil compensation are standard."

T4 stats:

Damage: 2.5 (3 with HE rounds)
TL: 12
Range: Short
Shots: 50/100/200
Mass: Empty: 2.5 kg.  With 50/100/200 round magazine: 4.3/6.2/9.6 kg
Reloads: 50-round 1.8 kg, 100-round 3.55 kg, 200-round 7.1 kg.
Cost: 1460 Cr.

By my calculations, if the rounds are staggered, the 100-round magazine
ought to measure approximately 15 cm, and the 200-round mag about twice
that.  The 50-round mag ought to fit nicely into the grip.

        Any comments?




FF&S design notes:

Round: 2.5 X 12.5 mm, weight 0.16 gr, cost 0.0064 Cr.

Barrel length: 45 cm
Muzzle velocity: 4,500 m/sec
Barrel weight: 1.35 kg
Barrel cost: 810 Cr
Muzzle energy: 1,620 joules
Required energy: 3,240 joules
Damage value: 2.68 dart, 3.0 HE
Pen: 1-nil

Reciever type: Selective fire
ROF: 10
Reciever weight: 0.2 kg
Reciever length: 14.14 cm
Reciver cost: 24 Cr

Stock: Hollow Pistol grip
Stock weight: 0.1
Stock cost: 25
Short range: 40 m (30 with HE rounds)

Battery weight (100-round magazine): 1.944 kg
Mag type: grip
Mag weight (empty): 1.95 kg
Mag price (empty): 4 Cr
Mag weight (loaded): 3.55 kg
Mag price (loaded): 4.64 Cr

Options: laser sight, gyroscopic compensation

Recoil (single): 0.27
Recoil (burst of 10): 1.43

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:08:35 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Vacuum welding

Jay, your bullshitium on vacuum welding was great! It just became an
official part of my Traveller technologies folder. Geez, Jay, it reads
like a treatise out of FF&S! (That's a compliment, BTW)

Think about sending it into IG, will ya?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:03:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Neutrinos for fun and profit

Answering a couple of neutrino-related posts...

> From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
> Subject: Re: Fusion and neutrinos
> 
> Every star in the universe produces neutrinos, which basically don't
> interact with normal matter.   You need big tanks of stuff just to get
> one or two interactions-not a good sensor system, right?

One or two interactions a *month*, yes, in a *very* big tank filled with
carbon tetrachloride, yes.

> Thats basically shat FFS said-but it was VERY short sighted.  We have no
> gravity control today, yet it exists in Trav.  We have no superdense
> today, yet it exists in Trav.  And we most certainly don't have any jump
> drive today-yet it EXISTS in 5700AD.

All quite true, and I'll buy a magic neutrino-detection technlogy,
especially if we can hand-wave it into the existing complex of
current-physics violations in Traveller, mostly involving strong force and
gravity manipulation, wtih Jump as a piece of pure magic uncorrelated to
anything.

> Neutrinos don't interact because of their lack of electrical charge(like
> neutrons) and very small cross sections.  They pass through the 99.9%
> space gaps in normal matter.  Superdense is a different matter...sorry
> about the pun there;)  Neutrinos will interact a lot more with it,
> theoretically.

Don't have FFS with me (shame on me!), but as I recall, superdense hull
material is only about 5 times denser than steel.  Given that on average a
neutrino will go through 10 lightyears of lead (!) without interacting,
I'm not impressed by the improved interaction capabilities of a few dozen
meter-equivalents of steel.

> So then you can see the nearly infinite flood of them
> that exist in the universe!  How so you see a tiny little ship reactor?  
> Remove the ambient known sources, leaving the unknowns on the sensor. 
> Farafetched?  Impossible?  If we knew how to do this we would be TL13!

You'd find it the same way you find a submarine in an ocean filled with
ambient sound.  Use filters that strip away most of the background,
leaving only likely targets.  For example, you might look for

- - Neutrinos in energy bands characteristic of technological fusion power
  sources rather than stars and so forth,  (Ummmm...if, that is, neutrinos
  *can* have different energies, like photons...can they?  I'm suddenly
  unsure on this.)
- - Neutrino sources with high angular motion (hence probably much nearer
  than 'fixed' background sources).
- - Neutrino sources undergoing rapid modulations in intensity -- people do
  turn power plants up and down, bring them down entirely from time to
  time, and so forth.

There are probably many other tricks you could use.

> From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
> Subject: Re: Neutrino Sensors
> 
> Peter  H. Brenton <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> 
> Down on the Ice at McMurdo, the Cosmic Ray Annex houses "cosmic ray
> sensors" of some sort. I don't recall the exact particles being
> studied, but something in the back of my mind wants to say
> "neutrinos".

Nope, neutrino sensors are tanks of cleaning fluid at the bottom of mines
(seriously).  Cosmic rays are incredibly energetic atomic nuclei that come
barrelling into Earth's atmosphere at very nearly the speed of light.  60
miles up or so, they plow into unsuspecting atoms in our atmosphere,
annihilating one another and creating a shower of secondary particles with
very short lifetimes which spray toward the ground, sometimes undergoing
additional decay along the way.  These secondary showers are what
ground-based cosmic-ray detectors really "see."  By examining the
constituents and energy of the secondary particles, one can reconstruct
(roughly) the original cosmic ray particle.

A researcher at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center once described
high-energy physics to me as "trying to figure out the workings of a Swiss
watch by firing a rifle at it and examining the resulting debris."  It's
an apt summary of the field.

> > I can't remember now whether the particles are so few and far
> > between or that there is an overwhelming amount of "background"
> > radiation to sense against.

It's both, really.  Right now neutrino *detections* are few and far
between because the puppies are so elusive; a whole buncha neutrinos have
to sail through your detector before one of them deigns to interact with
it an give you a signal.  If we had a magical 100%-efficient neutrino
catcher, the problem would reverse; the Universe is awash in a sea of
neutrinos.  Trillions of them are zipping through your body every second.
As I mentioned above, pulling a desired signal out of that would require
careful filtering.

> The cosmic ray sensors are encased in blocks of concrete. I also 
> recall that "recording" cosmic rays is difficult because they are few 
> and far between.

The concrete blocks are a crude band-pass filter; only high-energy stuff
gets through to the detector.  This helps screen out the lower-energy
particles created through radioactive decay at the earth's
surface...though actually concrete itself is noticeably radioactive,
thanks to potassium-40 decay.  This process produces beta particles of a
few well-known energies, though; they probably just remove those spikes
from the data. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:35:20 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Retirement Pay

Joseph M. Saul wrote:
> 
> >The one point that has always seemed off, and they tried to fix it in =
> >TNE, is retirement pay.  A private retiring gets the same pay as Fleet =
> >commander.  Does everyone get the same pay in their careers despite =
> >rank?  I can see the desire for a simple character generation system but =
> >there should be some kinda modifier for the different ranks.  Anybody =
> >had ideas for this?
> 
> I multiply it by their rank number, i.e. pay grade.  O5= gets 5x, etc.  It can
> add up to a lot of cash, but somehow I don't see the Imperium being too stingy
> with its retired Naval Captains, Generals, Admirals, and the like.


How about this....

Retirement pay (Ranks) base + rank number times 100
Retirement pay (Officers) base + rank number times 300

This way, Senior NCO's are roughly equal to a captain (as they are in pay for the Canadian 
Forces (I was a pay clerk)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:40:16 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller/BAB5

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> > Two things has anybody attempted yet to convert BAB5 to T4, i'd be
> > interested in this, a friend of mine is trying to create the NAAN at the
> > moment,
> 
> Why do you want to go to all the work of conversion, Colin, when the
> B5 game is due out any time?
> 
> Kenneth.

Due in large part to mechanics (I have been to their site, and what I saw looked, well, 
weenie)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:52:34 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: For immediate feedback

At 05:50 AM 1/17/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Here's your chance to look over a piece I'm working on and provide
>feedback.  Please be gentle....  :-)
>
>Ship Weaponry In the Terran Republic
>
>   Traditionally, warships and other armed vessels within the Imperium
>and the Solomani Confederation mounted one secondary weapon (turret,
>barbette) per 100 tons displacement, and one primary weapon (bay, spinal
>mount) per 1000 tons displacement.  The 1:100/1:1000 ratio was
>maintained because the Imperial and Solomani navies had substantial ship
>construction facilities and high quality starports at their disposal,
>making hulls both cheap and plentiful.  
><snip>
>

I was always under the impression, from CT forward, that the 1:100 & 1/1000
limits were related to the structural integrity of the hull. Sticking more
that 3 dt effective hole in less than 100 dt of hull tended to compromise
the hull's ability to sustain damage or tolerate accelleration stresses.

Could be just differences in interpretation.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:27:09 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: YIKES!!

> NOTE: Vilani is best served chilled on platter of beans&rice with a RED
> wine:)


That is in poor taste.  Vilani is the other OTHER white meat, and should
be served with white wine.  And they don't have beans and rice on Vland.

What did the two Vilani say when eating the clown?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:50:41 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: Retirement pay....

I agree with you that retirement pay is a mess in all of the Traveller 
rules. When you really examine any of the economics of the Traveller 
universe you may, as I have, conclude that they are all a mess. I have 
spent countless hours trying to integrate my sense of economic coherence 
with Traveller economics.

- -----
Mark a Traveller since the age of Gavin


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M``# ````````1@`````8A0```````!X`2( (( 8``````, ```````!&````
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E`````````!X`/0`!````!0```%)%.B ``````P`--/TW``"P&X4`
`
end

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #856
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, January 18 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 857



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Retirement Pay
RE: MM's involvement with T4
FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle
Re: Writing Traveller Stuff
Re: Imperial Navy reserves
Re: Traveller/BAB5
Re: Retirement pay
Re: Age, Design Sequences and CDROMs
Re: Imperial navy reserves (long)
Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle
Re: Imperial Navy reserves
Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle
Mothballing and Tech Longevity

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:54:14 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: Retirement Pay

There is an article with a "fix" (completely unofficial, of course!) in
Dark Star #2 ... allows Officers to retire on better benefits as well as
some wrinkles for all retirees. Of course, the problem is, that Dark Star
is not generally available except as previously noted on this list.

if that is the article we saw in beta on this list then I agree it goes a way toward improving the economics of retirement.

- -----
Mark a Traveller since the age of Gavin

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`
end

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:03:00 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: MM's involvement with T4

Without meaning to be too negative, exactly what has Marc Miller
done except give people permission to use his copyrights for material
that he came up with 10-20 years ago and hasn't touched since? Now, to
be fair, I assume he's doing a lot of project management and working 
on coming up with continued financing to do new stuff, but as far
as actual product development work goes, um, he doesn't seem to have
done much.

I must say that I was disappointed not to find any word from Marc in the new JTAS.

- -----
Mark a Traveller since the age of Gavin

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`
end

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:13:05 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle

        The Famille Spofulam Armaments 6.66 Gauss Magnum Express* Very
Large Game Gauss Rifle:

Press Release, Sylea, Year 0 Day 33:

"...to quote a classic of Solomani 2d cinema:

'what's it for?'
        'Hunting...'
'Hunting what?'
        'Name it'

Designed for the demanding sportsman, the 6.66 Gauss Magnum Express is the
ultimate big game rifle.  It offers the highest muzzle velocity of any
sporting weapon currently available in the Imperium, which in fact is right
at the theoretical limit of gauss projectile muzzle velocity of 6,000
m/sec.  The 6.66 GME is guaranteed to drop almost anything it hits;
geneered rhinoceri, Ardunian Big Purple Pouncing Things, or low-TL armoured
vehicles and aircraft..."


T4 stats:

Damage: 10.5
TL: 12
Range: Long
Shots: 5
Mass: 8.5 kg empty, 10 kg loaded.  With optional bipod 17.2 kg empty, 18.7
loaded
Reloads: 1.5 kg.
Cost: 2425 (bipod included)

FF&S design notes:

Length overall: 155.8 cm
Weight loaded/empty: 10/8.5, with bipod: 18.7/17.2
Bulk: 10
Pen: 2-2-3
Muzzle velocity 6,000 m/s


Round: 6.66 X 33.3 mm, price .05 Cr (0.1 HE, 0.15 HEAP), weight 1.39 gr.

Barrel length: 60 cm
Barrel weight: 1.8 kg
Barrel price: 1080 Cr
Muzzle energy: 25,020 joules
Req'd energy: 50,040 joules
Damage value: 10.54 (HE: 10.87)

Reciever weight: 5 kg
Reciver length: 70.74 cm
Reciever price: 500
(ROF: semiauto)

Stock weight: 0.5 kg
Stock length: 25 cm
Stock price: 30 Cr
Range: 210 m (240 w/laser sight) (312 w/bipod)

Battery weight: 1.5
Mag weight (empty): 1.5 kg
Mag price (empty): 3 Cr
Mag weight (loaded): 1.527
Mag weight (loaded): 3.25 Cr

Options: Laser sight (.5 kg/300 Cr), shock absorbing stock (.2 kg/75 Cr),
gyroscopic compensation (.5 kg/300 Cr), detachable bipod (8.68 kg/136 Cr).

Recoil no bipod: 3.13, w/bipod attached: 2.66, w/bipod attached & grounded: 1.33


        Any comments?  I'd be interested in learning what the recoil values
in TNE actually mean; I have no idea of how to interpret them, save that
higher is worse, obviously.


*A name which I lifted from Walter Jon Williams' "Voice of the Whirlwind"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:16:33 -0800
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Writing Traveller Stuff

On 17 Jan 97 at 11:59, Joseph E. Walsh spewed:

> On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Andy Lilly wrote:
> 
> Enter Stu Dollar.  I begged and pleaded with him to help us out, and
> he was gracious enough to do so (his wife Suz had been editing my
> own efforts right along, so I asked her to wheedle him a little,
> too; he's a reluctant sort when it comes to writing RPG material
> (not!<G>)).  In 2 days, he did the job, and his wife edited it. 
> So...

Oh yeah.  Joe forgot to mention that during the 2 days in the 
question, I was battling a very nasty cold/flu type thing, which 
caused sinus headaches, fever and a nasty ear infection.  The net result of 
this is that my portion of the book is written in Old High Vilani.  
So even if there are errors in proofreading, nobody's really going to 
know.  :-)

Coming Soon, Summer 1997 from CORE:  The world's first Old High 
Vilani to English Dictionary.  (As soon as we finish translating it 
from Trokh, that is...)  :-)

Stu

PS.  No, no portion of Milieu 0 is written in Old High Vilani (It is 
written entirely in K'Kreer!)
PPS.  Before you ask, no, CORE is not releasing a Vilani to English Dictionary.
Look however, for CORE's 4 volume set, The complete works of William 
Shakespeare, translated into Gvegh.  :-)
PPPS.  Joe may have been exaggerating how reluctant I was to work on 
the book.  The holy water sprinkler and rack were used minimally at 
most.  :-)

Stuart L. Dollar               sdollar@goodnet.com
- ---------------------------------------------------
Official USENet Product Infoperson  Imperium Games
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." 
- -Thomas Jefferson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:02:06 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:49:25 -0800, David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
>>  Hmm, I wasn't aware of this .. How long would it take for 2 things to weld
>> together?
>>  This could pose some problems for the typicial 'no life support abandoned
>> 1000 year old ship' plot ;>
>> bri <bri@teleport.com>

>Per my wife, who's a mechanical engineer, vacuum welding can occur in
>as little as 3-10 years. The majority of your 1000 year old ship would
>be large masses of useless metal. :-(

But doesn't this assume bare metal?  If the surface was painted,
or otherwise coated, I'm not sure this would be a problem.

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 04:37:59 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller/BAB5

> Due in large part to mechanics (I have been to their site, and what I saw looked, well, 
> weenie)

It looked like a well weenie?

Kenneth.
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:52:27 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Retirement pay

Clint Fishback writes:
>The one point that has always seemed off, 

Just one? You got to be kidding ;-)

>[...] is retirement pay.  A private retiring gets the same pay as Fleet
>commander. Does everyone get the same pay in their careers despite rank?  
>I can see the desire for a simple character generation system but there 
>should be some kinda modifier for the different ranks.  Anybody had ideas 
>for this?

Yes. In the integrated, fully consistent, Traveller economics system that
I'm trying to work out, pensions are 20% of final pay for each term more
than four served, up to a maximum of 100%.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 03:04:24 -0800
From: bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Age, Design Sequences and CDROMs

At 11:10 AM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Greetings to all,
>
>I'm 27 this week ( happy birthday to me , happy birthday to me .. ) and
>have been gaming since '81 ish. As for my group the youngest is 24 and the
>oldest was 30 yesterday - which reminds me, I haven't sent him a card.
>Whoops.
 Happy birthday to you :)
bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:28:42 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Imperial navy reserves (long)

Andrew Vallance writes:
>>But that's just it. The Vargr _don't_ have large effective interstellar
>>states. The best they can do is largish, semi-permanent, INeffective 
>>interstellar states. The Vargr concept of government just isn't the same
>>as the human concept. Large groups within national borders are autonomous
>>of, or even hostile to, the nation so tax collection must be a nightmare.
> 
>I'll admit, I can't fathom how it would be done either, but then again, I'm 
>not a Vargr :*) (well at least not the last time I looked). But the Vargr do 
>seem to be able to manage at least subsector plus sized govts which can last
>generations (vis: the Thoengling Empire, described as a "Large centralised 
>state in the Vargr Extents... existed in it current form since 792).

That is certainly as permanent as many human states, indeed, more so than 
many, but it dosen't say anything about why it lasted that long. Given the 
descriptions of Vargr psycology my guess is that it governs a lot less than 
an equivalent human empire would. Large groups inside the Thoengling Empire 
would be autonomous or even hostile to it. Vargr governments just don't put 
as much store on territory as human ones does.

>>Unfriendly, yes, but the air is breathable and the water is there. And TL 10
>>is quite enough to sustain artificial environments.
> 
>But not to resist a TL 13 Vargr :*).

That depends on how many. The Vargr would have a 50 to 1 advantage from the
TL. But you still need to gather an awful lot of Vargr to outnumber the
defenses of a population A world (that's assuming said world hasn't done
the smart thing and bought higher-TL defenses elsewhere (there are rules
for that in _Striker_).

>>No, these are the Imperial Navy reserves stord at Kukhish. The Kukhish
>>planetary defense reserves hasen't even been touched upon in that example.
> 
>Surly the Imperial ships would mostly be at Depot?

What kind of shipyard capacity can you get from a world with 1000 inhabitants?
Even if you assume a large floating population you run into logistical
problems very fast. I doubt that Corridor Depot could build or activate
many ships at a time (Mind you, that dosen't make them useless. Most ship
repairs would be carried out by the ship's crew assisted by specialists
from Depot. But that only works with active ships). The ships would have
to be activated at the worlds where the shipyards are. So why complicate
things by storing them in another system? (And why store them in a place
defended by only a few squadrons when you can store them in in a place
defended by multiple fleets?) 

>>I was saying that if the Imperial Navy traditionally has a huge
>>reserve fleet laid up in ordinary then the 5FW was too short to get through
>>it and no new construction would appear. However, if it only had a few ships
>>in ordinary then it would have, at least, 1 to 2 years worth of shipbuilding
>>more than that in 1117.
> 
>Using the two World Wars and the Revolutionary and Napoelonic Wars as 
>examples. 

But the example we should use is whatever the Traveller rules provide us,
unless they are completely unbeliveable. Since we are talking about imaginary 
technologies my yardstick is not whether the rules seem to agree with Real 
Life anno 1700 or 1800, but wether they are internally consistent.

Of course, for stuff that we don't have any rules for, Real Life provides
a good takeoff point for discussions. But we should stick to the rules until
we overload our "suspension of disbelief" circuits.

>The major building programs took at least a year to actually start. 

By the same token it takes time for such a program to wind down. Unless you
want to postulate that the Imperium abandoned any ship not finished on day
120-1110.

>Any wartime building program is a major administrative task which takes 
>some time to organise, 

Yes, but whatever the delays are, they must be subsumed in the building
rules. Besides, we can assume that plans exist for reactivating the
reserves, whatever they may be. Those plans only need one message ("We're
at war!") to be put into effect. Whatever time it takes to reactivate
those reserves can be used to plan any new buildings. Thus the building
program can be ready the moment the last reserve ship is finished.

>even more so when you don't have instantanious communications.

Sure, but you're only gaining a few weeks there. Tobia would know about the
war 7-8 weeks after it started (and it would keep up the building program
7-8 weeks longer after it ended, come to think about it).
 
>Now I see the point your making, my apologies. Yes there is something 
>seriously wrong here. I actually suspect it's that TCS and Striker give 
>way to high GNP (in my campaigns I slash them to 20%). 

If you reality check that against what a person need to survive you'll find
that the minimum per capita GNP is Cr1800 (Minimum food=Cr60/month, dismal 
lodgings=Cr60/month, and then I've assumed Cr30/month for minimum 
necessities). Note that this would leave nothing over for defenses or
anything else. An average citizen (ie. what the rules call Ordinary level)
needs Cr7200 (Good food Cr200/month, Good lodging Cr200/month, and then I've
assumed Cr200/month for basic necessities). Again, this is without accounting
for community expenses like defense, firefighting, etc (What I think of as
"insurance" expenses). In the integrated Traveller economics system that I'm 
trying to work out I assume an average GNP of Cr10,000 per citizen, with an 
average expense distribution of 25% each for the four categories (food, 
lodging, personal necessities, and insurance).

>Perhaps the missing figure is crew costs. 

Perhaps. But consider that TCS maintenance figures are 100 times greater
than the annual maintenance alone and dosen't include unexpected damages 
(ie. battle damage). You can get an awful lot of support service for the
remaining 99%.

>I know that TCS says they are factored in, but if they weren't it would go 
>a long way to rectifiing it.

A way, but not a long way. You could maybe increase the effective maintenance
of a ship by Cr100,000 per crew, but not more than that, IMO.

And every one of these solutions hits the Vargr at least as much as it hits
the Imperium. Unless you let the Vargr get away with smaller crew salaries
to reflect a lack of pension scemes. OTOH, a generous pension would be a
good way for a Vargr ruler to discourage desertions, so I could make a
case for _higher_ personel costs for Vargr. 
 
>>That is what happened historically to surface ships on one world. Not what
>>"happened" historically to spaceships in three Imperiums
> 
>True, but it is still the best we've got to go on :*)
 
I still think that the best we have to go on is the Traveller rules and
background. Unfortunately that isn't good enough ;-(
 
>What the Danes didn't count on was that one: the British would attack a 
>neutral without any warning when the defences weren't fully manned; and 
>two: that Nelson wouldn't play by the rules and use highly unorhodox 
>tactics. 

You mean threatening to set his captives on fire? That certainly was a
highly unorthodox tactic ;-). However, it only got him a ceasefire. It
was the death of the Tsar that made the whole question moot by breaking
the defensive alliance.

>When the RN came back and tried it again in 1807, it took them rather 
>longer and they only succeeded because they Danes came out and fought 

No, in 1807 Copenhagen was taken by siege. The fleet was captured with
hardly a shot fired.

>(with their hastily gathered crews). Incidentally as a note before Dec 7 
>1941 the universal term for a suprise attack on an unsuspecting neutral 
>navy was to "Copenhagen" them :*)

Which is not quite fair on the British since it is hard to imagine that
Denmark wouldn't suspect that an armed neutrality alliance wouldn't provoke 
some sort of response.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:40:36 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle

At 05:13 AM 1/18/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>Length overall: 155.8 cm
><snip>
>
Length? 100 cm = 1 meter; 1.558 meters long? 5 feet? Wouldn't this require
some kind of a minimum strength or dexterity to use, unless it is always
mounted on something?  

I may not have the hang of the meteric system, but a 5 foot long gun seems a
bit unwieldy. Certainly not going to get may places without drawing LOTS of
attention.

Garry


 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:30:51 +0000
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

At 23:02 17/01/97 -0800, "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
wrote:
>Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:49:25 -0800, David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
>>>  Hmm, I wasn't aware of this .. How long would it take for 2 things to
weld
>>> together?
>>>  This could pose some problems for the typicial 'no life support abandoned
>>> 1000 year old ship' plot ;>
>>> bri <bri@teleport.com>
>
>>Per my wife, who's a mechanical engineer, vacuum welding can occur in
>>as little as 3-10 years. The majority of your 1000 year old ship would
>>be large masses of useless metal. :-(
>
>But doesn't this assume bare metal?  If the surface was painted,
>or otherwise coated, I'm not sure this would be a problem.
>
	I would have thought that if you're going to the touble of painting every
metal surface in the ship, it would be easier to use the inert gas instead
anyway. I mean, the gas would be far easier to get into every part of the
ship than using paint wouldn't it? Even spray painting or whatever system
you use to apply it couldn't hope to get to as many nooks and crannies as
gas. And removing the gas would be easier afterwards as well, surely.

	Also, someone else mentioned that if vacuum welding did take place, and
the ship ended up useless, wouldn't it have some salvageable value? Cutting
it up for the metals for example, or smashing your way in through any
transparent frontages to enter, say, the bridge or some part of the ship
that may have valuable components or cargo. Any possibilities here?

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis

bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk , bejlewis@aol.com
Mobile Tel - 0956-506527          
From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 06:46:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Garry Ward wrote:

> At 05:13 AM 1/18/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >Length overall: 155.8 cm
> ><snip>
> >
> Length? 100 cm = 1 meter; 1.558 meters long? 5 feet? Wouldn't this require
> some kind of a minimum strength or dexterity to use, unless it is always
> mounted on something?  

	Yeah, this thing is very unwieldy, though since the design is more
or less equivalent to trying to make a 20mm aircraft cannon into a
hunting rifle, maybe it SHOULD be. This is definitely a rifle that
shouldn't be shot without a rest.

	But it also points out one of the many failings of
FFS...regardless of anything else, many parts of the small (hah!) arms
design sequences are broken. Bipods for instance, should NOT mass at 8
kilos!

FFS isn't completely broken, it's just that the equations all assume a
straight line where there is considerable divergence at either end of the
design scale. Unfortunately, given the 'Big guns...we gotta have BIG
guns!' sort of attitude most PC's have, that non linear region is where we
spend most of the design time.

As a forinstance, I tried to design a Barret .50 Cal rifle...it ended up
quite a bit heavier than the real thing, but when I tried to do my utterly
middle of the road S&W .38 revolver, it cane out bang on the nose in size,
weight, and performance.

Anyone with 3g^3 care to take a whack at this design?  

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:42:17 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Mothballing and Tech Longevity

Something that may be relevant; I posted this what, just before Xmas, and
nobody commented -- must mean you all agreed ;-)

Anyway, its sort of relevant to this topic:-

Something I read the other day got me thinking -- so bear with me for a
moment, even those who would claim its an unusual situation ;-)

Imagine that you have a brand new 1997 model Car (fill in model and make of
choice), just off the showroom floor, in fact - less than 20 ks on the
clock. OK, then imagine that you immediately put it into your garage at
home on returning from the showroom and, without further ado, left it
there. You make no attempts to prepare it for storage - its just sitting
there.

How many months do you think would pass before some vital subsystem would
malfunction if you decided to get into it one day and simply turn the key
in the ignition and drive away? Six months? Twelve months? Two years? Ten
Years? A hundred years?

I think we can safely say that the chances of it being operational without
*much* work after as little as *ten* years would be close to zero; and
after a hundred it would take more work than the machine would be worth,
except as a "vintage" car, to get it running again.

Rubber parts decay, plastics stiffen and crack, fuel evaporates, fabrics
decay or are attacked by insects, metal parts rust.

Even if it was stored, unprepared, in a vacuum, metal parts tend to surface
weld themselves in such conditions over lengthy periods of time, though if
it was a *space* vehicle the overall structure may remain relatively sound.

Try the same thing with, say, a brand new Laptop Computer, top of the line
model. Because it doesn't rely as much (in some ways) on moving parts,
perhaps it *might* last a little longer - perhaps not.

What's the point? Well, what defines Forerunner Artifacts - *some* of them
(considerable numbers, in fact, *all* Black Globe generators are Forerunner
artifacts, remember!) - still work some hundreds of thousands of years
after being abandoned (for whatever reason). Whether this is *real world*
realistic or not, it is something that evidently *defines* Forerunner tech
(or some of it, at least).

We also know from the Darrian sourcebook that TL16 Starships and related
tech lasts for a 1000 years or more - though this was contradicted in the
Regency Soucebook, something I personally would ignore - but, then, you all
know that I believe that TNE and Virus were a bad joke :-(

Regardless of whether Virus exists or not, the thing defining TL16 tech
seems to be that it, too, is much longer lasting than would normally be
expected.

So this is the question - why?

This is rhetorical, of course! I have a *suggestion* -- one that actually
ties in with the insult to the intelligence that was Virus (though one that
makes what Virus was *vastly* more believable ... the idea of walking
microchips is about as ludicrous and science-fantasy as you can get).

Well, *how* would these items last for so long? The answer seems to be that
they must have some capacity for *self-repair*. In a limited sense they
must be "alive". I would suggest that its the *electronics* alone that are
most likely to be like this - and, while I doubt that they'd be alive in
the sense that they were in the "Virus" descriptions we have (which seem to
be based on a silly idea by someone who had not a clue about computers and
what they may be like in 3000 years time - OK, I admit it, I *loathed* the
*stupidity* of Virus :-(  -- means that they would have to have some sort
of inbuilt "template" for their circuitry and that this *could* become
corrupted under the wrong conditions ... at least if the "right"
precautions were not taken.

Perhaps it is simply that this was the Imperium, a TL15 culture, making its
first tottering steps towards TL16 ... and eventually to something
approaching the reliability of Forerunner level tech. It certainly puts
"Virus" in a new light - and makes the pathetic anti-computer fears of the
Regency and RefCol just that, pathetic ... superstitious drivel based on a
lack of understanding (and, in the case of the RefCol, perhaps, a lack of a
*desire* to understand) as to where the new tech had gone wrong. But, then,
the Vilani have always had an anti-computer streak that the Terrans don't
seem to have had.

Would Darrian computers have been affected by Virus? We don't know, as the
Regency and RefCol and their era are years away from ever being broached
again (and it can't be *too* far away for me!), and, anyway, since the
Regency effectively cut itself off from the rest of the Imperium to protect
itself from the Virus, thus "protecting" the Darrians from something that
they may never have needed protection against anyway, we'll probably never
know.

But would *ancient* level computers have been affected by Virus. According
to the ludicrous way it seems to have been implemented in TNE, *yes*.
According to my suggestion? NO! The Ancient computers would be a *mature*
level of self-repair tech (if they haven't gone beyond that, in fact), and
so would probably not even recognise the presence of viral code!

Anyway, its an idea that I thought might be of interest, whether you think
Virus is garbage or not.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --------------------------------
Actually, in addition to the above, have you noted that in the Central
Supply Catalog that there are several items listed that are basically
salvage from the *Rule of Man* period some what, 800 odd years before! And
they are still usable *and* safe to use. These are listed as TL14. So even
at TL14 there must be stuff -- one of them is a Vacc Suit, IIRC -- that is
self-repairing.

As far as I can see it, it is one of the more reasonable explanations.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #857
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, January 18 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 858



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Traveller on IRC - Announcement
Re: Age of Traveller Players
RE: Retirement pay
Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle
Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle
Re: Melee weapons
Re: White Dwarf stars and safe jump distance question
Phil has seen the LIGHT! (was Re: Mothballing and Tech Longevity)
Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle
Adios Amigos
RE: Language Translations
Role-Playing and Task Systems
Milleux
New year, New job, New email address
POP3 and Marc Speaks!
Picture this...
JTAS Appears
Black Boxes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 07:47:35 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller on IRC - Announcement

Greetings!

On behalf of Imperium Games, I would like to announce that IG has 
added a new service to us, the Traveller internet community.  An IRC 
server is being provided for us to use for our scheduled #traveller 
events.  

This server is *not* connected to the IRC networks in existance in 
any way.  It is a stand-alone system.  The upside to this is that 
we will all be on the same server and the same pair of ports, no lag, 
no kline problems.  The downside for those that connect to multiple 
channels at once, is that you will no longer be able to, while 
meeting with us.  This service is being provided as long as there is 
no abuse of the server. Abuse includes running clones or bots or 
trading warez.

The server will only be open for our use for the scheduled events.  
These events are listed on the IG website under Traveller Chat and 
there is a link to email me from there.  Unscheduled Traveller chat 
will continue to be held on Undernet #traveller.

Please email me if you are starting a new IRC game, have any questions
about the schedule, wish to suggest a topic or event, or wish to 
volunteer your vast knowledge to lead a discussion or teach a Design
Workshop.  Also, as always, email me if you need any help in getting 
on IRC.

The address to the server is:

www.imperiumgames.com, ports 6665 & 6666

Watch the IG site and CmdrX's homepage for news on our first Design 
Workshop!  This workshop will take place either late this month or 
early in February.

Thanks to IG for providing this service to us, and to David Bullock 
for all his work in setting it up and keeping it running!

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:14:19 -0500
From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@cyber-wizard.com>
Subject: Re: Age of Traveller Players

Jeffery M. Miller wrote:
> 
> ---Tim P. wrote:
>  I am 28 and have been playing AOL since ...
> --- end of quote ---
> Tee hee! Guess AOL is getting to him! :->
Just to add to this list of ages... I'm 40!  Been playing traveller
since 1977 or so...

- -- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% Peter L. Berghold -- Unix Hacker at Large                          %%
%% TCG -- MIS Department       PHONE: (908) 392-2722                  %%
%% berghold@tcg.com  (work Email) peterb@cyber-wizard.com (play Email)%%
%% "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it"  %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 07:47:02 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: Retirement pay

>[...] is retirement pay.  Anybody had ideas for this?

Yes. In the integrated, fully consistent, Traveller economics system that
I'm trying to work out, pensions are 20% of final pay for each term more
than four served, up to a maximum of 100%.

[m]  Hans, what do you have going. I've been working econ fixes for 
traveller myself so let me know if you'd like to bounce your stuff off 
another mind.

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end

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:11:36 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle

Garry Ward wrote:

>At 05:13 AM 1/18/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>Length overall: 155.8 cm
>><snip>
>>
>Length? 100 cm = 1 meter; 1.558 meters long? 5 feet? Wouldn't this require
>some kind of a minimum strength or dexterity to use, unless it is always
>mounted on something?
>
>I may not have the hang of the meteric system, but a 5 foot long gun seems a
>bit unwieldy. Certainly not going to get may places without drawing LOTS of
>attention.
>
>Garry

        Well, yeah.  Note that the title says "Very Large Game Gauss
Rifle", not "body pistol".  You would not want to go strolling down the
streets of Sylea with one casually slung over a shoulder.  For one, the
back strain would get to you after a while...

        This thing basically has Great White Hunter and Ernest Hemingway
written all over it...  I figure that most people with normal testosterone
levels would hire a gunbearer out of the local gym to carry it around the
savannah, and wherever possible fire it using the bipod.  If the recoil
numbers mean what I think, only a complete nutbar would try and fire it
from the hip..:)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:11:40 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Garry Ward wrote:
>
>> At 05:13 AM 1/18/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >Length overall: 155.8 cm
>> ><snip>
>> >
>> Length? 100 cm = 1 meter; 1.558 meters long? 5 feet? Wouldn't this require
>> some kind of a minimum strength or dexterity to use, unless it is always
>> mounted on something?
>
>        Yeah, this thing is very unwieldy, though since the design is more
>or less equivalent to trying to make a 20mm aircraft cannon into a
>hunting rifle, maybe it SHOULD be. This is definitely a rifle that
>shouldn't be shot without a rest.


        Well, I dunno about the 20mm comparison.  Originally, I tried to
design it at .666 caliber, or about 16.9mm.  I quickly gave up when I
discovered that the reciever would have weighed 30-odd kg.  I was basically
going for a) a caliber that had three sixes in it and b) ludicrously high
muzzle velocities.  At 6.66 mm, it is larger-bore than most modern assault
rifles, but smaller than a lot of hunting calibers, so the projectile is
not terribly big and heavy by 20th century firearm standards AFAIK.  OTOH,
most gauss designs I've seen are in the 4-5mm range, so...  The projectile
is relatively boring; it's just the muzzle velocity that makes it so nasty.


>
>        But it also points out one of the many failings of
>FFS...regardless of anything else, many parts of the small (hah!) arms
>design sequences are broken. Bipods for instance, should NOT mass at 8
>kilos!


        Yeah...  I noticed that the bipod seemed a tad heavy too.  I left
it that way because I know nearly zip about gunsmithing, and because I
didn't want to start fudging immediately.  I'll probably just adjust the
values before I have people start shooting them at my players ;).

>
>FFS isn't completely broken, it's just that the equations all assume a
>straight line where there is considerable divergence at either end of the
>design scale. Unfortunately, given the 'Big guns...we gotta have BIG
>guns!' sort of attitude most PC's have, that non linear region is where we
>spend most of the design time.


        Hm.  Any suggestions/homebrew fixes?


>
>As a forinstance, I tried to design a Barret .50 Cal rifle...it ended up
>quite a bit heavier than the real thing, but when I tried to do my utterly
>middle of the road S&W .38 revolver, it cane out bang on the nose in size,
>weight, and performance.
>
>Anyone with 3g^3 care to take a whack at this design?


        And again, one question... how exactly do the recoil rules in TNE work?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 97 17:31 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

In-Reply-To: <199701141756.JAA29920@mom.hooked.net>

<< >I thought they used them as a fear weapon.  It's scary as hell having 
>a screaming maniac come charging at you with this long knife on the 
>end of his rifle.
>
>It would scare the hell out of me anyway.

The only way human wave attacks like that work is if you can overwhelm your
target.  The Soviets made very sucessful use of bayonet charges after the
winter of 1943.. they had the manpower to absorb the massive casulties, and
the Germans soon learned that firepower wouldn't stop them, so units tended
to rout at the first sign of a wave. >>

Probably the most famous recent bayonet charge was during the Falklands 
War, when the Paras charged up hill, at night, against a superior number of 
dug-in Argentinians. Only a bunch of psychopaths like the Paras would try a 
stunt like that (and get away with it)!

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 97 12:11:18 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: White Dwarf stars and safe jump distance question

Nicolas LEJEUNE posted:
>Maybe i'm boring you with my stars questions, but i've another one.
>
>The 100 diameter safe jump distance seem to be a gross approximation. A
>gravity well depends on the mass of a body, and the mass depends on the size
>and the density of this body. Assuming that all usual bodies have the same
>average density (around 1g/cm3 for most of stars and gas giant and around 5
>for rocky planets), the radius is the only changing parameter (Yes, this is
>very gross approximation).

This thread has come up before. Leonard Erikson came up with a good idea 
which uses Gravitational Tidal Forces as the limiting factor to jump 
distance.

See the following Traveller digest for his excellent post:
http://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/MailingListArchive/Traveller/v1996.n62
4

I will summarize:

The simplified tidal force formula he gave is 

C=GM/R^3

Where C = "Gravitational Curvature" in units of acceleration per meter
      G = Gravitational constant
      M = Mass of body
      R = Distance from body

For Earth:

GM = 3.986e14
Radius of Earth = 6.378e6 meters

Leonard Calculated that for the 10 dia. limit:
>For 10 diameters:
>C=3.986e14/6.378e7^3	C=4e14/6.4e7^3
>C=1.536e-9		C=1.526e-9
>
>So lets call the "10 diameter" figure 1.5e-9.
>
>For 100 diameters:
>C=3.986e14/6.378e8^3	C=4e14/6.4e8^3
>C=1.536e-12		C=1.526e-12
>
>And the 100 diameter figure is 1.5e-12. Not bad A factor of 1000
>difference in curvature. No wonder it's so much more dangerous!

hmmmm... I never noticed this before, but Leonard used 10 x the *radius* 
of the earth to calculate curvature. He should have used 20 x the 
*radius* to get 10 *diameters*.

(Technically the 10 dia. limit might mean from *surface* to starship, so 
another radius would need to be added -- but I'll assume 10 dia. limit 
means 10 diameters from centre of planet to starship, since it's canon in 
Book 6: Scouts; see page 42 under "Stellar Radii")

Soooo, my calcs give
C=3.968e14/(20*6.378e6)^3
C=1.91e-10

and the 100 dia. figure would be 1.91e-13

One interesting thing is that since density is mass/volume and volume is 
dependent upon the cube of the radius, the safe jump limit for any world 
with a similar density to Earth would always be 10 diameters! Therefore 
the 10 dia. "rule of thumb" is a valid approximation for worlds of 
similar density to Earth.

To find the safe jump distance (100 dia.), I will use C calculated above 
for 10 dia. and multiply by 10 to get the 100 dia. limit...

r = 10 * cuberoot(GM/C)

since G/C = 6.673e-11 / 1.91e-10 ~= 0.35 the formula becomes:

r = 10 * cuberoot(0.35M)

Where r = distance in meters
      M = mass in kilograms.

quick check:
  Earth r = 10 * cuberoot(0.35 * 5.98e24) = 1.28e9 m = 200 earth radii

Formula seems fine, lets see what happens for other bodies....

Sun
  r = 10 * cuberoot(0.35 * 1.99e30) = 8.86e10 m = 128 solar radii (within 
orbit of Venus)

Moon
  r = 10 * cuberoot(0.35 * 7.35e22) = 2.95e8 m = 170 lunar radii

Jupiter ("typical" Large Gas Giant)
  r = 10 * cuberoot(0.35 * 1.90e27) = 8.73e9 m = 122 jovian radii

Neptune ("typical" Small Gas Giant)
  r = 10 * cuberoot(0.35 * 1.02e26) = 3.29e9 m = 133 neputunian radii

Red Giant (M5 II, numbers from Book 6, Scouts)
  r = 10 * cuberoot(0.35 * 16 * 1.99e30) = 2.23e11 m = 321 solar radii

Since an M5 II star has a radius of 712 solar radii, the safe jump 
distance is within the surface of the star!


>White dwarfs have the mass of the sun for a radius of 1/70 Rsun (again this
>is an approximation). The density of this rocky stars is around 300Kg/cm3.
>The range factor is not the same as above. 

Your hypothetical white dwarf, would have a 10 dia. limit of 127.5 solar 
radii like the sun, just multiply by 70 to get the number of white dwarf 
radii. 

>So IMO, the 100 diameter Safe jump should be multiblied by a density factor
>just to get 'dead stars flavor'. I suggest this factor could be around 
>100,000. 

Wow. I think I prefer the factor of 70 to your 100,000. IMHO, the safe 
jump limit should depend on mass only, not density; the safe jump 
distance from the white dwarf should be the same distance as from the 
sun, if they have the same mass. The density only affects the measurement 
of distance in terms of *body diameters*.

Therefore, safe jump distance measured in diameters of the body depends 
on the cube root of the density.

- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:16:23 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Phil has seen the LIGHT! (was Re: Mothballing and Tech Longevity)

At 12:42 AM 1/19/97 +1100, Phillip McGregor wrote:
>Something that may be relevant; I posted this what, just before Xmas, and
>nobody commented -- must mean you all agreed ;-)

<rest of post snipped>

Hell has frozen over.

I just saw Phil McGregor come up with a logical justification of Virus.

I can die a happy man now. :P



+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   If I die and go to heaven, I will do what all     |
|  San Francicans do... I'll look around, and say to  |
|  St. Peter "it's nice, but it ain't San Francisco"  |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:16:26 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle

At 06:46 AM 1/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

>As a forinstance, I tried to design a Barret .50 Cal rifle...it ended up
>quite a bit heavier than the real thing, but when I tried to do my utterly
>middle of the road S&W .38 revolver, it cane out bang on the nose in size,
>weight, and performance.
>
>Anyone with 3g^3 care to take a whack at this design?  

Have a similar design in the pipeline.. designed to replace the Gauss weapon
given in CSC for BattleDress, but I can tweak the design down to a hunting
rifle.

BTW:  I'm currently on a long hiatus from work (I just love having cancer
:/), and so my web pages will be showing some definite changes.. I need some
material for the silly era.. especially bad die roll stories and famous last
words from Traveller games.

An example or two:

"I don't care that we're only 8 diameters out, jump NOW!"
"Wait, did you say that the Marine WAS or WASN'T wearing BattleDress?"
"Those can't be real Ancients."

Send to the usual place.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   If I die and go to heaven, I will do what all     |
|  San Francicans do... I'll look around, and say to  |
|  St. Peter "it's nice, but it ain't San Francisco"  |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 97 13:25:07 EST
From: Jeff & Michelle Norton <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Adios Amigos

	Lads and Lasses,

	Uncle Sam told me that I gotta go to school and have to leave the comfort
of my home, my loving family (and dogs), and my electronic friend. So, alas, to
save our limited e-mail box, I must leave the list for 10 weeks.
	I've been something of a lurker, but I want to tell you all thankyou for
the banter, info, and the good times. I'll be back after Easter weekend.
	The only bright side is that my BNCOC school is in Alabama and Huntsville
is only about an hour away. This is the home of some sort of NASA space musuem
or other. Hope  it is worth it...

	Regards,

	Jeff

	Life IS a minefield....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:42:33 +0000
From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Subject: RE: Language Translations

"You havent seen Shakespeare until you've seen it in the original 
Hiver"

A group of Hiver Scientists found a copy of the ancient Terran dance 
called the Macarena.

after several translation attempts they have concluded that its a 
primitive summoning ritual, ussed to call upon something called 
Cthulhu.

The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:33:03 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Role-Playing and Task Systems

Not to resurrect the task system debate [G], but I've been thinking about 
applying DM's based on the quality of role-play involved.  For instance, 
someone who, when his character is confronted with a ground car that 
requires repair, says, "So I fix it" might get a -2 DM.  Someone who 
says, "After disconnecting the thirbig line of the Fusion Plus module, I 
hook up the AutoDiag to the car's comp.  Discovering that it's a problem 
with the drive shaft, I grab my UniWrench and set to work" might get a DM 
+2.  

What do you think?  Do you use a system like this? 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 97 14:36:06 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Milleux

>> M0/FS is going to be the product that decides whether I 
continue to buy  Traveller product or whether I'm going to 
give up on it. I feel burned with  Starships, and my 
enthusiasm is... waning. <<

The problem I am having is that for ten years and more my 
players have been playing in a 1106-1119 time band, and 
have got very used to Jump-6, FGMP-15, 9/fib, etc as the 
best available tech. The new rules seem determined to 
straighjacket us into TL 12 as tops. All right as a new 
start, but very hard to be knocked down to.

I know the settings is M0 but it wouldn't have been too 
hard to extend the design tables to TL15, would it? Then we 
could have used T4 rules and picked our own era. As it is 
we haven't bothered with T4 at all.

>> > I agree.  NAS units below TL-20 are completely 
worthless.  I only included  > them in the list because 
they're part of the Exploration/Survey sensor  > suites in 
Starships.  Don't include them, if you don't want to (I'll  
> probably ignore them too); the power, volume, mass and 
price are all  > negligible.  >   I often included these on 
MT ship designs as part of the anti-hijack  package.    
Anyone else think that a computer with the crew's patterns 
recorded can  tell crew from invader?   <<

I also fit these to high-tech ships as AH; called 'em Aura 
Cameras. Not only can they identify crew and intruders 
100%, they can also tell you the subject's state of mind. I 
did think they might be slightly declasse in the 
psi-prejudiced Imperium, though.

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| "Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject',    |
| and you ask `what?', you'll be talking to yourself." (Maj.   |
| Court Banister/Steel Tiger)                                  |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:38:05 -0000
From: Liam McCauley <nerfherder@enterprise.net>
Subject: New year, New job, New email address

Hi,

I've been off the list since changing jobs in October, but now I'm back. =
 I've been lurking for a couple of weeks courtesy of Pipex's free trial =
offer and I'd just like to share my first experience of dealing with =
IG's new management.

I emailed Courtney about the Traveller t-shirt I ordered back in the =
summer which still hadn't arrived (the t-shirt, that is, not the =
summer), and asked if it would be OK to change the order to a copy of =
Starships (unfortunately I hadn't yet read the reviews on the list :-() =
by paying the difference in costs.
Courtney replied on the same day (a Saturday), apologised for the =
t-shirts not going out, explained about the change in management, and =
offered to waive the difference in cost between the t-shirt and =
Starships because of the delay I had suffered.  I consider this to be a =
very professional attitude, and it certainly helped to keep me as a =
customer (in fact I just picked up CSC today - I haven't had a chance to =
read much of it yet, but boy was it expensive).

Anyway, it's good to be back.

Cheers,
Liam McCauley
- --=20
NerfHerder@enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 97 14:36:18 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: POP3 and Marc Speaks!

>> From: "Arthur Murphy" <MycroftHolmes@msn.com>  [...]  
Arthur  Mycroftholmes@msn.com  "anyone know how to get POP3 
mail on an Exchange Server?"   <<

I wish I did! I'd get a medal at work if I could do this. 
Sadly, it can only output SMTP through NT RAS. I am told 
that version 4.2 or 4.5 whatever the next one is gonna be 
is going to be fully POP3 but that one should have been 
here Deccember. If you find out before then please let me know!

>> For those who are following this thread, I think you are 
seeing how the  Traveller "random" world generation system 
forces us to think up explanations  to fit the facts. If we 
consciously made up worlds, then we wouldn't put a TL  1 
world next to a TL 15 world. When the dice (or the 
electrons) make that  situation happen, then the referee is 
forced to think up a reason why (as  several have).    Marc 
Miller   <<

Wow! He returns! <g>

Isn't geological and historical development also random 
world generation?

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| The trouble with nude dancing is that not everything stops   |
| when the music does. (Sir Robert Helpman)                    |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 97 14:36:17 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Picture this...

>> Picture your typical players making contact with a 
civilization that  has Lensmen. :-) <<

Instant warfare! My players would think the lensmen were 
"damn sneaky Zho mind-rippers" and the lensmen would think 
my players' characters were "evil corrupt self-serving 
Boskonian pirates". Ouch.

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| Love is the answer, but while you are waiting for the        |
| answer, sex raises some pretty good questions. (Woody        |
| Allen)                                                       |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 97 14:36:21 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: JTAS Appears

>> Well I haven't seen anyone else mention it so I will.  I 
picked up issue   #25 of JTAS at my local game store 
yesterday and it looks very good. <<

Well, that's good. It appears in local game stores well 
before being sent to privileged pre-paid advance 
subscribers. Whoopee. Oh well at least it looks like being 
worth the wait.

>> >Yeesss... The problem here is that the charisma won't 
go to the Vargr   >government leaders, it will go to the 
fleet commanders. 

At home the Charisma will go to the leader or at least some 
of  it will. <<

Sounds similar to the Olav hault-Plankwell business of the 
fleet commander gaining sufficient following among his 
fleet to be able to return and topple the government...

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer    |
| but wish we didn't.                                          |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 97 14:36:12 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Black Boxes

>> What would be the game mechanics of such a device 
(volume, cost, etc.)?  Comments, anybody?   <<

AFAIK This subject hasn't been done to death (D&D? :)). 

I'd think it a more useful thing for civvie ships than 
military ones. If I'd just won a fight with an enemy 
vessel, and it had ejected its' BB, I would surely spend a 
few seconds and a couple of rounds of laser turret fire to 
deny its' information to the enemy. After all, it would - 
by definition - be easier to locate; it'd be useless if it 
wasn't. 

For a liner, freighter, or merchantman, it would be a good 
idea. Of course, misjumps or similar would leave the BB 
stranded in jumpspace which wouldn't be a lot of help.

- -----------

Lewis Roberts defends his Liner design;

>> I have to admit I didn't know about baggage requirments 
for passengers and crew. If you want to fix this remove 114 
of the High Passengers and use that as cargo room. <<

I would have thought that someone designing ships for the 
second _official_ Traveller publication should have a 
working knowledge of all the rules pertaining to starships.

>> I am a much harsher person than Phil, becuase only the 
Captain and
First Officer are in singles. The rest of the command staff 
is doubled
up, and the crew is triple bunked.   <<

This is not going to make for a happy crew. If you're 
running a luxury hotel, you employ good quality staff. The 
same goes for a lux liner. Such top-notch crewers are not 
going to be impressed with double- and triple- occupancy 
accommodation. I think you'd either struggle to recruit the 
staff you need or end up with second-rate officers and 
complaints from your well-heeled passengers.

>> Don Perrin never told me that ships needed these [rescue 
balls]. Do any of the ships  in the book have these? I 
don't recall seeing any.  Also I think they  are pretty 
dopey, and the chance of them being used pretty slim. <<

This bespeaks a lack of co-ordination. The ball has been 
declared "canon", at least as far as this supplement is 
concerned, by the statements in its' design. And one of the 
supplement's authors doesn't know this. There should be 
consensus among the authors, surely?

>And note that the idea of a Luxury class passenger sitting 
in a notionally  >4 (or even 8) displacement ton cabin - is 
laughable (its 3 x 6 meters, and  >that doesn't allow for 
the 1 ton supposedly allocated to general passenger  
>spaces rather than cabin space - leaving that out, its 3 x 
4.5 meters)!

>> That [staterooms & 1 ton for general passenger spaces] 
is why the design of the ship includes a 9000m^3 Ballroom. 
(Its  about 2/3 of the size of the Ballroom of the Hilton 
in Atlanta. I  figured that out during the Crow II 
presentation at DragonCon Last Year)  The ship also has a 
500m^3 casino and a 500m^3 sports and rec center.  << 

None of this is going to make day-to-day life nicer for the 
passengers, just "excursions" or evening entertainment. The 
extra space applies to cafes, lounges, and so on. 

>> I realize some of the above details aren't in the 
Starship books. I  sent the complete design sheet to Don, 
but he didn't put any of the  details into the write up.  I 
did write up the flavor piece, but I  figured Don would 
change it around and include some of the details from  the 
design sheet.  I guess I figured wrong, well live and learn.  <<

>> I don't really like the new USP, I much prefer the FFS 
design listings  from TNE, it had much more detail to the 
listing.  <<

The problem does seem mainly to be in central 
co-ordination. I am not flaming Lewis here - or anyone, 
come to that. I agree whole-heartedly that the full 
descriptive texts doubtless produced by the designers of 
these vessels should have been included to give more detail 
to the listings. I also agree that the new design rules 
don't much appeal, though that's really a subjective, 
matter of taste thing. 

No, sorry, Starships isn't salvageable. Some of the 
deckplans are usable with much work; I may post up an 
improved version of one to my site if I get the time.

>> Again, there is no good reason why they can't publish 
the background  simulteneously or even *soon* (not months 
later) after the rulebook is out  on the street. <<

Except the manifestly obvious need to spend much, much more 
time and care producing the things to prevent the loyal 
customer base saying "bugger this" and peeling off.

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| His designs were strictly honourable, as the saying is;      |
| that is, to rob a lady of her fortune by way of marriage.    |
| (Henry Fielding)                                             |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #858
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, January 18 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 859



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
Re: Imperial navy reserves
Re: Black Boxes
Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
WINMAIL.DAT annoyances...
Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
Re: [T97#850] Vilani Cannibalism
Re: [T97#850] Re: Age, History, and Book Design
Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
Re: Black Boxes
Re: Imperial navy reserves
*Please* No more WINMAIL.DAT
Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #858
VDS TL-12 Fusion+ contragrav pogo stick.
[none]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:47:04 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

Joseph E. Walsh wrote:
> 
> Not to resurrect the task system debate [G], but I've been thinking about
> applying DM's based on the quality of role-play involved.  For instance,
> someone who, when his character is confronted with a ground car that
> requires repair, says, "So I fix it" might get a -2 DM.  Someone who
> says, "After disconnecting the thirbig line of the Fusion Plus module, I
> hook up the AutoDiag to the car's comp.  Discovering that it's a problem
> with the drive shaft, I grab my UniWrench and set to work" might get a DM
> +2.
> 
> What do you think?  Do you use a system like this?
> 
> -Joe
> 


I think its a good idea, but I'm a big character roleplayer.  This would
require some technical/universe knowledge on the players part, good for
indoctrinated players.  

This goes along with making sure your best characters don't bite it due
to dice rolls, but is less intrusive.  Maybe you could come up with a
quick "quality" index of descriptivess vs. bonus.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:55:48 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Imperial navy reserves

Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:30:51 +0000, Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>;
[Regarding Vacumm Weld]
>>But doesn't this assume bare metal?  If the surface was painted,
>>or otherwise coated, I'm not sure this would be a problem.
>>
>	I would have thought that if you're going to the touble of painting
>every
>metal surface in the ship, it would be easier to use the inert gas instead
>anyway.

That may be.  However, it may also be that all the "bare" metal is
coated at manufacture to prevent corrosion or that you briefly
fill the ship with a gas that coats the surfaces and then don't
worry about maintaining pressure.

Whether this is harder or easier depends on the what coating
agents are available at Traveller TL's.

>And removing the gas would be easier afterwards as well, surely.

You don't necessarily have to remove the coating.

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:10:30 +0001
From: "Nick Meredith" <nickm@discover.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Black Boxes

Hugh Foster wrote:

> I'd think it a more useful thing for civvie ships than military
> ones. If I'd just won a fight with an enemy vessel, and it had
> ejected its' BB, I would surely spend a few seconds and a couple
> of rounds of laser turret fire to deny its' information to the
> enemy. After all, it would - by definition - be easier to locate;
> it'd be useless if it wasn't. 

Easily fixed - a black box which ejects looking like a piece of 
debris, but which does not start to signal it's presence for some 
hours, or until a pre-defined period with no active sensors operating 
in it's immediate area has occured.
- -- 
Cheers
Nick Meredith - nickm@discover.co.uk - Coventry, UK

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:35:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Tom Lane wrote:

> I think its a good idea, but I'm a big character roleplayer.  This would
> require some technical/universe knowledge on the players part, good for
> indoctrinated players.  

True.  In my own games, the technical stuff, where not provided for in 
the rules, would be something that players would certainly be allowed to 
make up off-the-cuff.  Over time, these things would become standard 
aspects of the game universe I would be running. 


> This goes along with making sure your best characters don't bite it due
> to dice rolls, but is less intrusive.  Maybe you could come up with a
> quick "quality" index of descriptivess vs. bonus.

Good idea.  A simple chart giving five or so quality labels and 
associated DM's, with a few examples provided, would do the trick for any 
reasonably-imaginative referee (and if there are any referees out there 
w/o a reasonable amount of imagination, I don't want to know about it 
[G]). 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:49:07 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@csci.csc.com>
Subject: WINMAIL.DAT annoyances...

This isn't really Traveller related, but since this crops up, I'd like
to give out this info, and see it added to the FAQ:

HOW TO GET RID OF THE "WINMAIL.DAT" ATTACHMENT IN MICROSOFT EXCHANGE:

1.	Double-click on the "Mail and Fax" icon in "Control Panel".
2.	Click on the "Services" tab, and select "Internet Mail" from the
	list.  If "Internet Mail" is not listed, click "Add" to add this
	service.
3.	Click "Properties", and then "Message Format".
4.	Turn off the option that reads "Use MIME when sending messages".
5.	Click "OK" and then "OK" again.
6.	Double-click on the name of each recipient in your "Address Book".
7.	Turn off the option that reads "Always send to this recipient in
	Microsoft rich-text format".

Now, once this is done, Exchange will put equal signs "=" at the end of
each line.  To get rid of this last quirk:

8.	Open the "Internet Mail Properties" window, and click on the 
	"General" tab.
9.	Select "Message Format", and then "Character Set".
10.	Change the character set from "ISO-8859-2" to "US ASCII".

Sorry for taking everyone's time on a problem that isn't pertinent, but it
should help clean up the list.  Credit the "Windows95 Annoyances" site
for these fixes, that's where I found them (www.creativeelement.com/win95ann)
at...
- --
============================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,           (217) 351-8250 x2365 = 
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL       dmckinne@csci.csc.com =
= Winter War XXIV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 14-16, 1997 =
= Official Kibitzer and Archivist for Digest Group Publications            =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org       (217) 469-9917 = 
============================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 15:36:17 -0600
From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

Joseph E. Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> wrote:

> I've been thinking about applying DM's based on the quality of
> role-play involved.
> 
> What do you think?  Do you use a system like this?

For some reason whenever I referee a game of Traveller, the players
who role-play (instead of roll play) always seem to have an easier
time accomplishing things (and often have a chance to succeed when 
others don't)!

Weird, huh? ;-}

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@NASCRAG.ORG

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 97 16:56:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#850] Vilani Cannibalism

"Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu> hath scriven...

T::>Q:  "How do Vilani taste?"

T::>A:  "Biland."

 << Jeff groans as he pegs Joe with a waterlogged NERF(tm) beer
    bottle ->THWACK<-, from across the room. >>

T::>(Sorry.  Obscure Vilani linguistic pun; had to get it out of my system.
 ::> As it were.)

 Not obscure enough; I recognized it!  Next time you do that, I
 throw a _real_ beer bottle!

 :)

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  A day without sunshine is like night.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 97 16:56:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#850] Re: Age, History, and Book Design

pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant) hath scriven...

T::>Like a junky who thought he'd kicked the jones, I've been dragged back into
 ::>the Traveller habit by the release of T4. Since the summer I've been
 ::>crafting an insanely elaborate non-Imperium milieu, including a new future
 ::>history, several original alien species, and ideas borrowed from dozens of
 ::>contemporary SF sources (particularly Bruce Sterling's Shaper/Mechanist
 ::>stories, David Brin's Uplift books, various Greg Bear books, John Varley's
 ::>Eight Worlds, and so on). I'm also integrating lots of recent astronomical
 ::>data, such as the current view of the Galaxy's geography.

 Post it!  Tell us!  We're just as much junkies as you are!

T::>BTW: Someone suggested using Times instead of Helvetica for the body text.
 ::>That would be a slight improvement, but really both typefaces are just dead
 ::>boring. There are now many attractive and readable sans-serif fonts that
 ::>are designed for body text  - check out Syntax or Imago, for instance -,
 ::>and they're great for headings, too.

 That was me that suggested that, and it wasn't so much that the
 Helvetica was boring as that masses of it are just too hard for
 my 33-year-old eyes to read easily.  Certainly Times is boring
 - but it's _readable_ in quantity, and that's what I'm after.
 Even Optima would have been a better choice than Helvetica,
 but...

 I've never seen either of the fonts you name; don't take this
 as belittling your recommendations - it's plain that you have a
 bit more experience/exposure in the publishing field than I
 have.  I just don't want to end up with a headache after
 reading the entire book cover-to-cover in one sitting.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  I know the combination to your locked baud rate..

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 17:10:44 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

> For some reason whenever I referee a game of Traveller, the players
> who role-play (instead of roll play) always seem to have an easier
> time accomplishing things (and often have a chance to succeed when
> others don't)!
> 
> Weird, huh? ;-}


Yeah, really strange how the mouth-breathers find damage when they go
looking for it...

Tom Lane

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:13:37 +0000
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

At 13:33 18/01/97 -0600, Joseph E. Walsh wrote:
>Not to resurrect the task system debate [G], but I've been thinking about 
>applying DM's based on the quality of role-play involved.  For instance, 
>someone who, when his character is confronted with a ground car that 
>requires repair, says, "So I fix it" might get a -2 DM.  Someone who 
>says, "After disconnecting the thirbig line of the Fusion Plus module, I 
>hook up the AutoDiag to the car's comp.  Discovering that it's a problem 
>with the drive shaft, I grab my UniWrench and set to work" might get a DM 
>+2.  
>
>What do you think?  Do you use a system like this? 
>
	I will when I start my campaign soon, although my players are good
roleplayers (one of them currently GM's our D&D sessions!)

	Someone once asked about players who just sit there and contribute nothing
to the game in terms of roleplaying, except for maybe some particular
portion of the game, like combat, and what did we call these people. Well,
we call them "Steve", because Steve would just sit there saying almost
nothing during the whole session, and at any time an encounter occured, he
would look up and say those immortal words, "Can we bash?"

	See ya...


Bruce Lewis (bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:13:39 +0000
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Black Boxes

At 14:36 18/01/97 EST, Hugh Foster wrote:
>
Wrt Black Boxes...

>
>>> What would be the game mechanics of such a device 
>(volume, cost, etc.)?  Comments, anybody?   <<
>
>AFAIK This subject hasn't been done to death (D&D? :)). 
>
>I'd think it a more useful thing for civvie ships than 
>military ones. If I'd just won a fight with an enemy 
>vessel, and it had ejected its' BB, I would surely spend a 
>few seconds and a couple of rounds of laser turret fire to 
>deny its' information to the enemy. After all, it would - 
>by definition - be easier to locate; it'd be useless if it 
>wasn't. 

	To prevent destruction by the destroyers of the ship that the black box
was in, couldn't it be shielded to prevent detection? Plus it could be very
small - it's only carrying info - and shoved out at great speed when its
host ship blows, with thousands of dummy black boxes so that the attacking
ships wouldn't notice which direction the real one went in, or could it be
hidden among other debris even?

	And so that it can eventually be picked up, could it not be designed to
send out a signal that only an authorised ship can detect, like a code
embedded in the background noise of the static that permeates everywhere? A
bit like that Trek episode where Riker, Deanna and Llwaxana got kidnapped
by the Ferengi, and Riker sent out a signal that rode on the carrier of the
Ferengi ship's warp leakage signal thingy that darling Wesley detected.

	Therefore, we could have a black box system that has thousands of dummy
blackboxes embedded in some way in the hull of the ship, and the real one
could be shielded, or there could be say ten real ones, or a number of
black boxes that the attackers don't know about. Then each one emits a
rescue signal at different intervals, say, each one 12 hours after the
previous one so not all of them get blasted should they somehow be
detected, or they could be set to two days after the previous one, for
example. How long will the attackers wait around to see if they can blast
all of them? Not for long, that's for sure, when they've got others to kill. 

	Also, surely you'd only need one recorder, and the say, ten or hundred or
whatever storage chips would be linked into the recorder from where ever
they are on the ship (owner / captain stipulates possibly).

	Let's go overboard with this...if the destroying ship picks up a dummy
black box, it could contain a virus that makes itself known after they've
downloaded its contents, sending their ship into an uncontrolled flight
towards the local star or nearest big rock (think I'll do this with my
players!) or the black box could just say "wrong one suckers!"

	But, all this could prevent a lot of ship combat occuring, which let's
face it is a part of Traveller. Or could it actually be integrated into the
whole system anyway? Maybe attackers will only disable the defending ship,
thus preventing the black boxes from launching, and board it instead. Maybe
it would make it all the more interesting, you'd have ship combat, boarding
action, then hunting the swines down afterwards!

	What d'ya reckon?

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis

bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk , bejlewis@aol.com
Mobile Tel - 0956-506527          
From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:13:41 +0000
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperial navy reserves

At 11:55 18/01/97 -0800, David P. Summers wrote:
>Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:30:51 +0000, Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>;
>[Regarding Vacumm Weld]
>>	I would have thought that if you're going to the touble of painting
>>every
>>metal surface in the ship, it would be easier to use the inert gas instead
>>anyway.
>
>That may be.  However, it may also be that all the "bare" metal is
>coated at manufacture to prevent corrosion or that you briefly
>fill the ship with a gas that coats the surfaces and then don't
>worry about maintaining pressure.

	Yes, good point, and then things like valves and hatches and a few other
things I guess would still be checked just prior to mothballing, just in
case any coating has worn off or got scratched badly, as it could do with
iris valves.

	See ya...


Bruce Lewis (bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 97 17:05:31 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: *Please* No more WINMAIL.DAT

This has been mentioned before, but I must respectfully request, *please* 
those members of the list using that windoze mail program which attaches 
WINMAIL.DAT files to their messages *stop it*.

My hard drive has accumulated a dozen of these stupid things. They serve 
absolutely no purpose to me or 99.8% of this list. Think of how many 
person-hours are wasted by list members deleting these blasted files...

Would someone who is familiar with the offending program please inform 
the offenders of how to stop sending these files. 

(BTW this is I'm sure another example of microsquash arrogance in 
assuming every e-mail user uses their program, and therefore the default 
is set to use their protocols...)

- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 97 16:53:43 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

On 01/18/97 at 01:33 PM,  "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
said:

> Not to resurrect the task system debate [G],

Well, as you know I'm still working on my version.  ;-> I'll
probably post it sometime.

> ...  I've been thinking about applying DM's based on the quality
> of role-play involved.  For instance, someone who, when his
> character is confronted with a ground car that requires repair,
> says, "So I fix it" might get a -2 DM.  Someone who says, "After
> disconnecting the thirbig line of the Fusion Plus module, I hook
> up the AutoDiag to the car's comp.  Discovering that it's a
> problem with the drive shaft, I grab my UniWrench and set to work"
> might get a DM +2.

> What do you think?  Do you use a system like this? 

Yep, but I don't express it openly, I just apply it and let my *smart*
players figure out that more *roleplaying* leads to better results.  ;-> 

When it comes to fixing something, I'm big on hidden problems too. A player
that just "fixes it" is likely to end up treating a symptom rather than the
real problem, even if the "fix" seems to succeed it might not last. 
Players that explain *how* they go about fixing something...or at least are
sharp enough to ask me questions about what they see, feel, know...will be
more apt to find the hidden problem and get to a real solution.

Now, let me throw in a little bit about the task system.  I've taken to
adding different Attributes, depending on exactly what the PC is doing, to
the skill to achieve target numbers.  

Example:

The used gravcar your group bought begins to vibrate heavily at airspeeds
above 100kph.  The vibration seems to be coming from the right rear
quadrant,

1. Gravtics+INT to diagnoise the problem.

    Probably a misaligned grav unit back there.

2. Gravitcs+EDU to figure out the fix from the manual, schematics,
   or experience with fixing this kind of problem.

    Remove the grav unit and test the components, replace any you
    can't fix and tune the components into sync.

3. Mechanics+STR to remove the heavy grav unit for servicing.

    If the PC is asking the right questions she might notice that
    the flange that the grav unit was attached to is bent out of
    shape (Mechanics+INT).  This could lead down a blind alley...or
    to the *real* problem...or the PC could totally ignore/miss it.
    
4. Gravitics+DEX to test and realign.

    Discovering that the components are all good and seem to be
    still in sync.  
    
If the PC just replaces the unit, the problem will remain, but if he
continues to investigate.

5.  Electronics+INT to recognize the crimped power cable under the
    removed grav unit might be the true cause of the problem.
    
    The power cable is frayed, there's an intermittent short.  The
    grav unit is probably cycling on and off rapidly as it tries to
    cope with the shorting cable (Gravitics+EDU).  Maybe, maybe not,
    but it *certainly* will lead to a failing unit if it isn't
    fixed.  ;->

6.  Electronics+Dex to replace the crimped (and slightly frayed
    cable).
    
If the player *continues* to investigate...WHY is the cable
frayed?

7.  Mechanic+INT to notice the flange holding the grav unit is bent
    and might be rubbing the power cable.  A bent flange could be
    causing the grav unit to vibrate, and that might be causing the
    gravcar to shimmy (Mechanic+Edu)!
    
8.  Mechanic+STR to bend the flange back into proper position.

    If it breaks, then you've got to replace it! ;->
    
9.  Mechanic+DEX to weld a replacement flange back on.
    
    But why was the flange bent in the first place? 
    
And so on, and so on!  


This might seem like a lot of work, but the Technician and
Engineering PC's deserve to have some fun too!  Besides, I hide a good bit
of this from the player, doing the rolls myself based on what the player
tells me that her PC is doing.  The player might stop at any of several
points in the repair, or even continue further perhaps discovering that
this gravcar has a slightly bent frame, probably caused by a *very* hard
landing. ;->

If the player just says his PC "fixes it", I tend to make *poor*
assumptions about how completely the PC is doing the job.  If the PC plays
it out...even if she knows *nothing* about the subject...then I make *good*
assumptions about how through the PC is, and tell the player how the PC is
investigating and solving the problem.  The player learns how to ask the
right questions, make the right tests, and what to look for...for the
*next* time something like this comes up.

Hey Joe! You asked. ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 17:48:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Brawley <brawleyj@UWSTOUT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #858

>        This thing basically has Great White Hunter and Ernest Hemingway
>written all over it...  I figure that most people with normal testosterone
>levels would hire a gunbearer out of the local gym to carry it around the
>savannah, and wherever possible fire it using the bipod.  If the recoil
>numbers mean what I think, only a complete nutbar would try and fire it
>from the hip..:)
>
>      Well, I dunno about the 20mm comparison.  Originally, I tried to
>design it at .666 caliber, or about 16.9mm.  I quickly gave up when I
>discovered that the reciever would have weighed 30-odd kg.  I was basically
>going for a) a caliber that had three sixes in it and b) ludicrously high
>muzzle velocities.  At 6.66 mm, it is larger-bore than most modern assault
>rifles, but smaller than a lot of hunting calibers, so the projectile is
>not terribly big and heavy by 20th century firearm standards AFAIK.  OTOH,
>most gauss designs I've seen are in the 4-5mm range, so...  The projectile
>is relatively boring; it's just the muzzle velocity that makes it so nasty.
>        But it also points out one of the many failings of
>>FFS...regardless of anything else, many parts of the small (hah!) arms
>>design sequences are broken. Bipods for instance, should NOT mass at 8
>>kilos!
>
>        Yeah...  I noticed that the bipod seemed a tad heavy too.  I left
>it that way because I know nearly zip about gunsmithing, and because I
>didn't want to start fudging immediately.  I'll probably just adjust the
>values before I have people start shooting them at my players ;).
>>
>>FFS isn't completely broken, it's just that the equations all assume a
>>straight line where there is considerable divergence at either end of the
>>design scale. Unfortunately, given the 'Big guns...we gotta have BIG
>>guns!' sort of attitude most PC's have, that non linear region is where we
>>spend most of the design time.
>        Hm.  Any suggestions/homebrew fixes?

        IMOH the gun is long, heavy, and unwieldly.  With a damage of 10.5
(which rounds to 11) who is going to tell you that.  Firing from the hip or
the shoulder will be easy if you only consider the recoil, but unrealistic
if you consider real firearms techniques.  Were it real life (or you play
realisticly) you would only fire it prone or braced (like over a vehicle or
wall.  The recoil of 2 means that a average person (str 6) could fire three
shots controlobly and aimed with the lase sight (using TNE rules--sorry I
don't know T4.)  The recoil of three is not overly high, but does rule out
high rates of fire when shot off-hand.  But this shouldn't be bad since it
is a hunting/sporting/sniping rifle.  

        If you design it backwards from damage, to muzzle velocity, to
barrel size and reciever size, then pick a velocity, and use it to figure
the round size.  I think you might get a lighter weapon.  But that would
defeat your intention of having a weapon with 666 in it.  If you could go to
TL-13, I know that would make a huge difference in your required energy.   

The size of the round 6.66mm is not large at all for sporting rifles.  A
NATO .233" is 5.56mm and a .308" is a NATO 7.62mm so your round is a bit
smaller in bore.  A .50" is 12.5mm and some big game guns like the .458" and
.416" are up there is size too.  But this is sorta all moot since firearms
and gauss weapons are like apples and oranges.

Also IMHO, I think FFS doesn't take well enough into account the advances
that are in materials.  High TL (10+) weapons should weigh a fraction to
comparable weapons of low TL (6-8).  Carbon fiber, and carbon laminate have
higher strenths that steel at the same weight.  So if you need the same
strenght, weigh lots less.  I feel (with a materials minor/concentration)
that their TL modifiers aren't what they should be.  

that's my 2cr. worth.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:25:45 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: VDS TL-12 Fusion+ contragrav pogo stick.

        You can do some fun stuff with Contra-grav and Fusion+.  Just
imagine; a pogo stick capable of reaching orbit if you hotwire it (re-entry
might be a bit dicey).  And just think about how pissed off the Mothers
Against Grav Cycle Carnage are going to be :).


Famille Spofulam Toys & Games MegaBoing Grav Pogo Stick


                                  Vol.        Mass      Area      Power

Displ.:   0.016 Td (USP 1-2)      0.222 m^3        -         -        -
Volume:                           0.222 m^3        -         -        -
Config: Pogo stick
Dimensions:
- -Handles, shaft & spring: 1.5 m long, .03 m dia. (0.001 m^3)
- -Footrest/drive & battery housing: disk 1 m dia, .22 m high (0.22 m^3)
- -Electronics housing: 0.001 m^3 slab, mounted on handles
Struct. Material: Structurecomp
Chassis:                          0.05 m^3      0.05 T
Armour: None; child rides on outside, feet on footrest disk and gripping handle
Armour rating: none
Power plant: TL-12 Fusion+        0.01 m^3      0.006 T     -       0.05 Mw/
Prop.:
- -TL-12 C-grav (0.5T thr.)         0.01 m^3      0.0062T    0.01     0.0035 Mw
- -Tl-10 leg (spring)               0.0006 m^3
Crew: 1 child, (safety harness provided, helmet & goggles not included)
Options: TL-12 computer, radar altimeter & speedometer, tassels on handles,
glove compartment.

Totals:                           0.222 m^3      0.0622 T (62.2 Kg)
Cost: 0.002900 Mcr (2900 Cr)

Operational Acceleration: special: computer controls Contra-gravity drive
so as to balance pogo stick (within safe operational parameters to permit
some lateral motion) and to nullify 95% of external gravity field save
between moment where spring first enters into contact with ground and when
spring has compressed over 75% (adjustable by parents to provide for more
or less impetus) of its total travel.  Once spring (actually a TL-10
smart-fluid variable resistance shock absorption cylinder) has reached
parentally approved maximum travel point, thrust resumes to completely
nullify external gravity field until spring has reached full extension, at
which point thrust reverts to 95% of external field.

        Parentally programmed safety cutoffs cut drive once maximum
parentally approved altitude has been attained, and adjust velocity during
descent portion of trajectory to remain within parentally approved speed
limits.  Other safety features include deadman switches on the handles to
detect child losing grip, and a safety harness to ensure child remains on
board.  Pogo stick will not operate without harness being attached.

        Theoretical acceleration is 8 G's (7.5 or so with child on board).
This is only attainable by tampering with safety overrides and removing the
hardware governor.  FSG&T will not accept any liability arising from such
dangerous misuse and strongly condemns the sort of irresponsible mind that
would contemplate it.

Box: Comes plastered with advisory warnings against tampering in order to
allow child to reach orbit, advisory warnings against operating near
potentially hazardous obstacles such as trees, tall buildings, swamps and
large bodies of water, overhead power lines and airports.


        Design notes: credit for the inspiration goes to Ross Coburn, who
gave me the idea purely by accident, and now sorely regrets it.  I didn't
bother calculating the acceleration rating figures; I bet that 50 kg worth
of structurecomp ought to be plenty strong.  I also fudged the volume some
to leave a margin for error, and didn't bother doing the numbers for fuel
supply and the glove compartment; they're well within the margin for error
in the volume and chassis mass numbers.  And I didn't bother computing the
cost of the radar altimeter; this would be a simple device whose cost would
be negligible at TL-12.

       I did this with the beta VDS pdf file I downloaded from Joe Heck's site.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:41:40 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: [none]

>
>
>        And again, one question... how exactly do the recoil rules in TNE
>work?
>
take a gun with recoil 3, and a PC with Str 10

Shots in 1 combat round:

Shot	Shot's RCL	Total RCL	Penalty
1	3		3		0
2	3		6		0
3	3		9		0
4	3		12		-2 (10-12=-2)
5	3		15		-5 (10-15=-5)
6	3		18		-8 (10-18=-8)

Again, cept recoil 5 Autofire bursts, same PC.
Shot	S's Rcl	T Rcl	Penalty
1	5	5	0
2	5	10	0 (10-10=0)
3	5	15	-5 (10-15=-5)
4	5	20	-10 (10-20=-10)

penalty also applies on the shot which generates the penalty, IIRC.

Low Str characters may not get many shots without penalty.

1st shot is always at NO penalty. (Can't recal whther per round or engagement).

Reccomend getting "Small Arms" book for T:2k, as it has the rules for
recoil and damage and pen, and has LOADS of real-world stats.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:Aramis@Asylumbbs.com

Traveller, GURPS, Hero, WFRP, SFB, Star Wars, and Masterbook GM
Star Trek, B5, and Traveller Fan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #859
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 19 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 860



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Task Systems vs GM Choices
Re: VDS TL-12 Fusion+ contragrav pogo stick.
Re: VDS TL-12 Fusion+ contragrav pogo stick.
Re: Task Systems vs GM Choices
Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
Re: Imperial Navy reserves
Re: Retirement pay
Re: Mothballing and Tech Longevity
Traveller on IRC - Design Workshop I
Re: Traveller on IRC - Design Workshop I
Re: For immediate feedback
Re: Age, History, and Book Design
Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
Re: Vilani & Long Pig...
Re: Imperial Navy reserves
Re: JumpDrives/Space
Re: Imperial Navy reserves
Re: Novae / Neutron star systems ?
Re: Age of Traveller Players
WINMAIL.DAT
Rule of Man tech levels

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 15:19:19 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: Task Systems vs GM Choices

>Not to resurrect the task system debate [G], but I've been thinking about
>applying DM's based on the quality of role-play involved.  For instance,
>someone who, when his character is confronted with a ground car that
>requires repair, says, "So I fix it" might get a -2 DM.  Someone who
>says, "After disconnecting the thirbig line of the Fusion Plus module, I
>hook up the AutoDiag to the car's comp.  Discovering that it's a problem
>with the drive shaft, I grab my UniWrench and set to work" might get a DM
>+2.
>
>What do you think?  Do you use a system like this?

Joe: I'm surprised YOU need to validate such an opinion...

OF COURSE IT'S A GOOD IDEA! It encourages ROLE-Playing over ROLL-Playing...

In my own gaming, however, I don't apply penalties for poor, just bonuses
for good.

I do, however, keep mortally wounding PC's whose players fudge the dice...


William F. Hostman
Mailto:Aramis@Asylumbbs.com

Traveller, GURPS, Hero, WFRP, SFB, Star Wars, and Masterbook GM
Star Trek, B5, and Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:34:05 -0500
From: Ross Coburn <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Re: VDS TL-12 Fusion+ contragrav pogo stick.

You remain an utter menace.  I am presently re-working my tidy little 200td
vessel to be a 100td vessel, to see if I can.  If I can fit everythin into
100td, I will be impressed with myself, and Isaac will take some
Engineering courses.


Ross

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:36:04 -0500
From: Ross Coburn <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Re: VDS TL-12 Fusion+ contragrav pogo stick.

Apologies to the list for that last, I didn't notice that Darroch had
posted to me and it at the same time, and so simply replied.  I am now
wasting further baudwidth explaining all this, which goes to further
illustrate what a menace Darroch is to the free world as we know it.

I had nothing whatsoever to do with his bloody pogo stick.


Ross

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:40:08 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Task Systems vs GM Choices

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, William F. Hostman wrote:

> Joe: I'm surprised YOU need to validate such an opinion...

[G]  Well, it was just a way to start a conversation.  :)


> OF COURSE IT'S A GOOD IDEA! It encourages ROLE-Playing over ROLL-Playing...
> 
> In my own gaming, however, I don't apply penalties for poor, just bonuses
> for good.

Originally, my thought was to help with the task system problems 
(lowering the target numbers significantly - thus the penalties for poor), 
but it worked out to be very unwieldy (DM -6 and such).  Still, I continued 
along the line of thought and started coming up with a table so that 
there would be something concrete.  Then I decided to see if anyone else 
had a specific system they used.


> I do, however, keep mortally wounding PC's whose players fudge the dice...

Heheh.  That would be the least of the things one might do to such a 
player. ;)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:44:37 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Well, as you know I'm still working on my version.  ;-> I'll
> probably post it sometime.

I look forward to it.


> Yep, but I don't express it openly, I just apply it and let my *smart*
> players figure out that more *roleplaying* leads to better results.  ;-> 

That's a good method, but I was thinking along the lines of some rule 
that could be distributed; something concrete.  Maybe someone will write a 
JTAS article on it. :)


> If the player just says his PC "fixes it", I tend to make *poor*
> assumptions about how completely the PC is doing the job.  If the PC plays
> it out...even if she knows *nothing* about the subject...then I make *good*
> assumptions about how through the PC is, and tell the player how the PC is
> investigating and solving the problem.  The player learns how to ask the
> right questions, make the right tests, and what to look for...for the
> *next* time something like this comes up.

Oy, sounds like Engineer heaven! :)  I'm all for having less rules in 
general, but at times I think it'd be nice to have rules as detailed as 
the combat system for a lot of typical character activites.


> Hey Joe! You asked. ;->

Hey, always glad to hear your...unique...perspective on things, Eris. [VBG]


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:57:45 -0000
From: Liam McCauley <nerfherder@enterprise.net>
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

Joseph E. Walsh wrote:
> Not to resurrect the task system debate [G], but I've been thinking =
about=20
> applying DM's based on the quality of role-play involved.  For =
instance,=20
> someone who, when his character is confronted with a ground car that=20
> requires repair, says, "So I fix it" might get a -2 DM.  Someone who=20
> says, "After disconnecting the thirbig line of the Fusion Plus module, =
I=20
> hook up the AutoDiag to the car's comp.  Discovering that it's a =
problem=20
> with the drive shaft, I grab my UniWrench and set to work" might get a =
DM=20
> +2. =20

> What do you think?  Do you use a system like this?=20

Over The Edge uses a similar system in combat - as far as I remember, if =
your combat action is "I swing at it" or similar, you gain a negative DM =
for being boring.  If you say "I dodge under his guard and thrust my =
knife upwards between his ribs" then you suffer no penalty.  Of course, =
referees never suffer a penalty because they have so many NPCs to worry =
about :-).
I've run OTE a couple of times and this rule did seem to liven combats =
up a bit.

Similarly Feng Shui allows characters to try outrageous stunts with only =
a minor penalty.  Repetative actions are also penalised.  This helps to =
simulate the way-out action of HK movies and probably wouldn't be =
appropriate for most Traveller games (although I may be wrong).=20

Cheers,
Liam

P.S. thanks to Donald E. McKinney for explaining how to get rid of those =
pesky "=3D" at the end of each line.  I'm still not used to these =
microsoft PC thingies.

P.P.S. sorry for the spelling, but I've just returned from a party and =
am slightly "tiddly".
- --=20
Nerfherder@enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:33:22 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

David P. Summers wrote:
> >Per my wife, who's a mechanical engineer, vacuum welding can occur in
> >as little as 3-10 years. The majority of your 1000 year old ship would
> >be large masses of useless metal. :-(
> 
> But doesn't this assume bare metal?  If the surface was painted,
> or otherwise coated, I'm not sure this would be a problem.

Hmmm, it depends on how thick the paint is but I think you're right;
IIRC, vacuum welding primarily occurs primarily with metal to metal
contact. I really liked the post about higher tech materials not
being affected.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:36:25 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Retirement pay

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> Yes. In the integrated, fully consistent, Traveller economics system that
> I'm trying to work out, pensions are 20% of final pay for each term more
> than four served, up to a maximum of 100%.

Um, Hans? You are going to post this when it's done, right?
Pretty please?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:54:30 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Mothballing and Tech Longevity

Phillip McGregor wrote:
> Regardless of whether Virus exists or not, the thing defining TL16 tech
> seems to be that it, too, is much longer lasting than would normally be
> expected.
> 
> So this is the question - why?
> Well, *how* would these items last for so long? The answer seems to be that
> they must have some capacity for *self-repair*. In a limited sense they
> must be "alive". I would suggest that its the *electronics* alone that are
> most likely to be like this - and, while I doubt that they'd be alive in
> the sense that they were in the "Virus" descriptions we have   -- means
> that they would have to have some sort
> of inbuilt "template" for their circuitry and that this *could* become
> corrupted under the wrong conditions ... at least if the "right"
> precautions were not taken.
> 
> Perhaps it is simply that this was the Imperium, a TL15 culture, making its
> first tottering steps towards TL16 ... and eventually to something
> approaching the reliability of Forerunner level tech. It certainly puts
> "Virus" in a new light - and makes the pathetic anti-computer fears of the
> Regency and RefCol just that, pathetic ... superstitious drivel based on a
> lack of understanding (and, in the case of the RefCol, perhaps, a lack of a
> *desire* to understand) as to where the new tech had gone wrong. But, then,
> the Vilani have always had an anti-computer streak that the Terrans don't
> seem to have had.
> 
> Would Darrian computers have been affected by Virus? We don't know, as the
> Regency and RefCol and their era are years away from ever being broached
> again (and it can't be *too* far away for me!), and, anyway, since the
> Regency effectively cut itself off from the rest of the Imperium to protect
> itself from the Virus, thus "protecting" the Darrians from something that
> they may never have needed protection against anyway, we'll probably never
> know.
> 
> But would *ancient* level computers have been affected by Virus. According
> to the ludicrous way it seems to have been implemented in TNE, *yes*.
> According to my suggestion? NO! The Ancient computers would be a *mature*
> level of self-repair tech (if they haven't gone beyond that, in fact), and
> so would probably not even recognise the presence of viral code!
> 
> Anyway, its an idea that I thought might be of interest, whether you think
> Virus is garbage or not.

Phil,
The above makes sense to me. Although I personally found the concept of
self-aware Viruses running all over the Imperium an unlikely stretch,
the idea of self repairing equipment going haywire (ala a cancer) is
much more palatable. An evolution into a self-aware form would be
possible but only, IMO, under incredibly rare circumstances (like a
Referee Special). A Virus-controlled ship would be more of a rabid
animal running amuck rather than self-appointed assassins. In fact,
this behaviour describes the documented actions of the initial Virus
infections rather nicely.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:15:54 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller on IRC - Design Workshop I

Greetings!

Design Workshop I - Ship Building 101 has been scheduled!

System:  QSDS
Design: 100 ton Scout
Time:  8:00pm Easter Standard Time
Place:  IG's web server
           www.imperiumgames.com
           ports 6665 & 6666

Look for design specs on Commander X's homepage, under #traveller:

http://www.magicnet.net/~opp-mag/

Commander X will be giving a walk-thru to the design first, then 
holding a question and answer session after that.  

Look forward to seeing everyone there!

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:50:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Strnger357@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller on IRC - Design Workshop I

Regarding the Ship Building 101 class, did I miss the date or was it not
there?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:56:38 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: For immediate feedback

Garry Ward wrote:

> I was always under the impression, from CT forward, that the 1:100 & 1/1000
> limits were related to the structural integrity of the hull. Sticking more
> that 3 dt effective hole in less than 100 dt of hull tended to compromise
> the hull's ability to sustain damage or tolerate accelleration stresses.
> 
> Could be just differences in interpretation.
> 
> Garry

   My impression has always been that the 1:100/1000 figure was just a
nice round number that somebody pulled out of the dark of space.  It is
possible that it was explained away as you indicate, but I can find no
reference to such an explanation.

   I was attempting to explain, in game terms, the change from the
1:100/1000 ratio used in CT/MT to the surface area based system used in
TNE, and why Imperial vessels are basically underarmed for what they
could potentially in the way of weaponry.  It's interesting, but if you
use standard turrets, you can comfortably fit three turrets per 100 tons
displacement on a given ship using the TNE rules.  As the turrets in TNE
usually contain one weapon, and the turrets in CT/MT usually contained
three, the numbers sort of balance out, though you certainly get more
bang for your buck out of the TNE version.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 02:38:28 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Age, History, and Book Design

Jeff Zeitlin says,

>pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant) hath scriven...
>
>>Like a junky who thought he'd kicked the jones, I've been dragged back into
>>the Traveller habit by the release of T4. Since the summer I've been
>>crafting an insanely elaborate non-Imperium milieu,
[snippage]
>
> Post it!  Tell us!  We're just as much junkies as you are!

Well this is a tall order, and a bit complicated. Parts of this stuff - the
aliens in particular - I suspect will find their way into my science
fiction stories at some point, so I wouldn't want to throw them out on the
net just yet. Basically I'm using the game as a goad to make me flesh out
neglected parts of my on-going future history - it's very different from
Traveller (no FTL travel or gravitics, for instance), but the two futures
will overlap significantly in my game universe.

Other parts, such as an article on Clone Societies, I am considering
submitting to JTAS. If they don't want it, I'll be sure to send it to
Freelance Traveller or other such webzine. It needs another draft before
it'll be ready.

Any other stuff that might be useful to other Traveller referees, I will
certainly publish, one way or another. I hate to let all that work go to
waste on just a few game sessions :)

RE: astronomy stuff: you may remember, several months back I posted a
pointer to a very cool website about the Local Interstellar Medium. I don't
have the URL handy, but if you search for "Local Interstellar Medium" you
will find it. There's also a link to it from the 3-D Starmap site (also a
must-see): <http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html>

Anyway, the LISM site has some absolutely terrific maps of the local
galactic arm, out to about 500pc. I've finally found the book those maps
were scanned from: _The Guide to the Galaxy_ by Nigel Henbest and Heather
Couper (Cambridge, 1994). Not a cheap book, because it's packed with
gorgeous color astrophotography, but it has the best, most detailed maps of
various regions of the galaxy I've ever seen. An entertaining, in-depth
description of the galaxy's structure as it is currently understood. Highly
recommended.

Cool Astro-fact for the Day: there is only one known neutron star within
250 light years of Sol, the star 'Geminga' (short for Gemini gamma-ray
source, though it also means 'does not exist' in Milanese dialect). Geminga
is about 100 light years rimward from Sol. It is the relic of a star that
exploded some 370,000 years ago.

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."
                  -- Trevor Goodchild

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 04:24:20 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

> What do you think?  Do you use a system like this? 

Interesting idea, Joe, and I know that you are a big roll player.

I'm a little bit of both.  I think role playing is where it is at, 
but I also like good game mechanics.  Your idea may be a good 
marriage, but I'm not sure if I would use it.

What you're trying to do is encourage roll playing by giving players 
a tangible reward with game mechanics.  The best system that I've 
seen do this is in the second edition of AD&D.

In their experience point system for that edition, they allowed the 
DM leeway in the award of experience points from good ideas from the 
game session and good role play.

During my D&D campaign, my players and I delighted at the end of the 
night when it was time to award experience points.  It was a time to 
ponder the night's gaming and reward those for being creative--not 
only give them points for killing monsters, achieving adventure 
goals, or casting spells.  

The AD&D system had an impact on rewarding my players.  They got 
those extra 500 or so points after a game session that put their 
character that much closer to going up a level.  And, as you all 
know, when you go up a level in D&D, your character gets all kinds of 
benefit with the game mechanics--they can hit easier, they get more 
hit points, they get more abilities (spells, more attacks, etc.)

I've always thought that the Traveller experience point system needed 
some work.  One of the enjoyable things about D&D is that you can 
actually grow a character.  That is much harder to do in Traveller.  
Most of the growth of a character is done in character generation, 
which I love, but I'd like to see a better experience point system 
that would allow a Traveller character to grow.

The ones that I've seen in the different incarnations of Traveller 
just don't cut it.  And, I think that this would also be a good place 
to reward characters for creative play and good role playing.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 05:54:18 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vilani & Long Pig...

This sure seems to be a dirty little secret about the Vilani, doesn't it? So,
was it revulsion atr cannibalism that forced the Vilani to find out how to
prepare local foodstuffs so they would be digestible to humans? Or was it a
shortage of people to eat?

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:03:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

In mail you write:

>
>>Mothballed:  The ship has been completely shut down, pumped full of inert
>>            gas, bagged, and stuck inside a convenient asteroid.
>
>  Hmm, a question .. why instead of pumping it full of a gas(which would
> have to be pumped out, also) instead of just leaving it a vacume?

A vacuum is *not* a benign environment for anything designed to be in
an atmosphere. That includes the lifesystem of a ship. For just one
example, in a vacuum volatiles evaporate from plastics, making them
brittle. Fabrics don't do well either.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:39:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: JumpDrives/Space

In mail you write:

> 5. Traped in a alternate dimention, laws of physics slightly off kilter(i.e. 
> magic exists). Or a alternate history (ala "Sliders") universe.

Actually, there are several fun possibilities here, especially if you
have a well stocked gaming library. After the weird effects of the
mistake clear, you are floating in space near a star. As you start
scanning for a nav fix, you get a signal (probably on several *odd*
frequencies at once):

1. "This is Captain _____ of the Federation Starship ________, hailing
    unidentified ship...." (Star Trek universe)
2. "Imperial Star Destroyer Invincible to unidentified ship. Prepare to
    be boarded..." (Star Wars universe)
3. "Babylon 5 to unidentified vessel...."
4. A repeating distress signal. It's coming from an ellipsoidal vessel
   10 *miles* long, 5 miles wide and about a mile thick (Metamorphosis:
   Alpha)
5. "Moonbase Alpha to unidentified vessel..." (Space:1999)
6. Morse code light flashes from an odd looking ship with a *propeller*....
   "HMS Intrepid to unknown vessel do you require assistance..."
   (Space:1889)
(I can't think of any other SF:RPGs that have a developed background)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:15:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

In mail you write:

> Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:49:25 -0800, David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
>>>  Hmm, I wasn't aware of this .. How long would it take for 2 things to 
> weld
>>> together?
>>>  This could pose some problems for the typicial 'no life support abandoned
>>> 1000 year old ship' plot ;>
>>> bri <bri@teleport.com>
>
>>Per my wife, who's a mechanical engineer, vacuum welding can occur in
>>as little as 3-10 years. The majority of your 1000 year old ship would
>>be large masses of useless metal. :-(
>
> But doesn't this assume bare metal?  If the surface was painted,
> or otherwise coated, I'm not sure this would be a problem.

But you don't paint or coat bearing surfaces, nor do you do it on
surfaces intended to be pressure seals.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:37:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Novae / Neutron star systems ?

In mail you write:

> I would like your opinion/knowledge about some points.
>
>
> 1- When White dwarf is close to a red giant star, a novae effect might occur
> by transfering mass from the 'cold' giant star to the hot white dwarf
> surface.

Actually, the other star is *not* necessarily a red giant! It can be a
fairly normal main sequence star.

> What, is the probability of occurence in such an association, and
> what should be the effects on the planetarty system?

The two stars have to be close enough that the "atmosphere" of the
normal star bleeds over onto the dwarf. Once they are close enough for
gas transfer to take place, you *will* get novas.

The mechanism is that the hydrogen accumulates on the surface of the
white dwarf until the pressure gets high enough to ignite a fusion
reaction. Then *boom*. Depending on how fast it accumulates and other
factors, you get everything from reccurrent "mild" novas to the
collapse of the entire white dwarf to neutron star densities (which
results in total destruction of the white dwarf and a supernova (Type
II?) explosion).

Planets are in pretty sad shape to start with, as forming a white dwarf
means there's been some rather nasty things happen in the system
already. Think of it as carpet bombing with nukes.

> BTW, can a novae occure more than one time?

Yep. A number of stars have been observed having multiple novas. 


> 2- Does a neutron star have a planetary system?

Neutron stars form from supernovas (Type I?). This will pretty much
destroy any existing planetary system. Even planets bigger than Jupiter
would evaporate under those conditions.

But recent discoveries show that some neutron stars have planetary
systems that had to have formed from the nebula left behind by the
supernova. These will be *very* strange place, and likely rather fatal
for a ship that jumps in.

> 3- With a presence of another star, to provide light, which would be the
> effect of a neutron star in a system (let's say this is a far binary
> system)? (Pulsar effect?)

The *strong* magnetic field, which will *not* be aligned with the
neutron star's rotation, will accelerate particles anywhere near it to
relativistic velocities, producing *lethal* radiation levels. Also, if
you are within the magnetic field, it'll induce *massive* currents in
your ship, quite likely melting or even vaporizing it. 

From farther out, the jets of accelerated particles ejected by the
neutron star will be quite dangerous. 

The gas densities in the system will be quite high. Collisions with
high speed dust and larger particles will be far more frequent than in
a normal system. And the radiation will be high, partly due to all the
radioisotopes created in the supernova and scattered thru the system. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 06:20:39 -0500 (EST)
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Age of Traveller Players

In a message dated 97-01-16 12:36:55 EST, you write:

> ---Tim P. wrote:
>   I am 28 and have been playing AOL since ...
>  --- end of quote ---
>  Tee hee! Guess AOL is getting to him! :->
>  


<Best Homer Simpson impersonation I can muster>
Doh!!!

And, as a matter of fact, it is.  Also starting new job as computer tech rep
for high-finance company.  Have to learn new software systems and whole new
language (stock broker's <shudder>).  Add in a sick child and my parent's
being here for a couple of weeks <continued shudder> and I'm amazed I spelled
*AOL* correctly!  Obviously it is Traveller that I have been playing for the
past 13 years.

Ta,

Tim Peter

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 97 06:27:17 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: WINMAIL.DAT

Folks:

I've been having a real problem with the digest--a few kind souls have 
been sending their messages with WINMAIL.DAT attachments. This blows the 
hell out of the mailer I have and I end up with scrambled digest.

I've been retriving the last dozen or so via the archives, but would much 
rather contribute directly by e-mail! So can all the WINMAIL users turn 
off their attachment modes? Many thanks!

Fred Kiesche
(more or less a Traveller since 1997, so that would make 
me...er...38!...to continue the age thread)
(FKiesche@concentric.net)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:39:10 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Rule of Man tech levels

Phillip McGregor writes:
>Actually, in addition to the above, have you noted that in the Central
>Supply Catalog that there are several items listed that are basically
>salvage from the *Rule of Man* period some what, 800 odd years before! And
>they are still usable *and* safe to use. These are listed as TL14. So even
>at TL14 there must be stuff -- one of them is a Vacc Suit, IIRC -- that is
>self-repairing.

But the Rule of Man didn't reach TL 14! So any TL 14 equipment in the CSC
(which I haven't seen yet) must be recently invented prototypes. Or, more
likely, inconsistencies.

Of course, if TL isn't "level of technological knowledge" but rather "the
ability to manufacture goods of that level in quantities large enough to 
make them common on that planet" then I suppose it would be possible for 
Sylea to be TL 12 and still manufacture some TL 14 items. But I'd expect 
such items to be much more expensive than TL 14 items manufactured on a 
TL 14 world. Come to think of it, if TL 14 stuff can't be manufactured
locally, then working TL 14 relics ought to be VERY expensive -- does this 
agree with the price of those Vacc Suits and other stuff in CSC? If not, 
then they are definitely mistakes.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        
	"...every incident in this universe takes place with the specific
	intention with the specific intention to gain economic advantage.
	[...] Simply put, the foundation of all actions is economic."
				
			---Marc Miller's TRAVELLER, p. 7

	Well, they didn't claim that the economics had to make sense...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #860
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 19 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 861



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

ttne-spreadsheet update soon available
Re: Vilani and Long Pig
Re: Vilani & Long Pig...
Re: Vilani & Long Pig...
Re: ttne-spreadsheet update soon available
Re: Traveller on IRC....
Re: Vilani & Long Pig...
Re: Age, History, and Book Design
Re: JumpDrives/Space
3D Starmap Site
Re: Traveller on IRC - Design Workshop I
Re: Vilani and Long Pig
Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
Re: Vilani and Long Pig
Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
IG Website
Re: Imperial Navy reserves
Place to get old Traveller stuff (MT, some TNE)
Re: YIKES!!
Re:Jump Drives/Space
Re: Vilani Cannibalism
Re: US Army commando recruitment
Re: JTAS 25.
Re: Vilani & Long Pig...
Re: Vilani and Long Pig

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:48:33 +0100
From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se>
Subject: ttne-spreadsheet update soon available

	Hiya folks.
Soon there will be a ttne.xls update for those who got it from my
homepage(see at the bottom of this page). The reasons ar the following:

1. I found out a few bugs.
2. I wanted to fix the electronics part of the sheet so that you will get
all the numbers of a sensor for example complete with arrays and price with
only a push of a button. I wanted the spreadsheet to be so you don't have
to look into ff&s to make a ship. :)
3. I wanted it to the best fucking spreadsheet i ever created.

stay tuned for notifications of the update release on this mailinglist

Goran Sjoberg

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:00:57 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

Marc Miller writes:
>This sure seems to be a dirty little secret about the Vilani, doesn't it? So,
>was it revulsion atr cannibalism that forced the Vilani to find out how to
>prepare local foodstuffs so they would be digestible to humans? Or was it a
>shortage of people to eat?

I'd like to point out that Long Pig may or may not have been a taste treat
to the Old Vilani, but it cannot have been the foundation of the food
chain. Somewhere down the chain some person or beast has to chow down on
locally grown food. And if the "food Vilani" can survive on local produce
then there is no _necessity_ for anyone to survive on fellow Vilani, though
a small minority of them _could_ do so if they chose to. But Long pig would
either be reserved for a small elite or it would only be a Sunday treat.

OTOH, it is just the kind of urban legend that could easily arise. "You say
the Vilani can't eat the local food? What do they eat, then?" "I dunno.
Each other, maybe?" "Yeah, that makes sense!" :-)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
		"Certainly not,' Gub-Gub retorted.'Vermicelli Minestrone
		was a poet - a famous food poet. He married Tabby Ochre.
		It was a runaway match. But she stuck to him through thick
		and thin. People said she was a colourless individual and
		would stick to anything. But he loved her dearly and they
		were very happy. They had two children - Pilaf and Maca-
		roni. He was a great man, was Minestrone. His library con-
		sisted of nothing but cookery books -  cookery books of
		every age and of every language. But he wrote some beauti-
		ful verses. His Spaghetti Sonnets, his Hominy Homilies, his
		Farina Fantasies - well, you should read them. You would
		never say again there was no romance in food.'
		   'It's a sort of cereal story,' groaned Jip."

			   --- Hugh Lofting's "Doctor Dolittle's Caravan"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:32:03 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: Vilani & Long Pig...

Marc Miller wrote:

>
>This sure seems to be a dirty little secret about the Vilani, doesn't it? So,
>was it revulsion atr cannibalism that forced the Vilani to find out how to
>prepare local foodstuffs so they would be digestible to humans? Or was it a
>shortage of people to eat?
>
>Marc Miller

        I'd figure it was both; most human societies would begin by working
on the local foodstuffs: I mean, between barbequed Ross and a Big Mac, I'd
have to think a while... and probably go for the Big Mac.  Ross would only
have to start to worry after several weeks of Big Mac.

        So I think that after the Ancients' automatic pet feeders began to
break down or run out of food, the ancient Vilani would start experimenting
with local foodstuffs, losing a few people in the process, but probably
finding some that met _most_ of their dietary requirements.  Cannibalism
would, of course, occur _occasionally_ to fend off starvation.  Then, after
a while of eating dried pounded washed dried fermented dried Hoogaash root
exclusively, they'd start supplementing certain mineral and protein
deficiencies in their diet with cannibalism (and possibly do so out of
sheer gastronomic boredom)...  If they preyed on outsiders and deviants,
this would drive a) expansion (see the Aztecs) and b) conformistic,
communalist tendencies (because if you're part of the group and follow the
rules, you're safe).  All this time, the Shugilli would have a certain
amount of interest in coming up with new local food sources, and
eventually, would reach a point where cannibalism was  unnecessary, and
continued only for taste.

        After the Vilani eventually reached a fair semblance of
civilization (say TL 3-4), I suspect that cannibalism would become less and
less frequent (like Xmas dinner), and victims would be reserved to
criminals and nonconformists.  This would of course continue the
conformist/communalist tendencies in their society.  Further social
progress, and contact with non-Vilani humans, would eventually cause the
practice to die out, although certain secret societies of wealthy, powerful
gourmets would likely continue to eat people on occasion indefinitely.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 07:35:22 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani & Long Pig...

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> This sure seems to be a dirty little secret about the Vilani, doesn't it? So,
> was it revulsion atr cannibalism that forced the Vilani to find out how to
> prepare local foodstuffs so they would be digestible to humans? Or was it a
> shortage of people to eat?
> 
> Marc Miller

Given the "team environment" prevalent throughout Vilani culture, I'd
lean toward the first explanation. After all, it's hard to be a team
player when you may be dinner. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 07:37:09 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: ttne-spreadsheet update soon available

Goran Sjoberg wrote:
> 
>         Hiya folks.
> Soon there will be a ttne.xls update for those who got it from my
> homepage(see at the bottom of this page). The reasons ar the following:
> 
> 1. I found out a few bugs.
> 2. I wanted to fix the electronics part of the sheet so that you will get
> all the numbers of a sensor for example complete with arrays and price with
> only a push of a button. I wanted the spreadsheet to be so you don't have
> to look into ff&s to make a ship. :)
> 3. I wanted it to the best fucking spreadsheet i ever created.
> 
> stay tuned for notifications of the update release on this mailinglist
> 
> Goran Sjoberg

You go, guy! Give a holler when it's done; I'd love an updated copy.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 05:43:42 -0800
From: bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller on IRC....

Maybe this has been coverd .. but why not use EFNet instead of Undernet?
EFNet is signifigantley larger, and theirs more servers for it..
bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 06:02:19 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani & Long Pig...

At 05:54 AM 1/19/97 -0500, Marc Miller decended from the mountain to say:

>This sure seems to be a dirty little secret about the Vilani, doesn't it? So,
>was it revulsion atr cannibalism that forced the Vilani to find out how to
>prepare local foodstuffs so they would be digestible to humans? Or was it a
>shortage of people to eat?

Marc.. 

Why do you think the Vilani developed jump drive?

Interstellar munchie runs!

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   If I die and go to heaven, I will do what all     |
|  San Francicans do... I'll look around, and say to  |
|  St. Peter "it's nice, but it ain't San Francisco"  |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 06:02:21 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Age, History, and Book Design

At 02:38 AM 1/19/97 -0500, Glenn Grant wrote:

>Cool Astro-fact for the Day: there is only one known neutron star within
>250 light years of Sol, the star 'Geminga' (short for Gemini gamma-ray
>source, though it also means 'does not exist' in Milanese dialect). Geminga
>is about 100 light years rimward from Sol. It is the relic of a star that
>exploded some 370,000 years ago.

Hmmm.. the Niven fanatic in me wonders if this could be BVS-1 (from
"Protector" and "Neutron star").

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   If I die and go to heaven, I will do what all     |
|  San Francicans do... I'll look around, and say to  |
|  St. Peter "it's nice, but it ain't San Francisco"  |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 06:02:25 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: JumpDrives/Space

At 04:39 PM 1/18/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>Actually, there are several fun possibilities here, especially if you
>have a well stocked gaming library. After the weird effects of the
>mistake clear, you are floating in space near a star. As you start
>scanning for a nav fix, you get a signal (probably on several *odd*
>frequencies at once):
>
>1. "This is Captain _____ of the Federation Starship ________, hailing
>    unidentified ship...." (Star Trek universe)
>2. "Imperial Star Destroyer Invincible to unidentified ship. Prepare to
>    be boarded..." (Star Wars universe)
>3. "Babylon 5 to unidentified vessel...."
>4. A repeating distress signal. It's coming from an ellipsoidal vessel
>   10 *miles* long, 5 miles wide and about a mile thick (Metamorphosis:
>   Alpha)
>5. "Moonbase Alpha to unidentified vessel..." (Space:1999)
>6. Morse code light flashes from an odd looking ship with a *propeller*....
>   "HMS Intrepid to unknown vessel do you require assistance..."
>   (Space:1889)

7.  "Stand by for boarding. This is the Ukrainian Frigate Kiev, of the
Orbital Quarantine Council." (2300AD)
8.  From a Viking longship, conveyed by signal flags...  "You trespass in
the     Crystal Sphere of Lord Talhorst, state your intentions!" (Spelljammer)
9.  "This is the UPE Cutter Ghali, do you require assitance?" (GURPS:
Terradyne)

Next?

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   If I die and go to heaven, I will do what all     |
|  San Francicans do... I'll look around, and say to  |
|  St. Peter "it's nice, but it ain't San Francisco"  |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:59:50 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: 3D Starmap Site

Glenn Grant wrote:
> <snip> There's also a link to it from the 3-D Starmap site (also a
> must-see): <http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html>

Folks, the shareware at this site is impressive. There's a star system
generator (text-based) built for 2300AD that would go a long way to
helping any campaign based on exploration of unvisited star systems.
It includes a detailed alien race generator.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:02:47 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller on IRC - Design Workshop I

> Design Workshop I - Ship Building 101 has been scheduled!
> 
> System:  QSDS
> Design: 100 ton Scout
> Time:  8:00pm Easter Standard Time
> Place:  IG's web server
>            www.imperiumgames.com
>            ports 6665 & 6666

Ummmm, lets see.... What is missing here?  Oh, I know, a DATE!  Last 
time I write a post while I'm on IRC, I promise <g>

DATE:  Saturday, January 25, 1997

Thanks to those souls who were so kind to point this lapse out to me 
nicely!

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 10:21:23 -0500 (EST)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

I guess this means that the Vilani Cannibalism Theory is now "cannon":

>This sure seems to be a dirty little secret about the Vilani, doesn't it? So,
>was it revulsion atr cannibalism that forced the Vilani to find out how to
>prepare local foodstuffs so they would be digestible to humans? Or was it a
>shortage of people to eat?
>
>Marc Miller

I would guess that it was a matter of (1) efficiency and (2) sanitation, both
of which would be a little more urgent than revulsion.  I wouldn't rule out
major cultural/religious changes, of course, but:

(1)  Humans breed slowly and grow in size slowly, *and* have to be fed on other
     humans.  I have no idea how to check this, but my guess would be that a
     society depending purely on cannibalism for nutrition wouldn't be
     sustainable for very long.  Some vegetarians rail against the
     inefficiency of, say, the beef industry, because of how much grain it
     takes to produce a pound of beef.  Imagine if beef cattle, first, had to
     be fed on other beef cattle, second, had a gestation period of 9 months,
     and, third, didn't attain mature muscle development for 18 years...

(2)  When your meat animals can pass on any diseases or parasites they carry to
     you, you have a serious public health problem.  We don't really have to
     deal with this in our society much, with a few notable exceptions, such
     as pork and trichinosis, mad cow disease (maybe), and so on.  If we were
     eating humans, we would be able to catch *everything* they had.  Some
     tribes in New Guinea practice(d? officially anyway) ritual ancestor
     cannibalism; they wound up giving themselves slow viruses by eating
     their ancestors' brains.  (Do a Web search on "kuru".)  Especially where
     something like a slow virus -- Kuru, Creutzfeldt-Jacob -- is concerned,
     simply "cooking until the pink is gone" is not sufficient.


If the Vilani wanted to stay cannibals for long, they would have to find some
way to overcome the first problem and mitigate the effects of the second.

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:26:34 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

> I've always thought that the Traveller experience point system needed 
> some work.  One of the enjoyable things about D&D is that you can 
> actually grow a character.  That is much harder to do in Traveller.  
> Most of the growth of a character is done in character generation, 
> which I love, but I'd like to see a better experience point system 
> that would allow a Traveller character to grow.
> 
> The ones that I've seen in the different incarnations of Traveller 
> just don't cut it.  And, I think that this would also be a good place 
> to reward characters for creative play and good role playing.

In theory, I can agree with you.  I like the idea of a character 
growing and gaining more skills. However, the D&D tendency towards 
building walking indestructable tanks is something to be avoided in 
Traveller, IMO.  I don't want to end up with a character with level 6 
everything and able to do anything he/she sets his/her mind to.
  
I'm not sure what would constitute a happy medium, but you might try 
just being a bit more generous with the points awarded in the T4 
system, and, maybe, extend what skills you allow the points to be 
used  to try to improve.  Allen Shock is generous with his game 
points, he awards them after every session (not adventure) and it 
seems to be working well, if a bit more generous than I would be.

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 10:39:10 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

Pig is Gooooood!

I agree the Vilani probably had more that their share of forbidden
fruits in the past, and maybe even present among some well established
families who have aquired the "taste."  

The food chain does preclude human munchies as the only form of food. 
Big investement in edible resources raising humans.  However, a Soylent
Green scenario may be something to look at.

Perhaps this was one of the reasons the Terrans didn't like the Vilani
so well on first contact-they had them over for a feast:)  

"Pass the fred, will'ya?

Tom Lane

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:21:16 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

Joe, 
	You just hit upon the most ticklish part of gm'ing
roleplay....judging others' roleplaying abilities.  In my experience, I
don't apply a set DM for this sort of thing.  It really depends on what
the action has to do with the plot direction; I roll the dice and if it's
'close enough' which is an ifinitely variable number depending on
circumstances, I may figure that they got 'close enough' for the task to
succeed. If not, there's another variable region in the die roll that they
fail, but while failing see what's really wrong and can try again.

	OTOH, I NEVER penalize people for saying 'I fix it'...not everyone can
roleplay every thing...and people who don't role-play very well often
start picking it up when they play with others who do; so I'll never
penalize them for that.

	If it sounds suspiciously like my method (and madness) is 'just
wing it' you're right. IMO, since I'm GM I don't have to play by the
rules...just be <mostly> consistent. 'Mostly' because RL isn't always
consistent, either. The players let me know right away if I step over the
bounds.

	I tend to give roll-players fits and drive rules-lawyers mad, when
I gm, too.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:44:06 -0800
From: David Bullock <dbullock@cris.com>
Subject: IG Website

For any of you having trouble hitting the website...

Internic has the record messed up and is pointing to the wrong nameserver.
We'll have this corrected by sometime tomorrow I imagine.

There's a couple of work arounds:

1.	Access the site using it's IP address

	Name:     imperiumgames.com
	Address:  206.251.237.44
	Aliases:  www.imperiumgames.com

2.	Point your DNS server to OPX.COM nameserver (The hosts for the site).
Your mileage may vary on this one.

	Name:     ns.opx.com
	Address:  206.251.228.83

3.	Make an entry in your hosts file.  This should actually speed you up the
best.

	206.251.237.44		www.imperiumgames.com
	206.251.237.44		irc.imperiumgames.com
	206.251.237.44		imperiumgames.com





	

- - Dave

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:57:20 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> But you don't paint or coat bearing surfaces, nor do you do it on
> surfaces intended to be pressure seals.

Yes you do!  I just thought of this now, but we have a <current> tech
version of this that could be very valulable!

There's a lot of research going on now (and not a little commercial
development) over putting diamond coatings on things by 'spraying'
monoatomic carbon onto surfaces in high vacuum...the carbon crystallizes
out onto the surface in it's cubic diamond form. Very hard, very wear
resistant, and, I suspect, very, VERY resistant to vaccum welding, because
IIRC the sticky 'ends' of the carbon atoms on the outside are exposed to
hydrogen at the last of the process, making inert carbides.

I remember this because one of the practical applications, which is either
available now or 'real soon now' is coating eyeglass lenses with the stuff
to make them extremely scratch resistant. This is something I need ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:11:22 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Place to get old Traveller stuff (MT, some TNE)

I went to a local convention yesterday and bought a mint copy of Referee's book, players' 
book and Rebellion sourcebook for $20 for the lot. They had the seeker deck plans, and a 
few things for TNE. They also had the MT vehicle guide for $5.95 (Canadian)

Their mail order address is 

FOLIO INTERACTIVE
9251 Yonge St 8-130
Richmond Hill, Ontario
L4C 9T3
Canada

Phone 905-841-0068

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:12:06 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: YIKES!!

Tom Lane wrote:

> What did the two Vilani say when eating the clown?

Tastes funny

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:23:52 -0500
From: Steven K Pritchard <spritch@cinternet.net>
Subject: Re:Jump Drives/Space

>1. "This is Captain _____ of the Federation Starship ________, hailing
>    unidentified ship...." (Star Trek universe)
>2. "Imperial Star Destroyer Invincible to unidentified ship. Prepare to
>    be boarded..." (Star Wars universe)
>3. "Babylon 5 to unidentified vessel...."
>4. A repeating distress signal. It's coming from an ellipsoidal vessel
>   10 *miles* long, 5 miles wide and about a mile thick (Metamorphosis:
>   Alpha)
>5. "Moonbase Alpha to unidentified vessel..." (Space:1999)
>6. Morse code light flashes from an odd looking ship with a *propeller*....
>   "HMS Intrepid to unknown vessel do you require assistance..."
>   (Space:1889)
>(I can't think of any other SF:RPGs that have a developed background)

>- --
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

I just had to add this one in...

7.  Requests for help via com laser from a needle-shaped transparent ship
orbiting a ringworld. (Ringworld...anybody remember Chaosium?)

Steve Pritchard
http://www.cinternet.net/~mpritch

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.  Inside of a dog, it's too
dark to read."
						--Groucho Marx

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 97 17:27 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Vilani Cannibalism

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970115145142.5720B-100000@stimpy.us.itd.umich.edu>

> Q:  "How do Vilani taste?"
> 
> A:  "Biland."

A Vargr in my game could identify branches of Humaniti by taste. IIRC, 
Zhodani were slightly spicy, Solomani were salty, and Vilani were a bit 
tasteless.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 97 17:27 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: US Army commando recruitment

In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL06.199701151926520674@msn.com>

> Colin Hollands wrote:
> , i don't know how it works in the americas but if you join the forces over 
> here, you can't go streight into special forces (I.E. the SAS) you have to 
> have a parent unit which you have been with for a number of years first such 
> as the Para's prove your worth thier before applying

> In the US Army, Special Forces A school requires applicants to hold a rank of 
> Sgt. (E5) before being admitted to the course, plus appropriate 
> recommendations from the applicants commanders.  For officers it is a standard 
> branch assignment, and they are subject to the normal branch transfer system. 
> Ranger school is available to people straight out of basic/AIT, and although 
> it is highly competitive assignment to a ranger battalion requires no more 
> than being branched Infantry, graduation from Ranger school and a whole lot of 
> luck. Any moron can get into airborne school, and many do.

ISTR that there's a minimum rank you need before you can apply to the SAS (and 
presumably SBS). Corporal, I think. The entrance tests are also *very* tough.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 97 17:27 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: JTAS 25.

In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.88.9701160818.A24915-0100000@fujin.qub.ac.uk>

> I've just finished absorbing the copy of JTAS 25 that I got through the 
> post on Monday, and it wasn't as bad as I was expecting it to be. Here's a 
> brief review of the articles:

Have you noticed that, apart from the title, it doesn't mention Traveller on 
the cover at all? It just says 'Science Fiction'. Plus, there's no date, price, 
ISSN, or barcode.

> Vestiges by David W. Baker. - Not a bad adventure at all. Basically just 
> a bug hunt, but all the info, maps, and clues are well presented.

Psionic monsters (oops, spoiler!) are a bit of a cliche now. 

> Warden of the Everlasting Flame by Peter Schweighofer. - Nice fiction - 
> but it seems far too soft for Traveller's Hard SF setting.

Agreed.

> The Silver Moon Incident by Lew Wright. - Not a bad adventure, but it has 
> quite a few flaws. The adventure implies that there is an FTL radio 
> system in Traveller.

Plus cloaking devices and tractor beams. This isn't Traveller.

> Artwork. - I liked the interior art lots - Robert Daniels' work was very 
> Travelleresque. The cover art was pretty good too, but the styling of the 
> cover and the magazine in general was poor. I felt that a lot more could 
> have been squeezed into the mag, but it wasn't bad as a start. I'd lose 
> the fiction though and put in more adventures.

Traveller fiction is pretty rare; I'd like to see one story (but no more) per 
issue.

> Scores out of 5: Vestiges   4.
3
>       Warden          3.
3
>     Biotech       4.5.
3
>    Asym      4.
4
>    Silver Moon 4.
3
>    Beowulf         2.
4
>    Cargos       4.5.
4
>    Art: Ashe 4.
2
>    Art: Daniels    5.
5
>    Art: Foss 5.
5
>    Layout     2.
2

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:27:52 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani & Long Pig...

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> This sure seems to be a dirty little secret about the Vilani, doesn't it? So,
> was it revulsion atr cannibalism that forced the Vilani to find out how to
> prepare local foodstuffs so they would be digestible to humans? Or was it a
> shortage of people to eat?

Neither. The local food provided enough bulk, you just ate your neighbour to prevent 
vitamin deficiencies. The Vilani probably turned to cannibalism to survive and the clever 
people (who continued to experiment on local food) eventually weaned them off other 
people as they figured out how to turn inedible fibre into edible food.

BTW, I treat Vilani food as very high in fibre (explains the long lifespan, don't it?)
and tasting baguely of formaldehyde

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:32:10 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

Tom Lane wrote:
> 
> Pig is Gooooood!
> 
> I agree the Vilani probably had more that their share of forbidden
> fruits in the past, and maybe even present among some well established
> families who have aquired the "taste."
> 
> The food chain does preclude human munchies as the only form of food.
> Big investement in edible resources raising humans.  However, a Soylent
> Green scenario may be something to look at.
> 
> Perhaps this was one of the reasons the Terrans didn't like the Vilani
> so well on first contact-they had them over for a feast:)

We're havin' the Joneses over for dinner......and the Smiths for dessert

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #861
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 19 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 862



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
possible T4 errata?
Re: Vilani & Long Pig...
Re: Vilani, Log Pig, Nutrition, and Japan...
Imperial Marines (was: possible T4 errata?)
Re: possible T4 errata?
Re: JTAS 25.
Re: Vilani and Long Pig
Re: Imperial Navy reserves
Re: Vilani and Long Pig
Re: Imperial Marines (was: possible T4 errata?)
Re: Vilani and Long Pig
There are no primitive cultures
Multiple drives
Re: Vilani and Long Pig
Re: possible T4 errata?
Re: Vacuum Welding (was Re: mperial Navy reserves)
WINMAIL.DAT
Eris' Alternative Tasksystem (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:54:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> 	You just hit upon the most ticklish part of gm'ing
> roleplay....judging others' roleplaying abilities.  In my experience, I
> don't apply a set DM for this sort of thing.  It really depends on what
> the action has to do with the plot direction; I roll the dice and if it's
> 'close enough' which is an ifinitely variable number depending on
> circumstances, I may figure that they got 'close enough' for the task to
> succeed. If not, there's another variable region in the die roll that they
> fail, but while failing see what's really wrong and can try again.

I always used the same method; GMing as art rather than science.  


> 	OTOH, I NEVER penalize people for saying 'I fix it'...not everyone can
> roleplay every thing...and people who don't role-play very well often
> start picking it up when they play with others who do; so I'll never
> penalize them for that.

You're not much for beviorist psychology, eh? [G]


> 	If it sounds suspiciously like my method (and madness) is 'just
> wing it' you're right. IMO, since I'm GM I don't have to play by the
> rules...just be <mostly> consistent. 'Mostly' because RL isn't always
> consistent, either. The players let me know right away if I step over the
> bounds.

I guess it's a futile pursuit to try to put this into a concrete (or 
semi-concrete) set of rules, eh?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:25:33 -0000
From: Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk>
Subject: possible T4 errata?

Hi Travellers,

I've looked over the errata on Imperium Game's website and I haven't seen
the following points posted there.

First off, on page 25 of the T4 rulebook: Merchant Captain "full of bugs"
Jamison, it states on mustering out that Jamison receives a mid-passage?. 
Looking on the Merchant career table on page 31 there is no entry of
mid-passage in the benefits table.  There is however two entries for
low-passage, should the last entry at *6. Low passage* be replaced with
*mid-passage* (I'm sure a merchant could scrounge a mid-passage ticket as a
benefit).

Secondly, there seems no way for Marines to recruit officers from OTC or the
Military academy?.  The enties for these establishments only specify the
Army .  I presume that Traveller marines are based after American Marines,
and as I'm British I haven't a clue on the workings of American armed
forces.  Are Marines Officers only taken from enlisted ranks?.

I apologise if this has already been covered before.  Can anyone tell me
where a fuller version of the errata can be found?.

Cheers,

Jason 
- -- 
"Remember, the Amiga will be with you...always"

                           Obi-wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:08:03 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani & Long Pig...

The early Vilani would need other food, but humans might provide an 
essential link in their dietary chain.  

1) Having even a small amount of a complete protein in a meal makes the 
non-complete protein easier to digest (the theory behind the small 
amounts of meat present in much low income Chinese & SE Asian food)

2) Adult Vilani could provide essential nutrients that young Vilani need 
to mature (stolen shamelessly from Poul Anderson's story "The sharing 
of the flesh".

2 is a bit unlikely, but one makes good sense.  Human might be the only 
complete protein on the planet, and could be a necessary ingredient (in 
small amounts) to make fully nutritious food.  As always, the poor would 
get just enought to survive, the rich would have deviant-on-a-spit 
at least once a week.  In time (for fun, this could be as later as TL 3 
or 4) the Vilani learn how to make synthetic supplements, and eventually 
give up cannibalism (or do they...)


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:52:24 -0500 (EST)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Vilani, Log Pig, Nutrition, and Japan...

The most plausible scenario I can come up with is one where the Vilani were
able to digest one or two native grains after minimal processing (say, by
fermenting them... hic!) and used other Vilani as a primary *protein* source.
This might be sustainable for quite a while -- for centuries, the Japanese
peasantry got by primarily on millet, with some vegetables  for needed
vitamins and meat once in a *long* while.  Perhaps meat was reserved for the
warrior caste, mostly.

Though that could be a sustainable diet, the peasants would be undernourished
- -- hence small and weak.  The reproductive rate would be down, because
undernourished women become fertile at a higher age (18th C. Sweden = 19 years
old, for example) and less of their children survive.

Such a society would be at a distinct disadvantage against one with better-fed
people.  The _shugilii_-equipped society would be able to produce more food,
would have stronger and larger warriors, and would have a *substantially*
higher birthrate.  It would wipe the "protein cannibals" out pretty fast.

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:17:10 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Imperial Marines (was: possible T4 errata?)

At 02:25 PM 1/19/97 -0000, you wrote:

>Secondly, there seems no way for Marines to recruit officers from OTC or the
>Military academy?.  The enties for these establishments only specify the
>Army .  I presume that Traveller marines are based after American Marines,
>and as I'm British I haven't a clue on the workings of American armed
>forces.  Are Marines Officers only taken from enlisted ranks?.

In the US, Marine Officers come from three places:  The United States Naval
Academy, Marine Reserve Officer Traing Corps at universities around the
country, and from within the Corps.

Ask any grunt who the best officers are, and they'll always pick the
"mustangs" over the "trade school" lieutenants.

I beleive that this was the intention in Traveller.  you can't lead Marines
until you've proved yourself a Marine.  Perhaps officers are selected out of
Initial Training, or after 2 years of service...  I'm currently working on a
history and TO&E for the Imperial Navy Ground Force, so watch this space!

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   If I die and go to heaven, I will do what all     |
|  San Francicans do... I'll look around, and say to  |
|  St. Peter "it's nice, but it ain't San Francisco"  |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:37:18 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: possible T4 errata?

On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Jason Davies wrote:

> First off, on page 25 of the T4 rulebook: Merchant Captain "full of bugs"
> Jamison, it states on mustering out that Jamison receives a mid-passage?. 
> Looking on the Merchant career table on page 31 there is no entry of
> mid-passage in the benefits table.  There is however two entries for
> low-passage, should the last entry at *6. Low passage* be replaced with
> *mid-passage* (I'm sure a merchant could scrounge a mid-passage ticket as a
> benefit).

The table for the Merchant career is correct (since it was taken directly 
from The Traveller Book, and TTB's Merchant benefits table agrees with 
what is in T4), I would assume.  Rather, it appears the chargen sequence 
on p 25 is incorrect. 

That's my take on it anyway.


> I apologise if this has already been covered before.  Can anyone tell me
> where a fuller version of the errata can be found?.

The one on the web site is quite extensive, and it was actually compiled 
by a TML member (David Joseph Smart) based on submissions by other 
TMLers.  Naturally, that process may have missed a few items.  I believe 
if you send a note to webmaster@imperiumgames.com, David Bullock will add 
errata items to the list.  We can all do our part to make the next 
printing of T4 error-free! :)  (BTW, I'm CC-ing David Bullock on this 
message so he'll know about the error you spotted.)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:39:14 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: JTAS 25.

Andrew Boulton wrote:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.88.9701160818.A24915-0100000@fujin.qub.ac.uk>
> 
> > I've just finished absorbing the copy of JTAS 25 that I got through the
> > post on Monday, and it wasn't as bad as I was expecting it to be. Here's a
> > brief review of the articles:
> >
> > The Silver Moon Incident by Lew Wright. - Not a bad adventure, but it has
> > quite a few flaws. The adventure implies that there is an FTL radio
> > system in Traveller.
> 
> Plus cloaking devices and tractor beams. This isn't Traveller.

No, it's not. However, it *is* Megatraveller and TNE. Both had tractor
beams and repulsors and both had rules for using black globes as a form
of cloaking device.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:24:10 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

>
>I'd like to point out that Long Pig may or may not have been a taste treat
>to the Old Vilani, but it cannot have been the foundation of the food
>chain. Somewhere down the chain some person or beast has to chow down on
>locally grown food. And if the "food Vilani" can survive on local produce
>then there is no _necessity_ for anyone to survive on fellow Vilani, though
>a small minority of them _could_ do so if they chose to. But Long pig would
>either be reserved for a small elite or it would only be a Sunday treat.

        Yup, I agree.  If it was the foundation of the food chain, there
would have been no Ziru Sirkaa.  The local flora and fauna on Vland had to
have been capable of providing a diet that provided (at least minimally)
the nutrients needed to sustain human life.  However, if the dietary
advantages of cannibalism were such that Cannibilani were bigger, stronger,
longer-lived, and healthier than Vegevilani, Cannibilani would have a
serious advantage.  Where you get one group that's chronically mal or
under-nourished and one that isn't, the well-nourished group should do
better in the long term.  I'm not saying that Vilani were _exclusively_
cannibals; just that they probably ate other Vilani from time to time in
order to fully round out their diet.


Joseph M. Saul wrote:

>
>(2)  When your meat animals can pass on any diseases or parasites they carry to
>     you, you have a serious public health problem.  We don't really have to
>     deal with this in our society much, with a few notable exceptions, such
>     as pork and trichinosis, mad cow disease (maybe), and so on.  If we were
>     eating humans, we would be able to catch *everything* they had.  Some
>     tribes in New Guinea practice(d? officially anyway) ritual ancestor
>     cannibalism; they wound up giving themselves slow viruses by eating
>     their ancestors' brains.  (Do a Web search on "kuru".)  Especially where
>     something like a slow virus -- Kuru, Creutzfeldt-Jacob -- is concerned,
>     simply "cooking until the pink is gone" is not sufficient.


        Absolutely.  However, we know that no human disease organisms
existed on Vland; the Ancients probably thoroughly disinfected their pets
before importing them to Vland.  Thus, the long Vilani lifespan and the
Plague of Duskir.  So this does not preclude cannibalism.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:36:35 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy reserves

Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:15:41 PST,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson);
>> But doesn't this assume bare metal?  If the surface was painted,
>> or otherwise coated, I'm not sure this would be a problem.
>
>But you don't paint or coat bearing surfaces, nor do you do it on
>surfaces intended to be pressure seals.

Actually, bearing surfaces contain a coating of grease.  It's
just easier to do it that way than to create a lubricating
coating that won't wear off.  As to pressure seals, they
certainly can be coated.

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:54:28 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

>This sure seems to be a dirty little secret about the Vilani, doesn't it? So,
>was it revulsion atr cannibalism that forced the Vilani to find out how to
>prepare local foodstuffs so they would be digestible to humans? Or was it a
>shortage of people to eat?

Atually the Vilani could not have relied on cannibalism to survive
more than a short time (months? and it is not clear that any records
would even survive from this time to carry on the legend).
A society running on cannibalism is like a person eating
themselves to live.  Someone someplace has to be able to eat
local flora/fauna or the whole thing colapses (and fairly
quickly).  At that point, the Vilani have no more reason to
rely on cannibalism than Terrans do.

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:23:28 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines (was: possible T4 errata?)

I would definately like to see that history.  Does it continue through
the rebellion?

Officers are selected from enlisted only in Starship Troopers by
Heinlein.  Possibly a source for this idea in Traveller.  

Also Starship Troopers is being made into a movie, for anyone who cares.
Release date next year in the US.  I've seen a clip, and it looked more
like Aliens than Heinlein's starhopping romp with hyperecephalic
gorillas.  I wonder if it will be any good.

Tom Lane

Leave it to Hollywood to butcher my favorite books...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:28:18 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

Mmmm....pig is Gud...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:25:26 -0000
From: "Mark Archer" <M.Archer@btinternet.com>
Subject: There are no primitive cultures

Well very few, most of the planets in the Imperium (the Humans at least),
have fallen from a higher level,  So even if they are at say tech level 5
they may remeber (or carefully pass down), building techniques from there
original TL 9 (I can't think of any examples but...).  It could even be
strectched to explain why low tech level have such long endurances, "We may
may not have fusion like our ancestors, but our vehicles cn go just as
far!).  Well what do you think?

	-Mark

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:37:10 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Multiple drives

As multiple drives now are some sort of cannon in Traveller, I have
been thinking about its implication. As the drives are put up they
have their weaknesses and strengths.

Heplar - Uses a lot of power and reaction mass. But are not
neccesarily limited close to worlds. High IR signature.
=46usion Rocket -  Produces power. Cannot be used close to worlds and
shipping lanes due to radiation. High IR signature.
Thruster plates - Uses little power. No reaction mass. Limited to
proximity to gravity wells of stars and planets. No exhaust to disrupt
planetary atmospheres or nearby objects in docking. Low IR signature.

When we had MT I always wondered why there was thugs to haul larger
starships. But now it makes sense. Would you like to have a 30,000 ton
ship accelerating or maneuvering close to your spacestation if it went
on reaction mass. Much simpler to get a few thugs to maneuver the
starship to its docking position.

The Thruster plates also makes great aerospace fighters as they do not
have to rely on reactionmass to escape the gravity well. Their mission
endurance is extended. And they do not give off too much IR signature
either.

Works well with busy starports as well. Instead of having heavy
freighters with reaction mass drives landing. A few large shuttles
with thruster plates can do the job of freighting the cargo up and
down from the ship. And the starports do not need extremely large
areas for starships to land.

So I don't find it strange to have several types of maneuver drives
for the starship construction.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:40:45 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> >This sure seems to be a dirty little secret about the Vilani, doesn't it? So,
> >was it revulsion atr cannibalism that forced the Vilani to find out how to
> >prepare local foodstuffs so they would be digestible to humans? Or was it a
> >shortage of people to eat?
> 
> Atually the Vilani could not have relied on cannibalism to survive
> more than a short time (months? and it is not clear that any records
> would even survive from this time to carry on the legend).
> A society running on cannibalism is like a person eating
> themselves to live.  Someone someplace has to be able to eat
> local flora/fauna or the whole thing colapses (and fairly
> quickly).  At that point, the Vilani have no more reason to
> rely on cannibalism than Terrans do.
> 


Sure they do-the Vilani didn't need to worry about eating their own
society.  They ate the ones they conquered when they were barbarilani. 

You don't think they were a "we've grown beyond such barbarous things"
Deanna Troi Star Trek people who would never harm a fly, do you?  I
think they've got a NASTY little secret in their closet. ...NASTY...

Maybe they went to the stars for a snackie...:)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:07:19 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: possible T4 errata?

Joseph E. Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Jason Davies wrote:
> 
> > First off, on page 25 of the T4 rulebook: Merchant Captain "full of bugs"
> > Jamison, it states on mustering out that Jamison receives a mid-passage?.
> > Looking on the Merchant career table on page 31 there is no entry of
> > mid-passage in the benefits table.
         <snip>
> > I apologise if this has already been covered before.  Can anyone tell me
> > where a fuller version of the errata can be found?.
> 
> The one on the web site is quite extensive, and it was actually compiled
> by a TML member (David Joseph Smart) based on submissions by other
> TMLers.  Naturally, that process may have missed a few items.

Good catch, Jason! This was indeed one we all missed; it's been added
to my personal master copy of the errata. I believe someone else was
compiling errata for Starships/CSC but I've misplaced the email.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:09:56 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Vacuum Welding (was Re: mperial Navy reserves)

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:15:41 PST,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson);
> >> But doesn't this assume bare metal?  If the surface was painted,
> >> or otherwise coated, I'm not sure this would be a problem.
> >
> >But you don't paint or coat bearing surfaces, nor do you do it on
> >surfaces intended to be pressure seals.
> 
> Actually, bearing surfaces contain a coating of grease.  It's
> just easier to do it that way than to create a lubricating
> coating that won't wear off.  As to pressure seals, they
> certainly can be coated.

Also keep in mind that a higher TLs, frictionless surfaces become
available.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 00:08:02 -0000
From: "Mark Archer" <M.Archer@btinternet.com>
Subject: WINMAIL.DAT

Remember most people don't get there own messages back from a list when
they send 'em.  So be a kind soul and tell them nicely how to get rid of
the problem.

	-Mark
(Who hope he's not suffering from the same problem)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 97 18:05:57 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Eris' Alternative Tasksystem (long)

Hi,

I'm been tinkering with the T4 task system for some time now.  This is what
I've come up with.

There's a lot of text here, but please take the time to wade through it. 
The changes I'm proposing are significant, but don't involve major changes
in the way the game is played.

Anyway, please take a look at my proposals. try them out, and let me know
what you think.


Eris
- -- 

             A REVISED TASK/SKILL/CHARACTER GEN SYSTEM
                    for MARK MILLER'S TRAVELLER
                    
                    
Problems I see with the current system:
                    
1.  Impossible tasks aren't all that impossible for competent
    characters, and are fairly easy for exceptionally competent
    ones.  This might not be a major problem if the GM insists on
    several small tasks to accomplish a goal, rather than on one
    major task, especially when the Multiple Task rules are applied.
    However, simplicity sake, GM's often specify a single Impossible
    task rather than 3 or 4 Formidable tasks.
    
2.  Attributes (STR, INT, DEX, etc) play too important a part in
    determining a character's asset level for a skill.  With the
    average Attribute level of 7, the Attribute contributes:  88% of
    an 8 Target Number (Skill 1); 78% at Skill 2; 70% at Skill 3;
    and 64% at Skill 4.  Higher Attribute levels compound the
    problem, Attribute 10:  91% at Skill 1; 83% at Skill 2; 77% at
    Skill 3; and 71% at Skill 4.  Training, ie Skills, should play a
    larger role in determining a character's Asset Level.
    
3.  All characters learn every skill equally well.  This is
    unreasonable, as people certainly have varying aptitudes for
    each skill:  some people will pick up a skill very easily, some
    will find a skill extremely difficult to master, and most will
    be about average.  A character should have a specific *aptitude*
    for each skill they learn that determines how easily they can
    learn that skill.
        
4.  All increases in skill are in fixed steps.  No matter how apt a
    character is, there will be times when she learns more than
    normal and times she learns less.  Each increase in skill should
    have a random component that reflects the variability in a
    character's ability to learn, reflecting changes in the
    environmental, personal, and professional conditions affecting
    the character.
    
My proposed solutions:

1.  A. Increase the number of dice rolled for each difficulty level,
       and remove the .5d from the standard levels.

    B. Change the number and descriptions for the task levels.  I
       propose that there be 6 difficulty levels:
    
    Automatic (1d6) -   only unskilled characters need worry about
                        these tasks.
    
    Simple (2d6) -  unskilled characters will find these difficult,
                    PCs with some skill will find them easy to
                    trivial.
    
    Average (3d6) - unskilled PCs will find these almost impossible,
                    PCs with some skill will find them challenging,
                    and PC's with high skill levels will find them
                    easy.
    
    Difficult (4d6) - unskilled PCs will almost always fail, PC;s
                      with some skill will have problems, highly
                      competent PCs will still find them easy.
    
    Formidable (5d6) - these are challenging tasks for even
                       competent PCs, where they will often fail.
    
    Impossible (6d6) - only exceptionally competent PCs will have a
                       good chance with these tasks, for most PCs an
                       attempt at an Impossible task is an act of
                       desperation.
                       
    C. Tasks of difficult *between* the listed levels are modified
       by the addition of a 1d3.  Ex:  Very Formidable (5.5d); Above
       Average (3.5d); Very Simple (1.5d).
                           
2.  Increase the number of points that Skills contribute to the
    Asset Level (or Target Number).  On average, each increase in
    Skill will contribute 2 points to the Asset Level, but that is
    only the average. The actual number can vary from 0 to 4.
    
3.  Include a new Aptitude factor to the game.  When a PC acquires a
    new skill (or uses a default skill for the first time) they will
    determine their aptitude for that skill with the following
    ranks: 
    
    Low Aptitude (-1) - finds this skill naturally difficult, will
                        have trouble advancing in this area
                        
    Average Aptitude (0) - like most people this skill is of average
                           difficulty for this PC, will advance
                           normally in this area
                           
    High Aptitude (+1) - finds this skill naturally easy, will
                         advance quickly in this area
                         
    To determine Aptitude
    
    Option 1:  [Equal chances] Roll 1d3-2 (-1 to 1)
    
    Option 2:  [Weighted to Average/Low, realistic]
               Roll 2d3 (2 to 6) and consult Table
    
                           Roll   Aptitude
                           =================
                             2   Low (-1)
                             3   Low (-1)
                             4   Average (0)
                             5   Average (0)
                             6   High (+1)

    Option 3:  [Weighted for Exceptional Characters, cinematic] 
               Roll 2d3-3 (-1 to 3)
               
               An Aptitude of 2 makes an Exceptional Character, and
               one of 3 makes one of Legendary proportions.
               
    Option 4:  Use method 1 or 2, but allow a player to increase
               their aptitude for a limited number of skills by 1.
               I suggest the number of skills that can be increased
               be limited to no more than 6.  This allows for *some*
               tailoring of the PCs skills.
               
4.  Each time a Skill increases during Character Generation the
    player will:
    
    A.  Roll a 1d3
    B.  Add that Skill's Aptitude to the roll
    C.  Add the total to the Skill's current level
    

Example 1: Sol is learning Streetwise for the first time.

    1.  Determine Aptitude (1d3-2), Sol Rolls 1, and subtracts 2.
        His Aptitude is -1, or Low, he will have trouble learning
        Streetwise.  Sol writes Streetwise (-1) on his Character
        Sheet.
        
    2.  Learn the skill (1d3)+Aptitude, Sol Rolls 3, adds -1, giving
        him 2, he learned a lot this term.  He then adds 2 to his
        Streetwise total:  Streetwise (-1) _2_.
        
    3.  Later Sol increases his Streetwise Skill.
        A. Rolls 1d3+Aptitude, 2 + (-1) = 1, he didn't learn as much
           this term.
        B. Adds 1 to his total of 2, giving him Streetwise (-1) _3_.
        
    4.  Again Sol learns Streetwise.        
        A. Rolls 1d3 and gets 1.  1 - 1 = 0.  Sol learned *nothing*
           this time, no matter how hard he tried.
        B. Adds 0 to his total of 3 and Streetwise remains 3.
        
Example 2: Min is learning Gravitics this term for the first time.

    1.  Min rolls for her Aptitude (Option 2) and rolls a 5,
        consulting the table she she's that she is Average (0).  She
        writes Gravitics (0) on her Character Sheet.  Now Min rolls
        for her skill increase, 1d3=3, adds her Aptitude (0), and
        enters Gravitics (0) _3_ on her Character Sheet.

    2.  Min learns more Gravtics, rolls 1d3=1, adds her Aptitude
        (0).  She reflects that she didn't learn much this term, as
        she adds 1 to her total of 3 giving her Gravitics (0) _4_.
        
Comments:

If you use any of these rules, you should use them all.  The
increase in difficulty levels is *too* steep if you don't also
increase the number of skill points.  Increasing the number of skill
points without increasing the difficulty levels just makes the
current problems worse.  Simply mandating an increase of 2 for each
skill increase approximates the changes introduced by using all the
above rules, but leads to more boring characters.

These rules make unskilled (and low skilled) PCs less capable.  This
doesn't bother me, because IMO unskilled characters *should* have
problems.

Players occasionally will "load up" on certain Attributes that are
used most often in certain classes of tasks.  Frankly, I don't like
this kind of minmaxing, and apply the following rule to combat it.
Instead of having a specific Attribute attached to each skill, I
choose an appropriate Attribute for each use of the skill.
Gravitics usually uses EDU or INT, but under my system I might use
DEX (fine tuning a part), STR (pulling a stuck gravitor loose), or
CON (you've been up for 40 straight hours and are exhausted)
instead.

If you use these rules, it's best to use a fairly random method of
choosing skills.  A minmax'er can concentrate on a few skills and
produce PCs with exceptionally high Target Numbers...of course they can
do that with the original rules too.


Example of a Character (I did this as randomly as possible)

MIN LEE, 46 year old MERCHANT CAPTAIN

ATTRIBUTES      MONEY:  41,000cr
STR  6          
DEX  5          EQUIP:  LASER PISTOL
END  4                  CUTLASS (mustering out gift from company)
INT  A          
EDU  8          SHIP:   2 shares in a 200ton Free Trader
SOC  9
                                        (I didn't include SF here)
                       T4     TARGET   2d6    3d6   4d6  5d6   6d6
SKILLS      APT PTS  ATTRIB   NUMBER  SIMPLE  AVG   DIF  FORM IMPOS
===================================================================
PILOT       (1)  13    DEX 5    18     100    100    90   60    28
ASTROGATION (1)   7    INT A    18     100    100    90   60    28
GRAV CRAFT  (1)   7    INT A    17     100    100    99   84    21
GRAVITICS   (0)   6    INT A    16     100     98    76   40    14
SENSORS     (-1)  0    INT A    10      92     50    16    3    <1
COMPUTER    (-1)  3    INT A    13     100     84    44   15     4
ENGINEERING (1)   2    INT A    12     100     74    34   10     2
MECHANICS   (-1)  1    INT A    11      97     63    24    6     1
MEDICAL     (1)   3    INT A    13     100     84    44   15     4
TRADER      (1)   6    INT A    16     100     98    76   40    14
BROKER      (0)   2    INT A    12     100     74    34   10     2
LANGUAGE    (0)   3    INT A    13     100     84    44   15     4
ADMIN       (0)   1    EDU 8     9      83     38    10    2    <1
LAW         (-1)  2    EDU 8    10      92     50    16    3    <1
FAST TALK   (1)   4    INT A    14     100     91    56   22     6
BRIBERY     (1)   2    INT A    12     100     74    34   10     2
CAROUSING   (-1)  1    INT 9    10      92     50    16    3    <1
CRAFTMAN    (-1)  2    EDU 8    10      92     50    16    3    <1
EQUESTRIAN  (1)   3    SOC 9    12     100     74    34   10     2
MELEE CBT   (1)   2    STR 6     8      72     26     5    1    <1
PISTOL      (1)   4    DEX 5     9      83     38    10    2    <1

JOAT        (1)   4

[Notice how many times INT and EDU are called as the Controlling
Attribute!  In many cases of play I'd use other attributEs, foex.  DEX or
STR as the Controlling Attribute.  This will tend to lower or raise the
target numbers Min *actually* uses.]


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #862
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 20 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 863



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Hailings 
Re: [T97#853] Retirement Pay
Re: [T97#855] Idea for IG to get rich
Re: possible T4 errata?
Re: Eris' Alternative Tasksystem (correction)
Imperium Games site down again?
Re: There are no primitive cultures
Re: Imperium Games site down again?
Re: Revised Task System
CSC Question
TLs and the Rule of Man
Re: possible T4 errata?
Re: Imperial Marines (was: possible T4 errata?)
IG Website
USMC vs IMC
Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
Signed copy unsigned...
Re: Revised Task System Discussion (Long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:36:11 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: Hailings 

>Actually, there are several fun possibilities here, especially if you
>have a well stocked gaming library. After the weird effects of the
>mistake clear, you are floating in space near a star. As you start
>scanning for a nav fix, you get a signal (probably on several *odd*
>frequencies at once):
>
>1. "This is Captain _____ of the Federation Starship ________, hailing
>    unidentified ship...." (Star Trek universe)
>2. "Imperial Star Destroyer Invincible to unidentified ship. Prepare to
>    be boarded..." (Star Wars universe)
>3. "Babylon 5 to unidentified vessel...."
>4. A repeating distress signal. It's coming from an ellipsoidal vessel
>   10 *miles* long, 5 miles wide and about a mile thick (Metamorphosis:
>   Alpha)
>5. "Moonbase Alpha to unidentified vessel..." (Space:1999)
>6. Morse code light flashes from an odd looking ship with a *propeller*....
>   "HMS Intrepid to unknown vessel do you require assistance..."
>   (Space:1889)
>(I can't think of any other SF:RPGs that have a developed background)
>

7.	"this is Fleet Vessel _______. Stand by for contraband search."
	(Shatterzone by WEG.)
8.	"This is MLDS _____. Contact us if you can afford assistance."
	(Space Opera, with apologies to Phil... ;-)


and from the Board Games dept.:

9.	"This is TCS ____! How the HELL DID YOU DO THAT! Where's your Warp
Point???" (Starfire by TFG)

William F. Hostman
Mailto:Aramis@Asylumbbs.com

Traveller, GURPS, Hero, WFRP, SFB, Star Wars, and Masterbook GM
Star Trek, B5, and Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 97 19:39:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#853] Retirement Pay

Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com> hath scriven...

T::>The one point that has always seemed off, and they tried to fix it in =
 ::>TNE, is retirement pay.  A private retiring gets the same pay as Fleet =
 ::>commander.  Does everyone get the same pay in their careers despite =
 ::>rank?  I can see the desire for a simple character generation system but =
 ::>there should be some kinda modifier for the different ranks.  Anybody =
 ::>had ideas for this?

 Rich Ostorero had some ideas and analysis on this topic; he
 wrote an article for Freelance Traveller.  Check it out at
 http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller and check out the
 Features articles.  He does an analysis of retirement pay, whys
 and how much, and proposes an alternate system that accounts
 for rank differences.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Raise your IQ - eat gifted children.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 97 19:39:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#855] Idea for IG to get rich

Ethan Henry <ehenry@magma.ca> hath scriven...

T::>THis gives me an idea for IG - they should allow people to buy systems
 ::>and have them named after them! I wonder if First Survey have gone to
 ::>the printers yet...

T::>"Ok, so we're on our way to Lilly, where we pick up the Duchess, then
 ::>it's Jump-2 to Heck and another Jump-2 to Zetlin... hey, is that
 ::>system really called Planet-X ???"

 Take it a step farther - corporate sponsorships!

 - - - - - - - -

 "What do you mean, Apple and Microsoft are both red zones?
 They're both listed as major industrial trade hubs and computer
 exporters on this datasheet..."

 "The last few ships disappeared there - the Free Trader McAfee
 returned unharmed, but it reported something about a virus or
 something... then it self-destructed."

 - - - - - - - -

 "Cr1500/dt for low-grade unrefined fuel?  Remind me never to
 fill up on Exxon again!"

 - - - - - - - -

 "Y'know, we're only J3 from Disney - How about we head there
 for a vacation?"

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Sure, you can trust the government.  Ask any native.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 97 20:29:31 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: possible T4 errata?

On 01/19/97 at 02:25 PM,  Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk> said:

>  I presume that Traveller marines are based after American Marines, and
> as I'm British I haven't a clue on the workings of American armed forces. 
> Are Marines Officers only taken from enlisted ranks?.

I'm sure you'll hear from other, but the short answer is no, all Marine
Officers do not come from the enlisted ranks. Marine Officers in the USMC
come from several sources. Some are graduates of the Naval Academy. A few
are graduates of West Point (Army Academy). Many come through Officer's
Training Schools.  Of the ones coming through OTS, some are from the ranks
but most are from entering from colleges and universities.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 97 20:56:24 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Eris' Alternative Tasksystem (correction)

On 01/19/97 at 06:05 PM,  eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) said:

- -- 
Oh, how I hate typos! <g>

                                      (I didn't include SF here)
                        T4    TARGET   2d6    3d6   4d6  5d6   6d6 
SKILLS      APT  PTS  ATTRIB  NUMBER  SIMPLE  AVG   DIF  FORM IMPOS
===================================================================
ASTROGATION (1)   7    INT A    17     100    100    84   50    21
GRAV CRAFT  (1)   7    INT A    17     100    100    84   50    21



In case you want to check probabilities, here is a table you can use.

                       Cumulative Odds Table

     1d6   1.5d   2d6   2.5d   3d6   3.5d   4d6     5d6     6d6
================================================================
 1 | 16.7  ----   ----  ----   ----  ----   ----    ----    ----
 2 | 33.3   5.6    2.8  ----   ----  ----   ----    ----    ----
 3 | 50.0  16.7    8.3   0.9    0.5  ----   ----    ----    ----
 4 | 66.7  33.3   16.7   3.7    1.9   0.2    0.1    ----    ----
 5 | 83.3  50.0   27.8   9.3    4.6   0.8    0.4    0.01    ----
 6 |100.0  66.7   41.7  17.6    9.3   2.3    1.2    0.07    0.002
 7 |       83.3   58.3  28.7   16.2   5.2    2.7    0.27    0.015
 8 |       94.4   72.2  42.6   25.9  10.0    5.4    0.72    0.060
 9 |      100.0   83.3  57.4   37.5  17.1    9.7    1.62    0.180
10 |              91.7  71.3   50.0  26.5   15.9    3.24    0.450
11 |              97.2  82.4   62.5  37.8   23.9    5.88    0.990
12 |             100.0  90.7   74.1  50.0   33.6    9.80    1.968
13 |                    96.3   83.8  62.2   44.4    15.2    3.588
14 |                    99.1   90.7  73.5   55.6    22.1    6.076
15 |                   100.0   95.4  82.9   66.4    30.5    9.647
16 |                           98.1  89.9   76.1    40.0    14.46
17 |                           99.5  94.8   84.1    50.0    20.59
18 |                          100.0  97.7   90.3    60.0    27.94
19 |                                 99.2   94.6    69.5    36.31
20 |                                 99.8   97.3    77.9    45.36
21 |                                100.0   98.8    84.8    54.64
22 |                                        99.6    90.2    63.69
23 |                                        99.9    94.1    72.06
24 |                                       100.0    96.8    79.42
25 |                                                98.4    85.54
26 |                                                99.3    90.35
27 |                                                99.7    93.92
28 |                                                99.9    96.41
29 |                                               100.0    98.03
30 |                                               100.0    99.01
31 |                                                        99.55
32 |                                                        99.82
33 |                                                        99.94
34 |                                                        99.99
35 |                                                        99.99
36 |                                                       100.00


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:23:52 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Imperium Games site down again?

Maybe I missed the latest change, but when I tried to access what I
thought was the Imperium Games Web site (www.imperiumgames.com) my Web
browser barked back that it doesn't even have a DNS entry.

   Could our friendly neighborhood IG rep Mr. Walsh please fill me in on
what's up?

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:21:32 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: There are no primitive cultures

Mark Archer wrote:
> 
> Well very few, most of the planets in the Imperium (the Humans at least),
> have fallen from a higher level,  So even if they are at say tech level 5
> they may remeber (or carefully pass down), building techniques from there
> original TL 9 (I can't think of any examples but...).  It could even be
> strectched to explain why low tech level have such long endurances, "We may
> may not have fusion like our ancestors, but our vehicles cn go just as
> far!).  Well what do you think?

On first thought, I thought I'd have to disagree on this one. Case in
point is a comparison of the knowledge maintained in the Library of
Alexandria versus the level of knowledge during the so-called Dark
Ages. The Library is reputed to have had references to theories on
lasers as well as modern astronomy (the earth orbits the sun, etc.),
surgical techniques which make the doctors of the US Civil War look
like butchers, the formula for Greek fire (we *still* don't know the
exact ingredients), even atomic particles (well, actually an
unsubstantiated hypothesis).

On second thought, though, I pulled out my handy dandy Hard Times and
realized that the time between the 2nd and 3rd Imperiums wouldn't, in
most cases, be near as harsh. Sure you'd have some worlds become
boneyards or revert to barbarism but given the time frame involved I
don't believe it would be nearly as bad as the future (?) Civil War.

By the time the Dark Ages rolled around,

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:41:55 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Imperium Games site down again?

On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Harold D. Hale wrote:

> Maybe I missed the latest change, but when I tried to access what I
> thought was the Imperium Games Web site (www.imperiumgames.com) my Web
> browser barked back that it doesn't even have a DNS entry.
> 
>    Could our friendly neighborhood IG rep Mr. Walsh please fill me in on
> what's up?

As I understand it, InterNIC messed up the IP routing or something like 
that.  (Yeah, you can tell how web savvy I am[G].)

David Bullock sent out a msg earlier today about it, but it was only to 
subscribers to the web newsletter, and I'm afraid I deleted that msg. 
(BTW, it's highly recommended that everyone subscribe to that web 
newsletter; there's a place on the web site to do so - which don't help a 
whole lot right now[G].)

At any rate, the site should be available again by Monday afternoon (US) at 
the latest, according to David.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:16:07 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Revised Task System

>A REVISED TASK/SKILL/CHARACTER GEN SYSTEM
>                    for MARK MILLER'S TRAVELLER

While I, personally don't have a problem with attributes playing a major
role in determining success, I do dislike 0.5-die rolls and the term
"Impossible" for tasks that are actually quite simple for a highly-skilled
character. I do like your new task levels and descriptions, and can even
put up with the reduced importance of attributes. I also agree with the
suggestion of choosing an attribute appropriate for the use of a skill; but
doesn't the task system already say to do this on page 49?

It is not true that "all characters learn equally well" and "all increases
in skill are in fixed steps". Since you are rolling dice for skill
increases and you get several rolls each term, characters can learn
different numbers of skills at different rates in the same time.

I dislike the notion of an "Aptitude factor". I just don't see the added
overhead of a new attribute for every skill in the game contributing to the
enjoyment of playing. Real aptitudes tend to fall into categories like
"intuitive", "sensing", "aural", "mechanical", depending on which
educational psychologists you believe. I think it is very unlikely every
skill has a different aptitude. In fact, I believe the current method of
basing similar skills on the same attribute handles this problem much more
simply and realistically. The system already provides independent ranges of
skills and you can handle minimaxing by requiring players to roll randomly
for at least part of their attributes.

Also, as a player it would really bug me if, after a year of training, I
rolled a skill increase of 1 which an aptitude reduced to zero. What if I
have a level-0 skill and an aptitude of -1? Am I allowed to roll against
the skill? What if I learned a skill by reading a textbook versus having a
tutor? Do I also add literary versus conversational aptitudes? Can I train
aptitudes? Can I increase them through experience? Do non-humans have the
same aptitudes as humans?

And after all this work the chance of succeeding in a task is still mostly
based on attributes, you're just calling a portion of the attributes
"aptitude". I appreciate the effort and thought you put into the
suggestion, Eris, but I really feel you're putting a lot of work into
making a cumbersome fix for something that isn't broken.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:16:12 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: CSC Question

Could somebody explain "One-Way" from page 40 of the Central Supply
Catalog? It says "... it is designed to allow outgoing energy to pass
through it with as little disruption to its structure as possible. ... when
applied to the outside of a rigid surface it effectively adds 1 cm to its
thickness for outgoing kinetic energy only". It sounds contradictory;
shouldn't one of those "outgoing"s be an "incoming"? Shouldn't it depend on
the shape of the surface; it's much easier to punch out of an arch than
into one. Does this mean if I spray 1 cm of the stuff on 0.1 cm of bonded
superdense armor I got 1.1 cm of bonded superdense? Wow!

P.S. The CSC badly needs an index.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:54:47 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: TLs and the Rule of Man

Phillip McGregor writes:
>Actually, in addition to the above, have you noted that in the Central
>Supply Catalog that there are several items listed that are basically
>salvage from the *Rule of Man* period some what, 800 odd years before! And
>they are still usable *and* safe to use. These are listed as TL14. So even
>at TL14 there must be stuff -- one of them is a Vacc Suit, IIRC -- that is
>self-repairing.

Hans-Ranke Madison writes:

But the Rule of Man didn't reach TL 14! So any TL 14 equipment in the CSC
(which I haven't seen yet) must be recently invented prototypes. Or, more
likely, inconsistencies.

(Phil replies: So? According to CSC is *did* -- but only in some areas.
Forex, it never achieved Cold Fusion/Fusion Plus *at all*. I refer you to
the description of the EVA-14, page 16, for details).

Of course, if TL isn't "level of technological knowledge" but rather "the
ability to manufacture goods of that level in quantities large enough to 
make them common on that planet" then I suppose it would be possible for 
Sylea to be TL 12 and still manufacture some TL 14 items. But I'd expect 
such items to be much more expensive than TL 14 items manufactured on a 
TL 14 world. Come to think of it, if TL 14 stuff can't be manufactured
locally, then working TL 14 relics ought to be VERY expensive -- does this 
agree with the price of those Vacc Suits and other stuff in CSC? If not, 
then they are definitely mistakes.

(Phil Replies some more: Well, its like this. Like I've said all along, TLs
are *MEANINGLESS*. The Third Imperium is TL12, but has Cold Fusion/Fusion +
which the RoM never did, and it was TL12 {IIRC} from previous sources, too
- - and now we're told its TL13). Look, the whole TL thingy just doesn't
work, and *CANNOT* be made to work in the format it is in.)


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:14:04 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: possible T4 errata?

At 08:29 PM 1/19/97 -0600, Eris wrote:

>A few are graduates of West Point (Army Academy).

USMA West Point graduated its last Marine in 1979.  At that time, the USNA
took over exclusive training of Marine Candidates alongside the Quantico
Officer Training Course.



 
+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   Never trust a peasant with a loaded fruit pie!    |
|                                 -Terry Austin       |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 01:35:22 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines (was: possible T4 errata?)

Tom Lane 

> Also Starship Troopers is being made into a movie, for anyone who
> cares.  Release date next year in the US.  I've seen a clip, and it 
> looked more like Aliens than Heinlein's starhopping romp with
> hyperecephalic gorillas.  I wonder if it will be any good.

   I've seen the same previews.  Looks an awful lot like "Space: Above
and Beyond" with better lighting.  Of course I loved "Space", so maybe
I'll love this too--but I can already see that the troopers don't look
like what Heinlein described in the novel.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:31:21 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: IG Website

I saved this just in case.. this should take care of the mis-jumped IG page.

- -Doug

>>From owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Sun Jan 19 09:26:42 1997
>X-Sender: dbullock@mail.cris.com
>Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:44:06 -0800
>To: (Recipient list suppressed)
>From: David Bullock <dbullock@cris.com>
>Subject: IG Website
>Sender: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
>Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>
>For any of you having trouble hitting the website...
>
>Internic has the record messed up and is pointing to the wrong nameserver.
>We'll have this corrected by sometime tomorrow I imagine.
>
>There's a couple of work arounds:
>
>1.	Access the site using it's IP address
>
>	Name:     imperiumgames.com
>	Address:  206.251.237.44
>	Aliases:  www.imperiumgames.com
>
>2.	Point your DNS server to OPX.COM nameserver (The hosts for the site).
>Your mileage may vary on this one.
>
>	Name:     ns.opx.com
>	Address:  206.251.228.83
>
>3.	Make an entry in your hosts file.  This should actually speed you up the
>best.
>
>	206.251.237.44		www.imperiumgames.com
>	206.251.237.44		irc.imperiumgames.com
>	206.251.237.44		imperiumgames.com
>
>
>
>
>
>	
>
>- Dave
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:56:01 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: USMC vs IMC

>Secondly, there seems no way for Marines to recruit officers from OTC or the
>Military academy?.  The enties for these establishments only specify the
>Army .  I presume that Traveller marines are based after American Marines,
>and as I'm British I haven't a clue on the workings of American armed
>forces.  Are Marines Officers only taken from enlisted ranks?.
>
Not in the US. In fact, most of the US officer corps (<80%, according to
DOD data in 1987) are ROTC Commissions. Here, the marines come from NOTC or
USNA (acadamy) programs. Most of the "fromer enlisted" officers served 1
term, went to college, and went ROTC, according to DOD. (Was a high-scool
cadet... got lots of data of useless military BS.) US Marines have Highest
OCS enrolment numbers...

But when hashed out 3mo ago, I don't recall a real answer from IG/AP/SPA/MM
for the Imperial Marines...


William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 01:24:11 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

> In theory, I can agree with you.  I like the idea of a character 
> growing and gaining more skills. However, the D&D tendency towards 
> building walking indestructable tanks is something to be avoided in 
> Traveller, IMO.  I don't want to end up with a character with level 6 
> everything and able to do anything he/she sets his/her mind to.

Oh, I agree here as well.  I think that the perfect system, with 
constant gaming, would provide one, maybe two, chances to go up 
during a game year.  And, I think that the top end could be topped 
out similiar to how it is now done in the T4 main book--you make it 
harder and harder to go up a level.  

It is relatively easy at the low levels (but not too easy--you don't 
want to have a character with 40 level one skills either).  Then it 
becomes progressively harder to increase, say, from a 3 to 4, or even 
harder to increase from a 4 to 5.

The character may get one or two chances during the game year to go 
up, but if the skill is already pretty high, then it might take him 
one, two, three, or more games years to actually move it up because 
the throw is a hard one to make (over that period of time, he gets 
one or two throws a year until his level 4 skill achieves level 5).

  Allen Shock is generous with his game 
> points, he awards them after every session (not adventure) and it 
> seems to be working well, if a bit more generous than I would be.

No, I like awarding every session, but I want the points given to be 
less powerful.

Hmm.  I'm going to have to think about this and come up with a good 
system.

I'm making this my new project.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:40:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: PAUL WILLIAMS <p.d.williams@lancaster.ac.uk>
Subject: Signed copy unsigned...

Just got back from Christmas... huff, puff, hi everyone, happy new year.
I got my signed copy of the T4 rules (at last - I ordered them online in
August...) and I eagerly unwrapped it only to spend a long time looking
for a signature.... any hints guys? It's a signed copy, but there ain't
no signature. I waited nearly 5 months for nothing. Harrumph. Humbug.

Paul.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 97 02:24:39 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Revised Task System Discussion (Long)

Richard,

On 01/19/97 at 09:16 PM,  rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough) said:

> While I, personally don't have a problem with attributes playing a major
> role in determining success, 

Attributes should play a major role in determining success.  They should
not play the overwhelming role they currently play, IMO. That's why I'm
trying to reduce their influence, especially for characters with lots of
training.

> I do dislike 0.5-die rolls 

Can't say I much like them either.  Several folks and I have been kicking
around that subject for months.  ;-> I can see a use for them as "tweener"
difficulty levels, though...I can't remember who first proposed using the
1d3's in that role, but it was early last fall.

> and the term "Impossible" for tasks that are actually quite simple
> for a highly-skilled character.

A lot of people have a problem with that.  Frankly, an exceptional
character should be able to "do the impossible" in a game, but we've got a
situation where above average characters are exceptional and exceptional
ones are supermen.  

> I do like your new task levels and descriptions, and can even put
> up with the reduced importance of attributes.  I also agree with the
> suggestion of choosing an attribute appropriate for the use of a
> skill; but doesn't the task system already say to do this on page
> 49?

Yes, that is an option buried in the text on page 49.  However, I suspect
that was included as something to be used on occasional rather than all the
time.

> It is not true that "all characters learn equally well" and "all
> increases in skill are in fixed steps". Since you are rolling dice for
> skill increases and you get several rolls each term, characters can learn
> different numbers of skills at different rates in the same time.

We disagree here.  You don't roll dice for the *number* of skill increases,
or for how much you learn from any one increase.  You roll to pick out a
skill that will be increased, and that increase *is* a fixed amount.

For example, if your character and my character both receive Gun Cbt this
term, we both get 1 point.  You never get no points or 2 points for
receiving that skill.  You never get a different number of points than do
I. 

During a term you get 4 skill rolls, and I get 4 skill rolls.  I'll come
out with a 4 point increase in skills (or attributes), and you will
too...except for the strange -1's in some of the tables.  <g> Even if we
learn different skills our increases will be in lockstep with each other,
and that's not reasonable.  Well, it's not what I *want* anyway. <g> 

> I dislike the notion of an "Aptitude factor". I just don't see the added
> overhead of a new attribute for every skill in the game contributing to
> the enjoyment of playing. 

Again we disagree.  Did you try rolling up a character using the Aptitudes? 
I think you'd find there is very little added overhead.  There is an
additional roll and a notation on the Character Sheet when the skill is
first used/learned, and each time a skill is re-learned a 1d3 is rolled for
the actual amount of increase.

In fact, I find rolling the Aptitude is an exciting step.
"Piloting!  Oh man, I hope I roll High Aptitude on this one."  This method
also makes each skill increase more exciting, the increase varies on the
roll and the Aptitude so there is a question, "Will I get a 3 point or a 0
point increase this time?"  I see this as a feature, not overhead.

> Real aptitudes tend to fall into categories like "intuitive",
> "sensing", "aural", "mechanical", depending on which educational
> psychologists you believe.

<grin> You must not have been around when I was posting about
Aptitudes last fall.  I agree with you and would actually prefer to have a
set of 6 to 8 true Aptitudes as controls on the skills. However, that would
demand a major rewrite of the rules.  

What I'm presenting here is a compromise that doesn't require *much* change
in the T4 system.  The Aptitudes I'm proposing are total abstractions. 
They *represent* things like mechanical, charismatic, scientific, and
combativeness without actually expressing the actual aptitudes.

> In fact, I believe the current method of basing similar skills on
> the same attribute handles this problem much more simply and
> realistically.  The system already provides independent ranges of
> skills...

Sorry, I can't agree.  Right now the Attribute doesn't modify the Skill at
all.  All it does is add to the Skill and dominate the Target Number. 
There's nothing in the current system to handle a PC who's a "whiz" at some
skill but a "dunce" at another...even though both share the same
controlling Attribute.  And if you don't use the default Attribute, then
even that tenious linkage is broken.

> Also, as a player it would really bug me if, after a year of training, I
> rolled a skill increase of 1 which an aptitude reduced to zero. 

Yeah, it would bug me too!  <G> That's not an argument against it though.  

I don't know about you, but on rare occasions I've spent *many* hours on
something...sweated blood...and come out as clueless as when I started. 
I've also known people that spent a years in some job, supposedly
increasing some skills, with no visible results.  I had a boss one time
that always talked about the people whose career could be described as,
"One year of experience, twenty times."  As far as a game explanation for a
0 increase, well the PC could have been ill, distracted by other tasks,
just *didn't* get it, or simply goofed off.

> What if I have a level-0 skill and an aptitude of -1?  Am I
> allowed to roll against the skill?

Yes. On level-0 (default) skills you use 1/2 the appropriate
Attribute + the Aptitude...in this case -1.  If you're a charitable GM you
might let the PC use the full Attribute+Aptitude if you go to full dice
(Average being 3d6).  The -1 is the numeric indication that the PC has a
Low Aptitude in that skill.  Low doesn't mean NO, just less than the
average.

> Can I train aptitudes?  Can I increase them through experience? 

No. Some changes might be possible in *real life*, but with 3
discrete levels in the game I don't think allowing increase would work.  So
Aptitudes aren't normally increased or decreased.  I suppose a GM could
declare that some psychological event altered a PC's Aptitudes...a PC
recovering from brain damage perhaps.  In that case the PC might discover
that while once he loved Mathematics and Astrogation now he can't hack
them, and totally against past experience is more suited for combat.

> Do non-humans have the same aptitudes as humans?

Remember with this system the actual Aptitudes are totally
abstracted.  Non-humans would have their own set of real
psychological aptitudes.  Whatever they are they would still map,
abstractly, to the Low, Average, High scale as represented by the skill.  I
agree that non-humans might well *average* differently than humans, but
that's something that could be worked out with DM's in Alien Character
Generation.

> And after all this work the chance of succeeding in a task is still
> mostly based on attributes, you're just calling a portion of the
> attributes "aptitude". 

The Aptitude modifies the Skill, and the Skill actually earned is a die
roll.  You can call the Aptitude an attribute if you want, but it's not the
same kind of Attribute as those in T4.  It is directly linked to the skill,
and only that skill, and so it makes more sense to refer to it as part of
the Skill.

Attributes (T4 Attributes) still play a large part in Task
Resolution, just a smaller part.  The portion of the Task Number coming
from the Skill typically becomes the majority of the total at a Skill-3 or
4 level.  My preference would be to reduce the Attribute portion more, or
increase the Skill portion more rapidly, but that causes problems with
Tasks at either end of the difficult levels. If everybody was willing to
accept Impossible tasks being as easy as they are now, I'd push the Skill
component up faster.

> I appreciate the effort and thought you put into the suggestion,
> Eris, but I really feel you're putting a lot of work into making a
> cumbersome fix for something that isn't broken.

So we disagree, that's why they have horse races.  <g> What you see as
cumbersome, I see as an easy and fun addition.  What you see as unbroken, I
see as badly in need of a fix.

Thanks for looking my ideas over anyway.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #863
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 20 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 864



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Marines (was: possible T4 errata?)
Re: Vilani and Long pig
TANSTAAFLP (There ain't no such thing as a free Long Pig)
Re: TLs and the Rule of Man
Suppression Fire
Suppression Fire
Re: Signed copy unsigned...
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #863
Re: MM's involvement with T4
Re: YIKES!!
Re: Signed copy unsigned...
RE: CG Pogostick and other TL-12 toys!
Re: YIKES!!
Re: Suppression Fire
Re: Imperial Marines (was: possible T4 errata?)
Task System
Re: Rule of Man TLs
IG Merc/SAS entry
Re: IG Merc/SAS entry
Classic Traveller Auction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 97 02:29:58 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines (was: possible T4 errata?)

On 01/20/97 at 01:35 AM,  "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net> said:

> Tom Lane 

> > Also Starship Troopers is being made into a movie, for anyone who
> > cares.  Release date next year in the US.  I've seen a clip, and it 
> > looked more like Aliens than Heinlein's starhopping romp with
> > hyperecephalic gorillas.  I wonder if it will be any good.

>    I've seen the same previews.  Looks an awful lot like "Space: Above
> and Beyond" with better lighting.  Of course I loved "Space", so maybe
> I'll love this too--but I can already see that the troopers don't look
> like what Heinlein described in the novel.

I hate to say this, but you'll notice they waited until after Bob Heinlein
died to make Troopers into a movie.  I don't think he'd have let them do
what I'm afraid they are going to do to "Starship Troopers."  <sigh>  I'll
still probably go see it, maybe I'll be wrong.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:50:53 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long pig

Roderick Darroch Elliott writes:
> ...Then, after a while of eating dried pounded washed dried fermented 
>dried Hoogaash root exclusively, they'd start supplementing certain mineral 
>and protein deficiencies in their diet with cannibalism...

Mused <marz@hotstar.net> writes:
>...The local food provided enough bulk, you just ate your neighbour to 
>prevent vitamin deficiencies. 

Ah... If the local food dosen't provide the Cannibilani with vitamins, where
did the Herbilani get them?

Andrew Boulton writes:
>A Vargr in my game could identify branches of Humaniti by taste. IIRC, 
>Zhodani were slightly spicy, Solomani were salty, and Vilani were a bit 
>tasteless.
 
Great idea, Andrew, but I wonder if it holds water? I would think that the
taste of two members of the same species would depend a lot more on their
individual diet than on their race.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
		"Certainly not,' Gub-Gub retorted.'Vermicelli Minestrone
		was a poet - a famous food poet. He married Tabby Ochre.
		It was a runaway match. But she stuck to him through thick
		and thin. People said she was a colourless individual and
		would stick to anything. But he loved her dearly and they
		were very happy. They had two children - Pilaf and Maca-
		roni. He was a great man, was Minestrone. His library con-
		sisted of nothing but cookery books -  cookery books of
		every age and of every language. But he wrote some beauti-
		ful verses. His Spaghetti Sonnets, his Hominy Homilies, his
		Farina Fantasies - well, you should read them. You would
		never say again there was no romance in food.'
		   'It's a sort of cereal story,' groaned Jip."

			   --- Hugh Lofting's "Doctor Dolittle's Caravan"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:56:03 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: TANSTAAFLP (There ain't no such thing as a free Long Pig)

John R. Snead writes:
>1) Having even a small amount of a complete protein in a meal makes the 
>non-complete protein easier to digest (the theory behind the small 
>amounts of meat present in much low income Chinese & SE Asian food)
>[...] Human might be the only complete protein on the planet, and could be 
>a necessary ingredient (in small amounts) to make fully nutritious food. 

I know too little about the subject to argue cogently against it, but it
sounds to me like somewhere down the line someone is getting a free lunch.
(In other words, it may be true, but it sure ain't plausible ;-)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:11:55 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: TLs and the Rule of Man

Phillip McGregor writes:

>>But the Rule of Man didn't reach TL 14! So any TL 14 equipment in the CSC
>>(which I haven't seen yet) must be recently invented prototypes. Or, more
>>likely, inconsistencies.
> 
>(Phil replies: So? According to CSC is *did* -- but only in some areas.
>Forex, it never achieved Cold Fusion/Fusion Plus *at all*. I refer you to
>the description of the EVA-14, page 16, for details).

ince I haven't seen CSC yet, I'll have to leave that one alone.

>>Of course, if TL isn't "level of technological knowledge" but rather "the
>>ability to manufacture goods of that level in quantities large enough to 
>>make them common on that planet" then I suppose it would be possible for 
>>Sylea to be TL 12 and still manufacture some TL 14 items. But I'd expect 
>>such items to be much more expensive than TL 14 items manufactured on a 
>>TL 14 world. Come to think of it, if TL 14 stuff can't be manufactured
>>locally, then working TL 14 relics ought to be VERY expensive -- does this 
>>agree with the price of those Vacc Suits and other stuff in CSC? If not, 
>>then they are definitely mistakes.
> 
>(Phil Replies some more: Well, its like this. Like I've said all along, TLs
>are *MEANINGLESS*. 

Yes, you've said it before, but that dosen't make it true. TLs aren't
meaningless, as I showed in our last go-around on the subject, just a
tad confusing.

>The Third Imperium is TL12, but has Cold Fusion/Fusion + which the RoM 
>never did, and it was TL12 {IIRC} from previous sources, too

But Fusion+ is an example of the difference between knowledge and application.
The RoM could have built Fusion+ if they had happened to invent it, but they
didn't, so they couldn't. That dosen't mean they didn't have other TL 12
technologies. The capacitors needed to use drop tanks is another such example. 
According to High Guard you can build drop tanks at TL 9, but those capacitors
weren't invented until late in the 11th Century, nearly 300 years after the 
Imperium reached TL 15. 

>- - and now we're told its TL13). Look, the whole TL thingy just doesn't
>work, and *CANNOT* be made to work in the format it is in.)

Leaving that to a side, if the TL 14 stuff is sold at normal TL 14 prices
then they cannot be RoM relics. They must either be locally manufactured
or be an inconsistency. Personally I wouldn't make them available for my
players (If I was running a Milieu 0 campaign).



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:02:19 +0000 (GMT)
From: PAUL WILLIAMS <p.d.williams@lancaster.ac.uk>
Subject: Suppression Fire

Chatting to a friend on the phone last night I was reminded of the 
suppression fire rules in Shatterzone, makes for good firefights, keeping 
the enemies' heads down, testing their nerve by intimidation etc. The 
only other rpgs I remember with suppression fire were Recon and possibly 
Pheonix Command. I don't ever recall seeing any mention of suppression 
fire in any of the TRaveller universes, and I have an as yet badly formed 
idea that testing your opponents' coolness under fire & willingness to 
take risks might improve traveller combat which I've always found a 
little lacking. (Laserburn had coolness ratings & stuff too, and I 
suppose the Warhammer battle & 40k rules did too....) anyway, I just type 
'em as they come to me. I guess I'm just still smarting from the lack of 
signature on my signed copy (whine whine).

Cheers,

Paul.
xx

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:02:19 +0000 (GMT)
From: PAUL WILLIAMS <p.d.williams@lancaster.ac.uk>
Subject: Suppression Fire

Chatting to a friend on the phone last night I was reminded of the 
suppression fire rules in Shatterzone, makes for good firefights, keeping 
the enemies' heads down, testing their nerve by intimidation etc. The 
only other rpgs I remember with suppression fire were Recon and possibly 
Pheonix Command. I don't ever recall seeing any mention of suppression 
fire in any of the TRaveller universes, and I have an as yet badly formed 
idea that testing your opponents' coolness under fire & willingness to 
take risks might improve traveller combat which I've always found a 
little lacking. (Laserburn had coolness ratings & stuff too, and I 
suppose the Warhammer battle & 40k rules did too....) anyway, I just type 
'em as they come to me. I guess I'm just still smarting from the lack of 
signature on my signed copy (whine whine).

Cheers,

Paul.
xx

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 06:52:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Signed copy unsigned...

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, PAUL WILLIAMS wrote:

> Just got back from Christmas... huff, puff, hi everyone, happy new year.
> I got my signed copy of the T4 rules (at last - I ordered them online in
> August...) and I eagerly unwrapped it only to spend a long time looking
> for a signature.... any hints guys? It's a signed copy, but there ain't
> no signature. I waited nearly 5 months for nothing. Harrumph. Humbug.

Hi Paul,

IIRC, didn't they only say they'd sign the ones that were ordered before 
a certain date?  July 1 or something like that?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 05:45:18 -0800
From: David Bullock <dbullock@cris.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #863

>Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:23:52 -0500
>From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
>Subject: Imperium Games site down again?
>
>Maybe I missed the latest change, but when I tried to access what I
>thought was the Imperium Games Web site (www.imperiumgames.com) my Web
>browser barked back that it doesn't even have a DNS entry.
>
>   Could our friendly neighborhood IG rep Mr. Walsh please fill me in on
>what's up?
>
>Regards,
>
>Harold

Yes - I posted a message in the last TML digest about the temporary problem
originating with Internic (their database is screwed up) - and the workarounds.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:42:17 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: MM's involvement with T4

In a message dated 97-01-17 17:20:01 EST, you write:

> 
>  I mention this mostly because the whole idea with Traveller is that 
>  it's supposed to be being driven by ONE vision, Marc's vision. It
>  seems like Marc had a peripheral role in MT (though in all honesty 
>  I can't say I have any idea), no role in TNE and a rather distant
>  role with T4. Can Traveller's "vision" be maintained in this manner?
>  Or does it matter? 

This was the subject of a discussion this weekend with Imperium, in which a
revised process for product development was established (primarily because
people were writing product and then not showing it to MM before it was
published).

MM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:42:27 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: YIKES!!

In a message dated 97-01-17 19:26:20 EST, you write:

> 
>  Any way I was reading Imp Encyclopedia and ran across the numbers Aslan
>  Border wars -1118 to 380 so why is there no mention of them till much
later
>  (200 I think the new date is) so why the change?


The people who are doing the border wars are at the very edge of the old
empire and have not really been in contact with the Sylea people yet (as of
0). By 200, Sylea has expanded its contacts to put it in the thich of the
confluct with the Aslan.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 05:56:51 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Signed copy unsigned...

At 06:52 AM 1/20/97 -0600, Joe wrote:
>On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, PAUL WILLIAMS wrote:
>
>> Just got back from Christmas... huff, puff, hi everyone, happy new year.
>> I got my signed copy of the T4 rules (at last - I ordered them online in
>> August...) and I eagerly unwrapped it only to spend a long time looking
>> for a signature.... any hints guys? It's a signed copy, but there ain't
>> no signature. I waited nearly 5 months for nothing. Harrumph. Humbug.

>IIRC, didn't they only say they'd sign the ones that were ordered before 
>a certain date?  July 1 or something like that?

Before July 1st, as I recall.  I remember because my check bounced and I
made frantic calls to Lake Geneva begging them to give me another chance.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   Never trust a peasant with a loaded fruit pie!    |
|                                 -Terry Austin       |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:59:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: RE: CG Pogostick and other TL-12 toys!

Message from Commander X
(pay no attention to the title bar, or the man behind the curtain!)

>From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
>Subject: VDS TL-12 Fusion+ contragrav pogo stick.

>        You can do some fun stuff with Contra-grav and Fusion+.  Just
>imagine; a pogo stick capable of reaching orbit if you hotwire it (re-entry
>might be a bit dicey).  And just think about how pissed off the Mothers
>Against Grav Cycle Carnage are going to be :).


Heheheh...
Grav Pogo Sticks and Hoverboards!
What an age we live in! :)

btw, good show Roderick!  I like this toy! :)

Commander X, CEO of X-TEK Industries
maker of "Hoverboard" and "Happy Fun Grav Orb!"
(doh!)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:05:02 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: YIKES!!

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-01-17 19:26:20 EST, you write:
> 
> >
> >  Any way I was reading Imp Encyclopedia and ran across the numbers Aslan
> >  Border wars -1118 to 380 so why is there no mention of them till much
> later
> >  (200 I think the new date is) so why the change?
> 
> The people who are doing the border wars are at the very edge of the old
> empire and have not really been in contact with the Sylea people yet (as of
> 0). By 200, Sylea has expanded its contacts to put it in the thich of the
> confluct with the Aslan.
> 
> Marc

Hmmm...
I think I've mentioned it before, but I really wanna know, which sectors
and subsectors Sylea discovered and WHEN. So everybody playing any
milieu in any year knows, where the edges of "known space" are.
The list could have a format like

imp-date / sector / subsectors
0	core	A-P
....

The date says WHEN the sector/subsector has been discovered/included
into the imperium.

Any better suggestions?

Timelines provide some help, but not detailed enough for me (yes,
sometimes I can be a pain in the a** :).

Seeeya
Buddy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 06:02:53 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Suppression Fire

At 12:02 PM 1/20/97 +0000, Paul wrote:

<Ramblings about Supressive fire snipped>

T4 has the rules on page 56.  My prefered system is to have all the PCs
declare who many rounds are going into the beaten zone, and then when
someone enters that zone, throw dg equal to half the rounds expended.  Every
"1" is a hit.  Tends to shread the first guy, and simulates the natural
tendancy to shift and aim at the first target you see.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   Never trust a peasant with a loaded fruit pie!    |
|                                 -Terry Austin       |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:48:15 -0600
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines (was: possible T4 errata?)

writes:"Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>:
>> Also Starship Troopers is being made into a movie, for anyone who
>> cares.  Release date next year in the US.  I've seen a clip, and it 
>> looked more like Aliens than Heinlein's starhopping romp with
>> hyperecephalic gorillas.  I wonder if it will be any good.
>   I've seen the same previews.  Looks an awful lot like "Space: Above
>and Beyond" with better lighting.  Of course I loved "Space", so maybe
>I'll love this too--but I can already see that the troopers don't look
>like what Heinlein described in the novel.

   The movie shares the same name as the book, as do some of the characters.
That's about it.  No powered infantry armor (too expensive, money needed to
pay Verhoven's salary), just a bug hunt.
   Probably a decent bughunt, but don't expect any of the book's prose to
make it into the script.


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love."
 - Turkish Proverb   		http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:26:31 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Task System

Here's a radical proposal-well okay, not that radical. It's actually based
on ideas I've seen floating around the list, as well as some of my own.
        Some folks think that attributes have too much effect on the target
number. Leaving aside for the moment my basic disagreement with this
concept, I see an easy solution: DOUBLE the skill levels. TNE basically did
this, and it seemed to work ok. A level 10 would then be as good as a level
5 is now. The task system might then look like this:

Easy: 2D
Average: 3D
Difficult 3.5D
Formidable 4D
Staggering: 5D
Impossible: 6D

A character with a stat of 7 and what used to be skill 3 would then have a
(7+6)= 13 target number. Admittedly, I'm no math major, and this idea does
retain the 1/2 die (which doesn't bother me), and it also eliminates 2D6 as
the roll for average tasks. 2d was originally chosen because it was the
"standard" roll in CT. I do not think that is a good enough reason to keep it.

Another idea:

easy: 1d if level 0, auto if level 1+
average: 2D
Difficult 3D
Formidable: 4D
Staggering: 5D
Impossible: 6D

Keep the levels the same, just use the above chart. This has been suggested
before, many times I beleive. It also eliminates the dreaded half-die.

Comments?
                                Allen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:49:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Rule of Man TLs

> From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
> Subject: TLs and the Rule of Man
> 
> Hans-Ranke Madison writes:
> 
> But the Rule of Man didn't reach TL 14! So any TL 14 equipment in the CSC
> (which I haven't seen yet) must be recently invented prototypes. Or, more
> likely, inconsistencies.
> 
> (Phil replies: So? According to CSC is *did* -- but only in some areas.
> Forex, it never achieved Cold Fusion/Fusion Plus *at all*. I refer you to
> the description of the EVA-14, page 16, for details).

Again, I think that it's a question of TL representing AVERAGE TL across
many different types of technology - looking at Solomani & S&A, the Terrans,
when founding the ROM had jump-3, but no fusion+. They had more advanced
genetic engineering technology than most of the 3rd Imperium in the 1100s,
but they probably didn't have nuclear dampers. They had meson guns, but
probably didn't have very advanced gravitics. (I'd bet that the Terrans,
like a lot of other 'minor' races bought gravitic technology from the
Vilani and quickly came up with a story about how they had _just_ discovered
it back on the home world...)

> Of course, if TL isn't "level of technological knowledge" but rather "the
> ability to manufacture goods of that level in quantities large enough to 
> make them common on that planet" then I suppose it would be possible for 
> Sylea to be TL 12 and still manufacture some TL 14 items. But I'd expect 
> such items to be much more expensive than TL 14 items manufactured on a 
> TL 14 world. Come to think of it, if TL 14 stuff can't be manufactured
> locally, then working TL 14 relics ought to be VERY expensive -- does this 
> agree with the price of those Vacc Suits and other stuff in CSC? If not, 
> then they are definitely mistakes.
> 
> (Phil Replies some more: Well, its like this. Like I've said all along, TLs
> are *MEANINGLESS*. The Third Imperium is TL12, but has Cold Fusion/Fusion +
> which the RoM never did, and it was TL12 {IIRC} from previous sources, too
> - - and now we're told its TL13). Look, the whole TL thingy just doesn't
> work, and *CANNOT* be made to work in the format it is in.)

Tech levels are obviously simplifications. So are all the Traveller skills,
attributes, cargo prices, world UPPs, etc, etc, etc. I mean, do you
seriously think that just because some character had computer-4 they have
an equal chance of success at any task involving a computer?? Of that
engineering lets you work on any kind of jump drive that has been manufactured
on one of several dozen planets with vastly different technological
infrastructures?

If you want more detail, do what the MT World Builder's Handbook does - break 
TLs down into smaller technological fields - Medical TL, Energy TL,
Weaponry TL, Space tech TL, Computer TL, Fork TL, Knife TL, Spoon TL...

Anyways, using a simplified TL rating is no more broken than using
character and planetary UPPs.

Ethan
- --
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:15:33 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: IG Merc/SAS entry

As to the T4 Hardback signing, it should be above the banner at the front
of the book before the credits (At least that is where Marc signed it on my
9 copies, (I was buying bulk for friends as well as my self).

As to T-shirts, I sent my USD International Money order to IG on 1 Aug
1996, and heard nothing until Courtney/Ann sent an e-mail in reply to my
query on 26/11/96 saying they would ship '3rd Week of December', and then
another E-mail on 16/01/97 saying they will definatly ship 'this month', I
await in Antissssssipation.(there's an idea for an alternative universe -
Next stop Planet Transexual...)

BTW i like this list, some of it is way to Techie for my use but
interesting all the same, I agree with the Task system, it does need some
sort of modification, I personally took Andy Lilly's sugestion to me at
Euro Gencon and split the task down into subtask's but as pointed out
sometimes this is not possible, and you need an alternative method.

I've noticed that we seem to have an awfull lot of Scientist type people on
the list (bods working for NASA/Observatories and such like judging by
comments and mail addresses), i'm just wondering if all this Science
Fiction will become Science Fact, in the same way that Jeules Verne has
with 2000 leagues and journey to the moon (if i got the titles wrong, i'm
sorry it's been a long time since i read them) - they sparked people's
tinkering tendencies. (apaloggies for the spilling but i don't trust my
spill chequer, it wants to make Techies into Tetchiest, Colin into Colon
etc.) I use Eudora 3.0 but i'm not sure if its an internal Spell checker or
external, (although looking at Options i would say internal), However it is
<insert Expletive> annoying.

Sorry if my comments on Weekend stuff are so out of date, but i only pick
the digest up on a Monday morning and it takes till luchtime just to read
the mail, i do skip most of the reposted bits having been reminded what the
post was originally about.

On SAS entry, as far as i know and having read books like Bravo 2 Zero
there is no minimum rank qualification, just an extremly tuff entry program
as i say according to the books it's two years training and about 97
percent dropout, that's why there is only one SAS Regular regiment with
between 500-1000 people split between i think 3 companies and then there is
also a Territorial Army (TA) SAS Regiment which does a lot of training with
the Reg SAS, for those of you who don't know what TA is, Regular Soldiers
normally refer to them as SASS (saturday and sunday soldiers), they are
civilians who play at being soldiers at the weekends and one fortnight a
year, I'm probably beeing hard on them, but most of the TA i worked with on
exercise's in germany were as much use as a chocolate firegaurd, however,
over here they, along with Ex servicepersons who are on the short term
reserve list (i.e. under 30), are the first to be called up in case of war,
and ex servicepersons on the long term list (30-45), i.e. me and thousands
of others are second. If i remember right the TA SAS is another company of
the Reg SAS (D i think), anyway for interesting reading on SAS, i would
recommend the following 'BRAVO TWO ZERO - Andy McNabb' and 'The One that
Got Away - sorry can't remember the author' both about the same gulf war
mission, but different view points, i recommend both for a rounded insight,
and the other is 'The Nemesis File' again can't remember the Author, but
the author aledges he was part of a SAS Assasination Squad operating in
Northern Ireland in the early 70's, all facinating reading if your
interested in SAS, If anybody can recommend any other books about the SAS
or other Special Forces from around the world, fact not fiction, please
e-mail me. 


Colin Hollands	
Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
MIS Europe & Africa Region
Phone:	0171 413 3413
Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:38:05 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: IG Merc/SAS entry

At 03:15 PM 1/20/97 +0000, Colin Hollands wrote:

>I
>await in Antissssssipation.(there's an idea for an alternative universe -
>Next stop Planet Transexual...)

Well ,we know that Frank has Vilani tastes in cusine.. Meatloaf for dinner?
AGAIN?!

<bits about the number of technos and spelling snipped.>

This is one of my favorite things about the TML.. the wide variety of
backrounds we bring in.  I'm a military history/weapon fanatic, Leonard is
one of our physics Gods, craig covers the all-important Software, Chemistry
and aztec beat, etc..

<comments re: SAS snipped>

Many SpecWar operators I know are very wary of the books you mention.  The
general feeling is that the author was pumping up his own crest to get
attention after the Army failed to acknowledge his incredible feat of
getting caught by awarding him the VC or something.

For a good look inside US SpecWar forces in Vietnam, check out "Inside the
LRRPs" and "Inside Force Recon", both by Michael Lee Lanning.  For anybody
interested in modern warfare in general, Tom Clancy's non-fiction series
(Submarine, Armored Cav, Fighter Wing, and Marine) give a great overview of
the organization and operation of modern US units.

Collin, one request...  could you pare you comments down into shorter
paragraphs?  I'd like to quote you, but your stuff is rather imbedded.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   Never trust a peasant with a loaded fruit pie!    |
|                                 -Terry Austin       |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:21:15 GMT
From: sdollar@goodnet.com (Stuart L. Dollar)
Subject: Classic Traveller Auction

A friend of mine has the following Classic Traveller Items available
for Auction:

1) Traveller Boxed Set:
Books 1-3
1st Edition (1977), 5th Printing
Very Good Condition
Minimum Bid $8

2) Traveller Boxed Set
Books 1-3
1st Edition (1977), 9th Printing
Very Good
Minimum Bid $8

3) Book 4, Mercenary
1st Edition (1978), 2nd Printing
Very Good
Minimum Bid $4
There are 2 copies of this one, in very similar condition.

4) Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society #6
Very Good
Minimum Bid $4

Here are the rules for the auction:

1)  The first phase of the auction will run from today, Monday,
January 20, 1997 through 1200 AM, MST, February 3, 1997.  

At the end of the first phase of bidding, the top 2 bidders (3 in the
case of Mercenary) will be notified by e-mail to submit a final bid.
They will have until 1200 AM, MST, February 7, 1997 to submit the
final bid.  Winning bidders will be the person who bids highest.  He
will pay $1 more than the next highest bid regardless of what he bid.
For example:

Bidder A bids $17
Bidder B bids $14
Bidder A wins the item and pays $15 ($14+$1)

2)  Bid prices do not include shipping

3)  Minimum Bid increments are $1

4)  Payment will be taken by check or money order in US$ only.
Payment by check will require a 2 week holding period for the check to
clear.  Money orders will be shipped the following day.

5) Bids will be accepted by e-mail only to:
sdollar@goodnet.com

6) Updates to the auction will be posted daily to USENet and the list.

7) Please indicate which copy of the Traveller Boxed Set you are
bidding on.

Thanks,
Stu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #864
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 20 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 865



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Marines (was: possible T4 errata?)
Re: IG Merc/SAS entry
SAS/Entry books
Re: MM's involvement with T4
Missing table from QSDS & SSDS
RE: Ken Whitman's comments
Re: The "We Love DGP" Fan Club is announced!
Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: Vilani and Long pig
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: Supression Fire
Re: CSC Question
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:52:00 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines (was: possible T4 errata?)

Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> writes:"Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>:
> >> Also Starship Troopers is being made into a movie, for anyone who



I guess TL7 can't even produce a mockup of TL12 battledress.  Hollywood
sucks.

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:54:18 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: IG Merc/SAS entry

The 366 WG in Clancy's "Fighter Wing" was my unit for 4 years.  I was
the bomber part of the fighter wing.

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:59:38 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: SAS/Entry books

Your right Doug, about the length, i'll try to keep it short, as for the
books being biased, yes they are which is why i say read both, B2B was
written by the team leader in a reasonably non self-trumpet blowing way,
where as TOTGA was written in the I'm pissed off i wasn't chosen to lead
the mission, but look how good i am style, but does have alot of
information about how he got into the SAS in the first place, training and
such like, I like both books for different reasons but with all things like
this, i take a hadfull of salt as to what is true, invented or changed due
to reporting restrictions (after all the SAS doesn't want to give all its
training secrets away, otherwise it is useless as a force, because every
bugger knows how to counteract it).




Colin Hollands	
Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
MIS Europe & Africa Region
Phone:	0171 413 3413
Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:11:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: MM's involvement with T4

> From: CardSharks@aol.com
> Subject: Re: MM's involvement with T4
> 
> This was the subject of a discussion this weekend with Imperium, in which a
> revised process for product development was established (primarily because
> people were writing product and then not showing it to MM before it was
> published).
> 
> MM

Thanks for the comment, Marc.
I think that this sounds like a good change. To me, having things like
FTL radios show up in JTAS articles is much more upsetting than a table
missing from a sourcebook. (Not that missing tables are OK though).

I think Traveller's one strong point right now is its large, detailed,
_consistent_ background. A couple of minor inconsistencies are
potential adventure seeds. Big inconsistencies indicate sloppy design.
So far I don't think this has happened, but hey, why should that stop
me from worrying about it? ;)

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:52:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Missing table from QSDS & SSDS

So, having finally gotten my hands on a copy of FF&S, I found the
table that is missing from both QSDS and SSDS.

On p. 62 of FF&S - 'Seats'

Access      Vol    Mass     MCr
- --------------------------------
Restricted  1.5    0.02     0.0001
Cramped     2.5    0.02     0.0001
Adequate    3.5    0.02     0.0001
Roomy       7.0    0.02     0.0001

Paying passenger seats must be Adequate or better.
Seats for troops must be Cramped or better.
"Restricted" access is the minimum possible accomodation
for special purposes only.

Now all those small craft passengers have somewhere to sit down.

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:37:07 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: Ken Whitman's comments

- ----------
From: 	Ken Whitman[SMTP:whitman@pensys.com]
Sent: 	Monday, January 13, 1997 2:40 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	RE: Ken Whitman's comments

>I had nothing to do with starships and Highlander 2 never exsisted!-)

Highlander what? ;)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 97 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: The "We Love DGP" Fan Club is announced!

In-Reply-To: <199701171322.OAA00982@merlin.fae.ua.es>

>         Forgive me, Andy, but you have to recognize that things were *a bit*
> easier for you than for other european people. The difference of languages
> keeps the number of traveller afficionados out of the British Islands quite
> low. In my country, I doubt there are more than one dozen of CT/MT/TNE refs
> (and, to my knowledge, I am the only one with T4). I know the situation is
> not spectacularly better at Germany. Austria is almost a Traveller-free
> zone. And so on.

I doubt if IG have seriously looked into translating T4 yet, so I think this is 
an area where multilingual fans could have a big impact. 

>         In fact, I would like to ask you a question. Is BITS open to non-UK
> people? 

In theory, no. In practice, Andy'll let any weirdos in :-)

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:02:34 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

Forgive me if this seems like a waste of the mailing list's time and
bandwidth, but this *idea* popped into my head, and it raised a few
questions that I cannot answer on my own...

1) Suppose a spaceship has reached a substantial fraction of the speed of
light, perhaps via a HEPlaR maneuver drive supplied by an electromagnetic
(or gravitic) "ram-scoop."  Is there any canonical reason why such a
fast-moving spaceship couldn't enter jump space?  According to the old
"C.T. Book 5: High Guard" design rules at least (the only ones to which I
have access right now), the only factor governing jump drive size is
overall hull volume - am I thus correct in thinking that relativistic mass
increases won't cause any complications? 

2) Suppose that fast-moving spaceship successfully enters jump space.
When it emerges from jump space, a week later, will it retain its original
velocity and orientation?

3) Does anyone have any idea how one would describe a electromagnetic (or
gravitic) "ram-scoop" in terms of the existing design rules?

4) Starships are supposed to get yearly maintenance at class-A or -B
starports.  If a starship had completely redundant drive systems, and
substantial fraction of its volume was dedicated to machine shops, cargo
bays packed with spare parts, skilled engineers in low berths (and so
forth, and so on), would it be possible to conduct "limited maintenance"
on one set of drives (enough to prevent misjumps and other catastrophic
failures) while the other was still in use?

Basically, here's the idea: a one-way colonization flight to the Large
Magellenic Cloud.  Yes, it would take centuries, and the wear-and-tear on
the jump drives would be quite brutal, but given enough redundancy, and
really extensive on-board repair facilities (the biggest "question mark,"
I think), it doesn't seem entirely beyond the realm of reason - just
extraordinarily difficult (and expensive).

Of course, this *is* an ambitious project - really long-range survey
missions *within* this galaxy could also be conducted, using the same
basic method.
                                                           - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:38:08 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

John P. Raynor wrote:
> 
> 1) Suppose a spaceship has reached a substantial fraction of the speed of
> light, perhaps via a HEPlaR maneuver drive supplied by an electromagnetic
> (or gravitic) "ram-scoop."  Is there any canonical reason why such a
> fast-moving spaceship couldn't enter jump space?  According to the old
> "C.T. Book 5: High Guard" design rules at least (the only ones to which I
> have access right now), the only factor governing jump drive size is
> overall hull volume - am I thus correct in thinking that relativistic mass
> increases won't cause any complications?
> 
Yes, you are correct.

> 2) Suppose that fast-moving spaceship successfully enters jump space.
> When it emerges from jump space, a week later, will it retain its original
> velocity and orientation?
> 
That depends on how you play it. In my universe, velocity (which
includes
speed and direction) is conserved relative to the sector map, not to the 
location within a single system.

So, in your case, you'd have to be careful where your ship materialized
from jumpspace. You could conceivably emerge at a point where you'd be
heading
out of the system at relativistic speeds.

> 3) Does anyone have any idea how one would describe a electromagnetic (or
> gravitic) "ram-scoop" in terms of the existing design rules?
> 
You should know that (Niven notwithstanding) ramscoops aren't really
that 
practical. There isn't enough interstellar hydrogen for them to
accelerate to
decent speeds in a reasonable time period.

Aside from that, ramscoop design specs are up to you.

> 4) Starships are supposed to get yearly maintenance at class-A or -B
> starports.  If a starship had completely redundant drive systems, and
> substantial fraction of its volume was dedicated to machine shops, cargo
> bays packed with spare parts, skilled engineers in low berths (and so
> forth, and so on), would it be possible to conduct "limited maintenance"
> on one set of drives (enough to prevent misjumps and other catastrophic
> failures) while the other was still in use?
> 
I'd say that you could use that scheme to significantly reduce the odds
of misjumping. There is, however, no substitute for taking a drive/power
plant
apart piece by piece and putting it back together again. You can't do
that 
on a ship, as far as I know.

> Basically, here's the idea: a one-way colonization flight to the Large
> Magellenic Cloud.  Yes, it would take centuries, and the wear-and-tear on
> the jump drives would be quite brutal, but given enough redundancy, and
> really extensive on-board repair facilities (the biggest "question mark,"
> I think), it doesn't seem entirely beyond the realm of reason - just
> extraordinarily difficult (and expensive).
> 

Agreed. However, given the number of jumps needed to get to the
destination,
the ever-so-slight probability of a misjump still means that you'd
probably
get at least one. 

Just making up some numbers, suppose you need one million jumps of
jump-6 to
get to some destination. Your odds of a misjump are one in a thousand,
given the
redundancy scheme you propose. You'll still have, on average, one
thousand
misjumps during the voyage.


- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:07:22 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long pig

Hans Rancke wrote:

>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott writes:
>> ...Then, after a while of eating dried pounded washed dried fermented
>>dried Hoogaash root exclusively, they'd start supplementing certain mineral
>>and protein deficiencies in their diet with cannibalism...
>
>Mused <marz@hotstar.net> writes:
>>...The local food provided enough bulk, you just ate your neighbour to
>>prevent vitamin deficiencies.
>
>Ah... If the local food dosen't provide the Cannibilani with vitamins, where
>did the Herbilani get them?


        Note deficiency does not mean total absence...  If a purely local
food diet provides low but lifesupporting percentages of the RVDA of
certain vitamins, over time the Vegevilani are goinf to develop
deficiency-related diseases like osteoporosis (let's take calacium as an
example).  However, they are going to have somewhat greater concentrations
of the nutrients, proteins, what have you, than local foods do, because
they've been bopping around concentrating it.  In the case of osteoporosis,
a Cannibilani, even if he just eats bread supplemented with Vegevilani bone
meal, is still going to be getting the calcium he gleans from the local
diet, plus the calcium that the poor Vegevilani managed to glean and fix in
his bones and eventually got eaten for.

        My (very, very, very vague) understanding of how nutrition works is
that you need protein and vitamins to build tissue and bones and keep
certain processes operating, and calories to provide the energy, which
often gets stored as excess fat if you're eating a lot of Big Macs.  So
cannibalism here isn't just about calories (or the thrill of the chase and
the joys of cracking a few beers and cooking over an open fire), but also
about protein and trace nutrients; the stuff that actually goes to build
human beings, not just keep them running.  Take cars: if there's enough
steel and plastic and washer fluid in their diet, they won't have to resort
to cannibalism; but if there isn't enough steel or washer fluid, in order
to make more cars or keep their windshields clean, they're going to have to
start preying on one another.

>
>Andrew Boulton writes:
>>A Vargr in my game could identify branches of Humaniti by taste. IIRC,
>>Zhodani were slightly spicy, Solomani were salty, and Vilani were a bit
>>tasteless.
>
>Great idea, Andrew, but I wonder if it holds water? I would think that the
>taste of two members of the same species would depend a lot more on their
>individual diet than on their race.
>

        So you mean if I used actual ground cowboy in that cowboy chili
recipie I have, rather than just preying on suburbanites, I'd get better
flavour because the cowboy lives on flapjacks and barbeque rather than
McDonalds and Kraft dinner?  Makes sense... now all I have to do is find a
cowboy and test it out...:)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:51:24 -0800
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

John P. Raynor wrote:
> 
> Forgive me if this seems like a waste of the mailing list's time and
> bandwidth, but this *idea* popped into my head, and it raised a few
> questions that I cannot answer on my own...

Hey man, that's what this list is for. The airing of ideas.

> 1) Suppose a spaceship has reached a substantial fraction of the speed of
> light, perhaps via a HEPlaR maneuver drive supplied by an electromagnetic
> (or gravitic) "ram-scoop."  Is there any canonical reason why such a
> fast-moving spaceship couldn't enter jump space?  According to the old
> "C.T. Book 5: High Guard" design rules at least (the only ones to which I
> have access right now), the only factor governing jump drive size is
> overall hull volume - am I thus correct in thinking that relativistic mass
> increases won't cause any complications?

That's a good question. You are correct, in all canon design sequences
that I know of, mass of the vessel is never taken into account when
calculating the size of jump drive required. So, strictly by the book,
relativistic mass increases are irrelevant.

However, pseudo-scientifically, I am skeptical that the mass of a jump
drive is dependent upon the volume of the vessel. It *should be*
dependent upon the mass. IMHO, the design sequences assume that the
density of the ship is "average" (someone bounced around the average
density a while back -- what is it again?) and the tables use the hull
size as an approximation of the ship's mass... 

This also makes it more difficult to "jump in" those relativistic
rocks...
<taboo alert!> I'll leave the calculation of jump drive performance
degredation as a function of increasing relativistic mass as an exercise
for the reader . . . ;-)

> 2) Suppose that fast-moving spaceship successfully enters jump space.
> When it emerges from jump space, a week later, will it retain its original
> velocity and orientation?

Yes. The problem has always been, of course, velocity and orientation
relative to what? I've always fudged it by saying more explicitly "when
a ship emerges from jumpspace, a week later, it receives a velocity and
orientation relative to the nearest local gravity well identical to its
previous vector relative to the nearest mass it jumped from."

In other words, if it had a vector of 20 m/s moving away from World A,
and jumps to another world B, its new vector would be 20 m/s moving away
from World B. Its exact location is anwhere at 100 dia. of World B, with
a vector of 20 m/s away.

> 3) Does anyone have any idea how one would describe a electromagnetic (or
> gravitic) "ram-scoop" in terms of the existing design rules?

IIRC, Fire Fusion & Steel mentioned something about broussard
ram-scoops, but I don't remember if there were any design sequences. It
all would depend on the hydrogen density of local space, energy input,
etc.

I confess to know very little about these things, maybe the physicists
on the list can take a crack at it. (Shadow?)

> 4) Starships are supposed to get yearly maintenance at class-A or -B
> starports.  If a starship had completely redundant drive systems, and
> substantial fraction of its volume was dedicated to machine shops, cargo
> bays packed with spare parts, skilled engineers in low berths (and so
> forth, and so on), would it be possible to conduct "limited maintenance"
> on one set of drives (enough to prevent misjumps and other catastrophic
> failures) while the other was still in use?

My Opinion: No.

The yearly maintenance includes complete inspection and/or repair of the
Lanthanum Grid meshed within the hull, and therefore needs to be done
"on the ground" or within some spacestation framework thingy in space
(scaffolding), as parts of the hull need to be opened and inspected.

But hey, it's your universe. Handle it the way you want. :-)

> Basically, here's the idea: a one-way colonization flight to the Large
> Magellenic Cloud.  Yes, it would take centuries, and the wear-and-tear on
> the jump drives would be quite brutal, but given enough redundancy, and
> really extensive on-board repair facilities (the biggest "question mark,"
> I think), it doesn't seem entirely beyond the realm of reason - just
> extraordinarily difficult (and expensive).

Wow, talk about dreaming big! I truly doubt though, that enough hydrogen
exists within the inter-galactic medium to fuel a jump drive with any
degree of efficiency. Not being a Cosmologist, this is strictly an
intuitive statement.

> Of course, this *is* an ambitious project - really long-range survey
> missions *within* this galaxy could also be conducted, using the same
> basic method.
>                                                            - J. Raynor

I think that any long range project of this magnitude (like the Zhodani
core expeditions) requires a "line of supply". Generation ships that use
jump drive are just too darn risky, imho.

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========
Technology is an extension of our hands and our feet, not our spirit.
                                    -- Filmmaker Costa-Gavras, 9/6/95

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:17:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

Hi.

> From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>

> 1) Suppose a spaceship has reached a substantial fraction of the speed of
> light, perhaps via a HEPlaR maneuver drive supplied by an electromagnetic
> (or gravitic) "ram-scoop."  Is there any canonical reason why such a
> fast-moving spaceship couldn't enter jump space?  According to the old
> "C.T. Book 5: High Guard" design rules at least (the only ones to which I
> have access right now), the only factor governing jump drive size is
> overall hull volume - am I thus correct in thinking that relativistic mass
> increases won't cause any complications? 

Relativistic mass increases cannot affect jump drives. If they could,
then they would affect jumps in "normal" reference frames, since these
"normal" frames are relativistic to people in other-than-normal frames.

> 2) Suppose that fast-moving spaceship successfully enters jump space.
> When it emerges from jump space, a week later, will it retain its original
> velocity and orientation?

According to the rules, yes. Note that "one week later" will be in the
reference frame of the moving starship, not of the stationary star
systems. So time dialation will make these jumps longer than one week
in the reference frame of the folks back home.

> 3) Does anyone have any idea how one would describe a electromagnetic (or
> gravitic) "ram-scoop" in terms of the existing design rules?

Not me.

> Basically, here's the idea: a one-way colonization flight to the Large
> Magellenic Cloud.  Yes, it would take centuries, and the wear-and-tear on
> the jump drives would be quite brutal, but given enough redundancy, and
> really extensive on-board repair facilities (the biggest "question mark,"
> I think), it doesn't seem entirely beyond the realm of reason - just
> extraordinarily difficult (and expensive).

This is a really good idea. Keep in mind two things: the longer jump
times due to time dialation, and the longer jump distances due to length
contraction. Those 6-parsec distances will contract to 3-parsec distances (or
shorter) if you go fast enough. So a smaller j-drive will go farther at
high velocities.

Example: A j-3 ship moving at 87% of lightspeed makes a jump that is 6
parsecs long and takes two weeks in the reference frame of the folks
back home. To the folks on the ship, it takes one week and covers 3
(contracted) parsecs. This assumes (of course) that it is jumping along
the axis of its velocity. If it jumps perpendicular to its velocity,
then the jump will still take two weeks planetside (one week shipside),
but it will be only 3 parsecs planetside (and 3 parsecs shipside); it
will not get the distance bonus.

If you got the ship going fast enough it could make it to the
Magellanics in one jump. This jump would take hundreds of weeks as
measured planetside, but would be only one week shipside.

- -Rob

PS. 

The formula for time dialation or length contraction is

tau = cos arcsin (v/c),

where tau is the factor by which time is dialated and length contracted,
v is the speed of the reference frame, and c is the speed of light.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:38:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

Hi.

> From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>

> That's a good question. You are correct, in all canon design sequences
> that I know of, mass of the vessel is never taken into account when
> calculating the size of jump drive required. So, strictly by the book,
> relativistic mass increases are irrelevant.
> However, pseudo-scientifically, I am skeptical that the mass of a jump
> drive is dependent upon the volume of the vessel. It *should be*
> dependent upon the mass.

I too believe that the "volume" rules in HG and elsewhere are an
approximation to mass rules. But please note that this approximation
will work regardless of relativistic mass, since the mass of the ship
does not change in the reference frame of the drives.

>> 2) Suppose that fast-moving spaceship successfully enters jump space.
>> When it emerges from jump space, a week later, will it retain its original
>> velocity and orientation?
> 
> Yes. The problem has always been, of course, velocity and orientation
> relative to what? 

An interesting question, but it does not affect relativistic jumps. If a
velocity is constant in one inertial reference frame, then it is
constant in ALL inertial reference frames. So it arrives with the same
velocity vector (whatever that vector may be, depending on reference
frame) regardless of which reference you chose (as long as you don't
change your reference frame during the jump, or accelerate it).

Changing your reference frame from one gravity well to another won't
work unless they have zero velocity relative to one another. Generally,
you have to chose which gravity well will be your reference and stick to
it throughout the jump. Which one you chose is not important, just that
it be used consistantly. Practically all physics equations assume that
you will not be arbitrarily changing your reference frames while working
on a signle problem.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:49:14 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Brawley <brawleyj@UWSTOUT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Supression Fire

>Chatting to a friend on the phone last night I was reminded of the 
>suppression fire rules in Shatterzone, makes for good firefights, keeping 
>the enemies' heads down, testing their nerve by intimidation etc. The 
>only other rpgs I remember with suppression fire were Recon and possibly 
>Pheonix Command. I don't ever recall seeing any mention of suppression 
>fire in any of the TRaveller universes, and I have an as yet badly formed 
>idea that testing your opponents' coolness under fire & willingness to 
>take risks might improve traveller combat which I've always found a 
>little lacking. (Laserburn had coolness ratings & stuff too, and I 
>suppose the Warhammer battle & 40k rules did too....) anyway, I just type 
>'em as they come to me. I guess I'm just still smarting from the lack of 
>signature on my signed copy (whine whine).

What are those Fire supression rules and coolness under fire.  Even a brief
explanation of how they work, I'd appreciate.  They sound very interesting
as I too have found Traveller a little lacking in that area.  Since this is
the whole point of modern infantry tactics, I'd like to hear what those
other systems came up with.  Espically the Warhammer and 40k..

Also, if you read in the sections of TW2k, Dark Conspiracy, or Traveller:TNE
under automatic fire, there is mention of a danger area and that it can be
used to keep peoples heads down, but the odds are so low of getting hit in
this manner that it never really worked.  

thanks in advance,
Jeff Brawley
brawleyj@uwstout.edu
traveller player since 960501

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:52:22 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: CSC Question

On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Richard Hough wrote:

> Could somebody explain "One-Way" from page 40 of the Central Supply
> Catalog? It says "... it is designed to allow outgoing energy to pass
> through it with as little disruption to its structure as possible. ... when
> applied to the outside of a rigid surface it effectively adds 1 cm to its
> thickness for outgoing kinetic energy only". It sounds contradictory;
> shouldn't one of those "outgoing"s be an "incoming"? Shouldn't it depend on
> the shape of the surface; it's much easier to punch out of an arch than
> into one. Does this mean if I spray 1 cm of the stuff on 0.1 cm of bonded
> superdense armor I got 1.1 cm of bonded superdense? Wow!


See the response from Greg Porter, below.
- --------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:11:14 -0500 (EST)
From: BTRC@aol.com
To: ransom@connect.iconnect.net
Subject: Re: CSC Question (fwd)

Sure, post this to the TML list if you want. I'm only GDW-beta at the moment.

Clarification:
One-way in the CSC is based on an existing treatment for bulletproof glass,
on the idea that changing the compressive strength on one side of the glass
means that it is harder to penetrate from that side, but if the tensile
strength is not altered, it is easier to penetrate from the opposite side.

One-way will double or add 1cm (whichever is smaller) to the thickness of a
material for determining its armor rating, for purposes of incoming fire
only. Its intended use is to provide some protection to an otherwise
unarmored vehicle, and allow the occupants to fire back out without the
aesthetically displeasing and suspicion-generating qualities of firing ports.
Someone *really* concerned about attack would have a custom armored limo with
blow-out panels over concealed firing ports, rather than relying on the
limited protection that one-way could provide.

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:04:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, John P. Raynor wrote:

> 
> Forgive me if this seems like a waste of the mailing list's time and
> bandwidth, but this *idea* popped into my head, and it raised a few
> questions that I cannot answer on my own...
> 
> 1) Suppose a spaceship has reached a substantial fraction of the speed of
> light, perhaps via a HEPlaR maneuver drive supplied by an electromagnetic
> (or gravitic) "ram-scoop."  Is there any canonical reason why such a
> fast-moving spaceship couldn't enter jump space?  According to the old
> "C.T. Book 5: High Guard" design rules at least (the only ones to which I
> have access right now), the only factor governing jump drive size is
> overall hull volume - am I thus correct in thinking that relativistic mass
> increases won't cause any complications? 
> 
> 2) Suppose that fast-moving spaceship successfully enters jump space.
> When it emerges from jump space, a week later, will it retain its original
> velocity and orientation?

It is my understanding that relativistic speed has no effect on jump
vector.  That is determined by the field produced by the lanthium grid on
the hulls of starships.  The grid, however, must be capable of inducing
relativistic motion to a starship, or there would be bad (very bad) things
happening from differing solar orbital speeds on exit.

It is customary for merchant ships to enter and exit jump space at low
speeds (relative to the planet), but that is a holdover from times when
computing a jump point was either beyond the capacity of the ship's
computer (use a flight plan from the starport), or at the very limit of
the ships computer.  Reducing the margin of error (the exact point of
entry into J-space) by reducing ships speed is one way of doing that.
Exiting J-space at low speeds allows ships sensors a chance to build a
picture of surrounding space before blundering on.

Let me also say that there is a lot of debate on the
advantages/disadvantages of a merchant exiting J-space at a standstill.
It does leave one open to being jumped, if another ship is in the right
place at the right time.  My personal feeling is that it is safer to come
out at a low relativistic speed, and then build it back up; than to come
out hot and blind and hope that this is not the 1 time in a million that
something is in the way.

Military ships may find it necessary to exit J-space hot, but it is a
risky proposition unless good data is available for the destination point.


 
> 3) Does anyone have any idea how one would describe a electromagnetic (or
> gravitic) "ram-scoop" in terms of the existing design rules?

Fire, Fusion & Steel has a good article on the Bussard Ram-scoop.

> 
> 4) Starships are supposed to get yearly maintenance at class-A or -B
> starports.  If a starship had completely redundant drive systems, and
> substantial fraction of its volume was dedicated to machine shops, cargo
> bays packed with spare parts, skilled engineers in low berths (and so
> forth, and so on), would it be possible to conduct "limited maintenance"
> on one set of drives (enough to prevent misjumps and other catastrophic
> failures) while the other was still in use?

I would extend the duration for maintenance, but having spent a number of
years on board a navy ship, I can tell ya...Tenders are great, but when it
comes time to pull the plant and look at the tubes, you have to be in
port.

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #865
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 20 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 866



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
Re: VDS TL-12 Fusion+ contragrav pogo stick.
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: SSDS & QSDS omission
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Inconsistencies
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
[long] Wil's Alternate Task System 
Vilani as pets (was Vilani & long pig)
Intergalatic Naval Architecture
Re: Vilani and Long Pig
RE: Role-Playing and Task Systems
Re: Vilani and Long pig
Re: Suppression Fire

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:21:15 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

Joseph E. Walsh wrote:
> 
> Not to resurrect the task system debate [G], but I've been thinking about
> applying DM's based on the quality of role-play involved.  For instance,
> someone who, when his character is confronted with a ground car that
> requires repair, says, "So I fix it" might get a -2 DM.  Someone who
> says, "After disconnecting the thirbig line of the Fusion Plus module, I
> hook up the AutoDiag to the car's comp.  Discovering that it's a problem
> with the drive shaft, I grab my UniWrench and set to work" might get a DM
> +2.
> 
> What do you think?  Do you use a system like this?

I do, if the player seems inclined to do so. Some players, like some
people I know, don't give a damn about the details behind the technology
- -- they just want to use it. That's how I am about TL 7-8 automobiles: I
don't give a damn if the vacuum regulator is defribbilating and in turn
is causing my Ford to run rough . . . all that matters to me is that my
pickup is not running right.

On the other hand, I know about computers and electronics and I *do*
care here. If a technically-trained PC asks: "What are the symptoms of
this problem?" and runs diagnostic software -- as a good tech would --
this is good roleplaying and might be worth experience points instead of
DMs.

One advantage of Joe's idea is that it will encourage players to learn
the about the game-tech in Traveller: after all, behavior that is
rewarded (with DMs) is repeated.

- --Rich Ostorero		http://home.inreach.com/lordbasl/index.html
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:43:53 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: VDS TL-12 Fusion+ contragrav pogo stick.

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> 
>         You can do some fun stuff with Contra-grav and Fusion+.  Just
> imagine; a pogo stick capable of reaching orbit if you hotwire it (re-entry
> might be a bit dicey).  And just think about how pissed off the Mothers
> Against Grav Cycle Carnage are going to be :).

Ghods, the mind reels . . .

<<lunacy deleted>>
>
> 
>         Design notes: credit for the inspiration goes to Ross Coburn, who

You mean "Blame," not "credit," right?? :)

This is a SIIICCCKKK idea . . . . and I love it.

> gave me the idea purely by accident, and now sorely regrets it.  I didn't
> bother calculating the acceleration rating figures; I bet that 50 kg worth
> of structurecomp ought to be plenty strong.  I also fudged the volume some
> to leave a margin for error, and didn't bother doing the numbers for fuel
> supply and the glove compartment; they're well within the margin for error
> in the volume and chassis mass numbers.  And I didn't bother computing the
> cost of the radar altimeter; this would be a simple device whose cost would
> be negligible at TL-12.
> 
>        I did this with the beta VDS pdf file I downloaded from Joe Heck's site.

- -- 
- --Rich Ostorero		http://home.inreach.com/lordbasl/index.html
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:14:41 +0000
From: dominicreynolds <nz19@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

Erwin Fritz wrote:
> 
> John P. Raynor wrote:
> >

> Agreed. However, given the number of jumps needed to get to the
> destination,
> the ever-so-slight probability of a misjump still means that you'd
> probably
> get at least one.
> 
> Just making up some numbers, suppose you need one million jumps of
> jump-6 to
> get to some destination. Your odds of a misjump are one in a thousand,
> given the
> redundancy scheme you propose. You'll still have, on average, one
> thousand
> misjumps during the voyage.

A lurker is amazed by the odds of misjump stated above.  Even with
the best maintained ship and supurb ship the misjump chances appear
to be closer to one in six, especially on new starships.

Has anyone had there pilot crash land twice in succession (not fatally).
The second on a corrosive atmosphere planet.

- --
Dominic Reynolds

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:36:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: SSDS & QSDS omission

> So, having finally gotten my hands on a copy of FF&S, I found the
> table that is missing from both QSDS and SSDS.
> 
> On p. 62 of FF&S - 'Seats'
> 
> Access      Vol    Mass     MCr
> - --------------------------------
> Restricted  1.5    0.02     0.0001
> Cramped     2.5    0.02     0.0001
> Adequate    3.5    0.02     0.0001
> Roomy       7.0    0.02     0.0001

The point of this, which I forgot to mention, was that I think
it would be useful if the people in charge of QSDS/SSDS put this
table into the next rev. of the design systems.

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:50:07 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

> Basically, here's the idea: a one-way colonization flight to the Large
> Magellenic Cloud.  Yes, it would take centuries, and the wear-and-tear on
> the jump drives would be quite brutal, but given enough redundancy, and
> really extensive on-board repair facilities (the biggest "question mark,"
> I think), it doesn't seem entirely beyond the realm of reason - just
> extraordinarily difficult (and expensive).
> 
> Of course, this *is* an ambitious project - really long-range survey
> missions *within* this galaxy could also be conducted, using the same
> basic method.
>                                                            - J. Raynor


The Solomani rim expeditions used this concept.

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:04:00 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

Well, I know that some of my theories on Jump Drive and Jump Space are not
very popular here :) but I'm gonna take a stab at this anyway.

>Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:02:34 -0500 (EST)
>From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
>Subject: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
>
>1) Suppose a spaceship has reached a substantial fraction of the speed of
>light, perhaps via a HEPlaR maneuver drive supplied by an electromagnetic
>(or gravitic) "ram-scoop."  Is there any canonical reason why such a
>fast-moving spaceship couldn't enter jump space?  According to the old
>"C.T. Book 5: High Guard" design rules at least (the only ones to which I
>have access right now), the only factor governing jump drive size is
>overall hull volume - am I thus correct in thinking that relativistic mass
>increases won't cause any complications? 

The way I play Jumpspace is that the drive creates a bubble around the ship
and rips a hole for the ship to travel to Jump Space through.  Based on
this, I think Jump Drives are based on volume because the issue is how big
the bubble and hole need to be, not at all on the mass of the ship.

The problem in my version of Jump Drive would be that the ship is travelling
too fast to enter the hole.  That is the pilot and astrogator would have to
work well together (it is harder to hit a hole twice the size of the ship
when you are moving very fast) and even then it would be very dependent on
how fast the ship was actually going and on whether the Jump Drive could rip
the hole into Jump Space far enough ahead that it would be big enough when
the ship arrived at that point.

>2) Suppose that fast-moving spaceship successfully enters jump space.
>When it emerges from jump space, a week later, will it retain its original
>velocity and orientation?

I would have this dependent on how well the Astrogator rolled and how much
preperation he took.  It is supposedly the "tumble" through Jump Space that
determines what the exit speed and orientation would be.  If the Astrogator
rolled sloppily, he might pass up the system altogether if the ship is
moving at relativistic speeds.

>3) Does anyone have any idea how one would describe a electromagnetic (or
>gravitic) "ram-scoop" in terms of the existing design rules?

you got me here.

>4) Starships are supposed to get yearly maintenance at class-A or -B
>starports.  If a starship had completely redundant drive systems, and
>substantial fraction of its volume was dedicated to machine shops, cargo
>bays packed with spare parts, skilled engineers in low berths (and so
>forth, and so on), would it be possible to conduct "limited maintenance"
>on one set of drives (enough to prevent misjumps and other catastrophic
>failures) while the other was still in use?

I would say that if the systems were sufficiently redundent and if there
were enough skilled workers AND if there were enough materials available for
repairs, then I would say yes.  I think the big issue is going to be the
materials for repairs.

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg) Roger Camp, Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii, Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM
       Dr. Olivar Preston "Stoney" Osborn, PhD, Archeology UU (AAB PBeM)
       Sir Davis Grambley, Imperial Navy, Ret. (Reavers IRC Game)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:03:57 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Inconsistencies

>I think that this sounds like a good change. To me, having things like
>FTL radios show up in JTAS articles is much more upsetting than a table
>missing from a sourcebook. (Not that missing tables are OK though).

This got me thinking (yes, Suz, it did hurt :)  )

Anyway, i was wondering if anyone has come up with a list of inconsistencies
in Traveller.  I'm not talking about inconsistencies with the real world
(although that might be interesting), but what I'm looking for is a list of
places where something appears in the rules or an adventure or whatever that
seems to contradict other rules, adventures, or whatever.

I know we have discussed Jump Torps and the <100dt Jump ships in TNE to
death, but I'd like to know what other inconsistencies are out there and
come up with fixes for these problems wherever possible.  If no one has a
list of these, I'd be willing to keep them, but since I have only a little
MT stuff and less CT stuff it will be hard for me to come up with the
inconsistencies myself.

Just a curiousity.

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg) Roger Camp, Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii, Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM
       Dr. Olivar Preston "Stoney" Osborn, PhD, Archeology UU (AAB PBeM)
       Sir Davis Grambley, Imperial Navy, Ret. (Reavers IRC Game)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:29:41 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

dominicreynolds wrote:
> 
> Erwin Fritz wrote:
> >
> > Just making up some numbers, suppose you need one million jumps of
> > jump-6 to
> > get to some destination. Your odds of a misjump are one in a thousand,
> > given the
> > redundancy scheme you propose. You'll still have, on average, one
> > thousand
> > misjumps during the voyage.
> 
> A lurker is amazed by the odds of misjump stated above.  Even with
> the best maintained ship and supurb ship the misjump chances appear
> to be closer to one in six, especially on new starships.
> 

The odds are one in a thousand, "given the redundancy scheme" proposed
by the original poster. See the original post for details. Besides, I
was just making up some rough numbers to prove a point.


- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:17:19 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Erwin Fritz wrote:
>
> dominicreynolds wrote:
> > 
> > Erwin Fritz wrote:
> > >
> > > Just making up some numbers, suppose you need one million jumps of
> > > jump-6 to
> > > get to some destination. Your odds of a misjump are one in a thousand,
> > > given the
> > > redundancy scheme you propose. You'll still have, on average, one
> > > thousand
> > > misjumps during the voyage.
> > 
> > A lurker is amazed by the odds of misjump stated above.  Even with
> > the best maintained ship and supurb ship the misjump chances appear
> > to be closer to one in six, especially on new starships.
> > 
> 
> The odds are one in a thousand, "given the redundancy scheme" proposed
> by the original poster. See the original post for details. Besides, I
> was just making up some rough numbers to prove a point.

It occurs to me that if your voyage is about 50 kiloparsecs long, and your
destination is defined as "any potentially habitable planet in the Large
Magellanic Cloud" (rather than a particular nearby star system), even
being thrown 36 parsecs off course by a mis-jump shouldn't be a serious
disaster, provided that a mis-jump doesn't involve "tumbling" through jump
space, and thus re-emerging with the starship's bow pointed in a random
direction (which would lead to a completely unintentional, but fatally
long, detour through intergalactic space).

I would say that the "grid" on a starship's hull has got to be pretty
tough, with a great deal of built-in redundancy of its own.  Military
vessels can, after all, successfully enter jump space even after taking
damage in battle.  I doubt that there are very many micrometeorites in
intergalactic space, and some kind of gravitic "deflector shield" (a
specialized variant of the "repulsor bays" from the "High Guard" design
rules, perhaps) would reduce the amount of hull erosion, particularly if
combined with an "active" laser-based anti-meteorite system.  I suppose,
however, that portions of the grid could "burn out" after being energized
*thousands* of times.  Could an "extra-dense grid" be installed, perhaps
constructed with considerably thicker filaments and narrower spacing? 
Alternatively, some variation of the staging principle could be used. The
starship would have a layered, onion-like "hull," and only the outermost
"layer" would be energized during any one jump.  As soon as that "layer" 
begins to show signs of "burning out," it could be cast off, exposing a
fresh grid. 

I'm afraid this discussion has strayed from the actual *rules,* and so
there probably aren't any real *answers* to a lot of these possibilities,
but it's nice that the background material is rich and detailed enough to
make this kind of speculation possible.
                                                              - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:40:44 +0000
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

At 16:04 20/01/97 -0600, Paul Walker wrote:
>The way I play Jumpspace is that the drive creates a bubble around the ship
>and rips a hole for the ship to travel to Jump Space through.  Based on
>this, I think Jump Drives are based on volume because the issue is how big
>the bubble and hole need to be, not at all on the mass of the ship.

	Whatever, the ship rips a hole in space, enters it, and sews it back up
again afterwards, right? So what happens if the ship is destroyed before it
can close the hole up? Or does it close automatically? I'm sure I read
somewhere that it's the ship's j-drive that closes it up.

	If the ship is destroyed, will the hole remain open? And for how long?
Will it get smaller or bigger? Could another ship detect energies emanating
from it, thus enabling its sensors to pin the hole down so it can
investigate? If the ship blew up in j-space before the hole was sealed, how
would the physics of j-space affect the explosion? (Difficult I know as
there is hardly any info on this.) Could the explosion be so powerful as to
destroy other ships in the vicinity, or the whole star system even? Could
any beings who might live in j-space find their way into our universe
through this hole whereas they never had the ability to cross that
threshold before? Assuming that if they do exist, although they've never
before been seen during a normal j-space trip, they could be attracted by
the explosion.

	I have no idea if this has been discussed before, so please excuse me if
I'm rehashing an old thread. And excuse if any of this sounds daft but I
can't remember seeing anything about it before, thanks!

	See ya...




Bruce E J Lewis

bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk , bejlewis@aol.com
Mobile Tel - 0956-506527          
From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:45:04 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: [long] Wil's Alternate Task System 

Having done an analysis of the relative difficulties and skill ammounts,
between CT/MT and T4, I felt I preferred the MT task system, but for use
with T4 some serious changes were needed.


System uses 2d6, plus skill level, plus attribute/3. Max DM=+12

Difficulties	Target #
Easy		4+
Average/Routine	8+
Difficult	12+
Formidable	16+
Staggering	20+
Impossible	24+
Ridiculous	-- Not possible--

Time Rolls (if used) are [4d6 -(skill) -(attribute/3)] *(expected time/10)

On a natural 2: If task would otherwise succeed, induce a complication (ie:
			it works, but....) or subtract 1d6 from DM's
		if task would have failed, it is an agravated crit fail
No auto-success rule; however, if PC rolls a 12 that fails, allow PC to add
		1d6-1 to roll, and a natural 17 allows adding another 1d6-1,
		giving a 22. No more than 4d6-2 is ever rolled.
Unskilled Tasks: Increase difficulty by 1 line. JoaT/2 may be added. (so Jack
		9-10 is equal to actual skill level 1, and 11-12 is level 2)
Exceptional Failure: Fail by 4 points. This is usually a crit fail.
Exceptional Success: Make by 4 points.
cautious/hasty: decrase/increase by 1 line for double/half time

CHanges to combat system, etc: Called Shot: x2 dmg is +1 difficulty. x3 is
2 lines. Exceptional success increases called shot level by one place (x1,
x2, x3, x4)

Optional "Half-Line" table of difficulties
Line#	Diff			Tgt#
0.0	Automatic		0+  (no roll needed)
0.5	Very Easy 		2+  (no roll needed if skilled)
1.0	Easy			4+
1.5	Moderately Easy		6+
2.0	Routine			8+
2.5	Moderately Difficult	10+
3.0	Difficult		12+
3.5	Very Difficult		14+
4.0	Formidable		16+
4.5	Very Formidable		18+
5.0	Staggering		20+
5.5	Very Staggering		22+
6.0	Nigh Imbossible		24+
6.5+	Truly Impossible	26+  (truly impossible with a +12 limit)


Rationale:

+12 DM: max skill level is 12, since you can't raise skills past there
after CGen. Also, due to the approximately 50% increase in number of
skills, I figured a 50% increase in upper limit would be good.

Att/3 Best fit (IMNSHO) of ballancing attributes vs skills. Especially
since I round normally. gives range of 1-5 for PC's and old PC's may wind
up with a 0 from att.
Raised target numbers by 1 and added staggering. THis meshes with increased
skill and att mods; lower diffs are easier than MT, but not by much, for
experienced PC's.

Optional half lines table gives very wide scope of difficulties. Every DM+2
modifier from T4 becomes a -0.5 line modifier.

Also, Joe Average, with skill 1, att 7, gets a DM+3, giving him a 83%
chance of success on routine tasks. A rate I approve of.


William F. Hostman
Mailto:Aramis@Asylumbbs.com

Traveller, GURPS, Hero, WFRP, SFB, Star Wars, and Masterbook GM
Star Trek, B5, and Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:34:48 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Vilani as pets (was Vilani & long pig)

At 10:24 PM 1/19/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>        Absolutely.  However, we know that no human disease organisms
>existed on Vland; the Ancients probably thoroughly disinfected their pets
>before importing them to Vland.  Thus, the long Vilani lifespan and the
>Plague of Duskir.  So this does not preclude cannibalism.
>
>

From this exchange, I gather that the Ancients were using humans as
something other than labor?  If the humans were an active part of the
Ancients operations, say as easily retrainable labor for running or
repairing the machinery, then humans would have understood the processes
involved in food handling. When the original machinery broke down, they
would have had to jury rig some kind of replacements or find an alternative
way to do an understood process. 

I have always believed that Grandfather & his children took humans because
they were easier to train or retrain than their fellow droyne. Once a droyne
is caste, I am not aware of any way to change the caste. Humans, however,
can be retrained several times. 

Perhaps it was The Grandchildern's use of human workers in place of doryne
labor that precipated the conflict with Grandfather. In any case, I can't
see the Ancients shipping humans so far and wide, while genetically
manipulating them to fit their new environments just to have a 'pet'.


Garry

 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:48:00 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Intergalatic Naval Architecture

It occurs to me that drive maintenance is the biggest obstacle to really
long-range (multi-kiloparsec) voyages - to paraphrase another participant
in this thread, every so often, you've got to take your jump drive apart,
spread the pieces out on the floor, and lovingly scrub each one with a
toothbrush until it shines.  Presumably, this takes space.  Space,
however, is something which tends to be scarce aboard starships,
particularly starships which are already packed with colonists in low
berths, spare parts, and redundant drive systems.

After fiddling around with the "High Guard" design rules, however,
something struck me: "Trillion Credit Squadron" has rules for collapsible
fuel bladders.  Suppose you have a very large insulated compartment,
adjacent to the engine room, which is normally occupied by a filled
bladder of fuel.  There are, however, sliding doors set in the aft
bulkhead of this compartment, which are wide enough to admit entire drive
systems (one, for example, of the ship's three redundant jump drives).
Presumably, gravity in both the engine room itself and the "fuel
tank/workshop" could be switched off, thus eliminating the need for
substantial cranes, scaffolds, and so forth.  If, for example, a jump-3
drive requires 4 percent of the starship's total volume, a compartment
occupying just under 30 percent of its volume should be big enough to give
a platoon of engineers plenty of elbow room.

I suppose the technological horse I'm beating is beginning to show signs
of fatal injury, and there's always "G.M. fiat" to fall back on, but I
guess I just want to "do it right," and develop this odd idea in a manner
as consistant with the canon, as it is understood here, as possible.  If
people are getting sick of it, however, please tell me, and I'll drop it.

                                                             - J. Raynor
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:20:15 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:40:45 -0800, Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
>David P. Summers wrote:
>> Atually the Vilani could not have relied on cannibalism to survive
>> more than a short time (months? and it is not clear that any records
>> would even survive from this time to carry on the legend).
>> A society running on cannibalism is like a person eating
>> themselves to live.  Someone someplace has to be able to eat
>> local flora/fauna or the whole thing colapses (and fairly
>> quickly).  At that point, the Vilani have no more reason to
>> rely on cannibalism than Terrans do.

>Sure they do-the Vilani didn't need to worry about eating their own
>society.  They ate the ones they conquered when they were barbarilani.

This makes no difference to the survival of humans on Vland
as a species.  If you divide a species into two groups
the fact still remains that the first group could
only survive on the second group as long as the
second group has something to eat.  But, since they
are the same species, if the second group has
something to eat, then so does the first group.

>You don't think they were a "we've grown beyond such barbarous things"
>Deanna Troi Star Trek people who would never harm a fly, do you?  I
>think they've got a NASTY little secret in their closet. ...NASTY...

No, I said that the Vilani had no more reason to be cannibals
than Terrans and there is no _more_ reason that it would be
a part of their past than it was of ours.

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:53:25 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: Role-Playing and Task Systems

Joe said...
I've been thinking about applying DM's based on the quality of role-play 
involved.

What do you think?  Do you use a system like this?

[m]  Sounds like a good idea during a period in which you wish to encourage 
your players to improve their playing style. I don't know that I would us 
it all of the time.

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end

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:27:52 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long pig

Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:07:22 -0500, rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch
Elliott)
>        Note deficiency does not mean total absence...  If a purely local
>food diet provides low but lifesupporting percentages of the RVDA of
>certain vitamins, over time the Vegevilani are goinf to develop
>deficiency-related diseases like osteoporosis (let's take calacium as an
>example).  However, they are going to have somewhat greater concentrations
>of the nutrients, proteins, what have you, than local foods do, because
>they've been bopping around concentrating it.

First of all, it should be noted that this still can't be an arguements
for the survival of the species as whole.  In fact, for this
to work, the prey has to be able to not only survive, but
maintain adequate health to keep functioning (and even then
only a small fraction could benefit from such cannibalism).

Second of all, such malnutrition is not unknown on the Earth.
However, cannibalism is not a common result of malnutition.
In fact, it takes full starvation to the brink of death to
drive people to cannibalism (and even then it is an iffy
thing).

The question arises is what are we going for here?  Clearly
the hitory of Vland doesn't require one to expect cannibalism.
Do we want to decide before hand that cannibalism exists and
we are trying to drum up reason for it?  Is this the best
way of making an interesting background?  I find that a
bit contrived.  It would be more plausible (and in many
ways more interesting) to say that the reasoning being
mentioned here has been taken up by critics of the Vilani
and coupled with "certain interpretations" of legends
from the times to allege Vilani cannibalism.

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:30:12 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Suppression Fire

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> someone enters that zone, throw dg equal to half the rounds expended.  

throw dg?
should that be d6, or dog
I like the throwing a dog system better than the current T4 task system

I will write up a system

For a simple task roll, throw 2 chihuahias
for an average task roll, throw 2 beagles
for a difficult task, throw 2 german shepherds
for a staggering task (and you will really be staggering!), throw 2 St Bernards
for an impossible task, throw all of the above

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #866
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 21 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 867



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #865
Task System
Re: Vilani and Long Pig
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #865
Traveller and Java
Re: Vilani and Long pig
Re: Traveller and Java 
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: Intergalatic Naval Architecture
Re: Mac drawing spftware
Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: Signed copy unsigned...
Re: Rule of Man TLs
Re: Supression Fire
Re: Traveller and Java
Re: Picture this...
Re: Age, History, and Book Design
Re: Jump Drives/Space
Re: Revised Task System Discussion (Long)
Re: Picture this...
Jump drive description ?
Converting MT weapons to T4 - repost

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:42:40 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #865

Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:51:24 -0800, Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>;
>However, pseudo-scientifically, I am skeptical that the mass of a jump
>drive is dependent upon the volume of the vessel.

It works for me.  If the point is that you have to make a
"hole" in jump space big enough for the ship, then volume
would be the important parameter.

>This also makes it more difficult to "jump in" those relativistic
>rocks...

Note: relativistic effects are not something you "have".  They
are something that other "see in you".  No matter what
velocity you are travelling, you will never see any
change, in you or your ship, (instead you will see relativisitic
effects in things you are moving toward/away from) and
it is a fundamental basis of relativity that your
reference frame is just as valid as any other.

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:39:40 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Task System

How about this idea (from the man who brought you the Dog system!)

GM arbitrarily picks a number between 3 and 13, and tells players to roll higher than that

(hell, it sustained Traveller for a good twelve years!)

Advantages:
simple
no charts
inconsistency

Disadvantages
no charts
inconsistency

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:27:26 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

>David P. Summers wrote:
>> Atually the Vilani could not have relied on cannibalism to survive
>> more than a short time (months? and it is not clear that any records
>> would even survive from this time to carry on the legend).
>> A society running on cannibalism is like a person eating
>> themselves to live.  Someone someplace has to be able to eat
>> local flora/fauna or the whole thing colapses (and fairly
>> quickly).  At that point, the Vilani have no more reason to
>> rely on cannibalism than Terrans do.


Actually, I think you are mostly right.

However the ramifications of a poor food supply are significant.  I
think the incidence of cannibalism would be higher in general as opposed
to Terrans, who could just as easily shwack a bambi as a human.  The
better fed Cannibilani would be tougher and more dangerous than the
weak, kkree-loving denizens of the woodland forests.  The big guys would
get the women, reproduce preferentially and that would be that until the
meat eaters dominated.  Of course the history doesn't say what the
Shugili used to create their treats-it could have been one of those big
lizard/giraffe beasties in DGP's Vilani sourcebook.  Plenty of meat plus
some there!

The lack of infectious diseases might also be VERY significant, as this
may  be where our social taboo against nibbling on each other may have
come from.  Similar to the taboo against marrying one's own sister-such
bad things happen that the tradition is put to bed real quick.

Without this they may never have developed a revulsion to "feasting,"
although I really think that is a bit TOO alien for my tastes.  No pun
intended:)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:40:20 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #865

The mass vs. volume debate:

I weigh in with mass as the more important factor.  Why?

Mass is WEIRD.  Why are inertial mass(overcome to accelerate an object)
and gravitational mass(for gravitational "field" acceration) the same? 
No one knows why, they just happen to be so.  

Einsteins principal of equvalence says they ARE the same.  Borne out by
scientific experiment to ridiculous numbers.  How'd he come up with
this?  He just assumed so because of the data.

My point is that if you are looking for holes in our physics knowledge
that is probably a better area to probe for jump dependance(the
variable) than volume.  

After all, if you jump a volume of space what happens to the space it
falls into, and what is left at the original site?  All questions there
are no good answers to...

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 12:41:00 +1000
From: Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>
Subject: Traveller and Java

hi,

I've put my first draft at a world generator up at:

	http://www.jcu.edu.au/~ccptd/trav/worldgen.html


I've still got to make the main window look decent on smaller screens.  But the basics are present.  When I get things going properly, I'll let the world at large have access.

But in the meantime, I'd like to hear any comments/suggestions.



Pauli
- --
Dr Paul Dale                    | Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au
c/o Computer Centre             | phone: +61 77 814 551  fax: +61 77 815 230
James Cook University           | http://www.jcu.edu.au/~ccptd/
Townsville                      |
Queensland  4811                | Did you know that there are 42 two letter
Australia                       |     words containing the letter 'a'?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:58:07 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long pig

> The question arises is what are we going for here?  Clearly
> the hitory of Vland doesn't require one to expect cannibalism.
> Do we want to decide before hand that cannibalism exists and
> we are trying to drum up reason for it?  Is this the best
> way of making an interesting background?  I find that a
> bit contrived.  It would be more plausible (and in many
> ways more interesting) to say that the reasoning being
> mentioned here has been taken up by critics of the Vilani
> and coupled with "certain interpretations" of legends
> from the times to allege Vilani cannibalism.


I think that is a better interpretation.  Certainly more in holding with
Traveller than the "Attack of the B Movie Cannibals From Vland."  

Instead of looking at it as why the Vilani didn't have resort to
cannibalism, look at it as an exercise in preferential evolution-natural
selection.  Would cannibilani have an advantage?  Would it be
widespread?  Where did the ruling families come from and how did they
come to power(Shugili?)  I think I can answer this to some degree.

We've had our Donner Pass and Andes soccer team incidents.  People will
do a lot to survive.  If they don't get sick afterwards what is going to
stop them, especially with enemies who provide a tasty, high energy
supplement?  On Earth people die when they continously eat each other. 
It is so taboo and wrong of an issue the Bible doesn't even address it
as an unclean food.  I think the Vilani history should address this
issue, unless we can find a better reason for our own taboo against it
besides

"Well, we die when we eat'em."  

As a rule the species just couldn't survive overall on cannibalism
because of the food pyramid.  That doesn't rule out the "fittest"
surviving on it.

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 13:00:27 +1000
From: Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller and Java 

hi,

I wrote:

>I've put my first draft at a world generator up at:
>	http://www.jcu.edu.au/~ccptd/trav/worldgen.html

>I've still got to make the main window look decent on smaller screens.  But
>the basics are present.  When I get things going properly, I'll let the 
>world at large have access.
>But in the meantime, I'd like to hear any comments/suggestions.

Opps, I didn't mean to send it to the Traveller list :-(

Oh well, since I did.  You'll need a java enabled browser and (probably) a 
largish screen to use the program.




Pauli
- --
Dr Paul Dale                    | Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au
c/o Computer Centre             | phone: +61 77 814 551  fax: +61 77 815 230
James Cook University           | http://www.jcu.edu.au/~ccptd/
Townsville                      |
Queensland  4811                | Did you know that there are 42 two letter
Australia                       |     words containing the letter 'a'?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:25:30 -0800
From: bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

At 11:40 PM 1/20/97 +0000, Bruce E J Lewis wrote:

>	If the ship is destroyed, will the hole remain open? And for how long?
>Will it get smaller or bigger? Could another ship detect energies emanating
>from it, thus enabling its sensors to pin the hole down so it can
>investigate? If the ship blew up in j-space before the hole was sealed, how
 And, once could stipulate that this could be acheeved by simply turning
off the jump drive mid-process, as well.. Jump gates. 
 I would say that it would have to close automaticley, otherwise nearly
every merchant out there is grossley inefficent(carrying that big jump
drive and fuel), and battle raiders with one 'pathfinder' ship to open a
hole right before attack would utterly dominate traveller naval warfare..

>would the physics of j-space affect the explosion? (Difficult I know as
>there is hardly any info on this.) Could the explosion be so powerful as to
>destroy other ships in the vicinity, or the whole star system even? Could
  I doubt it .. otherwise jump-space mines would seem to be probable. Or
you could postulate that what jump-space location you go into is unrealted
to your n-space location and is a mostly random(or terribley tangled thing
.. say a space 1cm away in n-space might be kiloparsecs away in j-space)
and hence the chance of it being close enough to matter are infatesimal.

>any beings who might live in j-space find their way into our universe
>through this hole whereas they never had the ability to cross that
>threshold before? Assuming that if they do exist, although they've never
>before been seen during a normal j-space trip, they could be attracted by
>the explosion.

 As is Traveller canon, j-space and gravity wells don't merge together well
.. so once could assume that any 'life forms' that would live in j-space(or
native j-space 'matter') would be even *more* susceptable to gravity wells
and hence would have to stay many parsecs away from a n-space star..
 This could also suggest that you could find yourself jumping into a
thriving j-space community if you did a jump while in intergalatic space or
inbetween the spiral arms of our galaxy...
bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:51:07 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Intergalatic Naval Architecture

John P. Raynor wrote:
> 
> After fiddling around with the "High Guard" design rules, however,
> something struck me: "Trillion Credit Squadron" has rules for collapsible
> fuel bladders.  Suppose you have a very large insulated compartment,
> adjacent to the engine room, which is normally occupied by a filled
> bladder of fuel.  There are, however, sliding doors set in the aft
> bulkhead of this compartment, which are wide enough to admit entire drive
> systems (one, for example, of the ship's three redundant jump drives).

Excellent point! As a referee though, I'd force the
J-drive/M-drive/P-plant
to be more expensive (say, 25%) and require a bit (say, 10%) more room.
The extra room goes toward designing the components in such a way as to
make removal in this manner easier.

>> I suppose the technological horse I'm beating is beginning to show signs
> of fatal injury, and there's always "G.M. fiat" to fall back on, but I
> guess I just want to "do it right," and develop this odd idea in a manner
> as consistant with the canon, as it is understood here, as possible.  If
> people are getting sick of it, however, please tell me, and I'll drop it.
> 
No, I think that this is a neat idea to play with. Who knows, one day
one of the players in my group might surprise me with a desire to do
this kind of thing. I'll be prepared for that!

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:47:54 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Mac drawing spftware

>John Kovalic asked:
>
>>
>>PS. Any other Mac artists out there? I'm looking for a good layout program
>>that has easy-to-use grid capabilities.
>
>
>        IMHO, BluePrint just plain rocks the free nation...


Finally finding time to go through recent messages, and noticed this, I've
done a little Traveller stuff on my Mac's.  If "Dragonfire is up, you can
check my web page, I've got a ClarisDraw library of Traveller symbols that
I've done up.  Gives you Drag-and-Drop templates for your starship
blueprints (Please note you have to have _ClarisDRAW_ to use it).

As far as I'm concerned ClarisDraw is hands down the best thing around for
doing things like deckplans or sub-sector charts!

I just got KPT Bryce a couple of weeks ago, and I'm trying to find time to
learn how to use it.  I'm hoping to crank out some Traveller artwork with
it!

			Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast          |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer            |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing   |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                      |

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:53:55 -0500
From: fenris@solon.com (Derek Dees)
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

>No, I like awarding every session, but I want the points given to be
>less powerful.
>
>Hmm.  I'm going to have to think about this and come up with a good
>system.
>
>I'm making this my new project.
>
>Kenneth.


Kenneth,

You may want to look at Call of Cthulhu, White Wolf or TORG for different
ways of handling experience and skills aquisistion/improvement.

In CoC, if you have a skill, every time you do something with a skill you
have successfully, you get a "mark" or two. At the end of an adventure any
skill that you used can be increased by rolling percentiles successfully.
IIRC, the base is 10% and each tick is worth 5% additional.

White Wolf and TORG are both very stingy with points, but they charge a
certain amount to buy a new skill, then to improve a skill a player spends
an amount of points equal to the level they are going to. Most Torg
adventures yield 5-10 points, but they can also be used for re-rolls or to
buy damage off. In White Wolf, they are just for purchasing. Again, in
White Wolf, the TORG pattern holds. There is a start up cost and then a
cost to add skill levels. I run a Mage/WereWolf crossover and it is very
rare I give out more than 5 experience points. I've players that save for a
year of real time (due to sporadic playing at certain times of the year)
for relatively minor upgrades.



Derek

fenris@solon.com
http://www.solon.com/~fenris


And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.
                        M. Arnold "Dover Beach"

So come all you lovers of the good life
          on your supermarket run
Set a sail of your own devising
          and be there when the Dutchman comes
                       Jethro Tull "Flying Dutchman"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:51:58 +0000
From: "Bill Hopper" <whopper@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

> From:          Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
> ...deletia...
> Yes. The problem has always been, of course, velocity and orientation
> relative to what? I've always fudged it by saying more explicitly "when
> a ship emerges from jumpspace, a week later, it receives a velocity and
> orientation relative to the nearest local gravity well identical to its
> previous vector relative to the nearest mass it jumped from."
> 
> In other words, if it had a vector of 20 m/s moving away from World A,
> and jumps to another world B, its new vector would be 20 m/s moving away
> from World B. Its exact location is anwhere at 100 dia. of World B, with
> a vector of 20 m/s away.
> 

I have used this interpretation also.  It makes sense to me to use 
the local gravity wells as the references for a jump rather than some 
"galactic north".  It also explains rather neatly why the standard 
procedure in CT was for ships to decelerate  before jumping.  If you 
did not, you would come out of jumpspace headed outsystem.

If you assume a "galactic north" as the reference, it becomes hard to 
explain why _everybody_, especially merchants, don't jump hot as a 
matter of course.  After all, time _is_ money.

There are also some interesting military implications. In the 
gravity-well-reference model, a ship coming out of jump headed 
insystem at a high velocity really had to work at it - by starting 
outsystem in its system of origin and accelerating inward before jumping.  
This would, again IMHO, be considered by the system defenders as an 
inherently hostile act.  They would shoot first and ask questions later.  
In the "galactic north" reference model, system defenders would be much 
less likely to attack an incoming hi-vee ship without working hard to identify it.

IMHO, the implications of the gravity-well-reference model are more 
consistent with the way things worked in the CT universe. And I like 
that consistency.

WKH

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:40:36 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Signed copy unsigned...

In a message dated 97-01-20 07:55:40 EST, you write:

> Harrumph. Humbug

Paul,

So email me at FarFuture@aol.com and I'll arrange to send you a signed
something else. 

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:11:36 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Rule of Man TLs

There have been a lot of complaints about TL 14 items in the CSC, ancient
relics somehow still usable, and so on. Here is my opinion on the matter:

The Third Imperium is merely a speck in a galaxy billions of years old. As
Cleon's scouts, soldiers, and traders venture into this vast new
environment they are going to encounter things they never planned on;
harrowing dangers, fantastic rewards, unexpected rivals. Perhaps there are
description of TL 14 items because somewhere out there are civilizations
(gasp) more advanced than the mighty Imperium! Perhaps those "relics"
aren't as "ancient" as you have been led to believe. Perhaps some TL 12
engineering on salvaged TL 16 materials counts as "TL 14" manufacture.
Perhaps not every TL 12 civilization is going to be identical to Sylea.

I would complain if the TL 14 items were described as standard issue, but
they are not. They are described as "beyond current Imperium expertise" and
"recovered from derelict ships". I see them as adventure hooks and ideas
for new gimmicks. If this doesn't fit into you campaign, don't use them.

Richard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:06:08 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Supression Fire

At 02:49 PM 1/20/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Also, if you read in the sections of TW2k, Dark Conspiracy, or Traveller:TNE
>under automatic fire, there is mention of a danger area and that it can be
>used to keep peoples heads down, but the odds are so low of getting hit in
>this manner that it never really worked.  

Well the general idea of Supression fire is to force the enemy to keep his
head down by filling the area with projectiles.  It isn't aimed so much as
sprayed.  Very wasteful of ammo, but if you've got a MG, it's worth it.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   Never trust a peasant with a loaded fruit pie!    |
|                                 -Terry Austin       |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:06:11 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller and Java

At 12:41 PM 1/21/97 +1000, Paul Dale wrote:

>I've put my first draft at a world generator up at:
>
>	http://www.jcu.edu.au/~ccptd/trav/worldgen.html
>
>I've still got to make the main window look decent on smaller screens.  But
the basics are present.  When I get things going properly, I'll let the
world at large have access.
>
>But in the meantime, I'd like to hear any comments/suggestions.

Ummm... what button?  The page mentions a button, but I do not see one.  I
visited using Navigator 3.0 on a Win 3.1 system, and have had no trouble
with Java sites before.

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   Never trust a peasant with a loaded fruit pie!    |
|                                 -Terry Austin       |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:31:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Picture this...

In mail you write:

>>> Picture your typical players making contact with a 
> civilization that  has Lensmen. :-) <<
>
> Instant warfare! My players would think the lensmen were 
> "damn sneaky Zho mind-rippers" and the lensmen would think 
> my players' characters were "evil corrupt self-serving 
> Boskonian pirates". Ouch.

Unlike the Zhodani, Lensmen don't go around reading minds
indiscriminately. And they don't "re-adjust" people unless they've done
something criminal.

Unless your players are as bad as some folks I used to game with,
they'd be far from Boskonian. 

BTW, one interesting point from the Lensman books. From the precautions
taken at the start of "Gray Lensman" it would appear that unless
special precautions are taken, the standard "screens" have *no* effect
on visible light. 

So a big visible light laser would give them a *nasty* surprise. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:44:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Age, History, and Book Design

In mail you write:

> At 02:38 AM 1/19/97 -0500, Glenn Grant wrote:
>
>>Cool Astro-fact for the Day: there is only one known neutron star within
>>250 light years of Sol, the star 'Geminga' (short for Gemini gamma-ray
>>source, though it also means 'does not exist' in Milanese dialect). Geminga
>>is about 100 light years rimward from Sol. It is the relic of a star that
>>exploded some 370,000 years ago.
>
> Hmmm.. the Niven fanatic in me wonders if this could be BVS-1 (from
> "Protector" and "Neutron star").

Nope. As a gamma ray source, it must still have a bit of a nebula
around it, *and* have a high rate of spin. Both of which disqualify it
for being BVS-1. They also make it hazardous at rather large distances.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:04:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump Drives/Space

In mail you write:

>>1. "This is Captain _____ of the Federation Starship ________, hailing
>>    unidentified ship...." (Star Trek universe)
>>2. "Imperial Star Destroyer Invincible to unidentified ship. Prepare to
>>    be boarded..." (Star Wars universe)
>>3. "Babylon 5 to unidentified vessel...."
>>4. A repeating distress signal. It's coming from an ellipsoidal vessel
>>   10 *miles* long, 5 miles wide and about a mile thick (Metamorphosis:
>>   Alpha)
>>5. "Moonbase Alpha to unidentified vessel..." (Space:1999)
>>6. Morse code light flashes from an odd looking ship with a *propeller*....
>>   "HMS Intrepid to unknown vessel do you require assistance..."
>>   (Space:1889)
>>(I can't think of any other SF:RPGs that have a developed background)
>
> I just had to add this one in...
>
> 7.  Requests for help via com laser from a needle-shaped transparent ship
> orbiting a ringworld. (Ringworld...anybody remember Chaosium?)

Arrgh! I used to *own* a copy of that... I can't believe that I forgot it.

But I think that I'd rather have a Kzinti warship hailing them :-)
(And for that matter, I'd make the Trek ship be Cardassian, Romulan,
Klingon or Borg. And the Bab-5 would be better with either a
"spidership" or a Vorlon ship...)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 03:21:17 -0500 (EST)
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Revised Task System Discussion (Long)

Hi Gang,

Y'know, all this talk about attributes and their impact on task levels
reminded me of an RPG I was working on (for my own edification) a couple
years ago, and the way I handled attributes.  I actually abandoned it because
the skills I was coming up with were... ahem... remarkably... um...
influenced by Traveller and GURPS, not to mention life eating up my free
time.  But, if anyone is interested in seeing a rough (and I mean REALLY
rough) draft, I would gladly e-mail it to you as a .txt. file.  Feel free to
e-mail me privately with any requests.  Later on, my friends.

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, Ignorance."--- Socrates

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 03:35:37 -0500 (EST)
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Picture this...

Hi,

In a message dated 97-01-21 03:00:19 EST, Leonard wrote:

> Unlike the Zhodani, Lensmen don't go around reading minds
>  indiscriminately. And they don't "re-adjust" people unless they've done
>  something criminal.

Yeah, but neither do the Zhos.  Their definition of criminal is perhaps a
little more liberal than ours, but the intent is (I gather), much the same,
i.e., to get people to stop doing that which you find unacceptable.


Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, Ignorance."--- Socrates

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 09:43:02 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Jump drive description ?

Hi,

I would like to know where I could find a jump drive description (how it
works, what are the parts, what it looks like ...)

As a ship engineer in a TNE play, I have to know a little bit about it, but
I haven't found any data.

Let's imagine :"Hey Scotty (yep, easy...), what the jump drive look likes?",
(Me): "Dunno! :-(". Sounds a little bit supide, doesn't it?

If anyone has information, please E-mail me, or just give the adress.

Thanks a lot.
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 09:52:09 UT
From: Rob Brennan <robert.brennan@isocor.ie>
Subject: Converting MT weapons to T4 - repost

Note - I posted this last week and didn't see it, so here it is again,
sorry if people already got it -rob

Hi All,

I don't know if anyone has posted something like this yet, but 
I want to be able to use that long MT weapon list for T4 in my
upcoming campaign.  So I've worked out some conversion
rules of thumb.

Note - this is a quick+dirty system only, decimal point fetishists
beware!

T4 RANGE = MT RANGE - 2 RANGE STEPS

e.g. a MT weapon rated as max Long Range becomes Short
range in T4 (range mod of 2 for aimed attacks)

T4 DAMAGE = MT DAMAGE + P,
where P = MT PENETRATION -3, but P is never less than 0

eg a Pistol with a MT Damage of 3 and Penetration of 1
has a T4 damage of 3 + 0, as P=1-3=-2 but has a min of 0

Weapon e.g. 1 
a PGMP-12 (yesssss!) from MT is rated as Damage 12, 
Penetration 20 and Max Range Distant.
In T4 this becomes damage 29, range Long (+4 on aimed attacks)
(perhaps this weapon is beyond the workable range of the conversion
rules but I included it anyway)

Weapon e.g. 2
a Gauss Rifle in MT is rated as Damage 4, Penetration 7 and
max range V.Long
Thus the T4 stats are damage 8, range Medium

Weapon e.g 3
a custom pistol with MT stats has a Damage of 3, Penetration 2
and a max range of Medium
The T4 Damage is 3, range V.Short

All the other stats such as mass, number of rounds etc can be used
directly.  These rules of thumb are really only checked for personal
weapons, but go ahead and use it for your startship lasers if you
want!

Any comments welcome.  

rgds
rob


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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #867
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 22 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 868



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

APOLOGY, Ship Design, Vilani Cannibalism & Taste Buds
Re: Place to get old Traveller stuff (MT, some TNE)
Classic Traveller Auction #2
Re: VDS TL-12 Fusion+ contragrav pogo stick.
Re: Vacuum welding
FFS -> T4
Re: Idea for IG to get rich
Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle
Re: Mac drawing spftware
Re: Magellanic Expeditions
Re: Melee weapons
Re: Traveller/BAB5
Re: Picture this...
Re: Traveller/BAB5
Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle
Re: TL 14 relics in the Year 0
E-Circuit
Tank Fuel Tank (?)
CSC Interior Art
Maintain old ship
Re: Vilani and Long Pig

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:54:14 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: APOLOGY, Ship Design, Vilani Cannibalism & Taste Buds

APOLOGY

It has been pointed out that my previous postings on DGP sounded rather
negative. Yup, they were. Totally my fault (and not my intention) because I
wasn't thinking straight and getting too het up about my pet subject.

I've apologised to Roger (Sanger) for the inconvenience this may have caused
him; as I explained in my previous e-mail, the focus of my anger was about
getting one's butt out there and doing things to promote Traveller rather
than just moaning about the current situation (an awful lot of which has
happened on this list) and *hoping* that things will get better just like
that. I shouldn't have dragged DGP into this. I also said a few things that
were potentially out of date and I foolishly didn't put in the usual
caviats, "to my (limited) knowledge", etc.

I have every hope that DGP will be allowed to use their previous products
(through new writers, etc.) to help make Traveller the success it deserves
to be. Roger and I both believe that we (DGP and CORE) can make a positive
and coordinated contribution to Traveller and Imperium Games. We do not view
each other as competitors and we will try to maintain consistency and
compatibility across our products.

That'll teach me for writing replies when I'm hassled at work!

SHIP DESIGN

Hugh Foster commented:
>>> Don Perrin never told me that ships needed these [rescue 
>>>balls]. Do any of the ships  in the book have these? I 
>>>don't recall seeing any.  Also I think they  are pretty 
>>>dopey, and the chance of them being used pretty slim.
>This bespeaks a lack of co-ordination. The ball has been 
>declared "canon", at least as far as this supplement is 
>concerned, by the statements in its' design. And one of the 
>supplement's authors doesn't know this. There should be 
>consensus among the authors, surely?

I would assume that this is a rule in much the same way that we currently
make rules about how much cement should be mixed with how much sand when
building a house. 1:20 is a non-optimal mixture. As a result at least one
entire housing estate has been recommended to be pulled down pronto within
only a year or so of it having been constructed... "rules" are made to be
broken. The resulting dangers may be minimal or they may be great. Previous
versions of Traveller have had plenty of compact inflatable rescue balls,
cheap emergency vac suits, etc. without having to dedicate any specific
space to them...

VILANI CANNIBALISM

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> This sure seems to be a dirty little secret about the Vilani, doesn't it? So,
> was it revulsion atr cannibalism that forced the Vilani to find out how to
> prepare local foodstuffs so they would be digestible to humans? Or was it a
> shortage of people to eat?

After a short while of eating each other, some of the Vilani started going
"Mooooo" and falling over a lot. The government screwed around for 10-20
years, knowing pretty much that a killer prion virus was to blame, but being
too indecisive (and pressurised, since they had substantial back-handers
from the wealthier land-owners some of whom actually cultivated criminal
farms to feed the rich) to do anything. Eventually there was public outcry,
but the government showed how concerned it was by saying that only young
babies shouldn't be fed the 'contaminated' meat. A minister even fed his own
child some Vilani carcass to show how safe it was. However, after more
outcry, a mass criminal-burning campaign was begun and the scientists worked
out that it was all too late and up to one third of their population was
probably at risk of dying from this disease. They wouldn't know for certain
for another 10-20 years because of its long incubation period.

A telling story. A pity they didn't learn from the history of Terra...

VILANI TASTE BUDS

>>A Vargr in my game could identify branches of Humaniti by taste. IIRC,
>>Zhodani were slightly spicy, Solomani were salty, and Vilani were a bit
>>tasteless.
>Great idea, Andrew, but I wonder if it holds water? I would think that the
>taste of two members of the same species would depend a lot more on their
>individual diet than on their race.

You'll have to imagine the following advert written in gothic script for a
suitable TL 2-4 Vilani society:

*****

BUY KUSHGENKI!
At Kushgenki Meat Products we use only the highest quality corn-fed
Ghuski[1] in our delicious pies, burgers and steaks. Fast-fattened Ghuski
enjoy a quality free-range existence[2] which gives them that unique
Kushgenki taste. We frown upon the chained slavery practices utilised by
cheaper down-market producers. BUY KUSHGENKI! BUY QUALITY!

*****

([1] Ghuski being the Vilani word at that point for criminal, drifter,
down-and-out, accountant, etc.)
([2] within the high security Kushgenki farming enclosures, with well-armed
guards and the highest perimeter palisades this side of the Yeon tower)

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:53:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Place to get old Traveller stuff (MT, some TNE)

On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Mused wrote:

> I went to a local convention yesterday and bought a mint copy of Referee's book, players' 
> book and Rebellion sourcebook for $20 for the lot. They had the seeker deck plans, and a 
> few things for TNE. They also had the MT vehicle guide for $5.95 (Canadian)
> 
> Their mail order address is 
> 
> FOLIO INTERACTIVE
> 9251 Yonge St 8-130
> Richmond Hill, Ontario
> L4C 9T3
> Canada
> 
> Phone 905-841-0068
> 
For those who use full size (like, 1"=1.5m  squares I think) deck plans, I
highly recommend the seeker deck plans.  I picked up the whole bunch at
GenCon this past year (paid a pretty penny too!) and did not regret the
investment.

Be sure to get the mega-packs, not the individual ones (saves some money).

Detail is down to chairs and bunks, and with a little imagination
condiment stands and salad bars.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:59:49 GMT
From: sdollar@goodnet.com (Stuart L. Dollar)
Subject: Classic Traveller Auction #2

sdollar@goodnet.com (Stuart L. Dollar) wrote:

A friend of mine has the following Classic Traveller Items available
for Auction:

1) Traveller Boxed Set:
Books 1-3
1st Edition (1977), 5th Printing
Very Good Condition

$25:  Ross Coburn ross@ican.net

2) Traveller Boxed Set
Books 1-3
1st Edition (1977), 9th Printing
Very Good

$20:  ross@ican.net

3) Book 4, Mercenary
1st Edition (1978), 2nd Printing
Very Good
Minimum Bid $4
There are 2 copies of this one, in very similar condition.

$15:  dmalnati@usa.net or dmalnati@absi.com

4) Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society #6
Very Good
Minimum Bid $4

Here are the rules for the auction:

1)  The first phase of the auction will run from today, Monday,
January 20, 1997 through 1200 AM, MST, February 3, 1997.  

At the end of the first phase of bidding, the top 2 bidders (3 in the
case of Mercenary) will be notified by e-mail to submit a final bid.
They will have until 1200 AM, MST, February 7, 1997 to submit the
final bid.  Winning bidders will be the person who bids highest.  He
will pay $1 more than the next highest bid regardless of what he bid.
For example:

Bidder A bids $17
Bidder B bids $14
Bidder A wins the item and pays $15 ($14+$1)

2)  Bid prices do not include shipping

3)  Minimum Bid increments are $1

4)  Payment will be taken by check or money order in US$ only.
Payment by check will require a 2 week holding period for the check to
clear.  Money orders will be shipped the following day.

5) Bids will be accepted by e-mail only to:
sdollar@goodnet.com

6) Updates to the auction will be posted daily to USENet and the list.

7) Please indicate which copy of the Traveller Boxed Set you are
bidding on.

Thanks,
Stu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 18:04 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: VDS TL-12 Fusion+ contragrav pogo stick.

In-Reply-To: <v01510100af06b68f523a@[198.168.183.214]>

You are a very sick individual. Keep it up!

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Vacuum welding

In-Reply-To: <32E03EB3.4B2@flash.net>

<< Jay, your bullshitium on vacuum welding was great! It just became an
official part of my Traveller technologies folder. Geez, Jay, it reads
like a treatise out of FF&S! (That's a compliment, BTW) >>

Agreed! Very good.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:01:50 -0600
From: Jeff Schmidt <jschmidt@netco.com>
Subject: FFS -> T4

Greetings all!

I just got into T4, having played a little CT way back, but not MT or TNE.
I found a used copy of FFS for cheap, and have been playing around with
that.  So, here's my question: is there any conversion ratio for damages
generated for TNE, into T4 damages?  Specifically, the damage for a small
laser pistol I worked up seems a little high.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Schmidt                         | NetCo Communications Corporation
software engineer, Mac development   | 333 N. Washington Ave. Ste. 102
(612) 519-0878                       | Minneapolis MN 55401, USA
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Idea for IG to get rich

In-Reply-To: <199701171441.JAA07712@mag1.magmacom.com>

<< THis gives me an idea for IG - they should allow people to buy 
systems and have them named after them! I wonder if First Survey have 
gone to the printers yet... >>

This has been suggested before, and I think it's an excellent idea. If 
the 'owner' then writes up 'their' system, then it's even better.

A slight variation on the idea, how about IG selling Imperial Noble 
titles? Say, $50 for a Baron, $500 for a Duke (with modifiers for the 
desirability of the area governed).

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle

In-Reply-To: <19970118124034.AAA9767@LOCALNAME>

<< Length? 100 cm = 1 meter; 1.558 meters long? 5 feet? Wouldn't this 
require some kind of a minimum strength or dexterity to use, unless it 
is always mounted on something?  

I may not have the hang of the meteric system, but a 5 foot long gun 
seems a bit unwieldy. Certainly not going to get may places without 
drawing LOTS of attention. >>

It's about the same length as the Barrett M82A1 .50-cal rifle. Not the 
sort of thing you can hide in your pocket, true, but when you're 
carrying one, who's gonna argue? :-)

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:21:15 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mac drawing spftware

For those of you who are NOT Claris Draw enabled, I have these files as a
large PICT file, as well as a MacDraw Pro library. If there are gazillions
of you MacFolk out there who want them I'll put them on my web site, or
give them to say, Zane, (If he wants them )to put on his site. Otherwise I
can mail them to you. 

Having finally got them translated to a format I can use, I must say, they
are nice!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> Finally finding time to go through recent messages, and noticed this, I've
> done a little Traveller stuff on my Mac's.  If "Dragonfire is up, you can
> check my web page, I've got a ClarisDraw library of Traveller symbols that
> I've done up.  Gives you Drag-and-Drop templates for your starship
> blueprints (Please note you have to have _ClarisDRAW_ to use it).
> 
> As far as I'm concerned ClarisDraw is hands down the best thing around for
> doing things like deckplans or sub-sector charts!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:06:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Magellanic Expeditions

"John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu> wrote:

> Basically, here's the idea: a one-way colonization flight to the Large
> Magellenic Cloud.  Yes, it would take centuries, and the wear-and-tear on
> the jump drives would be quite brutal, but given enough redundancy, and
> really extensive on-board repair facilities (the biggest "question mark,"
> I think), it doesn't seem entirely beyond the realm of reason - just
> extraordinarily difficult (and expensive).

Grin.  You're not the only one to stumble onto this idea.  Somewhere around
here I've got a design of the _Doradus_, a twenty-million displacement-ton
jumpram, built for that very mission, using FF&S rules.  

The idea was that it could accelerate up to ramscoop operating speed, and
use the interstellar hydrogen to refuel the jump drive.  I think it could
manage a jump after three days of refueling, giving a flight time of about
250 years or so.  The assumption was that it could travel in a straight
line and stay in the Magellanic Stream of hydrogen, and that it was dense
enough to work out.  The ship was tech-15, jump-6, a truly unbelievable
black-globe added just because I could, and cost something like TCr 20.
(Yes, teracredits, one-followed-by-nine-zeros.)  I think it had eight of 
the largest PEMS detectors I could find, configured as two fixed arrays 
of four, one for navigation and one for scientific research.  

I recall there were some design problems I never fixed before I abandoned
it.  Jump-drive surface area was almost certainly one of them, and might
be a show-stopper.  It uses a ramscoop, which might be a problem; luckily
for the storyline fusion rockets are sufficient for normal STL travel, 
but ramscoops are needed for jumprams to work.  I don't remember what I
did about the maintenance problem; some way to get a starport aboard 
would be ideal.  :)  Flight time shouldn't be a problem, again because
the Vilani and Solomani both managed long-duration conventional STL trips
this long at only tech-9.  Real-space velocity wasn't any faster than
those ships either, so that also wasn't a problem.  I'd have to dig it
up and look it over to figure out just what needed to be fixed.

> 1) Suppose a spaceship has reached a substantial fraction of the speed of
> light, perhaps via a HEPlaR maneuver drive supplied by an electromagnetic
> (or gravitic) "ram-scoop."  Is there any canonical reason why such a
> fast-moving spaceship couldn't enter jump space?

Not that I've ever heard.  Don't look too closely at relativity and jump
drive at the same time, or you'll start to find inconsistencies and get 
confused.  :)  For instance, don't start asking questions about how long
a week in jumpspace is at hyperrelativistic velocities.      

> 2) Suppose that fast-moving spaceship successfully enters jump space.
> When it emerges from jump space, a week later, will it retain its original
> velocity and orientation?

Yes, relative to the planet of departure.

> 3) Does anyone have any idea how one would describe a electromagnetic (or
> gravitic) "ram-scoop" in terms of the existing design rules?

FF&S had optional rules, if you want to allow them.  

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:23:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 Neveron@aol.com wrote:

> Pete, Can we have a hyper-vibro-ninja-death star dagger. I don't know exactly
> what it is but it sounds neat.
> dsf

As you well know by now, anything that sounds neat is right out.

By the end of this evening (by which I know you will not have read your
mail), I intend to introduce you to the wonders of 57th century Strephon
on Velvet Paintings.

Tata

Pete 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:15:15 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller/BAB5

On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> > Two things has anybody attempted yet to convert BAB5 to T4, i'd be
> > interested in this, a friend of mine is trying to create the NAAN at the
> > moment,
> 
> Why do you want to go to all the work of conversion, Colin, when the 
> B5 game is due out any time?

{self-satirical mode on}

Heretic!  

You would suggest using other than the sacred Traveller RPG to do
*anything*!?!

I've almost finished my AD&D to Megatraveller conversion and you come up
with something like this?

Burn him!

[frantically trying to light a torch with a non-functional lighter]

{self satirical mode off}

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:36:56 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Picture this...

At 12:31 PM 1/20/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>Unlike the Zhodani, Lensmen don't go around reading minds
>indiscriminately. And they don't "re-adjust" people unless they've done
>something criminal.

Ah, but remember.. to the Zhodanni, unhappiness and disatifaction are cause
for reducation..  The Consulate is your Friend.  Go with the nice
Troubleshooters..errr  Tavrchedle' citizen..

+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   Never trust a peasant with a loaded fruit pie!    |
|                                 -Terry Austin       |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:15:15 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller/BAB5

On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> > Two things has anybody attempted yet to convert BAB5 to T4, i'd be
> > interested in this, a friend of mine is trying to create the NAAN at the
> > moment,
> 
> Why do you want to go to all the work of conversion, Colin, when the 
> B5 game is due out any time?

{self-satirical mode on}

Heretic!  

You would suggest using other than the sacred Traveller RPG to do
*anything*!?!

I've almost finished my AD&D to Megatraveller conversion and you come up
with something like this?

Burn him!

[frantically trying to light a torch with a non-functional lighter]

{self satirical mode off}

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:34:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Garry Ward wrote:

> At 05:13 AM 1/18/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >Length overall: 155.8 cm
> ><snip>
> >
> Length? 100 cm = 1 meter; 1.558 meters long? 5 feet? Wouldn't this require
> some kind of a minimum strength or dexterity to use, unless it is always
> mounted on something?  
> 
> I may not have the hang of the meteric system, but a 5 foot long gun seems a
> bit unwieldy. Certainly not going to get may places without drawing LOTS of
> attention.
> 
I don't think he was designing a concealable weapon.

5 feet, while long, is not unbelievable.  Especially if the weapon is to
be used as a medium to long distance (150 to 1000 meters) shooting.
Remember, the longer the barrel, the more time the round has to stabilize
(and accelerate, of course).

Civil war rifles and muskets were probably not much shorter.

At the same time, better leave this item behind if you are hunting the
two-legged type of game in a starport warehouse (which is the kind of
hunting usually happening at our game table), I don't think you could slew
it around very fast.

Pete  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:42:44 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: TL 14 relics in the Year 0

Richard Hough writes:
>I would complain if the TL 14 items were described as standard issue, but
>they are not. They are described as "beyond current Imperium expertise" and
>"recovered from derelict ships". 

But that still implies that within 20-30 parsecs of Sylea at least one TL 
14+ civilization existed not so very many centuries ago. That alone is so
interesting that it would have a major impact on the background. At the
very least the Hightechian civilization would be known throughout the
Imperium (in name if nothing else) and deserves a note in the history
books.

Btw. what are the prices quoted on these TL 14 items? Are they a lot higher
than CT/MT prices for the same items? If not, then there is at least one
major mistake right there. Such relics would be _valuable_.

>I see them as adventure hooks and ideas for new gimmicks. 

I see them as the same. I'm working on an adventure set in the Sword Worlds
in 71 and one gimick is an amazing, never-before-seen laser pistol WITH AN
INTEGRAL POWER PACK!!! Zowie!!!! (Reverent whisper: "That's a Darrian Old
Technology weapon!!! Where did that come from?")

>If this doesn't fit into you campaign, don't use them.

That comment and variations on it really bugs me. I'm fully aware that I
don't need anyone's permission to change anything I damn well want in my
own game. That's not the issue. The issue is that FLT radios and warp drives
and magically appearing high-tech relics don't fit into the _official_ 
Traveller Universe. The magic of the Traveller experience is the high
degree of consistency which (despite some major mistakes) it still retains
after 20 years of work by multiple authors. I know it's not perfect, and that
mistakes are inevitable, but that dosen't mean we shouldn't try our best to
avoid them. I know I can "just" filter out the mistakes, but then, I could 
also "just" write my own background. But I want to be able to draw on more 
material than I can manage to create on my own, and any mistakes I have to 
correct is just so much more unnecessary bother. Wouldn't it be better if 
the mistakes weren't made in the first place?



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 97 15:43:22 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: E-Circuit

>> Maintenance is handled by a device called an  Eternity 
Circuit from Paranoia Press's Merchants & Merchandise. <<

Aaargghh!!! I remember it well! I'd never allow it in my 
game, though. If your ship is shot down, it re-creates it 
magically. The old Collapsium armour/invulnerable 97th 
level Paladin strikes again!

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| Behind every successful man stands a surprised               |
| mother-in-law. (Hubert Humphrey)                             |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 97 15:43:12 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Tank Fuel Tank (?)

>> There is really no need for the amount  of fuel carried 
either, as, as any Tanker (or wargamer, or military  
historian) will tell you, tanks rarely operate for 5 hours 
*continuously*  at a time even in battle -- and if they're 
cut off from logistics and  resupply, it won't matter if 
they've got a 200 hour duration. <<

The rules of thumb you're working from here all assume a 
Terra-normal operating environment. Even if my tank were 
only fighting 5 hours, I'd still like to be able to breathe 
while I rest and wait for the next push... I do agree, 
though that 4 d-tons fuel for a ground tank is excessive.

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| Life is too short to stuff a mushroom.                       |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 97 15:43:15 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: CSC Interior Art

>>Companion Bot <<

That was something that jarred amongst a generally vastly 
better product. The Companion Bot. According to the 
Traveller time and Tech lines, at TL 12 robots of any sort 
are _just_ practical. By this we mean bean cans on wheels 
with a "yes <clank> master" mentality. But here's this illo 
and write-up of a pseudobio robot only a hair less 
convincing than AB-101! At the beginning of TL-12! 

OK, if the stated aim is to cover all milleux. But it 
isn't, all the stuff released so far is supposed to be for 
M0. BTW, was there some blurb about persecuted psionics in 
the JTAS adventure - haven't it to hand? I thought anti-PSI 
prejudice was about 700-800 Imperial. 

Still, more like CSC and JTAS please! I _especially_ like 
the landscape B&W art in JTAS. More! Bigger! Colour! :) IG 
are on the right track again.

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| Faith will not die while seed catalogs are printed.          |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 97 15:43:18 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Maintain old ship

>> >How in the heck do they do maintenance on this thing? 
Some materials  >and technological devices must be 
impossible to find even with the  >few TL16 worlds in the 
Imperium. Even in the Vanguard Reaches/Beyond  >sectors 
published by Paranoia Press, the highest TL was 17. 

 Well.. They haven't. They just fly it as long as it works 
while the ships  tech is having a hellova time just trying 
to analyze it. The only reason  they even got the ship 
working was because of the robot steward whose name  is... 
Steward.  :) <<

When I put in (temporarily!) a whizzy TL21 ship for my 
players to love an' cuddle, the bridge contained chairs. 
Just that. Nothing else. Except a humaniform full AI robot 
called Rowena (a smasher, actually!) to whom you talked. 
She was integral to the computer systems and when she 
understood the crew's wishes, the ship responded. All the 
other systems were automatic or robotic. _That's_ what 
extreme high-tech does to control systems. Add a big enough 
computer, and you can calculate out your crew. 

Boy, were they pissed when she went home! :>

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| Such is the human race. Often it does seem a pity that Noah  |
| and his party didn't miss the boat. (Mark Twain)             |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:48:25 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

[Combining replies to the same author on the same subject....]
Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:27:26 -0800, Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>;

[Stuff about how a species can't exist on cannibalism....]
>Actually, I think you are mostly right.

"Mostly"????  :-)

[Stuff about better nutrition from cannibalism in a situation
where food supplies were barely adequate....]
>The big guys would
>get the women, reproduce preferentially and that would be that until the
>meat eaters dominated..

Three problems.  One is that barely adequate food supplies are
not rare on the Earth either.  So if this reasoning were
correct we should be equally cannibalistic.

Also, the cannibals can't dominate and keep up cannibalism.
If the fittest are surviving better they become more and
more and more numerous compared to the non-canibals.
Then they either have to give it up or turn on each other.

Finally, the fact is the _anticannibalism_ is locked in genetically
and is why humans don't, in fact, resort to such things unless
faced with imminent death (and usually, exceptions not withstanding,
not even then).  Even if we ignore the previous, the fact that
cannibalism isn't good for social species would assert itself
after the population adjusted itself to meet the food supply
(and it will, cannibalism or no).

>The lack of infectious diseases might also be VERY significant, as this
>may  be where our social taboo against nibbling on each other may have
>come from.

While the _relative_ lack of diseases (diseases won't be non-existant,
just less common) lessens _one_ of the problems the others
still remain.  Also, the main driving force is that the
dynamic of cannibalism make it hard to use for species
survival and nearly impossible for social species.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #868
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 22 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 869



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Vilani and Long pig
Re: Jump drive description ?
aargh, this is poor
pogo sticks...
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: Jump Drives/Space
Something else missing in T4
Re: TL 14 relics in the Year 0
Good News for Traveller!
Misjump frequencies
Gridlore Technologies Delivers!
Early Vilani snack foods
webpage adress!!
Galactic-printout-possibility!
TLWH & CORE
Re: E-Circuit
IG Prices
IG Mailing List
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Traveller on IRC
*****************  DGP  *****************

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:53:06 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long pig

Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:58:07 -0800, Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>;
>> The question arises is what are we going for here?  Clearly
>> the hitory of Vland doesn't require one to expect cannibalism.
>> Do we want to decide before hand that cannibalism exists and
>> we are trying to drum up reason for it?  Is this the best
>> way of making an interesting background?  I find that a
>> bit contrived.  It would be more plausible (and in many
>> ways more interesting) to say that the reasoning being
>> mentioned here has been taken up by critics of the Vilani
>> and coupled with "certain interpretations" of legends
>> from the times to allege Vilani cannibalism.

>I think that is a better interpretation.  Certainly more in holding with
>Traveller than the "Attack of the B Movie Cannibals From Vland."

>Instead of looking at it as why the Vilani didn't have resort to
>cannibalism, look at it as an exercise in preferential evolution-natural
>selection.  Would cannibilani have an advantage?  Would it be
>widespread?  Where did the ruling families come from and how did they
>come to power(Shugili?)  I think I can answer this to some degree.

I think you miss my point.  Rather than trying to invent reasons
why the Vilani would be cannibalistic, it would be better
to say that such reasons are simply anti-Vilani propaganda.
That way it doesn't matter if they are flawed or
not and they still cast the same light on the Vilani.

>We've had our Donner Pass and Andes soccer team incidents.

True, these are examples of how humans only resort to
cannibalism when faced with imminent death.  They didn't
do it because they want more protein in their diet.  What
is more these incedents are, in fact, the exception (which
is why they are so well known :-) and, even in the face
of starvation, on a few people will resort to cannibalism.

Now, faced with anti-Vilani propaganda the Vilani might
respond with counter charges, exagerating such incidents
among other branches of humaniti.  This might lead to
the prejudice amoung other races that humans are
prone to cannibalism.

"Sure, we Vargr eat our meat raw.  There's nothing
wrong with that and it certainly beats eating each
other!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:25:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@linda.teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Jump drive description ?

On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I would like to know where I could find a jump drive description (how it
> works, what are the parts, what it looks like ...)
> 
> As a ship engineer in a TNE play, I have to know a little bit about it, but
> I haven't found any data.
> 
> Let's imagine :"Hey Scotty (yep, easy...), what the jump drive look likes?",
> (Me): "Dunno! :-(". Sounds a little bit supide, doesn't it?
> 
> If anyone has information, please E-mail me, or just give the adress.
> 
> Thanks a lot.
> -----------
> Nicolas LEJEUNE
>    Engineer, Paris, France
>    Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
>    nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr
> 

Well, let's see.  The J-Drive is going to be broken up into zukkid (I'm at
work, so I'm not sure that 'zukkid' is the correct name) crystal mounts,
controls, power supply, and fuel supply.

The fuel lines are going to be big, to accomodate the high demand just
prior to jump.  They will also be well insulated.  I seem to recall that
the crystals are cooled by the L-Hyd fuel as well, so there will be feeder
lines to and from the crystal casing, as well as valved to secure the flow
for crystal maintenance and replacement.  While most of the fuel
routing is probably accomplished prior to entry to the J-Drive room,
there will be some rather large, brightly colored emergency fuel
switches to prioritize fuel flow to the J-drive.  

The fuel pumps are going to be high speed jobbies and are going to require
a lot of power.  There should be primary and secondary fuel pumps to allow
for maintenance work and failure redundancy.  Again, there will be valves
for fuel control.

I don't have a lot of detail worked out for the crystal casing.  There
will be fuel pipes running in and out of the case, as well as high tension
power lines running into it.  There will also be Lanthium web connections
running to it, but I imagine it would be more of a buss running to another
control panel where the actualy timing and activation is controlled from.
I would anticipate that there will be viewports (possibly armored) so that
the crystals could be inspected visually.  Each crystal should have a
separate access plate or door for mainenance, possibly it's own
fuel/cooling line running in and out.

The jump reactor, from what I have read, is a reactor that runs for short
periods of time, generates a heck of a lot of power, then releases it in
controlled bursts.  It would have to be a fusion reactor (keeping with the
fuel type) feeding into a really large bank of accumulaters.

Your control station could easily be a standard workstation, but I would
imagine that the discrete parts also have guages and idiot lights for
redundancy.

Hope that helps, and I look forward to any further detail the I am sure
will be added!  :)

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 22:29:19 UT
From: "Harry McGowan" <AL_THE_MAD@msn.com>
Subject: aargh, this is poor

Can you believe it!!! They changed the spelling of vacc. suit to vac suit in 
T4...............Stunned silence.........
Al

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:53:54 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: pogo sticks...

Rich Ostorero wrote:

>Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>>
>>         You can do some fun stuff with Contra-grav and Fusion+.  Just
>> imagine; a pogo stick capable of reaching orbit if you hotwire it (re-entry
>> might be a bit dicey).  And just think about how pissed off the Mothers
>> Against Grav Cycle Carnage are going to be :).
>
>Ghods, the mind reels . . .
>
><<lunacy deleted>>
>>
>>
>>         Design notes: credit for the inspiration goes to Ross Coburn, who
>
>You mean "Blame," not "credit," right?? :)


        Well, yeah.  The pogo stick is Ross's fault.  I just crunched the
numbers :).


>
>This is a SIIICCCKKK idea . . . . and I love it.


        Rumour has it those fun-loving guys at FSG&T are working on
HEPlaR-powered inline rollerskates.  Stay tuned.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:59:13 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
> Yes. The problem has always been, of course, velocity and orientation
> relative to what?

Actually, conservation of momentum is a well defined physical
concept and it say that velocity and orientation are
preserved in you reference frame (any frame, as long
as it's inertial and you keep using the same one).
The fact that you are displaced several light years
in the reference frame is irrelevant.

> In other words, if it had a vector of 20 m/s moving away from World A,
> and jumps to another world B, its new vector would be 20 m/s moving away
>from World B. Its exact location is anwhere at 100 dia. of World B, with
>> a vector of 20 m/s away.

No.  You are 100 dia. away from World B, moving a 20 m/s with
respect to World _A_.  (Or more exactly, with respect
where World _A_ was, and was headed, a week ago when you
last measured).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:48:36 +0000 (GMT)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives/Space

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >
> > 7.  Requests for help via com laser from a needle-shaped transparent ship
> > orbiting a ringworld. (Ringworld...anybody remember Chaosium?)
> 
> Arrgh! I used to *own* a copy of that... I can't believe that I forgot it.

   Speaking of which...if _anyone_ has a copy of this game, let me know!


- -- DLH                                      lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "The fact that slaughter is a horrifying spectacle must make us take
war more seriously, but does not provide an excuse for gradually
blunting our swords in the name of humanity. Sooner or later, someone
will come along with a sharper sword and hack off our arms."
                                                  - Karl von Clausewitz

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:55:36 +1000
From: Shane.Dowling@deetya.gov.au
Subject: Something else missing in T4

Sorry  if this has been said before but,

On the page(sorry but don't have book with me at work) with the drawing
of weapons it has an auto pistol but there are no stats for it where the
other weapons are defined.  The SMG can use Auto pistol rounds and that
is the only written  reference I have found of it.  I also find it a bit
strange that the pistols are black powder or TL 10 or higher but the SMG
TL5 can use auto pistol ammo but at what TL does the auto pistol appear.

Shane Dowling

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:07:45 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: TL 14 relics in the Year 0

The issue is that FLT radios and warp drives
> and magically appearing high-tech relics don't fit into the _official_
> Traveller Universe. The magic of the Traveller experience is the high
> degree of consistency which (despite some major mistakes) it still retains
> after 20 years of work by multiple authors. I know it's not perfect, and that
> mistakes are inevitable, but that dosen't mean we shouldn't try our best to
> avoid them. I know I can "just" filter out the mistakes, but then, I could
> also "just" write my own background. But I want to be able to draw on more
> material than I can manage to create on my own, and any mistakes I have to
> correct is just so much more unnecessary bother. Wouldn't it be better if
> the mistakes weren't made in the first place?
> 
>       Hans Rancke


I'll weigh in and agree.  I think part of the fun with Traveller is
fitting things in between the cracks.  I run a fairly high tech game,
probably beyond the scope of most.  Nevertheless it is consistent with
Imperial Traveller TL15-16, and although I've dragged players across
various VERY high tech worlds most Traveller players would be
comfortable.  No  FTL radios or tons of ancients artifacts here.

The modularity of players and concepts makes it interesting to me,
almost as if people were running in the same game.  Too much
inconsistency breaks structure down, because the shared universe isn't
really shared anymore.

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:03:27 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Good News for Traveller!

Hi folks,

Courtney called me tonight, and we discussed some stuff that might be of 
interest to you:

1)  All future T4 products will be reviewed by MWM at each stage of the 
process (on a chapter-by-chapter basis).  In the past, Marc wasn't passed 
a copy of the products in time to do a full review, when he was given 
them at all (as I understand it).  Now, Marc will be able to provide the 
benefit of his incredible imagination and knowledge as the products are 
created.  

2)  IG has some great stuff planned for Traveller this year.  

    a)  JTAS will go to slick stock with color interiors, and will 
generally look a lot more like a high-quality, mainstream magazine.  
There will be a monthly comic strip, an editorial, a letters page, and so 
on. 

    b)  Citizens of the Imperium will be beefed up with an ID card, online 
"inside info," product discounts, and so on and so forth.  Details still 
being worked out.

    c)  He's looking into an all-Traveller convention being held at some 
point.

    d)  Art for all future products will be produced specifically for 
those products; no more "generic" art!!  

    e)  The web site will continue to be expanded.  More links.  Also, a 
Sector-type map will be put in, with each of the fan sites appearing as a 
solar system on it which can be clicked on to go to that site.  Expanded 
support for the IRC on the website.  And so on.

    f)  Professional editing and graphic design will be used for all 
future products!

    G)  This year's Gen-Con will see Traveller with a far, far bigger 
presence.

In short, Courtney believes in Traveller, and he's devoting a lot of his 
attention to it.  With Tim Brown doing the day-to-day product 
management, and Marc Miller being involved at every step of the product 
design process, 1997 will truly be the year of Traveller.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:00:39 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Misjump frequencies

> 
> Traveller-digest      Monday, January 20 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 866
> 
> 
> 
> (R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
> All rights reserved.
> 
> The following topics are covered in this digest:
> 
> Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
> Re: VDS TL-12 Fusion+ contragrav pogo stick.
> Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
> Re: SSDS & QSDS omission
> Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
> Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
> Inconsistencies
> Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
> Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
> Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
> [long] Wil's Alternate Task System 
> Vilani as pets (was Vilani & long pig)
> Intergalatic Naval Architecture
> Re: Vilani and Long Pig
> RE: Role-Playing and Task Systems
> Re: Vilani and Long pig
> Re: Suppression Fire
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:21:15 -0800
> From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
> Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
> 
> Joseph E. Walsh wrote:
> > 
> > Not to resurrect the task system debate [G], but I've been thinking about
> > applying DM's based on the quality of role-play involved.  For instance,
> > someone who, when his character is confronted with a ground car that
> > requires repair, says, "So I fix it" might get a -2 DM.  Someone who
> > says, "After disconnecting the thirbig line of the Fusion Plus module, I
> > hook up the AutoDiag to the car's comp.  Discovering that it's a problem
dominicreynolds writes:
>A lurker is amazed by the odds of misjump stated above.  Even with
>the best maintained ship and supurb ship the misjump chances appear
>to be closer to one in six, especially on new starships.

According to page 116 of the main rulebook the risk of a misjump is 1 in 36.
(Which, btw. I think is a mistake. You could propably run an interstellar
economy with such a risk, but it would be a far cry from the one portrayed
in Traveller). 

With 1 chance in 6 of a misjump jump-1 travel becomes impossible and jump-2
travel a bad gamble (An average misjump puts you 10 parsecs away from your 
point of jump; once a jump-1 ship misjumps it's chance of ever making it 
back home is rather bad while a jump-2 ship may just make it back before
it misjumps again. most of the time, anyway). 



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:02:00 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Gridlore Technologies Delivers!

Gridlore Technologies, LIC, today unveiled their "Revelation" .666 calibre
hunting rifle to the press.

"Our competition said it was impossible, and wimped out with a 'compromise
design' that was still unusable." said founder and near-legend Sir Arameth
Gridlore. "We at GT rolled up our sleeves and just built the damn thing!"

The Revelation is a conventional bolt-action rifle, firing a caseless 16.9mm
round.  Using advanced materials, the weapon is quite light for its size,
weighing in at a mere 19kg loaded (42lbs).  The rifle is 1.31m long, and
presents an oddly bulky appearance.  

Standard with the Revelation is a Mil-spec Electronic Sight, a bipod, and
mounting brackets for attachment to vehicles.  The weapon is designed to be
broken down into three groups for long distance portage.

GT deals with the problem of the rifle's large recoil by adding safety
features to prevent injury.  The safety will not release unless the weight
of the rifle is resting on the bipod or the system has been mounted on a
solid bracket.

Penetration and damage from the basic ball round were impressive, and GT
promises full support for the system by producing a variety of specialty
rounds for the end user.

Near the end of the press briefing, Sir Arameth became quite angry with a
reporter who asked if this wasn't simply a "can-opener" to be used by
anti-Imperial forces against Battlesuited Marines.

After a tense moment of silence, Sir Arameth commented that "If you want to
kill a Marine, just wait until he takes his helmet off and use a damn rock."


The REVELATION Hunting rifle (designed using 3G3)

Damage   TL    Range    Shots   Mass (loaded)  Cost
  8      12    Long      8(i)      19kg        cr 10424

If you still use signature from MT, this one is High.

Design notes.

This one took a few days, most of the work being done on CalTrain going to
and from doctor appointments.

The ball round is a 3:1 16.9mm lead shot.  It weighs 111.2g and uses 34.5g
of powder.  Muzzle velocity is 1076mps  3G3 DV for the base round was 169.

The rifle is simple.. most of the mass is in the barrel.  I chose to reduce
the weight by 25% at a cost of doubling the price..this is a rich man's toy.

The magazine is internal, and has to be hand fed.  The barrel is a bit
longer than necessary to get better range, and also to give me a little
breathing room on the Traveller damage figures.

If somebody disables the safety, and tries to shoulder fire this puppy,
break their shoulder.  I figure a *minimum STR* of 11 to even have a chance
at avoiding injury.  The weapon will automatically adjust for a new grav
field to determine what its "load on the bipod" should be.  Just let it sit
for about fifteen minutes in local gravity.

Do NOT use this weapon in 0-g.. unless you want to become an a very small,
fast bogie on somebody's sensors.

I'm currently niting away at the specialty rounds.. DS rounds are giving me
the fits.  I might upgrade this design, but other than the novelty of the
calibre, it's not that great.

Comments, Pre-orders?



+-----------------------------------------------------+
|     Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net     |
|        Professional Driver - Traveller Guru         |
|           http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/            |
|*****************************************************|
|   Never trust a peasant with a loaded fruit pie!    |
|                                 -Terry Austin       |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:53:58 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Early Vilani snack foods

David P. Summers wrote:

{snippage]
>
>>You don't think they were a "we've grown beyond such barbarous things"
>>Deanna Troi Star Trek people who would never harm a fly, do you?  I
>>think they've got a NASTY little secret in their closet. ...NASTY...
>
>No, I said that the Vilani had no more reason to be cannibals
>than Terrans and there is no _more_ reason that it would be
>a part of their past than it was of ours.


        Well, the Solomani progressed to civilization on a planet on which
they'd evolved, and whose flora and fauna provided a broad and varied diet
that was extremely well suited for feeding humans... or rather, humans were
very well suited to eating it.

        The Vilani, OTOH, were abandoned on a distant planet whose flora
and fauna they'd not evolved beside, whose biochemistry was sufficiently
different that it required extensive processing by specialists before it
became edible; not just palatable, but actually non-toxic.

        I'd think that this completely undermines comparisons with Terran
cultures; the Vilanibbalism Hypothesis is based precisely on the fictional
fact (?) that conditions were different on Vland.  Just how different, we
don't know, since AFAIK nobody has ever written a treatise on the
biochemistry of Vland's flora and fauna or the nutritional value of early
Shugilli cooking.  We do "know", however, that there were warrior cultures,
and that humans were the only comprehensively nutritious foodstuff walking
around that didn't require extensive processing before it became edible.
And Canon does not say that the Vilani were *not* cannibals.  The record
doesn't further speak to us, and so we're left with what I think is a
strong prima facie case for the Vilanibbalism hypothesis, but no way of
conclusively proving or disproving it.


**************Reality Check!*****************

        What we are discussing is only a game, or more precisely, a
fictional background for a game.  Without more evidence, we could all flog
this horse until it was a crater a mile deep (and I for one don't feel like
wasting all that time and energy).  And unless someone comes up with canon
that'll solve it one way or another, I think we're better off leaving it up
to the powers that be to decide in future products.  If Marc wants to make
it canon, I'd be pleased.  If he doesn't, big whoop.

        Furthermore, this is a roleplaying game.  Even if Mileu 0 had on
its cover a full-colour plate of a bunch of bloodspattered, drooling Vilani
wielding nasty sharp serrated steak knives on a well-done roast suckling
baby with all the fixings and a bunch of human body parts on meathooks in
the background, if you didn't buy the Vilanibbalism Hypothesis, you could
simply state that in your universe the Vilani were all exclusively
vegetarian, proceed to run your game that way, and more power to you.  In
my soon-to-begin Milieu 0 campaign, the fact that the Vilani were
cannibbals a long time ago but grew out of it is a minor part of the
background, and more power to me.  And that's all I'm going to say.  I have
better things to do with my time than argue this one to death.

        Like design a set of HEPlaR-propelled rollerblades.  Or, more
precisely, a HEPLaR fanny pack to be worn while rollerblading; I figure
that it'd be somewhat safer to have the center of thrust in the small of
one's back; that way you could accelerate real hard without your feet
flying out from under you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:28:54 +0100
From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se>
Subject: webpage adress!!

I seemed to have missed the adress so here it is:

http://www.communique.se/goran

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:28:57 +0100
From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se>
Subject: Galactic-printout-possibility!

	Hello all.
I found a way to print out the maps in galactic and wanted to tell you guys.

In paint-shop-pro you take a screen capture and then invert the picture and
converts it to grayscale. For better resolution just resample it to 600x881.

The map comes out black on white background but hey, you can't get
everything. I'm pretty pleased though.

Goran Sjoberg

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 01:41:22 -0800
From: dgpinfo@digestgroup.com (DigestGroup Info Droid)
Subject: TLWH & CORE

 
 
 
Having enjoyed his material before, I'm very much looking forward
to reading "The Long Way Home", by Andy Lilly and others.
 
I think the efforts  of CORE to revive the  Traveller game system
are highly commendable, and I look forward to collecting anything
and everything they develop.
 
Sincerely,
 
Roger Sanger
Digest Group Publications
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:44:42 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: E-Circuit

The Ecircuit an example of Maxwell's demon.  It fails to take into
account the tremendous effort and energy needed to KNOW where each atom
of the structure goes, let alone put it in place.

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:21:13 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: IG Prices

Whoopee! 
I just found the ideal supplier for my Travellin'needs: 
www.discountgames.com
About 30 % off the cover price! At last, I can own it all!
Bwah hahahah!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:46:36 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: IG Mailing List

Is anyone receiving any E-mails from IG mailing list, i subscribed first on
the 14th jan, received an auto response saying welcome your on it but nowt
since, I have sent and e to dave bullock about it, this purely to see if
anyone else is experiencing the same thing.


Colin Hollands	
Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
MIS Europe & Africa Region
Phone:	0171 413 3413
Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:49:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

In mail you write:

> You should know that (Niven notwithstanding) ramscoops aren't really
> that practical. There isn't enough interstellar hydrogen for them to
> accelerate to decent speeds in a reasonable time period.

The *real* killer is that the thrust/drag ratio is such that the drive
maxes out at a speed that isn't really worth the trouble. This is even
with the assumption that you can fuse regular hydrogen and convert all
the released energy into thrust. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 02:55:33 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller on IRC

Greetings!

Thursday night is Traveller Night on IRC.  This weeks topic is World 
Detailing.  We will be discussing how to give your planets that extra 
bit of flavor that makes them come alive!

We will be meeting on the IG IRC server:

www.imperiumgames.com
ports 6665 & 6666

8:00pm EST
7:00pm CST
6:00pm MST
5:00pm PST

As, always, if you are having any problems trying to connect to IRC, 
or to the IG server, please email me at suzd@goodnet.com.  I will do 
everything in my power to help you get connected!

Don't forget, our first Design Workshop is this Saturday at 8:00pm 
EST.  We will be doing a QSDS walk-through of a 100 ton Scout.  I'm 
really looking forward to this and will be an eager student!

See you all on #traveller! :-)

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 01:37:59 -0800
From: dgpinfo@digestgroup.com (DigestGroup Info Droid)
Subject: *****************  DGP  *****************

 
Dear TML'ers,
 
In  case you've  been wondering...
 
Digest Group Publications (yes, including most of the assumptions
that naturally  come to mind when  you hear those words)  is very
much alive!
 
DGP is doing  better than ever. We have  a great many supporters.
While many talented people have rallied under the DGP banner (!),
DGP's ties to its heritage remain *strong*.
 
DGP's prospects for the future are even stronger.
 
We are hard at work on our biggest project ever...
 
Digest Group  Publications is developing its  own sci-fi campaign
setting -- done  our way! It'll be everything  and more than what
you would expect from DGP.
 
THE FIRST RELEASE WILL BE IN 1997!
 
And yes,  DGP is still  pursuing a Traveller  license. It is  our
hope  to  recirculate  our  extensive  archives  of  Classic  and
MegaTraveller materials  as well as  produce BRAND NEW  WORKS for
T4.
 
I'll keep you posted.
 
Sincerely,
 
Roger Sanger
Digest Group Publications

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #869
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 22 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 870



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Traveller Movie?
Re: Jump drive description ?
Classic Traveller Auction #3
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
RE: Language Translations
Re: JTAS 25.
Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle
Re: Suppression Fire
Whither the dreadnaught?
Aliens?
Babel fish
Sales figs
Naming Names

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 01:42:02 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Traveller Movie?

Hey everyone,

I'm a memeber of this screenwriting list and I stumbled across this 
today.  I have no idea if this is a real Traveller movie, or if it is 
just a movie called Traveller.  But, it caught my attention because 
the name "Traveller" used two l's.

The author of this post that I copied this excerpt from is speaking 
about screenplay winners from competitions that have been made into 
movies.

You decide.

>     Of the forty-six scripts that have earned their writers
>     fellowships from
> 1986-1996, four have been produced.  Warren Taylor's IN THE DARK as
> IN THE EYES OF A STRANGER (CBS-TV), Radha Bharadwaj's CLOSET LAND,
> Jim McGlynn's TRAVELLER (completed in 1996, awaiting release), Mark
> Lowenthal's WHERE THE ELEPHANT SITS (in the final stages of
> post-production).

So, I've heard some talk that there may be a Traveller movie.  I 
haven't heard any talk that the movie is already completed as stated 
in this post.

Does anybody know if this is the Traveller near and dear to our 
hearts or just a movie named Traveller?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:42:53 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Jump drive description ?

The 21/01/1997, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>1.  The Alpha Nodes or Jump Coil
The jump fuel is used here. FFS use 5% times the jump drive volume for full
jump. The Enregy used here is from the Power and Control Units, 

>2.  The Beta Node or Jump Ring 
To close the field, Ok

>3.  The Jump Grid 
To sustain the power grid, you have to use MW! That is to say I don't
understand why Jump drives don't use MW during the week in J-space.

>4.  Power and Control Units
I've read somewhere that 35% of JD was an HPG (in FFS!). Seems to be this HPG. 
Several hours to load it? I don't have the FFS values in mind, but for a
200dt ship with jump 3 (might be usual) jump drive volume is around 120m3.
So the HPG is 40m3. Let's take 2MJ/m3 (which is oversized), the total is
80MJ which could be loaded in 2s allocating 40MW to the Jump drive HPG!
    
>5.  The Astrogation Tank
Here is the jump roll!

>6.  The Grav Pulse Projector 
Entering Jump space, for a week. But what is the power source, all seems to
be already consumed

What is the total time to enter J-space? 
     Load the power source?
     Ignite the field?
     Compute the coordinates? 
     Jump-in?

- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:18:56 GMT
From: sdollar@goodnet.com (Stuart L. Dollar)
Subject: Classic Traveller Auction #3

sdollar@goodnet.com (Stuart L. Dollar) wrote:

A friend of mine has the following Classic Traveller Items available
for Auction:

1) Traveller Boxed Set:
Books 1-3
1st Edition (1977), 5th Printing
Very Good Condition

$25:  ross@ican.net

2) Traveller Boxed Set
Books 1-3
1st Edition (1977), 9th Printing
Very Good

$25:  34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)

3) Book 4, Mercenary
1st Edition (1978), 2nd Printing
Very Good
There are 2 copies of this one, in very similar condition.

$15:  dmalnati@usa.net or dmalnati@absi.com
$5:  34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu

4) Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society #6
Very Good
Minimum Bid $4

Here are the rules for the auction:

1)  The first phase of the auction will run from today, Monday,
January 20, 1997 through 1200 AM, MST, February 3, 1997.  

At the end of the first phase of bidding, the top 2 bidders (3 in the
case of Mercenary) will be notified by e-mail to submit a final bid.
They will have until 1200 AM, MST, February 7, 1997 to submit the
final bid.  Winning bidders will be the person who bids highest.  He
will pay $1 more than the next highest bid regardless of what he bid.
For example:

Bidder A bids $17
Bidder B bids $14
Bidder A wins the item and pays $15 ($14+$1)

2)  Bid prices do not include shipping

3)  Minimum Bid increments are $1

4)  Payment will be taken by check or money order in US$ only.
Payment by check will require a 2 week holding period for the check to
clear.  Money orders will be shipped the following day.

5) Bids will be accepted by e-mail only to:
sdollar@goodnet.com

6) Updates to the auction will be posted daily to USENet and the list.

7) Please indicate which copy of the Traveller Boxed Set you are
bidding on.

Thanks,
Stu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:35:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

In mail you write:

> 1) Suppose a spaceship has reached a substantial fraction of the speed of
> light, perhaps via a HEPlaR maneuver drive supplied by an electromagnetic
> (or gravitic) "ram-scoop."  Is there any canonical reason why such a
> fast-moving spaceship couldn't enter jump space?  According to the old
> "C.T. Book 5: High Guard" design rules at least (the only ones to which I
> have access right now), the only factor governing jump drive size is
> overall hull volume - am I thus correct in thinking that relativistic mass
> increases won't cause any complications? 

Remember, if you measure your *own* mass, it never changes. Only the
"apparent" mass of things moving very, very fast *relative* to you.

So I'd say that the J-Drive has no problem as long as the apparent
density of the interstellar medium doesn't get high enough to interfere.

> 2) Suppose that fast-moving spaceship successfully enters jump space.
> When it emerges from jump space, a week later, will it retain its original
> velocity and orientation?

There are two schools of thought. One is that you emerge from J-space
with the same vectors (velocity, momentum, angular momentum, etc) as
you entered with. This requires the least "handwaving" to make things
match up to reality.

The other school has you emerging at either "rest" with respect to the
destination, or at whatever speed you choose to have when you entered
J-Space. The "at rest" optiuon isn't too bad. The other is just too
damned messy.

Note that matching the velocity of the new star system isn't all that
serious. Average difference is 50 km/sec. Extreme cases are several
hundred km/sec. 50 km/sec takes about 85 minutes at 1g to match. 300
km/sec would take about 8.5 hours. Not terribly demanding of your
average ship. 

And low thrust ships can make their "run to jump" in a direction that
will result in a more favorable entry vector at their destination.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 23:18:46 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

Robert Flamming wrote:
>>> 2) Suppose that fast-moving spaceship successfully enters jump space.
>>> When it emerges from jump space, a week later, will it retain its original
>>> velocity and orientation?
>> 
>> Yes. The problem has always been, of course, velocity and orientation
>> relative to what? 
>
>An interesting question, but it does not affect relativistic jumps. If a
>velocity is constant in one inertial reference frame, then it is
>constant in ALL inertial reference frames. So it arrives with the same
>velocity vector (whatever that vector may be, depending on reference
>frame) regardless of which reference you chose (as long as you don't
>change your reference frame during the jump, or accelerate it).
>
>Changing your reference frame from one gravity well to another won't
>work unless they have zero velocity relative to one another. Generally,
>you have to chose which gravity well will be your reference and stick to
>it throughout the jump. Which one you chose is not important, just that
>it be used consistantly. Practically all physics equations assume that
>you will not be arbitrarily changing your reference frames while working
>on a signle problem.

You make some good points, but we don't know what the relative velocities 
of two star systems are. Sure, we could make it up, but then there's the 
work of converting from one to another.

Since we're changing universes, going from normal-space to jump-space, I 
don't feel the need to stick to Isaac Newton's or Descartes', or even 
Einstein's frame of reference. For simplicity's sake, in my game 
jumpspace automatically transforms your reference frame to be based upon 
the nearest gravity well. This is jumpspace. Momentum is irrelevant. 
Physics is irrelevant. Resistance is futile.

What exactly are the ramifications of ignoring the law of conservation of 
momentum in this case? What kind of hairy paradoxes does it invoke? Am I 
truly out to lunch here?

<Glenn applies a liberal dose of Flame-Garde (tm)>

- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 23:18:35 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

J. Raynor wrote:
>I would say that the "grid" on a starship's hull has got to be pretty
>tough, with a great deal of built-in redundancy of its own.  Military
>vessels can, after all, successfully enter jump space even after taking
>damage in battle.  I doubt that there are very many micrometeorites in

Yes, according to DGP's SOM:

There is a high risk the jump field will not close if more than 10% of 
the ship's hull net is missing in any one location. How could this happen?
1. From any critical surface hit in starship combat.
2. Compute percent of hull net damage = (number of surface hits x 100) / 
hull disp
   If this number is greater than 10, then high risk.

High risk means more chance of misjump, and possible ship destruction.

>intergalactic space, and some kind of gravitic "deflector shield" (a
>specialized variant of the "repulsor bays" from the "High Guard" design
>rules, perhaps) would reduce the amount of hull erosion, particularly if
>combined with an "active" laser-based anti-meteorite system.  I suppose,
>however, that portions of the grid could "burn out" after being energized
>*thousands* of times.  Could an "extra-dense grid" be installed, perhaps
>constructed with considerably thicker filaments and narrower spacing?

I've always assumed that energizing the grid is *highly* stressful. 
Thousands of times is *very* optimistic. Since the thing requires annual 
maintenance, and one can only jump (ie. charge the grid) 52 times a year 
maximum, my impression is that any more than a hundred jumps without 
maintenance and you're really cruisin' for a bruisin'

Another thing I've assumed is the "thickness" and spacing of the grid is 
pretty much fixed, so you get a consistant and fixed (by whatever 
pseudo-jump-laws govern it) particle density. The geometry of the grid 
(squares, hexagons, swirls) doesn't matter, but spacing and density do.
 
>Alternatively, some variation of the staging principle could be used. The
>starship would have a layered, onion-like "hull," and only the outermost
>"layer" would be energized during any one jump.  As soon as that "layer" 
>begins to show signs of "burning out," it could be cast off, exposing a
>fresh grid. 

The only argument I have against that is that is sounds *increadibly* 
wasteful and inefficient. Do you start with a 800 ton vessel, then 
progressively "evaporate" it down to 100 tons?

You really got your heart set on getting to another galaxy, eh?

- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 23:18:49 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

Bruce E J Lewis scribbled
>At 16:04 20/01/97 -0600, Paul Walker wrote:
>>The way I play Jumpspace is that the drive creates a bubble around the ship
>>and rips a hole for the ship to travel to Jump Space through.  Based on
>>this, I think Jump Drives are based on volume because the issue is how big
>>the bubble and hole need to be, not at all on the mass of the ship.
>
>	Whatever, the ship rips a hole in space, enters it, and sews it back up
>again afterwards, right? So what happens if the ship is destroyed before it
>can close the hole up? Or does it close automatically? I'm sure I read
>somewhere that it's the ship's j-drive that closes it up.

That's why I've never liked this interpretation. The problems you bring 
up start making things really messy. Fooling with the space-time 
continuum is, well, dicey. What if the ship blew up while making the 
hole? Can things be sucked through the "hole" because they happen to be 
in the way?

DGP's description of the Lanthanum Grid solved these problems for me. A 
light went on in my head when I read the Starship Operators Manual. 
There's no "hole". The grid creates a field around the ship which allows 
matter within the field to "blink out of existence" in this universe and 
enter jumpspace.

The only hole left is the vacuum in space where the ship was, which 
rapidly implodes btw. The ship doesn't "travel through" some hole it 
projects in front of it, like those nifty effects in Babylon 5.

Since the transition is instantaneous, if the ship blows up the only 
question is "did it blow up in this universe or in jumpspace?" If the 
answer is this universe, there's a neat cloud of debris orbiting the 
system it was jumping out of. If the answer is jumpspace, then a 
bajillion particles misjump across several dozen parsecs of space... :-)

>	If the ship is destroyed, will the hole remain open? And for how long?
>Will it get smaller or bigger? Could another ship detect energies emanating
>from it, thus enabling its sensors to pin the hole down so it can
>investigate? If the ship blew up in j-space before the hole was sealed, how
>would the physics of j-space affect the explosion? (Difficult I know as
>there is hardly any info on this.) Could the explosion be so powerful as to
>destroy other ships in the vicinity, or the whole star system even? Could

See, these are the kinds of questions that can really *ruin* a 
thoughtfully crafted universe. Destroy an entire star system with a 
kamikazi and a jump drive!?!? That's just nuts.

>any beings who might live in j-space find their way into our universe
>through this hole whereas they never had the ability to cross that
>threshold before? Assuming that if they do exist, although they've never
>before been seen during a normal j-space trip, they could be attracted by
>the explosion.

Beings in jumpspace?! That's way too soft for me. :-) I like my Traveller 
Sci-fi a bit harder, and more crunchy.

- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:01:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

In mail, whopper@magibox.net writes:

> I have used this interpretation also.  It makes sense to me to use 
> the local gravity wells as the references for a jump rather than some 
> "galactic north".  It also explains rather neatly why the standard 
> procedure in CT was for ships to decelerate  before jumping.  If you 
> did not, you would come out of jumpspace headed outsystem.

Excuse me? *Where* in CT does it say this?

> If you assume a "galactic north" as the reference, it becomes hard to 
> explain why _everybody_, especially merchants, don't jump hot as a 
> matter of course.  After all, time _is_ money.

Stars are moving *relative* to each other. Average velocity diff is
about 50 km/sec. So if you jump with a 50 km/s velocity "north", and
the destination star is moving 50 km/s north, you come in at rest
(relative to the star, you'll need about 20-30 km/s to match the
orbital velocity of the planet).  If the star was moving south, you've
got to kill 100 km/s, then match orbits.

Now add in the uncertainty in *where* you come out. If you had a good
vector for coming out ahead of the planet, but your jump has you
exiting *behind* it, you've got to make a big velocity change.

Best bet would to be to aim for a point "above", "below", inward, or
outward from the planet, and make your run to jump so as to help get
the right velocity on exit. 

Your velocity when you enter jump depends *entirely* on what you
measure it relative to. So it can't matter. After all, you may be
moving at several thousand km/s relative to the galactic core, or a
large fraction of c relative to some galaxies. 

> There are also some interesting military implications. In the 
> gravity-well-reference model, a ship coming out of jump headed 
> insystem at a high velocity really had to work at it - by starting 
> outsystem in its system of origin and accelerating inward before jumping.  
> This would, again IMHO, be considered by the system defenders as an 
> inherently hostile act.  They would shoot first and ask questions later.  
> In the "galactic north" reference model, system defenders would be much 
> less likely to attack an incoming hi-vee ship without working hard to 
> identify it.

Just remember that it is *very* hard to get that hi-vee *pointed* at
the destination. You can't control your jump exit point that well.

I like the "galactic north" model because it explains *how* pirates can
be lurking. Fopr best fuel efficiency, folks jumping to a given star
would all head out for the same point on the 100 diameter sphere.
That's because accelerating out to *that* point would give them a
"good" vector for the destination, and save some extra manuevering upon
arrival. So that makes it a good place for a pirate to hang out. 

I'd have to look up the rules on how uncertain jump exits are to see if
a similar trick can be pulled on incoming ships.

BTW, note that the preferred jump "point" moves as the planet moves in
its orbit around the star. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 18:04 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: RE: Language Translations

In-Reply-To: <199701181843.MAA13248@cube.ice.net>

<< A group of Hiver Scientists found a copy of the ancient Terran dance 
called the Macarena.

after several translation attempts they have concluded that its a 
primitive summoning ritual, ussed to call upon something called 
Cthulhu. >>

Heh heh heh...:-)

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 18:05 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: JTAS 25.

In-Reply-To: <32E2A292.800@flash.net>

<< > > The Silver Moon Incident by Lew Wright. - Not a bad adventure, 
but it has
> > quite a few flaws. The adventure implies that there is an FTL radio
> > system in Traveller.
> 
> Plus cloaking devices and tractor beams. This isn't Traveller.

No, it's not. However, it *is* Megatraveller and TNE. Both had tractor
beams and repulsors and both had rules for using black globes as a form
of cloaking device. >>

Aren't tractors TL16+? And if the author meant black globe, why say 
cloak?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:43:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle

On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Peter  H. Brenton wrote:

> 
> 
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Garry Ward wrote:
> 
> > At 05:13 AM 1/18/97 +0000, you wrote:
> > >
> > Length? 100 cm = 1 meter; 1.558 meters long? 5 feet? Wouldn't this require
> > some kind of a minimum strength or dexterity to use, unless it is always
> 
> 5 feet, while long, is not unbelievable.  Especially if the weapon is to
> be used as a medium to long distance (150 to 1000 meters) shooting.
> Remember, the longer the barrel, the more time the round has to stabilize
> (and accelerate, of course).
> 
> Civil war rifles and muskets were probably not much shorter.
> 

I meant to say that they were not much *longer*.  I seem to remember a 6
foot musket (plus 2' bayonet!)

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:41:09 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Suppression Fire

Supressive fire is what fire combat is all about. Shooting at your enemy to
make him duck or run for cover and therefore hindering him in accomplishing
his goal.

Make PCs and NPCs alike roll morale each time they are fired at with
weapons that can penetrate their armour. If they fail their roll the PCs
will go prone, run for cover as appropriate and the PCs should have an
initiative penalty that will make them do the same. These rules can be
extended to melee combat as well. The reason so few get get killed in
combat is that they will rather flee than stand and fight if the enemy
seems to have an advantage.

My system has used rules like this for the past 6 yeras and when we started
using them we noticed a dramatic reduction in the number of NPCs and PCs
that got killed.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you call someone elses utterances ramblings, make shure your own sound
lucid.
You (Douglas E. Berry ) clearly didn't know what Paul was talking about.

>At 12:02 PM 1/20/97 +0000, Paul wrote:
>
><Ramblings about Supressive fire snipped>
>
>T4 has the rules on page 56.  My prefered system is to have all the PCs
>declare who many rounds are going into the beaten zone, and then when
>someone enters that zone, throw dg equal to half the rounds expended.  Every
>"1" is a hit.  Tends to shread the first guy, and simulates the natural
>tendancy to shift and aim at the first target you see.


/Backman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:15:21 -0800
From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
Subject: Whither the dreadnaught?

Folks, one thing I've discovered very rapidly after getting my hands on
an FF&S weapons design spreadsheet was that with the advent of FF&S, the
entire Traveller universe -- design-wise -- shrank by an order of
magnitude. Most of this can be traced to the trashing of the
time-honored but annoying system of 'hard points' -- now, if it fits,
you can put it in there, and screw the structural integrity. But the
greatest discrepancy I noticed is in the size of the ship it takes to
hold a spinal mount weapon.

Case in point: look at a MegaTrav-era TL12 E-class spinal mount PAW, the
smallest possible. Along with a power plant of sufficient volume to feed
it, it displaces a total volume of 120,000m3, or more than 8,000 tons!
Even if one were to make a battle rider of which about half was the gun
itself, you're still looking at about a 20,000-ton ship. In FF&S, I can
build an NPAW that does basically equivelant damage that will fit quite
handily in a 4,000-tonner. 

Whoah, said I, feeling the sands of gaming reality shift under me.

So I tried to build a 1,000,000 ton monster that mounted a gargantuan
NPAW, but I could not make a gun that would do more than 22-22-22-22
realistically fit into it. A meson gun did even less damage. The costs
of the armor and screens to defend against such weapons is far less than
the weapons themselves. Little guns on little ships do as much damage as
really big ones, until you get completely into the realm of the bizarre.

So where does that leave the dreadnaught? 

I'm not picking at the rules; just wondering why, in the 'real' world,
anybody would really build a military vessel bigger than, say, 30,000
tons. For that, you can have a decent-sized spinal mount, decent
manuver, decent armor, decent fighter compliment -- decent everything.
30,000 displacement tons is only a little bigger than the USS Nimitz,
but not quite enough to qualify as stargoing-dreadnaught size, at least
not in my imagination. I picture these things as massing at least
100,000 tons and perhaps sevral times that, each requiring the resources
of several systems to assemble & maintain. Empire hath its privelages,
and one of them is an economy of scale.

But as far as undiluted military applications go, a purebred warship
seems to top out around 30,000 tons. After that, you're just sort of
adding extra stuff that could just as easily go on a second ship. And
that kind of sucks, because massive dreadnaughts whaling the tar out of
each other is near and dear to the hearts of us all; and the biggest
crowbar in the fleet has always been the dreadnaught with some kind of
hellacious spinal-mount gun that was usually the rationale for building
a ship around it in the first place. Not any more, apparently.

The only rationale I can think of for the dreadnaught is station-keeping
capability; simply put, bigger ships can carry more stuff, and can stay
out there longer. A big enough ship can carry enough supplies to keep
itself out there for a year or more, perform disaster relief, show the
flag, carry out extended patrols, carry a small army in its belly for
suppressing rebellious worlds, etc. -- and still mount a healthy
offensive punch. I call this the 'system-control ship' concept; sort of
a fleet-in-one. It's the difference between the Starship Enterprise and
a U-boat -- one handles all sorts of useful errands, plus fleet combats.
The other just sort of snoops around and blows things up. 

Can anyone else think of a good reason to justify the dreadnaught? I
haven't studied whether or not the bloody things are actually more
economical to build -- do you save significant amounts of money building
a few big ships rather than scads and scuds of little ones? That could
be the battlewagon's salvation right there... but if not, we're worse
off than before... geez.

So compare your little ships against the big gun-toting Goliaths you've
built (of the same TL), tell me costwise where it's at, and otherwise
give me your informed commentary. Together, we can save the dreadnaught!
at least in my campaign....

- -- Jay Stranahan

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 97 14:11:33 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Aliens?

>> Side note:  A few years ago, I had a chance to meet 
Koko, the famous signing  gorrila.  This.. entity renamed 
me (Hair Face), offered to play (300lbs of  gorilla plays 
hard!), and talked to me about cats (we both like them). <<

Wow. What a privilege! A peep through a crack in the door 
between Humaniti and the Other. I envy you that.

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| He who laughs last probably doesn`t understand the joke.     |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 97 14:11:26 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Babel fish

>> Brian A. Howard  - --   If it sounds like a Babel Fish 
run...   for a Vogon constructor fleet  can not be far 
behind!   <<

But a Babel Fish sounds like _you_ - that's the point!

>> The top 10, according to arcane:

1. Call of Cthulhu
2. AD&D
3. Traveller
4. Warhammer Fantasy PRG
5. RuneQuest
6. Vampire: The Masquerade
7. Paranoia
8. Shadowrun
9. Star Wars, and...
10. Cyberpunk <<

Hmn. CoC is OOP as I recall, Traveller has been until 
recently. RQ has had mere scrap released for it in five or 
six years. Interesting. CoC must be the _least_ modified 
game rules system in the entire pile. 

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| He that lieth down with dogs, shall rise up with fleas.      |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 97 14:11:28 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Sales figs

>> My guess would be that the average age was lowered 
somewhat after the  release of T4, given that 30,000 copies 
of it sold. <<

This is interesting! It's the first figure I've heard of 
how many sold. Out of interest, anyone know how many CT, MT 
& TNE were sold?

Um, by "sold" they don't mean "shipped to distributors" or 
"distributed to stores" do they?

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to        |
| repeat it                                                    |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 97 14:11:37 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Naming Names

>> But seriously, there are indeed lots of folks on this 
list (and on   GDW-Beta) that do their share to ensure the 
survival of their favorite   RPG.  [...]  Well, I better 
stop naming   names, because I could keep going all day.  :)   <<

You didn't mention me, but you didn't know I'm running two 
Traveller games on CompuServe's RPGAMES forum, of course. 
See? I may be a negative bastard at times but I put my time 
and effort (and pennies!) where it counts! The recruitment 
rate was pretty fast, too; lots of keen people. And they 
all seem to have T4. There is hope!

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| Too much of anything is bad, but too much of good whiskey    |
| is barely enough.                                            |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #870
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 871



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Happy with IG?
Auld Farts?
Good News for Traveller!
Re: Whither the dreadnaught? 
Re: aargh, this is poor
3G3/2300
Re: aargh, this is poor
Does anyone see this?
Re: Naming Names
Re: Traveller Movie?
Early Vilani snack foods/Cannibalism
FW: Planet X site to move this weekend.
Re: VDS TL-12 Fusion+ contragrav pogo stick.
Re: Vilani and Long Pig
Re: pogo sticks...
Re: #Traveller on IRC
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #870
DN's

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 97 14:11:19 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Happy with IG?

I would like to add a qualification to the probable storm 
of outrage I may have created. I read my digests in 
backlog, by and large. I just came back from holiday, me 
and my lappie, with a pile of answers prepared from digests 
about a week old. So although it seems that I'm still 
slagging Starships while everyone else is saying "Enuff 
Already" I'm just slow. I would like to endorse the opinion 
that the trend is up and I'm not gonna drop out yet. 

BTW, having read JTAS, Don Perrin should carry right on 
writing short stories. If you want a definition of 
Travelleresque, the story Beowulf really smacked that one 
on the head for me.


>> > >> Melee weapons are useless in a  modern war    

Wrong.  I had this discussion with one of my players a 
while back.    He's an ex-Marine (the player, not the 
character), and he made a good   point.    The bayonnet has 
been standard military issue for over 200 years.    There's 
no reason to believe that will change.    I think he made 
his point.   <<

Look at the Falklands. Damn, I can't remember the name of 
the hill, but the Hairy Scots took it at bayonet point if I 
recall correctly. God! Must have been terrifying for the 
poor Argentines!

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| An honest politician: One who stays bought.                  |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 97 14:11:23 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Auld Farts?

>> In response to Joe Walsh's insight as to the necessity 
of new gamers, do  we have anyone under 25 years old on the 
list?  What is the average age  of the list.  i.e. Are we 
dinosaurs?   <<

Sorry, I'm 33, though I felt like 93 this morning. Growl. 
<Jurrasic Park theme played here>

Urm. Wasn't it _Felgercarb_?

>> One perk that I would really applaud is to have all of 
the systems   mutually interactive so that a vehicle 
designed in the system given   in CSC will be compatible 
and give the same type of stats as a   vehicle designed in 
the new T4 FF&S. <<

Ah, yes, I remember that sort of approach. It was called 
_Book 2_ and _High Guard_. Simple system for those who just 
want to patch something small together, and a detailed 
gearhead system for the techies. Easily intercompatible. Sigh. 

>> Well, I believe I'm one of the junior members of this 
list, at 17.  However,  my experience in RPGs does NOT come 
from CCGs (products of the devil I  believe <g>), but from 
my older brother, who introduced me to D&D at age 8. <<

Give this young man a medal! Then send him out as a 
missionary to save all the poor sad card gamers!

>> I was surprised that a response form didn't accompany 
JTAS #25, so
here's mine! It's modelled after the original form. <<

What a brilliant idea! I think we should all (those that's 
managed to get JTAS, don't hit me if you haven't!) do one. 
I've added two categories though.

=====
I've rated each article and Issue 25 as a whole. 1 
indicates great
dissatifaction, 5 indicates great satisfaction, 2, 3, and 4 are
shades in between.

Vestiges                                2.0
Warden of the Everlasting Flame         4.5
Bits of Biotechnology                   2.0
Aliens Archive: The Asym                1.5    (bit blatant...)
The Silver Moon Incident                n/a    (haven't 
read it yet!)
Free Trader Beowulf                     4.5
One Hundred Cargoes                     4.0
JTAS Writer's and Artist's Guidelines   3.0
Exterior Art                                     3.0
Interior Art                                      4.5   
(the landscapes!)

Issue 25 as a Whole                     4.0
=====

Yeah I know they don't average. Sue me. :)

Basically, JTAS is about the best thing IG have produced so 
far. More!

[Ken Whitman]  >> I wish IG and Cortney great sucess for 
the future.  Remember Traveller is  my favorit game!  
However, before anyone go passing out kudoos, you should  
wait until after First Survey and Milieu 0 are are 
released.    (Pull knife out of chest) Ouch.  That feels 
much better.-)   <<

This sounds like a bitter man to me. Did he jump or was he 
pushed?


[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| If you're going to do something wrong, at least enjoy it.    |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:25:07 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Good News for Traveller!

Hi, I sent the message below last night.  Since I haven't seen it in my 
mailbox yet, I contacted Rob Miracle, who told me that there have been 
some problems with the MPGN server, and the message may have 
been...er...misplaced. <G>  So, here it is again.  Apologies if this 
means it appears in your mailbox twice.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Hi folks,

Courtney called me tonight, and we discussed some stuff that might be of 
interest to you:

1)  All future T4 products will be reviewed by MWM at each stage of the 
process (on a chapter-by-chapter basis).  In the past, Marc wasn't passed 
a copy of the products in time to do a full review, when he was given 
them at all (as I understand it).  Now, Marc will be able to provide the 
benefit of his incredible imagination and knowledge as the products are 
created.  

2)  IG has some great stuff planned for Traveller this year.  

    a)  JTAS will go to slick stock with color interiors, and will 
generally look a lot more like a high-quality, mainstream magazine.  
There will be a monthly comic strip, an editorial, a letters page, and so 
on. 

    b)  Citizens of the Imperium will be beefed up with an ID card, online 
"inside info," product discounts, and so on and so forth.  Details still 
being worked out.

    c)  He's looking into an all-Traveller convention being held at some 
point.

    d)  Art for all future products will be produced specifically for 
those products; no more "generic" art!!  

    e)  The web site will continue to be expanded.  More links.  Also, a 
Sector-type map will be put in, with each of the fan sites appearing as a 
solar system on it which can be clicked on to go to that site.  Expanded 
support for the IRC on the website.  And so on.

    f)  Professional editing and graphic design will be used for all 
future products!

    G)  This year's Gen-Con will see Traveller with a far, far bigger 
presence.

In short, Courtney believes in Traveller, and he's devoting a lot of his 
attention to it.  With Tim Brown doing the day-to-day product 
management, and Marc Miller being involved at every step of the product 
design process, 1997 will truly be the year of Traveller.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:39:21 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Whither the dreadnaught? 

One thing not to neglect is that a single spinal mount is, now,
a bloody awful mistake.  Mount two.  Mount ten.  Mount fifty and
up their power supplies so they all have ROF 800.  One of them ought
to penetrate *something*, at least against most targets.  I haven't
tried really-huge on really-huge battles, but I never much liked
the traditional 100s of kton dreadnaught concept either.  They always
seemed to lose out in price/combat power to well done rider concepts
(even with low-jump-# for flexibility riders).

- -george

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:39:57 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: aargh, this is poor

On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Harry McGowan wrote:

> Can you believe it!!! They changed the spelling of vacc. suit to vac suit in 
> T4...............Stunned silence.........

Yup, I noticed that right away.  The good news is, IG is bringing on 
_professional_ editors, typesetters, layout specialists, and graphic 
designers.  So, future products will be far, far better in these areas.  
In the design area, Marc will be helping to design each and every book, 
providing the benefit of his knowledge, experience, and imagination.

On a related note, Marc Miller finally got to see the proofs for Milieu 0 
and First Survey.  He spotted several typographical errors and one 
glaring error (the sector in Milieu 0 is completely different from the 
representation of the same sector in First Survey).  [As an aside, the 
CORE group was told to use one set of sector data for the M0 book, and 
that the First Survey data would be changed to reflect that; 
unfortunately, that did not happen after the manuscript was turned over 
to the folks at AP&D.]  The books were about to be bound (again, MWM 
wasn't included in the process until recently; his inclusion now is one 
of the positive changes IG is making), so the process has been stopped.  
The erroneous pages will be re-designed, re-typeset, and re-printed, 
then the books will be bound.

The books will begin shipping the first week of February.  

Imperium Games and Marc Miller DO care about the quality of their Traveller
products, and they're doing everything within their power to affect the 
changes necessary to bring about top-quality Traveller supplements, 
adventures, and supporting materials.  You've seen huge changes in the 
quality from T4 and Starships to Aliens and CSC.  You'll see another 
positive change with the release of M0 and First Survey.  Products after 
that will have the full benefit of the new processes and people that are 
now being brought on board.  In short, things are changing for the 
better, and they will continue to do so.  

Mark my words; 1997 will be the year of Traveller! :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:08:11 +0100 (MET)
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Subject: 3G3/2300

  Does anyone know if there ever was a Guns! Guns! Guns! to 2300
conversion?

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:31:45 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: aargh, this is poor

Joseph E. Walsh said:
> Mark my words; 1997 will be the year of Traveller! :)

Bad pun... really bad.

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:18:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@*teleport.com>
Subject: Does anyone see this?

Heyo!

It's been two days since I've seen a TML message or digest, just checking
to see ifeither 1) Virus has struck the list and brought it down or 2) Mutated
Virus has struck and brought me down!  :(

E-mail me if it's just me!

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:32:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Naming Names

On 22 Jan 1997, Hugh Foster wrote:

> You didn't mention me, but you didn't know I'm running two 
> Traveller games on CompuServe's RPGAMES forum, of course. 
> See? I may be a negative bastard at times but I put my time 
> and effort (and pennies!) where it counts! The recruitment 
> rate was pretty fast, too; lots of keen people. And they 
> all seem to have T4. There is hope!

Yes, indeed, there is! :)  I'm happy to hear you're having success with 
the games you're running on CIS.  I've heard reports from others who have 
had success at conventions, and I've heard from folks who have seen their 
FLGS sell out of T4 time and time gain.  The distributors are re-ordering 
the main book at a good clip and have been all along; they're starting to 
re-order CSC and Aliens at a good rate, too, now that their initial 
orders have sold through.  

OTOH, there are still spots where T4 doesn't sell well at all.  We'll 
just have to fix that by running some demos at those game stores. ;)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:39:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Movie?

On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> I'm a memeber of this screenwriting list and I stumbled across this 
> today.  I have no idea if this is a real Traveller movie, or if it is 
> just a movie called Traveller.  But, it caught my attention because 
> the name "Traveller" used two l's.

Nah, it's not our Traveller.  Someone just used the British spelling of 
the word in the title of that movie.  


> >     Of the forty-six scripts that have earned their writers
> >     fellowships from
> > 1986-1996, four have been produced.  Warren Taylor's IN THE DARK as
> > IN THE EYES OF A STRANGER (CBS-TV), Radha Bharadwaj's CLOSET LAND,
> > Jim McGlynn's TRAVELLER (completed in 1996, awaiting release), Mark
> > Lowenthal's WHERE THE ELEPHANT SITS (in the final stages of
> > post-production).
> 
> So, I've heard some talk that there may be a Traveller movie.  I 
> haven't heard any talk that the movie is already completed as stated 
> in this post.
> 
> Does anybody know if this is the Traveller near and dear to our 
> hearts or just a movie named Traveller?

It's just a movie named Traveller; only Sweet Pea Entertainment has the 
rights to making a movie based on our favorite RPG, and that isn't it. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:07:33 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Early Vilani snack foods/Cannibalism

To inject a further note of reality into this long-term discussion.

Has anyone who has seriously suggested this considered the food chain
implications? I mean, you all know the classic pyramidal structure with
plants at the bottom and man at the top (I presume) -- and the fact that it
takes a *lot* of plants to feed a herbivore to produce meat, which is more
efficient a food for men than plant matter and so on.

Well, OK, then consider this. Cannibalism in the form everyone seems to be
taking for granted misses the major problem. What do the "munchies" eat
*before* they become munchies? In other words, its mathematically
impossible to have a situation where cannibalism plays a significant role
in the Vilani diet *unless* there is a lot of *other* ("non-Vilani") food
to feed the "victims" in the first place.

In other words, its a chicken and egg argument. If you have to rely on
cannibalism for a significant portion of your food supply, then what do the
victims (who must also be cannibals) live on?

In other words, cannibalism as anything more than an interesting cultural
anomaly -- much the way it is on Terra -- is impossible.

Look at it another way, food supply is *the* limiting factor on population
size. Ergo, if there is not enough food to go around, then population will
be limited to whatever the food supply will support -- and there will be no
excess humans for "dinner".

And another factor. Did you know that eating humans (or other animals) that
have died of starvation is a *bad thing*? You get what is called *protein
poisoning* ... and it can kill you! Evidently all that is left in such a
case is too much protein. So, even in famine situations, unless you
slaughter people for food *before* the famine actually bites, the use of
"long pig" is not on.

A nice theory overall, but (almost) completely insupportable on any form of
logical basis!

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:02:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: FW: Planet X site to move this weekend.

I didn't see this on any digests lately, so I am resending it.
 ----------
From: Bill Prankard
To: Traveller
Subject: Planet X site to move this weekend.
Date: Tuesday, January 21, 1997 9:45AM

The following is a News Release from DSS-X "Planet X"

*FLASH**For Immediate Release**FLASH**
Dateline 021-0001 Re: Crisis at Planet X

Transcriped from the Commanders speach...

"Ladies and Gentlemen, it is with heavy hart that I anounce that Planet X 
has come under foul times.  Our new station, and our company, has been hit 
by an asailant as you know,  we believed that the computers and comm network 
were reinstalled, but apparently the agent had impregnated the system with a 
"time-bomb" virus program.  As a result, we are cut off once again from the 
outside, only our intrepid crew of Scout/Couriers will be able to get the 
e-mail through to our brethren at Sylea.  In the meantime the core will be 
dumped into space and destroyed. "

"But there is good news, we will be aquiring a completely new system, where 
all communications and computer control will be connected directly to me.  I 
will have total control over this new system, and because it is wired into 
me, I will be able to sense any attempts at intrusion if and when they 
occur, and be able to act accordingly.  If the hackers and slicers want a 
fight, lets see how they can handle our new cyber-link!"

Cheers can be heard within the vast auditorium within Deep Space Station X. 
 Everything from "Give 'em hell commander! to chants of "X" "X" "X".

This concludes this Press Release from X-TEK of DSS-X  "Planet X"

And now a reality check....

The people who so graciously allowed me to use their unused site area 
"Opp-Mag" aka my roomate's company, have apparently yanked the plug without 
so much as a warning to me.  It seems that when my roomate bailed out of 
that company to persue a new job offer, they thought that they no longer 
neede the account.  The account is currently on hold, meaning that I have no 
access to the site, nor can i get an IP connection at home for IRC.  The 
site is still there, but it might be wiped soon by the ISP administration.

But the good news is that by friday(payday) I will be creating my own 
account on Magicnet(this is the ISP opp-mag was on, there the good guys, and 
opp-mag is the badie!)  everything will be transfered there and i will have 
complete control over all(Muhhuhahahahaha!)

Mind you I knew this would happen eventualy. So I'm not upset at this, much.

So this Saturday change your bookmarks for Planet X to
http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx
and the new email should be (by then) cmdrx@magicnet.net

Sory for any inconvienece this may have caused, but   "..Its not my fault! 
 They told me they fixed it!"

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:39:34 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: VDS TL-12 Fusion+ contragrav pogo stick.

Andrew M J Boulton wrote:

>Subject: Re: VDS TL-12 Fusion+ contragrav pogo stick.
>
>In-Reply-To: <v01510100af06b68f523a@[198.168.183.214]>
>
>You are a very sick individual. Keep it up!

        Oh, I am...  I just did something last night that is so totally
cheesy that I can hardly wait to have sprung it on my players so I can post
it here without ruining the surprise :).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:39:37 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

David P. Summers wrote:

>
>[Combining replies to the same author on the same subject....]
>Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:27:26 -0800, Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>;
>
>[Stuff about how a species can't exist on cannibalism....]
>>Actually, I think you are mostly right.
>
>"Mostly"????  :-)
>
>[Stuff about better nutrition from cannibalism in a situation
>where food supplies were barely adequate....]
>>The big guys would
>>get the women, reproduce preferentially and that would be that until the
>>meat eaters dominated..
>
>Three problems.  One is that barely adequate food supplies are
>not rare on the Earth either.  So if this reasoning were
>correct we should be equally cannibalistic.


        I think that there's a differenceargely incompatible
biochemistries, remember...  This, IMHO, throws the Terran comparison off.
You could have any number of situations: foods where the caloric profit
after processing was so minimal that most energy was simply spent on
processing with little energy left over for anything else (and recall that
experimentation could often be fatal), food where certain key nutrients
were lacking, leading to malnutrition, foods that were plenty nutritious,
but led to a slow buildup of toxins in major organs, etc, etc.

>
>Also, the cannibals can't dominate and keep up cannibalism.
>If the fittest are surviving better they become more and
>more and more numerous compared to the non-canibals.
>Then they either have to give it up or turn on each other.


        Or start farming people, or applying the death sentence to
increasingly minor crimes or types of deviance, or reserve the long pig
supply to the upper classes, etc.  Lest you plead inhumanity, I can point
to numerous 20th-century instances of group behaviour that were worse, and
completely wasteful of good protein to boot...


>
>Finally, the fact is the _anticannibalism_ is locked in genetically
>and is why humans don't, in fact, resort to such things unless
>faced with imminent death (and usually, exceptions not withstanding,
>not even then).  Even if we ignore the previous, the fact that
>cannibalism isn't good for social species would assert itself
>after the population adjusted itself to meet the food supply
>(and it will, cannibalism or no).


        Dude, have you got a reference for anticannibalism being "locked in
genetically"?  I did my BA in anthropology.  WHile that was four years
back, or so, I don't recall coming across any such thing.  Current wisdom
is that a lot of humanity's evolutionary success to date is simply that we
*don't* have much behaviour "locking in genetically"; we constantly
innovate, culturally speaking, and can adapt to almost any set of
circumstances.  And some of the innovations we've come up with have made
eating deviants, criminals, and POWs as a dietary supplement look like a
Boy Scout badge project.

        And even if we have such a thing as a genetic predisposition to
avoid cannibalism, it does seem to be programmed to break down when needed
to survive, doesn't it..?

        I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing in support of your
alleged "fact" that cannibalism isn't good for social species 100% of the
time is... but try and apply your arguments against slavery, or ethnic
genocide.  If they sound equally convincing, there's probably something
wrong with them, since history is rife with instances of both.


>
>>The lack of infectious diseases might also be VERY significant, as this
>>may  be where our social taboo against nibbling on each other may have
>>come from.
>
>While the _relative_ lack of diseases (diseases won't be non-existant,
>just less common) lessens _one_ of the problems the others
>still remain.  Also, the main driving force is that the
>dynamic of cannibalism make it hard to use for species
>survival and nearly impossible for social species.

        It didn't stop the Aztecs... and they were one of the more
successful civilizations around until the Spanish showed up.  If you
recall, they were sacrificing people by the tens of thousands to their
gods.  While they weren't eating their sacrificial victims _wholesale_, it
isn't much of a stretch...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:21:32 -0800 (PST)
From: "Kelly St.clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: pogo sticks...

>        Rumour has it those fun-loving guys at FSG&T are working on
>HEPlaR-powered inline rollerskates.  Stay tuned.

Shouldn't that be "guys at ACME Labs" and "Stay tooned.", respectively?


Roderick, you are a sick, sick man.  I like that in a gearhead.


- ----------------
Kelly St.Clair
kellys@efn.org

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 01:04:07 -0000
From: "Del Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: #Traveller on IRC

Hello all,
I have seen with interest the postings from Suz Dollar et.
al. about discussions on #Traveller. I was just wondering
if it would be possible for transcriptions of these to be
posted to this list (or separately to save TML b/w).

You see, I don't know what the situation is in the US, but
here in the UK we only get cheap calls at weekends (I do
hear that all your local calls are free!)
As you can understand this could prove costly for us Brits
( plus it also works out at about 1am GMT - work on Fridays
could be a nightmare.)  

Apologies in advance if this is not possible, or if I sound
like a complete Scrooge, but you see, what I'm spending on
my 'phone bill is not going towards getting my T4 stuff,
and we ALL want to support IG, don't we???

Keep up the good work,

TTFN

Del Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:42:10 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <fuz@deltanet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #870

>Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:15:21 -0800
>From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
>Subject: Whither the dreadnaught?
>
...
>30,000 displacement tons is only a little bigger than the USS Nimitz,
>but not quite enough to qualify as stargoing-dreadnaught size, at least
>not in my imagination. I picture these things as massing at least
>100,000 tons and perhaps sevral times that, each requiring the resources
>of several systems to assemble & maintain. Empire hath its privelages,
>and one of them is an economy of scale.

Without disagreeing with your conclusions, I seem to recall that the Nimitz
was roughly 30kt in earth water displacement.  Converted to Traveller
13.5m^3 tons, it comes a bit closer to 2kT in Traveller terms.  If I have
the displacement wrong, apologies.

I do think, though, that you have found a problem in the rules.  Fighters
have been made more practical, but big ships just do not have the role
which the game sort of seemed to imply for them.

Scott

- -------
fuz@deltanet.com
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:38:47 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: DN's

>The only rationale I can think of for the dreadnaught is station-keeping
>capability; simply put, bigger ships can carry more stuff, and can stay
>out there longer.
[snip]
>Can anyone else think of a good reason to justify the dreadnaught? I
>haven't studied whether or not the bloody things are actually more
>economical to build -- do you save significant amounts of money building
>a few big ships rather than scads and scuds of little ones? That could
>be the battlewagon's salvation right there... but if not, we're worse
>off than before... geez.

I see several reasons for "Huge Ships" (IMO, >250KTd):
1)	Psychological Factor (two fold). Bigger ships make crews think they
might survive longer in combat... and impress civilians with the might of
the navy fielding them, whether civies in question are friend or foe.

2)	Huge ships are capable of carriage of HUGE numbers of small craft
and large craft (100-400 Td), and small craft can be carried in deep bays,
so the limit is launching capacity... hence launch tubes. DN's should be
hybrid "Combat-Carriers", with heavy numbers of defenses.

3) Also, most of the defenses are "unit" items (IE: they don't decrease in
effect due to increase in size of mounting craft) under MT; Under TNE, some
shifts occur, and the base size of defenses seems to shrink (but I haven't
done the math).


Under Bk5:HG (CT): Dampers are a true "Unit Item", as are force fields (TL
15+), and meson screens are a unit item, but POWER cost is proportional to
size. Sand is unit item.

Under MT:
	Unit Items: Dampers, Black and White Globes, Proton Screens,
sandcasters
	Semi-unitized: Meson Screens

Under FF&S
	Unit Items: Sandcasters, Nuke Dampers,
	Semi-unitized: Force Fields
	Proportional: Meson Screens, ERA, ESA, Tractor/Repulsor

	Notes:
	Force Fields are Black or White Globes.
	Semi-Unitized: Unit item to mount, proportional power by size

So large units get the scale efficiency of single unit mounts and multiple
sandcasters. Smaller units must spend proportionally more volume to protect
an equal total displacement than a single large vessel, assuming same
desired protection level.


William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #871
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 872



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

I'm back... with the new books
Mac Deckplan templates
Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems
Re: possible T4 errata?
Re: JTAS 25.
Wil's Misjump Calculations
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Notes on Wil's MisJumps Tables
A good model for Imperium Games to look at
T4 ammunition?
Re: Jump Drives/Space
re: Whither the dreadnaught?
A new weapon for people - an idea
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Civil War Muskets (English)
Re: Vilani and Long pig
Re: Vilani and Long Pig
Re: Early Vilani snack foods

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:30:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: I'm back... with the new books

     Before I left in December for my XMas break I already knew that
"Starships" had been released (and had read the bad news), but when I finally
made it to a game store a week or so after getting home I was very surprised to
find "CSC" and "Aliens Archive" there as well.  Now that I have all three
books, and am back at school, I don't know what everyone else thinks of the two
new ones, so I'll give my unbiased opinion:

GENERAL:  These IG books are WAY overpriced.  I don't know if they're getting
screwed by their printers or are making up for small print runs or what, but--
regardless of quality, by page-count and production values alone-- all three
supplements so far have been overpriced by about $10 (or more).  I have to
imagine this is scaring off potential buyers-- heck, I'm a die-hard Traveller
fan and collector, but I had to make three separate trips to the store over the
course of a month before I accumulated all three books.

STARSHIPS:  I already have read what people had to say about this book before I
got it, and, unfortunately, I have to concurr.  With the SDS rules, the ship
stats (are they any different from the ones in the rulebook?) the
"personalities" (aka filler), and some smaller-sized illos, this could have
been a passable 48-page $8-10 supplement; instead it's, quite frankly, a really
terrible $20 one.  Those deckplans are truly a liability, as they're not only
practically worthless but also give a bad impression. Grade: D

CENTRAL SUPPLY CATALOG:  I really liked reading this book, with all the
anecdotal stuff and extra rulesy tidbits and such.  It's a shame, however, that
such good content was saddled with such bland production values and such an
outraeously high pricetag.  Had this book cost $10-12 and had slightly better
production values I'd give it an A, as is it's only a B/B-

ALIENS ARCHIVE:  Admittedly, I haven't read all of this yet, but what I have
read seems "pretty good, but not spectacular."  Hopefully, some of these
seemingly one-trick races will get further development and depth added to them
through adventures and such (like was done to the original Major races).  Once
again, the boring layout and cartoonish artwork are a detraction, especially
since the price is so high (more apropriate would be $12-14, I think).  
Grade: B-

     Since resubbing this afternoon, I read that IG from now on is going to use
professional graphics and layout people, which strikes me as very good news. 
In two out of three of these books, the content is there, and just needs to be
presented more effectively.  I'm still guardedly optimistic.
     What's everyone else's take?

Trent Smith
Glad to be back a'Travelling

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:36:19 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Mac Deckplan templates

I have put a Pict file and a Macdraw Pro library containing Zane Healy's
deckplan symbols on my web site at:

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/deckplan_symbols.sit.hqx

anyone who needs them by e-mail please let me know (anyone who has
requested them in such manner will get them tomorrow. If I can get my
@$#@!!@# Windblows PeeCee to work!!!)

been a bad day :-/


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:39:28 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Role-Playing and Task Systems

At 10:53 pm 01/20/97 -0500, Derek Dees said:
>
>>No, I like awarding every session, but I want the points given to be
>>less powerful.
>>
>>Hmm.  I'm going to have to think about this and come up with a good
>>system.
>>
>>I'm making this my new project.
>>
>>Kenneth.

	FWIW, the two ways I've always considered doing it was:

	a) Each time you succeed at a hard task (i.e. low chance), you get a hash
mark. The hashes can be built up, and used as DMs on a task to gain a skill
level. The hashes aren't lost until you actually gain the skill

	b) Experience points are awarded _after_ a session using my own judgement.
Each player identifies a few incidents that _they_ feel showed good
roleplaying and use of skills, and I decide how much they're worth to the
relevant skills.

- -- Dave Golden                         PGP Public Key available --
   goldendj@usa.net   http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:39:18 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Re: possible T4 errata?

At 08:29 pm 01/19/97 -0600, Eris Reddoch said:
>On 01/19/97 at 02:25 PM,  Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk> said:
>
>>  I presume that Traveller marines are based after American Marines, and
>> as I'm British I haven't a clue on the workings of American armed forces. 
>> Are Marines Officers only taken from enlisted ranks?.
>
>I'm sure you'll hear from other, but the short answer is no, all Marine
>Officers do not come from the enlisted ranks. Marine Officers in the USMC
>come from several sources. Some are graduates of the Naval Academy. A few
>are graduates of West Point (Army Academy).

	Or possibly even the Air Force Academy (aka Denver Day Care Center for
Delinquent Youths). AFAIK, it's possible for a graduate of one  academy to
choose to be commissioned into a different service, although only a few
each year do so. I've worked with Naval Academy guys who decided they
didn't want to go to sea or some such, and chose Air Force commissions.
- -- Dave Golden                         PGP Public Key available --
   goldendj@usa.net   http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:39:16 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Re: JTAS 25.

At 02:39 pm 01/19/97 -0800, David Smart said:
>Andrew Boulton wrote:
>> 
>> In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.88.9701160818.A24915-0100000@fujin.qub.ac.uk>
>> 
>> > I've just finished absorbing the copy of JTAS 25 that I got through the
>> > post on Monday, and it wasn't as bad as I was expecting it to be.
Here's a
>> > brief review of the articles:
>> >
>> > The Silver Moon Incident by Lew Wright. - Not a bad adventure, but it has
>> > quite a few flaws. The adventure implies that there is an FTL radio
>> > system in Traveller.
>> 
>> Plus cloaking devices and tractor beams. This isn't Traveller.
>
>No, it's not. However, it *is* Megatraveller and TNE. Both had tractor
>beams and repulsors and both had rules for using black globes as a form
>of cloaking device.

	IIRC didn't CT have repulsor beams? Why, yes, my near-critically-used Book
5 lists repulsors as a defense against missiles!

	Although I agree--"classic Traveller" (as opposed to Classic Traveller)
never had much in the way of repulsors used as "tractor beams." And
definitely no FTL radios.
- -- Dave Golden                         PGP Public Key available --
   goldendj@usa.net   http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:00:15 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: Wil's Misjump Calculations

Since there's been a lot of talk about jump lately, I though I'd share how
I figure Mis-Jump chances in play. The following is a hybrid from MT and
TNE, but can be used with any of the systems.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MisJumps

Needed stats: 	Jump Drive Wear Value (ala TNE), a 0-10 (or more) rating
		Level of success on Astrogation check
		Level of success on Engineering Task
		Gravitic Disturbance Band (<10x, 10x-99x, 100x-999x, >1000x)
		Level of damage (cuurent)

Wear Value:	 Showroom floor is 0; JD's WV can be reset to 0 by replacement
			with New JD
		+1 per rebuild
		+1 per 10 years service since last rebuild
		+1 per field repair since last annual maintenance
		+1 per year since last annual maintenance
		+1 per major damage since last annual maintenance.
	rebuild counts as annual maintenance.

Levels of success: 	Crit Success: 	-1
			Success		+0
			Failure*	+1 to +3 (nominally +2)
			Crit Failure*	+2 to +4 (nominally +3)
	* Under MegaTraveller, roll mishap, 2d for failure, 3d for crit
	failure, one die less if was cautious attempt. mishap level becomes
	penalty:
			Level		Mod	Occurs on
			Superficial	 +1	3+
			Minor Mishap	 +2	7+
			Major Mishap	 +3	11+
			Destroyed Mishap +4	15+
	AM is Astrogation Success Modifier
	EM is Engineering Modifier

Level of Damage:				Mod
	Superficial: No effect on performance	+1
	Minor:	Reduced performance		+WV
	Major:	Shut down by damage		N/A
	Damaged during Field Fromation 		Automatic MisJump
	Damaged During Zuchai Crystal Charge-up	Warning Light**

	** Warning Light means You may: discharge crystals elsewhere, and
re-charge (Fuel still used up, but don't jump); OR use existing charge, and
take the automatic misjump.

Gravitic Disturbance Band
	<10 diameters		+10
	10-99 Diameters		+3
	100-999 Diameters	+0
	>1000 diameters		-1

To check: roll 2d for AdjWV or less.
		AdjWV = WV + AM + EM + GM + LoDM
	If misjump occurs, roll 1d, plus 1d per 4 points by which roll was made

Jump Mishaps (adapted from MT/SSOM)
	 2- Trivial: Warning lights, or visible distortions, or 1d6 HOUR
			relativity error, or other totally trivial stuff.
	 3+ Superficial: Jump Relativity Error: 1d6+4 days in jump, same time
			passes in N-Space, but roll secondary effect.
	 7+ Minor: Jump Relativity Error II: 2d6+2 days in J-Space, and 1
			secondary effect (which see, below)
	11+ Major: Jump Error: Classic Mis-jump occurs, and 1 secondary effect.
	15+ Destroyed: Ship will be destroyed. Results up to GM.
	19+ Destroyed II: Totally Goners: Go see god(s), devil(s), etc.


Secondary Effects:
	Roll 2d6 if directed here, and modify by 1 away from center for
every full 10 points of AdjWV; note that a Superficial mishap means any
un-adjusted roll of 6 or less has no effect.
	0-	2d6 years pass in N-space during Jump
	1	1d6 years pass in N-space during jump
	2	2d6 Months pass in N-Space during jump
	3	1d6 Months Pass in N-Space
	4	3d6 days pass in N-Space
	5	2d6 days pass in N-Space
	6	1d3+6 days pass in N-Space
	7	Visual Distorion: everything is shimmering
	8	Minor Nausea: Easy Endurance to remain functional
	9	Moderate Nausea: Average End to remain functional
	10	Major Nausea: Difficult End to remain funtional, Easy
		Determination(TNE:Willpower; T4: End) to avoid injury
	11	Critical Nausea: Formidable End to remain functional
		Difficult Determination to avoid injury
	12	Lethal Nausea: Impossible End to remain functional
		Formidable Determination to avoid injury
	13+	Lethal Nausea II: Impossible Determination to avoid injury;
		Nobody remains functional!

[notes in next message]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 23:42:14 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

On 01/21/97 at 06:01 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

> Stars are moving *relative* to each other. Average velocity diff is about
> 50 km/sec. So if you jump with a 50 km/s velocity "north", and the
> destination star is moving 50 km/s north, you come in at rest (relative
> to the star, you'll need about 20-30 km/s to match the orbital velocity
> of the planet).  If the star was moving south, you've got to kill 100
> km/s, then match orbits.

I have the ship emerge in the new system with exactly the same velocity and
vector as the largest local gravational source...the primary star.  The
difference in velocity and vector is dumped in jumpspace and as a photonic
discharge during the period just before the ship emerges from jump space. 
I don't attempt to conserve momentum, I just let jumpspace average
everything out.  

Just the way I do it.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:44:15 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: Notes on Wil's MisJumps Tables

By haing most misjumps 95% or so) simply be time dialation/distortion,
commerce is not impeded by the average WV of 3 or less; the true "Where the
$%^& are We???" becomes much less common. Trade and Commerce can be
reliable even with a J-1 when less than 8% go awry, assuming careless
crews.

Also, highly skilled crews can, using my misjump calculations, nurse along
ships with WV's in excess of 3, with little problem under MT or TNE; T4,
change the success mods table to be -1 mod for success, -3 for crit success.

The secondary effects I seldom roll; I just "feel" for it [note to PN: All
the time dialations over a week have been random rolls, not GM cruelty]
with an eye towards storyline.

Also, I usually impose a 1 point penalty for a previous misjump until an
inspection is made; normally I just have one of the following problems:
- --	"a Zuccai crystal is cracked, and will need to be replaced"
- --	"You need to clean the deposits off the Fusing Chamber"
- --	"You've got hairline cracks in your Lanthanum grid"
- --	"Your jump governor has bad algorythms... it doesn't seem to match the
	specified part numbers for your drive..."
- --	"Your Fusion Chamber Gravitics are going
	out-of-alignment/phase/synch/unstable [pick one]"
The first: They are 0.5% of Jump Drive Volume, at 4MCr per Ton
displacement, and I assume them to mass 10 Tons per cubic meter (thus they
mass 0.675 tons, and take 67.5 Litres per Td of Jump Drive). The volume is
from High Guard; the mass from my common sense, and figuring what felt
right out of MT's 27T per 13.5 KL (TNE/T4: 0.7 Tm and 0.07 Td per Disp ton
of JD). Only a yard or spare crystals will do to negate the modifier.

Deposits can be cleaned any time the Jump drive is cool... IE, anytime more
than 24 hours after entering jump. Routine Engineering and Dex.

Hairline Cracks can be fixed with Lanthanum Alloy Solder, and EVA. Long
(1d6*1d6)+1d6 man-hours per 100 tons hull displacement.

Jump Governor: Replace or re-program. Reprogramming: Formidable, Computer
or Engineering, Int. Takes about a week.  Fatefull, Hazardous, Uncertain.

Gravitics: I assume gravitics have some role in Traveller Fusion plants
(after all, so many engineers get gravitics). So I assign some gravitics
roll to repair the gravitics involved with the JD's Fusion Plant.

Also, I assume that Jump Drives operate  by exciting a lanthanum (or
irridium) hull grid to a certain minimum quantum energy state, then pulsing
it in some pattern to "weave the tumble", then finally pushing it up to a
high level. The energized grid forms a bubble around the ship, which keeps
J-space approxamately  1m away from the hull, and also, the bubble has a
minimum curve radius of 2m. As the energy bleeds, it can be monitored. Due
to J-Physics, the bleed is almost trivial until return to normal space;
when it drops below threshold, the bubble collapses and the ship returns to
N-Space. The "bleed" is a quantum state change with a decay time of 1 week
in J-space, and measured in Plank units in N-space.

As a side note, a player once used this to sabotage a ship: he snipped a
path 4.2m wide in JUST the L-Grid, all the way around the ship, just behind
the bridge, then hid in engineering (Type T patrol cutter, BTW). When the
ship left dock, he overpowered the engineering crew, and  triggered the
jump drive. The ship was cut in half, then the aft (PC included) was
hollowed out by the Jump Field. They found pieces fo the ship over a 10pc
line.

Another Side Note: In my games, I assume that Irridium was used by the
solomani and vilani for their early (J-1, J-2) jump drives, and heve became
a very valuable metal. But it required half the spaceing interval, and thus
4x the area, of lanthanum, as well as 4 times the power (and thus drive
mass and volume). This assumption was made to justify the use of irridium
as the backing of imperial currency rather than lanthanum, which is more
strategic. Also, I assign Irridium drives a 2 point bonus versus misjump
chances, but they also take twice the penalties when figuring out how bad a
misjump is...;-)



William F. Hostman
Mailto:Aramis@Asylumbbs.com

Traveller, GURPS, Hero, WFRP, SFB, Star Wars, and Masterbook GM
Star Trek, B5, and Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:52:55 -0500
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@wizard.net>
Subject: A good model for Imperium Games to look at

Earlier today I visted the Chameleon Eclectic website.  [CE is about to 
publish _The Babylon Project_, the B5 RPG.]  They have just added an artwork 
section to the site.

The artwork is _very_ good.  I especially enjoyed the ship deckplan example 
they presented -- Imperium should take a look at these, if for no other reason 
than this is what they are going to have to compete against in the very near 
future.

http://www.blackeagle.com

- --Chris Weuve
caw@wizard.net (h)    caw@intercon.com (w/day)    chrisweuve@usa.net (perm) 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the 
things I cannot, and a great big bag of money."  [author unknown]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:21:21 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: T4 ammunition?

I know this is probably a really dumb question,
but where the hell are the prices and weights
for small arms ammunition in the T4 rulebook?
I'm assuming that with the exception of the
body pistol, one does not purchase a new
weapon to get more bullets!

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:08:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump Drives/Space

In mail you write:

>
> On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> >
>> > 7.  Requests for help via com laser from a needle-shaped transparent ship
>> > orbiting a ringworld. (Ringworld...anybody remember Chaosium?)
>> 
>> Arrgh! I used to *own* a copy of that... I can't believe that I forgot it.
>
>    Speaking of which...if _anyone_ has a copy of this game, let me know!

I got reminded (on another list) that there are RPG rules for Robotech....
That ought to nauseate your players to the point where you don't *need*
the rules!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 02:29:31 -0800
From: Eric Nolan <ericno@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: re: Whither the dreadnaught?

>I'm not picking at the rules; just wondering why, in the 'real' world,
>anybody would really build a military vessel bigger than, say, 30,000
>tons. For that, you can have a decent-sized spinal mount, decent
>manuver, decent armor, decent fighter compliment -- decent everything.

There is no good reason to build dreadnaughts. . . . and there never
was.
Even in the days of High Guard it was more efficient to have smaller (10
- -
50 kTons rather than 100+ kTons) ships.  You got more bang for your
buck.

The rationale, IMO, for the classic 100kTon+ Dreadnaughts is that the
Navy/Governments like big, flashy ships.  They don't want decent
components,
they want the best components.  Size goes up accordingly.  When every
official is finished adding spec and chrome you end up with a monster
ship.
Not a very efficient monster, but a very, very flashy one.

Don't forget the Imperium is not continously at war.  As a matter of
fact they
are quite peacable when the long view is taken.  It is not a matter of
life and
death that their forces be the most efficient possible.  Inefficient
designs can
and will exist.  I'm sure the military heads on this list can point out
any number
of currently in use weapon systems that could be better designed.  

The Traveller players obsession with efficiency comes from the
competitiveness
of the games (TCS, BL, BR etc.) and the simplistic models used in these
games 
(which allows us to very effectively measure the effectiveness of a
design).  
Political and economic factors are rarely if ever taken into account.
Perhaps
the dreadnaught sized warship is more effective as a political tool.
You don't need
a totally efficient fleet if you know that your neighbours cannot attack
you without
ruining their economy.

In short - my reason for the existance of the dreadnaughts (if you like
them).  They
look good, they impress the locals and . . . . why not?

Eric.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:55:11 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: A new weapon for people - an idea

I have no way of working this out, as i have none of the books people keep
mentioning such as 3G3 (BTW what the hell does 3G3 stand for).

Here is my out line for a laser rifle that could be made now i.e. AD1997,
it would be nice for people to tear it to shreds and tell me why it could
or couldn't work.

As far as i can see the only thing stopping us having laser weapons at the
moment is not having a power source strong enough to supply the power, i
think this is bulshit, 

My weapon would look a bit like a semi auto shotgun but instead of loading
it with buckshot cartridges load it with high charge capacitors, each
capacitor supplies one shot, there may or may not be enough energy released
in the discharge to trigger a brief burst from the laser to be of use, once
discharged the capacitor is ejected exactly like the shotgun cartridge.

Ok this is now open for ridicule, but if anyone wants to spec a Milleu 0
version it would mean you don't have a bloody great power pack on your
back, but you dont have as many shots.

Lets see you chew on this one.


Colin Hollands	
Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
MIS Europe & Africa Region
Phone:	0171 413 3413
Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:32:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

In mail you write:

> Since we're changing universes, going from normal-space to jump-space, I 
> don't feel the need to stick to Isaac Newton's or Descartes', or even 
> Einstein's frame of reference. For simplicity's sake, in my game 
> jumpspace automatically transforms your reference frame to be based upon 
> the nearest gravity well. This is jumpspace. Momentum is irrelevant. 
> Physics is irrelevant. Resistance is futile.
>
> What exactly are the ramifications of ignoring the law of conservation of 
> momentum in this case? What kind of hairy paradoxes does it invoke? Am I 
> truly out to lunch here?

Well, what it's doing is changing the net momentum of the *universe*.
If you are using a reaction drive, the momentum of the "exhaust" and
that of the ship cancel. But if making a jump changes the ship's
momentum, they don't balance anymore. This may not sound like much, but
it changes the value of the "stress energy tensor" which means it is
changing the curvature of space and even of the entire universe.


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:32:45 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Civil War Muskets (English)

On Wed, 22 Jan 1997 Peter  H. Brenton scribbled:

>I meant to say that they were not much *longer*.  I seem to remember a 6
>foot musket (plus 2' bayonet!)

As stated before I'm Member of the English Civil war reenactment, my Musket
is a reproduction of a 17th Century Matchlock muzzle loader, the barrel is
48 inches long with a further foot and half of  stock, in the civil war
they didn't use bayonets, musketeers carried swords, muskets were aimed if
standing by using a rest (4-5 foot pole with a U shaped piece of metal on
top for the musket to rest in and a point on the other to stick in the
ground), maximum range was about a mile, maximum accurate range was about
150 yards, rate of fire is about 1 round every 2-3 minutes (less if your
not as careful and don't mind risking it blowing up in your face) the
reason for the length of time is that you have to readjust the match (a
piece of lit string) so that it is positioned correctly to set the powder
off in your flash pan, Flintlocks were faster to load and use, (due to no
lit match to worry about) but as we have found out they fire only about 1
in 5-10 tries (the sparks don't always light the flash pan, regardless of
what films show), the whole point of this post is to say that your hunting
rifle is not too long but im not sure about the weight, although it sounds
like an ideal sniper weapon.


Colin Hollands	
Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
MIS Europe & Africa Region
Phone:	0171 413 3413
Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:17:31 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long pig

At 12:32 22/01/1997 -0500, you 

>Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:58:07 -0800, Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>;

>I think you miss my point.  Rather than trying to invent reasons
>why the Vilani would be cannibalistic, it would be better
>to say that such reasons are simply anti-Vilani propaganda.
>That way it doesn't matter if they are flawed or
>not and they still cast the same light on the Vilani.

>>We've had our Donner Pass and Andes soccer team incidents.

>True, these are examples of how humans only resort to
>cannibalism when faced with imminent death.  They didn't
>do it because they want more protein in their diet.  What
>is more these incedents are, in fact, the exception (which
>is why they are so well known :-) and, even in the face
>of starvation, on a few people will resort to cannibalism.

Not so I'm afraid. Before contact with Europeans the
NZ Maori regularly practised cannibalism. The practice
was highly ritualised and restricted to enemies who
had been defeated in battle (either as a mark of
respect or lack of respect depending on which
historian you read), but it was none the less a very
real fact of the culture. Most anthropologists agree
the root cause was the lack of high protein sources
native to NZ. What does this show about the Vilani?
Not a heck of a lot, but it does show that a highly
developed advanced culture can practice
cannibalism and in fact make it an intergral part
of their culture.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:45:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

In mail you write:

> Finally, the fact is the _anticannibalism_ is locked in genetically
> and is why humans don't, in fact, resort to such things unless
> faced with imminent death (and usually, exceptions not withstanding,
> not even then).

Sorry, but this *isn't* a fact. Far from it. The human species has a
*long* history of cannibalism. And of *taboos* to prevent it. If there
truly was a "genetic" reason, then you wouldn't have cannibalism
occuring in emergency situations. 

I'm afraid that you are confusing your cultural conditioning with
facts. 

> Even if we ignore the previous, the fact that
> cannibalism isn't good for social species would assert itself
> after the population adjusted itself to meet the food supply
> (and it will, cannibalism or no).

Whether or not cannibalism is good for a social species depends
entirely on the conditions under which it occurs. And *being* both
social and intelligent humans use taboos to set those conditions.

> While the _relative_ lack of diseases (diseases won't be non-existant,
> just less common) lessens _one_ of the problems the others
> still remain.  Also, the main driving force is that the
> dynamic of cannibalism make it hard to use for species
> survival and nearly impossible for social species.

I suggest that you take a good look at one of the *most* social species
known. Ants. Dead ants are eaten... by the other ants.

Killing members OF YOUR OWN SOCIAL GROUP is bad for the group. Killing
members of OTHER GROUPS is only bad for your group if it hurts your
group. And this is regardless of whether you eat them. 


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:42:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Early Vilani snack foods

In mail you write:

>>No, I said that the Vilani had no more reason to be cannibals
>>than Terrans and there is no _more_ reason that it would be
>>a part of their past than it was of ours.

Let's just examine the *first* part of that statement a bit.

I suggest that a study of the existing antropoligical and archeological
record will show that cannibalism (if only ceremonial) not only
*occured*, but was rather common in primitive cultures. *All* primitive
cultures.

In fact, that's *why* it's a universal taboo. To quote Jubal Harshaw in
Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land": "I can think of a lot of
people I wouldn't dare turn my back on if we didn't have a taboo so
strong you thought it was an instinct". 

>         Well, the Solomani progressed to civilization on a planet on which
> they'd evolved, and whose flora and fauna provided a broad and varied diet
> that was extremely well suited for feeding humans... or rather, humans were
> very well suited to eating it.
>
>         The Vilani, OTOH, were abandoned on a distant planet whose flora
> and fauna they'd not evolved beside, whose biochemistry was sufficiently
> different that it required extensive processing by specialists before it
> became edible; not just palatable, but actually non-toxic.

Which means that if nothing else, I rather suspect that the standard
means of disposing of the bodies of those who had died by natural
causes would be by eating them. This would conserve a valuable source
of nutrients, and be little risk. 

Given the "fact" that there weren't any diseases brought with them
*and* that they weren't at all related to anything else on the planet,
it'd be a *long* time before anything evolved that *could* infect
humans. Much longer than has been available.

The only "diseases" present on Vland would be some bacterial/fungal
infestations where the organism was using the body as *food*. The
earthly equivalents are athletes foot, various "yeast infections", and
gangrene. Given the trouble the Vilani have making things edible, I'd
say that such things would be relatively rare. 

And given the lack of true pathogens, the types of "infections"
described above would be easily defeated by simply washing regularly,
and in the case of "infected" wounds, merely by reopening the wound and
cleaning it with the one "antiseptic" known to primitive peoples....
Urine! (No, I'm not kidding)

So while I don't see Vilani "hunting" for each other. I can see them
eating those slain in combat. And it would be their equivalent of an
honorable funeral. I suspect that the *worst* insult possible would be
to declare that someone *wasn't* fit to eat (much like the Catholic
practice of denying burial in consecrated ground to those guiltry of
certain offenses).

This give Vilani "cannibalism" a very different slant than the word
normally has. Strangely, this is actually *closer* to the way groups
like the New Guinea "headhunters" treat the matter.

This could rather surprise the first Solomani invited to a funeral, but
it wouldn't surprise one with a good grounding in anthropology.

If folks don't want to go this way, that's fine. Just don't try to
justify the decision with "facts" that aren't. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #872
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 873



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Gridlore Technologies Delivers!
Re: aargh, this is poor
Re: Mac Deckplan templates
Re: Pogo sticks, gearheads, et. al.
Re: pogo sticks...
Mileau 0/First Survey screw-up
Re: Mac Deckplan templates
Re: Reformation Coalition
Re: Cannibalism and food source
Re: possible T4 errata?
Re: Babel fish
Re: TL 14 relics in the Year 0
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #872
Re: Civil War Muskets (English)
Re: A new weapon for people - an idea
Re: Good News for Traveller!
Re: Early Vilani snack foods/Cannibalism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:06:57 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gridlore Technologies Delivers!

you mentioned something about 'pre-orders'...I wanna I wanna I wanna!!!!

Ever seen Tremors 2? The puppy that Michael Gross fires in that (a real
gun btw) is a mere wimpy .50 cal belted round.

A fun place to go on the net for real-life stuff about really-big-guns is:

http://www.prairienet.org/guns/big/ 

There are a number of links to sites about stuff like .50 cal rifles,
pistols, etc (yes there is a .50 BMG pistol...it's about the size of a
small carbine, but technically it is a pistol:-0

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:54:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: aargh, this is poor

On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Joseph Heck wrote:

> Joseph E. Walsh said:
> > Mark my words; 1997 will be the year of Traveller! :)
> 
> Bad pun... really bad.

Thank you! :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:25:40 +0000
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Mac Deckplan templates

At 21:36 22/01/97 -0700, you wrote:
>I have put a Pict file and a Macdraw Pro library containing Zane Healy's
>deckplan symbols on my web site at:
>
>http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/deckplan_symbols.sit.hqx
>

	What is the .hqx extension? I use a PC, so I don't know that. Is it
possible you can upload them in .gif or .jpg? Thanks.


Bruce E J Lewis

InterNet - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk , mailto:bejlewis@aol.com
Mobile Tel - 0956-506527

From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at
http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:19:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Pogo sticks, gearheads, et. al.

Commander X here again
(pay no attention to the title bar, or the man behind the curtain!)

This thread about wierd tech, gearheads, and POWER(Raugh!)  deserves 
this....

Imagine if you would, "Home Improvement/Tool time" in the 45th century on 
Sylea.

"HI I'm Tim the multitool man Taylor, and togay were going to alter this old 
Grev Belt, try to give it more power! Raugh, Raugh,RAUGH! As you can se, Ive 
take nout the batter pack and put in a TL-12 20MW Cleon Industries Fusion 
Plus, RAUGH!"

"I don't think so Tim", says Al

"Come on Al, I know what im doing, now if i can just turn this baby 
on.....WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

Tim forgot to set the thrust control, or provide a control for it, and flies 
right through the cieling and almost to orbit before he hits the off switch 
and plummets back to SOLID ground.

Is that sick enough? :-)
My appologies to Mr. Tim Allen.

CmdrX---"The Commander"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 07:06:55 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: pogo sticks...

At 07:53 AM 1/21/97 -0500, you wrote:

>        Well, yeah.  The pogo stick is Ross's fault.  I just crunched the
>numbers :).

>        Rumour has it those fun-loving guys at FSG&T are working on
>HEPlaR-powered inline rollerskates.  Stay tuned.

Oh, my.  I'm going to be coding a lot of Silly Era stuff in the near future...

<grin>

+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:57:46 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Mileau 0/First Survey screw-up

        I was stunned when I first read Joe's account of the snafu regarding
Mileau 0 and First Survey, and then I fell out of my chair laughing! Those
of us who remember the controversy surrounding the completely different Core
Subsector in the T4 rulebook can just imagine what the hue and cry would
have been if there had been TWO different Core Sectors!! Thanks to Marc, we
won't have to endure this.
        I am not even upset about the delay, if it results in the products
being of the finest quality. In fact, IG might want to consider slowing down
thier release schedule to every other month, to give more lead time for
catching errors like this. Mistakes happen, but they can be corrected if
spotted in time.
        It make sense for 1997 to be the Year of Traveller...20 years since
the game's original release...and the re-release of the movie which helped
inspire it's initial popularity...the pieces are all in place!

                                                Allen Shock

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:41:19 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mac Deckplan templates

arrrrggggghhhh! yep...I threw it onto the site and spaced chmod'ing it
Doh!

I'll fix it straightaway. I'd sack the doofus involved, except that it was
me ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Jeff Schmidt wrote:

> >I have put a Pict file and a Macdraw Pro library containing Zane Healy's
> >deckplan symbols on my web site at:
> >
> >http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/deckplan_symbols.sit.hqx
> >
> 
> I don't think you have your permissions set properly for ftp (as of 10am
> CST, anyway).
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jeff Schmidt                         | NetCo Communications Corporation
> software engineer, Mac development   | 333 N. Washington Ave. Ste. 102
> (612) 519-0878                       | Minneapolis MN 55401, USA
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:22:48 GMT
From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Subject: Re: Reformation Coalition

Paul Walker writes (some time ago):
> The Reformation Coalition BARD Library is looking for Volunteers from within
> the Reformation Coalition to assist in compiling data and presenting it in
> the BARD system.

Sorry this has taken me so long to reply to, but I've been rather busy
recently.

I currently run a campaign set just outside the RC, and so
occasionally develop ships, personalities, etc for the RC.  Can you
tell me what you do, and how I could help out.  I have limited net
access (it basically consists of a mail gateway), so although I know
you have a web site somewhere I have yet to be able to visit it.

As an aside, do you know of any FF&S ship design spreadsheets I can
get someone to mail me?

			Chris.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:37:52 -0500 (EST)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Re: Cannibalism and food source

Hello all!
 
	Everybody mentions that the cannibalistic food-chain wouldnt
work on Vland because theres nothing to feed those who will be eaten.
 
	It seems to me that the best way to get a working food chain
would be to put the human victims AT THE BOTTOM of the chain!  The
vilani had with them various parasites, fungi and such.  Wouldn't
they be able to 'grow' non-toxic fungi and such on human hosts, where
say, for example, a victim would have a symbiotic relationship with 
a certain fungi that grows into enormous, painful lumps on his back,
but they absorb the toxic chemiclas from his blood stream?  That way
you can feed the victims with the local flora/fauna, and feed the
rest of the population with green meat that smells like feet or
cheese? :)  

	Just a thougth.


- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 04:24:15 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: possible T4 errata?

At 09:39 PM 1/22/97 -0700, Dave Golden wrote:

>	Or possibly even the Air Force Academy (aka Denver Day Care Center for
>Delinquent Youths). AFAIK, it's possible for a graduate of one  academy to
>choose to be commissioned into a different service, although only a few
>each year do so. I've worked with Naval Academy guys who decided they
>didn't want to go to sea or some such, and chose Air Force commissions.

It would be extremely unusual for a refugee from the Colorado Institute for
the Investigation of Prolonged Expouse to Low-02 Enviroments (aka
Brain-Damage High), to become a Marine.  USAFA doesn'r begin to provide the
training in combatives that even USNA does.

+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 07:06:50 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Babel fish

At 02:11 PM 1/22/97 EST, Hugh Foster wrote:

>>> The top 10, according to arcane:
>
>1. Call of Cthulhu
>2. AD&D
>3. Traveller
>4. Warhammer Fantasy PRG
>5. RuneQuest
>6. Vampire: The Masquerade
>7. Paranoia
>8. Shadowrun
>9. Star Wars, and...
>10. Cyberpunk <<
>
>Hmn. CoC is OOP as I recall, Traveller has been until 
>recently. RQ has had mere scrap released for it in five or 
>six years. Interesting. CoC must be the _least_ modified 
>game rules system in the entire pile. 

CoC has gone through at least 5 editions.. nothing major, just refinements.
I think it has earned it's spot at the top.

To be honest, if Traveller had been rated by the four different sets of
rules that it has been, we might not have made the top Ten at all.

+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:30:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: TL 14 relics in the Year 0

Hi. Hans wrote:

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> 
> Richard Hough writes:
>> I would complain if the TL 14 items were described as standard issue, but
>> they are not. They are described as "beyond current Imperium expertise" and
>> "recovered from derelict ships". 
> 
> But that still implies that within 20-30 parsecs of Sylea at least one TL 
> 14+ civilization existed not so very many centuries ago. That alone is so
> interesting that it would have a major impact on the background. At the
> very least the Hightechian civilization would be known throughout the
> Imperium (in name if nothing else) and deserves a note in the history
> books.

This issue reminds me of an excellent little CT adventure, "Annic Nova",
which featured a starship with a very alien jump drive that did not
require jump-fuel. Nothing was known about the strange human minor race
that created it. I believe somewhere the referee is told that they had a
civilisation far away coreward.

If you drop your assumption that the artificers lived 20-30 parsecs from
Sylea, then these gimmicks become more plausible. And more rare.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 11:09:48 -0500
From: Ross Coburn <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #872

OK, I've watched this thread take on near-c properties of late, and have 
only a single point to make.  If it sounds a bit flame-ish, please do not 
take it in that manner, but understand that this is a tired, 
prematurely-aged discussion.

I am under the distinct impression that most of the anti-Vilanibilism 
posters' arguments are based more ir own distaste for the subject and 
subsequently-formulated reasoning than by any real evidence to the 
contrary.  What do we 'know' about the Vilani?  That NOTHING WHATSOEVER 
on Vland was (or, for that matter is) edible without fairly extensive 
preparation.  Nothing, that is, except OTHER VILANI.  I leave the rest up 
to your fecund imaginations.

Oh, and one final note; I introduced Mr. Elliott to both Traveller (for 
which we are mutually pleased, I'm sure) and this list (which I will 
regret to my dying day).  I have to PLAY in the environment he is 
developing, complete, no doubt, with slavering proto-Vilani on some 
backwater we'll end up stranded on, pogo-ing orbital pre-teens, and 
Famille Spofulam Yards.  If *I* can live with this stuff, you people 
certainly can as well.


Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

Vampires aren't real. Get a life.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:55:44 -0600 (CST)
From: ccguy@showme.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: Civil War Muskets (English)

The earliest muskets in the Sixteenth Century were slightly bigger than 
this. Bayonets came along probably in the 1650's or 1660's for the first 
time. These were plug bayonets and were only in limited use until the 
late Seventeenth Century. The earliest bayonets may have been used for 
hunting wild boar. 

Later flintlocks supposedly had a better rate of misfires. On the 
parade ground, in the Revolutionary/Napoleonic period, the rate 
of misfires was supposed to be about 1 in 8 shots. On the field
of battle, it is thought to be 1 in 4 by that time. 

Guy Wilson

On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Colin Hollands wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Jan 1997 Peter  H. Brenton scribbled:
> 
> >I meant to say that they were not much *longer*.  I seem to remember a 6
> >foot musket (plus 2' bayonet!)
> 
> As stated before I'm Member of the English Civil war reenactment, my Musket
> is a reproduction of a 17th Century Matchlock muzzle loader, the barrel is
> 48 inches long with a further foot and half of  stock, in the civil war
> they didn't use bayonets, musketeers carried swords, muskets were aimed if
> standing by using a rest (4-5 foot pole with a U shaped piece of metal on
> top for the musket to rest in and a point on the other to stick in the
> ground), maximum range was about a mile, maximum accurate range was about
> 150 yards, rate of fire is about 1 round every 2-3 minutes (less if your
> not as careful and don't mind risking it blowing up in your face) the
> reason for the length of time is that you have to readjust the match (a
> piece of lit string) so that it is positioned correctly to set the powder
> off in your flash pan, Flintlocks were faster to load and use, (due to no
> lit match to worry about) but as we have found out they fire only about 1
> in 5-10 tries (the sparks don't always light the flash pan, regardless of
> what films show), the whole point of this post is to say that your hunting
> rifle is not too long but im not sure about the weight, although it sounds
> like an ideal sniper weapon.
> 
> 
> Colin Hollands	
> Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
> MIS Europe & Africa Region
> Phone:	0171 413 3413
> Fax:	0171 257 6369
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 07:49:22 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A new weapon for people - an idea

At 11:55 AM 1/23/97 +0000, Colin Hollands wrote:

>I have no way of working this out, as i have none of the books people keep
>mentioning such as 3G3 (BTW what the hell does 3G3 stand for).

Guns! Guns! Guns!  (Greg is *real* subtle)

>Here is my out line for a laser rifle that could be made now i.e. AD1997,
>it would be nice for people to tear it to shreds and tell me why it could
>or couldn't work.

It's actually in the supplement More Guns! (grin).  It's about the size of a
professional TV remote unit, and requires a heavy battery belt. Lasts about
30 seconds and does about equal damage to a 9mm.

>As far as i can see the only thing stopping us having laser weapons at the
>moment is not having a power source strong enough to supply the power, i
>think this is bulshit, 

Having spent much of last night bashing out a railgun, let me just say that
RESISTANCE is a pain.  So much of the battery-storage bank-beam energy gets
lost as heat!  This is how the real world works, so I'll kep working with it.

>My weapon would look a bit like a semi auto shotgun but instead of loading
>it with buckshot cartridges load it with high charge capacitors, each
>capacitor supplies one shot, there may or may not be enough energy released
>in the discharge to trigger a brief burst from the laser to be of use, once
>discharged the capacitor is ejected exactly like the shotgun cartridge.

Using capacitors availible right now, this just possible.. but the disads in
weight and heat make a slug thrower just that more effective.

>Ok this is now open for ridicule, but if anyone wants to spec a Milleu 0
>version it would mean you don't have a bloody great power pack on your
>back, but you dont have as many shots.

You need to remember that the capacitors are going to need to be 'shelled',
and that they will have a considerable weight.  I could do a one-shot sniper
weapon like this... I'll give it a whack.

>Lets see you chew on this one.

Munch munch munch..

OK, a 1-shot, TL 8 laser with the stopping power of a 7.62mm NATO round..
I'll try it.

+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 07:53:01 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Good News for Traveller!

At 02:25 PM 1/22/97 -0600, Joe came back from the mountain with more stone
tablets:

>Hi folks,

>1)  All future T4 products will be reviewed by MWM at each stage of the 
>process (on a chapter-by-chapter basis).  In the past, Marc wasn't passed 
>a copy of the products in time to do a full review, when he was given 
>them at all (as I understand it).  Now, Marc will be able to provide the 
>benefit of his incredible imagination and knowledge as the products are 
>created.

This what should have been happening all along!  It also explains much about
the Reign of Error.  No offence to Ken whitman, but I was appaled by the
thought that Marc Miller was approving of what was happeing.  Now I know he
didn't even see it.  Amazing...  

>2)  IG has some great stuff planned for Traveller this year.  
>
>    a)  JTAS will go to slick stock with color interiors, and will 
>generally look a lot more like a high-quality, mainstream magazine.  
>There will be a monthly comic strip, an editorial, a letters page, and so 
>on. 

I truely considered 325 a test run, and actually got more than I expected.
I'm about to send of my first few submissions.. anybody else?

>    b)  Citizens of the Imperium will be beefed up with an ID card, online 
>"inside info," product discounts, and so on and so forth.  Details still 
>being worked out.

You know, I really need to hear more about this before I join.. I'd love to
get Arameth Gridlore "registered" (he'd howl with fury at the thought), but
I want to know exactly what i'm getting for my $15.

>    c)  He's looking into an all-Traveller convention being held at some 
>point.

YES YES YES!!!  Might I suggest someplace near a major NASA facility or
astronomy program?  It might be fun to tour Huntsville with a bunch of TMLers..

>    d)  Art for all future products will be produced specifically for 
>those products; no more "generic" art!! 

Does this mean the end of the Foss era?  Perhaps getting some talented new
(as in just starting out) artists in? 

>    e)  The web site will continue to be expanded.  More links.  Also, a 
>Sector-type map will be put in, with each of the fan sites appearing as a 
>solar system on it which can be clicked on to go to that site.  Expanded 
>support for the IRC on the website.  And so on.

So far I heartily approve of the new website.  It's informative, fun and
growing!  The map sounds beautiful.. I can't wait to see a star labeled
"Duck's Traveller Gateway".  Thought: Will the sites on the Web Ring be
linked by X-boat routes?

>    f)  Professional editing and graphic design will be used for all 
>future products!

It'll be a nice change.

>    G)  This year's Gen-Con will see Traveller with a far, far bigger 
>presence.

If GenCon happens.. evidently T$R is in big trouble.. but that's another
story.  Is IG interested in having demo teams?  I wiil work for t-shirts and
playtest copies!  now I just need to figure if I can make GenCon this year.

>In short, Courtney believes in Traveller, and he's devoting a lot of his 
>attention to it.  With Tim Brown doing the day-to-day product 
>management, and Marc Miller being involved at every step of the product 
>design process, 1997 will truly be the year of Traveller.

Tim Brown is a name I trust.  If I could pass one message to IG, it would be
Do It Right.  I was willing to wait months for the Regency Sourcebook, and
was not disapointed, so if it takes a few weeks to make sure the product is
good, take it!

OK, another question: Will there be a bug-stompted edition of the T4 rules?

+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:12:24 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: Early Vilani snack foods/Cannibalism

Phillip McGregor wrote:

>
>To inject a further note of reality into this long-term discussion.
>
>Has anyone who has seriously suggested this considered the food chain
>implications? I mean, you all know the classic pyramidal structure with
>plants at the bottom and man at the top (I presume) -- and the fact that it
>takes a *lot* of plants to feed a herbivore to produce meat, which is more
>efficient a food for men than plant matter and so on.
>
>Well, OK, then consider this. Cannibalism in the form everyone seems to be
>taking for granted misses the major problem. What do the "munchies" eat
>*before* they become munchies? In other words, its mathematically
>impossible to have a situation where cannibalism plays a significant role
>in the Vilani diet *unless* there is a lot of *other* ("non-Vilani") food
>to feed the "victims" in the first place.


        Which we know there was.  Admittedly, of lousy quality that
required extensive processing to render non-toxic, and which, in the early
years, may or may not have been ideal, but it's obvious that there was
enough to survive on or the Vilani never would have reached the stars and
given the Solomani that inferiority complex they've been compensating for
ever since.


>
>In other words, its a chicken and egg argument. If you have to rely on
>cannibalism for a significant portion of your food supply, then what do the
>victims (who must also be cannibals) live on?
>
>In other words, cannibalism as anything more than an interesting cultural
>anomaly -- much the way it is on Terra -- is impossible.


        Not at all; you're in a situation where you can live on pounded
fermented Blekk root and dried boiled Kuukietaass leaves, and possibly some
local animals.  Food processing may or may not (we don't have any
indication) require significant labour.  And then you've got these annoying
individuals in the next valley over who taste pretty darn good (as they
should, they're the only naturally compatible protein source/nutritionally
complete food you've got) and who may be competing for valuable resources.
What do you do?  You eat them.  An interesting cultural anomaly brought on
by Vland's unique food-chain situation.


>
>Look at it another way, food supply is *the* limiting factor on population
>size. Ergo, if there is not enough food to go around, then population will
>be limited to whatever the food supply will support -- and there will be no
>excess humans for "dinner".
>
>And another factor. Did you know that eating humans (or other animals) that
>have died of starvation is a *bad thing*? You get what is called *protein
>poisoning* ... and it can kill you! Evidently all that is left in such a
>case is too much protein. So, even in famine situations, unless you
>slaughter people for food *before* the famine actually bites, the use of
>"long pig" is not on.
>
>A nice theory overall, but (almost) completely insupportable on any form of
>logical basis!


        Well, it's insupportable if we posit a diet that's insufficient to
support humans.  However, if we posit a diet that supports humans, but does
entail ailments due to low amounts of key nutrients or slow fixation and
buildup of toxins or whatever, and tastes really vile to boot, then it
still stands up quite nicely.  As for the closed system argument, of
course; however, we are talking about a planet here, at a stage where human
society on it had not become globespanning.  Local groups had plenty of
room to expand by eating their neighbours.

        We "know" that there was enough food on Vland to support humans.
We know that it was a) of alien biochemistry and b) required special
preparation by a class of ritual specialists.  We know that the body of
knowledge held by these specialists was not acquired overnight, and we know
that the Vilani tend towards extreme conservatism.  We know that no local
microorganisms can infect the Vilani.  We know that the Vilani reached the
stars before any other branch of Humaniti, and established dominion over
the rest of Humaniti until the Solomani came along.  And we know that the
Vilani are no longer cannibals (at least in public :>).

        So here is my restatement of the Vilanibbalism Hypothesis that I
believe answers all the objections raised to date, and matches the facts
I've just set out above:

       IMHO, in the very early days, I think that cannibalism almost
certainly had to have occurred on a pretty regular basis until a few bright
Vilani figured out how to process some of the less nasty local plant life.
However, it is doubtful that at least initially, the diet was ideal; enough
to support human life, but took a lot of energy to process or was lowish in
vitamins or you died at age 35 because your liver or brain got clogged with
alien proteins and stopped working.  And it probably tasted pretty
unpleasant to boot.  So I'd think that cannibalism would have continued to
happen; this coupled with a need to acquire control of resources (including
slave labour), would have driven certain groups to expand, and groups
benefitting from a long-pig supplemented diet would have had an advantage
in such expansions over groups that didn't.

        In passing, I think that my model of the early Vilani diet is much
more likely than the alternative, i.e. that the Vilani, after abandonment
by the Ancients, immediately developed a fully nutritious, complete and
100% balanced diet based on foods whose biochemistry was totally alien and
which in the natural state were toxic.


        Meanwhile, the relative scarcity of long pig, and the quest for a
gruel that didn't taste like spiced formaldehyde, would have driven the
Shugilli to keep on experimenting; one doesn't become an expert
toxicologist/organic chemist/nutritionist overnight.  They would have
continued to improve the local food menu.  And since the Vilani didn't
carry any disease pathogens, the kuru/mad cow situation did not arise.

        As they began forming small states, they would would also have
begun encountering the social problems associated with statehood; larger
populations and the concomitant increase in crime and deviance that this
brings.  So, aside from putting their neighbours on the table, they also
began to feed on their criminals and deviants (thus bringing about the
well-known Vilani "the group comes first" orientation; model altruistic
citizens don't get eaten).  Eventually, as states grew, absorbed one
another and reached the point where long pig needs could no longer be met
by external wars, and crime was dropping because of deterrence and
elimination of recidivism, long pig became increasingly expensive.  By this
point, the Shugilli would have managed to assemble a menu that although
still vile-tasting, was much improved, and that could sustain humans
without resort to long pig.  Cannibalism would become much rarer,
continuing probably for taste reasons among the upper classes.

       However, in the meantime, it would have served as a psychological
incentive to innovate technologically (better-armed and equipped groups
rarely get eaten) and to expand (dominant groups are the ones doing the
eating; therefore you want to be the dominant group in your neighbourhood).
So, the extremely rapid Vilani technological advance and their drive to
subjugate the rest of Charted Space are explained: psychological and
cultural hangovers from cannibalism.

        So, I think I've got the objections (food chain, closed system,
kuru/mad cow) covered here, IMHO.  I can still make a case for
vilanibbalism and do so in a way that a) matches the "historical facts" and
b) explains Vilani conformism/communitarianism, their rapid technological
advance, and their drive for conquest.

        **************REALITY CHECK***************

        My god I can't believe I'm still doing this :).  I'm behaving like
a philosophy prof and spending my morning fiercely debating unprovable
elements of a totally fictional fact situation :).  Seriously, folks, I
think that given the state of our "knowledge", this baby is unprovable one
way or the other (although I still think Vilanibbalism more likely than the
alternative; it fits too nicely).  So this whole discussion, although
amusing, is getting increasingly silly and pointless...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #873
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 874



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Suppression Fire
Mailing list Issues
Re: Suppression Fire
Re: IG Merc/SAS entry
Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions
Re: A new weapon for people - an idea
Re: Idea for IG to get rich
Re: Gridlore Technologies Delivers!
Gearhead Alert!!!!       Critical Ship Displacement Question
JTAS hits Germany!
re: Whither the dreadnaught?
Re: Mileau 0/First Survey screw-up
Re: Suppression Fire
Eurisko 
Re: Gearhead Alert!!!!       Critical Ship Displacement Question
Re: Whither the dreadnaught?
Re: possible T4 errata?
Re: Something else missing in T4
Traveller Integrated Timeline
Re: Whither the dreadnaught?  NO WAY!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 18:05 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Suppression Fire

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970120104236.29756B-100000@unixc.lancs.ac.uk>

<< Chatting to a friend on the phone last night I was reminded of the 
suppression fire rules in Shatterzone, makes for good firefights, 
keeping 
the enemies' heads down, testing their nerve by intimidation etc >>

I am reliably informed that suppression fire really does work, so decent 
rules would be nice.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:26:41 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Mailing list Issues

Well, we still are unsure of what caused the mailing lists to severely
backlog over the past couple of days.  It appears to be a complex
combination of bugs in Majordomo 1.94 and network instability at MAE-East
(between Sprint, MCI, and UUNET).

We took this chance to upgrade to Majordomo 1.94.1 which should address
several bugs.  As of this morning, all of yesterdays backlog was flushed
except for sites that were having problems today.  Tuesdays backlog is
still being worked on and those messages should get out today.

I apologize for the less than normal performance over the past couple of
days.  I suspect that as our number of lists grow, normal response time is
going to slow down somewhat, but it should never get to a crawl like we
have seen over the past couple of days.

Any way, we are going to keep an eye on it and keep our fingers crossed.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 18:05 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Suppression Fire

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970120104236.29756B-100000@unixc.lancs.ac.uk>

<< Chatting to a friend on the phone last night I was reminded of the 
suppression fire rules in Shatterzone, makes for good firefights, 
keeping 
the enemies' heads down, testing their nerve by intimidation etc >>

I am reliably informed that suppression fire really does work, so decent 
rules would be nice.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 18:05 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: IG Merc/SAS entry

In-Reply-To: <199701201544.HAA21054@mom.hooked.net>

<< <comments re: SAS snipped>

Many SpecWar operators I know are very wary of the books you mention.  
The general feeling is that the author was pumping up his own crest to 
get attention after the Army failed to acknowledge his incredible feat 
of getting caught by awarding him the VC or something. >>

From what I can tell, the ones by Andy McNabb (B2Z etc) are pretty 
reliable, and fairly unbiased. A lot of the ones that followed can 
safely be ignored.

The MoD has just decided to ban ex-members who've written about their 
experiences from visiting the Regiment in future.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:53:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Peculiar Jump Drive Questions

Hi.

> From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>

> You make some good points, but we don't know what the relative velocities 
> of two star systems are. Sure, we could make it up, but then there's the 
> work of converting from one to another.

Relative speeds between starsystems tend to be on the order of 50 km/sec
or so. This means that a 1G free trader will have to spend 1-2 hrs
matching velocities either before or after jump. Not a big deal, most of
the time.

Note that planetary orbital speeds are typically of the same order.

> 
> Since we're changing universes, going from normal-space to jump-space, I 
> don't feel the need to stick to Isaac Newton's or Descartes', or even 
> Einstein's frame of reference. For simplicity's sake, in my game 
> jumpspace automatically transforms your reference frame to be based upon 
> the nearest gravity well. This is jumpspace. Momentum is irrelevant. 
> Physics is irrelevant. Resistance is futile.
> 
> What exactly are the ramifications of ignoring the law of conservation of 
> momentum in this case? What kind of hairy paradoxes does it invoke? Am I 
> truly out to lunch here?

Well, the hairy paradoxes you get are no worse than the ones you get
from other Traveller voodoo technologies. If you want to play this way,
that's fine with me. But I don't think your rules jibe with canon;
whether you care about this is, of course, entirely your business.
 
> <Glenn applies a liberal dose of Flame-Garde (tm)>

I hope my post didn't come off as a flame. It was merely an unsolicited
physics lesson. 8^)

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:31:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: A new weapon for people - an idea

On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Colin Hollands wrote:

> I have no way of working this out, as i have none of the books people keep
> mentioning such as 3G3 (BTW what the hell does 3G3 stand for).

	Guns, Guns, Guns 3rd Edition
 
> Here is my out line for a laser rifle that could be made now i.e. AD1997,
> it would be nice for people to tear it to shreds and tell me why it could
> or couldn't work.
> 
> As far as i can see the only thing stopping us having laser weapons at the
> moment is not having a power source strong enough to supply the power, i
> think this is bulshit, 
> 
> My weapon would look a bit like a semi auto shotgun but instead of loading
> it with buckshot cartridges load it with high charge capacitors, each
> capacitor supplies one shot, there may or may not be enough energy released
> in the discharge to trigger a brief burst from the laser to be of use, once
> discharged the capacitor is ejected exactly like the shotgun cartridge.

	This isn't too far out of line. TNE had chemical cartrige lasers
which were essentially what you describe, but IIRC they were mostly quite
large, vehicle or tripod mounted weapons.

	The problem with carrying a bunch of capacitors around with a huge
charge is on itty-bitty hit on your capacitor supply and you go
Ka-BOOM....all that energy goes out very quickly.

	Second, while capacitors can store a charge for a very long time,
in practical terms, such high charges can only be stored for a
moment...what the power pack does in classic Trav lasers is charge the
capacitor for the laser which then fires.


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 18:05 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Idea for IG to get rich

In-Reply-To: <memo.561567@cix.compulink.co.uk>

<< << THis gives me an idea for IG - they should allow people to buy 
systems and have them named after them! I wonder if First Survey have 
gone to the printers yet... >>

This has been suggested before, and I think it's an excellent idea. If 
the 'owner' then writes up 'their' system, then it's even better.

A slight variation on the idea, how about IG selling Imperial Noble 
titles? Say, $50 for a Baron, $500 for a Duke (with modifiers for the 
desirability of the area governed). >>

Actually, thinking about this in bed last night (yes, I agree, that is 
really sad...), we could take it further. For a start, titles could be 
awarded as competition prizes, and for 'services to Traveller'. Second, 
it could work almost like a vast PBM, with Nobles making trade 
agreements, marriages between families, feuds, etc - PCs could even 
interact with the 'real' Nobles! JTAS could publish details of births, 
deaths, ennoblements etc, with contact details for the 'Player'.

Thoughts? 

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:36:19 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Gridlore Technologies Delivers!

At 10:06 AM 1/23/97 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>you mentioned something about 'pre-orders'...I wanna I wanna I wanna!!!!

Just stuff Cr 10,424 in small bills into an envelope and mail it to: Sir
Arameth Gridlore, aboard the Starship "Estimated Profit".  We're using the
same distribustion system that IG used for the hardbacks, so it'll be a while..

>There are a number of links to sites about stuff like .50 cal rifles,
>pistols, etc (yes there is a .50 BMG pistol...it's about the size of a
>small carbine, but technically it is a pistol:-0

Nice page.  I've fired the IMI .50 Desert Eagle, and wore a wrist brace for
about two weeks after!  My personal fave is the ood ol' M1911A1 .45 auto.

>University of Arizona

I know a lady who moved to Arizona just so she could walk the streets with a
.44M in a quick draw holster.. Leslie Fish, for the fannish out there.


+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:57:16 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Gearhead Alert!!!!       Critical Ship Displacement Question

>From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
>Subject: Whither the dreadnaught?

> 30,000 displacement tons is only a little bigger than the USS Nimitz,
> but not quite enough to qualify as stargoing-dreadnaught size, at >leas tnot in my imagination. I picture these things as massing at least
> 100,000 tons and perhaps sevral times that, each requiring the >resources of several systems to assemble & maintain. Empire hath its >privelages,and one of them is an economy of scale.
> Without disagreeing with your conclusions, I seem to recall that the >Nimitz was roughly 30kt in earth water displacement.  Converted to >Traveller 13.5m^3 tons, it comes a bit closer to 2kT in Traveller >terms. If I have the displacement wrong, apologies.


I am not sure about these numbers.  Have you done volume/mass
calculations?   My brother, the scientist of the two of us, has done
calculations on the size/displacement of large Traveller ships.  He has
found MAJOR problems with ship size(Traveller in general.)  

The problem is the cube term.  As ship size lengthens, the volume goes
up roughly as the cube(obviously not directly.)  This gives a ship like
a Sylea 200,000 ton or a 750,000 ton dreadnought as depicted in MT
Fighting Ships a much smaller size than the artwork shows.  With current
ship sizes, Traveller's art has not depicting the correct ships.

My understanding, garnered from my bro, is that the Nimitz is about
75,000 tons.  That is the size of a 75,000 ton Planet Class cruiser. 
(For a depiction see Dave Golden's page under Naryanganjo Corridor.)

To get Star Wars size ships, the displacements must be on the order of
1- 30 million tons, for a conical/wedge configuration of 2km length.
Comparisonwise, a Star Destroyers is supposed to be 1km in length.

Feel free to comment on this-I need accurate and crosschecked info
before I go designing 1-30 million ton ships.  If need be I'll contact
my  brother, but he is currently at sea.

Tom Lane

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:07:03 +0100 (MET)
From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Subject: JTAS hits Germany!

Hi everyone!

Today issue #25 of JTAS was delivered and I like it quite a lot.  It
arrived just in time to prevent me from unsubscribing from this list and
forgetting about Traveller (since AA and CSC have not reached my local RPG
store there is not much to keep me interested). 

Actually I like the looks and the contents of the magazine quite a bit.  I
believe that someone stated that the magazine is about the quality of a
typical SOTK publication but I really believe that it looks a lot better.
SOTK magazines (I usually read the Earthdawn journal) don't look that
slick and are somewhat rougher around the edges if you get my meaning.

I also miss the things that others already have commented on (e.g. a
column with some inside information from the designers about their work,
their plans, the thought processes that went into the creation of a
product, etc. would be very nice).  The illustrations on pages 37 and 48
are a bit... well... mediocre but all the others are wonderful.  The maps
are a little rough but it seems that Ashe Marler is slowly (very slowly)
learning to use his software.  Without having read the magazine I'd give
it a 7 out of 10.  Good work.  

I'm quite surprised at myself that I'm now looking forward to CSC and M0,
but they got me interested once more :-)

Thomas Biskup.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 97 12:54:26 MS
From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@Avalon.COM>
Subject: re: Whither the dreadnaught?

ericno @ MICROSOFT.com (Eric Nolan) wrote:
> There is no good reason to build dreadnaughts. .  . and there never
> was.  Even in the days of High Guard it was more efficient to have 
> smaller (10-50 kTons rather than 100+ kTons) ships.  You got more 
> bang for your buck.

I have to disagree with this statement.  This has been a long-prevalent 
Traveller myth, that the bigger ships were a waste of money.  The reality was 
that they were not cost-effective in High Guard/TCS matches.  The difference 
being that High Guard/TCS matches had a specific scenario and goal, and had no 
other factors involved.  Thus, you could get away with a ship design that was 
very cost effective in terms of bang for the buck, but served no logical "real" 
world function.  

For example, the famous EURISKO designs included a number of ships with one 
carried fighter (a mini-Battle Rider, really).  This set of designs did great 
in the TCS tournaments against other ships designed under similar constraints, 
but in reality a fleet is expected to serve many roles.  The Eurisko design 
might do well when attacking a similar squadron, but it could not transport 
Marines or land them on a hostile world, provide fire support for such a 
landing, or use clouds of fighters as a sensor screen around an interdicted 
world.  The Eurisko squadron would also not stand up to a 8-10 ship Battle 
Squadron of more "canon" Fighting Ships designs, simply because the EURISKO 
squadron was badly outspent, outgunned and outmanned.

Bigger ships do deliver a good "bang for the buck," but a lot of that bang is 
intangible in terms of your average TCS tournament.  An Empress-class 
battlewagon provides more than just ship-to-ship firepower; she can serve as a 
command ship, carry invasion troops, serve as a carrier and (perhaps most 
importantly) serve as a means of "Showing the Flag."

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:12:55 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Mileau 0/First Survey screw-up

On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Susan M. Shock wrote:

>         I am not even upset about the delay, if it results in the products
> being of the finest quality. In fact, IG might want to consider slowing down
> thier release schedule to every other month, to give more lead time for
> catching errors like this. Mistakes happen, but they can be corrected if
> spotted in time.

Actually, the plan is to send each work to Marc on a chapter-by-chapter 
basis for his review, as the chapters are completed.  That way, he's not 
given 117 pages a few days before it's supposed to go to the printer.  

Now that Marc's involved, and they're bringing on professional editors, 
typesetters, and graphic designers, I'm confident that they can maintain 
their production schedule, while at the same time keeping product 
quality at the highest level.


>         It make sense for 1997 to be the Year of Traveller...20 years since
> the game's original release...and the re-release of the movie which helped
> inspire it's initial popularity...the pieces are all in place!

Precisely. ;)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:57:22 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Suppression Fire

>From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
>Subject: Re: Suppression Fire
> 
>Supressive fire is what fire combat is all about. Shooting at your enemy to
>make him duck or run for cover and therefore hindering him in accomplishing
>his goal.
>  
>Make PCs and NPCs alike roll morale each time they are fired at with
>weapons that can penetrate their armour. If they fail their roll the PCs
>will go prone, run for cover as appropriate and the PCs should have an
>initiative penalty that will make them do the same. These rules can be
>extended to melee combat as well. The reason so few get get killed in
>combat is that they will rather flee than stand and fight if the enemy
>seems to have an advantage.
>   
>My system has used rules like this for the past 6 yeras and when we started
>using them we noticed a dramatic reduction in the number of NPCs and PCs
>that got killed.

I don't know how well that corresponds with real life.
Perhaps for trained and experienced infantry, yes.
But I know for a fact the #1 failure of un-tactics-trained
people or people who panic or forget their training in gunfights
(police, criminals, individuals defending themselves, etc. in the US)
is failing to seek cover and merely firing from where they were when
the incident started.  Any combat shooting tactics course will emphasize
training to go for cover before or as responding with a weapon,
and even some people who've gone through those courses and train
that way don't do it in real gunfights.  Too many people get what's
called "tunnel vision" and concentrate on one or few attackers and
shooting to the exclusion of doing anything but shoot back themselves.


- -george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:59:23 -0800
From: bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: Eurisko 

 I was wondering if anyone out there knew where I could find a copy of the
aforementinoed design?

 Thanks
bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:54:12 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Gearhead Alert!!!!       Critical Ship Displacement Question

Tom Lane wrote:

> > 30,000 displacement tons is only a little bigger than the USS Nimitz,

> My understanding, garnered from my bro, is that the Nimitz is about
> 75,000 tons.  That is the size of a 75,000 ton Planet Class cruiser.
> (For a depiction see Dave Golden's page under Naryanganjo Corridor.)

A "Ton" by any other name is still a ton...NOT!  

Folks, there are several terms all called "ton" that all mean something
different.  For example. . .

Mass tons:

	The Metric TON  =  2000 kg

	The Short TON  =  2000 lb

Displacement tons:

	The Traveller Displacement TON  =  14 stere (cubic meters)

	The Ship Register TON  =  100 cubic feet

There are others, but I don't have my references with me today.

Earth's sea going ships DO NOT use the Traveller Displacement Ton as a
unit of measurement.  My understanding is that the US uses the Ship
Register Ton.  It turns out that there are roughly 500 cubic feet in 14
stere (actually 494), and you can compare Traveller ship sizes to *real*
seagoing ship sizes by using a 5 to 1 ratio.

So, the USS Nimitz is about 80,000 Ship Register Tons, or about 16,000
Traveller Displacement Tons.  A 200 Traveller Displacement Ton Free
Trader, is compariable in size to a 1,000 Ship Register Ton Tramp
Freighter. A 10,000 Register Ton Cruiser would be listed as a 2,000 Ton
Traveller Cruiser.

A 30,000 Traveller Ton ship is a monster, with twice the volume of the
largest current warships.

A 200,000 Traveller Ton ship is the same size as a 1 million Ton
Supertanker.

If you want to compare ships from one game to another...or to real world
ships then you have to make sure you are using the same terms when you
make the comparisons.

BTW, you mentioned SW ships that are 2,000 meters in length.  Here are a
couple of approximations for ships of that size.

If we assume they are long thin cylinders, say 20x1, then your
dimensions would be:

Length: 2000 meters

Width:  100 meters diameter (width)

Volume: Length * (pi * r^2)  =  2000 * (3.14159 * 50^2) = 15,707,950
stere

Traveller Tons:  1,121,997 dt

If we assume they are triagular wedges say with, a base of 400m, a
length of 2000m, and a constant height of 20m then the dimensions would
be:

Length: 2000m

Width:  at stern, 400m; at nose, 0m

Height: 40m

Volume : 1/2base*length*height = 200*2000*40 = 16,000,000 stere

Traveller Tons:  1,142,857 dt


Help me, I've been infected with the "gearhead" virus!  I've started to
design and I can't stop!!!! <g>


Eris

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:36:22 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Re: Whither the dreadnaught?

> From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@Avalon.COM>
> Subject: re: Whither the dreadnaught?
> Date: Thursday, January 23, 1997 11:54 PM
> 
> ericno @ MICROSOFT.com (Eric Nolan) wrote:
> > There is no good reason to build dreadnaughts. .  . and there never
> > was.  Even in the days of High Guard it was more efficient to have 
> > smaller (10-50 kTons rather than 100+ kTons) ships.  You got more 
> > bang for your buck.
> 
> I have to disagree with this statement.  This has been a long-prevalent 
> Traveller myth, that the bigger ships were a waste of money.  The reality
was 
> that they were not cost-effective in High Guard/TCS matches.  The
difference 
> being that High Guard/TCS matches had a specific scenario and goal, and
had no 
> other factors involved.  Thus, you could get away with a ship design that
was 
> very cost effective in terms of bang for the buck, but served no logical
"real" 
> world function.  

You've all missed the *real* reason why you *Have* to have *really* bid
ships. They're ACVs ("Admiral Carrying Vessels") -- can you imagine an
Admiral being satisfied with the quarters that are likely to be available
aboard even a specially fitted out Cruiser?

And this is not being entirely smart alecky either -- Admirals require
large numbers of staff officers and related specialists -- and specialist
facilities for *them*. In other woirds, *BIG* ships are not really intended
for Combat per se, they are Squadron/Fleet Command vessels capable of
carrying large numbers of non-combat personnel and lots of C3I stuff
(Command, Control, Communications and Intelligence).

So there'll always be DNs.

Phil

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:28:12 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: possible T4 errata?

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 09:39 PM 1/22/97 -0700, Dave Golden wrote:
 
>Or possibly even the Air Force Academy (aka Denver Day Care Center for
> Delinquent Youths). AFAIK, it's possible for a graduate of one  >academy to choose to be commissioned into a different service, although >only a few each year do so. I've worked with Naval Academy guys who >decided they didn't want to go to sea or some such, and chose Air Force commissions.
> It would be extremely unusual for a refugee from the Colorado >Institute for the Investigation of Prolonged Expouse to Low-02 >Enviroments (aka Brain-Damage High), to become a Marine.  USAFA doesn'r >begin to provide the training in combatives that even USNA does.
 
Doug,

You are absolutely right.  As a representative of that esteemed mountain
resort, I can tell you straight up that the training isn't there to kick
someones butt on a continuous basis.

However, several points.  I would have gone to the Marines in a
heartbeat if I could have gotten a pilot slot there (I looked into it
when I was a C2C.) I believe every troop should be a soldier all the
time, and know the finer points of the art.  Like how to shoot and kill
unarmed if necessary. Unfortunatly, my eyes were slightly less than
20/20, the Marine cutoff(and Navy too.)  All I got offered was NFO(Naval
FLight Officer), the guy in back.  USAF gave me the pilot slot, for
which I am eternally grateful.  And thats why most people go to USAFA.

Although I am definately not a monster in unarmed combat, (and do not
box my copilot on a routine basis,) I have probably killed more enemy
troops in  than most ground pounders have seen.  I use technology to
destroy the people that my government tells me to, from as far away as
possible with maximum lethal force.  I am a hiver.  

Hivers are mean-if you don't believe so, read up on the result of the
little conflict they had with the K'Kree.  The point is getting the job
done.

Now, who are the most powerful people on the planet:the burly SAS snake
eater killing Iraqis in the swamps(former) near Basra, or the pencil
neck geek studying for his EE class in a silo in North Dakota?  

One can kill in a heartbeat in 1000 nasty ways.  The other pushes a
button and our civilization ends. Just a thought.



Tom Lane-somewhere between ass-kicker and PNG  USAFA 88

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:18:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Something else missing in T4

On Wed, 22 Jan 1997 Shane.Dowling@deetya.gov.au wrote:

> On the page(sorry but don't have book with me at work) with the drawing
> of weapons it has an auto pistol but there are no stats for it where the
> other weapons are defined.  The SMG can use Auto pistol rounds and that
> is the only written  reference I have found of it.  I also find it a bit
> strange that the pistols are black powder or TL 10 or higher but the SMG
> TL5 can use auto pistol ammo but at what TL does the auto pistol appear.

I would imagine all references to "Auto Pistol" should be changed to 
"cP-003 Pistol."  Just a guess.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:18:01 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@csci.csc.com>
Subject: Traveller Integrated Timeline

In preparation for starting work on the MegaTraveller material, I am looking
for a good list of all GDW MegaTraveller products...

Thanks! 

Don McKinney
- --
============================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,           (217) 351-8250 x2365 = 
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL       dmckinne@csci.csc.com =
= Winter War XXIV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 14-16, 1997 =
= Official Kibitzer and Archivist for Digest Group Publications            =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org       (217) 469-9917 = 
============================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:55:32 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Whither the dreadnaught?  NO WAY!

Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:
> 
> ericno @ MICROSOFT.com (Eric Nolan) wrote:
> > There is no good reason to build dreadnaughts. .  . and there never
> > was.  Even in the days of High Guard it was more efficient to have
> > smaller (10-50 kTons rather than 100+ kTons) ships.  You got more
> > bang for your buck.


Ask any Navy or Air Force driver what type of ship they'd rather attack
in the real world:  a light frigate or an AEGIS cruiser(usually
neither-ships is BAD.)  I go for the frigate if I had a choice.

The problem is that Traveller does not adequately simulate the
differences between small and big ships.  The amount of firepower a
dreadnought should be able to put out is MINDBOGGLING.  Ever been
barraged by 10,000 hadronic tipped missiles at a shot?  I'll bet a
EURISKO can't do that.
  
The one/two spinal mount limit is also wrong.  It is a game rule.  As
long as the mounts are put along the spine of the ship you should be
able to mount as many as you can fit.
  
Power is another item.  Big ships have lots of reactors.  Compared to 2
on an old chopped up US cruiser I am a bit familiar with, the big
carriers have 8+ nuclear reactors.  That is a lot of power to put not
only into spinal/bay/turrets but also into your sensors.

And there is the rub-where are the sensors of a ship in Traveller-in
cute little arrays?  No- the ENTIRE HULL is the sensor.  Bigger hull
equals better resolution equals deader enemies.  And big ships don't do
it alone.  They link with other ships in the fleet to become one large
sensor array and fire control grid.  He who has the better computers has
a distinct edge.

Look as US carrier battlegroup for further info.  Travelller is great,
but the issue of how the Imperial Navy really works has NEVER been
adequately addressed.  The game system was designed around the small
ship, and just doesn't model the scale of efficiency that comes with
size.

I am quite eager to hear any rebuttals, as my brother and I are in the
process of addressing this area.  Anybody interested?

Tom Lane

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #874
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 875



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Good News for Traveller!
Re: aargh, this is poor
Re: Vilani and Long Pig
Re: Good News for Traveller!
Re: Jump Drives/Space
Re: Traveller Movie?
Re: E-Circuit
the new books, biblophile comments
Re: A new weapon for people - an idea
Re: 3G3/2300
Re: Gearhead Alert!!!!       Critical Ship Displacement Question
Re: Ringworld RPG
Re: Jump Drives/Space
Re: Melee weapons
Re: Gearhead Alert!!!! Critical Ship Displacement Question
Re: Gearhead Alert!!!!       Critical Ship Displacement Question
Re: Suppression Fire
Re: Good News for Traveller!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:09:45 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Good News for Traveller!

On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> This what should have been happening all along!  It also explains much about
> the Reign of Error.  No offence to Ken whitman, but I was appaled by the
> thought that Marc Miller was approving of what was happeing.  Now I know he
> didn't even see it.  Amazing...  

Yup, now Marc will see each work chapter-by-chapter, as it is written.  
Comprehensive feedback from the visionary and creator behind Traveller 
can only improve things enormously, IMO.

> I truely considered 325 a test run, and actually got more than I expected.
> I'm about to send of my first few submissions.. anybody else?

Yes, please, everyone send submissions! :)  Let's flood Jean Rabe with 
submissions from TMLers! :)


> You know, I really need to hear more about this before I join.. I'd love to
> get Arameth Gridlore "registered" (he'd howl with fury at the thought), but
> I want to know exactly what i'm getting for my $15.

Hopefully, the details will be worked out an announced within the next 
month.  Hold on tight; it promises to be worth the wait (as we've all 
learned, it's better to take the time up-front than to rush something 
along just to get it out the door).


> YES YES YES!!!  Might I suggest someplace near a major NASA facility or
> astronomy program?  It might be fun to tour Huntsville with a bunch of TMLers..

Oooh.  That would be very cool.  All I'm hoping is that it's not too far 
away from where I live...or at least that it's held during one of the air 
fare wars. =)



> Does this mean the end of the Foss era?  Perhaps getting some talented new
> (as in just starting out) artists in? 

I have no official word on whether Foss will continue to have a role in 
Traveller.  All I can say for sure is that all these changes will take 
time, and may indeed be phased in over the next several supplements (not 
including M0/First Survey, which (as mentioned previously) are already at 
the printers and almost ready to be bound).  And, remember, Ken 
Whitman mentioned a while back that there are some Foss pieces (both B&W 
and color) that were done specifically for Traveller supplements that are 
upcoming.


> So far I heartily approve of the new website.  It's informative, fun and

Yup, David Bullock is doing a wonderful job.


> growing!  The map sounds beautiful.. I can't wait to see a star labeled
> "Duck's Traveller Gateway".  Thought: Will the sites on the Web Ring be
> linked by X-boat routes?

Hum.  Dunno!  Maybe David Bullock can step in and let us know (if, in 
fact, a decision has been made on this)?


> If GenCon happens.. evidently T$R is in big trouble.. but that's another
> story.  Is IG interested in having demo teams?  I wiil work for t-shirts and
> playtest copies!  now I just need to figure if I can make GenCon this year.

Well, since I've already pre-registered for GenCon, it'd darned well 
better happen. =)  And, not to spark a usenet-style debate, but I think 
TSR is going to be able to handle whatever difficulties it has; it's more 
like IBM (which was widely reported as being down for the 10-count a few 
years ago but now things look rosy for the computer giant) than, say, 
Atari or Commodore. [G]


> Tim Brown is a name I trust.  If I could pass one message to IG, it would be
> Do It Right.  I was willing to wait months for the Regency Sourcebook, and
> was not disapointed, so if it takes a few weeks to make sure the product is
> good, take it!

That's the lesson that has been learned in the last 6 months.  We've seen 
some changes already (shipping methods, the web site, CSC and Aliens, 
just to provide a few examples), and they have a lot more planned.  By 
the time GenCon rolls around this year, IG will have a solid line-up of 
more than a dozen products, all produced to the highest degree of 
quality.  That's my humble prediction anyway. :)


> OK, another question: Will there be a bug-stompted edition of the T4 rules?

Yes.  The official word is ... "Eventually."  So, I have no official 
date for that.  But if it were me, I'd not announce a date for a version 1.1 
until I'd sold out of 1.0.  But that's just me. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:26:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: aargh, this is poor

In a message dated 97-01-23 11:54:51 EST,ccjoe writes:

>> Mark my words; 1997 will be the year of Traveller! :)
>
>Bad pun... really bad.
I believe the word you really want is wretched....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:38:54 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:39:37 -0500, rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch
Elliott)
>>Three problems.  One is that barely adequate food supplies are
>>not rare on the Earth either.  So if this reasoning were
>>correct we should be equally cannibalistic.

>        I think that there's a differenceargely incompatible
>biochemistries, remember...  This, IMHO, throws the Terran comparison off.
>You could have any number of situations: foods where the caloric profit
>after processing was so minimal that most energy was simply spent on
>processing with little energy left over for anything else (and recall that
>experimentation could often be fatal),

This would cause the population to just plain die off.  It
make little difference if nutrition is scarce because food
is not nutritious enough or it can't be found at all.  In
either case the population will adjust to meet the available
nutritional resources.

>food where certain key nutrients
>were lacking, leading to malnutrition

If they are lacking, then they are lacking.  If they can be
synthesized in another member of your species, then they
can be synthesized in you.

>foods that were plenty nutritious,
>but led to a slow buildup of toxins in major organs, etc, etc.

But his kills off the people you want to eat.  If they
can survive in spite of this, then so can you.

>        Or start farming people, or applying the death sentence to
>increasingly minor crimes or types of deviance, or reserve the long pig
>supply to the upper classes, etc.

To farm people, they have to be able to survive.  That means
you can survive.  If you can survive, then you are no worse
off than any other group on Earth that has gone through
periods of poor nutrition.

>Lest you plead inhumanity, I can point
>to numerous 20th-century instances of group behaviour that were worse, and
>completely wasteful of good protein to boot...

OTOH, in human history cannibalism is _rare_.  People that will
engage in mass murder won't resort to it.  There is a huge
aversion to cannibalism that occurs in all social species
and results from the evolutionary undesirability of cannibalism.

More importantly, the fact is that since the Vilani have not
more reason to resort to cannibalism (see above) than humans,
what reason is there to believe it would be more common there?

>        Dude, have you got a reference for anticannibalism being "locked in
>genetically"?

Gee, I haven't seen any references on _either_ side. :-)  However,
just look at human history, as you yourself have pointed out,
humans are willing to do any number of horrible things a lot
more readily than they will
>I did my BA in anthropology.

And I have a pH. D. in Chemistry, would you automatically give
in to me on anything regarding the physical sciences regardless
of how strong my justifications were?  (I would hope not...)

Also, think back to your study.  What happens to a society
that faces shriking resources?  There population shrinks
to fit the available resources?  Can you cite a single
group in human history that was ever maintained even
a subgroup of a society via cannibalism?

>Current wisdom
>is that a lot of humanity's evolutionary success to date is simply that we
>*don't* have much behaviour "locking in genetically"; we constantly
>innovate, culturally speaking, and can adapt to almost any set of
>circumstances.  And some of the innovations we've come up with have made
>eating deviants, criminals, and POWs as a dietary supplement look like a
>Boy Scout badge project.

Yet we continue to be unwilling to engage in such acitivities
while persuing the others.  This just points to the strength
of the aversion to cannibalism.

>        And even if we have such a thing as a genetic predisposition to
>avoid cannibalism, it does seem to be programmed to break down when needed
>to survive, doesn't it..?

Well, if you look at people that have gone through starvation, it
usually doesn't break down.  However, in any case cannibalism
can't help a species survive over any significant time scale.

>        I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing in support of your
>alleged "fact" that cannibalism isn't good for social species 100% of the
>time is... but try and apply your arguments against slavery, or ethnic
>genocide.

Slavery doesn't reduce the number of the species.  Ethnic genocide
doesn't face the kind of aversion that cannibalism has.  As you
point out, humans are all to willing to engage in such practices,
but cannibalism of your enemies is very rare and never conducted
for nutritional benefit.

>        It didn't stop the Aztecs... and they were one of the more
>successful civilizations around until the Spanish showed up.  If you
>recall, they were sacrificing people by the tens of thousands to their
>gods.  While they weren't eating their sacrificial victims _wholesale_, it
>isn't much of a stretch...

Actually it is.  Murder of your tribe's enemies is not only easy, but
seems to be a natural action for humans.  However, cannibalism is
rare.  Why should it be any more common on Vland.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:05:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Good News for Traveller!

     Re-reading the list of upcoming changes/improvements in the production and
development and publicizing of Traveller, what strikes me most is the shock of
realizing that these things were not done from the start.  Did the folks at IG
really think that they could put out quality products without professional
layout and design people, and without consulting the man who's name goes above
the title?  Especially at the rate of one a month?  If so, I guess we're lucky
that they got behind schedule so quickly and realized their errors before we
got loaded down with a dozen rushed and shoddily produced supplemets instead of
three (plus the rulebook, which I didn't think was all that bad).  
     Assuming that all of the mentioned changes actually go through, and that
the professional production staff is compotent, we shouldn't have to worry
in the future, but the problem remains that we're still stuck with one
god-awful supplement and two more "well-intentioned rough drafts".  Are there
plans in the works for a sort of T4.1 to fix these early botches once the
professional crew is in place? (and, if so, are those of us who went out and
sunk our money blindly into the 1st eds going to get some sort of preferential
treatment or are they just going to say "ha, ha, that was a joke, now give us
$20 more for the REAL Starships book"?)
     As I've said before, I'm guardedly optimistic about the future, as long as
the changes actually affect a positive change (which I can't imagine they
won't), and the folks in charge are able to effectively get the word out that
1) Traveller is back and, by golly, it's pretty good! and 2) the first products
were a sort of test-experiment and future ones will be better.

Trent Smith

P.S.  Hearing that business about the non-matching sector data between M0 and
FS makes my skin crawl; thankfully that was spotted in time, otherwise that
quite possibly could have driven the final nail into the Traveller coffin
(which can hopefully go back into storage).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:12:18 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives/Space

Larry Hadley wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > >
> > > 7.  Requests for help via com laser from a needle-shaped transparent ship
> > > orbiting a ringworld. (Ringworld...anybody remember Chaosium?)
> >
> > Arrgh! I used to *own* a copy of that... I can't believe that I forgot it.
> 
>    Speaking of which...if _anyone_ has a copy of this game, let me know!

I have a copy of it and its supplements. What's up?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:50:23 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Movie?

Joseph E. Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> > I'm a memeber of this screenwriting list and I stumbled across this
> > today.  I have no idea if this is a real Traveller movie, or if it is
> > just a movie called Traveller.  But, it caught my attention because
> > the name "Traveller" used two l's.
> 
> Nah, it's not our Traveller.  Someone just used the British spelling of
> the word in the title of that movie.
> 
> > >     Of the forty-six scripts that have earned their writers
> > >     fellowships from
> > > 1986-1996, four have been produced.  Warren Taylor's IN THE DARK as
> > > IN THE EYES OF A STRANGER (CBS-TV), Radha Bharadwaj's CLOSET LAND,
> > > Jim McGlynn's TRAVELLER (completed in 1996, awaiting release), Mark
> > > Lowenthal's WHERE THE ELEPHANT SITS (in the final stages of
> > > post-production).
> >
> > So, I've heard some talk that there may be a Traveller movie.  I
> > haven't heard any talk that the movie is already completed as stated
> > in this post.
> >
> > Does anybody know if this is the Traveller near and dear to our
> > hearts or just a movie named Traveller?
> 
> It's just a movie named Traveller; only Sweet Pea Entertainment has the
> rights to making a movie based on our favorite RPG, and that isn't it. :)

I work for an animation company, and I got the president (well, his secretary) interested in 
the idea of Traveller as a cartoon. Unfortunately, I haven't heard back from them (sweetpea) 
in a while. Maybe if this list expressed its interest in such a project, things would get 
moving again. I cannot guarantee that this would work, but I can guarantee that I will try my 
hardest to get this going

Hoping for the best....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:46:32 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: E-Circuit

Hugh Foster wrote:
> 
> >> Maintenance is handled by a device called an  Eternity
> Circuit from Paranoia Press's Merchants & Merchandise. <<
> 
> Aaargghh!!! I remember it well! I'd never allow it in my
> game, though. If your ship is shot down, it re-creates it
> magically. The old Collapsium armour/invulnerable 97th
> level Paladin strikes again!

Well, not quite. The ref ruled (and I kept to his ruling)
that at least 25% of the original object had to be
undamaged. Then there's the time requirement for the
rebuild based on the amount of damage. Rather than, say,
8d6 days for heavy damage, the ref changed it from days
to weeks and made the device use *any* molecules in
reach, not just free molecules. We actually lost a PC
during experimentation with the device when he got a
little too close. Since even light damage would take
1d6 *weeks* to repair, the device was rarely used; we
just couldn't afford to be without a ship for that
long.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:23:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: the new books, biblophile comments

>GENERAL:  These IG books are WAY overpriced.  I don't know if they're
getting
>screwed by their printers or are making up for small print runs or what,
Three things that determine a books price:
1-Small print run-Exactly right, the only cure is to spread the word and make
Traveller the hot publishing property it deserves to be. Or use the threat of
physical violence to force people to buy.(Not recommended) 
2-Extras in the book itself-Extras like glossy covers and colour plates. Ask
yourself if you really need a colour section, then respond to the publisher.
Most of them have web sites. The publishing industry has been promising lower
costs for illustrations and plates for ten years now, we should live so
long.....
3-What the market will bear-We as Travellers will just have to stop buying
products until they concede to our demands. AS IF!

Seriously, spreading the word and feedback to the publisher are the way to
keep costs down. I don't think prices will drop, but perhaps they will hold
steady. And before you curse the owner of your FNGS, the markup on books and
printed materials is just about the worst there is in the world of retail,
about 40%. As opposed to clothing (200%-400%) or jewelry (300%-800%). People
do have to make a living.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:59:35 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: A new weapon for people - an idea

Colin Hollands wrote:
> 
> I have no way of working this out, as i have none of the books people keep
> mentioning such as 3G3 (BTW what the hell does 3G3 stand for).
> 
> Here is my out line for a laser rifle that could be made now i.e. AD1997,
> it would be nice for people to tear it to shreds and tell me why it could
> or couldn't work.
> 
> As far as i can see the only thing stopping us having laser weapons at the
> moment is not having a power source strong enough to supply the power, i
> think this is bulshit,
> 
> My weapon would look a bit like a semi auto shotgun but instead of loading
> it with buckshot cartridges load it with high charge capacitors, each
> capacitor supplies one shot, there may or may not be enough energy released
> in the discharge to trigger a brief burst from the laser to be of use, once
> discharged the capacitor is ejected exactly like the shotgun cartridge.
> 
> Ok this is now open for ridicule, but if anyone wants to spec a Milleu 0
> version it would mean you don't have a bloody great power pack on your
> back, but you dont have as many shots.
> 
> Lets see you chew on this one.

Gnaw, gnaw, gnaw...hmmmm, tasty

BTW, the list generally does not flame you because you post. I would hope that comments 
and criticisms are taken in context (yeah, I know, I should talk...I sort of flipped a long time 
ago because I was unused to the etiquette of netspeak and ordinary statements seem very 
hostile)

Seriously though, the US Army has  laser rifle now. It can only be used for blinding 
attacks, but the neat thing is the only defence is to close your eyes and keep them closed. It 
can rapidly cycle through various freqs to counter polarized lenses.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:40:05 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: 3G3/2300

>  Does anyone know if there ever was a Guns! Guns! Guns! to 2300
>conversion?

It doesn't look like it, the original did MegaTraveller and TW:2000 though.

		Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast          |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer            |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing   |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                      |

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:06:18 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Gearhead Alert!!!!       Critical Ship Displacement Question

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> Folks, there are several terms all called "ton" that all mean something
> different.  For example. . .
> 
> Mass tons:
> 
>         The Metric TON  =  2000 kg
> 
>         The Short TON  =  2000 lb
> 

Well, I'll be the first. A metric ton is 1000 kilograms or 2200 Imperial
pounds.
All metric measurements are in powers of 10.



- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 97 22:54:26 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Re: Ringworld RPG

	
>Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:48:36 +0000 (GMT)
>From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
>Subject: Re: Jump Drives/Space
>
>On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> >
>> > 7.  Requests for help via com laser from a needle-shaped transparent
>ship
>> > orbiting a ringworld. (Ringworld...anybody remember Chaosium?)
>> 
>> Arrgh! I used to *own* a copy of that... I can't believe that I forgot
it.
>
>   Speaking of which...if _anyone_ has a copy of this game, let me know!
>
>

Heh heh... I've got a copy!  

Before you ask, no, it's not for sale.  

Okay, I was just bragging.  :)

Jeff

- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\      "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________
        odysseus@novia.net
  http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:20:51 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives/Space

> > > > orbiting a ringworld. (Ringworld...anybody remember Chaosium?)
> > >
> > > Arrgh! I used to *own* a copy of that... I can't believe that I forgot it.

I own a copy too.  

Tom Lane

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:10:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Melee weapons

In a message dated 97-01-22 19:54:29 EST,Pete threatens:

>By the end of this evening (by which I know you will not have read your
>mail), I intend to introduce you to the wonders of 57th century Strephon
>on Velvet Paintings.

Anything is better than those life-size hologenerated singing Strephons that
were out at Chistmas....
dsf
Pete-If you're a Big Howood Tree in the Big Howood forest.....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:18:51 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Gearhead Alert!!!! Critical Ship Displacement Question

Eris Reddoch writes:

>Help me, I've been infected with the "gearhead" virus!  
>I've started to design and I can't stop!!!! <g>

   First, great analysis.  Second, you do not have Gearhead Virus. 
Anyone with "gearhead" would have finished his or her demonstration with
a theoretical displacement for the Death Star (the original, not that
stationary gun platform in the third movie).

   I once speculated as to what *that* number might be, but then
regained my sanity.

Regards,

Harold

P.S. First, you'd need to know the diameter, after that, its a pretty
straightforward equation (volume of a sphere).  Of course there are all
the landing bays, laser turrets, and that Ultimate Spinal Mount....oops!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:50:50 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Re: Gearhead Alert!!!!       Critical Ship Displacement Question

>Earth's sea going ships DO NOT use the Traveller Displacement Ton as a
>unit of measurement.  My understanding is that the US uses the Ship
>Register Ton.  It turns out that there are roughly 500 cubic feet in 14
>stere (actually 494), and you can compare Traveller ship sizes to *real*
>seagoing ship sizes by using a 5 to 1 ratio.

Thank you Eris, you make a great point, that being,
   "A TON is not a TON is not a TON"

I had to jump in here cause it is one of the few things I know about. :)

Registry Tons actually varry from country to country, but here in the US it
is 100 Cu. Ft.

Just a side note to those of you who keep up, the company I work for could
build a 1,000 Reg Tn. ship in 9-12 months and that would be the same as a
200 dt Traveller ship.  As I've said before, I figure the times for the
future to be slightly less since we are talking about a much more detailed
desing and a completely enclosed hull.  Anyway, my formula figures the Free
Trader, the Yacht, the Safari, and the Far Trader all at 6m29d to 7m20d.
Unfortunately the Patrol Cruiser figures in at 4y5m12d and I'm not really
sure why. :)  I'm still working on it. :)

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 97 23:23:17 EST
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Re: Suppression Fire

- --- Andrew Boulton wrote:
I am reliably informed that suppression fire really does work, so decent 
rules would be nice.
- --- end of quote ---
No! Really? Lots of rounds spanging overhead and into the surrounding turf is
noticeable? Do Tell! ;->
Actually, one could think of sniper-fire as supp.fire in the minimalist sense:
all the excitement of 'the round with my name on it' with a lot less noise!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:37:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Good News for Traveller!

On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Trent Smith wrote:

>      Re-reading the list of upcoming changes/improvements in the production and
> development and publicizing of Traveller, what strikes me most is the shock of
> realizing that these things were not done from the start.  Did the folks at IG
> really think that they could put out quality products without professional
> layout and design people, and without consulting the man who's name goes above
> the title?  Especially at the rate of one a month?  If so, I guess we're lucky
> that they got behind schedule so quickly and realized their errors before we
> got loaded down with a dozen rushed and shoddily produced supplemets instead of
> three (plus the rulebook, which I didn't think was all that bad).  

I suppose I should very briefly re-iterate the evolution of IG for those who 
missed it in times past:

The group that was doing all of the work for T4 (from designing, to 
editing, to laying out, to selling, to shipping) are a different group 
than those who will be doing it in the months to come, with a few 
exceptions (Tim Brown, Greg Porter, et al).  Once upon a time, the game 
designers were running the business end; as of November 15, 1996 Sweet 
Pea Entertainment took over the business aspect and in essence became 
Imperium Games.  Tim Brown started running the shipping department, and 
doing overall project coordination.  And so on.

So, those mistakes of the past were made by a different set of people 
than the ones who are in charge now.  Yes, those mistakes should have 
never been made.  But, please keep in mind that we are seeing the new 
policies of a different organization that simply has the same name as the 
one before ("Imperium Games").  

I hope this helps explain why things are changing.  It's not that 
Courtney woke up one day and said, "Dang, I'm running this company into 
the ground."  [G]  It's more that, since Courtney took over the 
leadership of the company, he's been listening to us, the customers, as 
well as Marc and Tim, and putting into place the structures that will 
ensure that the pre-changeover mistakes never happen again.


>      Assuming that all of the mentioned changes actually go through, and that
> the professional production staff is compotent, we shouldn't have to worry
> in the future, but the problem remains that we're still stuck with one
> god-awful supplement and two more "well-intentioned rough drafts".  Are there
> plans in the works for a sort of T4.1 to fix these early botches once the

Yes, there are.  Starships is being re-written (with REAL deck plans, and 
SSDS-designed ships).  I've been told all of that will be freely 
available on the web site, as well as being included in a new version to 
be printed sometime in the future (don't ask me when, 'cause I don't 
know when they'll be doing a re-print).

T4.1 will be produced sometime in the future as well, as I've mentioned 
in another post today.  Comprehensive errata is maintained on the 
website, and will continue to be expanded as new errors and 
inconsistencies are found.


> professional crew is in place? (and, if so, are those of us who went out and
> sunk our money blindly into the 1st eds going to get some sort of preferential
> treatment or are they just going to say "ha, ha, that was a joke, now give us
> $20 more for the REAL Starships book"?)

Well, since they're making the new material freely available on the web 
site, I don't know that that would be necessary.  Of course, it would be 
a nice gesture on IG's part.  There's a location on the web site for 
sending feedback to IG.  Perhaps you should do that, and suggest it to 
them; it can't hurt.


>      As I've said before, I'm guardedly optimistic about the future, as long as
> the changes actually affect a positive change (which I can't imagine they
> won't), and the folks in charge are able to effectively get the word out that
> 1) Traveller is back and, by golly, it's pretty good! and 2) the first products
> were a sort of test-experiment and future ones will be better.

The idea is to first make the product line complete (it still needs M0, 
First Survey, a GM Screen, and Emperor's Arsenal to be a truly full-line 
product).  Then start printing up posters and flyers for distribution to 
game stores.  Then make a huge splash at GenCon '97.  That is, make the 
product as good as it can be, then make sure everyone knows about it. :)

BTW, yes, sales are very good even now.  Not just sales to distributors, 
but sell-through.  T4 itself is reordered heavily, multiple times, by 
distributors.  That means stores are selling out and reordering.  (Yes, 
it could be better; yes, there are places where T4 is a "shelf queen"; 
but sales are good now, and they will improve in the near future).


> P.S.  Hearing that business about the non-matching sector data between M0 and
> FS makes my skin crawl; thankfully that was spotted in time, otherwise that
> quite possibly could have driven the final nail into the Traveller coffin
> (which can hopefully go back into storage).

Right.  It's an example of the changes at IG.  First they fix the 
products that are in process.  Then they get better editing on the next 
products, and find someone to do better layout.  Then they bring on an 
artist to do book-specific art.  Then they ... well, you get the 
picture.  Like they say in all those Total Quality Management seminars, 
product improvement is a never-ending process.  T4 will just get better 
and better.

We've played a role in that improvement in the past, by providing 
feedback to Courtney on the _Starships_ product.  We can continue to help 
make T4 the best role-playing game (not just the best Sci-Fi Role-Playing 
Game; the best RPG _period_) by doing the following:

- -  Provide feedback to IG through their website.  They've got a tentative 
product schedule for 1997 there, and are asking for our comments.  Let 
them know what you want to see in those products!  Waiting until after 
the products are out won't be nearly as useful.

- -  Write articles for JTAS; submit art for JTAS.  If you don't, who 
will?

- -  Say good things about Traveller on the usenet, in game stores, and at 
conventions.

- -  Ask your FLGS owner if you can run a Traveller demo at his store; if 
s/he says yes, then do it!

- -  Run a Traveller game at a local convention, if possible.

- -  Most importantly, get some friends together and play!  If you don't 
have anyone local to you who wants to play, you can always start up a 
Play by eMail game, or run one on IG's IRC server.  If you need help 
learning how to do this, drop by the #traveller channel and ask; there 
are folks who frequent that channel who are experienced at running PBeM's 
and IRC games.

- -  Any other ideas for helping to make Traveller the most enjoyable and 
successful RPG of all time?


Marc Miller and Imperium Games will make T4 the best version of Traveller 
yet.  Let's help them wherever and whenever we're able.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #875
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 876



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Suppression Fire
Re: Good News for Traveller!
Re: #Traveller on IRC
Dreadnaughts considered harmful
Re: A new weapon for people - an idea
Re: Vilani and Long pig
Re: Early Vilani snack foods
Long Day's Journey: Skrunge
Long Day's Journey: Archipelago
Long Day's Journey... 
FSMOMAE "Gunchaku-2000"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 97 23:23:17 EST
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Re: Suppression Fire

- --- Andrew Boulton wrote:
I am reliably informed that suppression fire really does work, so decent 
rules would be nice.
- --- end of quote ---
No! Really? Lots of rounds spanging overhead and into the surrounding turf is
noticeable? Do Tell! ;->
Actually, one could think of sniper-fire as supp.fire in the minimalist sense:
all the excitement of 'the round with my name on it' with a lot less noise!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:19:50 -0500 (EST)
From: TBSVT@aol.com
Subject: Re: Good News for Traveller!

And all trav con Yes  but then put it in Huntsville I can see it now a bunch
of Tml Gearheads and others not on the list stay till they get kicked out the
door then a mass exodus to and I quote "a major NASA facility or astronomy
program?"  
(one stands up out of the group ) "behold my children the promised land"
but that aside I vote for this event come on everybody lets see some support!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 22:54:50 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: #Traveller on IRC

On 01/23/97 at 01:04 AM,  "Del Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com> said:

> I have seen with interest the postings from Suz Dollar et.
> al. about discussions on #Traveller. I was just wondering
> if it would be possible for transcriptions of these to be
> posted to this list (or separately to save TML b/w).

Yes, please!

In my case, it isn't the phone bill, or even the time of night that's my
problem.  It's that I work until 9pm Central Standard Time on Thursday
nights, so I'm not available when the Thursday night sessions take place.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:19:04 -0500
From: jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block)
Subject: Dreadnaughts considered harmful

Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net> wrote:
> The problem is that Traveller does not adequately simulate the
> differences between small and big ships.  The amount of firepower a
> dreadnought should be able to put out is MINDBOGGLING.  Ever been
> barraged by 10,000 hadronic tipped missiles at a shot?  I'll bet a
> EURISKO can't do that.

Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@Avalon.COM> wrote:
* world.  The Eurisko squadron would also not stand up to a 8-10 ship Battle 
* Squadron of more "canon" Fighting Ships designs, simply because the EURISKO 
* squadron was badly outspent, outgunned and outmanned.

But what happens if 50 trillion credits worth of EURISKOs goes up against
50 trillion worth of canon dreadnoughts?  How does the total broadside
compare?

Does anyone have the EURISKO squadron available online?  Before I run off
at the mouth (too much, anyway) I'd like to see the design specs on them.

> Power is another item.  Big ships have lots of reactors.  Compared to 2
> on an old chopped up US cruiser I am a bit familiar with, the big
> carriers have 8+ nuclear reactors.  That is a lot of power to put not
> only into spinal/bay/turrets but also into your sensors.

I don't see this as much of an issue - you design p-plants large enough for
your weapons/sensor load.

> And there is the rub-where are the sensors of a ship in Traveller-in
> cute little arrays?  No- the ENTIRE HULL is the sensor.  Bigger hull
> equals better resolution equals deader enemies.  And big ships don't do
> it alone.  They link with other ships in the fleet to become one large
> sensor array and fire control grid.  He who has the better computers has
> a distinct edge.

But you get a better sensor picture from two small arrays with a lot of
seperation that communicate with each other than you do with one bigger
array.  I don't recall the exact term, but it's the technique used in
astronomy when they have a bunch of tiny dishes rather than one big dish.

> Look as US carrier battlegroup for further info.  Travelller is great,
> but the issue of how the Imperial Navy really works has NEVER been
> adequately addressed.  The game system was designed around the small
> ship, and just doesn't model the scale of efficiency that comes with
> size.

Don't naval battlegroups coordinate defensive fire so that the whole group
engages incoming missiles?  I've always thought that that should be the
model for the next generation of traveller naval combat, since my players
always seem to bring it up.

JayStr <jaystr@best.com> wrote:
# The only rationale I can think of for the dreadnaught is station-keeping
# capability; simply put, bigger ships can carry more stuff, and can stay
# out there longer. A big enough ship can carry enough supplies to keep
# itself out there for a year or more, perform disaster relief, show the
# flag, carry out extended patrols, carry a small army in its belly for
# suppressing rebellious worlds, etc. -- and still mount a healthy
# offensive punch. I call this the 'system-control ship' concept; sort of
# a fleet-in-one. It's the difference between the Starship Enterprise and
# a U-boat -- one handles all sorts of useful errands, plus fleet combats.
# The other just sort of snoops around and blows things up. 

This argument falls apart - sure, a 30K cruiser is going to be able to
carry less cargo, but it needs less cargo as well.  Individual cruisers may
carry less troops/fighters/fill in the blank than a DN, but you don't
deploy them individually, you deploy them in squadrons.  As far as showing
the flag, the Navy doesn't send just the Nimitz somewhere, they send the
whole carrier group the Nimitz is in.

My personal design philosophy in HG (which was current the last time I
designed a bunch of ships) is to make a bunch of specialty ships, each as
small as practical - all other things being equal, I'd rather have 4 50Kton
carriers, each with 900 fighters than one 200Kton supercarrier with 3600,
for flexibility of deployment, even if I end up paying 10% more due to
redundant systems.  Sometimes, suboptimal as it may be, it becomes
strategically necessary to control two systems, and it sure is nice to be
able to send half the squadron.

Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

It isn't that Unix isn't user friendly, it's just selective about who it
wants to be friends with.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:30:27 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: A new weapon for people - an idea

> Seriously though, the US Army has  laser rifle now. It can only be used for blinding
> attacks, but the neat thing is the only defence is to close your eyes and keep them closed. It
> can rapidly cycle through various freqs to counter polarized lenses.


The systems are called dazzlers.  They have taken out pilots before, as
the Russians were fond of flashing nearby recon aircraft with them to
fry the pilots eyes.  Worked, but as far as I know the guys landed
safely.

Looking into a laser is like looking directly into the sun.  Of course
you don't see anything for a while after that.  Use of lasers against
personnel is illegal in the US Military, as far as I know.  

A blind pilot is a dead pilot

Tom Lane

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:30:56 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long pig

Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:17:31 +1300, Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Not so I'm afraid. Before contact with Europeans the
>NZ Maori regularly practised cannibalism. The practice
>was highly ritualised and restricted to enemies who
>had been defeated in battle (either as a mark of
>respect or lack of respect depending on which
>historian you read), but it was none the less a very
>real fact of the culture.   Most anthropologists agree
>the root cause was the lack of high protein sources
>native to NZ.

I find this dubious.  Ritual cannibalism is not
unknown, but it has little to do with nutrition.
Also, I don't see how NZ is lacking in protein
sources.  As you yourself point out, the
cannibalism had to with attitudes toward
enemies (for example, we eat them to show
they aren't human).  This is known in other
parts of the world.  OTOH, I can't see how
the protein idea could ever be more than
speculation.

>What does this show about the Vilani?

Well, in fact the point still remains either way
that the Vilani have no more reason to resort
to cannibalism than humans.

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:04:46 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Early Vilani snack foods

Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:42:19 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>>No, I said that the Vilani had no more reason to be cannibals
>>>than Terrans and there is no _more_ reason that it would be
>>>a part of their past than it was of ours.
>
>Let's just examine the *first* part of that statement a bit.
>
>I suggest that a study of the existing antropoligical and archeological
>record will show that cannibalism (if only ceremonial) not only
>*occured*, but was rather common in primitive cultures. *All* primitive
>cultures.

Ritual cannibalism has nothing to do with nutrition.

>The only "diseases" present on Vland would be some bacterial/fungal
>infestations where the organism was using the body as *food*. The
>earthly equivalents are athletes foot, various "yeast infections", and
>gangrene. Given the trouble the Vilani have making things edible, I'd
>say that such things would be relatively rare.

Actually, bacterial infection would no more rare on Vland than
on Terra.  At the level bacteria work at, if humans can live
on Vilani foods at all then bacteria can live on them.  Also,
viral infections would not unknown either.

>And given the lack of true pathogens, the types of "infections"
>described above would be easily defeated by simply washing regularly,
>and in the case of "infected" wounds, merely by reopening the wound and
>cleaning it with the one "antiseptic" known to primitive peoples....
>Urine! (No, I'm not kidding)

At primitive tech levels bacterial infections are just as
dangerous (even if viruses didn't exist).

>If folks don't want to go this way, that's fine. Just don't try to
>justify the decision with "facts" that aren't. :-)

Works both ways...

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:56:03 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Long Day's Journey: Skrunge

SKRUNGE System (abstract)

Primary: Rhonk (Class G5 Red Dwarf, Size II)

Mainworld: Skrunge (X465000-0)

Orbit Zone 8 (Habitable)
Axial Tilt 5=BA
Rotation period 918 standard hours 13 minutes
Year length 312 Imperial Days, 14 hours
Average temperature at equator -10=BA
Surface gravity .5 standard
Air pressure at sea level .77 standard
Native animal and plant life present in wide variety (largest known
predator approx. 40 kg)

        Skrunge is a small, old, dim world orbiting a G5 red dwarf, much of
whose radiation is towards the red and infra-red system.  Available survey
information, which is fragmentary and dates to IY -1900 (around the date of
the foundation of the Protectorate of Sylea) indicates that it is no longer
tectonically active.  Geologically, its relief, due to megayears of wind
erosion, is rather low and eroded.  Skrunge is becoming a smooth world.  As
it lacks any significant resources to be exploited, lies five parsecs off
the main trade routes, and is not blessed with a particularly salubrious
climate, to the knowledge of the IISS it has not been visited by humans
more than temporarily since the end of the Rule of Man.

        The most significant fact about Skrunge is its extremely long day;
it rotates once around its axis every 918 hours and 13 minutes.  Thus,
there are (roughly) only 7 days per year.  This has significant effects on
its weather patterns: night brings deep and cold winters, where
temperatures can plunge to -60=BA or worse at the equator; during the day,
they can reach approximately +40=BA.  Thus, the average temperature figure i=
s
deceptive.  It does not reflect seasonal variations, but rather daily
variations.  A typical day on Skrunge does not dawn; rather, it brings
clouds, snow and winds under a semi-permanent cold front along the sunrise
terminator as cold air rushes towards the day side, drawn in by a
semi-permanent low pressure area caused by insolation.  Naturally, these
effects are more pronounced in the tropical and equatorial regions; towards
the poles the weather patterns tend to be less predictable.  The poles are
permanently capped, although they naturally recede to a large degree during
the day; the subpolar regions are characterized by large runoff channels.

        The early morning snow rather quickly runs to rain, the
precipitation being fed by meltwater.  It dawns over flatlands broken only
by low hills and shallow, recently thawed sloughs.  Much of the land area
is swampy.  Taking advantage of the brief period of warmth and sunlight
(dim and ruddy as it is), the local life begins to emerge from hibernation.

        Throughout the midday, from the tropic to the temperate zones,
precipitation is rare, although occasionally weather systems do detach from
the semipermanent storms along the terminators and drop rain over the
noonday  regions.  By this time, plant life has carpeted the fertile areas,
and the herbivorous forms are harvesting it.

        Afternoon brings drought, as the surface water has evaporated from
almost all the deepest waterholes.  Plant life begins to wither, and many
animal life forms in the equatorial zones exhibit estivation responses as
the temperature rises towards 40=BA.  Late afternoon brings autumn rains,
which turns to snow in the evening.  Temperatures plunge rapidly after
sunset, which remains invisible from the surface in any event as a massive
semi-permanent blizzard redeposits water evaporated during the day on the
surface.  However, after 60 hours of blizzard, the skies have generally
cleared, and the stars look down over pure white snowfields frozen under
temperatures that dip to -60=BA at the equator and to -150=BA at the poles. =
 By
midnight the air is quite still and conditions remain ideal for stargazing
until morning.

        Skrunge is home to a wide variety of plant life, various parasitic
fungoids, and a number of animal life forms which are taxonomically rather
unique.  Most are herbivorous, although there are some filter feeders.
There are a few large predators, none of them weighing over 40 kg.  Many of
the animal life forms are low to the ground, huddled under heavy carapaces.
These seem to have evolved as much as protection against the wind as
against predators.  In general, the long Skrungian winter night has
directed evolution; many life forms simply freeze solid overnight and thaw
out in the morning.  Other burrow, some cluster, and some exhibit
combinations of all of these responses.  A variety of gestation strategies
have been noted.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:55:57 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Long Day's Journey: Archipelago

Archipelago System (abstract)

Primary: Vahine (Class G2 Yellow Dwarf, Size Ia)

Mainworld: Archipelago (B868793-7)

Orbit Zone 10 (Habitable)
Axial Tilt 15=BA
Rotation period 26 standard hours 34 minutes
Year length 402 Imperial Days, 3 hours
Average temperature at equator 29=BA
Surface gravity .97 standard
Air pressure at sea level 1.05 standard
Imported animal and plant life present in wide variety; land animals
limited, no large predators (largest known marine predator approx. 240 kg).
Most advanced native life forms are blue-green algae.

        Archipelago, as all Imperial citizens know, is a favoured vacation
destination for wealthy Imperial citizens.  Although possibly the most
pleasant and salubrious world in the Imperium, and blessed with gravity,
rotation periods, and sunlight approaching the Terran norm, its distance
from Sylea and Ordun (3 parsecs) required at least a month round trip time
until the advent of Jump-3.  This naturally imposed restriction on visits,
combined with certain other impediments imposed by the Archipelagan
government (see below) has kept much of Archipelago unspoiled.

GEOLOGY:

        Archipelago is a water world; approximately 80% of its surface is
covered by shallow, warm seas; the remaining land surface is composed of
long, crescent-like islands with high ridges forming their spines that are
remnants of impact craters.  Other islands are of volcanic origin;
Archipelago is a young planet, geologically speaking.  Small polar ice caps
are present.  Its minor axial tilt does induce some slight seasonal
variation in climate; however, this means that winter evenings in the
temperate zones are only slightly chilly; the oceans act as a heat sink,
limiting the range of temperature fluctuations.  Regular trade winds are a
notable feature of Archipelagan weather.  Coriolis storms in the lower
southern hemisphere can reach fairly significant proportions, as there are
no crater rim barriers to impede their progress; the northern hemisphere,
on the other hand, has several crater rims that provide natural
breakwaters.

HISTORY:

Although settled early in the First Imperium (and named Miiliik, after a
Vilani mythological figure), Archipelago's position slightly off the main
trade routes and relative lack of valuable resources kept it from becoming
heavily settled.  By the fall of the First Imperium, the population was
approximately 2 million, and the major industry was farming Xuukaah algae
for export.  This Vilani plant form escaped into the wild; it is thought
that it has displaced many native Archipelagan algae.

        This was to change when the Solomani burst upon the scene.
Archipelago's potential as a nature preserve was recognized; Terra's oceans
were becoming increasingly polluted and innumerable valuable species were
threatened with extinction.  After occupation and renaming, the algae
farmers were allowed to continue, but intensive ecological terraforming was
begun; the Rule of Man government began a program of introducing terran
plant and animal species, geneerered where neccessary.  Notable introduced
plant life includes numerous varieties of bamboo and palm trees, among
other Terran tropical vegetation.  Animal forms include krill, plankton,
corals, and algae, numerous fish species (including sharks), and several
forms of cetaceans.  The ecosystem did not stabilize immediately, but
careful monitoring and adjustment over the centuries by several ecological
stations has managed to smooth out the worst of the population fluctuations
although long-term chaotic fluctuations cannot be ruled out.

        As with the rest of Humaniti, the Archipelagans, both the
descendants of the Vilani algae farmers and the Solomani biologists, found
themselves cut off from the rest of the universe.  Obviously, their
continued survival, or at least maintenance of a decent quality of life,
was dependent upon creating and maintaining as diverse an ecosystem as
possible.  The work of the biological stations was continued.  Over time,
the Vilani and Solomani populations interbred.  By the time of recontact by
the Sylean Federation in the middle of the Long Night (-900), the agency
responsible for running the biological stations, the United Worlds
Ecological Transplantation and Preservation Agency (or UWETPA), had assumed
governmental functions.  Seeing advantage in encouraging limited tourism;
the Agency, as it had become known, began opening resorts and expanded its
aquaculture activities for export.  This furnished it with the foreign
exchange necessary to purchase needed technology and raw materials.  This
role of resort and luxury seafood supplier has continued to the present.

SOCIETY:

        There are currently approximately 15 million native Archipelagans;
transient population is usually around 100,000, spread among Farrier, the
only starport, at the center of a rim island in the low tropics in the
northern hemisphere, and approximately 60 resorts scattered across
Archipelago.  Farrier has a population of roughly 2 million living long the
seashore and the base of the ridge near the tip of its crescent-shaped
island.  It is a major boatbuilding center (one of Archipelago's major
domestic industries, next to aquaculture and tourism) and the planetary
capital.  It is also the capital.

        The Agency maintains a rather benign and distant rule over the
population; the overall law level is rather low.  Many restrictions are
simply not neccessary, as Archipelagn culture has retained the traditional
Vilani communalist orientation, blended with an environmentalist
sensibility derived from its Solomani biologist forbears.  Crime is rare,
food is plentiful, and the climate and circadian patterns do not lend
themselves to seasonal affective disorders.  The one area where the Agency
rules with a heavy hand is in environmental regulation; as Archipelago's
artificially implanted and structured ecosystem is not as robust as
naturally evolved ecosystems, this is understandable.  Archipelagans go to
extreme lengths to recycle, use renewable, non-polluting energy sources
wherever possible (wind and solar generation is extremely common, although
=46usion+ units are becoming popular), and in general have a highly develope=
d
ecological sensibility.

        This preoccupation with environmental protection will become quite
apparent to off-worlders at disembarkation.  Rigorous customs controls are
in place when exiting the starport (although they will not bat an eyelid at
armament that would be illegal on Sylea, discovery of non-native biological
specimens wil result in immediate deportation and stiff fines), and
departure taxes are high.  As well, although refined fuel is available, it
is quite expensive, as it is mined from the local gas giant by subsidiaries
of Ling Standard and Famille Spofulam.  Local law prohibits ocean
refuelling.  Finally, a high departure tax is imposed.  These measures
serve to increase the cost of a voyage to Archipelago, and are a deliberate
disincentive imposed by the Agency to limit the number of visitors.

        However, once past the formalities at the starport, Archipelago is
an extremely pleasant planet.  The predominant means of transport is by
water; Archipelagan naval architecture tends towards catamaran and trimaran
multihulls.  Sail-powered vessels are extremely common, taking advantage of
the trade winds that blow through the most densely populated latitudes of
the planet.  Architectural materials use local stone, along with coral
blocks, bamboo, and other woods.  Modern materials tend to be reserved for
use where they are most needed.  Farrier offers some of the best seafood
restaurants anywhere in the Imperium, and its low pink and white coral
houses and winding streets contain many pleasant little boutiques.  The
many resorts in the Out Islands are sybaritic in the extreme.  And the
Agency is determined to keep it that way.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:55:47 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Long Day's Journey... 

INTRO:

        In the tradition of the Sunday Follies and Grand adventure posts,
I've decided to post events occurring in my newly begun Milieu 0 campaign
to the TML.  I've titled it "Long Day's Journey..." for reasons which will
eventually become apparent.  I'm using the vanilla T4 rules, with some of
my own SSDS-designed ships and FF&S weapons.  The only supplement to the
basic rules that I'm using is Glenn Grant's hit location table.

THE CAST:

Isaac Xyroli: a young, brash, and arrogant ex-Scout, currently working for
Ling Standard as pilot on the Frozen Glory, a FSY Mouffette-Rapide class
far courier.  Played by the TML's own Ross Coburn.

Leemcha Quo: Ascetic no-nonsense 35-year-old Asian/Vilani ex-Navy
Astrogator.  Carries a pair of FSMOMAE Gunchaku-2000's (description to
follow) in her luggage.  Played by a non-TMLer.

Dr. Ilbren Dinaskir: A Vilani archaeologist of humble origins, specializing
in the Rule-of-Man period, who rose to his present recently tenured
position due to his own brilliance and not to his humble origins on an
algae farm.  Played by TML'er Glenn Grant.

Lt. Jack 23: A strong, silent, dangerous type with "military" written all
over him; formerly a marine, now working for Ling Standard Security.  Has
manged to overcome his underprivileged youth as an orphan in a Solomani
Genetic Collective rather nicely.  Again, played by nobody you know.

Lt. Kyle Deschenko: A nice, genteel thug from one of the best of families.
Despite coming from a well-off family (SOC A), he nevertheless managed to
get sent to a military academy for his youthful misdeeds.  After a stint in
the Navy, he spent some time as a Rogue before getting hired by Ling.  Has
every weapon-related skill save Heavy Weapons.  Likewise, played by a
non-TMLer.


THE SETTING:  Sylea, Year 0 Day 1: Cleon has just made the Restoration
Proclamation, the Imperium is hours old, and the parties are going strong!
Some months ago a small company of gas miners launched a massive
artificially constructed comet made of specially treated exotic ices.  At
the moment of Cleon's coronation, a grid of explosive charges blows the
insulating carbonaceous crust off its surface, and what looks remarkably
like an Imperial Sunburst begins to bloom over Sylea.


EPISODE 1: Grav Bikes and Gauss Guns are Tools of Ill Omen.


 Scene 1:       The game began with Dr. Dinaskir and Dean Dr. Dr. Dr.
Hengabar Zuukaash riding a grav lift to the roof of the Imperial Institute
for the Advancement of Learning.  Dr.^3 Zukassh, a short, portly
whitebearded individual who looks like a sinister Santa Claus is telling
Dr. Dinaskir that his chances for tenure track access have substantially
increased due to unexpected corporate largess, and that their colleague
Dr.^2 Hereish has unexpectedly departed for a sponsored dig.  They arrive
in the rooftop gardens in time for a massive academic bunfight; those
members of the Astronomy department who brought their own telescopes to
observe the comet are particularly popular.  Dr. Dinaskir becomes engaged
in conversation with a pleasant young teaching assistant, and we switch
to...


        ...Scene 2:  Lts. 23 and Duschenko meet at Ling Standard's Security
offices and are briefed on their mission of industrial espionage; armed
with Gauss SMGs and heavily disguised, they are to meet a mole in a Tukera
weapons-research subsidiary who will pass them a disk containing vital
information.  They will be sent in instead of the usual case officer
because there is some risk that the drop will be compromised.  Alternative
getaway routes are to a secluded spot on a neighbouring noble's estate, or
as a last resort, to geosynchronous orbit, where a ship will be waiting to
collect them.  They proceed to arm themselves and are disguised
accordingly.

Scene 3: Isaac and Leemcha board the Frozen Glory, taking delivery of the
brand spanking new vessel from Famille Spofulam Yards at Sylea's high port.
The crew is rounded out by the engineer, Kliraad Yraesh, a convival and
friendly ex-Navy 04, and Shikaaraashii Maabaashii, the shy and retiring
gunner/steward.  They take possessions of the ship and launch for a
shakedown cruise.

Scene 4: Lts 23 and Duschenko arrive at the site of the drop (a trendy
rooftop eatery closely modelled on Montreal's Club 737).  Duschenko arrives
by the elevator, Lt. 23 flies a hotwired FSGT Ludaccel-20 grav bike in.
The mole is met, the disk is handed over, and then an Iliant Lion, with a
laser-rifle wielding passenger, suddenly flies up the side of the building
and pops into view.  The mole expires in the first laser drive-by in recent
history.  Lt. 23, who was handling the drop, dives over the bar.  General
panic ensues; diners mill about screaming.  Lt. Duschenko does nothing
until the grav car confirms its hostile intentions by further firing upon
Lt. 23, at which point Lt. Duschenko hauls out his SMG and hoses it down
with remarkable effect.  The car drops out of sight behind the building,
its driver trying to ground it before his emergency power supply fails.
Fleeing the scene, Lt. 23 is forced to dissuade a diner from Blurring Lt.
Duschenko by pulling a gun on him.  In a commendable display of
self-restraint, he doesn't fire.

        Running across to the other wing, where the grav bike is parked,
Lt. Duschenko trades shots with a laser-armed grav cycle, but to no effect.
Boarding the grav cycle, with Lt. 23 driving, they dive off the side of
the building, with roadgrid control and safety cutoffs disabled.  On the
way down, a shot from the hostile grav cycle perforates the coolant housing
on their power plant.  They experience a near-collision with a grav truck
as they dive through the traffic stream.  Realizing the seriousness of
their situation, Lt. 23 tries for the orbital extraction, by pointing the
cycle straight up and accelerating at 15 Gs, thereby breaking the sound
barrier in city limits and rendering himself and Lt. Duschenko unconscious.

        Some blocks away, Dr. Dinaskir witnesses their sudden and
spectacular departure.


Scene 5: Meanwhile, in low Sylean orbit, the crew of the Frozen Glory is
putting her through her paces when they recieve a call from Orbital Control
requesting that they rescue an out-of-control grav cycle that has gone on a
ballistic trajectory.  The trajectory in question being uploaded to them,
Pilot Xyroli hastens the ship to the scene, overloading the thrust plates
by 100% (a capability which those funloving guys at FSY designed into the
craft), and puts the ship into hover right at the grav cycle's expected
apogee.

        Lt. 23 comes to in a rather overheated and crowded grav cycle
interior that smells of burning insulation; the power plant has given up
the ghost and his nav computer shows them to be on a lovely parabola that
will land them in the ocean several hundred kilometers downrange.  Lt.
Duschenko awakens shortly thereafter, and offers him a slug from his hip
flask of Varg spirits as a means of making re-entry a more pleasant
experience.  They stoically admire the comet as they approach apogee.

        At apogee, however, they are snagged by a line fired from the
Frozen Glory, and Maabaashii, the gunner, reels them in through an open
cargo door.  the doors close, and Maabaashii holds them covered with a riot
gun.  The fact that this might not be their designated pickup filters
through to both Lieutenants.

        Approximately 10 minutes thereafter, the flight crew of the Frozen
Glory detect unauthorized boarders; figures in battle dress appear in both
airlocks.  Pilot Xyroli immediately applies full 100% overloaded thrust and
cuts the intertial compensators, and begins corkscrewing the ship all over
the sky.  One boarder tumbles the full length of the spiral staircase
connecting the bridge and crew quarters to the lounge, doing severe damage
to the woodwork.  Everyone down in the cargo hold kisses deckplate hard and
long.  Lt. Duschenko loses consciousness yet again.  After some minutes
spent like this, with loose objects getting thrown all over the ship, a
boarder manages to finish hacking into the ship's computer system and cuts
the drive.  The boarders blur the pilot, stuff Lts. Duschenko and 23 into
rescue bags, and EVA them across to their waiting Moonshine RI/ESS.

        As it happens, the boarders were actually 23 and Duschenko's
pickup, who had to make an unexpected descent down to LEO and board the
Frozen Glory in order to complete their mission. They remove Duschenko and
23 from the bags, stuff them into grav tanks, and proceed to rendezvous
with their transponder, which they'd left in another orbit entirely.

        The Frozen Glory, piloted by Leemcha as Isaac is still Blurred,
proceeds back to the high port for questioning by the authorities.
Everyone is debriefed.


Scene 6: Roughly a week passes.  Lt. Duschenko convalesces, the crew of the
Frozen Glory go over their story one more time with the police, and Lt. 23
enjoys his hazardous duty bonus.  Then, Dr. Dinaskir is summoned to the
Dean's office.  The Dean informs him that Ling standard has a) suddenly
endowed a chair in Rule of Man Archaeology for Dr. Dinaskir, and b)
requested that he begin excavations on a dig at Skrunge (planet description
to follow) at once, laying on a courier ship and providing him with all the
equipment required.  He rushes of to pack, flush with the heady realization
that he is now tenured.

        Lts. Duschenko and 23 are summoned to their superior's office, and
informed that they will be leaving at once on a mission to Skrunge, posing
as company reps.  It seems that the disk they collected contained archival
data pointing to a Rule of Man era secret Solomani weapons research
facility there.  They are to stop for refuelling at Archipelago (planet
description will follow) en route to Skrunge, and pick up some security
troops and gear from Ling's subsidiary there. They are to preserve secrecy,
ensure that the mission remains uncompromised, and to generally ride
shotgun.

        Xyroli and Leemcha recieve comm calls to the effect that they are
to take on passengers at the high port and proceed immediately to Skrunge
via Archipelago.

        Meeting at the ship, the archaeologist and the Lts. board.  Takeoff
ensues.  Conversation is at first awkward as the Lts. are quite aware that
Xyroli was responsible for their being slid all over the cargo hold floor
at 8 Gs a week previously.  Xyroli, never having seen them, has no clue.
At any rate, they depart at 4G's for jump point.  A Vilani meal cooked by
Maabaashii (which proved to be almost edible) serves to loosen tensions.
Conversation centers around Dr. Dinaskir's speculation that his colleague
Dr. Hereish might be headed for the same site, and the session ends with
Dr. Dinaskir and Lt. Duschenko drinking late into the night.

        And that was that.  Next game is next Wednesday.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:55:54 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: FSMOMAE "Gunchaku-2000"

Famille Spofulam Mail-Order Martial Arts Equipment is pleased to announce
the Gunchaku-2000!  Imagine the surprise on your opponents' faces when what
appeared to be a simple pair of nunchaku actually turns out to be
concealing four barrels of 13 X 65 mm shotgun carnage!*  To the uneducated
eye, the Gunchaku-2000 appears to be a simple pair of nunchaku, with
textured plastic grips at each end.  In reality, the grip at the chain end
of each chuck twists and retracts to reveal a custom-built individually
loading shotgun reciever, then slides forward to cock the action.  Twin
triggers, one on either side of the grip, must be depressed at the same
time to fire it, thus obviating the risk of accidental discharge during
your spectacularly menacing displays of kung-fu prowess (for a complete
holovid course on the ancient Solomani death-dealing martial art known with
fear as "kung-fu", please send 225.50 cr and an SASE to the address below).
The grips on the business end of the barrels are simply there to conceal
the muzzles.  Replacements are available from FSMOMAE for the moderate
price of 2.50 cr apiece.

* Sylean customers are warned that carrying the Gunchaku-2000 anywhere on
Sylea is an offence under at least 15 provisions of the Sylean Prohibited
Weapons Ordinance.  Arrest while carrying may result in up to 25 years
imprisonment at hard labour.  Its import to other worlds may be forbidden.
Please verify the legal situtation on your world before ordering.

T4 stats:

Damage:         as chucks 1.5 d, as gun 2.5
TL:             10
Range:  Contact (3m)
Shots:  4 (1 per barrel, 2 per nunchaku)
Mass:   1.8 kg per barrel (3.7 kg per pair)
Reloads:        25.9 grams per shell.
Cost:           450 Cr for two pair

FF&S data:


SHELL: 13 X 65 mm shotgun (36 3.5mm pellets), 25.9 g, .26 Cr

BARREL:

Avg. Barrel length: 53 cm
Actual length: 18 cm
Weight: .36 kg
Cost: 36 Cr
Muzzle energy: 1502
blp: 0.34
Damage: 2.5 (slightly fudged; FF&S kept on giving 8 dice and change)

RECIEVER (light individual):

Length: 18.9
Weight: 1.35
Cost: 67.3

STOCK: none

blm: .2
Range: 3m (Contact)

FEED: none

Options: none

Weight: per barrel, loaded: 1.8 kg, per chuck 3.7
Length: per barrel: 36.9

Recoil: 2.5

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #876
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 877



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller Movie?
Re: Gearhead Alert!!!!       Critical Ship Displacement Question
Re: Gridlore Technologies Delivers!
Re: Vilani and Long Pig
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #872
Core Sector, A Question:
Re: A new weapon for people - an idea
New Weapon - an Idea, Distribution problems
Criticism and comment &/or Long-Pig?
Re: New Weapon - an Idea, Distribution problems
re:  Whither the dreadnaught?
Re: T4 ammunition? (fwd)
Emperor's Arsenal/Imperial Squadron
RE: pogo sticks
re:  Whither the dreadnaught?
TL of 2nd and 3rd Imperiums
Classic Traveller Auction #3

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 01:22:17 -0500 (EST)
From: TBSVT@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Movie?

In mail you wrote

>I work for an animation company, and I got the president (well, his
secretary) >interested in 
>the idea of Traveller as a cartoon. Unfortunately, I haven't heard back from
them >(sweetpea )
>in a while. Maybe if this list expressed its interest in such a project,
things >would get 
I will buy the traveller movie in a heart beat please push it 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 23:56:29 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Gearhead Alert!!!!       Critical Ship Displacement Question

On 01/23/97 at 09:50 PM,  Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com> said:

> Thank you Eris, you make a great point, that being,
>    "A TON is not a TON is not a TON"

You're welcome, Paul.  I started trying to compare historically ships to
Traveller designs 20 years ago and noticed *something* wasn't quite right. 
;-> That's when I started digging around and discovered that there are more
"ton's" out there than you can shake a stick at.

> I had to jump in here cause it is one of the few things I know about. :)

> Registry Tons actually varry from country to country, but here in the US
> it is 100 Cu. Ft.

I didn't know they vary from country to country.  All the numbers I've seen
have been in US or British publications, and I think they both use 100
cuft/reg ton.  And thanks for correcting me, it is Registry Ton not
Register Ton.

> Just a side note to those of you who keep up, the company I work for
> could build a 1,000 Reg Tn. ship in 9-12 months and that would be the
> same as a 200 dt Traveller ship. 

Wouldn't you just *love* to actually be building jump capable Free Traders?
;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:05:48 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Gridlore Technologies Delivers!

>Ever seen Tremors 2? The puppy that Michael Gross fires in that (a real
>gun btw) is a mere wimpy .50 cal belted round.

Isn't it a .600 Nitro Express?


/Backman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:09:41 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

>Sorry, but this *isn't* a fact. Far from it. The human species has a
>*long* history of cannibalism. And of *taboos* to prevent it. If there
>truly was a "genetic" reason, then you wouldn't have cannibalism
>occuring in emergency situations.

Just because something occurs doesn't mean that we aren't
genetically predisposed against it.  In any case, as
it becomes irrelevant.  A poster arguing in favor
of cannibalism talked about cannibalism being "a taboo
so strong you would think it was an instinct".  Well
not only are instincts difficult to sperate from
other causes, but the relevant point is the strength
of the taboo, not the source.

>Whether or not cannibalism is good for a social species depends
>entirely on the conditions under which it occurs. And *being* both
>social and intelligent humans use taboos to set those conditions.

The fact is that a species, regardless of conditions, can
never make up for nutritional resources over any significant
time scale by cannibalism.

>Killing members OF YOUR OWN SOCIAL GROUP is bad for the group. Killing
>members of OTHER GROUPS is only bad for your group if it hurts your
>group. And this is regardless of whether you eat them.

But if cannibalism is the edge you need to survive or propsper,
that other group will die off and you still have the same
problem.

Cannibalism is, for a species, the same as eating yourself to
avoid starvation.  It can never help except in the very
short term.

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:26:52 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #872

Thu, 23 Jan 97 11:09:48 -0500, Ross Coburn <ross@ican.net>;
>I am under the distinct impression that most of the anti-Vilanibilism
>posters' arguments are based more ir own distaste for the subject and
>subsequently-formulated reasoning than by any real evidence to the
>contrary.

Gee, and I'm under the impression that the other side is basing
their arguements on the desire to invent reasons for Vilani
to be cannibals so they can add another gimmic rather than any
real justification for believing it would be true. :-)

(The "motivations for posting" arguement always cuts
both ways and never proves anything....)

>What do we 'know' about the Vilani?  That NOTHING WHATSOEVER
>on Vland was (or, for that matter is) edible without fairly extensive
>preparation.  Nothing, that is, except OTHER VILANI.  I leave the rest up
>to your fecund imaginations.

On the other hand what support is there for the idea that
cannibalism did occur?  There is a rule of thumb that you
get on suspension of disbelief to set up the setting.
After that, if you keep asking the reader to accept things
"just because" things start getting hokey.  To me, this
applies here.

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:31:20 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Core Sector, A Question:

Hi there, 
since we now know that CORE wrote M0, (which i think is great, i LOVE 
TLWH!) could someone finally clarify how the  CORE Sector is going to 
look like? 
- - Same stars and names, collapsed UWP?
(My preference, since i could use my olde Travellers Diggeste 9 for 
additional data-btw has this been used for background, as it should 
have, because it contains a great deal of M0-relevant data...)
- - Totally new star locations with no similarities?
- - Something unspeakably different?
Any enlightenment would be appreciated, since the first thing that i 
need for gaming in the not quite as far as the other far future (aka 
M0), would be a map and UWP's that are definitive, since i want at 
least some consistencies with the official T4 Universe!
 
Just my 2 EuroCents,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:43:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A new weapon for people - an idea

In mail you write:

> Here is my out line for a laser rifle that could be made now i.e. AD1997,
> it would be nice for people to tear it to shreds and tell me why it could
> or couldn't work.
>
> As far as i can see the only thing stopping us having laser weapons at the
> moment is not having a power source strong enough to supply the power, i
> think this is bulshit, 
>
> My weapon would look a bit like a semi auto shotgun but instead of loading
> it with buckshot cartridges load it with high charge capacitors, each
> capacitor supplies one shot, there may or may not be enough energy released
> in the discharge to trigger a brief burst from the laser to be of use, once
> discharged the capacitor is ejected exactly like the shotgun cartridge.

The problem is that the energy stored in a capacitor is:
	E=.5*C*V^2

E = Energy in Joules
C = Capacitance in *Farads*
V = voltage in Volts.

While you *can* buy 10 Farad capacitors (about the size of a beer can)
they can't handle more than about 50 volts. That gives a total energy
of 12.5 kilojoules. Which won't do more than give you a nasty burn (if
that). The dielectrics that allow such high capacitances *can't* handle
high voltages.

Weapons grade lasers require *megajoule* energy levels. And you can't
cram that much power into a capacitor that you can carry. Also, if I
managed to hit such a capacitor with a round from an ordinary rifle,
the results would be about the same as a satchel charge going off. 
Or at the very least, a grenade. 

The problem is energy *density*. That is, how much energy you can cram
into a kilo of "battery". And we just can't do it with current
technology. As it is, the best energy densities known are explosives,
and liquid fuels. 

So not only are laser (and gauss!) weapons ruled out, so are electric
cars with decent performance and range.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:51:05 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: New Weapon - an Idea, Distribution problems

You say that heat is the big problem, why not use a super conductive
material to lessen the resistance (surrounded in liquid nitrogen in a small
pressure vessel, this is a suggestion), the weight shouldn't be too much of
a problem, it would be for a Pistol at this tech level, which is why i
didn't suggest it.

Last night i went to my local store to get Starships(regardless of bad
press), CSC and Aliens, to be told 'T4 and Starships we sell, but have run
out, no idea when we'll get the next delivery, CSC and aliens, not heard of
them, there out in the states you say, oh well then we might get them in
the summer then, BAB5 RPG, oh didn't you know the publishers are not
releasing it in Europe and have stated that any distributor that releases
it to Europe will be breaking their contract and will be prosecuted' so i'm
still looking for a BAB5/T4 conversion, or a nice person that will buy me a
copy and ship it over to me (Hint Hint). BTW my local store is the Virgin
Megastore on Oxford Street. London. if they can't get things then smaller
shops around the country are going to find it even harder. Despite the
trouble/delays i've had with my T-Shirts, i think i'm going to go direct to
IG for my T4 Products, otherwise I won't get them for years (I suppose that
could also mean we get bug free products over here, who knows)

There endeth my thoughts for today



Colin Hollands	
Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
MIS Europe & Africa Region
Phone:	0171 413 3413
Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 02:00:45 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: Criticism and comment &/or Long-Pig?

4 posts in a week, and two comments, both by private e-mail, one of which
was from one of my players.... At least now 2 of my players will know HOW I
am screwing them over...

Seriously, though, I am sensing an impending flame war... posts that seem
to do little but reiterate a PPugsly-esque need to deny that someone else's
point of view is wrong, but not why. No names to be mentioned.

the whole "Long-pig" thing is an interesting item, one for which we lack a
significant basis. We have what is in the texts of the various supplements,
including a lack of disease organisms, surgury without antiseptics, a rise
of a food-preparing class to nobility... under those assumptions, human
norms do not apply as studied here on earth.

As for wheter or not humans have an *instinctual* anything is questionable;
by definition from my Sociology text (I almost failed for arguing against
the definition), humans cannot have instinct. "Instincts are paterns of
behaviour which cannot be overridden by the organism" [from my notes during
SOC 101]. All human patterns of behaviour a subject to conscious override.
Besides, I'd eat my neighbors if I didn't know that the result of being
caught is to be imprisoned in a mental ward, and prevented from gaming ever
again....

One of the PC's in my current game is a cannibal (the player is not!). TL7,
vaccum world, makes sense (they eat criminals and those dead of natural
causes). I would assume that after 15-20 generations, those subject to
problems with it would be selected against enough to become a minority.


William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:16:13 +0000
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New Weapon - an Idea, Distribution problems

At 10:51 24/01/97 +0000, Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
 wrote:

>Last night i went to my local store to get Starships(regardless of bad
>press), CSC and Aliens, to be told 'T4 and Starships we sell, but have run
>out, no idea when we'll get the next delivery, CSC and aliens, not heard of
>them, there out in the states you say, oh well then we might get them in
>the summer then, BAB5 RPG, oh didn't you know the publishers are not
>releasing it in Europe and have stated that any distributor that releases
>it to Europe will be breaking their contract and will be prosecuted' so i'm
>still looking for a BAB5/T4 conversion, or a nice person that will buy me a
>copy and ship it over to me (Hint Hint). BTW my local store is the Virgin
>Megastore on Oxford Street. London. if they can't get things then smaller
>shops around the country are going to find it even harder. Despite the
>trouble/delays i've had with my T-Shirts, i think i'm going to go direct to
>IG for my T4 Products, otherwise I won't get them for years (I suppose that
>could also mean we get bug free products over here, who knows)
>
	Go to Orc's Nest, 6 Earlham St, just off Cambridge Circus, the junction of
Charing Cross Road and Shaftesbury Avenue. It's not far from Virgin. Take
the south-east road and it's just a few yards down there. Don't rely on
Virgin as they're not very specialised and don't always have a clue. Orc's
Nest had all the four T4 books in the last time I looked; T4, AA, CSC and
Starships. Call them on 0171-379-4254 to get them to hold a copy. Also,
Leisure Games in Finchley has the books in too. They're on 0181-346-2327.
Good luck!

	The Virgin Megastore in Oxford Street is local to me too, I work in Euston
at the top of TCR. Fancy lunch sometime? ;-)

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis

InterNet - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk , mailto:bejlewis@aol.com
Mobile Tel - 0956-506527

From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at
http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 04:42:17 -0800
From: Eric Nolan <ericno@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: re:  Whither the dreadnaught?

>Bigger ships do deliver a good "bang for the buck," but a lot of that bang is
>intangible in terms of your average TCS tournament.  An Empress-class 
>battlewagon provides more than just ship-to-ship firepower; she can serve as
a 
>command ship, carry invasion troops, serve as a carrier and (perhaps most 
>importantly) serve as a means of "Showing the Flag."

As Steve Charlton says, I over emphasised my point about DNs being
useless
in the first paragraph of my mail.  I maintain however, that I pointed
out later
in my mail that the real purposes of DNs are not modelled by games such
as
TCS and BL.  These purposes being political and economic.  For example,
"Showing the Flag" as pointed out above.  Another reason for their
existance I
mentioned being the fact that the designers and clients want their ships
to be
the best, the biggest and the flashiest (the Admiral factor brought up
by Phil
McGregor).

I actually think we are all in agreement.  In time of war with an
approximately
equal or superior enemy your navy should consist of fleets which are
most
efficient at destroying enemy warships (the scenario modelled by the
various
Traveller tactical games).  There is no real place in these fleets for
DNs.

However the 3rd Imperium has never been in this situation (neither the
Zho's
or the Vargr were a real threat to the survival of the Imperium as a
whole).
Since this is the case the navy is more multi-role.  It's purposes
include the
ones mentioned by the various posters (ferrying around admirals in
luxury,
impressing the natives, increasing internal morale and boosting civic
pride).


Addressing some points by Tom Lane (since he specifically asked for
rebuttal,
although this is realy just comment)

>Ask any Navy or Air Force driver what type of ship they'd rather attack
>in the real world:  a light frigate or an AEGIS cruiser(usually
>neither-ships is BAD.)  I go for the frigate if I had a choice.

I won't be suprised if I'm corrected since most of my knowledge of
modern
naval warfare comes from reading Tom Clancy, but . . . .
Is it not the case that we (that is the global we) no longer have
Dreadnaught
class ships?  and as a matter of fact most navies are downsizing their
ships?
Based on the name I'm fairly confident that the Aegis class is not a DN
class.
The question is not really relevant then, since both ship types
mentioned
would have a place in a TCS type squadron.
I would restate the question as 'Which would you rather attack, the
Bismark
with updated point defence systems and all the modern naval toys or a
battle group of (say) 10 Aegis cruisers.'

>The problem is that Traveller does not adequately simulate the
>differences between small and big ships.  The amount of firepower a
>dreadnought should be able to put out is MINDBOGGLING.  Ever been
>barraged by 10,000 hadronic tipped missiles at a shot?  I'll bet a
>EURISKO can't do that.

Because of the way hardpoints worked in High Guard/TCS the basic rule
was that if you did a good design job you always got the same firepower
when you spent a certain amout of cash (and used the same secondary
criteria such as Jump and Maneuver ratings).  Putting this all into
larger
ships had two effects, reducing your flexibility and increasing the
chances
that a lucky critical would take you out.  Someone should confirm but my
understanding is that this is still basically true under FF&S.

>The one/two spinal mount limit is also wrong.  It is a game rule.  As
>long as the mounts are put along the spine of the ship you should be
>able to mount as many as you can fit.

Very, very true.  Spinal mounts are the gods of the battlefield in
Traveller.
Under High Guard/MT where a ship could have only one spinal weapon
it was incredibly wasteful to have a large ship with one SM when you
could
have two smaller ones and therefore double your SMs.  With FF&S it's not
as bad since you can add more SMs to the one large ship.

>Look as US carrier battlegroup for further info.  Travelller is great,
>but the issue of how the Imperial Navy really works has NEVER been
>adequately addressed.  The game system was designed around the small
>ship, and just doesn't model the scale of efficiency that comes with
>size.

In High Guard, once you go above a certain size, there is no point in
going
any larger.  There is no economy of scale.  Increased size just reduces
flexibility.

If you want reasons for the existance of DNs don't look to the mechanics
of
ship combat for them.  As has been said the only feasible reasons are
not
modelled by the various ship combat rules, but rather are in the
roleplaying
area.

On the point about how the IN works.  They key thing to remember is that
the Imperial Navy has many purposes.  One of these is to impress people
(both citizens and outsiders) with how large and powerful they are.  DNs
fulfill that role well.  
Another purpose is to provide a credible defence against agressors.
Super-
efficient ship killer squadrons do this best.
There are many other tasks which might be assigned, some of which have
already been mentioned.  These various tasks can be completed most
efficiently by task specific ships or squadrons, or, in the main, by DNs
or
other large ships types.  Perhaps with less efficency, but maybe with
greater
flexibility.

<end my rambling stream of consciousness on the subject of DNs>

Eric.

Visit the Wasteland Games web page:
http://aoife.indigo.ie/~waste

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:08:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: T4 ammunition? (fwd)

Hi,

Greg was kind enough to provide an anwer to the ammo question (see below).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:24:55 -0500 (EST)
From: BTRC@aol.com
To: ransom@connect.iconnect.net
Subject: Re: T4 ammunition? (fwd)


In a message dated 1/23/97 4:49:12 PM, you wrote:

<<I know this is probably a really dumb question,
but where the hell are the prices and weights
for small arms ammunition in the T4 rulebook?
I'm assuming that with the exception of the
body pistol, one does not purchase a new
weapon to get more bullets!
>>

The Third Imperium is economy-driven, after all. It is treasonous to suggest
depriving arms merchants of the maximum profit. Report to the nearest
vaporization chamber at once!

Oh, wrong game.

Anyway, until I put more detailed notes in Emporer's Arsenal assume that most
pistol-class weapons have ammunition at 25Cr per 100 shots and 1kg per 100
shots. Rifles will be 50Cr per 100 shots and 1kg per 100 shots. Military ammo
is usually APDS and is double cost and half weight, most of modern ammo mass
being the projectile, and if you use a subcaliber penetrator, mass goes down
drastically.

Assume if a planet's Law Level heavily restricts or regulates a weapon that
ammo cost is doubled again, at least.

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:21:15 -0800
From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
Subject: Emperor's Arsenal/Imperial Squadron

Since my creative energies are largely directed at starships and fleet
combats, I've been watching IG's new web site like a hawk to see when
the new stuff is going to come out. We still need a design system
that'll let us go over 5,000 tons, and lasers in SSDS are listed with
'penetration', which has me (and very likely thousands of others)
scratching my head.... 

And so far, to the best of my knowledge, there has not been ONE WORD in
print about the discrepancy in armor ratings between SSDS and QSDS. One
is for role-playing, the other for fleet combats. Never mind that
thousands of Travellers are still out there driving themselves berserk
over this unexplained design gap -- when do we get fleet combat? When do
we get to build ships over TL15? What do all those base numbers mean --
the ones you feed into the USP Conversion Chart? What are they there
for? We've got stats and design parameters for stuff there are no rules
for! This makes no sense! ARRRGGHHH!

Anyway, the two likeliest candidates that jumped out at me were:

Emperor's Arsenal, 112 Pages	February 1997
Imperial Squadrons, 112 Pages	October 1997

If there's some kind of master list of subject matter, it hasn't been
posted by IG yet. I'm interested in all of them, naturally, but in
particular I want to know which ones are going to contain rules for
starship construction (is that FF&S? I thought it was going to be some
kind of all-round technology bible... has the scope of the work been
narrowed? and if not, is every other piece of equipment in the T4
universe going to have to be redesigned to fit it? -- deep breath -- )
and a more advanced combat system that will at least make sense what
we've been given. Does anybody know what kind of material these (or any
of the long list of other upcoming T4 books) is going to contain? 
Anybody....?

- -- Jay Stranahan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:39:33 -0500
From: "Dorn, Michael" <Michael_Dorn@dscc.dla.mil>
Subject: RE: pogo sticks

I just want to know who has been reading back issues of "Car and
Driver"?? - they did a review of a one-cylinder internal combustion
engine powered pogo stick sometime in the late '60s. 
Michael Dorn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:16:39 -0800
From: bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: re:  Whither the dreadnaught?

 One thing which seems to have been missed about this is the fact that
larger hulls can have porportionatley more armor then smaller ones... That
makes a big diffrence when you can shrug off spinal shots..
bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:52:04 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: TL of 2nd and 3rd Imperiums

Robert Flammang writes:
>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>> 
>>Richard Hough writes:
>>>I would complain if the TL 14 items were described as standard issue, but
>>>they are not. They are described as "beyond current Imperium expertise" and
>>>"recovered from derelict ships". 
>> 
>>But that still implies that within 20-30 parsecs of Sylea at least one TL 
>>14+ civilization existed not so very many centuries ago. 
>
>If you drop your assumption that the artificers lived 20-30 parsecs from
>Sylea, then these gimmicks become more plausible. And more rare.

That isn't an assumption, it's a deduction. If such artifacts are present in
sufficient numbers to be sold (albeit at inflated prices) on the open market
then where did they come from? Not umpteen parsecs to coreward.

I've had a chance to page through a copy of CSC and it appears that these
relics are salvaged from derelict Rule of Man ships. The notes claims that
the technology is understood by the Syleans, and that they just don't have
the technological support to produce them. This implies that RoM was at
least borderline TL14, which is _a mistake_ (Or, since CSC is an official
publication, I suppose I have to call it a change of the canon). I
personally think it is a bad change since another canonical fact is that
the Imperium dosen't reach TL 13 until Year 300 and TL 14 until... (was
it 700?). Making the RoM TL 14 and the Sylean Federation borderline TL 13
is, IMO, a Bad Idea.

Besides, isn't one of the points of doing Mileau Zero to make it different
from the other Traveller settings? Why then erase as much of the difference
as possible this way?



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:29:43 GMT
From: sdollar@goodnet.com (Stuart L. Dollar)
Subject: Classic Traveller Auction #3

sdollar@goodnet.com (Stuart L. Dollar) wrote:

A friend of mine has the following Classic Traveller Items available
for Auction:

1) Traveller Boxed Set:
Books 1-3
1st Edition (1977), 5th Printing
Very Good Condition

$20:  ross@ican.net

2) Traveller Boxed Set
Books 1-3
1st Edition (1977), 9th Printing
Very Good

$25:  ross@ican.net

3) Book 4, Mercenary
1st Edition (1978), 2nd Printing
Very Good
There are 2 copies of this one, in very similar condition.

$15:  dmalnati@usa.net or dmalnati@absi.com
$10:  kieschef@cowen.com
$5:  34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu

4) Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society #6
Very Good
Minimum Bid $4

Here are the rules for the auction:

1)  The first phase of the auction will run from today, Monday,
January 20, 1997 through 1200 AM, MST, February 3, 1997.  

At the end of the first phase of bidding, the top 2 bidders (3 in the
case of Mercenary) will be notified by e-mail to submit a final bid.
They will have until 1200 AM, MST, February 7, 1997 to submit the
final bid.  Winning bidders will be the person who bids highest.  He
will pay $1 more than the next highest bid regardless of what he bid.
For example:

Bidder A bids $17
Bidder B bids $14
Bidder A wins the item and pays $15 ($14+$1)

2)  Bid prices do not include shipping

3)  Minimum Bid increments are $1

4)  Payment will be taken by check or money order in US$ only.
Payment by check will require a 2 week holding period for the check to
clear.  Money orders will be shipped the following day.

5) Bids will be accepted by e-mail only to:
sdollar@goodnet.com

6) Updates to the auction will be posted daily to USENet and the list.

7) Please indicate which copy of the Traveller Boxed Set you are
bidding on.

Thanks,
Stu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #877
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 878



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Suppression Fire
Re: Viliani & Spongy Brains
Re: Long Day's Journey: Skrunge
Re: Supression Fire
Re: A new weapon for people - an idea
Re: Gridlore Technologies Delivers!
Dreadnoughts
Re: Core Sector, A Question:
Re: Whither the dreadnaught? NO WAY (Long)
Re: Jump Drives/Space
Re: APOLOGY, Ship Design, Vilani Cannibalism & Taste Buds
Re: A new weapon for people - an idea
Re: Good News for Traveller!
Re: Suppression Fire
Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
re: Skrunge
Re: Long Day's Journey: Skrunge
Re: Dreadnaughts considered harmful
Re: New Weapon - an Idea, Distribution problems
Re: possible T4 errata?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:18:55 EST
From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton)
Subject: Re: Suppression Fire

ate: Thu, 23 Jan 97 18:05 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
>I am reliably informed that suppression fire really does work, 

It does.  That's from 1st hand experience.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:25:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Viliani & Spongy Brains

>         We "know" that there was enough food on Vland to support humans.
> We know that it was a) of alien biochemistry and b) required special
> preparation by a class of ritual specialists.  We know that the body of
> knowledge held by these specialists was not acquired overnight, and we know
> that the Vilani tend towards extreme conservatism.  We know that no local
> microorganisms can infect the Vilani.  We know that the Vilani reached the
> stars before any other branch of Humaniti, and established dominion over
> the rest of Humaniti until the Solomani came along.  And we know that the
> Vilani are no longer cannibals (at least in public :>).

But we, outside of the game, also know that the Ancients set up the 
bulk of Vilani proto-society and may well have shaped it in ways
in which it would not have evolved naturally. The Vilani may have
not had to learn everything the "hard way".

>         In passing, I think that my model of the early Vilani diet is much
> more likely than the alternative, i.e. that the Vilani, after abandonment
> by the Ancients, immediately developed a fully nutritious, complete and
> 100% balanced diet based on foods whose biochemistry was totally alien and
> which in the natural state were toxic.

Well, not immediately, but they would have been starting from more than 
zero.

>         Meanwhile, the relative scarcity of long pig, and the quest for a
> gruel that didn't taste like spiced formaldehyde, would have driven the
> Shugilli to keep on experimenting; one doesn't become an expert
> toxicologist/organic chemist/nutritionist overnight.  They would have
> continued to improve the local food menu.  And since the Vilani didn't
> carry any disease pathogens, the kuru/mad cow situation did not arise.

Now, I may not be 100% right here, but the thing with kuru/mad cow
disease (I can't spell Croitsfeld-Jacob) is that it isn't a bacteria
nor is it a virus - it's some wierd protien thing that can only be passed
through eating other people... even when the meat is cooked, frozen,
boiled and blanched (with a touch of bernaise sauce) the dan thing is
still there. That's why this whole "mad cow" thing is such a problem -
the only way to prevent the disease is not to eat meat that might
contain it! "Canon" says that there were no problems with bacteria 
or viruses on Vland, to a major extent, e.g. no flu, no black plague,
no chicken pox, etc. But again, mad cow disease works through a
completely different and distinct mechanism and cannibalism may be
the cause of one of the few diseases known on ancient Vland!

>        However, in the meantime, it would have served as a psychological
> incentive to innovate technologically (better-armed and equipped groups
> rarely get eaten) and to expand (dominant groups are the ones doing the
> eating; therefore you want to be the dominant group in your neighbourhood).
> So, the extremely rapid Vilani technological advance and their drive to
> subjugate the rest of Charted Space are explained: psychological and
> cultural hangovers from cannibalism.
> 
>         So, I think I've got the objections (food chain, closed system,
> kuru/mad cow) covered here, IMHO.  I can still make a case for
> vilanibbalism and do so in a way that a) matches the "historical facts" and
> b) explains Vilani conformism/communitarianism, their rapid technological
> advance, and their drive for conquest.

Well, I think kuru is still a problem, though it's only a problem for
"large-scale" cannibalism - it still might happen now and again on
those old inter-village attacks.

>         **************REALITY CHECK***************
> 
>         My god I can't believe I'm still doing this :).  I'm behaving like
> a philosophy prof and spending my morning fiercely debating unprovable
> elements of a totally fictional fact situation :).  Seriously, folks, I
> think that given the state of our "knowledge", this baby is unprovable one
> way or the other (although I still think Vilanibbalism more likely than the
> alternative; it fits too nicely).  So this whole discussion, although
> amusing, is getting increasingly silly and pointless...

Well, ok. 

Now, _Zhodani_ cannibalism on the other hand...

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:55:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Long Day's Journey: Skrunge

Wow, great post!

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:15:42 EST
From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton)
Subject: Re: Supression Fire

>Actually, one could think of sniper-fire as supp.fire in the minimalist
sense:
>all the excitement of 'the round with my name on it' with a lot less
noise!

Well, in all actuality sniper fire has a different effect than when an
M-60 is spraying bullet after bullet in your general vacinity.
When a shot is heard (as in from a sniper), you either:
Drop where you are and find cover
Run like hell until you find cover (of course only staying up for 3
seconds at a time)
or start unloading everything you have in the general area you believe
the sniper to be in (this is really only effective at squad and platoon
level).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:15:42 EST
From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton)
Subject: Re: A new weapon for people - an idea

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:30:27 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: A new weapon for people - an idea

> Seriously though, the US Army has  laser rifle now. It can only be used
for blinding
> attacks, but the neat thing is the only defence is to close your eyes
and keep them closed. It
> can rapidly cycle through various freqs to counter polarized lenses.


>The systems are called dazzlers.  They have taken out pilots before, as
>the Russians were fond of flashing nearby recon aircraft with them to
>fry the pilots eyes.  Worked, but as far as I know the guys landed
>safely.

Another use of the Russian (ex-soviet) military of lasers is in the more
modern tanks.  They use a high powered laser for rangefinding
capabilities, but the laser shoots farther than the tank round, so the
would frequently use the lasers to blind enemy troops, tank commanders,
anything.
Or at least that was in my briefing before I rolled into Iraq.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:22:20 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Gridlore Technologies Delivers!

At 10:11 AM 1/24/97 -0500, Scott A. Renner wrote:
>>>>>> James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> writes:
>>> GT deals with the problem of the rifle's large recoil by adding safety
>>> features to prevent injury.  The safety will not release unless the
>>> weight of the rifle is resting on the bipod or the system has been
>>> mounted on a solid bracket.
>
>My first move is to disable that safety.  When I pull the trigger on a
>weapon, I want it to *fire*.  I'll decide whether it's worth a broken
>shoulder to get a round off, not some stupid safety.
>
>-- Scott
>
>

 James Garriss                   http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   
 Systems Engineer, MITRE                  jpg@langley.mitre.org
      "Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently 
       high plateau."  --  Irving Fisher, 
                           Professor of Economics
                           Yale University, 1929

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:08:08 -0800
From: Kenji Houston <hokido@primenet.com>
Subject: Dreadnoughts

I'm big fan of FF&S. Not only can I design ships, but their weapons and
defenses. The drawback is how the the weapons and defenses are
evaluated. For every 20 damage points FF&S weapons inflict 1 major hit,
why not rate weapons by the number of major hits. Structural Integrity;
the amount of major hits a ship can take per weapon hit before suffering
critical damage. I rate my ships by the square root of (displacement
tonnage * g-stress /100). IE a 100dton scout with a 4-g hull would have
a S.I. level of 2. Sandcasters function by deflecting lasers, not
asorbing the energy. Sand should have little effect against particle
accellerators. Lasers should be of two types pulse and beam. Pulse
lasers have great pentration (armour/10), but low damage. Beam lasers do
great damage (3*pulse laser damage), but no penetration bonus. The 600mj
limit on tech 12 lasers should only be for turret weapons only. Fixed
lasers should have no limits.

Having jumps take a day instead of a week would quiken the pace of the
game and make mercantile operations actually profitable. Ships would
need a day for the jump drives to recalibrate. Fleets dropping out of
jump space, would be scattered and unable to put up sand, until they get
away from the jump wake.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:23:15 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Core Sector, A Question:

On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> since we now know that CORE wrote M0, (which i think is great, i LOVE 
> TLWH!) could someone finally clarify how the  CORE Sector is going to 
> look like? 

No member of CORE can do so at this point.  We developed the CORE sector 
in the manner we were directed to; however, there have been changes, as 
previously announced, due to inconsistencies between the M0 manuscript 
and First Survey.  Perhaps Marc will tell us what it will be like.

As for me, I'm happy waiting another couple of weeks until I can see it 
for myself.  :-)  As soon as I get it in my hands, I'll be happy to talk 
about it. =)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:10:19 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Whither the dreadnaught? NO WAY (Long)

> Eric Nolan said,

> Addressing some points by Tom Lane (since he specifically asked for
> rebuttal, although this is realy just comment)
> 
> >Ask any Navy or Air Force driver what type of ship they'd rather attack in the real world:  a light frigate or an AEGIS cruiser(usually
> >neither-ships is BAD.)  I go for the frigate if I had a choice.
> 
> I won't be suprised if I'm corrected since most of my knowledge of
> modern naval warfare comes from reading Tom Clancy, but . . . .
> Is it not the case that we (that is the global we) no longer have
> Dreadnaught class ships?  and as a matter of fact most navies are downsizing their ships? Based on the name I'm fairly confident that the Aegis class is not a DN
> class. The question is not really relevant then, since both ship types
> mentioned> would have a place in a TCS type squadron.
> I would restate the question as 'Which would you rather attack, the
> Bismark with updated point defence systems and all the modern naval toys or a battle group of (say) 10 Aegis cruisers.'


Frankly, I'd rather attack the AEGIS cruisers-one or two hits and they
go down to Davy Jones Locker, if I can choose my method of death. Just
as many missiles are going to be flying.  You can hit a Bismark many,
many times and it will not sink(except for specific critical hits by our
redoubtable allies, the Brits.)  Depending on how it is built it may not
even be disabled.  This has to do with increased armor, although the
superstructure is not heavily armored.

I ask myself why dreadnoughts came into being in the first place, if
they were so "useless."  At the time from the late 1890's to 1914, ships
were the only masters of the sea.  A cruiser historically could not
stand in the line of battle, as the larger guns(equalling range and
firepower) the dreadnoughts carried would simply chew them to pieces
while the cruiser shells bounced off the dreadnoughts armor(if they
could even get in range.)  Ships got larger for BOTH prestige and real
physical reasons, as in wartime smaller less armored/gunned ships would
lose.  

The US last design for a  US dreadnought was USS ALASKA around 1946. 
Designed towards the end of WWII, she was 1000' long, had eight main 20
inch guns and a plethora of sub guns that would be considered main
armament on smaller battleships.  Her purpose: 

To engage TWO Yamato class Japanese (18inch gunnned-biggest in
world-ever) battlewagons and defeat them in single combat.  THAT is a
dreadnought.  I've seen the blueprints.

Put 10 cruisers against her and you'll have ten dead cruisers. 
Traveller doesn't even come close to simulating this-the people who
designed it did a good job, but not in this area. 

Why are there no dreadnoughts in the US Navy now?  Well, in a sense,
there are.  Arleigh Burke and Tycho class AEGIS cruisers are called
cruisers. They are really the modern battleships.  Currently missiles
are the vogue, not guns. You don't need a huge ship to mount the
enourmous barbettes for the old turrets anymore, just a large ship to
carry the VLS and replenishment magazines.  Airplanes are today's ship
guns-very long range and precise. Battleships today specifically refer
to older gunned ships.  This may not be soon in the future.

(It was pretty well known in the US Navy that if they had to go toe to
toe with a functioning(big assumption) Russian boat they would be
hurting.  The Russians knew how to pack weapons on a ship.  They just
didn't know how to keep them functioning.  They were called crusiers,
but could have wrecked a US Iowa class with the huge weapons they could
employ!)

Did you know the USAF is soon to build the first airborne laser missile
defense?  In a 747. (Laser Turret TL7-8.)  I have a good rumor that at
least one US carrier has a space specifically provided to mount a
particle accelerator(obviously not fielded yet.)  The US Navy is
designing smart hyperballistic guns with 120 mile range.  You need to be
fairly big to carry these, and have lots of juice.  Maybe not a classic
dreadnought, but still the sea superiority ship that has always ruled
the waves.  Crusiers by definition cannot stand in the line of battle
against a superior ship.

> Because of the way hardpoints worked in High Guard/TCS the basic rule
> was that if you did a good design job you always got the same firepower
> when you spent a certain amout of cash (and used the same secondary
> criteria such as Jump and Maneuver ratings).  Putting this all into
> larger
> ships had two effects, reducing your flexibility and increasing the
> chances
> that a lucky critical would take you out.  Someone should confirm but my
> understanding is that this is still basically true under FF&S.

A gameism not resembling reality. I agree with the loss of flexibility,
but dreadnoughts are designed for one main pupose: to defeat the
enemies' best in a head to head engagement the line of batttle.  

TCS is very much a game, designed to be an approximate simulation of
reality.

Additionally, you are assuming the equal interstellar economies of TCS,
that everyone has the same amount of cash to expend.  This is just not
true, otherwise the US would be in the slagheap the FSU is in.  Economy
is just as much a part of war as the military.  Buy what you can, the
best you can.  If the enemy can't match you they lose.


> >The one/two spinal mount limit is also wrong.  It is a game rule.  As
> >long as the mounts are put along the spine of the ship you should be
> >able to mount as many as you can fit.
> 
> Very, very true.  Spinal mounts are the gods of the battlefield in
> Traveller. Under High Guard/MT where a ship could have only one spinal weapon it was incredibly wasteful to have a large ship with one SM when you could have two smaller ones and therefore double your SMs.  With FF&S it's not as bad since you can add more SMs to the one large ship.

Yeah, but why make them smaller if you don't really have to?  The
example of the Alaska is my submission.

> Another purpose is to provide a credible defence against agressors.
> Super-efficient ship killer squadrons do this best.

They may have a better presence, but again if your opponent throws
invulnerable ships against them they DIE.  Invulnerable ships?  No such
thing?  Well, it depends on your universe.  While it is possible the
future may conclude battleships to be wasteful and worthless, that is
not what caused the governments of the early 20th century to engage in
the greatest naval buildup in history.  It was so scary they got
together and wrote the Washington Naval Treaty to slow down the arms
race-the arms control talks of the day.

Simply put-if you go by the rules of TCS(and maybve HG) you deny the one
principle the 20th century showed about ships- the big ship is basically
invulnerable to smaller ship armament.  

What's my fix if you want to see the game more resemble reality? 
Reengineer the system so that larger, particularly longer spinal mounts
have more range and much more firepower.  Make screen effectiveness
dependant on hull surface area-it should be!   Then you will see the
results I'm talking about.I freely admit Traveller isn't like that. 

And it is wrong.

Look forward to further discussion on this.  I would like to see a way a
cruiser can really make a difference, as it would help my players a bit
in theri upcoming campaign.

Tom "I'm Lucan's sychophant/yes-man-I-like-battleships-too!" Lane  
(otherwise known as "Superhiver")

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Jump Drives/Space

In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970121174732.28327A-100000@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>

<<  (Ringworld...anybody remember Chaosium?)
> 
> Arrgh! I used to *own* a copy of that... I can't believe that I forgot 
it.

   Speaking of which...if _anyone_ has a copy of this game, let me know! 
>>
   
You have been informed. Great game, probably the 2nd best SFRPG.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 18:04 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: APOLOGY, Ship Design, Vilani Cannibalism & Taste Buds

In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970121115414.21272d94@bhars592.bnr.co.uk>

Hmm...I missed that reply the first time round...

<< >>A Vargr in my game could identify branches of Humaniti by taste. IIRC,
>>Zhodani were slightly spicy, Solomani were salty, and Vilani were a bit
>>tasteless.
>Great idea, Andrew, but I wonder if it holds water? I would think that the
>taste of two members of the same species would depend a lot more on their
>individual diet than on their race. >>

You're probably right, but since the Vargr in question a) had a stupidly 
high Xenobiology skill, b) was a powerful psionic, and c) was certifiably 
insane, I didn't argue :-)


    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:16:20 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: A new weapon for people - an idea

Christopher R Stainton wrote:
> 
> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:30:27 -0800
> From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
> Subject: Re: A new weapon for people - an idea
> 
> > Seriously though, the US Army has  laser rifle now. It can only be used
> for blinding
> > attacks, but the neat thing is the only defence is to close your eyes
> and keep them closed. It
> > can rapidly cycle through various freqs to counter polarized lenses.
> 
> >The systems are called dazzlers.  They have taken out pilots before, as
> >the Russians were fond of flashing nearby recon aircraft with them to
> >fry the pilots eyes.  Worked, but as far as I know the guys landed
> >safely.
> 
> Another use of the Russian (ex-soviet) military of lasers is in the more
> modern tanks.  They use a high powered laser for rangefinding
> capabilities, but the laser shoots farther than the tank round, so the
> would frequently use the lasers to blind enemy troops, tank commanders,
> anything.
> Or at least that was in my briefing before I rolled into Iraq.


Yeah.  Did you know that one of those "designators" will boil the skin
off your face and light your clothes on fire at fairly close range.  Not
sure that is a handheld designator, but I know USAF designator pods
will.

They will also permanently cook your retina if you survive the fire. 
USAF issuyed us laser protective visors over in the gulf, although they
probably would only work against one spectrum of light.  

This is a big issue in the USAF now.

Tom the hiver

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:32:36 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Good News for Traveller!

At 11:19 PM 1/23/97 -0500, you wrote:
>And all trav con Yes  but then put it in Huntsville I can see it now a bunch
>of Tml Gearheads and others not on the list stay till they get kicked out the
>door then a mass exodus to and I quote "a major NASA facility or astronomy
>program?"  
>(one stands up out of the group ) "behold my children the promised land"
>but that aside I vote for this event come on everybody lets see some support!

The image that came to my mind was going to Orlando for the con.. with a
trek to watch a shuttle launch.. with all the gearheads in the back
improving the design of the shuttle by adding a spinal mount.

+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:32:39 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Suppression Fire

At 11:23 PM 1/23/97 EST, you wrote:

>Actually, one could think of sniper-fire as supp.fire in the minimalist sense:
>all the excitement of 'the round with my name on it' with a lot less noise!

Not really.. a sniper won't shoot until he has a target, and that target is
going to be a worth-while one.  (Radioman, leader)  Supressive fire makes it
clear that you *will* die if you try it.. part of the effect is the noise
which makes it hard for the pinned troops to get organized.  If you pin the
guy with the radio 3 meters from the leader who can call for support.. well..

If you have a good choke point (a hallway, narrow cleft, bridge, etc.) than
one or two marksmen can provide an effective holding force.  You won't
really be supressing them, since the enemy will have the ability to try and
shoot back, but you can deny them access to their route of advance.  And
never forget that Mr. Grenade is your friend.. nothing causes morale checks
like having a metal baseball bounce into your immediate area.

+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:31:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis

> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:19:04 -0500
> From: jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block)

> But you get a better sensor picture from two small arrays with a lot of
> seperation that communicate with each other than you do with one bigger
> array.  I don't recall the exact term, but it's the technique used in
> astronomy when they have a bunch of tiny dishes rather than one big dish.

It's usually called "aperture synthesis," though a lot of other names are
used for particular flavors of the technique.  And the key realization is
that you *don't* get a "better picture" from two small separated arrays
than from one bigger array.  Aperture synthesis allows you to get (most
of) the *resolution* of a single array of diameter X using two (or usually
more) smaller arrays separated by distance X.  You still can't match the
larger array for sensitivity, though...the big one will be able to "see"
sources much fainter than what's visible to the ap-synth version.

To put it another way, resolution is a function of total cross-beam extent
of your collector; sensitivity is a function of total cross-beam area of
your collector elements.  Extent is easy; area is hard. 

It's also worthwhile noting that doing ap-synth requires that you know the
precise relative placements of the collector elements to within (at most)
one-quarter-wavelength of the emission being detected.  For radio/radar,
that's pretty easy, as the wavelengths run from a millimeter up into the
meter scale, and even at the short end, TL8 technology can put multiple
sensors on a single vecicle to the required tolerances.

However, doing ap-synth between multiple mobile platforms, maneuvering in
combat, separated by significant lightspeed delays (as has been suggested
on this thread) strikes me as highly unlikely.

> > Look as US carrier battlegroup for further info.  Travelller is great,
> > but the issue of how the Imperial Navy really works has NEVER been
> > adequately addressed.  The game system was designed around the small
> > ship, and just doesn't model the scale of efficiency that comes with
> > size.
> 
> Don't naval battlegroups coordinate defensive fire so that the whole group
> engages incoming missiles?  I've always thought that that should be the
> model for the next generation of traveller naval combat, since my players
> always seem to bring it up.

That's always been the concept.  Before Aegis, the coordination of
defensive fire was to be handled by human fire-control teams constantly
chattering back and forth between the vessels, and nobody really expected
it to work very well under a truly intensive missile attack; you'd always
end up with five defensive weapons engaging incoming missile A, while B
through E sailed in unmolested.  The Aegis system is intended to overcome
this problem by putting target selection for an entire cruiser or carrier
group under computer control, but the system has never been tested under
live-fire circumstances.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:15:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: re: Skrunge

>>SKRUNGE System (abstract)

Primary: Rhonk (Class G5 Red Dwarf, Size II)<<

You've got a contradiction in terms here. G stars are Yellow, not Red. Size
II stars are HUGE. Dwarves are tiny. Your hospitible zone you list later of 8
makes more sense if this were indeed a Size II star. I don't have my MT Ref
Manual with me (I'm on my lunch break at work) so I don't know where the H
zone is exactly. Dwarves put out so little heat that at orbit 8 the temp
would be really friggin' cold all the time. You wouldn't get anything but A
(exotic) for atmosphere if you even had an atmosphere at all.

\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:01:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Long Day's Journey: Skrunge

> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:56:03 -0500
> From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
> 
> SKRUNGE System (abstract)
> 
> Primary: Rhonk (Class G5 Red Dwarf, Size II)

A type G star isn't red; its brightness peaks around the green part of the
spectrum, and it appears yellow-white to the human eye.  Our own sun is an
example.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Size II".  If Rhonk is a G5 II in the
astronomical sense, it's a giant star, similar to Canopus.

Otherwise a very well thought out world, by the way.  Make Rhonk a K5 V or
so and you'll be in business (I have serious problems buying non-tidally
locked habitable worlds around M V stars, or I'd suggest that -- though
it's clear Skrunge is on its *way* toward tidal locking).

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:48:08 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Dreadnaughts considered harmful

At 11:19 PM 1/23/97 -0500, Joe Block wrote:

>But you get a better sensor picture from two small arrays with a lot of
>seperation that communicate with each other than you do with one bigger
>array.  I don't recall the exact term, but it's the technique used in
>astronomy when they have a bunch of tiny dishes rather than one big dish.

And then I start jamming your commo... oops.



+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:48:06 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: New Weapon - an Idea, Distribution problems

At 10:51 AM 1/24/97 +0000, Colin Hollands wrote:

>You say that heat is the big problem, why not use a super conductive
>material to lessen the resistance (surrounded in liquid nitrogen in a small
>pressure vessel, this is a suggestion), the weight shouldn't be too much of
>a problem, it would be for a Pistol at this tech level, which is why i
>didn't suggest it.

Which in turn adds more weight.  How much are you willing to haul around?  I
don't know if you've ever worked with liquid nitrogen, the bottles are heavy
due to the insulation needed.  Add to this the *very* heavy capacitor, the
lasing apparatus, the "furniture".. you are starting to look at 30 or 40
kilos of gear.  


+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:48:01 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: possible T4 errata?

At 06:28 PM 1/23/97 -0800, Tom Lane wrote:

>Although I am definately not a monster in unarmed combat, (and do not
>box my copilot on a routine basis,) I have probably killed more enemy
>troops in  than most ground pounders have seen.  I use technology to
>destroy the people that my government tells me to, from as far away as
>possible with maximum lethal force.  I am a hiver.

That makes me a Deadhead Ithklur... oh my... 

But I've yet to see an F-15 hold a hill, so we all have our place in the End
of The World As We Know It. 

>Hivers are mean-if you don't believe so, read up on the result of the
>little conflict they had with the K'Kree.  The point is getting the job
>done.

No, Hivers are efficient.  They make maximum use of economy of force.
(who'da thunk a grunt like me could use all them fancy trade-school words?)

>Now, who are the most powerful people on the planet:the burly SAS snake
>eater killing Iraqis in the swamps(former) near Basra, or the pencil
>neck geek studying for his EE class in a silo in North Dakota? 

Well, if I can get a team to your silo, breach it, and disable your ability
to launch, I win.  Specwar does train for that you know.  The British had
plans to sieze civilian targets near Soviet SRF bases and threaten to
slaughter the civilians if the forces launched.  Scary stuff.

Just out of curiosty.. what do you fly?


+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #878
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 879



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Dreadnaughts considered harmful
Re: Gridlore Technologies Delivers!
re: Whither the dreadnaught?
Eurisko
T4 second printing will be....?
Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
Ammo Cost/Mass Beta Test
January Ship Design Contest
Re: Gearhead Alert!
Re: I'm back... with the new books
Adjutant Products
Re: Trav Only Con
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #877
Distribution problems

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:36:57 -0500
From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Subject: Re: Dreadnaughts considered harmful

At 3:53 AM -0500 1/24/97, Tom Lane wrote:
>1)Bigships pack more firepower(larger spinal/more missile etc.)  In an
>equal numbers game, they should win.  They are also better sensor
>platforms, because their larger hull surface contributes significantly
>to the actual information gained by the overall fleet sensor net.  This
>is the same for small ships, but not quite to the extent.  Big ships
>also can pack more armor and shields.  I'll use a realife example:
>
>USS Mississippi could not be penetrated by and Exocet missile due to its
>armor on the hull(not the superstructure.)  As this was one of the more
>powerful weapons the Iraqis had it was a signigicant advangtage.
>
>The USS Stark was cheap and small.  It took it hard when the (Exocet?)
>hit it, and burned.

We're working from different viewpoints - I'm not talking about an equal
numbers game, but an equal cost game, ie your 5 trillion credit DN vs my 5
trillion credit squadron.

USS Stark is an example of what I try to avoid - at least with the old HG
rules, a cruiser can be made with the same armor factor as a DN, for the
same volume percentage.  The whole concept of Virus disgusted me enough
that I didn't get any TNE material, so I can't speak for FF&S.

>Admittedly, this could use some further research.  No amount of
>speculation is conclusive, but I feel it boils down to navies being
>built to do a job.  Small ships are fine for policing and patrolling,
>but when one interstellar state decides to expend its wealth building
>nigh invulnerable dreadnoughts, the state that sticks with its
>antipiracy/cruiser fleet is going to be hurting if war comes.

Except that DNs are not nigh invulnerable, and never have been.  In HG/MT,
the squadron's multiple spinal mounts will do the job quite nicely on the
DN before it can really hurt them back - if it is lucky, the DN may take
out one squadron member with a lucky critical hit before it is finished off
by her sister ships.  From what I've read on the list, things only got
worse for the big boys with FF&S.

I'll concede that one on one, a DN can take a cruiser, but cruisers and
battlecruisers are only going to be deployed in squadrons, especially in
war time, and the squadron is going to do in the DN just about every time.


Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

I went to my first computer conference at the New York Hilton about 20
years ago.  When somebody there predicted the market for microprocessors
would eventually be in the millions, someone else said, "Where are they
all going to go? It's not like you need a computer in every doorknob!"

Years later, I went back to the same hotel.  I noticed the room keys had
been replaced by electronic cards you slide into slots in the doors.

There was a computer in every doorknob.
        -- Danny Hillis

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:48:03 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Gridlore Technologies Delivers!

At 11:22 AM 1/24/97 -0500, James Garriss wrote:
>At 10:11 AM 1/24/97 -0500, Scott A. Renner wrote:

>>My first move is to disable that safety.  When I pull the trigger on a
>>weapon, I want it to *fire*.  I'll decide whether it's worth a broken
>>shoulder to get a round off, not some stupid safety.

He'll be soorrryyyy......  I once fired a Barrett .50 that had sand in the
recoil cylinder.  The recoil nearly sprained my shoulder and left a 8sq in
briuse.  This weapon is bigger.  If a PC fires it in this way in a game, he
deserves to a special reward.. especially if he rolls a Catastrophic Failure.

+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 1997 19:54:25 -0000
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzum@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: Whither the dreadnaught?

Steve Charlton wrote

>Eric Nolan wrote:
>> There is no good reason to build dreadnaughts. .  . and there never
>> was.  Even in the days of High Guard it was more efficient to have 
>> smaller (10-50 kTons rather than 100+ kTons) ships.  You got more 
>> bang for your buck.
>
 
>
>Bigger ships do deliver a good "bang for the buck," but a lot of that bang is 
>intangible in terms of your average TCS tournament.  An Empress-class 
>battlewagon provides more than just ship-to-ship firepower; she can serve as a

>command ship, carry invasion troops, serve as a carrier and (perhaps most 
>importantly) serve as a means of "Showing the Flag."
>

There must be a purpose for each naval design.  What is this design going to
accomplish.  The Traveller style dreadnaught has always been a multi-purpose
ship.  Sent to a troubled area, it can be a display of force, land troops for
various purposes, provide in system escort duty by way of carried fighters,
support ground troop operations, stay at duty station for an extended period of
time, provide help and support during natural disasters, etc.  Along with all
of this it can put up a heck of a fight in a major battle.

If your looking to outfit a run and gun quick strike force a smaller more
speciallized ship may be what your looking for.  If you want a multi-purpose
general use vessel the dreadnaught is worth taking a look at.

PZ


- ---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:41:27 -0500 (EST)
From: DMSEF@aol.com
Subject: Eurisko

Winning TCS fleet - TL 12

  Four Garter class:
TB-Garter  	TB-	K1567F3-	B41106-	34009-	1  MCr 17,584.104
   Bearing                		  C      1 	EE     7    12,000 tons
   Batteries              		  C      1 	EE     7     crew=170
Agility=4; Fuel=840; Cargo=4.3            low=170
  Note: L-Hyd drop tanks add 6000 tons of fuel and mass,change the 
agility 
to 4, and cost MCr6.01.(TB-K1344F3) The ship is designed to manuever when 
carrying up to 72,000 tons of drop tanks and one Wasp fighter.

  Four Cisor class:
BD-Cisor      	BD-	K9525F3-	E41100-	340C5-	0  MCr22,291.175
   Bearing                		  1     	11  1U     19,980 tons
   Batteries              		  1     	11  1U     crew= ?
Agility=0; Fuel=999; Cargo=19.1            low=95
  Note: L-Hyd drop tanks add 9,990 tons of fuel and mass, and cost MCr10. 
(BD- L9313F3) The ship is designed to manuever when carrying up to 29,970 
tons of drop tanks.

  Three Queller class:
BH-Queller    	BH-	K1526F3-	B41106-	34Q02-	1  MCr27,802.392
   Bearing                		  Z      1 	NN1  N      19,600 tons
   Batteries              		  Z      1 	NN1  N      crew=263
Agility=0; Fuel=1,176; Cargo=10.72      low=232; marines=200
  Note: L-hyd drop tanks add 9,800 tons of fuel and mass, and cost 
MCr9.81. 
(BH-L1314F3) The ship is designed to manuever when carrying up to 29,400 
tons of drop tanks and two fighters (one Wasp and one Bee).
		
  Seventy-five Eurisko class:
BA-Eurisko    	Ba-	K952563-	J41100-	34003-	0  MCr13,030.385
   Bearing                		  1     	11    V      11,100 tons
   Batteries  			  1     	11    V      crew=131
Agility=2; Fuel=555; Cargo=8            low=0; marines=35
   Note: L-hyd drop tanks add 5,550 tons of fuel and mass, change the 
agility to 1, and cost 5.56. (BA-K931363) The ship is designed to 
manuever 
when carrying up to 16,650 tons of drop tanks.

  Seven Wasp class:
IL-Wasp       	Il-	A90ZZF2-	J00000-	00009-	0    MCr896.75
   Bearing              			        1        1,000 tons
   Batteries   				        1        Crew=19
Agility=6; Fuel=60; Cargo=0                  low=0

  Three Bee class:
FF-Bee        	FF-	0906661-	A30000-	00001-	0     MCr127.945
   Bearing                		  1         	        2         99 tons
   Batteries              		  1         	        2         crew=2
Agility=0; Fuel=5.94; Cargo=0

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:07:04 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: T4 second printing will be....?

Anyone heard when IG will run a second printing of T4?  And by second
printing, I mean a printing that fixes all of the errors that came in the
first printing last Sept (or whenever it was.)

TIA,

 James Garriss                   http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   
 Systems Engineer, MITRE                  jpg@langley.mitre.org
      "Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently 
       high plateau."  --  Irving Fisher, 
                           Professor of Economics
                           Yale University, 1929

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:17:15 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis

Craig Berry wrote:
> 
>> However, doing ap-synth between multiple mobile platforms, maneuvering in
> combat, separated by significant lightspeed delays (as has been suggested
> on this thread) strikes me as highly unlikely.


Excellent post on synthetic aperture, but jump drive, artificial gravity
and nuclear dampers are highly unlikely too.  So were microcips in every
doorknob 20 years ago.  In 3000 years these problems have been resolved,
even though it may seem ludicrous to us.  

I think of what is possible and go three or four steps further.  The
fleets forming that array also fight as one entity, guided by jacked in
human command and nonAI AI systems the Imperium won't acknowledge as
being intelligent.  You don't want to be in a naval confrontation in my
Imperial Rebellion-it is ugly.

Further commentary requested-please see last rambling, self-righteous
dreadnought post;)

TomhiverTom

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:51:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Ammo Cost/Mass Beta Test

Hi folks,

Greg Porter, in responding a second time to the Ammo question, said:

> The question inspired me to spend the morning working on that issue. Please
> post this instead if you can, with the note that while it has been 
> tested, it has not been tested to destruction. That's a job for TMLers.
> Please forward any email comments to me personally at btrc@aol.com.

So, he'd like us to test the following system out, and send our comments 
to him at his email address (btrc@aol.com).  Here's the system:


Ammunition costs
================

None of the weapons in Traveller, Central Supply Catalog or Emporer's
Arsenal have ammunition mass and cost explicitly listed. Unless
characters are constructing an ammo dump or are so poor that reloads are
a major part of the budget, it shouldn't be a major concern. If you want
general guidelines on how much various reloads mass and cost, see below.

Mass - Ammunition is usually listed and sold in 50 round quantities. The
mass for one round is generally:
     
     ((Penetration + 1)/(13 - Penetration)-8))4 kilograms 

with a base minimum of:

     (Penetration/200)kg per round.


Because we don't actually expect you to figure this out every time, see
the following table:

(Figures are rounded to the nearest 2 digits or .1kg)

Pen.    Mass(50 Rds)   Pen.    Mass(10 Rds)   Pen.    Mass (1 Rd)
 1         .3kg         9          4.8kg       17        26kg
 2         .5kg        10           10kg       18        32kg
 3         .8kg        11           21kg       19        39kg
 4        1.0kg        12           44kg       20        47kg
 5        1.3kg        13           94kg       21        57kg
 6        2.4kg        14          124kg       22        68kg
 7        5.3kg        15          160kg       23        81kg
 8         11kg        16          200kg       24        95kg

Modifiers
APDS ammunition               x.5 mass
TL9+ ammunition (caseless)    x.5 mass
Rockets                       x1 mass (do not use caseless modifier on
                                 rockets)
HE ammunition                 x.5 mass
HEAP or HEDP ammunition       x.25 mass (use only one of HEAP or HE)
Multiple proj. (shotgun)      x2 mass
Guided weapon                 x2 mass

Example - Lets say you want 50 rounds of TL12 APDS ammunition with a
Penetration of 5. The base mass is 1.3kg, times .5 for APDS, and times
.5 again for TL9+ ammunition, for a total of .325kg, rounding to .3kg.

Example - You need to know how much each HEAP reload for a Penetration
27 TL8 cannon is. This is off the table so you have to figure it out.
The base mass is 150kg, times .25 for HEAP ammunition is 37.5kg,
rounding to 38kg.

Now, these don't exactly match the figures given for reloads for each
weapon in Emporer's Arsenal, but are close enough for most purposes. For
most applications, just use the mass of a listed weapon reload, since
when you are on the move, what you can transport is the important part.
On the other hand, if you are buying in bulk and want to ship or store
the stuff in a limited amount of volume, use the figures from this
table. Bulk ammunition has a mass of 3 metric tons per cubic meter for
shipping purposes.

Cost - Now this is more near and dear to most character's credit
accounts. The basic cost per round for most ammunition is ((Penetration
+ 2)/10)3 Cr per round. As for mass, you don't have to figure this out:

Pen.   Cost (50 Rds)      Pen.    Cost(10 Rds)      Pen.   Cost (1 Rd)
 1         Cr1.4           9         Cr13            17      Cr6.9
 2         Cr3.2           10        Cr17            18      Cr8.0
 3         Cr6.3           11        Cr22            19      Cr9.3 
 4         Cr11            12        Cr27            20      Cr11
 5         Cr17            13        Cr34            21      Cr12
 6         Cr26            14        Cr41            22      Cr14
 7         Cr36            15        Cr49            23      Cr16
 8         Cr50            16        Cr58            24      Cr18

Modifiers
Previous TL surplus ammo      x.25 cost (but makes weapon automatically
                                   unreliable)
APDS ammunition, TL8-         x6 cost
APDS ammunition, TL9+         x3 cost
TL9+ ammunition (caseless)    x2 cost
Rockets                       x4 cost (do not use caseless modifier on
                                 rockets)
HE ammunition                 x3 cost 
HEAP or HEDP ammunition       x5 cost (use only one of HE or HEAP)
Multiple proj. (shotgun)      x2 cost
Guided weapon                 x4 cost per DM+1, minimum base cost of Cr5
Proximity fuzed only          x2 cost or +Cr5, whichever is more
Buying in lots of 1000+       x.8 cost
Buying in lots of 10000+      x.6 cost
Availability/legality         x what the market will bear

Example - You need some APDS reloads for a TL8 Penetration 21 cannon.
The base cost is Cr21, times 6 for APDS ammunition is Cr126 each.

Example - You need reloads for a TL7 Penetration 19 shoulder fired HEAP
rocket launcher. The base cost is Cr9.3, times 4 for a rocket, times 5
for HEAP is Cr186 each.

Example - You have a TL13 cannon firing caseless guided HEAP rounds with
a DM+3 and a Penetration of 28. The base cost is Cr27, times 2 for
caseless ammunition, times 5 for HEAP, times 4 three times for the
guided bonus is Cr17,280 per shot. Make them count...

As with most goods, manufacturing and sale cost will vary with the local
political climate. If APDS is the normal type of ammunition used,
competition will drive the price down. If it is brand new and there are
limited manufacturing facilities, the price will be higher. Availability
of ammunition depends on three levels: Tech Level, Law Level and
Population Level. The base 2D roll for easy availability at a major
population center is the planetary Population Level+2, levels A and
above needing a roll of 12-. Each Tech Level difference between the
ammunition and the planetary Tech Level is a DM-3 to this roll. If there
is a source, but the Law Level is past the legal to own on planetary
surface  level for the weapon firing this ammunition, it requires a
Difficult (2.5D) Streewise task to find said source, with a DM-2 for
each Law Level the weapon is illegal by. A critical failure means you
get in trouble of some kind. This could be immediate, like being present
during a police raid or having the supplier think you are an informant
or spy, or delayed, like buying from a sting operation, where the
character will be busted at some later date for the recorded and
witnessed illegal transaction.

Example - Characters touch down on a TL10 world with a Population Level
of 9 and a Law Level of 4. Wisely, they leave their heavy weapons on the
ship, but someone decides they need extra ammunition for a TL11 vehicle
autocannon. The 2D availability roll is 8- because of the DM-3 for Tech
Level difference. If there is some to be found here, it is a Difficult
Streetwise roll with a DM-2 for the illegal nature of the ammunition to
get an appointment with someone who can provide it. The haggling over
the price is left to the GM and player to work out. 

This document is copyright 1997 by Greg Porter

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:27:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: January Ship Design Contest

I'm reposting this, originally posted earlier this month.
Send replies to Joe.

ENTER!! Please. With everyone involved's permission,
I may archive all the entries at my web page.

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 07:36:56 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: January Traveller Contest

Hi,

This month's contest involves starship design, and it will be judged by 
Guy "Wildstar" Garnett.  The constraints on the designs are laid out 
below.  As usual, send your entry to me (ransom@iconnect.net), and I'll 
strip the header and forward it to Guy.  As it says below, entries are 
due by January 31.  The contest winner will be announced on February 1.  
Although there are some specific design specifications laid out below, 
keep in mind that Guy is the sole judge of what constitutes a winning 
vessel, and that his decisions are final.  Oh, and please put "contest" 
in the subject line of your entry so I don't miss it. :)

The prize for this contest is a copy of _Central Supply Catalog_ (but if 
you want another book - say, if M0 is out by the time the contest is over 
- - - the winner can negotiate for another book after winning).


- - -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Ship Design Contest!

You play the role of the chief designer of a major shipyard.  You have to
respond to the Scout Service's request for proposals (below) with a complete
ship design for a vessel that meeds the mission requirements.  If it's
impossible to meet the requirements, the ship should meet as many as possible,
and the notes should explain which ones weren't met, and why.

You can design the ship using either QSDS or SSDS, but be sure to note which
system was used, so that the designs can be checked for accuracy.  Double
check your math, because illegal designs may be disqualified.

There's no need for deckplans; the designs will be judged solely on the USP
and the accompanying descriptive text.

The Scout Service assumes that the ship's active lifetime will be 50 years,
with at least one refit to update equipment before the ship is retired.  They
will judge the total cost of operating the ship for 50 years (including
purchase price, maintainance, and crew costs).  The lowest-cost ship that
meets all of the requirements will probably win the competition.

All designs should be suitable for Milieu 0.  Since the IISS is an Imperial
service, equipment up to TL-12 can be used.  Small craft and vehicles
can be custom-designed for this ship, or standard designs can be
specified (from the basic rulebook, or from _Starships_ or the _Central Supply
Catalog_).

Be sure that your notes and other descriptive text points out the unique
features of your design.  Be creative!

Day 031 is January 31st, so don't wait!


Agency: Imperial Interstellar Scout Service, Bureau of Ships
Request for Proposal: IISS/BuShips RFP-90037/03x7

The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service, Office of Exploratrion, has issued
requirement number MIL-TD/41 for an exploration and recontact starship.
BuShips requests that all interested shipyards submit detailed proposals that
meet this requirement no later than Day 031.  An IISS evaluation team will
examine the proposals, and announce the winer by Day 032.  The successful
design will be practical to construct with current starship building
technology and shipyards, meet all of the requirements listed below, and
have the lowest full-lifecycle costs to the IISS.  The evaluation team will
take into consideration any special features of the design, and will also
include servicability, habitability, and potential growth in their
evaluation.

Requirement: IISS/OffExp MIL-TD/41

The Office of Exploration has an immediate requirement for starships that can
carry a survey and recontact team of six to eight specialists (in addition to
the crew required for the safe navigation of the ship) and their equipment of
up to 16 displacement tons.

The ship must have an additional cargo capacity of 1 displacement ton per
person (crewmember and specialist) to store additional supplies and
comsumables for a long-duration voyage.

The ship must be capable of a 2-parsec Jump, and 1G maneuver performance.

The ship must be armed, and carry a gunner as part of the crew.

The ship must be capable of wilderness refueling, including the purification
of raw fuel.  If the ship is not capable of skimming, it may meet this
requirement by carrying small craft that can skim the required amount of fuel
in 24 hours of operations.

The ship must be capable of landing on undeveloped planets, including
NOE (Nap-Of-the-Earth) flight.  If the ship itself is unstreamlined, it may
meet this requirement by carrying small craft that can deliver the
specialists and at least half their gear to a planetary surface (6 to 8
persons and 8 dtons, in addition to the crew of the craft).  This gear may
include a small vehicle.

The craft's primary purpose is long-range exploration and recontact.  Due
to the extended duration of these missions, the quality of the quarters
aboardship will be important to maintaining crew efficency.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 97 23:12:49 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Re: Gearhead Alert!

	
>BTW, you mentioned SW ships that are 2,000 meters in length.  Here are a
>couple of approximations for ships of that size.

Actually, the SW RPG shows an Imperial-class Star Destroyer (might as well
start with the classic) as being 1,600 meters long, in a wedge
configuration.  Using FF&S to figure the hull size, I get a base hull
length of
		1600 / 2.5 (the LM for Wedge config) = 640 meters.

Since FF&S hull sizes are based on a sphere of a diameter equal to the base
length, the volume of the hull is about 
		320^3 * pi * 4/3 = 137,258,277 cubic meters. (wow, that's a lot)

Converting this to standard Displacement tons at 14 kl per Dton, I get
		137,258,277 / 14 = 9,804,162 Dtons.  Round it to 9.8 million tons.

Its external dimensions (based on a pyramidal wedge) work out to
	Volume = 1/3 b * h
	Length = 1600 meters
	Area of base = 257,359 square meters
	Length of each base edge = ~507 meters
	Base w:h ratio = 2:1 (guessing)
		Height = ~358 meters
		Width = ~717 meters

That's a damn big ship.  I'm pretty sure the math is accurate; if anyone
finds any errors please tell me.  I haven't gotten around to actually
/building/ the thing yet, though.  Good luck to anyone willing to try.
		




- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\      "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________
        odysseus@novia.net
  http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:38:26 +0100 (MET)
From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: I'm back... with the new books

On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Trent Smith wrote:
[...]
>      Since resubbing this afternoon, I read that IG from now on is going to use
> professional graphics and layout people, which strikes me as very good news. 
> In two out of three of these books, the content is there, and just needs to be
> presented more effectively.  I'm still guardedly optimistic.
>      What's everyone else's take?

I'm still waiting to have CSC and AA arrive over here in my local shop :-}
I was a little shocked when I looked at the 1997 product list at the IG
website.  While an impressive amount of stuff is planned the prices seem
to be excessive (everything is priced at $20+, isn't it).  Also I got the
impression that most supplements will be in the range of 100-110 pages.  I
hope that my memory is failing me but for these prices I expect glossy,
full-color supplements.  Nothing else probably could justify these
excessive prices.  I'm really curious about how Traveller will fare in
1997.

30000 sold rulebooks sounds awfully high.  Maybe they were sold to
distributors.  Judging from what I can see about Traveller sales over here
in Germany I'd bet that not more than 10000 rulebooks actually were sold
to humans.  This might show up in further orders by distributors in a
couple of monsters if shops notice that the stuff is sitting on the
shelves (I'm still the only person who bought a Traveller rulebook in my
local area... and the shop has a lot of customers of all tastes and
ages... pretty frightening).

Thomas Biskup.

P.S.: Did anyone have a problem with the Traveller website?  The last two
times I visited the new site I both times had the problem that I received
black background and black text for most of the stuff (product
announcements, etc.).  This happened both under Netscape 2.something under
Windows and Netscape 3.0 under SunOS.  It's somewhat annoying having to
read the HTML sources to get the information :-)

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:52:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Adjutant Products

Discount Games has some "Traveller" products from Adjutant that I've never
heard of.  

Titles like;

Grav Vehicles
Infantry Weapons
Waterborne Vehicles

I think
They are CT based products.  Anyone have a recommendation?  They're only 4
buck apeice.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:47:14 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Re: Trav Only Con

>Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:19:50 -0500 (EST)
>From: TBSVT@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Good News for Traveller!
>
>And all trav con Yes  but then put it in Huntsville I can see it now a bunch
>of Tml Gearheads and others not on the list stay till they get kicked out the
>door then a mass exodus to and I quote "a major NASA facility or astronomy
>program?"  
>(one stands up out of the group ) "behold my children the promised land"
>but that aside I vote for this event come on everybody lets see some support!

Tell me a date and location and I will:

   1. Find a babysitter for the trip
   2. Request the days for vacation
   3. Find a way to get there.

I'm all for this.  Hey, I may even work on a Vargr or Hiver costume to wear. <g>

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:47:10 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #877

>> Registry Tons actually varry from country to country, but here in the US
>> it is 100 Cu. Ft.
>
>I didn't know they vary from country to country.  All the numbers I've seen
>have been in US or British publications, and I think they both use 100
>cuft/reg ton.  And thanks for correcting me, it is Registry Ton not
>Register Ton.


Well, different countries measure different parts of the vessel to register
it.  A lot of places still just use the cargo volume to calculate registry
tons.  This is real nice for real world purposes, but it doesn't help us any. :)

>> Just a side note to those of you who keep up, the company I work for
>> could build a 1,000 Reg Tn. ship in 9-12 months and that would be the
>> same as a 200 dt Traveller ship. 
>
>Wouldn't you just *love* to actually be building jump capable Free Traders?
>;->

I might even give up programming and go be a welder if they were.  Hey, at
least I'd get paid decent. :)
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

Michael Dorn
^^^^^^^^^^^^

I didn't know!  A ST Traveller?  <grin>

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 16:57:27 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Distribution problems

On 01/24/97 at 10:51 AM,  Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
said:

> Last night i went to my local store to get Starships(regardless of bad
> press), CSC and Aliens, to be told 'T4 and Starships we sell, but have
> run out, no idea when we'll get the next delivery, CSC and aliens, not
> heard of them, there out in the states you say,

I've had the same problem here in the States.  Game stores either had (or
had heard of) T4 & Starships, but not CSC or Aliens.  The comics stores had
heard of T4, but didn't stock it.  None were interested in doing a special
order either!  

I did get a copy of Starships from my NSFLGS (not so friendly local game
store), but it was like pulling teeth to get it from them.  

I asked the clerk if they had a copy, he said "Yes, but only one.", and
just looked at me.

After realizing that he wasn't going to get it, tell me where it was, or
anything else, I asked, "Well, can I see it?"

"Um, OK.", he said reluctantly and rummaged around UNDER the counter
finally pulling out a copy, "It's really expensive, you know."  It was
pretty obvious that he didn't *really* want to sell it, but I bought it
anyway! <g>

Getting me to buy from those guys again won't be easy.

I finally found a Friendly Cards and a Very Few Games Store (FCVFG) hidden
away downtown.  I was shopping for a birthday card when I *discovered* a
dice display and followed my nose <g> to the back of the store.  There I
found some wargames, a rack of TSR stuff, a few GURPS books, a handfull of
old TW2k books, and 3 old dog-eared _Challenge_ magazines.

"Oooo!", thinks I, "Maybe they've got CSC hidden around here
somewhere."

So, heading back to the cash register, I asked the clerk about T4. She
hadn't heard of it.  The last she'd heard GDW went belly up, and Traveller,
TW2k, et al went down the drain.  

"MT didn't sell, so they'd stopped carrying much of the Traveller stuff
years ago.", she said

"But,",she continued, "if our distributer has what you're looking for we'll
special order it for you."

She called her distributor, who told her they had plenty of copies of CSC,
and they could get it here in 2 days.  

I said, "Do it!", they did, and I'm the proud owner of CSC!  :->

BTW, this FCVFG is now *my* store.  Not only did they go out of their way
to find me a copy of something they had never heard of, they gave me a 10%
discount on it when I paid for it!  The next week I got the same store to
special order GURPS Vehicles II for me, took 3 days and they gave me the (I
realize now, standard for games) 10% discount.  

The moral of the story is, find a friendly store with helpful and
intellegent employees and see if they will special order you a copy of
whatever you're looking for.  


Eris

ps.  As soon as First Survey and M0 hit the distribution channels I'll be
heading back to my FCVFG store to special order copies for me!  I don't
know if I'll be able to talk them into *stocking* T4 stuff, but I just
might.  ;->

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #879
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, January 25 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 880



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: T4 second printing will be....?
Re: suppression fire
Re: possible T4 errata?
Re: January Ship Design Contest
[none]
Re: Dreadnaughts considered harmful
Re: Distribution problems
[none]
Re: Gearhead Alert!
Re: TL of 2nd and 3rd Imperiums
re:  Whither the dreadnaught?
DNs and Cruisers
Re: January Ship Design Contest
Re: Eurisko
Re: Distribution problems
Whither the dreadnaught?
Re: Dreadnaughts considered harmful
Re: Adjutant Products
Re: Eurisko
The Commander's Triumphant Return 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 17:18:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: T4 second printing will be....?

On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, James Garriss wrote:

> Anyone heard when IG will run a second printing of T4?  And by second
> printing, I mean a printing that fixes all of the errors that came in the
> first printing last Sept (or whenever it was.)

No, there is no established date for a version 4.1 of Traveller.  There 
will be a version 4.1, but no date has been set.  

As soon as a date for that, and for the new version of _Starships_, has 
been set, it will be announced on the web site as well as here on TML.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:21:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Brawley <brawleyj@UWSTOUT.EDU>
Subject: Re: suppression fire

[snipped]
>Well, in all actuality sniper fire has a different effect than when an
>M-60 is spraying bullet after bullet in your general vacinity.
>When a shot is heard (as in from a sniper), you either:
>Drop where you are and find cover
>Run like hell until you find cover (of course only staying up for 3
>seconds at a time)
>or start unloading everything you have in the general area you believe
>the sniper to be in (this is really only effective at squad and platoon
>level).
>
>Not really.. a sniper won't shoot until he has a target, and that target is
>going to be a worth-while one.  (Radioman, leader)  Supressive fire makes it
>clear that you *will* die if you try it.. part of the effect is the noise
>which makes it hard for the pinned troops to get organized.  If you pin the
>guy with the radio 3 meters from the leader who can call for support.. well..
>
>If you have a good choke point (a hallway, narrow cleft, bridge, etc.) than
>one or two marksmen can provide an effective holding force.  You won't
>really be supressing them, since the enemy will have the ability to try and
>shoot back, but you can deny them access to their route of advance.  And
>never forget that Mr. Grenade is your friend.. nothing causes morale checks
>like having a metal baseball bounce into your immediate area.
>
[end snip]

Now that we've all agreed what supressive fire is and isn't, and what it can
and can't do; does anybody have any models or ideas of how it can be
implemented in traveller??  I believe that that was what the original writer
of this thread wanted to get at.  -IMHO

Like what are some methods that other systems use, and how they can be
converted over to traveller.  Or how a supressive fire task might be handled
in traveller.

For example, would the PC's and NPC's just roll a willpower check (at
different difficulties depending on if it's a grenade, a HMG, or a mini-gun,
etc.)  Or might they roll a combination of attribute checks???  

What I'm really asking is if anybody has a playtested style they found
worked, or if there has been errata (sp?) written on this, etc.   Some
system that maintains game balance...

Thanks in advance,

Jeff Brawley

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:11:56 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: possible T4 errata?

Doug Berry asked what I fly.

I'll bet you guessed-I am a B-52/B-1 driver currently training in the
mighty T-37.  I believe in airpower, however--

No air force will ever hold ground or completely win a war, unlike what
some of the USAF's overzealous leadership seems to believe.  We will
kill a lot of people, but I don't believe we can win a war, unless it is
completely defensive. Maybe not even then.  Not enough staying power.

I am a big believer in combined arms warfare, with each component doing
its share to complement the combat environment.  I think there will be
few major conflicts where aircraft will not be of great use, but
anything below that the air vehicle takes on marginal utility.  

Just cause I'm a littl' ole hiver doesn't mean I don't enjoy the company
of a big, corndog eating Ithklur;)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:49:08 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: January Ship Design Contest

        Just out of curiosity, are we allowed multiple entries?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:49:01 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: [none]

DED wrote:

>
>>>SKRUNGE System (abstract)
>
>Primary: Rhonk (Class G5 Red Dwarf, Size II)<<
>
>You've got a contradiction in terms here. G stars are Yellow, not Red. Size
>II stars are HUGE. Dwarves are tiny. Your hospitible zone you list later of 8
>makes more sense if this were indeed a Size II star. I don't have my MT Ref
>Manual with me (I'm on my lunch break at work) so I don't know where the H
>zone is exactly. Dwarves put out so little heat that at orbit 8 the temp
>would be really friggin' cold all the time. You wouldn't get anything but A
>(exotic) for atmosphere if you even had an atmosphere at all.


        Good... I was hoping somebody would pick out any glaring errors; I
was going by the MegaTraveller Referee's manual, and was unable to find any
information on what the size classes and orbits actually meant.  That's
where the Size II Orbit 8 comes from.  As far as the G classification goes,
I was basing myself on this rather pop astronomy book that claimed that
Barnard's Star was precisely that...

        If you could tell me what the proper spectral class, size class and
habitable orbit number for something analogous to Barnard's, I'd be
grateful.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:21:48 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Dreadnaughts considered harmful

Joe,

You are assuming that a cruiser can have the same practical armor as a
dreadnought.  Maybe in a game, but not so in reality.  That is why
dreadnoughts came into existence-to fend off heavy guns of other big
ships with big armor.

BTW, this debate has been raging 45 odd years in reality and 3000 years
in Imperial space, and there really isn't a definite answer.  I don't
think we can come up with one, either, because reality is really the
only way to decide the truth.

Any game is necessarily a model of your desired effect-I go for the
WWI/WWII appraoch, preferring the feel of enourmous ships with mind
numbing power.  You seem to like the feel of loose fleets of deadly
cruisers.  I RUN a crusier squadron in my game, and feel the huge power
gradient between cruiser and battleshipmen.  I think it adds a lot of
spice.  And I have yet to prove a bunch of cruisers can defeat a a
single dreadnought.  I'll get back to you on that after the dust
settles!

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:43:31 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Distribution problems

On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> ps.  As soon as First Survey and M0 hit the distribution channels I'll be
> heading back to my FCVFG store to special order copies for me!  I don't
> know if I'll be able to talk them into *stocking* T4 stuff, but I just
> might.  ;->

Let us know if you're able to, Eris. :)  I feel as though I'm banging my 
head against a wall with a few of the stores local to me.  Maybe you can 
help me with my technique. :)  I've told them how well it's selling, I've 
told them which stores are selling it in the area and recommended the 
call and simply ask how its selling.  I've recommended they ask their 
distributor how well its selling.  None of these things have helped any 
more than my passionate pleas for stocking it simply because I'm a 
customer who wants it.  They'll special order it, but they won't keep it 
on the shelf to sell to those who don't know about it yet.  Sigh.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:49:04 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: [none]

Craig Berry wrote:

>
>> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:56:03 -0500
>> From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
>>
>> SKRUNGE System (abstract)
>>
>> Primary: Rhonk (Class G5 Red Dwarf, Size II)
>
>A type G star isn't red; its brightness peaks around the green part of the
>spectrum, and it appears yellow-white to the human eye.  Our own sun is an
>example.
>
>I'm not sure what you mean by "Size II".  If Rhonk is a G5 II in the
>astronomical sense, it's a giant star, similar to Canopus.
>
>Otherwise a very well thought out world, by the way.  Make Rhonk a K5 V or
>so and you'll be in business (I have serious problems buying non-tidally
>locked habitable worlds around M V stars, or I'd suggest that -- though
>it's clear Skrunge is on its *way* toward tidal locking).

        Many thanks...  It just occurred to me that rather than rely on a
table of star data in the back of a book, I should have just looked at the
nice big full-page full-colour Hertzsprung-Russell diagram in the middle.
D'oh!

        Quick consultation of said H-R diagram reveals that a K5 to M0 star
would indeed be the closest to what I had in mind.  I will issue an errata
notice to my players :).

        And as far as tidal lock goes, you're right... that's exactly what
I had in mind.  Small dim plant slowly spinning down...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:31:21 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Gearhead Alert!

Jeff Kazmierski wrote:
> > 
> Actually, the SW RPG shows an Imperial-class Star Destroyer (might as well
> start with the classic) as being 1,600 meters long, in a wedge
> configuration.  Using FF&S to figure the hull size, I get a base hull

> Its external dimensions (based on a pyramidal wedge) work out to
>         Volume = 1/3 b * h
>         Length = 1600 meters
>         Area of base = 257,359 square meters
>         Length of each base edge = ~507 meters
>         Base w:h ratio = 2:1 (guessing)
>                 Height = ~358 meters
>                 Width = ~717 meters
> 
> That's a damn big ship.  I'm pretty sure the math is accurate; if anyone
> finds any errors please tell me.  I haven't gotten around to actually
> /building/ the thing yet, though.  Good luck to anyone willing to try.


Thats my prblem, Jeff.  I was pretty content with the current Traveller
dimensions until my brother did some of these calculations based on
approximate size from MT art.  The ships came out a lot bigger than
200,000-850,000 tons, and I wanted some gearheads to check the math. 
Basically if you stay with previous ships sizes, the art depicting some
of the biggies in the Trav Imperial universe is wrong.  

What guides the game, vision or numbers?  I say vision, which the
numbers should model for usage.  Some may disagree, but I have a
particular need to get this one right.  If Trav needs to boost the
systems power to describe these ships I need to know.  Traveller needs
vision to get new players, and keep the old ones interested.  I'm going
to try to provide it, but to prevent another Starships I need support
from the gearheads and a starship combat system that works at the
massive end of the scale.

Tom Lane, hiveratlarge

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:09:48 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: TL of 2nd and 3rd Imperiums

Hans Rancke-Madsen writes: 

>I've had a chance to page through a copy of CSC and it appears that
>these relics are salvaged from derelict Rule of Man ships. The notes
>claims that the technology is understood by the Syleans, and that they
>just don't have the technological support to produce them. This implies
>that RoM was at least borderline TL14, which is _a mistake_ (Or, since
>CSC is an official publication, I suppose I have to call it a change of
>the canon). 

   I'm afraid we are faced yet again with a bit of "IG Revisionism".  As
it is a result of a basic ignorance of established canon (as are most of
their story slips), my tendency would be to either to declare the number
'14' errata (which means that they meant to say '13', which would fit
canon), or to just ignore the item altogether (explaining it away as
something that the Third Imperium develops later--sorry, wrong book).
Hopefully the inclusion of Marc Miller in the creative process will
eliminate similar mistakes in the future.  

   You cannot simply declare previous canon as "one interpretation of
events" (as I have heard someone who may or may not be associated with
IG say previously).  That is a cop out, designed to allow people avoid a
lot of what they consider to be "unnecessary" reading before they start
writing for a previous storyline.  I wonder if George Lucas considers a
detailed knowledge Star Wars optional when an author proposes writing an
officially sanctioned novel involving the characters from that
universe?  I already know what the answer is, and so do the members of
this list.

Regards,

Harold




I
personally think it is a bad change since another canonical fact is that
the Imperium dosen't reach TL 13 until Year 300 and TL 14 until... (was
it 700?). Making the RoM TL 14 and the Sylean Federation borderline TL
13
is, IMO, a Bad Idea.

Besides, isn't one of the points of doing Mileau Zero to make it
different
from the other Traveller settings? Why then erase as much of the
difference
as possible this way?



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:54:46 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re:  Whither the dreadnaught?

At 02:16 PM 1/24/97 +0000, you wrote:
> One thing which seems to have been missed about this is the fact that
>larger hulls can have porportionatley more armor then smaller ones... That
>makes a big diffrence when you can shrug off spinal shots..
>bri <bri@teleport.com>
>

I noticed in working through the BR damage rules that most of the MILITARY
ships listed had hull armor that would barely, if at all, stand up to the
damage done by their own class of weapons. 

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that one of the design criteria used
for the classic Terran Wet Navy dreadnaughts was to be tough enough to
survive MULTIPLE HITS BY THEIR OWN MAIN GUNS. The Missouri was designed to
take multiple 16 inch shells, I belive at 2.5 tons of HE per shell. 

Perhaps we need to develop some kind of easy, rule of thumb test for
projected survivability in combat?

Basic idea:

'Light' accepts hit from standard turret weapon at given tech level at long
range without penetration.

'Medium' accepts hit from standard bay weapon at given tech level at long
range without penetration.

'Heavy' accepts hit from standard spinal mount at given tech level at long
range without penetration. This last one creates an interesting split when
the tech level shifts spinal mounts from particle to meason. 

It isn't always who shoots first, fastest or most, but who is still standing
when the shooting is done.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:30:50 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: DNs and Cruisers

Tom Lane wrote:
> Look forward to further discussion on this.  I would like to see a way a
> cruiser can really make a difference, as it would help my players a bit
> in theri upcoming campaign.

All these posts have led me to ask a question:

What is the role of a "battlecruiser"?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:41:23 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: January Ship Design Contest

On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

> 
>         Just out of curiosity, are we allowed multiple entries?

Sure, you can enter as many times as you like.  The only catch is, each 
subsequent entry supercedes the previous ones.  In other words, Wildstar 
will only consider your latest entry when deciding who wins. ;)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:57:46 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Eurisko

bri <bri@teleport.com> wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone out there knew where I could find a copy of the
> aforementinoed design?

I see that <DMSEF@aol.com> has found and posted them.  I may be one of
the few here who's read Lenat's paper in _Artificial Intelligence_. It
must be the only academic paper where JTAS gets "J. Travellers Aid Soc."
as a footnote!  JTAS originally published the designs way back when.
If you're interested in Lenat's paper, check out _Artificial Intelligence_, 
volume 21, pp. 73-83; the paper is longer, but that's the part most of
you would be interested in.

EURISKO was an experiment in AI written in Lisp.  It didn't just work
to find heuristics for TCS fleet design, but also to play other games
and solve various other problems.  It spent about 1300 CPU hours (in
the early '80s) designing and fighting; one round took two to twenty
minutes.  Heuristic culling was apparently not ideal; Lenat intervened
to cull "obviously counterproductive" rules every few hours.

It was good at finding loopholes and anomalies in the rules.  One 
evil tactic it stumbled on was to build a single, unarmored, very
fast, very small, *very* agile ship with an incredible computer; 
it turned out to be unhittable.  As old timers know, _High Guard_
had you form ships into the Line, which fought, and the Reserve,
which was screened and not attackable.  If the Line was getting
too badly damaged, EURISKO put the unhittable ship in the Line and 
the rest of the fleet in the Reserve to repair.  The Line was not
breakable, technically, and the Reserve was safe.  In later years,
battlefield repair was not allowed.  :)  This is probably the "Wasp"
class escort posted.  Another rule limited the use of drop tanks;
look at the designs and see what use was made of them.

Another silly tactic was to have one, count it, one laser turret.
It wasn't a serious weapon.  It was meant to be destroyed by enemy
fire, instead of taking out a *useful* battery.  Another loophole.

EURISKO was matched primarily against 20 ship fleets with low armor,
high agility, lasers, and spinal mounts.  We're basically talking
about a BatRon like those you could assemble out of Battle Rider.
In fact, EURISKO itself started by testing fleets like that one.

It went with a different model.  EURISKO first fielded 96 ships,
most with only agility 2 and heavy armor.  One was the super-agile 
boat.  The medium-sized ships with low armor, minimal drives, and a 
huge PAWS spinal mount were meant to hunt the most agile enemy ships, 
as accelerators had the best chance to-hit.  The bulk of the fleet 
consisted of 75 small, armored missile cruisers without spinal
weapons, meant to overwhelm the enemy with waves of fire.

It came up with some interesting heuristics that Lenat mentioned,
some of which may still be valid:

"If the weapon can't hit at Long range, it's not worth having too
 many of them."  (The fusion gun lesson.)
"Fusion guns can be effectively armored against.  Once this is
 discovered, ship armor will rapidly be increased to defeat them".
 (The other fusion gun lesson.)
"Armor is more useful than agility."  (Check out the configuration
 of the Eurisko-class ships; to get the armor factor as high as it
 could, EURISKO used buffered planetoid hulls.)
"More small ships are often better than few big ships."  (I think
 this had to do with increased redundancy and to-hit difficulty.)

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:55:01 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Distribution problems

Joseph E. Walsh wrote:
  None of these things have helped any
> more than my passionate pleas for stocking it simply because I'm a
> customer who wants it.  They'll special order it, but they won't keep it
> on the shelf to sell to those who don't know about it yet.  Sigh.
> 
> -Joe


Think a flashy poster design would help?  One with a lot of starships in
combat blasting each other?  Might get some attention.

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 18:50:39 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Whither the dreadnaught?

On 01/24/97 at 01:10 PM,  Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net> said:

> I ask myself why dreadnoughts came into being in the first place, if they
> were so "useless."  At the time from the late 1890's to 1914, ships were
> the only masters of the sea.  A cruiser historically could not stand in
> the line of battle, as the larger guns(equalling range and firepower) the
> dreadnoughts carried would simply chew them to pieces while the cruiser
> shells bounced off the dreadnoughts armor(if they could even get in
> range.)  Ships got larger for BOTH prestige and real physical reasons, as
> in wartime smaller less armored/gunned ships would lose.  

We can make Dreadnaughts the preferred weapon platforms, but only if we
structure the environment correctly. 

The things that made the Dreadnaught the "queen of ocean" from 1890 to 1940
were relative speed, armor, size and range of weapon fire.

The Dreadnaughts were slow, but no less than 1/2 the speed of the fastest
platform packing weapons that could hurt them.  Airplanes changed that,
they were 10 to 20 times faster.

The Dreadnaughts carried an armor belt, and an armored
superstructure that could take a tremendous pounding from naval gunfire and
keep fighting, lesser ships went under with a few hits from the big guns. 
Aerially delivered bombs changed that.
Dive bombers delivered "ship killer" bombs straight down on the ship's
decks...their weakest spot.  Torpedo bombers sped in 10 to 20 times faster
than the fastest torpedo boat delivering explosives that attacked below the
Dreadnaught's mighty armor belt.

Due to their size, Dreadnaughts carried many redundant systems. Multiple
boilers in multiple engine rooms, knock one out, it kept going.  Several
screws, you can slow it down, but stopping it's very hard.  Several
well-armored magazines, hitting one (and penetrating the armor) would
destroy a smaller ship, the dreadnaught was damaged but keep fighting. 
Multiple control rooms, for Fleet Control if nothing else.  Larger crews,
to make up for loses, and to carry out more and faster damage control. 
Smaller ships just didn't have the space for all this!  I don't think this
has really changed that much.  Large ships still have these advantages.

Dreadnaughts, because of their size, were able to mount naval guns much
larger, and longer ranged, than any other ship. Smaller ships couldn't
mount those guns, or match the range.  Advances in missile and bomb
technology and delivery systems changed this. 

If you want Dreadnaughts to play a dominate role in T4 naval
systems, then you need to duplicate the things that made them
dominate, pre-war:

Speed:  All ships (and weapons platforms) need to have similar top speeds,
or accelerations anyway.  A Dreadnaught should be slower than a Destroyer
or Frigate, but we can't have a situation where *fighter/bombers* can fly
rings around the big ships.

Armor and Size:  Armor needs to make a big difference, particularly in the
number of hits a ship can take before it loses effectiveness. A Dreadnaught
must be able to take a real pounding and keep
fighting, while Cruisers can be taken out with a few hits from a
Dreadnaught's *main* weapons.  Increasing size should make critical hits
increasingly less likely, and allow a ship to take more and bigger
"punches" while continuing to hit back.

Big Gun:  There needs to be a, "big gun" weapon that only real ships can
mount.  This weapon's effective range needs to be increase with increased
size and increased power.  This way a Frigate's "big gun" can outrange and
outgun a Destroyer "big gun."  A Cruiser's "big gun" can outrange and
outgun a Frigate's, and a Dreadnaught's "big gun" outranges and outguns
anything short of a Shore Battery! Whatever this "big gun" is, it must be
mountable only on larger ships, fighters need not apply.  Well, at least, a
fighter's weapons should be totally ineffective against Dreadnaughts and
Cruisers, and only marginally effective against Frigates and Destroyers.

Can we create these conditions?

Do we want to?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:21:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Dreadnaughts considered harmful

> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:48:08 -0800
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> 
> At 11:19 PM 1/23/97 -0500, Joe Block wrote:
> >But you get a better sensor picture from two small arrays with a lot of
> >seperation that communicate with each other than you do with one bigger
> >array.  I don't recall the exact term, but it's the technique used in
> >astronomy when they have a bunch of tiny dishes rather than one big dish.
> 
> And then I start jamming your commo... oops.

I can't imagine ship-to-ship aperture synthesis working before about TL14,
more likely 15 or higher; figuring out the relative position of two ships
separated by 100,000 km to within a centimeter or so is a *tough* job.
Doing it when both ships are accelerating is even tougher.  It becomes
impossible if the two ships don't continuously alert one another on
planned maneuvers a few seconds ahead of time, and even then fails if the
actual maneuvers diverge by more than a few thousandths of a percent from
what was planned -- which puts a rather heavy burden on both the pilot and
the engineering staff!

If, however, you decide to try the trick anyway, you'll have meson
communicators, which are effectively jamming-proof.

By the way, the same positional-determination problem is why I can't buy
the whole Project Longbow concept.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:27:20 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Adjutant Products

At 04:52 PM 1/24/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Discount Games has some "Traveller" products from Adjutant that I've never
>heard of.  
>
>Titles like;
>
>Grav Vehicles
>Infantry Weapons
>Waterborne Vehicles
>
>I think
>They are CT based products.  Anyone have a recommendation?  They're only 4
>buck apeice.

These are actually designs for Striker.. pretty weak, but you might get some
ideas.

+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:11:02 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Eurisko

Steven Bonneville wrote:
> "More small ships are often better than few big ships."  (I think
>  this had to do with increased redundancy and to-hit difficulty.)


Neato:but is it real world or has the game modelled a phantasm? GIGO.
Again this is a question, not a statement.  I do believe more in big,
armored ships, but wargames provide valuable insights.

Hiver

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:56:54 -0500
From: Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: The Commander's Triumphant Return 

The following is a Press release from Planet X

"Good gentles all, I am glad to announce that the core transfer was
successful and the old core was jetisoned and destroyed at midnight
GST.  The new site is completely owned and oporated by me personaly, so
no more "suprises".  Planet X will contine its fine tradition of being a
plcae for gearheads by producing new weaponry, new starships, and of
course ne gadgets!  Also, adventure ideas, new races and classes will be
posted at the bar.  Eventualy  a cool VRML site will be added. Now that
I own this location, i can even do CGI scripts!

As 1997 will see the Renaisance of Traveller, Star Wars(its inspiration)
and the popularity of space travel, so will Planet X be a part of this
Renaisance."

>PLUG MODE OFF<
One further note, why is this considered my return?  Because this is the
same Account/Address  I had back in 1995, when I just started out on the
net, man was I green as hell back then...netwise.  Some of you old-time
TML'ers may remember me from back then,  I was the one who practicaly
started the thread/flame about "Jump-Torpedoes"  for TNE! );-> (Impish
Grin)

Yes the ol' Commander is back...
and with a Vengance!
- -- 

Commander X, Count of Dimension X, ODR,...etc...
(cmdrx@magicnet.net <or> bprankard@theiia.org)
Creator, Maintainor, and Webmeister of "Planet X"
(www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #880
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, January 25 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 881



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

CSC Errata/Questions
Re: Whither the dreadnaught?
Re: DNs and Cruisers
Re: Dreadnaughts considered harmful
Re: Whither the dreadnaught?
White dwarf stars
Classic Traveller Auction #5
Appalled at CSC!!
Appalled at CSC!!
1st impressions of JTAS25
More CSC Errata/Questions
Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
Re: Dreadnaughts considered harmful
Re: DNs and Cruisers
Re: Tech Level 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:22:11 -0600
From: "sinbad@dfw.net" <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: CSC Errata/Questions

Sophonts Intellegent or Semi-Intelligent <G>,

Item 1:
In CSC page 54 the volume factors table shows a 4.0 Displacement having a
USP of 7, but on page 74 under paragragph "Agility" there is a small table
that shows that a Displacement of 4 having a USP of 6....Which table is the
more correct if there is one?

Item 2:
On page 68 under the Vehicle Communicator Table a Far Orbit has cost of
90KCr and a volume of .01 at T-14. But on the same page under paragragph
Communicators it states "communicators ...., and a cost of .5MCr per
1m3,...." Lets see table says 90KCr, but the math says cost is .01m3 X
.5MCr =.005MCr or 5KCr. That is a little price difference maybe 90KCr
versus 5KCr.

Item 3:
Where is the mass per 1m3 for sensors? I have not found it on in the
sensors section or on the worksheet. I have used the same mass as
communicators.

Item 4:
Page 68 under communicators it states that vehicle comms "These numbers are
for full capability starship-equilavent units,... Does this mean that
vehicle comms are or are not equal to military grade? To me it does seem to
be very clear?

Item 5:
page 69 Laser Comms do not get the options of Directional Antenna and
Direction Finder, but Maser Comms seemly can.???

Item 6:
I take a Disp 100t, radically slope all surfaces except top and bottom, its
remaining volume puts it in the Disp of 20t. Its crosssectional area is
closer to Disp 20 rather than 100. This was also an issue in Striker I.
Would not sloping increase the surface area available?

Sinbad Sam
AI Virus Black Curtain Rod Holder
sinbad@dfw.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:17:01 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Whither the dreadnaught?

Garry Ward wrote:
> 
> At 02:16 PM 1/24/97 +0000, you wrote:
> > One thing which seems to have been missed about this is the fact that
> >larger hulls can have porportionatley more armor then smaller ones... That
> >makes a big diffrence when you can shrug off spinal shots..
> >bri <bri@teleport.com>
> >
> 
> I noticed in working through the BR damage rules that most of the MILITARY
> ships listed had hull armor that would barely, if at all, stand up to the
> damage done by their own class of weapons.
> 
> I vaguely remember reading somewhere that one of the design criteria used
> for the classic Terran Wet Navy dreadnaughts was to be tough enough to
> survive MULTIPLE HITS BY THEIR OWN MAIN GUNS. The Missouri was designed to
> take multiple 16 inch shells, I belive at 2.5 tons of HE per shell.
> 
> Perhaps we need to develop some kind of easy, rule of thumb test for
> projected survivability in combat?
> 
> Basic idea:
> 
> 'Light' accepts hit from standard turret weapon at given tech level at long
> range without penetration.
> 
> 'Medium' accepts hit from standard bay weapon at given tech level at long
> range without penetration.
> 
> 'Heavy' accepts hit from standard spinal mount at given tech level at long
> range without penetration. This last one creates an interesting split when
> the tech level shifts spinal mounts from particle to meason.
> 
> It isn't always who shoots first, fastest or most, but who is still standing
> when the shooting is done.
> 
> Garry



I would love to see a system like this.  I posted something earlier on
dreadnoughts, but don't see it on the list yet.  You are correct. See
the USS Alaska for example.

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:05:32 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: DNs and Cruisers

David Smart wrote:
> 
> Tom Lane wrote:
> > Look forward to further discussion on this.  I would like to see a way a cruiser can really make a difference, as it would help my players a bit in their upcoming campaign.

Dave Smart wrote: 
> All these posts have led me to ask a question:> 
> What is the role of a "battlecruiser"?


A classic battlecruiser is, for example, the Graf Spee of the German
Navy of early WWII.  As heavily armed as a battleship, it was the size
of a large cruiser of the day.  Graf Spee could barely stand in the line
of battle, but the Germans wisely chose not to confront the nasty little
British Navy.  The British had true battleships waiting to butcher the
ship, and as I recall the captain of the GS scuttled her in Montevideo
Bay, Argentina rather that surrender or fight the Brits, who had him
bottled in.  That actually have been her sister ship, whose name eludes
me at this late hour(San Antonio,Texas, United States of Texas)

The battlecruiser occupies a station below battleship and above cruiser,
to my knowledge wtih obviously increasing power.  I do not think they
existed prior to just before WWII, when they were invented by the crafty
Germans as a way to violate/elude the naval tonnage treaties of the day.

As a footnote, an excellent movie I saw said that the "battleships" were
just three cruisers bamboozling the GS. So mabye cruisers can take on a
battleship and win  :)

Seriously, I do believe this argument boils down to the philosophy of
the universe you want to model.  The real world tends to say bigger is
better, while a game says what it wants to.  GM's choice!

Tomhiver

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:25:23 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Dreadnaughts considered harmful

Craig Berry wrote:
> 
> 
> I can't imagine ship-to-ship aperture synthesis working before about TL14,
> more likely 15 or higher; figuring out the relative position of two ships
> separated by 100,000 km to within a centimeter or so is a *tough* job.
> Doing it when both ships are accelerating is even tougher.  It becomes
> impossible if the two ships don't continuously alert one another on
> planned maneuvers a few seconds ahead of time, and even then fails if the
> actual maneuvers diverge by more than a few thousandths of a percent from
> what was planned -- which puts a rather heavy burden on both the pilot and
> the engineering staff!
> 
> If, however, you decide to try the trick anyway, you'll have meson
> communicators, which are effectively jamming-proof.
> 
> By the way, the same positional-determination problem is why I can't buy
> the whole Project Longbow concept.


Craig,

I buy your argument, but  what I see is the exponential effect of
technology.  Again, the universe is what we make it, but I think these
problems can be solved.  As a general rule, when humans are able to
envision something, it is only a few hundred years to realization.  We
underestimate ourselves.


On the other hand, you may be right about Longbow.  Anyone for virus?
   _\/_
    /\

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:45:04 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Whither the dreadnaught?

Enis Reddoch wrote:
> Speed:  All ships (and weapons platforms) need to have similar top speeds, or accelerations anyway.  A Dreadnaught should be slower than a Destroyer or Frigate, but we can't have a situation where *fighter/bombers* can fly rings around the big ships.
> 
> Armor and Size:  Armor needs to make a big difference, particularly in the number of hits a ship can take before it loses effectiveness. A Dreadnaught must be able to take a real pounding and keep
> fighting, while Cruisers can be taken out with a few hits from a
> Dreadnaught's *main* weapons.  Increasing size should make critical hits increasingly less likely, and allow a ship to take more and bigger
> "punches" while continuing to hit back.
> 
> Big Gun:  There needs to be a, "big gun" weapon that only real ships can mount.  This weapon's effective range needs to be increase with increased size and increased power.  This way a Frigate's "big gun" can outrange and outgun a Destroyer "big gun."  A Cruiser's "big gun" can outrange and outgun a Frigate's, and a Dreadnaught's "big gun" outranges and outguns anything short of a Shore Battery! Whatever this "big gun" is, it must be mountable only on larger ships, fighters need not apply.  Well, at least, a fighter's weapons should be totally ineffective against Dreadnaughts and Cruisers, and only marginally effective against Frigates and Destroyers.
> 
> Can we create these conditions?
> 
> Do we want to?
> 

What other precedent do we have to draw from?  Remember,Traveller is
probably closer to science fact than most other SFRPGs.  Fighters don't
whiz around battleships blowing them up with single shots.  They follow
vectors and accelerations, and are basically limited to 6G like the rest
of Traveller canon.

The same applies to cruisers.  The argument against is that you get more
chances to hit with large numbers of cruisers than with small numbers of
battleships.  I posit that the success of these methods is a gameism not
based in precedent from the only thing we know-actual combat in
WWI/WWII.

Cruisers could not stand against battleships, except in limited
circumstances.  True line oif battle warfare never occured because the
Japanese eliminated the US line at Pearl Harbor.  We soon fund out that
fighterbombers made great long range artillery.  

This will change in space.  Nowhere to hide, and about zero evasive
capability for all ships.  God takes away the air and makes it that way.
Of course you can jink, and that may be effective, but by and large the
big gunned, sensored and armored ships should win.  If only by
precedence.

My ideas to point:

1)Excess power and hull surface area determine screen effectiveness, not
a modular black box.  This increases the larger ships survivability,
more accurately simulating line ship precedents.

2)Increasing length directly increases collating power in spinal mounts,
boosting range and yield.  My brother has calculated yields on the order
of 1-100KT from various designs, based on meson conversion to energy at
the dump site.

3)Speed in Traveller is acceleration.  There is nothing more.  6g=6g on
a cruiser or fighter.  A dreadnought with enough excess power(which
these big ships are engineered to have) can maneuver just as well as a
fighter(assuming equal accelerations.)

In my mind we have to use precedent and compensate for the loss of water
and air, trying to figure out the most likely outcome.

4) You don't want to come to a gunfight with a throwing knife-not even a
lot of them.

mTom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:14:50 -0500
From: Hugh Johnson <ratling@csrlink.net>
Subject: White dwarf stars

Hi! This is my first post to the list.  This is also my first stupid
question to the list. 
Do all white dwarf stars evolve from the main sequence stars, or can they
start out as such?  And could someone please explain "why," either way?  The
question stems from detailing a star system; should the first few orbits be
empty?  Wow, I guess that was three stupid questions.


Hugh Johnson, the astronomically challenged.

ratling@csrlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:03:11 GMT
From: sdollar@goodnet.com (Stuart L. Dollar)
Subject: Classic Traveller Auction #5

sdollar@goodnet.com (Stuart L. Dollar) wrote:

A friend of mine has the following Classic Traveller Items available
for Auction:

1) Traveller Boxed Set:
Books 1-3
1st Edition (1977), 5th Printing
Very Good Condition

$25:  34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu
$20:  ross@ican.net

2) Traveller Boxed Set
Books 1-3
1st Edition (1977), 9th Printing
Very Good

$25:  ross@ican.net

3) Book 4, Mercenary
1st Edition (1978), 2nd Printing
Very Good
There are 2 copies of this one, in very similar condition.
(Collectors:  For those of you who are unaware, this printing had a
distinctive yellow stripe, instead of the burnt orange/brown of later
printings)

$15:  dmalnati@usa.net or dmalnati@absi.com
$10:  kieschef@cowen.com
$5:  34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu

4) Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society #6
Very Good
Minimum Bid $4

Here are the rules for the auction:

1)  The first phase of the auction will run from today, Monday,
January 20, 1997 through 1200 AM, MST, February 3, 1997.  

At the end of the first phase of bidding, the top 2 bidders (3 in the
case of Mercenary) will be notified by e-mail to submit a final bid.
They will have until 1200 AM, MST, February 7, 1997 to submit the
final bid.  Winning bidders will be the person who bids highest.  He
will pay $1 more than the next highest bid regardless of what he bid.
For example:

Bidder A bids $17
Bidder B bids $14
Bidder A wins the item and pays $15 ($14+$1)

2)  Bid prices do not include shipping

3)  Minimum Bid increments are $1

4)  Payment will be taken by check or money order in US$ only.
Payment by check will require a 2 week holding period for the check to
clear.  Money orders will be shipped the following day.

5) Bids will be accepted by e-mail only to:
sdollar@goodnet.com

6) Updates to the auction will be posted daily to USENet and the list.

7) Please indicate which copy of the Traveller Boxed Set you are
bidding on.

Thanks,
Stu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:48:03 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Appalled at CSC!!

TO TML:
The previous message was of course intended as a tongue in cheek joke.  I
surely hope no one misunderstood and please don't send me replies based on
that message alone.  I am truely pleased with the GIANT leap that IG has
made from Starpoops to CSC.  True, they have not produced a perfect product
yet, but they are well and truely on the way.

TO GREG:
The previous message was intended as a joke, please don't misunderstand. :)
As an aspiring writer, I appreciated the subtlety of that particular entry.
Thank you Greg for pushing up the quality of Traveller products with CSC.  I
am not sure how much you had to do with the layout and such, but the meat of
the material is yours and it is truely wonderful. :)

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:47:48 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Appalled at CSC!!

I am appalled (No Pun Intended) at the immorality suggested by CSC.

I know we have been over and over Marc's objectives for Traveller, and I
thought we had the issue settled, but apparently, Mr. Porter has no regard
for Marc's goals and designs for Traveller.

What am I talking about, you ask?

Marc has made no bones about telling us that he does not want to see
Traveller descend into tight suited Babes wielding just enough technology to
make it sci-fi.  Marc is looking for a game that is decent and not smutty.
I believe that I have accurately represented what Marc said regarding this.

What did Mr. Porter do to blatently defy Marc's wishes on this?

I direct your attention to the critically acclaimed Supplement # 3: Central
Supply Catalog.  Page 29 of this otherwise wonderful volume.  The second
item in the right hand column is labeled sleeping bag-5, but it could just
as well be labeled gratuitous smut!  I quote directly from the reference...

"Allows user to ... engage in meaningful cultural exchanges that would be
otherwise hindered by such clothing. [bulky cold weather clothing]"

Now I ask you, what activities would the user of a SLEEPING bag-5 be
involved in that would 1) require a sleeping bag, and 2) be impractical
while wearing bulky cold weather clothing?

I need not explain what smut Mr. Porter is refering to here.  It is quite
obvious that Mr. Porter has a true lack of family values and is trying to
undermine the true morality with this surreptitious reference.

I say again, I am appalled!!!

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:54:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: 1st impressions of JTAS25

    I went out this afternoon and picked up JTAS25 (last one at the store, but
I suppose it also could have been the Only one), which gets me completely
caught up with all the T4 releases, and after a quick skim-through, here's my
impressions:
     
     In general it seems like about like the better issues of "Traveller
Chronicle", which is fine as a starting point.  I have to wonder, though, if
there's a need for two Traveller magazines that are so similar.  Does anyone
know if Kevin Knight is planning to still publish TC and, if so, how (or even
if) he's planning to differentiate it from it's "official" cousin?
     I don't have the mag with me now, so I'm going from memory as regards the
individual articles.  The first adventure looked pretty good from what I
skimmed of it.  Haven't yet read the first story.  The biotech thing was okay,
but nothing special.  The Aliens Archive teaser was worthless since I've
already got the real book.  The second adventure seems to have a pretty good
basic story except for the huge error with the FTL radio and the fact that the
task descriptions seem to be working under a rules system other than T4.  The
"Free Trader Beowulf" story was quite good, but I noticed a few niggling
errors-- Sylea consistently spelled "Silea," the captain "dawns" his vac suit;
it seems like there were a couple others but I've forgotten them now.  The 101
cargoes were also good; especially the background story-info that was thrown in
with them.  Interior art was adequate, especially since this was issue #1
(anyone remember what TC#1 looked like?).  Cover art was fine, except that it
was a recycled picture from the rulebook-- I've got nothing against the
Foss-style.  All in all I'm perfectly satisfied and give it a B+ grade (or 4.0
on the old JTAS rating scale).  Who knows, I might even get off my lazy butt
and subscribe.

Trent Smith
P.S.  People have been mentioning their experience with T4 sell-throughs.  As
far as I can tell, the rulebook is selling quite well at stores I've been to,
but I can't speak for the supplements.  It seems like they're getting a single
copy, waiting for it to sell, and then not restocking it-- but I haven't really
talked to the owners so I may be wrong about that; perhaps the distributors
have been slow or something.  (As a sidenote for people wanting more specifics,
I've recently been to 2 stores in Indiana: one a games/comics shop and one a
games/hobbies shop, as well as a "just plain games" shop out here in CA.  All
three have about the same selection: good for brand new and major-company
products, a bit dodgy for older, more obscure titles.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:16:11 -0600
From: "sinbad@dfw.net" <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: More CSC Errata/Questions

Intelligent Lifeforms and Constructs,

More questions/errata on CSC:

Item 7:

Page 67 text underneath grav compensators....To Boost this up to 6g of
compensation would require (6/3)^3=8 times as much,...
 
But page 89 worksheet under Grav Compensation..Excess Compensation
Factor:(Acceleration Compensated-Max. Compensation), cubed(Min Of 1) well
that works out to (6-3)^3=27 times as much...

There seems to be a difference 8 versus 27 times volume.

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:08:47 -0500
From: jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block)
Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis

In article <9702418595711769@mychelle.other-plane.miamisci.org>, Tom Lane
<trlane@texas.net> wrote:

> Craig Berry wrote:
> > 
> >> However, doing ap-synth between multiple mobile platforms, maneuvering in
> > combat, separated by significant lightspeed delays (as has been suggested
> > on this thread) strikes me as highly unlikely.
> 
> 
> Excellent post on synthetic aperture, but jump drive, artificial gravity
> and nuclear dampers are highly unlikely too.  So were microcips in every
> doorknob 20 years ago.  In 3000 years these problems have been resolved,
> even though it may seem ludicrous to us.  
> 
> I think of what is possible and go three or four steps further.  The
> fleets forming that array also fight as one entity, guided by jacked in
> human command and nonAI AI systems the Imperium won't acknowledge as
> being intelligent.  You don't want to be in a naval confrontation in my
> Imperial Rebellion-it is ugly.

Hmm.  Take a large sensor drone, have it tow ten or twenty klicks (hell, we
have the materiels tech for superdense hulls, one or two hundred klicks) of
Sinclair molecule chain with sensor pods every X meters, communicating with
the mother ship via comm laser.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:08:47 -0500
From: jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block)
Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis

In article <9702418595711769@mychelle.other-plane.miamisci.org>, Tom Lane
<trlane@texas.net> wrote:

> Craig Berry wrote:
> > 
> >> However, doing ap-synth between multiple mobile platforms, maneuvering in
> > combat, separated by significant lightspeed delays (as has been suggested
> > on this thread) strikes me as highly unlikely.
> 
> 
> Excellent post on synthetic aperture, but jump drive, artificial gravity
> and nuclear dampers are highly unlikely too.  So were microcips in every
> doorknob 20 years ago.  In 3000 years these problems have been resolved,
> even though it may seem ludicrous to us.  
> 
> I think of what is possible and go three or four steps further.  The
> fleets forming that array also fight as one entity, guided by jacked in
> human command and nonAI AI systems the Imperium won't acknowledge as
> being intelligent.  You don't want to be in a naval confrontation in my
> Imperial Rebellion-it is ugly.

Hmm.  Take a large sensor drone, have it tow ten or twenty klicks (hell, we
have the materiels tech for superdense hulls, one or two hundred klicks) of
Sinclair molecule chain with sensor pods every X meters, communicating with
the mother ship via comm laser.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:48:45 -0500
From: jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block)
Subject: Re: Dreadnaughts considered harmful

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

> At 11:19 PM 1/23/97 -0500, Joe Block wrote:
> 
> >But you get a better sensor picture from two small arrays with a lot of
> >seperation that communicate with each other than you do with one bigger
> >array.  I don't recall the exact term, but it's the technique used in
> >astronomy when they have a bunch of tiny dishes rather than one big dish.
> 
> And then I start jamming your commo... oops.

A trifle difficult to jam a comm laser, no?  The geek in me says to use
multiple lasers, in different wavelengths, mounted on the extreme ends of
the ship, with some sort of cryptographic secret splitting algorithm (which
exist today) so that as long as any N-x out of N comm lasers are unoccluded
the data gets through.

This becomes especially hard to jam when your opponent has more than 2
ships in their squadron, each of which maintains links to all the other
squadron members.  It becomes more difficult by orders of magnitude if you
allow for several comm shuttles/drones standing off a couple of hundreths
of a light second relaying information in to the battlecruisers.  You can't
possibly carry enough sand to interdict all the comm links in a large
squadron.

Which brings me to the topic of sensor drones - why wouldn't a cruiser
carry several small unmanned sensor drones - it can't be too hard to build,
and even if you only deploy them a few tens of kilometers from the base
vessel you'll increase your sensor baseline a lot more than just bloating
your ship up to 500ktons or more.

Preventing the enemy from tapping your communication laser is easy - Niven
& Pournelle describe a suitable method in either _The Mote in God's Eye_ or
_The Gripping Hand_ - it boils down to the laser target being surrounded by
several concentric rings of sensors, and if the beam strays into the outer
rings, the system passes back a command to cut the link.  If the beam is
interrupted for more than N milliseconds, the back channel tells the
originating ship to cut the link.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 1997 09:52:57 -0000
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzum@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: DNs and Cruisers

Tom Lane wrote

>David Smart wrote:
>> 
>> Tom Lane wrote:
>> > Look forward to further discussion on this.  I would like to see a way a
cruiser can really make a difference, as it would help my players a bit in
their upcoming campaign.
>
>Dave Smart wrote: 
>> All these posts have led me to ask a question:> 
>> What is the role of a "battlecruiser"?
>
>
>A classic battlecruiser is, for example, the Graf Spee of the German
>Navy of early WWII.  As heavily armed as a battleship, it was the size
>of a large cruiser of the day.  Graf Spee could barely stand in the line
>of battle, but the Germans wisely chose not to confront the nasty little
>British Navy.  The British had true battleships waiting to butcher the
>ship, and as I recall the captain of the GS scuttled her in Montevideo
>Bay, Argentina rather that surrender or fight the Brits, who had him
>bottled in.  That actually have been her sister ship, whose name eludes
>me at this late hour(San Antonio,Texas, United States of Texas)

I think the sister ship of the GS was the Admiral Sheer.

>
>The battlecruiser occupies a station below battleship and above cruiser,
>to my knowledge wtih obviously increasing power.  I do not think they
>existed prior to just before WWII, when they were invented by the crafty
>Germans as a way to violate/elude the naval tonnage treaties of the day.
>
>As a footnote, an excellent movie I saw said that the "battleships" were
>just three cruisers bamboozling the GS. So mabye cruisers can take on a
>battleship and win  :)

If I remember the Royal Navy cornered it with 1 heavy cruiser and 2 light
cruisers.  I'll have to look up the details again.

>
>Seriously, I do believe this argument boils down to the philosophy of
>the universe you want to model.  The real world tends to say bigger is
>better, while a game says what it wants to.  GM's choice!
>
>Tomhiver
>

I have seen the HMS Hood called a battlecruiser.  When it was built it was the
longest ship in the Royal Navy.  The examples of battlecruisers that I can
think of emphasized speed and armament over armor.

PZ


- ---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:09:22 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Tech Level 

> From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
> Subject: Re: TL of 2nd and 3rd Imperiums
> 
> Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
> 
> >I've had a chance to page through a copy of CSC and it appears that
> >these relics are salvaged from derelict Rule of Man ships. The notes
> >claims that the technology is understood by the Syleans, and that    
> >they just don't have the technological support to produce them. This 
> >implies that RoM was at least borderline TL14, which is _a mistake_  
> >(Or, since CSC is an official publication, I suppose I have to call  
> >it a change of the canon).
> 
>    I'm afraid we are faced yet again with a bit of "IG Revisionism".  
>As it is a result of a basic ignorance of established canon (as are 
>most of their story slips), my tendency would be to either to declare 
>the number '14' errata (which means that they meant to say '13', which 
>would fit canon), or to just ignore the item altogether (explaining it 
>away as something that the Third Imperium develops later--sorry, wrong 
>book). Hopefully the inclusion of Marc Miller in the creative process 
>will eliminate similar mistakes in the future.
> 
>    You cannot simply declare previous canon as "one interpretation of
> events" (as I have heard someone who may or may not be associated with
> IG say previously).  That is a cop out, designed to allow people avoid 
>a lot of what they consider to be "unnecessary" reading before they 
>start writing for a previous storyline.  

> Harold
> 
> I personally think it is a bad change since another canonical fact is 
>that the Imperium dosen't reach TL 13 until Year 300 and TL 14 until... 
>(was it 700?). Making the RoM TL 14 and the Sylean Federation 
>borderline TL 13 is, IMO, a Bad Idea.
> 
> Besides, isn't one of the points of doing Mileau Zero to make it
> different from the other Traveller settings? Why then erase as much of 
>the difference as possible this way?
> 
>       Hans Rancke


	I believe that these TL 14 Vac Suits from the Rule of Man (high 
TL 12) can be explained (if you WANT to explain them) as being an 
example of an Achievment Tech Level in Spacesuits of Tl 14 which was 
above the Second Imperiums Hich Common Tech Level of 12.

	This would explain the Tl 14 Vac Suits without declaring the 
Central Supply Catalog to be wrong AND preserve the cannonical 
information that the Rule of Man was TL 12.  The Second Empire was TL 12 
it just happens that they had a few planets that made a few experimental 
TL 14 Vac Suits.  (In much the same way that the Tl 15 Imperium (circa 
1100) put TL 17 experimental AI computers (a very bad idea...) on its 
otherwise TL 15 Kinunir ships.)

	The MegaTraveller World Builders Handbook (pg 83-86) provides 
the ability to detail the Tech Level into the High Common Tech Level (TL 
8 on Earth in 1997 AD in the 1st world), the Low Common Tech Level (TL 5 
on Earth in 1997 AD in the 3rd world, 11 Achievement Tech Levels in 
specific areas: Energy, Computers/Robotics, Communications, Medical, 
Environment, Land Transport, Water Transport, Air Transport, Space 
Transport, Personal Military, and Heavy Military and a novelty Tech 
Level which is the highest of one of the following: the highest 
Achievment Tech Level, the previous Tech Level on the planet if it has 
regressed, or that of imported novelties.

	I suggest that (if we so desire) we can consider the TL 14 Vac 
Suits listed as being products of the Second Imperium Achievment Tech 
Level of 14 in Spacesuits.  This would them mean that Syleas Novelty TL 
is 14 which would represent these suits.

	The Price of these suits is_very_wrong however. 

	I normally treat products of an Achievment TL above the High 
Common Tech Level as costing (x+1) x 2 times the normal cost IE 2 x cost 
for +1 TL, 4 x cost for +2 TL's, and 8 x cost for +3 Tl's if they are 
currently in  production.  For Artifact type items I usually charge the 
product of the higher Tech Levels.  IE at TL 12 Mileau 0 the 1700 year 
old Rule of Man TL 14 artifacts will cost  192 times (13 x 14) times 
their initial price.  

	This explains why the suits will be rare !

	This system  should not  be used to obtain a price for Ancient 
Artifacts but only for previous human achievments.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #881
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, January 25 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 882



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Distribution problems
White dwarf stars
Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle
Stupid Questions (was:Re: White dwarf stars)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #872
Re: pogo sticks
Re: The Commander's Triumphant Return 
Re: Vilani and Long pig
Re: 1st impressions of JTAS25
Re: Gearhead Alert!!!!       Critical Ship Displacement Question
Re: Gearhead Alert!!!! Critical Ship Displacement Question
Re: Vilani and Long Pig
[none]
[none]
Re: Gearhead Alert!!!! Critical Ship Displacement Question
Re: Dreadnaughts considered harmful
RE:A new weapon for people - an idea
Re: Babel fish
Re: Babel fish
Re: Jump Drives/Space
Re: DNs and Cruisers
Re: White dwarf stars
Re: Fighters buzzing around battleships
Re: Distribution problems

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:18:14 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Distribution problems

On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Tom Lane wrote:

> Think a flashy poster design would help?  One with a lot of starships in
> combat blasting each other?  Might get some attention.

I think that if IG printed up some sort of flyer or other advertising 
materials, and shipped them off to the distributors (who would then ship 
them with each game store's weekly order), that would help.  And it'd be 
cheap.  That way, all the game store owners would know that T4 exists, at 
least.  Posters would help lend credence to the claim that T4 is here to 
stay.  And, of course, if the FLGS owners put the posters up, it'd help 
sales.  

Maybe IG will do that sometime soon...I hope.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:01:46 +0100 (MET)
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Subject: White dwarf stars

> From: Hugh Johnson <ratling@csrlink.net>
 
> Do all white dwarf stars evolve from the main sequence stars, or can they
> start out as such?  And could someone please explain "why," either way?

  When a star forms out of the interstellar gas it will be (after a short
initial phase which isn't that well understood) a main sequence star. Why?
It's because hydrogen compressed in that way behave in a certain way, 
fusioning at a certain rate which keeps the star in equilibrium between
the gravity which wants it to contract and the fusion which wants it to
blow up.

  So for a certain mass of gas you will get a star with a certain radii and
a certain brightness, which in turn determines temperature which in turn
determines color.

  White dwarfs are too faint for their color (IIRC:) because they have very
little hydrogen left after burning it all up in their time on the main
sequence.

> ratling@csrlink.net
 
- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 01:15:41 +1100
From: Scott Levy <bear.garden@c031.aone.net.au>
Subject: Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle

Just as an aside I have read that big game hunters in Africa use a system
called "Taylor Knock Out" to calculate the potential effectivness of a
cartridge against dangerous game. It multiplies bullet weight  by velocity
by bore diameter and devides the result by 7000 just to give smaller
numbers (7000 grains in 1lb).
This means that small high velocity rounds don't come out so well. BIG
bullets do.
eg. 7.62mmNATO 2,725ft lbs of energy has a TKO of 18.9
.45ACP has 327ft lbs and a TKO of 11.8
Big game rifle have much larger TKO's
.460 Weatherby Magnum (>8,000ft lbs) TKO=89
The .500 A-Square round has a lower velocity and energy than the .460WMag
but a higher TKO of 105.
A company here in Australia has just started producing a rifle based on a
old tiger hunting design from India. It fires a slow moving 4 Bore round
(1") and give a TKO of 350.
The speed of the larger rounds would give them tragectories like rainbows
but most big game would be shot at close range. Most of the big game rifles
used to be double barrelled so as to have a second shot ready if a second
animal appeared at the sound of the shot and charged.
All of the above is based solely on reading, I don't think rabbits could be
classed as dangerous game and they seldom charge.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:20:50 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Stupid Questions (was:Re: White dwarf stars)

At 01:14 AM 1/25/97 -0500, Hugh Johnson wrote:

>Hi! This is my first post to the list.  This is also my first stupid
>question to the list. 

Welcome to the nuthouse!  And now a patented Doug Berry rant on:

Stupid Questions.

There is no such thing here on the TML.  We are lucky enough to have
everybody from shpyard workers to programmers to military history fanatics,
to scientists on this list.  We act as each others reality checker, and
often I learn the most fascinating things just from the commentary.

I can't answer your question.  I'll bet Craig or Leonard will have a
responce, in detail, up within a few hours.

(Sorry about the OT, but it's been a long night.)




+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:06:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #872

In mail you write:

> On the other hand what support is there for the idea that
> cannibalism did occur?

Oh, just the fact that it's a common feature of "primitive" cultures
world wide on Terra. So it has just as good a chance of *starting*, and
*better* reasons for continuing.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:56:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: pogo sticks

In mail you write:

> I just want to know who has been reading back issues of "Car and
> Driver"?? - they did a review of a one-cylinder internal combustion
> engine powered pogo stick sometime in the late '60s. 

In the same vein, back in the early 60s, "You Asked For It" showed a
set of gasoline powered roller skates. The motor was worn as a
backpack, and a drive cable carried the power to one of the skates.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:20:52 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Commander's Triumphant Return 

At 11:56 PM 1/24/97 -0500, Commander X wrote:

>One further note, why is this considered my return?  Because this is the
>same Account/Address  I had back in 1995, when I just started out on the
>net, man was I green as hell back then...netwise.  Some of you old-time
>TML'ers may remember me from back then,  I was the one who practicaly
>started the thread/flame about "Jump-Torpedoes"  for TNE! );-> (Impish
>Grin)

Great site!  Well put together, visually engaging.. a solid 8 out of ten.

One suggestion: change the link color to something other than that dark
green, I couldn't read what the links were.


+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:02:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long pig

In mail you write:

> I find this dubious.  Ritual cannibalism is not
> unknown, but it has little to do with nutrition.

Under the conditions existing on Vland, a culture that practices ritual
cannibalism as a means of disposing of the dead will have a lot more
readily available protien and nutrients. 

This won't support them in the absence of "adequate" suppkies of
treated local food. But as an *addition* to those supplies it will give
the groups practicing it a definite advantage, Not a *large* advantage,
but an advantage, nonetheless.

Consider two groups, one that doesn't eat their dead and one that does.
Both get the same amount of nutrients from the local foods. And that is
enough to survive on. Possibly on the edge of malnutrition, possibly not.

The first group is essentially "throwing away" the *concentrated*
vitamins and other nutrients in the body. The second group gets some
"free" extra nutrients when a member dies. And that quite literally
strengthens them. Because they are getting *better* nutrition.

There *is* a difference between the minimum amount of a nutrient that
you can survive on, and the amount that is ideal. And *that* is the
area whether even ritual cannibalism can make a difference.

This actually applies to the places where it was practiced most
recently on Earth. They believed that you got the strength of the enemy
warrior by eating him. Well, that *extra* protien in what is
essentially a *subsistence level* society *does* give some extra
strength. 

ps. Cannibalism in humans *societies* has *alway* been "ritual".
Because as you note, wholesale killing of humans for the prposes of
eating *does* have problems. But eating people killed for other puposes
is a quite different matter.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:23:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: 1st impressions of JTAS25

On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Trent Smith wrote about JTAS25 thusly:

>      In general it seems like about like the better issues of "Traveller
> Chronicle", which is fine as a starting point.  I have to wonder, though, if
> there's a need for two Traveller magazines that are so similar.  Does anyone
> know if Kevin Knight is planning to still publish TC and, if so, how (or even
> if) he's planning to differentiate it from it's "official" cousin?

Don't worry, JTAS #26 will differentiate itself from TC and JTAS25. :)  
Glossy pages, color interior, an editorial, a letters column, possibly an 
"excerpts from TML" column, a monthly comic strip, etc. etc.  Oh, and no 
stories about subspace-radio-using starships. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:14:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gearhead Alert!!!!       Critical Ship Displacement Question

In mail you write:

>>Earth's sea going ships DO NOT use the Traveller Displacement Ton as a
>>unit of measurement.  My understanding is that the US uses the Ship
>>Register Ton.  It turns out that there are roughly 500 cubic feet in 14
>>stere (actually 494), and you can compare Traveller ship sizes to *real*
>>seagoing ship sizes by using a 5 to 1 ratio.
>
> Thank you Eris, you make a great point, that being,
>    "A TON is not a TON is not a TON"
>
> I had to jump in here cause it is one of the few things I know about. :)
>
> Registry Tons actually varry from country to country, but here in the US it
> is 100 Cu. Ft.

And a fact I came across today that will help scale things:

Thge external tank on the Space Shuttle is over 2.5 kilosteres or about
90,000 cubic feet. That makes it 900 registry tons, or about 180
Traveller displacement tons. I find this interesting...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:39:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gearhead Alert!!!! Critical Ship Displacement Question

In mail you write:

>    First, great analysis.  Second, you do not have Gearhead Virus. 
> Anyone with "gearhead" would have finished his or her demonstration with
> a theoretical displacement for the Death Star (the original, not that
> stationary gun platform in the third movie).
>
>    I once speculated as to what *that* number might be, but then
> regained my sanity.

It's actually rather simple to figure (and a *lot* smaller than they'd
have you believe). As I recall it works out to *well* under 20 km. 

I used a 19 inch TV and a tape of the movie. You freeze the picture
when the Death Star is almost full screen, and measure the size of the
DS, and the size of the equatorial trench. Then you freeze again when
the trench is almost full screen, and measure the width of the trench,
and the width of the area with the landing bay. Repeat until you
measure the size of the landing bay "door" and the size of the
Millenium Falcon as it goes thru. Simple calculations will give you the
diameter of the Death Star in units of the thickness of the Millenium
Falcon. Plug in a "reasonable" value for the thickness, and you have
the size. Which, as I noted, is rather puny.

Me, I want to build a planetoid hull ship... Starting with Ceres (500
km diameter)...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:20:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long Pig

In mail you write:

>>Lest you plead inhumanity, I can point
>>to numerous 20th-century instances of group behaviour that were worse, and
>>completely wasteful of good protein to boot...
>
> OTOH, in human history cannibalism is _rare_.

Oh? Various tribes in New Guinea, most of Polynesia, various African
tribes, various Native American tribes, the Aztecs. That's for "recent"
history. Archeological evidence from Europe and Asia isn't exactly
scarce. 

> People that will engage in mass murder won't resort to it.

And people will engage in it that won't engage in mass-murder? So?

Cannibalism is virtually always *ceremonial*, in addition to whatever
nutritional value it may add.

> There is a huge
> aversion to cannibalism that occurs in all social species
> and results from the evolutionary undesirability of cannibalism.

Cannibalism isn't evolutionarily undesirable. I there are a number of
fish and amphibian species that are their own major predator. And a lot
of carnivores will cheerfully devour members of their own species who
crowd into their territory.

> More importantly, the fact is that since the Vilani have not
> more reason to resort to cannibalism (see above) than humans,
> what reason is there to believe it would be more common there?

They *do* have more reason. If nothing else, it's a *major* waste of
usable nutrients to dispose of a dead body by any means *other* than
eating it. That *conserves* nutrients that would otherwise be dispersed
back into the environment.

Killing people to eat them is counter-productive. Eating your dead (in
the environment on Vland) *isn't*. 

And this is *not* the same as eating people who have died of
starvation. I'm talking about death by accident or old age.

> Gee, I haven't seen any references on _either_ side. :-)  However,
> just look at human history, as you yourself have pointed out,
> humans are willing to do any number of horrible things a lot
> more readily than they will

The only culture on *Earth* that got as far as writing and still had
cannibalism seems to have been the Aztecs. It's usually a trait of
*tribal* cultures. As such, it won't be in *history*, as that
*requires* writing.

> Also, think back to your study.  What happens to a society
> that faces shriking resources?  There population shrinks
> to fit the available resources?  Can you cite a single
> group in human history that was ever maintained even
> a subgroup of a society via cannibalism?

Contrary to others in this, I don't see cannibalism as a major food
source, except possibly while groups are at war with each other. But it
*would* be an important dietary factor.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:33:25 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: [none]

Tom Lane wrote:

>
>What other precedent do we have to draw from?  Remember,Traveller is
>probably closer to science fact than most other SFRPGs.  Fighters don't
>whiz around battleships blowing them up with single shots.  They follow
>vectors and accelerations, and are basically limited to 6G like the rest
>of Traveller canon.
>

        Unless, of course, you start building fighters with HEPlaR
auxiliary drives.  With drop tanks for reaction mass and G-tanks for the
crew to supplement their I-comps, things could get quite interesting.

        I think I might just spike the water cooler down at Famille
Spofulams Yards with some amphetamines and hallucinogens and set the design
team loose..:)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:33:21 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: [none]

Joe Walsh wrote:

>
>On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>
>>
>>         Just out of curiosity, are we allowed multiple entries?
>
>Sure, you can enter as many times as you like.  The only catch is, each
>subsequent entry supercedes the previous ones.  In other words, Wildstar
>will only consider your latest entry when deciding who wins. ;)
>
>
>- -Joe

        Rats...  It's just that I had another idea percolating.  However, I
like the first one I did too much to want to consign it to the scrap
heap...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:06:26 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Gearhead Alert!!!! Critical Ship Displacement Question

I think Star Wars RPG gives the diameter at 60km.  

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:06:21 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Dreadnaughts considered harmful

> Which brings me to the topic of sensor drones - why wouldn't a cruiser
> carry several small unmanned sensor drones - it can't be too hard to build,
> and even if you only deploy them a few tens of kilometers from the base
> vessel you'll increase your sensor baseline a lot more than just bloating
> your ship up to 500ktons or more.
> 


Don't forget meson comm.  Nearly unjammable in Trav. All this is way
beyond us.  I do believe in sensor drones.  (In fact, I believe the
Terrans used stutterwarp and the Vilani used J drive.  Definitely
non-canon, and I won't posit further.)

There should be rules for drones.


Tom

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 22:43:44 UT
From: "Harry McGowan" <AL_THE_MAD@msn.com>
Subject: RE:A new weapon for people - an idea

Thats, a nice idea.....I don't know how the physisists will take it, but 
still, it has potential. I'll have to use it in my campaign, a shotgun laser 
rifle, cool, well cool.

Al

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 97 17:40 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Babel fish

In-Reply-To: <970122191126_100326.446_JHF141-3@CompuServe.COM>

<< Hmn. CoC is OOP as I recall, Traveller has been until 
recently. RQ has had mere scrap released for it in five or 
six years. Interesting. CoC must be the _least_ modified 
game rules system in the entire pile. >>

NAFAIK. CoC is up to at least 5th ed, but the changes are fairly minor.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 97 17:40 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Babel fish

In-Reply-To: <970122191126_100326.446_JHF141-3@CompuServe.COM>

<< Hmn. CoC is OOP as I recall, Traveller has been until 
recently. RQ has had mere scrap released for it in five or 
six years. Interesting. CoC must be the _least_ modified 
game rules system in the entire pile. >>

NAFAIK. CoC is up to at least 5th ed, but the changes are fairly minor.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 97 17:41 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Jump Drives/Space

In-Reply-To: <32E836A2.3C7C@flash.net>

<< > > > 7.  Requests for help via com laser from a needle-shaped 
transparent ship
> > > orbiting a ringworld. (Ringworld...anybody remember Chaosium?)
> >
> > Arrgh! I used to *own* a copy of that... I can't believe that I 
forgot it.
> 
>    Speaking of which...if _anyone_ has a copy of this game, let me 
know!

I have a copy of it and its supplements. What's up? >>

'supplementS'? Plural? I thought there was only one?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:20:26 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: DNs and Cruisers

At 04:30 AM 1/25/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Tom Lane wrote:
>> Look forward to further discussion on this.  I would like to see a way a
>> cruiser can really make a difference, as it would help my players a bit
>> in theri upcoming campaign.
>
>All these posts have led me to ask a question:
>
>What is the role of a "battlecruiser"?
>

To circumvent militarily restrictive political agreements. Earlier comments
in the list brought up the Graf Spee, a 'battlecruiser', which was designed
by the German Navy after World War I and prior to World War II. The treaties
that ended WWI limited the size (tonnage) of ships in the German Navy. they
did not limit the size or number of weapons however. So a 'cruiser' sized
hull was loaded up with 'dreadnaught' class weapons: Battlecruiser!  

Garry
  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:43:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: White dwarf stars

> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:14:50 -0500
> From: Hugh Johnson <ratling@csrlink.net>
> 
> Hi! This is my first post to the list.  This is also my first stupid
> question to the list. 
> Do all white dwarf stars evolve from the main sequence stars, or can they
> start out as such?  And could someone please explain "why," either way?  The
> question stems from detailing a star system; should the first few orbits be
> empty?  Wow, I guess that was three stupid questions.

Welcome to the TML!  And Hugh, if you consider these "stupid questions,"
you're clearly new to the Net as well. :)

All white dwarfs (dwarves?) evolve from main-sequence stars.  A white
dwarf is basically a star with the Sun's mass (more or less) crammed into
the Earth's volume (more or less).  Start with a cloud of prestellar
matter of around the Sun's mass, let it collapse gravitationally, and
you'll get...the Sun.  The white dwarf stage only happens after the star
burns for a *long* time, exhausting its core hydrogen and most of its core
helium as well.

It just occurred to me that if your prestellar cloud was massively
hydrogen- and helium-depleted, you might get something like a white dwarf
from the start, though it wouldn't be quite as hot.  Of course, clouds
like that don't exist in our neck of the woods, and probably don't
anywhere other than as exceedingly rare freaks -- the universe hasn't been
around long enough to leave severely depleted clouds lying around.

So, any planets of a white dwarf which are original to the system (i.e.,
not captured late in the game) will have been seriously toasted during the
preceding red giant phase; the innermost ones (as you suggest) will have
been entirely vaporized.  This latter might include everything out to 1 AU
for a star like the Sun.

Hope this helps!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:16:11 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters buzzing around battleships

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> 
> Tom Lane wrote:
> 
> >
> >What other precedent do we have to draw from?  Remember,Traveller is
> >probably closer to science fact than most other SFRPGs.  Fighters don't
> >whiz around battleships blowing them up with single shots.  They follow
> >vectors and accelerations, and are basically limited to 6G like the rest
> >of Traveller canon.
> >
> 
>         Unless, of course, you start building fighters with HEPlaR
> auxiliary drives.  With drop tanks for reaction mass and G-tanks for the
> crew to supplement their I-comps, things could get quite interesting.
> 
>         I think I might just spike the water cooler down at Famille
> Spofulams Yards with some amphetamines and hallucinogens and set the design
> team loose..:)


Absolutely right.  Measures can be taken.  However, the problem is not
really overcoming a 6g load.  The problem is overcoming inertia, or the
relative closure velocity.  

These velocities may be as high as 200,000 mph between opposing fleets,
and even 40g drives cannot allow a fighter to match vectors then buzz
around a bship.  

Think of submarines instead of aircraft, and you'll see a better match. 
By the way, I'd love to visit your shipyard.  Are you the inventor of
the thremonuclear pogo stick?

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:53:20 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Distribution problems

Joseph E. Walsh wrote:

> 
> Let us know if you're able to, Eris. :)  I feel as though I'm banging my
> head against a wall with a few of the stores local to me.  Maybe you can
> help me with my technique. :) 

Two words: "Money talks." My FLGS is now among the elite who stock
_every_ IG product so far (even _Starships_) because the Sunday Follies
demo is getting people to _buy_ here. My money, and Vic's, and Rodney's,
and Will's, and the dough of at least five other guys all said the same
thing to my FLGS owner: "Stock T4!"

No FLGS owner can ignore results like these.

> I've told them how well it's selling, I've
> told them which stores are selling it in the area and recommended the
> call and simply ask how its selling.  I've recommended they ask their
> distributor how well its selling.  None of these things have helped any
> more than my passionate pleas for stocking it simply because I'm a
> customer who wants it.  They'll special order it, but they won't keep it
> on the shelf to sell to those who don't know about it yet.  Sigh.

While I can see your store owner's point about ordering vs. stocking --
look at recent hobby history (CCGs) and a Frank Chadwick _Challenge_
editorial for the disgusting details -- the caution he is showing must
be overcome by evidence to the contrary. He has written off the evidence
you've tried to show him so far as hype, and there's also the effort
factor: you're asking him to research the facts and so forth. He may
also be thinking that the coming _Babalyon 5_ and _Exile_ games from CEE
and WWGS (gag) are going to be Trav-slayers.

Of course, we disagree: B5 is a lively newcomer and _Exile_ will be
WWGS' usual triumph of style over substance . . . Trav is the Real Thing
in sfrpgs. Now to convince your UFLGSO . . . . 

- -- 
- --Rich Ostorero		http://home.inreach.com/lordbasl/index.html
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #882
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, January 25 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 883



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
Re: Ringworld RPG
Re: White dwarf stars
Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis AND BIG, BIG DREADNOUGHTS!
Battlecruisers
Old Broducts
Re: Whither the dreadnaught?
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #872
Re: DNs and Cruisers
Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
Re: Vilani and Long pig
Re:  I'm back... with new books
RE: My triumphant return
Traveller Auction...
Re: Whither the dreadnaught?
Re: Tech Level

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:03:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis

> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:08:47 -0500
> From: jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block)
> 
> In article <9702418595711769@mychelle.other-plane.miamisci.org>, Tom Lane
> <trlane@texas.net> wrote:
> > Craig Berry wrote:
> > > However, doing ap-synth between multiple mobile platforms, maneuvering in
> > > combat, separated by significant lightspeed delays (as has been suggested
> > > on this thread) strikes me as highly unlikely.
> > 
> > Excellent post on synthetic aperture, but jump drive, artificial gravity
> > and nuclear dampers are highly unlikely too.  So were microcips in every
> > doorknob 20 years ago.  In 3000 years these problems have been resolved,
> > even though it may seem ludicrous to us.  

The problem is that our canonical magic tech for Traveller explicitly
excludes FTL comm...and that's precisely what you need to make ap-synth
work over light-second distances and high relative speeds/accelerations.

> Hmm.  Take a large sensor drone, have it tow ten or twenty klicks (hell, we
> have the materiels tech for superdense hulls, one or two hundred klicks) of
> Sinclair molecule chain with sensor pods every X meters, communicating with
> the mother ship via comm laser.

Congratulations, you've reinvented the towed array! :)  That's precisely
how modern subs and ASW surface ships operate, though in this case the
total array length is <mumble> and the sensor spacing more like <cough>
(used to work for Rockwell Marine Systems Division, and I don't want the
FBI paying me a visit...). 

One of the major problems faced in using towed arrays is (big surprise)
maneuvering.  When you're on a constant course and speed, the array
stretches out behind you nice and straight, it's easy to model the
relative placement of the sensors, and life is good.  Turn the ship, and
the array gets a bend in it...it almost acts like there's a pulley in the
water, around which the array turns.  Until you drag the whole array
through the turn, it's very *hard* to figure out relative placement of
your sensors...not impossible, but hard, and prone to errors.

Of course, in space you wouldn't have this problem; dynamics are a lot
simpler in vacuum, as is positional measurement.  And putting your array
on a string rather than as free-flying drones means you don't have to put
engines and the like in the sensor pods.  Hmmmmm...you may be onto
something, here!

BTW, if you're using Sinclair thread, no need for comm lasers.  It's a
superconductor; just multiplex your sensor signals up the cable.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:44:16 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Ringworld RPG

On 22 Jan 97 22:54:26 -0500, you wrote:

> =09
> >Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:48:36 +0000 (GMT)
> >From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
> >Subject: Re: Jump Drives/Space
> >
> >On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >> >
> >> > 7.  Requests for help via com laser from a needle-shaped =
transparent
> >ship
> >> > orbiting a ringworld. (Ringworld...anybody remember Chaosium?)
> >>=20
> >> Arrgh! I used to *own* a copy of that... I can't believe that I =
forgot
> it.
> >
> >   Speaking of which...if _anyone_ has a copy of this game, let me =
know!
> >
> >
>=20
> Heh heh... I've got a copy! =20
>=20
> Before you ask, no, it's not for sale. =20
>=20
> Okay, I was just bragging.  :)

Well... I DO have a copy and it IS for sale!  It seems that my current
gaming group feels the most comfortable with one referee ref'ing one
game and it will probably stay that way for quite a while (ie: I doubt
I'll ever get a chance to play it).

I also have the Companion that was released shortly thereafter.  If
you want it, drop me a line!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:40:03 -0500
From: Hugh Johnson <ratling@csrlink.net>
Subject: Re: White dwarf stars

>So, any planets of a white dwarf which are original to the system (i.e.,
>not captured late in the game) will have been seriously toasted during the
>preceding red giant phase; the innermost ones (as you suggest) will have
>been entirely vaporized.  This latter might include everything out to 1 AU
>for a star like the Sun.
>
>Hope this helps!

        Thanks for the helpful information.  The next question is what would
be the range of the star's increase for class M9 through B0 of sizes VI
through Ia?  Has anyone figured this out or is there a formula for
determining this?   I was working on a star system with a type MD star when
my wife brought up the question as to if I could have planetary bodies in
the closer orbits.   
        Also as the star begins to collapse back into itself, would the
gravitational pull of the star drag planets from the outer orbits back with
it into the closer orbits?

Hugh (I should have paid more attention in astronomy class and not taken it
at 8:00 in the morning) Johnson 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:32:58 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis

BTW, Craig, this is really helping me get an idea of how this stuff
would work.  I need it.  I was also a physics major so feel free to lay
some equations down if you feel you can prove why slt apsynth over a 5
ls distance won't work.

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:28:39 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis AND BIG, BIG DREADNOUGHTS!

Craig Berry wrote:
> 
> > Date: Fri, 24 > 
> The problem is that our canonical magic tech for Traveller explicitly
> excludes FTL comm...and that's precisely what you need to make ap-synth
> work over light-second distances and high relative speeds/accelerations.
> 


The computer's use delayed vector/postion information predicted/tracked
by each ship's computer to come up with targetting assignments, not the
"real" stuff.  This does not require FTL, just a sacrifice in
information accuracy. Secondly, you are assuming the system works
perfectly.  I am not. This is a great element to add fog and friction to
the game, as parts of the fleet sensor array are more adequate than
others.  

I have posited fleet displacements of 50,000 to 1,000,000 km, rougly 5
ls at max.  I think a system should be able to synthesize valuable
targetting data from this spread, even though inaccuracies are bound to
occur.  The larger the fleet, the larger the error.  This would be an
incentive to keep a fleet tight, rather than spread it all over the star
system.

Of course, nothing ever happens like this with real military hardware;)

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 04:17:28 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: Battlecruisers

>
>What is the role of a "battlecruiser"?
>

1) Very fast heavy cruiser

2) Oversized CA, with enhanced armaments

3) Overpowered CA (larger hull, PP, and proportional armaments)

4) generic term for any cruiser designed for primary fire line (archaic term)

The uses vary; these are from 20th century gaming.

William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 04:08:03 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: Old Broducts

>Discount Games has some "Traveller" products from Adjutant that I've never
>heard of.
>
>Titles like;
>
>Grav Vehicles
>Infantry Weapons
>Waterborne Vehicles
>
>I think
>They are CT based products.  Anyone have a recommendation?  They're only 4
>buck apeice.

They are striker compatable; by comparing designs with what is shown, they
can be readily converted to MT. At $4 each, they are well worth it. I am
aware of 9 books in that series; I am missing 2 of those...


William F. Hostman
Mailto:Aramis@Asylumbbs.com

Traveller, GURPS, Hero, WFRP, SFB, Star Wars, and Masterbook GM
Star Trek, B5, and Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:45:19 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Whither the dreadnaught?

On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Tom Lane wrote:
> 3)Speed in Traveller is acceleration.  There is nothing more.  6g=6g on
> a cruiser or fighter.  A dreadnought with enough excess power(which
> these big ships are engineered to have) can maneuver just as well as a
> fighter(assuming equal accelerations.)

Is this really true, though?  Suppose you have a fighter, and a 
dreadnought, with identical acceleration capabilities and hull
configurations.  The distance between the ends of the dreadnought's
hull, and the point upon which it pivots when it changes its heading,
is going to be considerably longer than the corresponding distance
for the fighter.  Shouldn't a dreadnought's frame experience more
stress than the fighter's, when conducting similiar maneuvers?  Crew,
and acceleration-sensitive equipment, might not fare well close
to the bow and stern of a rapidly-turning dreadnought.  Yes, 
wonderful esoteric materials will make "stiffer" hulls, capable of 
taking more self-inflicted maneuver-related punishment, possible, but
for a dreadnought to maneuver like a fighter, a larger fraction of its
available volume is going to have to be dedicated to braces, inertial
compensators, G-tanks, and so forth...

A problem: big maneuverable dreadnoughts ought to be spherical.  
Being spherical, in a universe with meson guns, is bad, however, and
it's also bad because it limits spinal weapon length.  Heavy and
redundant meson screening would help, and if you used a *circular*
or *spiral* "spinal" mount (the "equatorial gun"), you could have
the best of both worlds...

                                                         - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:40:46 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #872

Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:06:19 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> On the other hand what support is there for the idea that
>> cannibalism did occur?

>Oh, just the fact that it's a common feature of "primitive" cultures
>world wide on Terra.

The points, to be more accurate, is not why did cannibalism
occur at all, but why would it be any more of a feature
on Vland than on Earth?

>So it has just as good a chance of *starting*, and
>*better* reasons for continuing.

We, cannibalism never started (in that is was never widely
practiced) and I have yet to see any convincing arugments
about why it would be more likely to continue if it did.

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 97 16:49:52 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: DNs and Cruisers

On 01/25/97 at 12:05 AM,  Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net> said:

> A classic battlecruiser is, for example, the Graf Spee of the German Navy
> of early WWII. 

Well, *actually* the "Graf Spee" was called a pocket battleship.  ;-> It
was built the size of cruiser because of size restrictions placed on
Germany after WWI.  It was, for all intents and purposes though, a small
Battlecruiser.

> Graf Spee could barely stand in the line of battle

Not even barely!  

> The British had true battleships waiting to butcher the ship, and
> as I recall the captain of the GS scuttled her in Montevideo Bay,
> Argentina rather that surrender or fight the Brits, who had him
> bottled in.

Oh boy, I get to put my history hat on! ;->

"Graf Spee" was doing commerce raiding in the South Atlantic during the
early days of the war.  She had captured or sunk a number of merchantmen
and the Allies had 20 warships out hunting her, including a carrier and a
couple of battleships.  A British squadron caught up with her off the River
Plate.

The Battle of the River Plate, 12/13/39.  

"Graf Spee" with 6 11-in and 8 5.9-in guns against a British
Squadron consisting of the heavy cruiser "Exeter" (6 8-in guns) and two
light cruisers "Ajax" and "Achilles" (8 6-in guns).  The German Captain,
confident that his guns could blow the lighter British ships out of the
water, closed with them.  He *should* have stood off and destroyed them at
long range because his main guns outranged them by almost 10,000 yards.  He
may have suspected heavier forces were closing, though, and wanted to
quickly silence this group.

The British maneuvered expertly not allowing the German to
concentrate his fire, but they were still badly outgunned.  At the end of
the 80 minute engagement:  "Exeter" was silenced, dead in the water, and on
fire; "Ajax" had lost half her guns and was listing badly to port;
"Achilles" was severely damaged, but still operational; however the "Graf
Spee" had also been badly damaged, cutting her speed severely.  "Graf Spee"
broke off the engagement and limped into Montevideo hoping to make repairs. 


The British light cruisers followed while the "Exeter", after putting out
the fires and relighting her boilers, limped for Port Stanley in the
Falklands.  The Uruguayan government refused to allow the "Graf Spee" to
stay longer than 3 days, and that wasn't enough time to complete the
repairs.

Her Captain learned from a German merchantman that a large warship (the
British heavy cruiser "Cumberland" with 8 8-in guns) had joined the
blockade.  He assumed from the description that it was either a
Battlecruiser or a Battleship and he didn't think he would be able to
outfight or out run his opponents.  He left most of his crew aboard the
German merchantman in the harbor, sailed out and blew up his ship.

> I do not think they existed prior to just before WWII, when they
> were invented by the crafty Germans as a way to violate/elude the
> naval tonnage treaties of the day.

Oh yes, Battlecruisers were around earlier, before WWI in fact.  BC
squadrons were the main contestants at the Battle of the Dogger Banks in
1915 and were heavily featured at the Battle of Jutland in 1916.  

Battlecruisers were a design theory running counter to the heavily armored
Dreadnaught theory.  They were build along side the
Dreadnaughts during the pre-WWI period. They never were really very
effective.  After WWI they continued to be built mainly because they came
in below the naval treaty tonnage restrictions.

The pocket battleships were Germany's invention to get around the treaties. 
Germany was more heavily restricted by treaty than the other powers.  "Graf
Spee" and "Admiral Scherr" weren't even *real* Battlecruisers, just
up-gunned heavy cruisers.

BTW, I assume you've heard of the "HMS Hood" sunk by the "Bismark." "Hood"
was a Battlecruiser, and "Bismark" took her out with a single shot at over
25,000 yards..that's 14 miles!  Ok, that's over 23km for all our metric
friends.

Oh, and it took the British 3 battleships, a carrier attack and several
torpedos to put the "Bismark" under.  The big
Super-Dreadnaughts could *really* take a beating and stay afloat! And as
long as they stayed afloat they could make repairs and continue to fight.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 97 17:02:20 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis

On 01/24/97 at 11:08 PM,  jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block) said:

> Hmm.  Take a large sensor drone, have it tow ten or twenty klicks (hell,
> we have the materiels tech for superdense hulls, one or two hundred
> klicks) of Sinclair molecule chain with sensor pods every X meters,
> communicating with the mother ship via comm laser.

While you're at it deploy EW decoy pods out there too!  Give those dang
missiles some fuzz to shoot at. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:54:58 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Long pig

[Combining message in the interests of efficiency.  It's time
for this to start winding down anyway....]
Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:02:59 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> I find this dubious.  Ritual cannibalism is not
>> unknown, but it has little to do with nutrition.

>Under the conditions existing on Vland, a culture that practices ritual
>cannibalism as a means of disposing of the dead will have a lot more
>readily available protien and nutrients
>
>This won't support them in the absence of "adequate" suppkies of
>treated local food. But as an *addition* to those supplies it will give
>the groups practicing it a definite advantage, Not a *large* advantage,
>but an advantage, nonetheless.

[Stuff about not throwing away the nutrition in your dead.]

The fact is that if this was true on Vland, it would be true
on Earth.  Societies were the numbers are limited by the
food supply are not hard to find.

>This actually applies to the places where it was practiced most
>recently on Earth. They believed that you got the strength of the enemy
>warrior by eating him. Well, that *extra* protien in what is
>essentially a *subsistence level* society *does* give some extra
>strength.

Ritual cannibalism is usually carried on a scale that makes
little difference in the amount of food available.  Also,
it often involves eating parts with symbolic attachement
(such as the heart) and throwing away most of the nutritial
value.  Lastly, there is no clear correlation between
ritual cannibalism and how well feed the society is.

>> OTOH, in human history cannibalism is _rare_.
>
>Oh? Various tribes in New Guinea, most of Polynesia, various African
>tribes, various Native American tribes, the Aztecs.

And these are basically almost all the instances world wide.
In fact they only represent a very small portion of the
societies that have existed on the planet.

>> People that will engage in mass murder won't resort to it.
>
>And people will engage in it that won't engage in mass-murder? So?

Exactly who engaged in cannibalism to preven mass-murder?
The fact is that the killing of your enemies in as great
a quantity as you can (be it war or genocide) is an
almost universal trait.  Cannibalism isn't.

>> More importantly, the fact is that since the Vilani have not
>> more reason to resort to cannibalism (see above) than humans,
>> what reason is there to believe it would be more common there?

>They *do* have more reason. If nothing else, it's a *major* waste of
>usable nutrients to dispose of a dead body by any means *other* than
>eating it. That *conserves* nutrients that would otherwise be dispersed
>back into the environment.

Human cultures have similarly pressed.  After all, cannibalism isn't
prevalent in artic or dessert climates.

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:43:00 -0000
From: Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk>
Subject: Re:  I'm back... with new books

Hi Thomas,

Thomas Biskup wrote:
T>P.S.: Did anyone have a problem with the Traveller website?  The last two
T>times I visited the new site I both times had the problem that I received
T>black background and black text for most of the stuff (product
T>announcements, etc.).  This happened both under Netscape 2.something under
T>Windows and Netscape 3.0 under SunOS.  It's somewhat annoying having to
T>read the HTML sources to get the information :-)

The problem occurs on some Browsers because they don't support background
colours in table cells.  In these browsers instead of seeing black text on a
grey cell background you just get black text on the mostly black starfield
background :-(.  I mailed Dave Bullock outlining this problem and he said
that _extensive_ (?) testing is done on Explorer 3 for Win95, Netscape 3.0
for Win95, Netscape 3 for solaris and Lynx 2.6.2.

I pointed out that IMHO that wasn't very extensive, he didn't reply back
(Dave - my apologies if I rubbed you up the wrong way).

I'm using Ibrowse for the Amiga so I can edit the HTML whilst it's
downloading if you can do the same try this:

just remove the BACKGROUND="starfield.gif" part of the body tag (probably
the quickest method) and update the page.  You can now view the page in it's
(less than technicolour) glory.

Jason
- -- 
"Remember, the Amiga will be with you...always"

                           Obi-wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:06:05 -0500
From: Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: RE: My triumphant return

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: The Commander's Triumphant Return 

>Great site!  Well put together, visually engaging.. a solid 8 out of >ten.

>One suggestion: change the link color to something other than that dark
>green, I couldn't read what the links were.

That shoulda been BLUE!  Will fix, thanx.  I am trying for a 9, if not a
ten <not even I am perfect, notorious typo-ist for one... ;-) >
- -- 
Commander X, Count of Dimension X, ODR,...etc...
(cmdrx@magicnet.com <or> bprankard@theiia.org)
Creator, Maintainor, and Webmeister of "Planet X"
(www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:58:12 -0700
From: Sanders <kalin@swlink.net>
Subject: Traveller Auction...

Here's another stab at a Traveller Auction.

The Auction will run until Feb. 12, 1997.
All bids should be in dollar amounts.
Postage is $2.00 for first item, and .50 cents for each additional item.
Payment should be in either check or money order.
Prompt payment is appreciated.

The following persons bid and did not pay in past auctions, and are not
welcome to bid in this one.

lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
NVDoyle@aol.com
Ted7@world.std.com
Danny_M._Moody@bridge.com
balcom@dayton.net

CLASSIC TRAVELLER:
- ------------------

"Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #1: Soldiers of Fortune" (SJG)
 Circa: 1982. Scale: 15mm. Condition: Mint. (Uncut)
 Bid:

"Pilots Guide To The Caledon Subsector" by J. Andrew Keith 
 Circa: 1984. Pages: 74. Condition: Mint. (Bound Manuscript)
 Bid:

"Imperial Lines #2" (GDW)
 Circa: 1992. Pages: 8. Condition: Mint. (Fanzine)
 Bid:

"Challenge Magazine #25" (GDW)
 Circa: 1986. Pages: 48. Condition: Good.
 Bid:


MEGATRAVELLER:
- --------------

"101 Vehicles" (DGP)
 Circa: 1988. Pages: 49. Condition: Good.
 Bid:

"Travellers' Digest #19" (DGP)
 Circa: 1990. Pages: 56. Condition: Good.
 Bid:

"Hard Times" by Charles E. Gannon (GDW)
 Circa: 1991. Pages: 96. Condition: Mint.
 Bid:

"Laboratory Ship - Deckplans" (Seeker)
 Circa: 1989. Scale: 25mm. Condition: Mint. (Shrink Wrapped)
 Bid:

"Subsidized Merchant - Deckplans" (Seeker)
 Circa: 1990. Scale: 25mm. Condition: Mint. (Shrink Wrapped)
 Bid:


TRAVELLER - TNE:
- ----------------

"Clipper Module Weapons Bay" #5819 (RAFM)
 Circa: 199?. Scale: ?. Condition: Mint. (Blister Pack)
 Bid:

"Ship's Boat" #5811 (RAFM)
 Circa: 199?. Scale: ?. Condition: Mint. (Blister Pack)
 Bid:


MISC.:
- ------

"The Praesidium Of Archive" by Jefferson Swycaffer (Avon)
 Circa: 1986. Pages: 196. Condition: Fine. (Traveller Inspired Novel)
 Bid:

"SpaceGamer Magazine #15" (Metagaming)
 Circa: 1978. Pages: 31. Condition: Good. (Article: "Robotics In Traveller")
 Bid:

"Journeys Magazine #2" (GDW)
 Circa: 1992. Pages: 47. Condition: Fine.
 Bid:

"Sniper! - Special Forces" (SPI)
 Circa: 1992. Pages: Folio. Condition: Good. (Unpunched)

- -----

That's it for the present. I will post updates every day or so.

Ad Astra,
Paul
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:55:45 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Whither the dreadnaught?

John P. Raynor wrote:

> Is this really true, though?  Suppose you have a fighter, and a
> dreadnought, with identical acceleration capabilities and hull
> configurations.  The distance between the ends of the dreadnought's
> hull, and the point upon which it pivots when it changes its heading,
> is going to be considerably longer than the corresponding distance
> for the fighter.  Shouldn't a dreadnought's frame experience more
> stress than the fighter's, when conducting similiar maneuvers?  Crew,
> and acceleration-sensitive equipment, might not fare well close
> to the bow and stern of a rapidly-turning dreadnought.  Yes,
> wonderful esoteric materials will make "stiffer" hulls, capable of
> taking more self-inflicted maneuver-related punishment, possible, but
> for a dreadnought to maneuver like a fighter, a larger fraction of its
> available volume is going to have to be dedicated to braces, inertial
> compensators, G-tanks, and so forth...


Thinking in terms of aerodynamic fighters is not correct here.  Todays
fighter gains advantages through an order of magnitude speed
differential over ships, and the same increse in maneuverablity.  Take
this away and you have a situation akin to Iranian gunboats attacking US
ships in the Persian-strike that-Arabian Gulf.  

A dreadnought will have to have more bracing and icompensators, but 6g
is 6g.  Time to turn and put the thrust vector on the desired point will
be variable depending on the moment of inertia of the craft, roughly
related to the mass.  Fighters and other small ships will always be more
nimble.  But what if the ships WWII fighters were attacking were able to
fly and at the same speed of the fighter?   Much different situation. 
Thse ships will probably have big Vc on each other, which is read "Vee
sub Cee"  and stands for closure velocity.  An attacking fighter will
probably have one chance to attack with short range weapons, then it can
take all the receding shots it wants.  It will take hours to rematch
vectors.

BTW, the vaunted aircraft has probably met its match with directed
energy weapons-I know this threat and it scares the hell out of me. 
Matching vectors in close range to an Imperial fleet is not a good
idea-relative speed is life.

mTomofthesixlegs

> A problem: big maneuverable dreadnoughts ought to be spherical.
> Being spherical, in a universe with meson guns, is bad, however, and
> it's also bad because it limits spinal weapon length.  Heavy and
> redundant meson screening would help, and if you used a *circular*
> or *spiral* "spinal" mount (the "equatorial gun"), you could have
> the best of both worlds...
> 
>                                                          - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:14:27 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Tech Level

Peter Newman writes:

>        I believe that these TL 14 Vac Suits from the Rule of Man (high 
>TL 12) can be explained (if you WANT to explain them) as being an 
>example of an Achievment Tech Level in Spacesuits of Tl 14 which was 
>above the Second Imperiums Hich Common Tech Level of 12.
>
>        This would explain the Tl 14 Vac Suits without declaring the 
>Central Supply Catalog to be wrong AND preserve the cannonical 
>information that the Rule of Man was TL 12.

   Except that vac suit technology is an extremely narrow field, which
requires major advances in environmental control, electronics, materials
technology and every other field that goes into putting a suit like that
together.  Otherwise, it would be like having discarding sabot rounds
for a rifled musket.  That might fly on an episode of the "Wild, Wild,
West" (American TV show) but not here.

>  The Second Empire was TL 12 it just happens that they had a few 
>planets that made a few experimental TL 14 Vac Suits.  (In much the 
>same way that the Tl 15 Imperium (circa 1100) put TL 17 experimental 
>AI computers (a very bad idea...) on its otherwise TL 15 Kinunir 
>ships.)

   As I recall the problem with making an AI computer/robot in the
pre-TNE days was not building it (synaptic processors were expensive but
available) the problem is that the technology isn't there to build one
that can keep its sanity for very long (remember the story of the
scientists who keep being put on trial for new crimes their rougue
courier robots committed while on the loose?).  It is not until TL 16
that stable AI becomes possible, and "smart" AI at TL 17.

   Also, the generally accepted tech level of the Second Imperium was
12, with some worlds (presumably Terra being one) that managed to
achieve low TL 13.  By way of comparison, many worlds in the Third
Imperium achieved high TL 15, and several were already TL 16 by 1116.

>        The MegaTraveller World Builders Handbook (pg 83-86) provides 
>the ability to detail the Tech Level into the High Common Tech Level (TL 
>8 on Earth in 1997 AD in the 1st world), the Low Common Tech Level (TL 5 
>on Earth in 1997 AD in the 3rd world, 11 Achievement Tech Levels in 
>specific areas: Energy, Computers/Robotics, Communications, Medical, 
>Environment, Land Transport, Water Transport, Air Transport, Space 
>Transport, Personal Military, and Heavy Military and a novelty Tech 
>Level which is the highest of one of the following: the highest 
>Achievment Tech Level, the previous Tech Level on the planet if it has 
>regressed, or that of imported novelties.

   My impression has always been that even "novelty tech level" was
suppose to cover one of the broad areas you just mentioned, not
something as specific as a vac suit.  While I might buy a TL 14 robot or
medical scanner (areas that the Second Imperium was supposed to be
"highly advanced" in according to canon), even these would probably not
be available around Sylea, and certainly wouldn't have been mass
produced.

>  The Price of these suits is_very_wrong however. 

   Not that I agree that the suit should even exist, but assuming such a
thing were available, I would think that the government would want to
round up as many as possible for study.  An analysis of the wiring alone
would would lead to major breakthroughs in the field of Electronics. 
Thus, it is unlikely that such suits would be available on the open
market.  Also, let me get this straight--people are willing to trust
their lives to equipment that is over 1,000 years old?  Granted, at TL
14 seals are made of better, longer lasting stuff, but they would hold
up for that long?(!)  If you were to buy such a suit (again, assuming it
were available as described), it would be like owning a bottle of wine
corked in 1697--you don't intend to ever use (drink) it, but it makes a
lovely conversation piece in the den.

Regards,

Harold

P.S.  Many of you are probably wondering at this point, "is a bloody TL
14 vac suit worth raising a major alarm over?"  The answer is of course
not, unless you look at the larger picture.  My fear is that the
creeping historical revisionism (which began with the changes to the
Sylea subsector) is going to continue, intentionally or unintentionally,
until the background history contained in the pre-TNE books is basically
worthless.

- --h

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #883
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 884



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle
Re: Distribution problems
Re: Fighters buzzing around battleships
Real-World Origins of Battlecruisers
Re: Jump Drives/Space
Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
Re: White dwarf stars
IMPERIUM GAMES WEB NEWSLETTER
Whither QSDS/SSDS?
Re: Whither the dreadnaught?
IG Web Foolishness (was Re: I'm back... with new books)
Re: DNs and Cruisers
Re: Real-World Origins of Battlecruisers
Re: Fighters buzzing around battleships
Traveller Drinking Game
Re: possible T4 errata?
CSC, a review
Battlecruisers, Pocket Battleships, and Jackie Fisher
Re: Fighters buzzing around battleships
IG Website

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:37:59 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: FSA 6.66 GME Very Large Game Gauss Rifle

Scott Levy wrote:
> A company here in Australia has just started producing a rifle based on a
> old tiger hunting design from India. It fires a slow moving 4 Bore round
> (1") and give a TKO of 350.
> The speed of the larger rounds would give them tragectories like rainbows
> but most big game would be shot at close range. Most of the big game rifles
> used to be double barrelled so as to have a second shot ready if a second
> animal appeared at the sound of the shot and charged.
> All of the above is based solely on reading, I don't think rabbits could be
> classed as dangerous game and they seldom charge.

I dunno; a vorpal bunny can be pretty mean.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:21:47 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: Distribution problems

Rich Ostorero wrote:

[snippage]
>
>Of course, we disagree: B5 is a lively newcomer and _Exile_ will be
>WWGS' usual triumph of style over substance . . . Trav is the Real Thing
>in sfrpgs. Now to convince your UFLGSO . . . .


        Well, actually, I have heard from a source who heard it from a
White Wolf staffer that Exile is having some problems.  Firstly, somebody
else copyrighted the name, so it is now The As Of Yet Unpublished RPG
Formerly Known As Exile (TAOYURFKE).  Secondly, WWGS unloaded TAOYURFKE
onto another company and are wishing them the best of luck.

        I'm not too worried about Exile.

        But as far as WWGS goes, I've got to say that I really like their
system.  I think that how they handle mental and social stats makes a lot
more sense than T4's for example...  you have stats for Intelligence,
Perception and Wits (mental horsepower, perceptiveness, and ability to
think quickly in a crunch), and Appearance, Charisma, and Manipulation.
Education is subsumed into the Knowledges branch of skills, and social
status is under a completely different area of the charsheet called
backgrounds.

        I was seriously considering doing a houserule switch to a 9-digit
White Wolf based UPP in my T4 campaign, but I figured that I might as well
give the basic system a whirl before I started retrofitting stuff to it.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:21:50 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: Fighters buzzing around battleships

Tom Lane wrote:

[snippage
>> >What other precedent do we have to draw from?  Remember,Traveller is
>> >probably closer to science fact than most other SFRPGs.  Fighters don't
>> >whiz around battleships blowing them up with single shots.  They follow
>> >vectors and accelerations, and are basically limited to 6G like the rest
>> >of Traveller canon.
>> >
>>
>>         Unless, of course, you start building fighters with HEPlaR
>> auxiliary drives.  With drop tanks for reaction mass and G-tanks for the
>> crew to supplement their I-comps, things could get quite interesting.
>>
>>         I think I might just spike the water cooler down at Famille
>> Spofulams Yards with some amphetamines and hallucinogens and set the design
>> team loose..:)
>
>
>Absolutely right.  Measures can be taken.  However, the problem is not
>really overcoming a 6g load.  The problem is overcoming inertia, or the
>relative closure velocity.
>
>These velocities may be as high as 200,000 mph between opposing fleets,
>and even 40g drives cannot allow a fighter to match vectors then buzz
>around a bship.
>
>Think of submarines instead of aircraft, and you'll see a better match.
>By the way, I'd love to visit your shipyard.  Are you the inventor of
>the thremonuclear pogo stick?
>
>Tom


        Guilty as charged :).  The pogo stick was indeed my design.

        As far as the fighters go, well, I had in mind something just
barely large enough to pack a small NPAW, with full EMM, that would close
at high acceleration, popping out missiles and countermeasures as it went,
opening up with its NPAW when in range, continuing to fire as it passed,
and continuing to fire once passed.  Of course, this might no longer
qualify as a fighter by Trav standards.  The missiles, would be
accellerating at the same number of G's as the fighter, so the enemy
defenses would be presented with a wave arriving at the same time, and
would have to choose between shooting at the missiles or the fighter. The
missiles would only go into hi-G boost at the last minute, to avoid point
defense systems and not have them going off too close to the fighter.  I'd
think that a successful attack with a wing of these would depend on timing;
you'd want your capital ships coming within range at about the same time as
the fighters are over-running the enemy line, so that the other side is
rather...occupied as you open up on them.

        Given that I have absolutely zero experience with T4's fleet combat
system (I have played SFB and love the ISC ships), it has occurred to me
that I could very well be out to lunch in the Oort on this one, though.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:33:07 -0500
From: "Matthew R. Briggs" <briggsm@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
Subject: Real-World Origins of Battlecruisers

Kind Friends,
	I've seen some discussion on what battlecruisers were for on Earth, but =
nobody has quite hit it on the head yet, so I thought I would offer what =
I could.  I don't want to set off a discussion that has little to do =
with Traveller, but I thought someone might find some details =
interesting.  Here we go!
	Battlecruisers were first developed in the frantic naval buildup before =
the First World War.  They were essentially battleships (dreadnoughts) =
that sacrificed protection for speed.  Their purpose was to screen ahead =
of the main battle line, and to pursue an escaping fleet.  Admiral =
Beatty (IIRC) commanded a battlecruiser squadron at the Battle of =
Jutland in 1916 that got in a completely separate action with the =
battlecruisers of the German High Seas Fleet.
	The HMS Hood, which was mentioned in an earlier post, was built in 1918 =
and represents the ultimate development of the battlecruiser.  She =
displaced 42,000 tons (that's water, not hydrogen) as compared to 35,000 =
tons for the best contemporary battleship class, the Queen Elizabeth, =
and was armed with 8 15in guns (IIRC). She was not only the longest but =
the largest warship in the Royal Navy until WWII.  The Hood also played =
up the weaknesses of the battleship when she was destroyed by a single =
salvo from the 14in guns of the Bismarck, one round of which struck the =
top of her "B" turret (that's #2 from the bow) and set off the cordite =
charges kept in the ready magazine.  A pretty big debate still revolves =
around whether planned improvements to her armor would have saved the =
ship...check out the WWII newsgroup (soc.history.war.world-war-ii, I =
think) for the continuing discussion.
	The U.S. never really built any battlecruisers, aside from the "Large =
Cruiser" class of warships, numbering two, including the Guam and also =
the Alaska (I think, but someone else mentioned the Alaska as part of a =
planned superdreadnought class that was never built, and I've never =
heard of).  These ships were built near the end of WWII to fight a class =
of Japanese heavy cruisers that turned out not to exist.  They were =
essentially scaled-down versions of the Iowa class, mounting 9 12-inch =
guns and 12 (I think) 5in/38s.  Because they were protected relatively =
well, they probably don't count as true battlecruisers.
	The ex-Soviet Kirov-class missile cruisers are sometimes called =
battlecruisers, but these days the term just doesn't have the same =
meaning.  The Kirovs (I think they have been renamed now) are big and =
nuclear-powered and pack a tremendous punch in the form of big =
surface-to-surface missiles, but protection isn't a key issue in their =
design.  'Battlecruiser' in this case sets them off against smaller =
cruiser-type ships.
	In Traveller, I see battlecruisers playing much the same role as they =
did in WWI.  Protection can be sacrificed for speed, but in this case it =
could take the form of a better J-Rating.  There are implications of =
arriving insystem without the support of the heavy ships that need to be =
addressed in this case, though.  The important thing to note is that a =
battlecruiser doesn't have to be smaller than a battleship, and the =
firepower could be comparable.
	I hope that this sheds a little light on the question.  Rebuttal is =
welcome!

__________
Matthew R. Briggs
briggsm@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
The George Washington University

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:43:47 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives/Space

Andrew Boulton wrote:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <32E836A2.3C7C@flash.net>
> 
> << > > > 7.  Requests for help via com laser from a needle-shaped
> transparent ship
> > > > orbiting a ringworld. (Ringworld...anybody remember Chaosium?)
> > >
> > > Arrgh! I used to *own* a copy of that... I can't believe that I
> forgot it.
> >
> >    Speaking of which...if _anyone_ has a copy of this game, let me
> know!
> 
> I have a copy of it and its supplements. What's up? >>
> 
> 'supplementS'? Plural? I thought there was only one?

Sorry, singular. (typo)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:05:49 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 01/24/97 at 11:08 PM,  jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block) said:
> 
> > Hmm.  Take a large sensor drone, have it tow ten or twenty klicks (hell,
> > we have the materiels tech for superdense hulls, one or two hundred
> > klicks) of Sinclair molecule chain with sensor pods every X meters,
> > communicating with the mother ship via comm laser.
> 
> While you're at it deploy EW decoy pods out there too!  Give those dang
> missiles some fuzz to shoot at. ;->

How about linking some Hi-G missiles to the sensor drones?. As soon as
an aggressor lights up his Active EMS to pick off the drones (assuming
he's dumb enough to do this), the attending missiles auto-lock and home
in. Allocate about 6 missiles to each drone and any non-capital ship
gets a nasty surprise.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 20:05:39 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: White dwarf stars

Hugh Johnson writes:

>Hi! This is my first post to the list.  This is also my first stupid
>question to the list. 

   There are no stupid questions.  Well, maybe a couple, but they
involve near light rocks and the combination to Strephon's person
safe....

>Do all white dwarf stars evolve from the main sequence stars, or can they
>start out as such?  

   For pretty much all practical purposes, white dwarfs stars evolve
from main sequence stars.  No star starts out as a white dwarf, in any
event, period.  Stars like our Sun start life evolving rapidly from
condensations in nebula to proto-stars and onto the main sequence, where
they remain so long as they have hydrogen to burn.  Once the hyrogen
supply runs out, they begin to expand into the red giant phase, where
they burn helium (the byproduct of all that hydrogen fusion).  Once all
the helium has been expended, the star begins a process of rapid
contraction (which is sometimes accompanied by a violent explosion
called a 'nova') which results in a white dwarf.  A white dwarf isn't
burning anything--the collapse of all that matter into a space much
smaller than the star was originally ensures that the mass (called
degenerate matter) will remain rather hot for many, many years. 
Eventually (and we are talking here about billions of years), the white
dwarf will lose the last of its residual heat and become a black
dwarf--a dead body in space waiting to be recycled by the Universe.

>And could someone please explain "why," either way?  The
>question stems from detailing a star system; should the first few orbits be
>empty?  Wow, I guess that was three stupid questions.

   In a star system in which a white dwarf exists, you should place
planets and asteroid belts as though the white dwarf were a small red
giant star.  Why?  Because at one time in the solar system's life that
white dwarf *was* a red giant star, and it is highly unlikely that any
new planets would be formed after the red giant contracted into the
white dwarf phase.  This of course is contrary Traveller rules, but then
we are talking about a bit of canon that is just flat wrong, thus I have
no problem disposing of it in the face of scientific reality.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:33:32 -0800
From: David Bullock <dbullock@cris.com>
Subject: IMPERIUM GAMES WEB NEWSLETTER

Editor's Note:  Typographical, etc. errors are my fault, not Imperium
Games.

1.	LETTER FROM THE PRESIDENT OF IMPERIUM GAMES
	DELUXE T4 RULES HARDBACK LIMITED NUMBERED EDITION:

	We at Imperium have received lots of complaints and requests for
	a new and improved edition of the Traveller Rule book due to
	grammatical errors, missing errata, and other such mishaps.  As
	many of you know, it was not the current management that was
	responsible for this book, however, in the interest of showing
	you, the patrons, that we care we are considering reprinting a
	new hardback version of the T4 Rule book.  Having read the
	comments from you we are thinking about releasing a new version
	which would incorporate the following:

	A hardback (properly bound version) correcting all of the
	grammatical and typographical errors, as well as, reorganizing
	the layout of certain difficult to follow sections.  Including
	as much missing essential errata as is economically possible
	(i.e. the jump potential table).

	As a bonus, and to partially make up for Starships we would
	include a "Starship design System" within the main rulebook
	which would include all necessary information and would be
	designed by Marc Miller.

	The book would be a one time special edition, with a gold
	foil stamp and individually numbered by the printer.  The
	limited version would only be 1500 copies and could only be
	ordered via the internet.  Delivery would be within three
	business days of our receipt of the book from the printer
	(i.e. priority mail) and would be safely secured and shipped
	in a bubble envelope to protect the contents.  The book 
	would be over 200 pages, and we will have a bunch of new
	Traveller relevant artwork done, and you will finally find
	out how the existing Foss work fits into the Traveller
	Universe.

	Finally, and best of all, we are making this a limited print
	run, internet only offer, so that we can give all of you a
	discount on your purchase to make up slightly for the
	mistakes of the past.  Unfortunately, the cost of redoing 
	this is high, but if you want it done right, then it generally
	costs more.  The cover price would be $32.95, however, for
	people who can show proof of purchase of the first hardcover
	or soft cover rulebook released by IG, we will give a $10.00
	discount so that the price would be $22.95 (the same as one of 
	our ordinary books) + S/H $5.00 in the US, $10.00 
	International.  Proof of purchase can be as easy as you
	E-mailing us and letting us know your name so that we can
	check our records for your first purchase.  We wish we could do 
	better, however, there are economic realities with which we must
	all live within.  

	We are thinking that we would try to have this out sometime in
	March.  As such, we would need to know from you now (i.e. in
	the next 10 days) whether you would order such a product.  We
	would not charge anyone until we 100% confirm that we are
	printing the book, but in order to justify doing it, we must
	first know that this is what you want.  So, please E-mail us 
	and let us know if you would be in or out.  If you have
	comments about what you would like added, please address such
	under a separate E-mail.  The E-mail about your interest should
	be addressed "T4 Deluxe Edition".  On a final note, if interest
	is significant enough, we will also work towards getting each book 
	signed and personalized to the buyer by Marc Miller (BTW ours 
	will show up signed as promised).  Thanks for listening and
	sharing your thoughts about the T4 rulebook with us.

	Courtney Solomon
	President Imperium Games Inc.

2.	TRAVELLER GAME SCREEN EARLY BIRD
	Time to make your gaming experience easier.  IG is proud to
	announce a special product which did not appear on the 1997
	release schedule - "THE TRAVELLER GAME SCREEN".  In
	February, IG will be releasing a four panel, full color, 
	Traveller game screen designed by Marc Miller.  The screen 
	will include essential tables for playing Traveller such as 
	combat tables, Starship Operations, etc.  The screen will be
	easy to read with all of the information presented in a way
	that Marc believes would be the most functional for easy access
	to essential information during game play.  In addition, the
	screen will contain a mini-adventure "Memory Alpha" designed
	and written by Marc Miller.  The screen will be selling for 
	$12.95, but early buy purchasers will receive a $2.95 discount
	making the screen $10.00 even.  Also, due to the light weight 
	of the screen we can ship to you in the US for $4.00 and
	internationally for $8.00.  Also, unlike the previous internet
	orders, you can be assured that you will be the first to
	receive your screen (no more my store has it and I don't) as
	we will ship all future internet orders immediately upon our
	receipt from the printer.  So, order your TRAVELLER PLAYERS
	SCREEN NOW!

	Orders must be entered through the online ordering system (which
	will be updated this weekend).  Ordering through e-mail will not
	work.

3.	HARDBACK COUNTDOWN
	There are only 10 hardbacks remaining.

4.	MILIEU 0 / FIRST SURVEY
	The release of Milieu 0 and First Survey will be delayed until
	February 10th, 1997.

5.	CD ROM
	Imperium Games request that I extend a hearty "THANK YOU" to
	everyone that responded to our request for comments and input
	on the Traveller CD-ROM.  IG very much appreciates the input
	and is evaluating the comments.  As IG is now evaluating the
	comments, if you haven't put in your comments yet, then now
	is the time.

6.	IG WEB MAILING NEWSLETTER
	We're now up to over 390 members.  If you're not getting your
	copy and you've signed up for it then your email address in
	our file is probably wrong.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:05:35 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Whither QSDS/SSDS?

>	As a bonus, and to partially make up for Starships we would
>	include a "Starship design System" within the main rulebook
>	which would include all necessary information and would be
>	designed by Marc Miller.
>

The above was in the latest IG website newsletter. I was wondering; does
this mean that the present design systems, which were done so lovingly and
under pressure by members of the TML and Beta lists, being scrapped? (The
above refers to a potential new Traveller hardcover for those who don't get
the list. See the IG website for details). I hope not, as I really like
those systems. Yes, they could stand some re-editing and reconciliation, but
they work and are very good. I wouldn't mind seeing Marc help with the above
process, but I hope we won't be losing our design systems...
                                        Allen Shock

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:16:27 -0800
From: bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Whither the dreadnaught?

At 05:45 PM 1/25/97 -0500, you wrote:

>A problem: big maneuverable dreadnoughts ought to be spherical.  
>Being spherical, in a universe with meson guns, is bad, however, and
>it's also bad because it limits spinal weapon length.  Heavy and
>redundant meson screening would help, and if you used a *circular*
>or *spiral* "spinal" mount (the "equatorial gun"), you could have
>the best of both worlds...

 Dreadnaughts can still be as fast as fighters, but not as manouverable.. 
 Also, this would make for some interesting ships, as you would have some
dreadnoughts that are more manouverable(for evasive manouvers) but not as
powerful and some dreadnaughts that are needles with *massivley* powerful
spinal mounts capable of cracking other dreadnaughts in a couple shots but
that are pretty nice targets.. Altho, you could just stick a unmanned
spinal mount into a sphericial hull(like a apple with a long, skinny pencil
through it).
bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:02:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: IG Web Foolishness (was Re: I'm back... with new books)

Quoth Jason Davies:
> Thomas Biskup wrote:
> T>P.S.: Did anyone have a problem with the Traveller website?  The last two
> T>times I visited the new site I both times had the problem that I received
> T>black background and black text for most of the stuff
> 
> The problem occurs on some Browsers because they don't support background
> colours in table cells....  I mailed Dave Bullock outlining this problem
> and he said that _extensive_ (?) testing is done on Explorer 3 for Win95,
> Netscape 3.0 for Win95, Netscape 3 for solaris and Lynx 2.6.2.  I pointed
> out that IMHO that wasn't very extensive, he didn't reply back

Does he realize that background colors in table cells isn't part of the
HTML 3.2 spec?  Methinks eager-beaver artsiness is here running ahead of
technical (and sensible, and commercially wise) compatability.  I don't
want the Netscape 3.0 Mac version hogging my CPU -- I use 2.0.  On my
Amiga, I use Voyager, which also has the problem.  Why would he
deliberately make life hard on customers, when the trick he's pulling
isn't even that crucial to the page layout?  (Hell, if he's so wound up
about colored boxes, he could write a cgi script to serve two different
versions of the document.  THAT would be the responsible way to do it....) 

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:30:26 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: DNs and Cruisers

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 01/25/97 at 12:05 AM,  Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net> said:
> 
> > A classic battlecruiser is, for example, the Graf Spee of the German Navy
> > of early WWII.
> 


I'll assume everyone saw Enis' excellent post. At least I got the bay
right.  So, what do the cruiser smoochers have to say about this?

Thanks Enis!

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:45:47 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Real-World Origins of Battlecruisers

Matt,

Thanks for the post.  I'm pretty sure the desien for the Alaska I saw
was a super dreadnought, but there is always room for error.  I think
her hull became a spiffy aircraft carrier instead.

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:37:32 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters buzzing around battleships

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> 
> Tom Lane wrote:
>         As far as the fighters go, well, I had in mind something just
> barely large enough to pack a small NPAW, with full EMM, that would close
> at high acceleration, popping out missiles and countermeasures as it went,
> opening up with its NPAW when in range, continuing to fire as it passed,
> and continuing to fire once passed.  Of course, this might no longer
> qualify as a fighter by Trav standards.  The missiles, would be
> accellerating at the same number of G's as the fighter, so the enemy
> defenses would be presented with a wave arriving at the same time, and
> would have to choose between shooting at the missiles or the fighter. 

Good idea.  I don't believe in g limits though.  Very artificial.  A
good game system should allow versatile design, perhaps allowing much
higher than 6g for fighters and much higher for missiles-depending on
energy/conversion formulas I wonsder if 100g is possible for missiles
with a burst fusion reaction.  Don't look for this in rulebooks, it
hasn't been written.  For personal edification base your gearheading on
e=mc2 and about a 95% efficiency, weapon the size of a modern torpedo.


Anyone know where Trav's 6g design limit really comes from?  Was it an
arbitrary game decision?

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:51:21 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Traveller Drinking Game

Going back through my backlog of mail in my inbasket, I came across:

>Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 04:22:23 GMT
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: Traveller Drinking Game (was: Re: Bar Table)
>From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)

>Not if they're playing the TRAVELLER DRINKING GAME! 
>
>Character uses an air/raft: one drink 
>Aslan challenges character to a duel: one drink 
>Character tries to circumvent law-level weaopns' limits: one drink 
>Character obeys weapons laws: three drinks 
>Character meets a robot: two drinks 
>Character meets an alien: one drink 
>Character meets an alien who isn't 
>  from one of the Major Races: two drinks 
>Character goes into a starport bar: one drink 
>Character dies during generation: three drinks 

We've had an uproarious time playing a homebrewed (pun intended) Star Wars
drinking game, and I was wondering if we could come up with some more of
these rules for a Traveller game!
- -- Dave Golden                         PGP Public Key available --
   goldendj@usa.net   http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:50:37 -0500
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@wizard.net>
Subject: Re: possible T4 errata?

David Golden said:
> AFAIK, it's possible for a graduate of one  academy to choose to 
> be commissioned into a different service, although only a few each year 
> do so. I've worked with Naval Academy guys who decided they didn't want 
> to go to sea or some such, and chose Air Force commissions. 

It's even possible to graduate from an academy and end up in the _enlisted_ 
ranks, or so I was told by the Zoomies with whom I went to grad school.  I 
believe you have to screw up fairly badly for them not to comission you, but 
it's happened.

- --Chris Weuve
caw@wizard.net (h)    caw@intercon.com (w/day)    chrisweuve@usa.net (perm) 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the 
things I cannot, and a great big bag of money."  [author unknown]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:29:06 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: CSC, a review

Now that is more like it!

A solid read, print not too large, fewer ugly pictures...a few snippets of humour (the 
robocat, and the sleeping bag)

I haven't even really started reading it yet, and I like it a lot

Of all the Traveller Four books so far, this is the only one that gets top marks (and I don't 
mean Millers)

Congratulations, and a round of applause are due to Mr. Porter...

<clap, clap, clap, clap>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:54:00 -0400
From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Subject: Battlecruisers, Pocket Battleships, and Jackie Fisher

Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net> wrote

>>Tom Lane wrote:
>>> Look forward to further discussion on this.  I would like to see a way a
>>> cruiser can really make a difference, as it would help my players a bit
>>> in theri upcoming campaign.
>>
>>All these posts have led me to ask a question:
>>
>>What is the role of a "battlecruiser"?
>>
>
>To circumvent militarily restrictive political agreements. Earlier comments
>in the list brought up the Graf Spee, a 'battlecruiser', which was designed
>by the German Navy after World War I and prior to World War II. The treaties
>that ended WWI limited the size (tonnage) of ships in the German Navy. they
>did not limit the size or number of weapons however. So a 'cruiser' sized
>hull was loaded up with 'dreadnaught' class weapons: Battlecruiser!  
>

Beg to differ.

The Graf Spee was widely described as a Pocket Battleship, but might be
better described as a large armoured cruiser than a battle cruiser.  It was
indeed developed during the period of the Washington Treaty, as a solution
to the problem of developing an effective fast surface raiders.  They were
designed to run away from Washinton-Era battleships, not duke it out with
them.  After they abandonned the treaty, the Germans also developed a couple
of quite good real battleships, which were considered far more dangerous --
the Bizmark was one of these.

The Battle Cruiser was invented at the turn of the century by Admiral Jackie
Fisher during his term as First Sea Lord.  Fisher was also the inventer of
the Dreadnaught itself.  Because early dreadnaught designs were too heavily
armoured and engines were not pwerful enough to pull much over (if memory
serves) 21-22 knots, Fisher specced a ship with the same weapons but far
less armour capable if a good turn more speed.  The idea was that it could
outfight anything which could catch it, and run away from anything it could
not fight.

They were very effectively deployed at the Falklands (1915? - the mind goes)
where they cleaned up the most dangerous fore of German suface raiding
cruisers.  9.2 or so guns against 12" is no contest.

The major problem of the battlecruisers was that they LOOKED like
Dreadnaughts.  When Beattie tried to face the German battle line with them
at Jutland, he was handed his head on a platter.  Beattie's squadron was not
known for the quality of its gunnery, which did not help.

They were basicly made obselete by the developemnt of the Fast Dreadnaught
(such as the King George V class, already in service at Jutland).

Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:01:21 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters buzzing around battleships

At 10:37 pm 01/25/97 -0800, Tom Lane said:
>Good idea.  I don't believe in g limits though.  Very artificial.  A
>good game system should allow versatile design, perhaps allowing much
>higher than 6g for fighters and much higher for missiles-depending on
>energy/conversion formulas I wonsder if 100g is possible for missiles
>with a burst fusion reaction.  Don't look for this in rulebooks, it
>hasn't been written.  For personal edification base your gearheading on
>e=mc2 and about a 95% efficiency, weapon the size of a modern torpedo.
>
>
>Anyone know where Trav's 6g design limit really comes from?  Was it an
>arbitrary game decision?

	I believe it was an arbitrary game decision held over from the time of
Classic Traveller. Note, however, that it was lifted in TNE/FF&S (and, by
extension, in QSDS/SSDS). The only limits now are the ability of the crew
to withstand Gs. And that's apparently gotten a boost in the vehicle
system, as well.
- -- Dave Golden                         PGP Public Key available --
   goldendj@usa.net   http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 20:59:46 -0800
From: David Bullock <dbullock@cris.com>
Subject: IG Website

>Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:43:00 -0000
>From: Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re:  I'm back... with new books
>
>Hi Thomas,
>
>Thomas Biskup wrote:
>T>P.S.: Did anyone have a problem with the Traveller website?  The last two
>T>times I visited the new site I both times had the problem that I received
>T>black background and black text for most of the stuff (product
>T>announcements, etc.).  This happened both under Netscape 2.something under
>T>Windows and Netscape 3.0 under SunOS.  It's somewhat annoying having to
>T>read the HTML sources to get the information :-)

Make sure you RELOAD or REFRESH the pages when you go to view them.  I set
meta tags in all of the pages to eliminate page caching, but it's up to the
browser to honor the tag.  I've made changes to all the affected web pages
that have been tested under SunOS and Netscape 3.0.  If you're looking at a
cached version of the page you'll get the old HTML code.

>The problem occurs on some Browsers because they don't support background
>colours in table cells.  In these browsers instead of seeing black text on a
>grey cell background you just get black text on the mostly black starfield
>background :-(.  I mailed Dave Bullock outlining this problem and he said
>that _extensive_ (?) testing is done on Explorer 3 for Win95, Netscape 3.0
>for Win95, Netscape 3 for solaris and Lynx 2.6.2.

Well <smile> it's more testing than most webmasters do, and part of my
qualification for extensive is that I continually check the pages as
they're being developed and when they're done.  To be honest I simply don't
(yet) have a sun box at my disposal to test the pages.  Hopefully that will
change at some point.  In the meantime I do a lot of email exchanging with
the people who do let me know of problems until I can get the site to the
best possible solution.

>I pointed out that IMHO that wasn't very extensive, he didn't reply back
>(Dave - my apologies if I rubbed you up the wrong way).

well I didn't have much to add :)

>just remove the BACKGROUND="starfield.gif" part of the body tag (probably
>the quickest method) and update the page.  You can now view the page in it's
>(less than technicolour) glory.

Maybe I can save my reputation here <grin>.  Your client probably won't let
you edit your live html, in which case you can also try turning off
"auto-image loading" to prevent the starfield from showing up.  I've set
the non-graphic page background on the affected pages to a light silver
color to show the black text clearly.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #884
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 885



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Historical battlecruisers (was Re: DNs and Cruisers)
Re: Fighters buzzing around battleships
Re: Gearhead Alert!!!! Critical Ship Displacement Question
Re: Traveller Drinking Game
Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEB NEWSLETTER
Re: DNs and Cruisers
Re: White dwarf stars
Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEB NEWSLETTER
Re: Ap Synth, Aegis, Big Nasty DNs, oh my!
Battleships, Battlecruisers and Dreadnaughts
Re: Vilani cannablism
Re: Battlecruisers
Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
Re: A new weapon for people - an idea
Re: Whither the dreadnaught?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:33:39 -0500
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@wizard.net>
Subject: Historical battlecruisers (was Re: DNs and Cruisers)

Tom Lane said:
> The battlecruiser occupies a station below battleship and above 
> cruiser, to my knowledge wtih obviously increasing power.  I do not 
> think they existed prior to just before WWII, when they were invented 
> by the crafty Germans as a way to violate/elude the naval tonnage 
> treaties of the day. 

Eris Reddoch said:
> Battlecruisers were a design theory running counter to the heavily 
> armored Dreadnaught theory.  They were build along side the 
> Dreadnaughts during the pre-WWI period. They never were really 
> very effective.  

The classic battlecruiser combines the speed of a cruiser with the big guns of 
a big-gun battleship (aka "dreadnought"), in a package about the size and 
displacement of a battleship. [BC Tiger, 1913, 28,430 tons, 704 ft long; BB 
Queen Elizabeth, 1913, 27,500 tons, 645 ft long]  If you think about this for 
a second, you realize the only way to do this is to sacrifice armor, and 
sacrifice armor they did.

Discussing the tactical justification for battlecruisers is difficult, because 
it was such a moving target -- which is somehow fitting for the ship for which 
the saying "speed is armor" was coined.  Initially, BCs were designed to 
harass enemy cruisers operating either as commerce raiders or as fleet scouts.  
They were able to beat anything which could catch them, and run from anything 
which could beat them.  

The problem, of course, was those big guns.  It takes a fleet commander of 
incredibly strong will to order a ship with 8x13.5in guns _away_ from the 
battle line.  As a result, battle cruisers were consistantly called upon to 
perform missions they were not designed to do and doctrinally weren't supposed 
to be doing.  As a result, they were not very effective and had a tendency to 
take high casualties.  Whether they were cost effective for doing the missions 
they were designed to do, however, is another question entirely, as those huge 
engines made them almost as expensive as a battleship.

Note that, at the time, BCs and BBs were often grouped together as 
"dreadnoughts" in reference to their all-big-gun nature, despite their very 
obvious tactical differences.

The data on Tiger and QE came from _Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 
1906-1921_.  For an excellent discussion of dreadnoughts, see _Dreadnought: 
Britain, Germany and the Coming of the Great War_ by Robert K. Massie.  

For a not-so-excellent discussion, see _Sacred Vessels_ by Robert O'Connell.  
O'Connells problem, I think, is that he is unable to separate BCs from BBs -- 
since they were both called dreadnoughts, he treats them the same way, and 
reaches conclusions that may apply to one and not the other, and does not 
differentiate between cases where sound doctrine was ignored and cases where 
the doctrine was not sound to begin with.  As a result, his conclusion (that 
battleships were _never_ effective) is overstated  at best.  It is still worth 
reading for some of the _design_ discussions, however, such as the increases 
in horsepower necessary to achieve incremental increases in speed at peak 
performance, and why someone might conclude that more smaller guns firing 
rapidly are better than big guns.

As well as I am recommending naval books, I cannot recommend _Fleet Tactics_ 
by Wayne Hughes highly enough.  It is a must-read for anyone designing fleet 
engagements.

- --Chris Weuve
caw@wizard.net (h)    caw@intercon.com (w/day)    chrisweuve@usa.net (perm) 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the 
things I cannot, and a great big bag of money."  [author unknown]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:10:51 -0800
From: bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters buzzing around battleships

At 10:37 PM 1/25/97 -0800, you wrote:


>Anyone know where Trav's 6g design limit really comes from?  Was it an
>arbitrary game decision?

 It comes from MegaTraveller .. altho in TNE, and as far as I know it does
not apply in those(and it is rather silly), so the only limits on speed are
what your powerplant and crew can take.
bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:55:59 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Gearhead Alert!!!! Critical Ship Displacement Question

Leonard Erickson writes:

>>    First, great analysis.  Second, you do not have Gearhead Virus. 
>> Anyone with "gearhead" would have finished his or her demonstration 
>> with a theoretical displacement for the Death Star (the original, 
>> not that stationary gun platform in the third movie).
>>
>>    I once speculated as to what *that* number might be, but then
>> regained my sanity.
>
>It's actually rather simple to figure (and a *lot* smaller than they'd
>have you believe). As I recall it works out to *well* under 20 km. 

   Now see, here's someone with Gearhead Virus!

   BTW, 20 km??!  I'd say it's far larger than that, at least 30 km,
based on how large it appears in relation to the Rebel fighters and how
long it takes them to traverse its surface.  Someone around here I'm
sure has the proper Star Wars RPG sourcebook with the correct answer.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:35:00 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Drinking Game

At 09:51 PM 1/25/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Going back through my backlog of mail in my inbasket, I came across:
>
>>Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 04:22:23 GMT
>>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>>Subject: Traveller Drinking Game (was: Re: Bar Table)
>>From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
>
>>Not if they're playing the TRAVELLER DRINKING GAME! 

The Traveller Drinking Game, Traveller light bulb jokes, and all things odd
can be found at Traveller: The Silly Era

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 01:34:10 -0500 (EST)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEB NEWSLETTER

Note:  I am sending this to IG, the TML, and GDW-Beta because I think it 
is extremely important that we let the new team at IG know that changing 
ship design systems mid-stream will only make matters worse.
 
> 	A hardback (properly bound version) correcting all of the
> 	grammatical and typographical errors, as well as, reorganizing
> 	the layout of certain difficult to follow sections.  Including
> 	as much missing essential errata as is economically possible
> 	(i.e. the jump potential table).

	An excellent and very welcome idea.  I would certainly be first 
in line to buy one.
 
> 	As a bonus, and to partially make up for Starships we would
> 	include a "Starship design System" within the main rulebook
> 	which would include all necessary information and would be
> 	designed by Marc Miller.

	Please _DON'T_ do this!  The last thing T4 needs is another ship
design system!  The QSDS and SSDS systems that appeared in the Main Rules
and Starships, respectively, were well received by the Traveller
community.  Though no design system is perfect, they are not only easy to
use but are compatible with each other and with the forthcoming
re-release of FF&S.  Introducing a new, incompatible, system would defeat
the purpose of these previous systems and simply create more confusion
about spacecraft in T4.
	Perhaps the one thing that the buying public did _not_ 
universally despise about the Starships book was the design system.  What 
we couldn't stand were the ships that Don Perrin put into the book that 
were not compatible with the design system, and the totally useless and 
amateurish deckplans.
	While we all look forward to Marc Miller's greater involvement in 
the T4 product line, his unique contributions would probably be of 
greater use in detailing the background, history, culture, and overall 
"vision" of Traveller.
	Thank you, and Happy Travelling.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 97 00:54:42 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: DNs and Cruisers

On 01/25/97 at 10:30 PM,  Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net> said:

> > > A classic battlecruiser is, for example, the Graf Spee of the German Navy
> > > of early WWII.

> I'll assume everyone saw Enis' excellent post. At least I got the bay
> right.  So, what do the cruiser smoochers have to say about this?

> Thanks Enis!

You're welcome, Tom. 

I pulled out a couple of my reference books when all this talk about
Dreadnaughts, came up and did a little rereading.  I'm an old history
teacher, and can't help but lecture once in a while. ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 01:54:43 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: White dwarf stars

Hugh Johnson writes:

>The next question is what would be the range of the star's increase for 
>class M9 through B0 of sizes VI through Ia?  Has anyone figured this 
>out or is there a formula for determining this?   I was working on a star 
>system with a type MD star when my wife brought up the question as to if 
>I could have planetary bodies in the closer orbits. 

   First, you don't need to worry about planets around size VI stars. 
That's because they are inherently metal poor (and other elements
heavier than helium), and unlikely to have anything other than a few
small hunks of dirty ice orbiting them (probably accidently stripped
from a main sequence star system during a "close" encounter).  If you
are familiar with TNE, that's why size VI stars suddenly disappeared
from stellar generations charts carried over from Book 6: Scouts.  I'm
not sure about a source for the other expansion information, but I'm
sure the Astronomer down at your local natural history museum will
know.  I have harassed/talked with the gentleman in charge of such
things at the Dayton Museum of Natural History a number of times over
the past several years, and he has been very helpful.

   Something that you should be aware of though: main sequence stars are
highly unlikely to have M type white dwarf companions (contrary to
previous Traveller rules).  Aside from the fact that M type white dwarfs
are basically pretty rare (we have yet to detect more than one or two
despite extensive searching for even fainter objects), it would be the
equivalent in human terms of being introduced to two men, one 25 and the
other 85, and being told they are brothers (have the same mother and
father).  Companion stars are routinely the same age or very close.

>Also as the star begins to collapse back into itself, would the
>gravitational pull of the star drag planets from the outer orbits back 
>with it into the closer orbits?

   Nope, because the gravity of the star would not change.  The pull of
gravity is measured from the center of mass, not the edge of the
object.  Thus, it would be possible to have a star with a sufficently
low density that safe jump points could be calculated from inside the
star (though I wouldn't try it).  On the other hand, if that collasping
star novas (blows off a bunch of material all at once), that *might*
change the mass of the star sufficently to cause an outer planet to
change its orbit, making the orbit highly elliptical or even allow the
planet to achieve escape velocity and be thrown out of the star system
entirely (a so-called 'rogue' planet).  Of course the debris from a nova
can wreak other kinds of havoc as well, though it is unlikely to result
in the kind of "stellar billards" (throwing planets into radically
different orbits) you may be looking for.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:41:35 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEB NEWSLETTER

> From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
> To: imperiumgames@imperiumgames.com
> Cc: traveller@mpgn.com; gdw-beta@qrc.com
> Subject: Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEB NEWSLETTER
> Date: Sunday, January 26, 1997 5:34 PM
> 
> > 	As a bonus, and to partially make up for Starships we would
> > 	include a "Starship design System" within the main rulebook
> > 	which would include all necessary information and would be
> > 	designed by Marc Miller.
> 
> 	Please _DON'T_ do this!  The last thing T4 needs is another ship
> design system!  The QSDS and SSDS systems that appeared in the Main Rules
> and Starships, respectively, were well received by the Traveller
> community.  Though no design system is perfect, they are not only easy to
> use but are compatible with each other and with the forthcoming
> re-release of FF&S.  Introducing a new, incompatible, system would defeat
> the purpose of these previous systems and simply create more confusion
> about spacecraft in T4.
> 	Perhaps the one thing that the buying public did _not_ 
> universally despise about the Starships book was the design system.  What

> we couldn't stand were the ships that Don Perrin put into the book that 
> were not compatible with the design system, and the totally useless and 
> amateurish deckplans.

Uh, well, I wouldn't agree *entirely* with this. The "stock" ships from the
T4 Main Rulebook cannot be designed with QSDS as presented in the Main
Rulebook. So a redesign of the ships with whatever system they *do* decide
to use is probably a must.

And, as far as I can tell, the QSDS/SSDS systems are *not* universally
loved by those people, like myself, who thought FFS stank to high heaven as
an overly (and needlessly) complex and basically useless system. It taints
QSDS/SSDS simply by virtue of being the basis for them. I (and a
significant number of others) would much preferred to have had a High Guard
based system. Were we a majority? Who knows! Would it be a good thing to
change horses in mid stream? I don't know -- *I* would say "yes", but I'm
just as biased one way as you are the other

Phil McGregor

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 01:40:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Ap Synth, Aegis, Big Nasty DNs, oh my!

> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:28:39 -0800
> From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
> 
> Craig Berry wrote:
> > The problem is that our canonical magic tech for Traveller explicitly
> > excludes FTL comm...and that's precisely what you need to make ap-synth
> > work over light-second distances and high relative speeds/accelerations.
> 
> The computer's use delayed vector/postion information predicted/tracked
> by each ship's computer to come up with targetting assignments, not the
> "real" stuff.  This does not require FTL, just a sacrifice in
> information accuracy. Secondly, you are assuming the system works
> perfectly.  I am not. This is a great element to add fog and friction to
> the game, as parts of the fleet sensor array are more adequate than
> others.  

OK, I think we have a confusion of terms here.  Aperture synthesis is a
trick used to make many small sensors separated by distance X behave like
a single big sensor of width X in terms of resolution.  Its only advantage
is this increase in resolution.

You can easily (well, not at *all* easily, but you *can*) do ap-synth
across 5 ls distances; the trouble is that useful data will be delayed 10
seconds (at minimum) from "real time" because of the requirement of
correlating positional info from all ships involved along with the sensor
data.  In combat, when using sensors for weapon targeting, a 10 second
delay equals utter uselessness.  See the existing impact of flat
round-trip lightspeed lag in BL/BR.

On the other hand, I can readily see a fleet going to a coordinated
deployment for ap-synth sensor sweeps while not in combat.  This would be
a good way to run patrols of a system, for example.  In this application,
the time delay is not harmful.

Ap synth is only the most extreme case of a broader technology called
"sensor fusion," the art of taking data from multiple sensors of many
types at various locations and "fusing" the data into a meaningful picture
of the battle environment.  Sensor fusion is good at finding targets in
noise; you may have seven suspicious IR sources, and fifteen unusual radio
sources...but only two bogies which are both at once.  Suddenly things get
a lot simpler.

Sensor fusion is the Big Thing among a lot of military gearheads just now,
and it'll likely be bigger still as computers permeate battle more and
more in the future.  I'm sure intrafleet comm is abuzz with sensor feeds
from ship to ship during a battle, most of which consist of some variation
on "Our IR sensor sees a 1700K source at 322/184...do you see anything
thereabouts?"  All asked and answered by computers, of course.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:55:04 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Battleships, Battlecruisers and Dreadnaughts

I've seen a lot of disscussion about Battleships,
Battlecruisers and Dreadnaughts and their appears
to be a little confusion as to what each term means.
So here goes my understanding of the terms:

Battleship: The term is derived from the sailing
era 'ship of the line of battle' or 'line of battle ship'. It
refers to a ship designed to defeat other ships by
weight of their fixed battery (the modern Russian
Kirov class are battleships).

Dreadnaught: A particular variant of battleship,
distinguished by having it main armarment of
allt he same calibre (to increase the accurate
range of the guns). With a very few exceptions
(a few French and Swedish ships), all battleships
designed after 1905 were dreadnaughts.

Battlecruiser: The term was first used in 1912 by
the RN (the type itself was the brain child of Lord
Jackie Fisher in 1906). It was initially simply an
extension of normal cruiser philosophy, in fact the
first battlecruisers were called armoured cruisers
like their predecessors from 1906 to 1912. Their
original role was simply that of cruisers (scouting,
commerce raiding and protection). The first
battlecruisers combined the speed and level of
protection of a regular armoured cruiser with the
firepower of a battleship. This lead to their use as
a fast division of the line of battle (and the destruction
of three of them at Jutland and subsequent radical
revision of the design parametres). The later
battlecruisers grew to be considerable larger than
battleships, combining the speed of a cruiser with
a level of protection only slightly inferior to that of a
battleship; they sacrifised firepower instead of
protection. If one looks closely at the last US
battleships (the Iowas) one finds that they are in
fact battlecruisers. Same level of firepower and
protection as the previous North Dakotas and South
Carolinas, but with 10,000 extra tons used to get
cruiser speed. A traveller battlecruiser might be say
a jump 5 or 6 capital ship.

Incidentally, the Admiral Graf Spee (and her two
sisters Deutschland and Admiral Speer) were
not battlecruisers. They were simply large
commerce raiders (12,000T, 6x28cm guns,
3 inch armour, 28 knots), that Graf Spee was
defeated by three cruisers is hardly suprising.
Even the two light cruisers were faster and far
better protected.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:54:51 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Vilani cannablism

On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:30:56 -0800
"David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov> did write

>Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:17:31 +1300, Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>>Not so I'm afraid. Before contact with Europeans the
>>NZ Maori regularly practised cannibalism. The practice
>>was highly ritualised and restricted to enemies who
>>had been defeated in battle (either as a mark of
>>respect or lack of respect depending on which
>>historian you read), but it was none the less a very
>>real fact of the culture.   Most anthropologists agree
>>the root cause was the lack of high protein sources
>>native to NZ.

>I find this dubious.  Ritual cannibalism is not
>unknown, but it has little to do with nutrition.
>Also, I don't see how NZ is lacking in protein
>sources.  As you yourself point out, the
>cannibalism had to with attitudes toward
>enemies (for example, we eat them to show
>they aren't human).  This is known in other
>parts of the world.  OTOH, I can't see how
>the protein idea could ever be more than
>speculation.

When the first Europeans arrived in the late 18th
and early 19th Centuries, one of the major things
they noticed was the extremely poor diet of the
Maori. NZ had only one large animal suitable as a
major protein source (the Moa), which had been
hunted to extinction by the Maori about 100-200
years earlier. The only other sources of protein
were a small rat, a small (and compartively rare)
dog (neither native to NZ), various birds (none
larger than a small parot) and some poorly
exploited coastal resources (The Maori lost their
sea going abilities with a few generations of the
migration). The Maori practiced cannibalism to a
far greater degree than any other polyinesian
culture (not just enemy warriors, but their women
and children too were killed and eaten). There is
evidence to support that the Maori raided with the
object of gaining captives to eat (much as the Aztecs
made war to gain captives to sacrifice). Every
anthropologist who has studied them has come to
the same conclusion: the root cause of this was a
lack of protein sources. The cannibalism was
justified by the ritual element, but it was neccesitated
by the lack of alternatives.

>>What does this show about the Vilani?

>Well, in fact the point still remains either way
>that the Vilani have no more reason to resort
>to cannibalism than humans.

Or no less reason than the Maori. (aside: don't you
mean Solomani? the Vilani are humans). One thing
that would be likely to be different however is that **if**
the Vilani were cannibalistic at one point, it would have
probably been quite widespread and they would be
unlikely to be ashamed of the fact. It would not be a
'Dirty little secret', more just a dispassionate fact.

Here's an interesting idea to bounce off people. One
factor which might restrain cannibalism in Vilani
culture: the Shugilii. Their power came from control
of the food supply, other Vilani could be eaten without
their intervention.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:12:52 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Battlecruisers

>	The HMS Hood, which was mentioned in an earlier post, was built in 1918 =
>and represents the ultimate development of the battlecruiser.  She =
>displaced 42,000 tons (that's water, not hydrogen) as compared to 35,000 =
>tons for the best contemporary battleship class, the Queen Elizabeth, =
>and was armed with 8 15in guns (IIRC). She was not only the longest but =
>the largest warship in the Royal Navy until WWII.  The Hood also played =
>up the weaknesses of the battleship when she was destroyed by a single =
>salvo from the 14in guns of the Bismarck, one round of which struck the =
>top of her "B" turret (that's #2 from the bow) and set off the cordite =
>charges kept in the ready magazine.  A pretty big debate still revolves =
>around whether planned improvements to her armor would have saved the =
>ship...check out the WWII newsgroup (soc.history.war.world-war-ii, I =
>think) for the continuing discussion.

Not quite right, recent evidence indicates the cause
of her loss was detonation of lose stored 4inch AA
ammunition amidships which then detonated the
six 21inch torpedoes in the tubes, which broke
her back (a clear flash amidship was seen from
POW a few seconds before the main explosion,
and Hood's turret armour was proof against the
15inch shells at the range of engagement).

>	The U.S. never really built any battlecruisers, aside from the "Large =
>Cruiser" class of warships, numbering two, including the Guam and also =
>the Alaska (I think, but someone else mentioned the Alaska as part of a =
>planned superdreadnought class that was never built, and I've never =
>heard of).  These ships were built near the end of WWII to fight a class =
>of Japanese heavy cruisers that turned out not to exist.  They were =
>essentially scaled-down versions of the Iowa class, mounting 9 12-inch =
>guns and 12 (I think) 5in/38s.  Because they were protected relatively =
>well, they probably don't count as true battlecruisers.

The Iowas themselves are battlecruisers, 10,000Tons bigger
than the North Carolinas and South Dakotas with the same
level of protection, same firepower and cruiser speed. A classic
battlecruiser.
However the US did plan and start six battlecruisers after the
1st WW (argueable the six worst ever designed). They were
killed by the Washington treaty, but two became the carriers
Lexington and Saratoga.

>	The ex-Soviet Kirov-class missile cruisers are sometimes called =
>battlecruisers, but these days the term just doesn't have the same =
>meaning.  The Kirovs (I think they have been renamed now) are big and =
>nuclear-powered and pack a tremendous punch in the form of big =
>surface-to-surface missiles, but protection isn't a key issue in their =
>design.  'Battlecruiser' in this case sets them off against smaller =
>cruiser-type ships.

The Kirovs are battleships, designed to overwhelm other
ships with their fixed battery (missiles).

>	In Traveller, I see battlecruisers playing much the same role as they =
>did in WWI.  Protection can be sacrificed for speed, but in this case it =
>could take the form of a better J-Rating.  There are implications of =
>arriving insystem without the support of the heavy ships that need to be =
>addressed in this case, though.  The important thing to note is that a =
>battlecruiser doesn't have to be smaller than a battleship, and the =
>firepower could be comparable.

I'd agree, but its not protection they'd sacrifice, but firepower.
Make them bigger, give them the same protection but reduce
their main armarment.

>	I hope that this sheds a little light on the question.  Rebuttal is =
>welcome!

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:15:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis

In mail you write:

> BTW, Craig, this is really helping me get an idea of how this stuff
> would work.  I need it.  I was also a physics major so feel free to lay
> some equations down if you feel you can prove why slt apsynth over a 5
> ls distance won't work.

The problem is that you have to combine and correlate the data streams.
Which means that you can't have both large distances *and* real-time
performance. 

For example, at 5 ls, you have ship A sending data to ship B, which has
to know "exactly" how long it took for the data to cross the gap, as
that's one of the parameters in the calculations. 

If it's "exactly" 5 seconds, then each ship "combines" the data it
receives directly with the data received 5 seconds later from the other
ship. The combining involves various things like trig and other messy
stuff. But it all boils down to "A saw X1 from direction Y1 at time Z1, B
saw X2 from Y2 at Z2". You combine the info and triangulate. 

So at 5 ls, you have a "data lag" of the 5 seconds it takes the signal
to cross the distance *plus* the processing time. 

And since the distance *will* vary, even if only by a little bit, that
changes the point in the your datastream that you are comparing with
the datastream from the other ship.

A good rule of thumb to remember is that light moves at about 1 foot
per nano-second (actually 11 point something inches). So 1 nanosecond
error anywhere is about a foot. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 20:06:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A new weapon for people - an idea

In mail you write:

> Thats, a nice idea.....I don't know how the physisists will take it, but 
> still, it has potential. I'll have to use it in my campaign, a shotgun laser 
> rifle, cool, well cool.

Reading the latest Scientific American gave me a weird idea for a
weapon. They were talking about very high energy cosmic rays. For
instance aparently about once a year a square km area will get a cosmic
ray of about 50 *joules*. 

In other words, a *single* atomic nucleus accelerated so close to light
speed that it has the energy of a well thrown *rock*.

Lord only knows *how* you'd do it, but I pictured a weapon that fires
such particles. Upon hitting air they'd induce a *huge* shower of
secondary particles. So in effect, the output is a narrow cone of very
high energy particles.

While the initial particle stops in a matter of cm, the secondaries
will go for km....

It isn't practical, but think of it as a way of testing the design
limits of your weapons design system. Treat it as a gauss weapon or a
mass driver, with a projectile of infitesmal mass, and incredible
velocity. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:42:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Whither the dreadnaught?

In mail you write:

> On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Tom Lane wrote:
>> 3)Speed in Traveller is acceleration.  There is nothing more.  6g=6g on
>> a cruiser or fighter.  A dreadnought with enough excess power(which
>> these big ships are engineered to have) can maneuver just as well as a
>> fighter(assuming equal accelerations.)
>
> Is this really true, though?  Suppose you have a fighter, and a 
> dreadnought, with identical acceleration capabilities and hull
> configurations.  The distance between the ends of the dreadnought's
> hull, and the point upon which it pivots when it changes its heading,
> is going to be considerably longer than the corresponding distance
> for the fighter.  Shouldn't a dreadnought's frame experience more
> stress than the fighter's, when conducting similiar maneuvers?  Crew,
> and acceleration-sensitive equipment, might not fare well close
> to the bow and stern of a rapidly-turning dreadnought.  Yes, 
> wonderful esoteric materials will make "stiffer" hulls, capable of 
> taking more self-inflicted maneuver-related punishment, possible, but
> for a dreadnought to maneuver like a fighter, a larger fraction of its
> available volume is going to have to be dedicated to braces, inertial
> compensators, G-tanks, and so forth...

Ah! But the rate at which the ship can change orientation has little do
do with the rate at which the ship can change *direction*. As long as
the ship can manage a 180 degree flip in significantly less than a
turn, rotational speed has no effect on course changes.

This is a consequence of the lack of air that folks keep overlooking.

> A problem: big maneuverable dreadnoughts ought to be spherical.  

Not really. But it is more efficient.

> Being spherical, in a universe with meson guns, is bad, however, and
> it's also bad because it limits spinal weapon length.  Heavy and
> redundant meson screening would help, and if you used a *circular*
> or *spiral* "spinal" mount (the "equatorial gun"), you could have
> the best of both worlds...

Spiral isn't a possibile configuration. But *circular* IS!.

Also, going by what hass been learned in building particle accelerators
for *research, it's safe to say that the beam(s) can go around the ship
several times. It's easiest to have them exit at a tangent to the ring,
but that's not really a problem. 

Also, with decent amounts of "standby" power, and a good design, you
can do several interesting things. First, you can maiuntain a
"circulating" beam. That is, many many bursts, oor even a continous
stream, circling all the time. And you can have multiple firing ports
for one ring. So with one ring, you could fire several shots at the
same time! But they'd have to be in different directions. Still, it's
useful.

If the design rules *don't* allow for this, they *should*.

For an account of such weapons taken to extremes, read Fritz Lieber's
"The Wanderer". It has battles between *planet* sized ships, using
particle beams from things like linear accelerators running clear
through them, and circular ones wrapped around them. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #885
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 886



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Battleships, Battlecruisers and Dreadnaughts
DeathStar Size
Traveller stuff for sale
Classic Traveller Auction #6
Looking for old posts
Re: Whither the dreadnought
Re: Lots of complaints.
Re: IG News Letter
Re: Supression Fire
CSC Errata
Re: IG Web Newsletter/Errata
reading matter
Circular PAWS
Re: Traveller stuff for sale
Re: Whither QSDS/SSDS?
Re: Battlecruisers
IG Web Foolishness (was Re: I'm back... with new books)
Re: Traveller Auction: Update #1
Re: reading matter
Re: A new weapon for people - an idea

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:40:52 -0500
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@wizard.net>
Subject: Re: Battleships, Battlecruisers and Dreadnaughts

Andrew Vallance said:
> The later battlecruisers grew to be considerable larger than 
> battleships, combining the speed of a cruiser with a level of 
> protection only slightly inferior to that of a battleship; they 
> sacrifised firepower instead of protection. If one looks closely at 
> the last US battleships (the Iowas) one finds that they are in 
> fact battlecruisers. Same level of firepower and protection as 
> the previous North Dakotas and South Carolinas, but with 10,000 extra 
> tons used to get cruiser speed. 

Um, isn't that _South_ Dakota and _North_ Carolina classes?  <g>

The "Iowa's are battlecruisers" argument is one I have heard before, and I 
just don't buy it.  The key distinction between BBs and BCs is in the areas of 
armor protection.  As you pointed out, the Iowa-class were just as well-
armored as their predecessors (belt armor was .1 inches thinner, but turret 
armor 1.armor was 1.7 inches thicker, and bulkhead was .3 inches thicker) -- 
they _could_ stand in the battle line and absorb punishment, whereas a 
battlecruiser could not. If you call a ship as heavily armored as a BB a BC, 
then you might as well designated the South Dakotas as being "slow BCs".  

I think the fuzziness here is due to two factors.  First, the role of the 
battleship had changed by the time the Iowa class was laid down, when it was 
apparent that if a battleship was to have a meaningful role (and hence a 
reasons to be built), it had to keep up with the carriers, and that meant 
speed, which in turn (for hydrodynamic reasons) meant a longer hull.  Second, 
the US was committed to being able to fit its ships through the Panama Canal, 
which meant that the ships could not get any wider (they have about a foot 
clearance in the locks as is), which further optimized the ships for speed.  
And so a new category, "fast battleship", was born.

What does this have to do with Traveller?  I think it serves as a bit of a 
lesson.  Traveller players have always been better than the designers of some 
other games (e.g., _Starfire_), about simply running WW2 through the science 
fiction converter to get space combat.  It's always good to analyze what the 
ship is supposed to do and rate it that way than simply use an historical 
system.  Such systems become obsolete with time.

- --Chris Weuve
caw@wizard.net (h)    caw@intercon.com (w/day)    chrisweuve@usa.net (perm) 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the 
things I cannot, and a great big bag of money."  [author unknown]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:17:06 +0000
From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Subject: DeathStar Size

According to the Star Wars Essential guide to Vessels and Vehicles.

Death Star: 120 km in Diameter
Death Star II: 160 km in Diameter
Death Star Prototype: 120 km in Diameter
The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:12:46 +0000
From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Subject: Traveller stuff for sale

the FlGS here in Bloomington Illinois has a fair quantity of old GDW 
traveller stuff.
they are selling it at Retail price, and do mail orders

they also have some of the other GDW RPG products again at retail 
price.

I have a list of the old traveller stuff they have
but I wasnt sure if it would be ok to post it

the store is called Adventureland

if nobody objects I will post further details

The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:15:56 GMT
From: sdollar@goodnet.com (Stuart L. Dollar)
Subject: Classic Traveller Auction #6

A friend of mine has the following Classic Traveller Items available
for Auction:

1) Traveller Boxed Set:
Books 1-3
1st Edition (1977), 5th Printing
Very Good Condition

$25:  34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu
$20:  ross@ican.net

2) Traveller Boxed Set
Books 1-3
1st Edition (1977), 9th Printing
Very Good

$25:  ross@ican.net

3) Book 4, Mercenary
1st Edition (1978), 2nd Printing
Very Good
There are 2 copies of this one, in very similar condition.
(Collectors:  For those of you who are unaware, this printing had a
distinctive yellow stripe, instead of the burnt orange/brown of later
printings)

$15:  dmalnati@usa.net or dmalnati@absi.com
$10:  kieschef@cowen.com
$5:  34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu

4) Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society #6
Very Good

$5:  caw@wizard.net/caw@intercon.com/chrisweuve@usa.net 


Here are the rules for the auction:

1)  The first phase of the auction will run from today, Monday,
January 20, 1997 through 1200 AM, MST, February 3, 1997.  

At the end of the first phase of bidding, the top 2 bidders (3 in the
case of Mercenary) will be notified by e-mail to submit a final bid.
They will have until 1200 AM, MST, February 7, 1997 to submit the
final bid.  Winning bidders will be the person who bids highest.  He
will pay $1 more than the next highest bid regardless of what he bid.
For example:

Bidder A bids $17
Bidder B bids $14
Bidder A wins the item and pays $15 ($14+$1)

2)  Bid prices do not include shipping

3)  Minimum Bid increments are $1

4)  Payment will be taken by check or money order in US$ only.
Payment by check will require a 2 week holding period for the check to
clear.  Money orders will be shipped the following day.

5) Bids will be accepted by e-mail only to:
sdollar@goodnet.com

6) Updates to the auction will be posted daily to USENet and the list.

7) Please indicate which copy of the Traveller Boxed Set you are
bidding on.

Thanks,
Stu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:09:33 +0000
From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Subject: Looking for old posts

I am looking for the posts someone did on Imperial and Solomani Fleet 
Organizations last year.

If someone either has them or knows when they were posted, so I can 
dig in the archives for them, please contact me

thanks
kwalsh@ice.net
The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:31:35 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Whither the dreadnought

Tom D. Hiver wriggled his appendages thusly:
> 
> BTW, the vaunted aircraft has probably met its match with directed
> energy weapons-I know this threat and it scares the hell out of me.
> Matching vectors in close range to an Imperial fleet is not a good
> idea-relative speed is life.

Judging by the lack of a fighter's survivability under Traveller's
ship-to-ship combat system (any version previous to T4), a fighter
seems to be pretty useless as a primary offense. The caveat for T4
is just because I'm waiting for the fixes to be published.

Basically, if you see a fighter, it's *dead*, and so is the badass
pilot/gunner your enemy paid big credits to feed, house, and
train. Hi-G missiles, even at TL 10, should be just as smart as any
living pilot for target acquisition purposes without the cost and,
more importantly, *time* for training. One of the great things
about a detailed design system like FF&S is that we were no longer
limited to the arbitrary 6G accel limit. Having this limit apply to
a merchant as an IComp threshold was acceptable. Applying it to an
unmanned missile was not. After all, there are fighter pilots today
who experience 6Gs in aerial combat with no IComp other than their
flight suits and keep fighting. Heck, some have gone past that and
still kept going, *extremely* unpleasant though it is.

Yes, missiles are limited in fuel/power regardless of the TL.
So, what? Lower TL missiles can have the same performance as
a TL15 missile; they'll just be alot bigger. Any design
system worth the money paid for it will allow for this.
For that matter, a TL15 dreadnought with the same capabilities as
a TL12 dreadnought should be and would be smaller than the TL12
version.

IMO, *fighters* are a waste of time and wouldn't exist in any
kind of decent space navy. Unmanned sensors drones and missiles
would be used extensively with DE weapons in a secondary role.
And what would be the meanest ship around? The one that carried
the most missiles, the best point defense, and could take the
most punishment, i.e. a dreadnought. Telling a corsair a system
contains a squadron of fighters will start him/her thinking of
how to avoid them. Saying there's a fast, hostile dreadnought
based in the same system will make *anyone* think long and hard
about even jumping in.  Geez, even the name gives me the creeps!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:07:24 +1300 (NZDT)
From: Idiot/Savant <idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: Lots of complaints.

Unknown:
>To the gent from Louisiana who compained that they get things last. I 
>bet you don't - Europe is still way slower.

pmiller@linkeasy.net:
> I'd argue Canada, at least Oakville, is the last to get products.
> Only T4 product around here is the rulebook, and that didn't arrive
> till October anyway.  I stil have yet to even see Starships,
> Aliens, CSC, or JTAS

 Ha! You've got it good! I'm in New Zealand, and I am yet to see a single
T4 product on the local shelves :( 

- --
Idiot/Savant			idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz
Betray your friends; Crush your enemies; 
Control the world; Drink some coffee

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:09:38 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Re: IG News Letter

>based system. Were we a majority? Who knows! Would it be a good thing to
>change horses in mid stream? I don't know -- *I* would say "yes", but I'm
>just as biased one way as you are the other
>
>Phil McGregor

Yah, but, Phil, you keep forgetting that we are all Solimani and you (and
those few others) are Vilani. :)

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 02:12:05 +1100
From: Scott Levy <bear.garden@c031.aone.net.au>
Subject: Re: Supression Fire

In Phoenix Command each person has a critical distance that is based
indirectly on their Gun Combat skill level. When ever a shot or burst
misses the character by less than this ammount they are forced to make a
morale roll to continue, if they fail they go to cover or prone. Once under
cover the character can attempt a tripple morale role (Three times easier
than a normal roll) to reinitiate action. If they fail they then remain
under cover till they are rallied by another character. The less proficient
the cowering character is the longer it takes to convince him to return to
combat.
I haven't played T4 yet so I don't know how this could be adapted but you
could probably assign a crit distance and a morale to NPC groups as a
whole. I would be in favour of letting PC's make up their own minds about
ducking.
By the way I read the other day that as far as police type shootings go the
most common wounds recieved in gun fights was to the hands. Under the
stress of a gunfight peoples vision shrinks to a tunnel and the focus on
the gun pointed at them and shoot at it. Apparently they also loose their
hearing, I don't just mean from the shots.
Looking forward to any other ideas on how to implement this in T4 as I will
be playing/running some soon.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:59:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: CSC Errata

Hi,

The question has been raised as to who may be collecting CSC errata.  
David Joseph Smart, who did such a supurb job of collecting T4 errata, 
has offered to take on CSC as well.  However, he doesn't want to 
duplicate the work of anyone else.  So...

If you're collecting errata for CSC, please get in touch with David 
(dsmart@flash.net) and let him know, so that the collecting can be 
coordinated properly.  Ultimately, of course, whoever is collecting CSC 
errata should get in touch with David Bullock 
(webmaster@imperiumgames.com) so that Mr. Bullock can put the errata on 
the IG web site.


Thanks,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:21:18 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: IG Web Newsletter/Errata

John Macpherson wrote:
> 
> Note:  I am sending this to IG, the TML, and GDW-Beta because I think it
> is extremely important that we let the new team at IG know that changing
> ship design systems mid-stream will only make matters worse.

John, I agree so much with your points that I copied your post verbatim,
added my support for it, and resent it to IG. The only reason I'm not
using SSDS and QSDS is that I'm *tired* of penning in fixes into a
rules book. I'll await FF&S v2.0's arrival for that.

BTW, has anyone gathering errata for Starships and CSC?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 02:39:02 +1100
From: Peter Hurley <fantomas@connexus.apana.org.au>
Subject: reading matter

Hi peoples,
its going to be a couple of months before I can play T4(the guy who is
going to run has let the fact that his Phd thesis is due in March stop him
from running. How inconsiderate :) >)

So I was wondering, besides reading this list if people could suggest to me
some reading matter to keep me going till then. Especially novels with a
'Traveller' feel about them.

On that note, does anyone know if IG are going to follow the footsteps of
other gaming companies & release genre novels set in the T4 universe?

Thanks in advance for your assisstance

PeteH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:28:43 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Circular PAWS

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Spiral isn't a possibile configuration. But *circular* IS!.
> 
> Also, going by what hass been learned in building particle accelerators
> for *research, it's safe to say that the beam(s) can go around the ship
> several times. It's easiest to have them exit at a tangent to the ring,
> but that's not really a problem.
> 
> Also, with decent amounts of "standby" power, and a good design, you
> can do several interesting things. First, you can maiuntain a
> "circulating" beam. That is, many many bursts, oor even a continous
> stream, circling all the time. And you can have multiple firing ports
> for one ring. So with one ring, you could fire several shots at the
> same time! But they'd have to be in different directions. Still, it's
> useful.
> 
> If the design rules *don't* allow for this, they *should*.

I thought that a circular PAWS was extremely susceptible to battle
damage, i.e. a single hit which disrupts the circle takes out the
weapon. Someone on the TML did post FF&S-based design rules for such
a weapon and I believe it mentions this weakness.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:37:10 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller stuff for sale

Shadowcat wrote:
> 
> the FlGS here in Bloomington Illinois has a fair quantity of old GDW
> traveller stuff.
> they are selling it at Retail price, and do mail orders
>
> I have a list of the old traveller stuff they have
> but I wasnt sure if it would be ok to post it

> if nobody objects I will post further details

Post away!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:50:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Whither QSDS/SSDS?

On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Susan M. Shock wrote:

> The above was in the latest IG website newsletter. I was wondering; does
> this mean that the present design systems, which were done so lovingly and
> under pressure by members of the TML and Beta lists, being scrapped? (The
> above refers to a potential new Traveller hardcover for those who don't get
> the list. See the IG website for details). I hope not, as I really like
> those systems. Yes, they could stand some re-editing and reconciliation, but
> they work and are very good. I wouldn't mind seeing Marc help with the above
> process, but I hope we won't be losing our design systems...

I have a query in to MWM about it.  Hopefully, it just means that Marc 
will be re-editing the system and explanations to make it more usable, 
and more clearly and completely described.  Changes like putting all he 
starships data in one place, rather than strewn over several chapters, 
with some paragraphs seemingly inserted at random places as it is now 
(witness the final paragraph on p 98, which contains vital information 
about travelling in normal space, yet which does not belong under the 
overall heading "Trade Customs" which it has been placed beneath).  

As soon as I find out what was meat by the statement in the web 
newsletter, I'll post it.  Or maybe Marc will see all this and let us 
know. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:17:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Battlecruisers

Right off; this discussion belongs on sci.military.naval, but who am I to
turn down a good argument? :)

On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Andrew Vallance wrote:


[Snip discussion of HMS Hood's demise] 

Many theories anbout this one.  We will probably never know, but many
people (with much more knowledge than I) have gone back and forth over the
why's and what's. 


> >	The U.S. never really built any battlecruisers, aside from the "Large =
> >Cruiser" class of warships, numbering two, including the Guam and also =
> 
> The Iowas themselves are battlecruisers, 10,000Tons bigger
> than the North Carolinas and South Dakotas with the same
> level of protection, same firepower and cruiser speed. A classic
> battlecruiser.

These are classic Battleships.  Fast battleships, but battleships
nonetheless.  See below for qualities fo a battlecruiser.

> >	The ex-Soviet Kirov-class missile cruisers are sometimes called =
> >battlecruisers, but these days the term just doesn't have the same =
> >meaning.  The Kirovs (I think they have been renamed now) are big and =
> >nuclear-powered and pack a tremendous punch in the form of big =
> >surface-to-surface missiles, but protection isn't a key issue in their =
> >design.  'Battlecruiser' in this case sets them off against smaller =
> >cruiser-type ships.
> 
> The Kirovs are battleships, designed to overwhelm other
> ships with their fixed battery (missiles).
> 

Arguable.  Kirovs are "cruisers" because there is simply no "line of
battle" for a battleship to stand in anymore.  If you define battleships
as simply the larges class of ship which uses direct fire (as opposed to
aircraft), they are that.

> >	In Traveller, I see battlecruisers playing much the same role as they =
> >did in WWI.  Protection can be sacrificed for speed, but in this case it =
> 
> I'd agree, but its not protection they'd sacrifice, but firepower.
> Make them bigger, give them the same protection but reduce
> their main armarment.
> 
> >	I hope that this sheds a little light on the question.  Rebuttal is =
> >welcome!

Sorry, everything I've ever seen about battlecruisers says they are
intended to "bridge the gap" between Battleships and Heavy Cruisers.  They
require high speed to match cruiser classes, battleship armaments, but
other factors (such as armor) are less important.

The word "cruiser" imnplies long distance cruising ability, and is usually
associated with ships capable of commerce raiding (which they rarely did)
or as scouts for the battle fleet.  Battlecruisers, as originally
concieved, were meant to be able to sink these cruisers.  In practice, the
battlecruisers were putinto the line of battle with full, properly
armored, battleships.  This was to their detriment at Jutland (one of the
only major multiple battleship engagements of any war).

Really we should be asking on Sci.military.naval where there are some
serious "battleship gearheads".  Everything I've said has been hashed and
rehashed over there.

And since no one has mentioned it in awhile, both the sci.military and the
sci.military.naval (and rec.aviation.military) are excellent sources of
info on new technologies in the military for use with our favorite RPG.

Pete    

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:06:06 -0800
From: David Bullock <dbullock@cris.com>
Subject: IG Web Foolishness (was Re: I'm back... with new books)

>Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:02:11 -0600 (CST)
>From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
>Subject: IG Web Foolishness (was Re: I'm back... with new books)
>
>Does he realize that background colors in table cells isn't part of the
>HTML 3.2 spec?  Methinks eager-beaver artsiness is here running ahead of
>technical (and sensible, and commercially wise) compatability.  I don't

Actually there are solid reasons for the pages being layed out the way they
are.  The starfield background is a crucial part of the look/feel for the
Science Fiction aspect of the site.  For small amounts of text, it's OK to
use white text on a black background.  For "acres" of text like the library
pages or price lists, it is a proven fact that black text on a light
_solid_ background is easier on the eyes.  Reading white/light text on a
black background with stars is definitely a big nono for something like the
year 1112's TNS news.  Neither decision was random at all, but carefully
thought out.

>want the Netscape 3.0 Mac version hogging my CPU -- I use 2.0.  On my
>Amiga, I use Voyager, which also has the problem.  Why would he
>deliberately make life hard on customers, when the trick he's pulling
>isn't even that crucial to the page layout?

Actually per above, it is crucial to readability.

(Hell, if he's so wound up
>about colored boxes, he could write a cgi script to serve two different
>versions of the document.  THAT would be the responsible way to do it....) 

Maybe at some point I will have the time resources to do that, providing
that I can determine which user agents can't handle the codes, and have
have time to rebuild and maintain multiple page layouts.

In the meantime I'm not deaf to the issue, on the new splash screen there
is now a line at the top that says "click here if you have problems" and
will carry you to a plain page going over the problems and possible work
arounds.

Hope this helps,

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:53:41 -0700
From: Sanders <kalin@swlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Auction: Update #1

Here's another stab at a Traveller Auction.

The Auction will run until Feb. 12, 1997.
All bids should be in dollar amounts.
Postage is $2.00 for first item, and .50 cents for each additional item.
Payment should be in either check or money order.
Prompt payment is appreciated.

The following persons bid and did not pay in past auctions, and are not
welcome to bid in this one.

lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
NVDoyle@aol.com
Ted7@world.std.com
Danny_M._Moody@bridge.com
balcom@dayton.net

CLASSIC TRAVELLER:
- ------------------

"Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #1: Soldiers of Fortune" (SJG)
 Circa: 1982. Scale: 15mm. Condition: Mint. (Uncut)
 Bid:

"Pilots Guide To The Caledon Subsector" by J. Andrew Keith 
 Circa: 1984. Pages: 74. Condition: Mint. (Bound Manuscript)
 Bid: $10.00 jimv@empirenet.com

"Imperial Lines #2" (GDW)
 Circa: 1992. Pages: 8. Condition: Mint. (Fanzine)
 Bid:

"Challenge Magazine #25" (GDW)
 Circa: 1986. Pages: 48. Condition: Good.
 Bid: $5.00  beck@mail.all-mail.net

MEGATRAVELLER:
- --------------

"101 Vehicles" (DGP)
 Circa: 1988. Pages: 49. Condition: Good.
 Bid:

"Travellers' Digest #19" (DGP)
 Circa: 1990. Pages: 56. Condition: Good.
 Bid:

"Hard Times" by Charles E. Gannon (GDW)
 Circa: 1991. Pages: 96. Condition: Mint.
 Bid:

"Laboratory Ship - Deckplans" (Seeker)
 Circa: 1989. Scale: 25mm. Condition: Mint. (Shrink Wrapped)
 Bid:

"Subsidized Merchant - Deckplans" (Seeker)
 Circa: 1990. Scale: 25mm. Condition: Mint. (Shrink Wrapped)
 Bid:

TRAVELLER - TNE:
- ----------------

"Clipper Module Weapons Bay" #5819 (RAFM)
 Circa: 199?. Scale: ?. Condition: Mint. (Blister Pack)
 Bid:

"Ship's Boat" #5811 (RAFM)
 Circa: 199?. Scale: ?. Condition: Mint. (Blister Pack)
 Bid:


MISC.:
- ------

"The Praesidium Of Archive" by Jefferson Swycaffer (Avon)
 Circa: 1986. Pages: 196. Condition: Fine. (Traveller Inspired Novel)
 Bid:

"SpaceGamer Magazine #15" (Metagaming)
 Circa: 1978. Pages: 31. Condition: Good. (Article: "Robotics In Traveller")
 Bid:

"Journeys Magazine #2" (GDW)
 Circa: 1992. Pages: 47. Condition: Fine.
 Bid:

"Sniper! - Special Forces" (SPI)
 Circa: 1992. Pages: Folio. Condition: Good. (Unpunched)

- -----

That's it for the present. I will post updates every day or so.

Ad Astra,
Paul

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:53:04 -0600
From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Subject: Re: reading matter

Peter Hurley <fantomas@connexus.apana.org.au> wrote:
>
> So I was wondering, besides reading this list if people could
> suggest to me some reading matter to keep me going till then.
> Especially novels with a 'Traveller' feel about them. 

I've reprinted what could be termed a recommended reading list from 
Classic Traveller. Many of the works listed influenced the Traveller 
universe.

You can find the reprint at:

"http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/traveller/"

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@NASCRAG.ORG

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 97 17:52 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: A new weapon for people - an idea

In-Reply-To: <32E7D137.622D@hotstar.net>

<< Seriously though, the US Army has  laser rifle now. It can only be 
used for blinding attacks, but the neat thing is the only defence is to 
close your eyes and keep them closed. It can rapidly cycle through 
various freqs to counter polarized lenses. >>

According to Jane's, the RN had similar devices fitted to ships during 
the Falklands War.

   ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #886
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 887



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: reading matter
Re: Battlecruisers
Re: possible T4 errata?
Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEB NEWSLETTER
Re: Whither the dreadnought, fighter dudes and g load effects
Traveller Starship Combat Card Game?
Module Names
Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEB NEWSLETTER
Talking about BCs, BBs, and warships in general
Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis,and Hivers
Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEB NEWSLETTER
Re: Vilani cannablism
Re: Battleships, Battlecruisers and Dreadnaughts
Re: Module Names

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:07:36 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: reading matter

At 02:39 AM 1/27/97 +1100, PeteH wrote:

>Hi peoples,
>its going to be a couple of months before I can play T4(the guy who is
>going to run has let the fact that his Phd thesis is due in March stop him
>from running. How inconsiderate :) >)

That's what my players said about my getting cancer.. darn rude on my part,
if I do say so my self.  (I pointed out it was a ploy to allow me time to
sit around and write adventures...)

>So I was wondering, besides reading this list if people could suggest to me
>some reading matter to keep me going till then. Especially novels with a
>'Traveller' feel about them.

"Honor Harrington" series, -David Weber.  Some of the best military SF
written since Starship Troopers.  Even my wife, who dislikes militaristic
stuff, loves these.

The works of Bruce Sterling.  Best known as a cyberpunk, his
Shaper/Mechanist universe has some interesting ideas for a Traveller GM.

"Hyperion", -Dan Simmons.  The best SF novel of the 1980s, IMHO.  There are
two sequels, but they drop off in quality.

"Legacy of Herort" and "Beowulf's Children", -Niven, Pournelle, and Barnes.
Wonderful novels set on a newly colonized world.. today's lesson is don't
mess with the ecology.

Spider Robinson's "Callahan's Place" stories.  Great fun, and your bar
encounters will never be the same.

"Flandry" series, -Poul Anderson.  Multiple stories of the ever-resourceful
agent of the Terran Empire.

"A Fire Upon the Deep", -Vernor Vinge.  This book is beyond description.
I'm on my second reading, and I'm still in awe.

"Worldwar!" series, -Harry Turtledove.  what if the aliens invadedduring
WWII?  three books so far, and it's getting better.

"Retief" series, -Keith Laumer.  some of the best, funniest SF ever.

"Midshipman's Hope", -David Feintuch.  First of a seies, haven't read the
rest yet, about a very young officer.  Age of Sail in space.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:11:38 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Battlecruisers

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> And since no one has mentioned it in awhile, both the sci.military and the
> sci.military.naval (and rec.aviation.military) are excellent sources of
> info on new technologies in the military for use with our favorite RPG.
> 
> Pete


The reason I brought this battleships thingy up here was to get the
"feel" of TMLers for this subject.  How are ships employed in the Third
Imperium?  Is WWI/WWII the precedent or should we be looking to our
wargames to give the answer.  

To me all games are based on assumptions.  Basing conflict and combat
sytems to model a historical  event is as likely as not.  The only thing
we really know from history is that it probably won't look like we are
depicting it.  And we won't be around to care(probably.)

So let's have fun!

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:49:46 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Re: possible T4 errata?

At 11:50 pm 01/25/97 -0500, Christopher Weuve said:
>David Golden said:
>> AFAIK, it's possible for a graduate of one  academy to choose to 
>> be commissioned into a different service, although only a few each year 
>> do so. I've worked with Naval Academy guys who decided they didn't want 
>> to go to sea or some such, and chose Air Force commissions. 
>
>It's even possible to graduate from an academy and end up in the _enlisted_ 
>ranks, or so I was told by the Zoomies with whom I went to grad school.  I 
>believe you have to screw up fairly badly for them not to comission you, but 
>it's happened.

	Very true. I had a friend married to a zoomie who'd wound up serving as an
Airman First Class instead of a Lieutenant. It's also possible for ROTC
students who wash out of the program for one reason or another to be called
to active duty as an enlisted.
- -- Dave Golden                         PGP Public Key available --
   goldendj@usa.net   http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:49:59 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEB NEWSLETTER

At 07:41 pm 01/26/97 +1100, Phillip McGregor said:

>> 	Perhaps the one thing that the buying public did _not_ 
>> universally despise about the Starships book was the design system.  What
>
>> we couldn't stand were the ships that Don Perrin put into the book that 
>> were not compatible with the design system, and the totally useless and 
>> amateurish deckplans.
>
>Uh, well, I wouldn't agree *entirely* with this. The "stock" ships from the
>T4 Main Rulebook cannot be designed with QSDS as presented in the Main
>Rulebook. So a redesign of the ships with whatever system they *do* decide
>to use is probably a must.

	I think that was his point... the "stock" ships that were in both the
basic rulebook AND Starships were created off-the-cuff, without any
reference whatsoever to the QSDS and SSDS rules (which Don had at the time).
- -- Dave Golden                         PGP Public Key available --
   goldendj@usa.net   http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:41:53 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Whither the dreadnought, fighter dudes and g load effects

David Smart wrote:
> 
> Tom D. Hiver wriggled his appendages thusly:

> Judging by the lack of a fighter's survivability under Traveller's
> ship-to-ship combat system (any version previous to T4), a fighter
> seems to be pretty useless as a primary offense. The caveat for T4
> is just because I'm waiting for the fixes to be published.


The last assignement anyone wants in my campaign is the  coveted
"fighter jock."  Read missile pilot.  Fighters exist to strike and
screen, while the cruisers and tougher do the heavy fighting. Ships go
through magazines of missiles like there is no tomorrow. Which there
won't be.

BTW, Lucan is still looking for good PC's willing to die for the
Imperium!

 After all, there are fighter pilots today
> who experience 6Gs in aerial combat with no IComp other than their
> flight suits and keep fighting. Heck, some have gone past that and
> still kept going, *extremely* unpleasant though it is.



Speaking from a postion of higher than normal g user, here is a quick
rundown of g tolerance:(g suit give 1 - 1 1/2 extra g to all)

g LOAD      CUTE LITTLE EFFECTS

- -1.5 - 3.0  Normal human resting g tolerance (3 g is uncomfortable, -1.5
unbearable)

3.0-4.5  Tough, muscular human resting tolerance; normal human needs to
start trained anti-g straining maneuver

4.5-7.0  Tough human needs to strain, normal human reaches straining g
tolerance and blacks out due to gloc; 
 
7.0-9.0  Incredibly difficult; tough human requires trained straining
technique; bomber pukes like me do "funky chicken"(estimated, not
verified), geasels all over legs and butt and lower body

9.0-12.0  Tough human does "funky chicken." Bigtime geasels(lower
capillaries burst into skin)  Need "Atlantis Warrior" full body liquid g
suit to attempt remaining concious.  Note:I saw a dude in this stuff
pulling 9g unstrained!  May have side undesirable effects, like ripping
heart valves and such. 

Hope folks get some use out of this.  Don't try to stand up under higher
than 3-4g.  You may permanently break something.

ghiver

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:21:45 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Traveller Starship Combat Card Game?

TML fellers,

This is an idea I came up with last night, based on the address MM sent
his last message to the list from.  (cardsharks@aol.com)

T4 is coming out with several new products over the next few months. 
People seem to be awaiting them eagerly, especially with anticipation of
increased quality.  

As the starship building and combat system matures, supplements will
probably come along detailing Imperial and other forces.  In the past,
these have been in a book, such as Fighting Ships.  What if in addition
to the book, a card set was put out.  Basically something like the
"Magic" type games floating around lately?  

The edge is that these cards would not only be playable as a relatively
simple card game, but would ALSO have the SSDS stats for use as a
supplement to the Traveller RPG.  As such they could be used in multiple
ways, and possibly draw new players in.  

This is just an idea, but I would like to see the interest in it.   Has
this been brought up before?

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:05:26 -0600
From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Subject: Module Names

Dear Everyone,

Brian Chase, Kevin Chase, James Gordon, Carole Bland and I have been 
kicking around potential titles for the GEN CON program. I just 
finished speaking with Brian on the telephone, and we agreed to 
solicit ideas from everyone.


Suggestions are welcome from non-lumps. (And, there aren't any
reading this message! ;-) The title should be something that grabs
the readers attention and makes 'em want to play.


Please post suggestions to the NJML.

This year's event proposals are due January 31, 1997. That's five
whole days from now! So, think fast. :-)


Here's the (potential) description for the event:

=====
Trouble is brewing in the North. The locals are beset by Ice
Daemons. Can you help the good King Andrew defeat them? Puzzles,
role-playing, and humor presented by NASCRAG. Come join the fun!
=====

The event description may be up to 160 characters long.


The title may be 30 characters maximum, so some of the stuff we've 
been kicking around is too long. Oh, well.


Brian Chase suggested:

 Terror on the Ice


Carole Bland suggested:

 Ice Scream Social
 Snow Job
 Hail Freezes Over
 Ice, Thrice
 Aurora
 Artic Light   
 Artic Blast
 Snow Bind


David Blustein suggested:

 The Ice Daemon Cometh, Or
 Mr. Wizard Meets a Blizzard.

 Storm Over Bjarmaland, Or
 Did you bring an umbrella? I think it's raining fish.

 Leukfisk the Conquerer, Or
 Ten easy ways to prepare Jellied Herring.

 All the King's Men, Or
 Which Way to the Northern Front, Or
 You want us to do *what*?

 Frosty the Ice Daemon, Or
 Ten easy ways to melt a snowman.

 Ice King, Or
 Ten easy ways to decorate a cake.

 Misfit Troopers, Or
 They're expendable, let's send *them*!

 Ice War, Or
 Ten easy ways to get frostbite.

 Deep Freeze I, Or
 A woman behind every tree!

 Arctic Command, Or
 What it really means to get the cold shoulder.

 Winter Warriors, Or
 Six blind mice learn to build an igloo.

 Ice Legion, Or
 Become one of the Frozen Chosen.

 The Polar Brigade, Or
 How much for that teddy in the window?


James Gordon suggested:

 Hey Brother, Can You Spare a Herring?

 Cool Hand Leukfisk


Please post suggestions to the NJML before the evening of Wednesday,
January 29, 1997.

Cheers,
     David

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:40:18 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis

At 08:15 AM 1/26/97 +0000, you wrote:
<snip>
>For example, at 5 ls, you have ship A sending data to ship B, which has
>to know "exactly" how long it took for the data to cross the gap, as
>that's one of the parameters in the calculations. 
>
>If it's "exactly" 5 seconds, then each ship "combines" the data it
>receives directly with the data received 5 seconds later from the other
>ship. The combining involves various things like trig and other messy
>stuff. But it all boils down to "A saw X1 from direction Y1 at time Z1, B
>saw X2 from Y2 at Z2". You combine the info and triangulate. 
>
>So at 5 ls, you have a "data lag" of the 5 seconds it takes the signal
>to cross the distance *plus* the processing time. 
>
>And since the distance *will* vary, even if only by a little bit, that
>changes the point in the your datastream that you are comparing with
>the datastream from the other ship.
>
><snip>

>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

Could we presume that vessels operating together would have some type of
synchronized timekeeping, such as an atomic clock, in each ship, with each
message between ships being time & velocity stamped so that each receiver
could adjust the data for integration to local data? 

We should also assume a really good (and closely gaurded) encryption on the
interchanges, or enemy intercepts would be right dangerous.

Adventure possiblity: trying to obtain a given unit's encryption code or
seeking to recover said code.

Garry

  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:54:09 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEB NEWSLETTER

At 08:41 AM 1/26/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> <snip>
>
>And, as far as I can tell, the QSDS/SSDS systems are *not* universally
>loved by those people, like myself, who thought FFS stank to high heaven as
>an overly (and needlessly) complex and basically useless system. It taints
>QSDS/SSDS simply by virtue of being the basis for them. I (and a
>significant number of others) would much preferred to have had a High Guard
>based system. Were we a majority? Who knows! Would it be a good thing to
>change horses in mid stream? I don't know -- *I* would say "yes", but I'm
>just as biased one way as you are the other
>
>Phil McGregor
>

I liked both HG and FF&S; instead of another system, I would like to see a
refinement of what we have. Perhaps after the errata and presentation
problems in SSDS & QSDS are fixed and the revised FF&S (naval architects
handbook?) are out, a short form design sequence that boils the QSDS down
further into a more HG format can be developed. 

Players and refs are going to have one of several approaches to ships:

1) Just gimme the ship and let's get on with the game.

2) That's a great ship, but I want to (add/change) <whatever>, can I do it?

3) I want to make my own ship, where is the catalog of parts?

4) I want to make my own ship, where is the drafting table?

We need to take the material we have and provide an integrated methodology
for each of the approaches, not keep redoing it in search of a 'perfect' system.

Systems are only perfect as long as the sales rep is within shotgun range.

Garry

  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 97 14:33:48 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Talking about BCs, BBs, and warships in general

On 01/26/97 at 11:12 PM,  Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
said:

> The Iowas themselves are battlecruisers, 10,000Tons bigger
> than the North Carolinas and South Dakotas with the same
> level of protection, same firepower and cruiser speed. A classic
> battlecruiser.

Andrew,

I don't think this is worth much debate, but the Iowa class ships were true
Battleships, not Battlecruisers.  They certainly were as fast as many
previously built cruisers, but they did not sacrifice armor protection to
gain that speed.  They gained their speed with larger engines, a longer
hull, and lower weight/strength armor than previous BBs. They still sported
a very thick armor belt and heavily armored decks and superstructure. 
Cruisers just didn't have this sort of protection...and battlecruisers were
really just cruisers built to the same displacement and carriing the same
weapons as BBs.

Look at the Bismark:  41,000 ton displacement, 30+ knots speed, 8 15-in
guns, massive hardened steel armor belt...she certainly was a battleship! 
Now look at the Iowa:  45,000 ton displacement, 30+ knots speed, 9 16-in
guns, massive STS steel armor belt (Special Treatment Steel was introduced
during the war and has up to 30% more strength/inch as hardened
steel)...also a true battleship!

If the US had built BCs during the 42-45 period they likely would have been
40+ knot ships.  They also wouldn't have had the thick armor belt at the
waterline that the Iowas sported.  You can't compare Iowa class to the
North Carolina class and say just because the Iowa was faster it wasn't a
BB....*every* class of ship was getting faster, and every class of ship was
getting better armored too!  They weren't getting up-gunned because the
technology had maxed out at 16 to 18-in guns.

The distinguishing feature between BBs and BCs is really armor
protection...the armor belt in particular.  BCs sacrificed that protection
to shed mass, thus to gain speed.  Other than that BBs and BC were *about*
the same size and mounted about the same
weaponery.  OTOH, it is true that BCs tended to be longer than BBs, in fact
they had about the same length to beam ratio as cruisers. (That's another
reason to call them battleship sized cruisers.)

An interesting thing to me has to do with the Length to Beam (width) ratio
of various classes of ships.  Historically, ships have been growing longer
and longer, SOLs of the 18th century were about 3x1, the DNs of WWI were
around 6x1, WWII BBs were up to 7 or 8x1, and modern carriers are 9x1, 10x1
or more.  Simply increasing this ratio has tended to increased ship
displacement because the ship's beam really haven't decreased.  The
increases in length have come about because, all things being equal, in
water longer means faster. Smaller classes of ships usually have a ratio
somewhat bigger than larger contemporary ships.

However, what a ship is *called* isn't really worth an argument.  

What I'm concerned with is finding a way to bring the 1880-1920 ship combat
flavor to Traveller.  I'd *prefer* a model closer to 18th century "age of
sail", but I don't think we can get that.  What I don't want is an 1940+,
"age of airpower" flavor.

We need ships of about the same speed. IMO: Six to one from slowest to
fastest is acceptable, but twenty to one isn't.

We need armor to play a bigger role in ship design.  IMO:  Can the Meson
guns, and require weapons that penetrate thick armor hides. 

We need to be more aware of mass.  IMO:  The *mass* of armor should play a
dominate role in ship acceleration.  Certainly we can base most of that on
an abstract mass based on displacement, but armor should be calculated
seperately and needs to be specific not abstracted.

We need to match our guns to our armor.  IMO:  Weapons and armor design
systems need to be rationalized somehow so they work together better.



Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:11:06 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis,and Hivers

Garry Ward wrote:
> 
> At 08:15 AM 1/26/97 +0000, you wrote:
> <snip>
> >For example, at 5 ls, you have ship A sending data to ship B, which has
> >to know "exactly" how long it took for the data to cross the gap, as
> >that's one of the parameters in the calculations.
> >
> >If it's "exactly" 5 seconds, then each ship "combines" the data it
> >receives directly with the data received 5 seconds later from the other
> >ship. The combining involves various things like trig and other messy
> >stuff. But it all boils down to "A saw X1 from direction Y1 at time Z1, B
> >saw X2 from Y2 at Z2". You combine the info and triangulate.
> >
> >So at 5 ls, you have a "data lag" of the 5 seconds it takes the signal
> >to cross the distance *plus* the processing time.
> >
> >And since the distance *will* vary, even if only by a little bit, that
> >changes the point in the your datastream that you are comparing with
> >the datastream from the other ship.
> >
> ><snip>
> 
> >--
> >Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> > shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> >leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> >
> 
> Could we presume that vessels operating together would have some type of
> synchronized timekeeping, such as an atomic clock, in each ship, with each
> message between ships being time & velocity stamped so that each receiver
> could adjust the data for integration to local data?
> 
> We should also assume a really good (and closely gaurded) encryption on the
> interchanges, or enemy intercepts would be right dangerous.
> 
> Adventure possiblity: trying to obtain a given unit's encryption code or
> seeking to recover said code.
> 
> Garry


Before Imperial Fleets jump they spend a good bit of time syncronizing
jump vectors.  Timing is essential.  I still think useful data could be
passed and used for target allocation and sensor applications.  The
rewards are too great to write it off as "unfeasible."

Addmitedly, I only know a bit about sensor fusion, I just drive 'em not
build 'em.  How accurate could a system like this be?  

If two ships in close proximity(100 km for example) use ap syth, how far
out do you go?  Maybe packets of ships use the system, then simply relay
their findings to the rest of the fleet for correlation.  That way you
overcome c-lag.

Theories, thoughts, suggestions or anti-six limbed prejudice?

_\/_
 /\

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:22:59 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: IMPERIUM GAMES WEB NEWSLETTER

Phillip McGregor writes:

>And, as far as I can tell, the QSDS/SSDS systems are *not* universally
>loved by those people, like myself, who thought FFS stank to high heaven as
>an overly (and needlessly) complex and basically useless system. It taints
>QSDS/SSDS simply by virtue of being the basis for them. I (and a
>significant number of others) would much preferred to have had a High Guard
>based system. Were we a majority? Who knows! Would it be a good thing to
>change horses in mid stream? I don't know -- *I* would say "yes", but I'm
>just as biased one way as you are the other.

   I prefer to think that Marc Miller has in mind some minor adjustments
in layout--the final numbers will still come out the same.  The plain
fact is that dumping the current system for a completely new one would
make IG the laughing stock of the RPG industry.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:38:34 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Subject: Re: Vilani cannablism

Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:54:51 +1300, Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>;
>When the first Europeans arrived in the late 18th
>and early 19th Centuries, one of the major things
>they noticed was the extremely poor diet of the
>Maori. NZ had only one large animal suitable as a
>major protein source (the Moa), which had been
>hunted to extinction by the Maori about 100-200
>years earlier. The only other sources of protein
>were a small rat, a small (and compartively rare)
>dog (neither native to NZ), various birds (none
>larger than a small parot) and some poorly
>exploited coastal resources (The Maori lost their
>sea going abilities with a few generations of the
>migration).

First of all, the animals listed (and you left out
lizards and insects, both of which are quite poplar
in some cultures) are perfectly good sources
of protein.  Second, if protein was that big
a deal, why didn't they find a way to exploit
coastal resources (other cultures don't have
any problem)?  Lastly, it for many cultures
people would exist indefinately without meat
and there are cultures that have given it
up _voluntarily_.

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1997 23:36:06 -0000
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzum@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Battleships, Battlecruisers and Dreadnaughts

From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@wizard.net>

>What does this have to do with Traveller?  I think it serves as a bit of a 
>lesson.  Traveller players have always been better than the designers of some 
>other games (e.g., _Starfire_), about simply running WW2 through the science 
>fiction converter to get space combat.  It's always good to analyze what the 
>ship is supposed to do and rate it that way than simply use an historical 
>system.  Such systems become obsolete with time.
>
>--Chris Weuve

This is a very good point.

When designing a naval force, rollplay the naval high command.  What is the
political situation and how does it effect the military situation.  Is a new
ship needed to counter a new problem?  Is a new ship needed to give an
advantage over a particullar opponent?  What is the current or future military
doctrine?

Design the ship for the current or possible future needs.  Clasification is
great for comparison with another force.  Instead of building a battleship or
battlecruiser, build a ship with a powerful meson spinal mount and high jump
capability.  Afterwards you can classify you ship as a battlecruiser, strike
cruiser or whatever.  Your opponent will probably call it something else
entirely. ;>

Each ship should have a purpose ... or multi-purpose.  A balance navy will
probably have ship capable of patroling shiping lanes, ships for anti-piracy,
main line ships designed to survive heavy combat, strike ships designed for the
purpose of carrying the war to the enemy, and many types.

I have enjoyed reading these posts.  I knew this was a subject that would
produce as many diffent ideas as there are people interested.

PZ


- ---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:47:06 -0600
From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Subject: Re: Module Names

On 26 Jan 97 at 21:05, David Blustein <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG> wrote:

> Dear Everyone,
> 
> Brian Chase, Kevin Chase, James Gordon, Carole Bland and I have been 
> kicking around ...

[lots of goofy stuff snipped]


Sorry! Posted this to the wrong list. :-(

Please ignore the original post.

So much for trying to do two things at once! :-)


Of course, if you do have any ideas, you can post them to me directly 
if you want to do so. ;-)


Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@NASCRAG.ORG

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #887
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 27 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 888



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller Starship Combat Card Game?
Re: Traveller stuff for sale
Re: IG Web Newsletter/Errata
Re: Traveller Starship Combat Card Game?
Re: Battlecruisers
Re: Traveller Starship Combat Card Game?
Re: Battleships, Battlecruisers and Dreadnaughts
Bye Bye
Re:  Combat agility & missiles in T4
a
Re: Tech Level
Catching Up!
G-suits
Re: Starship design
Re: Tech Level
Re: Traveller Starship Combat Card Game?
Rem_700.HTM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1997 23:45:32 -0000
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzum@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Starship Combat Card Game?

From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>

>TML fellers,
>
>This is an idea I came up with last night, based on the address MM sent
>his last message to the list from.  (cardsharks@aol.com)
>
>T4 is coming out with several new products over the next few months. 
>People seem to be awaiting them eagerly, especially with anticipation of
>increased quality.  
>
>As the starship building and combat system matures, supplements will
>probably come along detailing Imperial and other forces.  In the past,
>these have been in a book, such as Fighting Ships.  What if in addition
>to the book, a card set was put out.  Basically something like the
>"Magic" type games floating around lately?  
>
>The edge is that these cards would not only be playable as a relatively
>simple card game, but would ALSO have the SSDS stats for use as a
>supplement to the Traveller RPG.  As such they could be used in multiple
>ways, and possibly draw new players in.  
>
>This is just an idea, but I would like to see the interest in it.   Has
>this been brought up before?
>
>Tom
>

This is a great idea!  I would be very interested in this.  I might make
something like this now for my current game.

PZ


- ---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:40:31 +0000
From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller stuff for sale

- --Message-Boundary-22802
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Here is the list
The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html
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   ---- File information -----------
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     Date:  23 Jan 1997, 19:21
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- --Message-Boundary-22802--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:19:59 -0600
From: "sinbad@dfw.net" <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: IG Web Newsletter/Errata

At 09:21 AM 1/26/97 -0800, David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
 wrote:
>John Macpherson wrote:
>> 
>> Note:  I am sending this to IG, the TML, and GDW-Beta because I think it
>> is extremely important that we let the new team at IG know that changing
>> ship design systems mid-stream will only make matters worse.
>
>John, I agree so much with your points that I copied your post verbatim,
>added my support for it, and resent it to IG. The only reason I'm not
>using SSDS and QSDS is that I'm *tired* of penning in fixes into a
>rules book. I'll await FF&S v2.0's arrival for that.
>
>BTW, has anyone gathering errata for Starships and CSC?
>

David,

I have been trying to gather up the errata for CSC and VDS. I have sent
several messages to Greg asking for clarifications that I have found so far.

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:32:55 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Starship Combat Card Game?

Tom Lane wrote:
> As the starship building and combat system matures, supplements will
> probably come along detailing Imperial and other forces.  In the past,
> these have been in a book, such as Fighting Ships.  What if in addition
> to the book, a card set was put out.  Basically something like the
> "Magic" type games floating around lately?
> 
> The edge is that these cards would not only be playable as a relatively
> simple card game, but would ALSO have the SSDS stats for use as a
> supplement to the Traveller RPG.  As such they could be used in multiple
> ways, and possibly draw new players in.

Hey, I like this! Back when I was using High Guard, I wrote ship
stats on 3x5 cards for reference during combat, making it easier and
faster to run. The cards described above, *if done properly*, could be
used in such a role, as well as trying to tap into the card-trading
market.

IMO, these cards should include detailed Travelleresque external views
of the ship being described on one side with the SSDS stats on the
other.
What I'd like to see is a side view with fore and aft views. Don't know
if it's cost effective, though.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:15:15 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Battlecruisers

Tom Lane wrote:
> The reason I brought this battleships thingy up here was to get the
> "feel" of TMLers for this subject.  How are ships employed in the Third
> Imperium?  Is WWI/WWII the precedent or should we be looking to our
> wargames to give the answer.
> 
> To me all games are based on assumptions.  Basing conflict and combat
> sytems to model a historical  event is as likely as not.  The only thing
> we really know from history is that it probably won't look like we are
> depicting it.  And we won't be around to care(probably.)

From what I've gleaned from the previous posts on DNs, BBs, and
cruisers, look to the available technology, then the environment
the tech is going to be used in. For example, PAWS will lead, IMO,
to capital ships with a great deal of redundancy among surface
installations, heavy armor, and power dedicated to weaponry,
resulting in relatively slow ships and naval slug fests.
Meson weapons will lead to light armor and power dedicated to
screens, resulting in faster ships and an increased change of
hi-g, passing engagements. Hull shape would be whatever gives
the best chance of survival in the most commonly expected types
of engagement.

Comments?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:14:50 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Starship Combat Card Game?

David Smart wrote:


>> Tom Lane wrote:

>> Hey, I like this! Back when I was using High Guard, I wrote ship
>> stats on 3x5 cards for reference during combat, making it easier and
>> faster to run. The cards described above, *if done properly*, could b
>> used in such a role, as well as trying to tap into the card-trading
>> market.

 
> IMO, these cards should include detailed Travelleresque external views
> of the ship being described on one side with the SSDS stats on the
> other.
> What I'd like to see is a side view with fore and aft views. Don't know
> if it's cost effective, though.


Big secret Dave, I have been doing superb renders of Traveller starships
for a long time.  I've been working loosly with DGP.  The art, if
desired by someone willing to produce it, is not a problem.  It is done
by me, and I consider it nearly BAB5 quality. 

I specifically render in a painting-like manner, because of various
constraints. I love Traveller and want to see it triumph. This is my
motivation, but I want to do this RIGHT.  Check out Dave Golden's page
under Naryanganjo Corridor to see what I mean.  That was my first good
render several months ago. 

I don't do Foss.  Just Traveller.  THAT is why I need to know the way
starship combat is going to work

- -BECAUSE I HAVE TO DEPICT IT.

Hope this brings some light to T player eyes!

hiverillustrator

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:17:14 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Battleships, Battlecruisers and Dreadnaughts

Paul Zumstein wrote:
> 

> I have enjoyed reading these posts.  I knew this was a subject that would
> produce as many diffent ideas as there are people interested.
> 
> PZ

I agree the future will not mimic the past, particularly not in
space(WWII example.)  The problem is that we don't want to use a system
that doesn't represent reality to any degree.  (i.e. The question does
it give a bunch of lightly armed ships advantage over bigger, better
armed ones due to numbers?  Is this reality?)

What is the precedence or justification for this, other than "that's
what the game system says happens?  These are difficult questions, and
it comes down to how do you want to establish your universe?  The
fundamental assumptions of the game come from this basic question.

Seeing as the T4 book, to my knowledge, isn't very wieldy for the design
of very large high-tech ships, T4 has all the space in the world to
evolve.  I'm not even sure Sylea has any truly big ships to test this
out...yet.

But they will come, and all of those glorious battles throughout our
shared history will get to be fought.  We need to have an idea of the
governing ground rules behind these fleet engagements-who is fighting
and with what?  What is the "Dreadnought" that shakes the navies of the
46th century?

Again-we decide, but our decisions have tremendous ramifications.

As a side note, I DO NOT want to rengineer systems or whatever.  I just
want it to work with as little effort as possible, producing results I
can say "Yeah, It probably would work that way."

canonhiver

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:38:54 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: Bye Bye

Sorry to leave, folks.  Duty calls.  Catch you in a year or so.
Tom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 97 23:32:55 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re:  Combat agility & missiles in T4

JayStr <jaystr@best.com> wrote:
> I've given up trying to figure out who is doing what. For what it's
> worth: Wildstar, Joe Walsh, Dave Golden -- if you guys read this along
> with everybody else en masse, I'd especially value your input.

OK, here's my two cents worth.  Note that this is NOT an Official Answer,
just my point of view at the current time.

> First: Are we going to have a CHOICE between an advanced design/combat
> system (the two drive each other) that treats a missile launcher as
> basically just another weapon [...] and treating these swarms of missiles
> as individual munitions?

From a practical point of view, there is (currently) only one official T4
space combat system.  That's the basic one that's included in the T4
rulebook.  

There is an additional, un-official (but IMHO, highly recommended) system
that's available from my Web site http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/rpsc/

This system is aimed mainly at small battles between a limited number of
ships, and treats missiles in volleys (a group of identical missiles, all
fired from the same ship at the same time, targetted at the same enemy ship)


When other official combat systems are available, and what options
they will offer, is something I can't speculate on with any certainty.
For purposes of designing NAH, I think most of the members of the Beta
list are envisioning something like the T:TNE BL+BR system, with revisions
and extensions.


> As you can likely tell, the whole issue of mismatching numbers of
> missile tubes versus the number of missiles the MFD will control versus
> maintaining your target locks during flight and remembering which ship
> launched 'em is still driving me up the wall.

In RPCS, it's pretty simple: the number of tubes (launchers) you've got is
the limit on the size of a volley.  For purposes of saturating the defense,
you want to make the volleys as large as possible (launch enough missiles,
and the target won't have enough lasers to shoot them all down).

The maximum number of missiles you can have in flight is limited by the MFDs
available.  Ideally, this limit should be large enough that you can fire
your maximum volley each turn and controll all of the missiles for their
entire flight duration.  Frequently, that ideal won't be attainable (and,
similarly, a present-day US Navy Aegis missile cruiser with a VLS launcher
can launch more missiles at once than it can provide terminal guidance to).

> That might be nice. What kind of missiles were we
> shooting at each other all those years in CT and MT?)
> 

The assumption as that CT/MT/T;TNE missiles were 'controlled' (under control
of the firing ship up to the point of impact) unless otherwise specified.

> Second -- and heretofore totally unaddressed anywhere I've looked -- To
> Be Agile Or Not To Be Agile in T4? And if so, by what means? Thrust to
> weight? Thrust to displacement? And with what qualifiers?

I think other people have this pretty well covered, but the basics are that
a ship's ability to Be Elsewhere when it's being shot at have to do mainly
with it's ability to spin around it's axes.  THIS in turn is inversely
related to the ship's size (overall length, actually), so that larger ships
are inherently slower; and the ship's G-compensation, so that ships with
better G-compensation can afford to turn more quickly.

A ship designed with QSDS or SSDS today will be in reasonable shape as far
as this type of agility goes; and on par with most other ships of the same
displacement and configuration.



> But if whoever is writing up the advanced starship combat system
> suddenly decides to include combat agility as an expression of weight
> versus excess thrust (or power output, as in MegaTraveller), all your
> QSDS and SSDS ships suddenly turn into crippled pigs. That is not fine.

This is not going to happen.  In QSDS/SSDS/NAH, a ship that's rated at 5G
DOES actually make 5G in combat (as opposed to High Guard, where a ship that
was rated at 5G Agility-0 actually couldn't move when in combat).

> Plus you fall into the ancient hideous trap of having to refigure
> everything else to figure your maneuver drive because it apparently
> doesn't produce enough thrust to push itself, then you need a bigger
> power plant because the maneuver drive requires more power, then a
> bigger maneuver drive because the bigger power plant weighs more...

This was a major pain in MT.  I think we've got a reasonable way to avoid it
in NAH.  MOST starships will mass less than 15 metric tons per displacement
ton; if so, the default calculations will work just fine.  IF (for example,
due to very thick armor) you exceed this amount, then you'll need to go back
and re-figure the maneuver rating.

In MT, the power plant was a major source of mass in the ship's design; in
T4, it won't be such an important component of the ship's overall mass.
This will also help reduce the number of times you have to iterate the
design.

I used to use a spreadsheet for designing MT ships; it was set up so I
entered the desired performance, and pressed the 'recalc' key until the
design either diverged (quickly inflating to infinite volume), or converged
on a workable maneuver drive and power plant.  I recall having to hit it 15
or 20 times for most ships; if I'd had to do that by hand, I'm sure I would
have gone mad.

I certainly don't want to have to do something like that with NAH.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:39:36 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: a

unsubscribe traveller trlane@texas.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:16:22 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Tech Level

Bruce Johnson wrote:
 
>         Hrmmm...my Dixie Gunworks muzzle loader catalog has 'em right here
> on page 235.  Hornady Sabots with bullets, .50 Cal. ones with a .44 240 gr
> hollowpoint XTP jacketed bullet, $7.95 for a box of 50. These are designed
> to use jacketed pistol rounds with slow twist roundball rifles. They work
> better with faster twist ones, and in fact there are muzzleloaders
> designed to use them.

   Actually I was just using sabots as an example.  I could have also
said an afterburning jet engine on a WWI vintage biplane or a Roman
Centurian carrying a flintlock musket.

   For sake of argument, sabots are something that doesn't exist for
firearms in 1855.  Had someone actually developed one (and I would still
argue that you are trying to put 20th century thoughts into a 19th
century head), their expense would have kept them from being massed
produced.
 
>         Always remember that technical advances in a field, such as
> material science does NOT necessarily translate into advances in all the
> fields that could use such advances. 

   Agreed, otherwise the Chinese would now rule the world, having
developed firearms a hundred years or more before everyone else even had
gunpowder.  My point is that the development of a TL 14 vac suit isn't
possible until all the other things that go into it have been
developed.  No A-bomb without advances in explosives technology, no
light bulb without advances in the understanding of how electricity
works.  Saying, "well the Second Imperium just happen to be that
advanced in this one area" doesn't wash with me.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 97 23:55:30 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Catching Up!

I just wanted to drop everyone a quick note: I'm back from my latest trip,
(California was nice, and Oregon was beautiful) and am currently working
my way through the many excellent submissions to the starship design contest. 

REMINDER: If you intend to enter the starship design contest, send your
design to Joe Walsh (ransom@iconnect.net) by the 31st!

If there are urgent Traveller Questions (particularly those that pertain to
ship design), or urgent administrative matters for the Beta list, e-mail me
at wildstar@qrc.com and indicate that it's urgent in the title of your
message (otherwise, it'll go into the 'pile' and get answered sometime next
month).  I will read and answer all my e-mail, but it may take a while ...


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:40:46 -0500 (EST)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: G-suits

Tom said:
>9.0-12.0  Tough human does "funky chicken." Bigtime geasels(lower
>capillaries burst into skin)  Need "Atlantis Warrior" full body liquid g
>suit to attempt remaining concious.  Note:I saw a dude in this stuff
>pulling 9g unstrained!  May have side undesirable effects, like ripping
>heart valves and such.

	Do you know any good sources of information on "Atlantis Warrior" 
type systems?  Government reports, scientific papers, whatever.  I'd like 
to research a non-gravitics campaign -- sorta like the 2300AD game.
	What pressure does the user experience?  Your note about heart 
valves suggests that the users blood pressure gets pretty high.  Also, do 
these suits have some kind of official names that I could do a search 
under?
	Any information you can provide may also find its way into the 
official Traveller technical architechture since I'm one of the people 
working on the Naval Architechts Handbook.  Thanks very much!

John

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:30:39 -0800
From: John Watts <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Starship design

Ok...
I've lurked too long on this subject I think.

It has always been my observation that in Traveller, in all its forms, 
ship detection was never a really big problem.  Considering the sensor 
capabilities of most of the published warships ( and the Donosev class 
scouts ), locating your enemy insystem should be insanely simple.

This should affect the ships in a large way.  Speed is not necessarily a 
problem.  I think ships would be bigger, heavily armed, and certainly 
heavily armored.  It seems that the naval strategy to have in Traveller 
would be to think big.  I think that since hiding is nigh on impossible, 
you would want a ship designed to take as many hits as possible.  A 
high manuever drive, high jump drive, and as much area and energy as 
possible for weapons.
	If you're going to be seen and known for what you are almost 
immediately, then you need to to have every ship able to take as much 
punishment as possible.  Most planets are going to be arsenels themselves 
(read meson gun emplacements ).  I agree that fighters ( and for that 
matter, Gazelles ) would be practically useless.  Why do you need a 
small, fast ship to scout things out for you, if you can see everything 
anyway?
	Maybe I'm totally off base with this, but I just think that 
starships would just keep getting bigger and bigger and able to withstand 
more hits and be able to dish out more firepower.  It is space after all, 
and why should we be constrained to a million tons?  Build a Death 
Star, put a J-6 drive in it, put a M-6 drive in it, armor it as heavily 
as possible, put every gun you can possible fit on it and send it forth.
The only restraint I can forsee is how much the navies wish to spend for 
their behemoths.

Thats my opinion, I could be wrong.

John
	
- -- 
" Give me ambiguity or give me something else!!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:59:18 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Tech Level

Harold D. Hale writes:

>P.S.  Many of you are probably wondering at this point, "is a bloody TL
>14 vac suit worth raising a major alarm over?"  The answer is of course
>not, unless you look at the larger picture.  My fear is that the
>creeping historical revisionism (which began with the changes to the
>Sylea subsector) is going to continue, intentionally or unintentionally,
>until the background history contained in the pre-TNE books is basically
>worthless.

As one of the people who originally claimed the TL 14 vac suit was not
"worth raising a major alarm over", I now have to agree with Harold. The
solution I used was to postulate the TL 14 items were not actually relics
from the Rule of Man, but from a contemporary TL 14 civilization. This
explained the source of the high-tech equipment, explains how "ancient
relics" were still functional, provided lots of neat adventure hooks, and
remains compatible with pre-Third Imperium history. In fact, it was to be a
major theme in my campaign.

However, as another poster pointed out, the existence of a TL 14 planet in
Mileu 0 does not square with earlier published material and the Third
Imperium timeline. Normally this would not bother me, since it is after all
my campaign. For example, I never felt compelled to try to reconcile events
in other GM's campaigns with my own. But now I'm not so sure. The
difference with Traveller is that it *does* have a well-planned timeline,
and I would like to remain consistent with it if I can. The Third Imperium
is so vast that I could imagine that all the Traveller campaigns are really
taking place at the same time in the same universe. In this light, Mr.
Hale's fear is well-founded; inconsistencies in the published canon can
lead to wildly diverging campaing histories and make the claim that the
Imperiums in Mileu 0 and Mileu 200 are the "same one" a farce. Is this a
problem? I don't know. For example, Chaosium made no effort that I am aware
of to force their 1890s, 1920s, and 1990s Call of Cthulhu adventures to
follow a single timeline, yet each Cthulhu mileu is enjoyable in itself.
Does Imperium Games want to make all their adventures follow a single
timeline? Can they? I don't know, but I would appreciate hearing other
player's thoughts on the matter.


Richard Hough

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:13:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Starship Combat Card Game?

Quoth David Smart:
> Tom Lane wrote:
> > What if in addition to the book, a card set was put out.  Basically
> > something like the "Magic" type games floating around lately?
> 
> IMO, these cards should include detailed Travelleresque external views
> of the ship being described on one side with the SSDS stats on the other.
> What I'd like to see is a side view with fore and aft views. Don't know
> if it's cost effective, though.

Use a "long card" format, like SJG's current "Dino Hunt."  (I think some
art cards have used it too).  On one side, a class name and logo with
line-art isometric views (computer-readout style?) of the ship: fore,
side, and top.  On the rear, give a third to a half of the card over to a
high-quality painting or render of the ship "in action," and the rest to
the gaming stats.  (Hmm, do we need to leave room for flavor text?  It
would be nice.  But agate type is so hard to read... :-)

> > The edge is that these cards would not only be playable as a relatively
> > simple card game, but would ALSO have the SSDS stats for use as a
> > supplement to the Traveller RPG.  As such they could be used in multiple
> > ways, and possibly draw new players in.

If you're going for simple card game mechanics, definitely go for the
larger card size.  You could print colored buttons in the corners of the
card (one or both sides) with the relevant numbers for play prominently
displayed there.  And if you need more than four numbers, it's not such a
simple card game. 

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:39:35 -0600
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Rem_700.HTM

   To Black Powder Index A Firelands.Net Publication Black Powder
   Journal, Vol 1, Number 2
   To E-Zine Index 
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   The Remington 700 ML
   By: Rick Kindig, Log Cabin Sports Shop 
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [LINK] 
   The Remington Arms Co. of Ilion, NY, an American icon for over 150
   years, is back in the muzzleloading business. The recent release of
   their new model 700ML, previously mentioned in our article "Buying a
   Muzzleloading Rifle", has caused a flurry of activity among black
   powder hunters across the country. Based on Remington's famous 700
   bolt action cartridge rifle, the 700ML enters into a market al-ready
   flush with in-line models from such well-known companies as Thompson
   Center, Knight, White, C.V.A., and others. Based on the results of a
   morning on the range with the 700ML, I predict it will compete
   successfully.
   
   At first glance it is hard to distinguish the muzzleloading 700 from
   its cartridge firing parent, except for the black aluminum ramrod
   under the barrel and rod carrier band 4" in back of the muzzle. The
   round, 24" long stainless steel barrel is mounted on the well-known
   bolt action receiver, which includes a thumb safety and is drilled and
   tapped for scope mounts. Other features include adjustable rear sight
   and a white bead front sight mounted on a ramp. The black synthetic
   stock has a pistol grip, monte carlo cheek piece, sling swivel studs,
   recoil pad and molded checkering at the wrist and forend.
   
   The overall length of the 700ML is 42-1/2", trigger pull is 13-1/2",
   and it weighs 7 lb. 10 oz. Included with the rifle is a hand full of
   accessories including a nipple wrench, breech plug wrench,ram rod
   extension and handle, Allen wrench and foul weather nipple shroud. A
   detailed instruc-tion book also comes with each gun, as does a
   firearms safety video. While this safety video is not particularly
   geared to muzzleloading, any shooter, no matter how ex-perienced,
   could benefit from viewing it once in a while as a refresher.
   
   I found the 700ML to be dependable, easy to operate and clean,
   accurate, and fun to shoot. I opened the bolt to check that there was
   no cap or cap residue on the nipple, and dropped the rod down the
   barrel to be certain there was no load in the barrel. Then I fired two
   caps to be certain the nipple was clear (holding the muzzle near a
   blade of grass will give visible proof of a clear channel when the
   grass moves). I measured 80 grains of G.O.I. 2F black powder, an
   arbitrary load that I believe to be on the lower end of reasonable
   hunting loads. I picked a Hornady 240 gr. XTP bullet and sabot for my
   first group. The sabot loaded with firm but manageable pressure of the
   aluminum rod. My second group was shot using the same 80 grain charge
   and a 385 grain Great Plains bullet. Again, this loaded with relative
   ease. The rod mounted with the gun is quite adequate for field use. It
   will accept any 10-32 threaded attachment. For loading on the target
   range or cleaning, there is an extension and handle that makes the
   whole process easier.
   
   At the firing line, I placed a CCI #11 cap on the nipple, pushed the
   safety to the fire position, and touched off the first shot. Cap
   placement was not a problem when shooting with open sights. However, a
   scope on top may limit access to the nipple such that an in-line
   capper would be necessary to conveniently place the cap.
   
   Recoil with the saboted load was no problem. However, after numerous
   shots with the heavier Great Plains bullet, I started to notice the
   recoil from the comb on my cheek. The stock is rather straight,
   however most shooters will probably want to use a scope, and the extra
   height of the scope will ease this situation.
   
   The adjustable trigger comes preset from the factory (not user
   adjustable), and provides a very crisp hunting level let-off. The
   trigger guard is standard 700 size and pro-vides less access than a
   T/C Renegade Hunter guard. The trigger has a wide face and would be
   accessible with most hunting gloves on.
   
   Rem 700 ML Target Firing from a bench at 50 yards and using open
   sights, I was able to keep five (5) sabot rounds in a 1-1/4" circle,
   with four of the five shots touching. With the Great Plains bul-lets,
   I maintained a 3" circle, but I think these bullets could turn in a
   better performance by adjusting powder charges. Based on this limited
   test I think the 700 will be an outstanding shooter within any
   reasonable black powder hunting range.
   
   Back in the shop, faced with the prospect of cleaning the rifle, I was
   pleasantly surprised with the ease of dis-assembly. An Allen wrench
   removes the bolt retaining screw and the bolt can then be withdrawn
   from the receiver. The long nipple wrench slides into the receiver and
   easily removes the 1/4 x 28 nipple. Reverse the wrench and the breech
   plug can be removed just as quickly. I was pleased to see that the
   plug was a simple affair that resulted in a very short flash channel.
   This allows fast, dependable ignition with little room for
   fire-stopping fouling to build up.
   
   With the bolt and plug removed, a solvent-soaked cleaning patch can be
   run through the bore from the breech. This task is facilitated by a
   factory provided rod carrier tube that slips into the receiver and
   helps get the wet patch into the bore without getting solvent into the
   trigger unit.
   
   The bolt assembly comes apart for cleaning in one step. A quick wipe
   down and a very light oil is all it takes here. I have seen cases with
   other in-lines where excessive lubri-cation of the bolt will prevent
   firing in cold weather because the frozen lube stops the firing pin
   movement. I don't know if that could happen with the 700ML (the spring
   is quite stout) but if you keep the lube light there should be no
   problem.
   
   After cleaning, re-assembly is quick and easy. One acces-sory I didn't
   make use of was the nipple shroud that comes with this gun. This
   simple tube can be pressed in place on the face of the bolt when out
   of the gun. In use it pro-vides additional protection to the nipple
   during wet weather.
   
   The Remington 700ML comes in .50 or .54 caliber, and in standard
   length or carbine style. And the $400.00 price tag (subject to change)
   makes the 700ML quite competitive with other quality in-lines. Anyone
   looking for an effective muzzleloading deer rifle should consider this
   piece. Ac-curate, dependable, easy to maintain, resistant to wear and
   weather damage and just plain fun to shoot, the Remington 700ML will
   become a major player in the muzzleloading hunting rifle field.
   
   If you would like more information on this or other muzzle-loading
   firearms and supplies, please call the Log Cabin Shop at (330)
   948-1082. If you would like to place an order for the Remington 700ML,
   or any other products that the Log Cabin Shop carries, please call our
   toll free order line (800) 837-1082 or fax your order to us at (330)
   948-4307.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   &copy Copyright 1996, Firelands.Net, Homerville, Ohio.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   To BPJ Index Start Over To E-Zine Index 
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Advertise in The Black Powder Journal Log Cabin Your Medallion Here
   Firelands.Net Your Medallion Here N.M.L.R.A. Ohio Outdoors E-Zine
   Your Medallion Here Your Medallion Here Log Cabin 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #888
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 27 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 889



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

"Primitive DS Rounds" vs Vacc Suits
Do's and Don'ts
Non-gearhead on ship design
Re:  Lots of complaints
Re: Misjump frequencies
Re: Historical battlecruisers (was Re: DNs and Cruisers)
re t4 availability in UK
Battlecruisers et al.
TSR and GEN CON
Re: Gearhead Alert!!!! Critical Ship Displacement Question
Re: White dwarf stars
Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
Re: reading matter
Re: Whither the dreadnought, fighter dudes and g load effects
Re: Circular PAWS
Re: reading matter

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:58:23 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: "Primitive DS Rounds" vs Vacc Suits

>together.  Otherwise, it would be like having discarding sabot rounds
>for a rifled musket.  That might fly on an episode of the "Wild, Wild,
>West" (American TV show) but not here.

The concept of the Discarding Sabot was used prior to 1700, with smoothbore
artillery firing subcaliber balls by placing them upon a solid wooden
board. Not particularly effective, but the concept is extant, and doable
with pre-modern tech. Just because *W*E* didn't do it doesn't mean it
cannot be done.

Vacc Suits, like many other specialty sub-fields are not (we can presume)
as narrowly defined as DS rounds... but as you said are multiple tech
threads.

Plausible way of TL 14 vacc suits in TL12-13 societies, IMHO

Biggest points of issue:
	1) Material
	2) Atm Recyc
	3) Pressure cylynders

1) Material- is there really that much change from TL12-14 in wearable
materials? Most such developments are semi-accidental (AFAIK), and each
leads to other spin-off technological materials; a corporate blunder could
have resulted in a matrerial whose effects are known, but whose mechanism
is not wholely known (much like the Silica-Titanium Heat shielding being
made on Jaquard Looms currently).

2) Atm recycling: aside from pressure handling and power requirements, is
there THAT much difference? We don't have much need for it, therefore
little development. Most TL 12-14 cultures will have had star travel for
QUITE some time, so better techniques based upon extant TL 12 theories may
have been developed, but not distributed.

3) Pressure Cylinders: AFAIK, we can get o2 into the pressures for TL 14
bottles now... we just don't want to hit them... again, it is materials,
which see above.

If some corporation happens to gain knowledge of those three
"specialty-experimental" items, which, again, are withing the cannonical +2
limit upon experimental tech, they could feasably (and expensively)
manufacture almost tl14 vacc suits; they would be just a hare less durable,
more expensive to own and operate, and ever so much more to purchase.

Also, we can CURRENTLY manufacture a vaccum suit that isn't bulky... but it
leaks some, and is hard to move in, and provides none of the radiation and
thermal protections the NASA ones do. It's a matter of trade offs.

AGAIN: Just because it hasn't happened that way doesn't mean it couldn't
have been!

William F. Hostman
Mailto:Aramis@Asylumbbs.com

Traveller, GURPS, Hero, WFRP, SFB, Star Wars, and Masterbook GM
Star Trek, B5, and Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:25:03 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: Do's and Don'ts

>
>	Please _DON'T_ do this!  The last thing T4 needs is another ship
>design system!  The QSDS and SSDS systems that appeared in the Main Rules
>and Starships, respectively, were well received by the Traveller
>community.  Though no design system is perfect, they are not only easy to
>use but are compatible with each other and with the forthcoming
>re-release of FF&S.  Introducing a new, incompatible, system would defeat
>the purpose of these previous systems and simply create more confusion
>about spacecraft in T4.

The majority of the vocal-minority like the current design systems... but
they DO NOT, as they claimed during the clamor some 6 months ago, represent
the whole of the populace, according to their own defence against the
surveys that said "No! Don't do that, do this Other Thing". Mind you, there
were 7 or 8 options; in the surveys, the current systems together didn't
win a majority, and I've heard as much criticism as praise for them. Please
don't break your arms patting yourselves on the back as of yet.

This is not to start a war, but I HATE the system from basic T4, I strongly
DISLIKE Starships' system (no offense dave and guy, it's better than pure
FF&S). I also THOROUGHLY DETESTED FF&S. I liked MT; but felt it needed a
little reworking to pull it out of its HG roots... and that it needed to
have all the additions pulled together and integrated into one set of
tables. [nb: I have these in WordPerfect, for anyone who needs them for
PERSONAL USE ONLY].

MT was, unlike the other systems mentioned in this missive, in a sequence
that was useable, easy to follow (I've explained the basics to 8th graders
and watched them build ships that were excellent, while I can barely follow
FF&S), detailed enough to have role-playing flavor (Lacking in T4's
systems), flexible enough to handle all sizes of craft with one main
sequence, and able to be put (all combined aspects except watercraft) into
a mere 30 pages at reasonable (9pt helvetica) type.

And for those who though MT was too detailed, it was merely HG and Striker
combined, less the weapon design sequences. HG designs use the exact same
weapon and screen values as MT designs. MT's space combat was, I freely
admit, almost as broken as T4's... TNE's was too complex... HG became MT,
thus is equally broken, and Bk2/Mayday was no good for large ships.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:Aramis@Asylumbbs.com

Traveller, GURPS, Hero, WFRP, SFB, Star Wars, and Masterbook GM
Star Trek, B5, and Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:00:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: Non-gearhead on ship design

     I don't claim to be any sort of expert in designing ships (I've made about
a half dozen over the years) but it seems to me that the QSDS (and possibly the
SSDS, which I haven't studied too closely) is more complicated and less 
logically intuitive than "High Guard" and is simultaneously less flexible,
which is a sure-fire sign to me that the system isn't as Ideal as some people
would have us think.  I think that the problem arises from the fact that the
designers' idea of "simplifying" FF&S was really just to strip away a lot of
the flexibility and decision-making, but not really doing anything to make it
easier to follow or really "simpler" (which is somewhat intangible but would
include, I think, such things as tables made up mostly of whole-number amounts,
logical explanations for why the numbers are what they are, and such).  As it
is, the QSDS is really only suited to "gearheads who are in a hurry" and
doesn't do that much for "us regular folks".  I'd like to see a ship design
system for Traveller that's no more complicated than "High Guard," but which
maintains enough flexibility that I can use it for all of my (amittedly, pretty
small) ship-design needs without having to resort to a more complex version, 
and I don't feel that the current systems fill these needs.
     I don't know if there's any way to fix this and maintain compatability at
the same time, and I'm certainly not offering any solutions, but rather just
pointing out that the people who are so staunchly defending the QSDS from
change might be doing so because they aren't the people who are most likely to
use it (that is non-gearheads) and therefore might not see it's weakness.
     If it turns out that I'm completely off-base because I just haven't looked
closely enough or tried using the various systems enough, feel free to tell me
so, but please don't all of you do it at once.

Trent Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:12:44 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re:  Lots of complaints

Idiot/Savant <idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz>
did on: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:07:24 +1300 (NZDT)
shumble out his lair and wiggle his tenticles

>Unknown:
>>To the gent from Louisiana who compained that they get things last. I 
>>bet you don't - Europe is still way slower.

>pmiller@linkeasy.net:
>> I'd argue Canada, at least Oakville, is the last to get products.
>> Only T4 product around here is the rulebook, and that didn't arrive
>> till October anyway.  I stil have yet to even see Starships,
>> Aliens, CSC, or JTAS

> Ha! You've got it good! I'm in New Zealand, and I am yet to see a single
>T4 product on the local shelves :( 

Mindgames here in Chch had five copies (well four
since I bought one) of T4 a couple of weeks ago.
I'm still trying to convince Euan to get more in.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
     "It was horrible said S.D. Murphy a witness"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:00:04 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Misjump frequencies

<big gulp> as tc dares to reply to Hans on a 'technical' subject!


>According to page 116 of the main rulebook the risk of a misjump is 1 >in
36. (Which, btw. I think is a mistake. You could propably run an >
interstellar economy with such a risk, but it would be a far cry from >the
one portrayed in Traveller).

Am I missing something or just being completely obtuse?

The 'risk' of a misjump is only 1 in 36 for those without an engineer or
using unrefined fuel.  The 'interstellar economy' (i.e. the vast majority
of ships?) is going to have an enginner and/or refined fuel which as I
understood it reduced the chance of a misjump to 0  (As you can't throw
less than 2 on 2d6).

I appreciate that situations are going to arise where the engineer's
missing, unrefined fuel's being used, you're several weeks past your annual
maintenance and so on...  but surely no captain's going to let that
situation go on and on and on and let the odds stack up like that.

Puzzled, of Southampton,

tc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:12:21 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Historical battlecruisers (was Re: DNs and Cruisers)

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:33:39 -0500
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@wizard.net>

>Tom Lane said:
>> The battlecruiser occupies a station below battleship and above 
>> cruiser, to my knowledge wtih obviously increasing power.  I do not 
>> think they existed prior to just before WWII, when they were invented 
>> by the crafty Germans as a way to violate/elude the naval tonnage 
>> treaties of the day. 

>Eris Reddoch said:
>> Battlecruisers were a design theory running counter to the heavily 
>> armored Dreadnaught theory.  They were build along side the 
>> Dreadnaughts during the pre-WWI period. They never were really 
>> very effective.  

>The classic battlecruiser combines the speed of a cruiser with the big guns of 
>a big-gun battleship (aka "dreadnought"), in a package about the size and 
>displacement of a battleship. [BC Tiger, 1913, 28,430 tons, 704 ft long; BB 
>Queen Elizabeth, 1913, 27,500 tons, 645 ft long]  If you think about this for 
>a second, you realize the only way to do this is to sacrifice armor, and 
>sacrifice armor they did.

Bad comparison. Tiger was built and designed under the 1911
estimates, Queen Elizabeth under the 1913 estimates. Tiger's
Battleship partner was Iron Duke (25,000 tons, 622 ft, 10 x 13.5
inch guns as against Tigers 8). Queen Elizabeth's Battlecruiser
partner was Hood (42,670 tons, 860 ft, with the same armour
and guns)

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
     "It was horrible said S.D. Murphy a witness"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:30:28 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: re t4 availability in UK

          I appreciate this may be a bit parochial for the North Americans (and
          others) but I think it's of wide enough interest to comment on.

          Colin (welcome to the list BTW) wrote:

          >BTW my local store is the Virgin Megastore on Oxford Street. London.
          >if
          they can't get things then smaller shops around the country are >going
           to
          find it even harder.

          I must admit this is what I'd thought.  In Southampton, my local
          Virgin
          (nice image, huh?), had T4 and Starships (and sold out) but had not
          heard
          of AA and CSC.  I was preparing for the 'long wait' when I happened to

          visit my brother who lives near Southsea Models in Portsmouth.
          Southsea
          Models is one of those delightful shops cram packed with second hand
          stuff
          [1], board games, RPGs, minatures, magazines and so on.  I can browse
          in
          there for hours.

          They had several copies of all *four* of the IG books (including AA,
          and
          CSC).  What's more the Starships book was cheaper than it had been in
          Virgin.

          While I appreciate there won't be many who can just pop over to
          Southsea,
          it is worth casting about the 'obscurer' shops who evidently know a
          thing
          or two the giant chain stores don't.

          Londoners like Colin might like to try Leisure Games, 91 Ballards
          Lane,
          Finchley, London, N3 1XY  0181 346 2327.  They list all the new IG
          products in their latest catalogue they just sent me.  Whether that
          means
          they have them or not I don't know but they will mail items in the UK
          for
          an additional 10%.

          Hope this helps folk get hold of what you need.

          tc


          [1] If any wants any of the 'commoner' little black books fairly
          cheap,
          let me know.  [Phil might like to know there's a couple of copies of
          Space
          Opera too - I'm saving, I'm saving! - they're expensive.]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:12:33 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Battlecruisers et al.

I'm responding to a lot of posts here, so please bear
with me. As many have pointed out this does not
really belong here so I'll try to keep this brief and
relate it to traveller.

The basic definition (as I see it) is not one of design
parameters but one of intended role. The first
battlecruisers (Invincible, Indomitable and Von der
Tann classes) were simply extensions of the
traditional armoured cruiser role (and initially
designated as such). That is scouting and
commerce warfare. However they rapidly evovled
into another role, that of a fast wing of the battle
fleet, using their speed to gain an advantagous
position in battle, hence the change in designation
in 1912. This change lead to a change in design
philosophy. They became much larger than
battleships, their protection improved markedly
and their firepower decreased in comparison (vis
Tiger  class  and her battleship equivilant the Iron
Duke class [both from the 1911 estimates]: 15%
bigger, 80% of the protection, 80% firepower) and
reached it apothetis with HMS Hood (compare to
Queen Elizabeth class BB, same protection, same
firepower, 40% bigger). The same is true for almost
all the many battlecruisers which were killed by the
Washington Treaty (the USN's Lexington class stand
out as the exception).

Essentially the battlecruiser evolved into the
fast battleship, and had done so by 1914. Later
clear examples of battlecruisers are Scharnhorst
and Dunkerque classes (Battleship protection,
cruiser speed, firepower somewhere in between).
This was the role of the Iowas when they were
designed in 1936-7 (long before the supremacy
of carriers, or the need for battleships to keep
station with them was realised) and they stand
out as exceptions to the normal US design
practice (compare with their successors the
Montanas).

Under CT and MT these ships can not be built (the
6g limit prevents them), but they can be built under
FFS (and by extension QSDS and SSDS). However,
as has been pointed out, the original large armoured
cruisers can be built (big jump with sacrifices
elsewere) for commerce warfare. Here however the
comparison would be with the 'monster' frigates
built by the British and US in the early years of the
19th C (USS Consitution or HMS Leander are good
examples).

I think it is an error to compare Traveller naval
warfare with 20th C naval warfare. As Eris
has pointed out, a much closer parallel (well
as close as one can get in an abstract game
of the far future) is to the classic age of sail
(and much more fun too, IMHO).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
     "It was horrible said S.D. Murphy a witness"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:01:53 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: TSR and GEN CON

"Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> mentioned:
>> If GenCon happens.. evidently T$R is in big trouble.. but that's another...
>Well, since I've already pre-registered for GenCon, it'd darned well 
>better happen...

I've been told that this was merely an excuse for the top lady to get rid of
some people that she didn't like. Sounds like the RPGA didn't go out of
their way to please her, so all but one got fired... :-)

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:24:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gearhead Alert!!!! Critical Ship Displacement Question

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>>>    First, great analysis.  Second, you do not have Gearhead Virus. 
>>> Anyone with "gearhead" would have finished his or her demonstration 
>>> with a theoretical displacement for the Death Star (the original, 
>>> not that stationary gun platform in the third movie).
>>>
>>>    I once speculated as to what *that* number might be, but then
>>> regained my sanity.
>>
>>It's actually rather simple to figure (and a *lot* smaller than they'd
>>have you believe). As I recall it works out to *well* under 20 km. 
>
>    Now see, here's someone with Gearhead Virus!
>
>    BTW, 20 km??!  I'd say it's far larger than that, at least 30 km,
> based on how large it appears in relation to the Rebel fighters and how
> long it takes them to traverse its surface.

Maybe 20 miles...

> Someone around here I'm
> sure has the proper Star Wars RPG sourcebook with the correct answer.

That'd be the "official" answer. That doesn't mean that it is
*correct*. Mine was based on *measuring*. The official sizes of the
Falcon are rather silly in places. Why should the Death Star be any
different?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:02:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: White dwarf stars

In mail you write:

>>Do all white dwarf stars evolve from the main sequence stars, or can they
>>start out as such?  
>
>    For pretty much all practical purposes, white dwarfs stars evolve
> from main sequence stars.  No star starts out as a white dwarf, in any
> event, period.  Stars like our Sun start life evolving rapidly from
> condensations in nebula to proto-stars and onto the main sequence, where
> they remain so long as they have hydrogen to burn.  Once the hyrogen
> supply runs out, they begin to expand into the red giant phase, where
> they burn helium (the byproduct of all that hydrogen fusion).  Once all
> the helium has been expended, the star begins a process of rapid
> contraction (which is sometimes accompanied by a violent explosion
> called a 'nova') which results in a white dwarf.

I think you have a few details wrong, unless there have been
developments I haven't heard about.

A main sequence star is burning hydrogen in the core. If it is
sufficiently low mass, when the core has run out of hydrogen, the
resulting contraction of the star *won't* result in helium burning in
the core, though it could result in some hydrogen burning farther out. 

Most stars have enough mass for helium burning to start after the core
runs out of hydrogen. This requires *much* higher pressures and
temperatures than hydrogen burning. So the non-intuitive result is that
the outer layers of the star expand greatly. This makes it a "red
giant". 

The helium burning core will be surrounded by a shell that is burning
hydrogen. 

For some stars, this is as far as it goes, when the helium runs out in
the core it collapses to a white dwarf. This will tend to blow off the
outer layers, but I'm not certain that it results in a Nova. More
likely a small supernova. But I'm not even certain about that. I
thought they contracted rather tamely.

Heavier stars will be able to reach core pressures that allow fusing
heavier elements, but much the same applies. At some point, they hit a
limit where they can't fuse what's left in the core. And they'll have
shells surrounding the core "burning" successively lighter elements as
you approach the surface.

The big limit comes when the core is producing iron (Fe56) as the
output of the fusiion reaction. Fusing iron into heavier elements
*uses* energy, it doesn't release it.

So when the fuel at the core runs out *this* time, there's nothing to
stop the collapse. The core winds up collapsing to a neutron stars and
then as it tries to expand again, the outer layers of the star fall in
on it and detonate. This *does* make a supernova. And it pretty much
wipes out any planets.

There is evidence that new planets can form from the nebula created by
the supernova. But they will be *very* odd...


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:36:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis

In mail you write:

> Could we presume that vessels operating together would have some type of
> synchronized timekeeping, such as an atomic clock, in each ship, with each
> message between ships being time & velocity stamped so that each receiver
> could adjust the data for integration to local data? 

At 300 km/s the tau factor is .9999995. That means that clocks will be
running about 500 nanoseconds off. That means that you've got a 500
*foot* error due to velocity difference.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:45:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: reading matter

In mail you write:

> Hi peoples,
> its going to be a couple of months before I can play T4(the guy who is
> going to run has let the fact that his Phd thesis is due in March stop him
> from running. How inconsiderate :) >)
>
> So I was wondering, besides reading this list if people could suggest to me
> some reading matter to keep me going till then. Especially novels with a
> 'Traveller' feel about them.

Well, I've recommended the Mageworlds series by Doyle and MacDonald
before. While it isn't Traveller compatible in some ways, it *feels*
like Traveller.

And while not Traveller at *all*, I've just finished a book that would
make a great source for an adventure. "Jed the Dead" by Alan Dean
Foster. I'd *love* to see the fun if some M0 players exploring a new
world found Jed. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:54:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Whither the dreadnought, fighter dudes and g load effects

In mail you write:

> Speaking from a postion of higher than normal g user, here is a quick
> rundown of g tolerance:(g suit give 1 - 1 1/2 extra g to all)
>
> g LOAD      CUTE LITTLE EFFECTS
>
> -1.5 - 3.0  Normal human resting g tolerance (3 g is uncomfortable, -1.5
> unbearable)
>
> 3.0-4.5  Tough, muscular human resting tolerance; normal human needs to
> start trained anti-g straining maneuver
>
> 4.5-7.0  Tough human needs to strain, normal human reaches straining g
> tolerance and blacks out due to gloc; 
>  
> 7.0-9.0  Incredibly difficult; tough human requires trained straining
> technique; bomber pukes like me do "funky chicken"(estimated, not
> verified), geasels all over legs and butt and lower body
>
> 9.0-12.0  Tough human does "funky chicken." Bigtime geasels(lower
> capillaries burst into skin)  Need "Atlantis Warrior" full body liquid g
> suit to attempt remaining concious.  Note:I saw a dude in this stuff
> pulling 9g unstrained!  May have side undesirable effects, like ripping
> heart valves and such. 
>
> Hope folks get some use out of this.  Don't try to stand up under higher
> than 3-4g.  You may permanently break something.

One *big* difference in Traveller. Fighter pilots will be taking the g
forces "lying down". Due to the lack of aerodynamic forces for turning,
you have to use thrusters to change orientation, and the main drive to
change *vector*. 

Since the big forces *always* come from the main engine, you are taking
Gs in the "chest to back" direction rather than the "head to toe"
direction. 

This should *greatly* increase the number of Gs you can pull. 40 g
"bursts" in this direction are *known* to be survivable, and 10 g for a
minute of so shouldn't be difficult.

We'd need NASA centrifuge testing data to find more accurate limits.
But 3g for extended period should be *easy*. Which gives us 9g if
g-comp is limited to 6g.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:33:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Circular PAWS

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Spiral isn't a possibile configuration. But *circular* IS!.
>> 
>> Also, going by what hass been learned in building particle accelerators
>> for *research, it's safe to say that the beam(s) can go around the ship
>> several times. It's easiest to have them exit at a tangent to the ring,
>> but that's not really a problem.
>> 
>> Also, with decent amounts of "standby" power, and a good design, you
>> can do several interesting things. First, you can maiuntain a
>> "circulating" beam. That is, many many bursts, oor even a continous
>> stream, circling all the time. And you can have multiple firing ports
>> for one ring. So with one ring, you could fire several shots at the
>> same time! But they'd have to be in different directions. Still, it's
>> useful.
>> 
>> If the design rules *don't* allow for this, they *should*.
>
> I thought that a circular PAWS was extremely susceptible to battle
> damage, i.e. a single hit which disrupts the circle takes out the
> weapon. Someone on the TML did post FF&S-based design rules for such
> a weapon and I believe it mentions this weakness.

That would be a consideration, but given that you have to be able to
handle particle streams at several different stages of acceleration (on
a multipass ring) you'll have emough "redundant" magnet capacity to
handle small breaks. 

Also, you can sacrifice some diameter for armor. In other words, build
the ring deeper inside the ship. That'll make it harder to hit.

Heck, for a design that never lands, a toroidal (donut shape) ship
might be a good idea. The ring would be in "middle" of the torus, and
quite well protected. And the torus gives a lot more surface area for
mounting turrets and docking bays and the like. 

Among other benefits, any missile that comes from the "face on"
direction is going to need special programming, or its attempt to hit
the center of the target will cause a complete miss! :-)

And think of the number of point defense weapons that can bear on a
target coming in from that direction....

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:44:36 -0500
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@wizard.net>
Subject: Re: reading matter

Peter Hurley asked:
> So I was wondering, besides reading this list if people could suggest 
> to me some reading matter to keep me going till then. Especially 
> novels with a 'Traveller' feel about them. 

The _Exordium_ novels by Dave Trowbridge and Sherwood Smith.  [My apologies to 
those who ghave seen this post before.]  Here are the backcover blurbs from 
the series, which are presented on Dave Trowbridge's web page (can't get to 
the URL just now, but I found it by searching for "exordium" on Alta Vista):

The Phoenix in Flight (ISBN 0-812-52024-6) 

Humans have colonized a thousand worlds, and empires have risen and fallen. 
Now the Phoenix House rules the Thousand Suns from their planet Arthelion. And 
now the Panarch Gelasaar has won the mortal enmity of Eusabian, Lord of 
Vengeance, Avatar of Dol, the ruler of Dol'jhar. 

In one swift instant that has taken more than twenty years to plan, Eusabian 
will strike, slaying Gelasaar's sons and taking the Panarch himself captive. 
And then Eusabian will sit on the Emerald Throne, and Dol'har will rule the 
Panarchy of the Thousand Suns. 

But Brandon nyr-Arkad, the Panarch's scapegrace son, has chosen this moment to 
defy protocol and evade a ceremonial duty. And so he escapes the death 
prepared for him, and lives. Now the hope of the Thousand Suns rests in the 
sensual, surprisingly capable hands of an aristocratic fugitive with an agenda 
all his own. 

Ruler of Naught  (ISBN 0-812-52025-4) 

Jerrode Eusabian, Avatar of Dol, sits uneasy on the Emerald Throne of the 
Thousand Suns, while Brandon vlith-Arkad, rightful heir to the throne, is 
harried across space. 

Brandon was meant to die, along with his two older brothers. But he escaped by 
merest chance--now he is the only hope for the restoration of the Phoenix 
House and the salvation of the people they once ruled. Brandon and his allies, 
the crew of the Rifter ship Telvarna , must flee from peril to peril in search 
of the one haven no Rifter would ever willingly seek: Ares Station, heart of 
the Panarchy's military power. 

And across the unthinkable reaches of space, the scattered Fleet of the 
Thousand Suns is slowly learning that their Panarch has been taken, and their 
home worlds sacked. 

A Prison Unsought (ISBN 0-812-52026-2) 

Brandon vlith-Arkad is safe on Ares, the Panarchic Navy's HQ. The sole heir to 
the Emerald Throne must now fight a battle of symbols and deadly political 
intent, if he is to win the power to order the Navy into battle, to rescue his 
father, and win back the Panarchy now usurped by Eusabian of Dol'jhar. 

With him in this prison of velvet ropes and poisoned gifts is the crew of the 
Telvarna , the Riter pirates whose loyalty Brandon has won in battle. 

Meanwhile, Brandon's father, the Panarch of the Thousand Suns, is being 
transported to the prison planet Gehenna. On board the ship he is fighting his 
own subtle war with his former fosterling, Eusabian's son, Anaris. If Gelasaar 
can discover any hint that Anaris can rule as an Arkad would, the captive 
Panarch will aid Anaris to overthrow Eusabian himself. 


The Rifter's Covenant  (ISBN 0-812-52027-0) 

From Pirate to Emperor... 

Young Brandon Arkad has been brought by war and disaster to a duty he never 
expected: Panarch of the Thousand Suns, Emperor of the human worlds beyond the 
Rift. But his Empire is in shambles, as the implacable Jerrode Eusabian and 
his Rifter allies continue to pillage whole planets, and the Emerald Throne is 
out of reach on occupied Arthelion. 

The surviving nobility of the Panarchy have gathered aboard Ares , the 
headquarters of the Panarchic Fleet. Now Brandon must grasp the power given 
him in the moment of his father's death, and wield it to wrest his empire from 
the hands of the usurper. But he must win the faith of his people before he 
can hope to win a war, and that will not be easy. 

For there is a traitor at the heart of the Panarchy, thwarting Brandon's every 
move with poisonous rumor and murderous plots--a traitor at the center of 
Brandon's councils, close enough to be invisible--a traitor who will stop at 
nothing to destroy the Arkad dynasty. 


The Thrones of Kronos  (ISBN 0-812-52027-0) 

The final battle for the Thousand Suns is at hand. Brandon hai-Arkad is 
Panarch, yet still uncrowned, for his throne remains in the hands of his 
enemy, Jerrode Eusabian of Dol'jhar. The fleet has been gathered, the order of 
battle drawn. Brandon will reclaim his father's empire, or die.

Trowbridge says:
"I like to think of it as a sort of weird hybrid of the Lensman series and 
Dangerous Liaisons."

This series is great (I rank it with _A Talanet for War_ and _Dragon Never 
Sleeps_), and has some wonderful touches.  Examples:
1) The Panarchy is vast, with no FTL communications.  As a way of getting 
around this, some trusted individuals (we don't know how many) are given ONE 
veto over actions by local officials.  Nobody knows who these officials are, 
though, until they exercise their power.  All the computer systems in the 
Panarchy (which are programmed by computer virus), however, have a list of 
eligible people, and when one of them (they are called the "<something> 
Covert" and "<something> Overt", depending on whether they have used the power 
or not) says that he is invoking his veto, he immediately takes total control 
over all the computer systems within range.

2) Battle computers are controlled and display informaion by means of a system 
of glyphs which, like Chinese, can display huge amounts of data with only a 
few characters.  This is a problem for the good guys, as the bad guys have 
acquired FTL communications (this is revealed in the first 100 pages of the 
3000 page series, so I don't feel bad about revealing it <grin>), and the 
system of glyphs used in Panarchic tactical systems has no way to deal with 
this.

3) Everyone carries a combination personal digital assistant/terminal/
communication system known as a "boswell".

4) Ships carry two types of weapons, disruptors and "skipmissiles", a photon-
torpedoe like energy/plasma burst which skips in and out of hyperspace.  
Skipmissiles are especially useful in assaults on planetary shields.  The 
planetary shields transfer the energy they deflect directly to the crust of 
the planet.  If a siege is long and intense enough, eventually the planet must 
surrender or it will be torn apart by earthquakes.

After about 100 pages I cam to the conclusions that this series was everything 
that Classic and Mega-Traveller should have been.

- --Chris Weuve
caw@wizard.net (h)    caw@intercon.com (w/day)    chrisweuve@usa.net (perm) 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the 
things I cannot, and a great big bag of money."  [author unknown]

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #889
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 27 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 890



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

A better source(and actual goodbye) : semi-long but tasty(non-vilani)
RE: Distribution problems
starship design
Common Vilani names?
Re: Battleships, Battlecruisers and Dreadnaughts
Re: Eurisko
Re: Tech Level
Re: Common Vilani names?
Re: White dwarf stars
Re: Tech levels
Re: Misjum frequencies
Re: TL of 2nd and 3rd Imperiums
RE: A new weapon for people - an idea
RE: ttne-spreadsheet update soon available
MT DesignSys kicks ass?
Re: Ringworld RPG
Re: Battlecruisers
Re: Traveller Auction: Update #2

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:35:14 -0800
From: Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net>
Subject: A better source(and actual goodbye) : semi-long but tasty(non-vilani)

From: LT Dan Lane  
> Date: Sunday, January 26, 1997 4:18PM
>

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
THIS DOES NOT REPRESENT THE US NAVY (but should)


> Allow me to introduce myself,  my name  is Dan Lane and I'm a naval
> officer currently serving aboard the USS CLARK at sea.   Now to get
> to the heart of the matter.  Are large ship displacements necessary
> in the Traveller universe?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Why?  Well,  the old High Guard and MegaTraveller rules maximized
> TL15 spinal mounts at the "Type T."  This weapon could conveniently
> fit inside a carefully designed 75,000 ton cruiser such as the
> NEMESIS class (type ZN from Fighting Ships of the Shattered
> Imperium).  Ostensibly this was the largest mount available for
> starships of the Imperium.   Under this assumption, the optimum
> configuration to maximize line of battle firepower would be the
> largest possible number of spinal mounts, (i.e. the largest possible
> number of type T spinal mounts implying smaller, sub-dreadnought,
> cruiser sized ship).  Cruisers are not resilient under line of battle
> conditions, lacking the heavier screening and defense batteries of a
> battleship.  This gives ruise to the construction of battleships,
> which mount sufficient defensive armament to stand in the line of
> battle under otherwise withering counter-fire.
> 
> So battleships will be larger than the minimum Type - "T" carrying
> ship, which would be a cruiser, which I shall call the "mini-T."
> 
> Historically, battleships displaced about 3-7 times as much as
> cruisers of the day (drawing of WWI and WWII data).  For example, a
> typical WWII cruiser displaced 10-15 KTons, while the full loaded
> IOWA class BBs displaced about 50 KTon during WWII and up to 62 KTon
> as on the Gulf War era.  (Why the change in BB displacement?  Because
> 62KTon is the full-load displacement incorporating the equipment
> added after the end of WWII.  By comparison, the YAMATO displaced 72
> KTon and was the largest warship of its age.  The largest ships were
> the French NORMANDIE which displaced 83,400 Tons and the British QE2,
> which displaced 83,700 Tons.
> 
> Currently, the largest warships in existence are US NIMITZ class
> aircraft carriers, which have full-load displacements in the 98 KTon
> range.  The REAGAN and TRUMAN will displacements of 106,000 Tons.
> There are also plans to construct carriers with supertanker-class
> displacements, but these may not see development.
> Why the need for size?  Well, in carriers, to support heavier
> aircraft designs and more aircraft, giving the platform greater
> striking power.  The largest ships in existence are supertankers such
> as the Exxon Valdez, with full load displacements in the 250 KTon
> range.
> 
> Now note that these displacements measure the mass (and volume) of
> water displaced by the ship's weight and are NOT Traveller
> displacements.  Both are specific volume equivalents.  I believe that
> the figure of 100 cubic feet per register ton is an approximate
> figure of convenience.  In any case, I believe that measurement of
> shipping tonnage was codified by the Washington or London Naval
> armaments treaties that were signed prior to the pre-WWII naval arms
> race.  Correct me if I'm wrong, I have no references available on
> ship, so I'm going by memory.
> 
> In BB's the need for size is driven directly by the size of the main
> armament and the complimentary defensive armor/armament.  In the
> IOWAs, this requirement was for  three batteries of three 16 inch
> guns and the complimentary armor.  In the YAMATOs, for 18 inch guns.
> Note that the YAMATO's main armament could theoretically waste an
> IOWA, but air bombardment and torpedo hits eliminated her from the
> war.
> 
> The problem in Traveller space combat is that there exists no
> equivalent to the submarine, and even fighters are disimilar in
> function to modern fighters.  Both subs and planes take advantage of
> third dimesnions which the ship can't move or effectively respond in.
>  In Traveller, this relationship is untrue.  Ships can perform all
> functions in all dimensions save for maneuvering, which is the
> fighter's armor.  With sophisticated computer targetting, even this
> "advantage" ceases to exist with the advent of speed of light
> weapons.
> 
> So the only strategies which remain are the attritional "massive
> ship" strategy and the maneuver warfare "small stealth ship"
> strategey.  Note that the effectiveness of a spinal mount is direclty
> equivalent to its length.  Larger ships can carry defensive screen
> generators and defensive batteries that increase in effectiveness
> largely in proportion to ship displacement.  So the end result is
> that the spinal mounts of small ships will be relatively inneffective
> against very large ships, meaning that a single dreadnought, a
> LEVIATHAN, can effectively destroy an entire enemy fleet of
> "efficient" ships without itself sustaining critical damage.  These
> conclusions stem from two basic assumptions (derived from FFS):
> 
>         1)Maximum spinal mount length and ship lengths are integrally related
>         2)Spinal mount range is proportional to ship length
> 
> The dreadnought, being longer with a longer and larger effective
> range, can kill smaller ships without itself being attacked and can
> more effectively screen itself against counterattack.  The small
> ships must close within attack range to themselves attack, and expose
> themselves in the act of attcaking.  Large missile weapons (spinal
> mount instead of bay or turret-sizxed) are innefective against the
> massive defenses of a dreadnought, and lesser weapons lack sufficient
> power to significantly damage a dreadnought.  This relationship is
> NOT true today.  Aircraft carried bombs and missiles are
> comparatively similar to primary shipboard armament, whereas in
> Traveller, fighter armament is largely incapable of inflicting
> critical hits on very large vessels.
> 
> In the end, dreadnoughts are the weapons of choice for attrition
> warfare oriented spacefaring powers with comparable or competetive
> neighbors.  Smaller ships will also be built in much larger numbers
> than the dreadnoughts in order to simply control the vast regions of
> space encompassed by the power, in this case, the Third Imperium, but
> the core of the fleets will remain the dreadoughts and equivalently
> sized battle-riders.
> 
> If there is any interest, I'll address the topic of battle-riders and
> planetary deep sites in a future letter.  These are very interesting
> topics.  Simply put, only a maniac would conduct an open strike upon
> a high tech, high population world, no matter how many dozen
> dreadnoughts he had under his command.  Given the element of
> surprise, however, such a strike is possible.
> 
> BTW, the NIMITZ displaces 98KTon full load.  The relationship between
> current ship interior volume and displacement seems to be about 4.47
> to 4.66 cubic meters per displacement ton, which close to your
> friends calculation.  By this calculation, the Nimitz  displaces
> between 32.5 and 34.0 KTon in Traveller.  By your friend's
> calculation, it displaces about 20KTon, which also may be right,
> since carrier hullforms aren't the same as LSD41 hullforms (which is
> what I used, not the LPD17 hullform).  So how is this interesting?
> Because this means at 75KTon, the MANWE(75,000ton Planet cruiser) has enough interior volume to
> hold 2.2 to 3.75 NIMITZ class carriers.  Even the REAGAN will rate in
> at only 36.5 Traveller KTon.  Modern suppertankers (250KTon in
> current terms) will rate about 86KTon in Traveller,a nd they are in
> excess of 140o feet long.  (i.e.  Planet class cruuisers are BIG by
> today's standards).  In comparison, the Enterprise D (from Star Trek)
> is about 610m long and the "E" about 720m long.  The TL11 Nostromo is
> 250m (800 feet) long and the TL12 Sulaco 612m (775m max) for 300,000
> Traveller Tons.
> 
> As far as our LEVIATAHANs, dreadnoughts, battleships, and cruisers go:
> 
> SHIVAs                              (II)              12.6 MT
>         3250 m
> LEVIATHANs                   (II)              10.0 MT                 2750 m
> DREADNOUGHTs        (BI)              3.0 MT                  2200 m (est.)
> SYLEA                               (BB)           750  KT
>       1625 m
> 
> Rift Cruisers           (CJ)            100 KT                   500 m
> Planet Class                    (CA)              75 KT
>     400 m
> 
> In comparison, a SATURN V displaces 461 Traveller Tons.  Yep.  That's
> it.  461.
> 
SECOND MESSAGE(27 Jan 97)

Looks like the folks on the TML are a bit more educated that the LM
folks!

Yes.  Of course I'll contribute!

The reply to your message was largely correct, if not completely.  The
NIMITZ class carriers are rougly one half the displacement of the
Traveller
PLANET class cruisers, but my understanding is that the register ton is
NOT
an exact measure.  I have no documents to support this information.  As
you
know, I have conducted extensive studies of ship structure and
displacement
progression.  Ship sizes are largely a function of maximum material
strength,
but since the mid 1800s there has existed another determinant, the width
of
the locks of the Suez and Panama canals.  PANAMAX vessels are vessels
with a maximum beam such that they can safely pass through the locks of
the
Panama Canal.  This is an artificial restriction, but a real one
nonetheless.

The US is currently considering constructing carriers much larger than
the
NIMITZ class although. I don't think this will happen for reasons I
do not care to
elaborate on.  The REAGAN (CVN 76) will displace 106,000 tons. 
Supertankers 
displace upwards of 250,000 tons.  Also, the volume to displacement
ton  ratio is inexact.
My calculations are based on computer analysis of the LPD 17 hullform
and the French
Foudre hullform, which differed in their exact ratio.  The ratio for
LPD 17 was about 4.7.


Why bigger starships?  Becasue the ship is actually built around the
spinal mount,
not the reverse.  The ship class will be engineered bottom up around
the spinal
mount as it's central system.  If you can shoot farther than your
opponent and see far
enough to shoot him, the battle is one before the first shot
(theoretically).  The argument
about maximum efficiency is also wrong.  Efficiency wins battles, as
does equipment excellence.
Witness the number of US combatants sunk since WWII and "other"
combatants.  It
is 0 to some number in the teens I belive.  Big ships kill little
ships.  Eat 'em for breakfast.
Stealth throws a monkey wrench in this, however.  The Arleigh Burke's
are the most awesome warship
ever conceived or built.  There is no weapons system in the world,
except for a submarine, that can defeat them.  A new Arleigh Burke
can defeat any known surface or air threat, even an entire air force
(up to the number of missiles the ship carries).  It's not even a
match.  That's how awesome a ship can be when you trade quantity for
quality.   Quite a payoff.

Gotta go.  I'll write more later.


Dan Lane(hivertwin)

Sorry guys-this is my last message.  I'll probably drop in later.
Tom

(Anybody who REALLY needs to discuss this can still get me at my email. 
I just have to gear down on my instructor course.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:10:28 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Subject: RE: Distribution problems

>----------
>From: 	eris@pen.net[SMTP:eris@pen.net]
>Sent: 	Friday, January 24, 1997 5:57 PM
>To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: 	Distribution problems
>
>
>I've had the same problem here in the States.  Game stores either had (or
>had heard of) T4 & Starships, but not CSC or Aliens.  The comics stores had
>heard of T4, but didn't stock it.  None were interested in doing a special
>order either!  
>

That's too bad to hear. I go to a Comics/Games shop.  They didn't have
AA in but did have CSC.  I picked up CSC and asked about AA.  Manager
asked if she wanted her to order it for me.  Of course I've been doing
business there for 7 years now, but they have always been good about
getting things in for people if it's not in stock.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:12:50 +0000 (GMT)
From: mark james wilkin <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: starship design

> 	Maybe I'm totally off base with this, but I just think that 
> starships would just keep getting bigger and bigger and able to withstand 
> more hits and be able to dish out more firepower.  It is space after all, 
> and why should we be constrained to a million tons?  Build a Death 
> Star, put a J-6 drive in it, put a M-6 drive in it, armor it as heavily 
> as possible, put every gun you can possible fit on it and send it forth.
> The only restraint I can forsee is how much the navies wish to spend for 
> their behemoths.
> 
> Thats my opinion, I could be wrong.
> 
> John
The only trouble with death stars is that million to one shot by a young 
rebel pilot down the exhaust tube:-). No really all you are really making 
with these big ships is a sign saying Shoot ME. If they can't take you 
out using capital ships they'll find another way like the 
infamous Zohdani(sp?) teleporting commandos with suitcase nukes(tm).
Or destroying its line of supply, can you imagine the maintainace a ship 
that big will need, not to mention feeding the crew.
throws 2 euro pence into the pot
"Yes I'm calm, I'm a calm person, is there any reason why I shouldn't
 be calm......WHAT!" The Abyss
Mark James Wilkin
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 06:37:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Common Vilani names?

    Had this thought a while back, but what would be the "common" names that
the average Vilani or Vilani descendent would possess?  You know their
equivalent of John, Jane, Herny, Alice and so on?  And the family names too?  I
mean the Vilani must have the equivalent of Smith, Jones, Johnson, Tailor and
so on.

    Thoughts??

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:57:47 -0600 (CST)
From: ccguy@showme.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: Battleships, Battlecruisers and Dreadnaughts

Perhaps we are looking to the wrong wars. It strikes me with the variety
of types and small size of many ships, that an interesting model for 
this situation might be the late nineteenth century - before there were 
dreadnaughts, but when there was plenty of naval innovation and
considerable argument over whether big-gun battleships, cruisers, 
torpedo boats, submarines, or rams would be the ships of the future. 

It is easy to be blinded by the World Wars into thinking those are the
only models. I think the Anglo-Dutch wars of the Seventeenth Century - 
perhaps the only purely naval wars in history - might also provide
an interesting model. 

Guy Wilson

On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Tom Lane wrote:
> 
> I agree the future will not mimic the past, particularly not in
> space(WWII example.)  The problem is that we don't want to use a system
> that doesn't represent reality to any degree.  (i.e. The question does
> it give a bunch of lightly armed ships advantage over bigger, better
> armed ones due to numbers?  Is this reality?)
> 
> What is the precedence or justification for this, other than "that's
> what the game system says happens?  These are difficult questions, and
> it comes down to how do you want to establish your universe?  The
> fundamental assumptions of the game come from this basic question.
> 
> Seeing as the T4 book, to my knowledge, isn't very wieldy for the design
> of very large high-tech ships, T4 has all the space in the world to
> evolve.  I'm not even sure Sylea has any truly big ships to test this
> out...yet.
> 
> But they will come, and all of those glorious battles throughout our
> shared history will get to be fought.  We need to have an idea of the
> governing ground rules behind these fleet engagements-who is fighting
> and with what?  What is the "Dreadnought" that shakes the navies of the
> 46th century?
> 
> Again-we decide, but our decisions have tremendous ramifications.
> 
> As a side note, I DO NOT want to rengineer systems or whatever.  I just
> want it to work with as little effort as possible, producing results I
> can say "Yeah, It probably would work that way."
> 
> canonhiver
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:52:03 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Eurisko

Tom Lane <trlane@texas.net> wrote:

> Steven Bonneville wrote:
> > "More small ships are often better than few big ships."  (I think
> >  this had to do with increased redundancy and to-hit difficulty.)
>
> Neato:but is it real world or has the game modelled a phantasm? 

Phantasm, of course!  Optimal ship design will change, perhaps radically,
depending on the "rules" in place.  I was just pointing out features of
High Guard that EURISKO discovered.  They may or may not be true with the
TNE ruleset, and we don't know about T4.  But it would probably be worth
looking into.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:17:34 +0000 (GMT)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Tech Level

One explaination for the TL 14 vacc suit could be found with one of the 
Alien Races in Gateway Sector. They were detailed in MegaTraveller 
Journal 4, in an adventure written by W.H. Keith (can't get more canon than 
that!). All I can remember was that they were uninterested in Star 
Travel, but had achieved TL16 on their one-and-only world by the 
Rebellion Era. Maybe Second Imperium traders got as far as their world? I'll 
try and post some more info on them as soon as I can loocate my copy of MTJ4.

Eamon.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:19:57 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?

>     Had this thought a while back, but what would be the "common" names that
> the average Vilani or Vilani descendent would possess?  You know their
> equivalent of John, Jane, Herny, Alice and so on?  And the family names too?  I
> mean the Vilani must have the equivalent of Smith, Jones, Johnson, Tailor and
> so on.
> 
>Stephen

Sounds like something fun for you to work on and submit to JTAS!  I'd 
use it.  In fact, it would come in handy in my PBeM game <G>

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:55:44 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: White dwarf stars

>So when the fuel at the core runs out *this* time, there's nothing to
>stop the collapse. The core winds up collapsing to a neutron stars and
>then as it tries to expand again, the outer layers of the star fall in
>on it and detonate. This *does* make a supernova. And it pretty much
>wipes out any planets.

The core collapses into a Neutron star if there's sufficient mass, if not
there'll be a white dwarf instead.

>There is evidence that new planets can form from the nebula created by
>the supernova. But they will be *very* odd...

Those planets might be odd but for beings that live on them they'll look
completely normal (one example of a race of such beings is the human race).


/Backman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:40:59 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Tech levels

Peter Newman suggests that:
>The Second Empire was TL 12 it just happens that they had a few planets 
>that made a few experimental TL 14 Vac Suits.  

My point was that these TL14 Vac Suits are common enough, 1500 years after
the collapse of the Rule of Man, to be sold on the open market on Sylea.
This implies that they have been recovered in significant quantities. I
don't know what the odds are of any one suit surviving for 1500 years, but
they can't be good. If they had been experimental suits there might be one
or two carefully preserved specimens in Sylean museums, but surely not on
the open market.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:27:26 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Misjum frequencies

Timothy Collinson writes:
>>According to page 116 of the main rulebook the risk of a misjump is 1 in
>>36. (Which, btw. I think is a mistake. You could propably run an inter-
>>stellar economy with such a risk, but it would be a far cry from the one 
>>portrayed in Traveller).
> 
>The 'risk' of a misjump is only 1 in 36 for those without an engineer or
>using unrefined fuel.  The 'interstellar economy' (i.e. the vast majority
>of ships?) is going to have an enginner and/or refined fuel which as I
>understood it reduced the chance of a misjump to 0  (As you can't throw
>less than 2 on 2d6).

Not according to the text on page 116. Drive failure is affected by using
unrefined fuel and/or lack of proper maintenance, and a drive failure may
affect the jump drive, but that means the jump drive won't function at all
(a result far more desirable than a misjump). Misjumps seem to be a separate
hazard and occurs on a roll of 2-. DMs: +1 if using unrefined fuel, +5 if
jumping from within 100 diameters. Furthermore, unlike in Megatraveller, 
where most misjumps just resulted in a bit of nausea and time distortion,
any T4 misjump results in a 1-36 parsecs jump in a random direction (As an
added feature misjumps now keep you in jump space for 1-6 weeks). There's
no mention of any negative DMs for adequate maintenance. (Unless it is
mentioned elsewhere in the rules. I won't claim to have read the book from
cover to cover).



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:07:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: TL of 2nd and 3rd Imperiums

Hi.

>    You cannot simply declare previous canon as "one interpretation of
> events" (as I have heard someone who may or may not be associated with
> IG say previously).  That is a cop out, designed to allow people avoid a
> lot of what they consider to be "unnecessary" reading before they start
> writing for a previous storyline.

Hmm. Trav has always had a special knack for making assertions about its
own universe (like tidbits about the Droyne, Zhodani, and Aslan) which
slowly but surely get contradicted by later evidence. IMHO, this is THE
aspect of Trav which makes it so special. Nothing is certain; question
everything; keep an open mind.

As I recall, very litte was said about about past TL's in CT. MT, with
its love for endless detail, said more than made sense about TL's and
just about every other aspect of Trav. When MT came out, its new
detail-ridden universe was bound to contradict in at least some respects
every detailed campaign already being run by CT refs, as well as CT
canon. Examples include:

1) Jump fuel use in MT contradicted CT rules on the subject.

2) Needless detail about lanthanum grids made necessary excruciating
rationaizations of previous ship designs.

3) New details about the Moot make this political body's existence
ridiculously improbable.

And other irks and quirks which just didn't make sense. So if MM wants
to abandon some MT canon which abandoned previous CT canon, I cannot
fault him for that.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:51:30 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: A new weapon for people - an idea

In mail you write:

>While you *can* buy 10 Farad capacitors (about the size of a beer can)
>they can't handle more than about 50 volts. That gives a total energy
>of 12.5 kilojoules. Which won't do more than give you a nasty burn (if
>that). The dielectrics that allow such high capacitances *can't* handle
>high voltages.

	This limit isn't true any more.  In the November '96 issue of 
Automotive Engineering (pg. 36), ultracapacitors are described in 
some detail.  These devices had originally been designed by Lawrence 
Livermore National Laboratory for use in SDI weapons.  Carbon
aerogels, a low density, high-pore-volume material, allows the storage
of higher charge per volume.  These devices have capacities up to 
40 farads/cm^3.  The power densities have been shown to be more 
than 7kW/kg, and using aqueous electrolytes have been reported at
4W hours per kg.  These devices also hold their charge for weeks 
at a time.
	One company, Maxwell Laboratories, Inc., have already 
fabricated and tested 24Volt cells with specific energies of 4.5W hours per
kg and holding 1kW/kg of power.  These devices are about the size of
a grape.  They have also built a 2300farad 3V device capable of 
delivering more than 100Amps.  I still don't think this is small enough
to power lasers very well though.  I'll do the math tonight.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:23:17 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: ttne-spreadsheet update soon available

- ----------
From: 	Goran Sjoberg[SMTP:NGC1201@communique.se]
Sent: 	Sunday, January 19, 1997 7:48 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	ttne-spreadsheet update soon available

>3. I wanted it to the best fucking spreadsheet I ever created.

Now, that's something I thought no spreadsheet could ever do!

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:02:13 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: MT DesignSys kicks ass?

>And for those who though MT was too detailed, it was merely HG and Striker
>combined, less the weapon design sequences. HG designs use the exact same
>weapon and screen values as MT designs. MT's space combat was, I freely
>admit, almost as broken as T4's... TNE's was too complex... HG became MT,
>thus is equally broken, and Bk2/Mayday was no good for large ships.
>
>William F. Hostman
>Mailto:Aramis@Asylumbbs.com

The problem with MT design system was that it was not the designsystem
itself but rather that all this detail put into design was meaningless in
the combat system.
BTW Has anybody on the list actually used the space combat system as put
forth in MT? I couldn't figure it out. The rules as written seemed so silly
I thought there were large chunks of rules misprinted or whatnot but the
errata didn't touch spacecombat much.


/Backman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 18:42 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Ringworld RPG

In-Reply-To: <32eb6202.5440384@mail.Direct.CA>

<< Well... I DO have a copy and it IS for sale!  It seems that my current
gaming group feels the most comfortable with one referee ref'ing one
game and it will probably stay that way for quite a while (ie: I doubt
I'll ever get a chance to play it).

I also have the Companion that was released shortly thereafter.  If
you want it, drop me a line! >>

The last time I saw a copy in a 2h shop, it was selling for 50 ($80), 
and that was 5+ years ago...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:12:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Battlecruisers

On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Tom Lane wrote:

> 
> The reason I brought this battleships thingy up here was to get the
> "feel" of TMLers for this subject.  How are ships employed in the Third
> Imperium?  Is WWI/WWII the precedent or should we be looking to our
> wargames to give the answer.  
> 
> To me all games are based on assumptions.  Basing conflict and combat
> sytems to model a historical  event is as likely as not.  The only thing
> we really know from history is that it probably won't look like we are
> depicting it.  And we won't be around to care(probably.)
> 
> So let's have fun!

Agreed!

Well, the "Vision" I always had for Traveller space combat (from CT
primarily) was more of the Napoleanic model.  

Think about the following assumptions;

Fighters manuver only incrementally better than larger vessels (as opposed
to an order of magnitude better like present day fighters).

Large ship combat generally favors the larger vessel over the smaller.
i.e.  A 10,000 ton vessel will almost always defeat a 5000 ton vessel.
Although the smaller vessel has a not insignificant chance of defeating
the larger.

With the exception of spinal mounts (of which only one exists on each
ship[in CT]),  armament is in large banks of identical weapons fired in
unison.  

Communication is at the speed of the ship carrying the message.

Nobility is a major component of Imperial Society.

All of these seem to me to contribute to the "Hornblower" model of space
combat in terms of flavor.  The high guard system also contributes to
this, especially the critical hit tables, rare as they are (in equal
battles).  In CT as in the Napoleanic Era, to fight a vastly superior
opponent was simply to waste your men's lives (usually).  In WWI and WWII,
on the other hand, a destroyer was a valid (though unlikely) threat to a
BB.  and a submarine was even worse, in spite of on occassion being a
small fraction of the size of their victim.

T4, I think, moves a bit away from that vision (as did FF&S logically).
This accomadates the gearheads since the CT system doesn't really allow
good designs to beat bad designs as readily.  But I will still use
Hornblower and Aubrey as the models of Traveller Naval life, and try to
interpret combat systems as "Old Ironsides in Space".

Pete  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:35:38 -0700
From: Sanders <kalin@swlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Auction: Update #2

Here's another stab at a Traveller Auction.

The Auction will run until Feb. 12, 1997.
All bids should be in dollar amounts.
Postage is $2.00 for first item, and .50 cents for each additional item.
Payment should be in either check or money order.
Prompt payment is appreciated.

The following persons bid and did not pay in past auctions, and are not
welcome to bid in this one.

lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
NVDoyle@aol.com
Ted7@world.std.com
Danny_M._Moody@bridge.com

CLASSIC TRAVELLER:
- ------------------

"Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #1: Soldiers of Fortune" (SJG)
 Circa: 1982. Scale: 15mm. Condition: Mint. (Uncut)
 Bid: $4.00 pnewman@alaska.net

"Pilots Guide To The Caledon Subsector" by J. Andrew Keith 
 Circa: 1984. Pages: 74. Condition: Mint. (Bound Manuscript)
 Bid: $12.00 pete@cummings.uchicago.edu

"Imperial Lines #2" (GDW)
 Circa: 1992. Pages: 8. Condition: Mint. (Fanzine)
 Bid: $4.00 pnewman@alaska.net

"Challenge Magazine #25" (GDW)
 Circa: 1986. Pages: 48. Condition: Good.
 Bid: $5.00  beck@mail.all-mail.net

MEGATRAVELLER:
- --------------

"101 Vehicles" (DGP)
 Circa: 1988. Pages: 49. Condition: Good.
 Bid: $10.00 pete@cummings.uchicago.edu

"Travellers' Digest #19" (DGP)
 Circa: 1990. Pages: 56. Condition: Good.
 Bid: $10.00 pete@cummings.uchicago.edu

"Laboratory Ship - Deckplans" (Seeker)
 Circa: 1989. Scale: 25mm. Condition: Mint. (Shrink Wrapped)
 Bid:

"Subsidized Merchant - Deckplans" (Seeker)
 Circa: 1990. Scale: 25mm. Condition: Mint. (Shrink Wrapped)
 Bid:

TRAVELLER - TNE:
- ----------------

"Clipper Module Weapons Bay" #5819 (RAFM)
 Circa: 199?. Scale: ?. Condition: Mint. (Blister Pack)
 Bid:

"Ship's Boat" #5811 (RAFM)
 Circa: 199?. Scale: ?. Condition: Mint. (Blister Pack)
 Bid:


MISC.:
- ------

"The Praesidium Of Archive" by Jefferson Swycaffer (Avon)
 Circa: 1986. Pages: 196. Condition: Fine. (Traveller Inspired Novel)
 Bid:

"SpaceGamer Magazine #15" (Metagaming)
 Circa: 1978. Pages: 31. Condition: Good. (Article: "Robotics In Traveller")
 Bid: $3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

"Journeys Magazine #2" (GDW)
 Circa: 1992. Pages: 47. Condition: Fine.
 Bid:

"Sniper! - Special Forces" (SPI)
 Circa: 1992. Pages: Folio. Condition: Good. (Unpunched)

- -----

That's it for the present. I will post updates every day or so.

Ad Astra,
Paul

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #890
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 28 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 891



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

ADMIN: Vacations
Re:  TSR and GEN CON
Re: Common Vilani names?
Re: Battlecruisers
Re: Traveller stuff for sale, OOPS!
Re: Death Star Displacement
Re: TL of 2nd and 3rd Imperiums
Re: Common Vilani names?
New Ship Design System?
Re: reading matter
Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
Batteries and Naval Architecture
Re: Bye Bye
Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
Re: Circular PAWS
Re: Battlecruisers
Re: Common Vilani names?
Re: Babel fish
Re: Criticism and comment &/or Long-Pig?
Traveller Music
Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:08:12 -0500 (EST)
From: James Nicoll <james_n@ece.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: ADMIN: Vacations

	Stupid question: I about to go away for a week and I would rather 
not have a million TML msgs to sort through whenI get back. Is it 
possible to be put on hiatus for a week or ten days?

								James Nicoll

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:55:52 EST
From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton)
Subject: Re:  TSR and GEN CON

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:01:53 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
>I've been told that this was merely an excuse for the top lady to get
rid of
>some people that she didn't like. Sounds like the RPGA didn't go out of
>their way to please her, so all but one got fired... :-)

Well, RPGA people weren't the only ones to get the ax before
Xmas.............

AND the rumor I got was that T$R, quite recently, had to give Gary Gygax
a big chunk of $ due to royalties they owed him (or LW owed him) for
their premire game system.  Which is kinda nice IF Gary was the one of
the factors that put them in their financial straits.
AND
They've sold off their buildings and are now renting office
space..................

BUT 
I doubt GENCON would be cancelled, it's too big a moneymaker for T$R, and
that IS their main concern ($)..........IMO.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:19:11 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?

s.johnson107@genie.com wrote:
> 
>     Had this thought a while back, but what would be the "common" names that
> the average Vilani or Vilani descendent would possess?  You know their
> equivalent of John, Jane, Herny, Alice and so on?  And the family names too?  I
> mean the Vilani must have the equivalent of Smith, Jones, Johnson, Tailor and
> so on.
> 
>     Thoughts??

This is a very good question. I can only come up with one: the
food-processor guys (Shugilli) would, in something of the same tradition
of us terrans using occupational names like, uhm, "Miller." I wonder if
this is a play on MWM's name . . . .

In one or another of the MT books is a chart to generate Vilani words;
this might allow one to generate a lot of common Vilani words that can
translate to name-elements.

What we really need is a Vilani-English dictionary in the tradition of
MAR Baker's  Empire of the Petal Throne. Mr. Baker once published a
Tsolyani-English dictionary for his game world . . . .

Just a thought of my own . . . .

- --Rich Ostorero
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:42:56 -0600 (CST)
From: ccguy@showme.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: Battlecruisers

Good argument! In addition, the deciding factor in Napoleonic 
naval combat, whether single ship or fleet actions, was usually
the quality of the crew and officers - the size of the ships 
was important, but unless the discrepency was huge, it was 
the crew quality that mattered. I think this fits Traveller, 
which is more oriented towards characters and skills than 
pure technology.

Guy Wilson

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Peter  H. Brenton wrote:

> 
> 
> Agreed!
> 
> Well, the "Vision" I always had for Traveller space combat (from CT
> primarily) was more of the Napoleanic model.  
> 
> Think about the following assumptions;
> 
> Fighters manuver only incrementally better than larger vessels (as opposed
> to an order of magnitude better like present day fighters).
> 
> Large ship combat generally favors the larger vessel over the smaller.
> i.e.  A 10,000 ton vessel will almost always defeat a 5000 ton vessel.
> Although the smaller vessel has a not insignificant chance of defeating
> the larger.
> 
> With the exception of spinal mounts (of which only one exists on each
> ship[in CT]),  armament is in large banks of identical weapons fired in
> unison.  
> 
> Communication is at the speed of the ship carrying the message.
> 
> Nobility is a major component of Imperial Society.
> 
> All of these seem to me to contribute to the "Hornblower" model of space
> combat in terms of flavor.  The high guard system also contributes to
> this, especially the critical hit tables, rare as they are (in equal
> battles).  In CT as in the Napoleanic Era, to fight a vastly superior
> opponent was simply to waste your men's lives (usually).  In WWI and WWII,
> on the other hand, a destroyer was a valid (though unlikely) threat to a
> BB.  and a submarine was even worse, in spite of on occassion being a
> small fraction of the size of their victim.
> 
> T4, I think, moves a bit away from that vision (as did FF&S logically).
> This accomadates the gearheads since the CT system doesn't really allow
> good designs to beat bad designs as readily.  But I will still use
> Hornblower and Aubrey as the models of Traveller Naval life, and try to
> interpret combat systems as "Old Ironsides in Space".
> 
> Pete  
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:05:01 +0000
From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller stuff for sale, OOPS!

sorry about the 64 bit attachment

Heres the list the hard way:
CT boxed set[no boxes though]
Animal Encounters
Double Adventure #6
Diaspora Sector
MT Players book
MT Imperial Encyclopedia
MT Refs Companion
MT Rebellion Sourcebook
Survival Margin
RCES Equipment Guide
Aliens of the Rim
Star Vikings
Smash and Grab
a couple of the Adjutant Vehicle Guides

theres also some 2300 AD 
and other GDW RPG stuff

Adventureland
620 N. Main
Bloomington Illinois, 61701
309-829-3622

The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 97 22:05:37 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Re: Death Star Displacement

	
>Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:55:59 -0500
>From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
>Subject: Re: Gearhead Alert!!!! Critical Ship Displacement Question
>
>Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>>>    First, great analysis.  Second, you do not have Gearhead Virus. 
>>> Anyone with "gearhead" would have finished his or her demonstration 
>>> with a theoretical displacement for the Death Star (the original, 
>>> not that stationary gun platform in the third movie).
>>>
>>>    I once speculated as to what *that* number might be, but then
>>> regained my sanity.
>>
>>It's actually rather simple to figure (and a *lot* smaller than they'd
>>have you believe). As I recall it works out to *well* under 20 km. 
>
>   Now see, here's someone with Gearhead Virus!
>
>   BTW, 20 km??!  I'd say it's far larger than that, at least 30 km,
>based on how large it appears in relation to the Rebel fighters and how
>long it takes them to traverse its surface.  Someone around here I'm
>sure has the proper Star Wars RPG sourcebook with the correct answer.
>
>Regards,
>
>Harold
>
>------------------------------
>
20km? 30km? You're /both/ way off... (and this post proves I'm way off,
too, but that's a different story).

According to the Death Star Companion book for the SW RPG v2, it has a
diameter of 250 kilometers.

That makes its volume about 8,181,230 cubic /kilometers/.  I make it
8.181230869 E15 cubic meters for a Traveller displacement of 5.84376335 E14
dTons.

Well, /someone/ had to do it.

Jeff (who really should be doing his homework) Kazmierski
- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\      "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________
        odysseus@novia.net
  http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 17:11:17 PST
From: "J.D. Burdick" <twolf@conterra.com>
Subject: Re: TL of 2nd and 3rd Imperiums

Speaking for myself only, I agree...I would prefer a fixed system
regardless of how much canon it destroys.  Using canon, instead of common
sense, can lead you down the yellow brick road.  Just because something has
that way before doesn't mean it has to stay in the game system. Let's fix
thing right now, instead of promigating (sp) errors just because there now
canon.

JD
Twolf

- ----------
> Hi.
> 
> >    You cannot simply declare previous canon as "one interpretation of
> > events" (as I have heard someone who may or may not be associated with
> > IG say previously).  That is a cop out, designed to allow people avoid a
> > lot of what they consider to be "unnecessary" reading before they start
> > writing for a previous storyline.
> 
> Hmm. Trav has always had a special knack for making assertions about its
> own universe (like tidbits about the Droyne, Zhodani, and Aslan) which
> slowly but surely get contradicted by later evidence. IMHO, this is THE
> aspect of Trav which makes it so special. Nothing is certain; question
> everything; keep an open mind.
> 
> As I recall, very litte was said about about past TL's in CT. MT, with
> its love for endless detail, said more than made sense about TL's and
> just about every other aspect of Trav. When MT came out, its new
> detail-ridden universe was bound to contradict in at least some respects
> every detailed campaign already being run by CT refs, as well as CT
> canon. Examples include:
> 
> 1) Jump fuel use in MT contradicted CT rules on the subject.
> 
> 2) Needless detail about lanthanum grids made necessary excruciating
> rationaizations of previous ship designs.
> 
> 3) New details about the Moot make this political body's existence
> ridiculously improbable.
> 
> And other irks and quirks which just didn't make sense. So if MM wants
> to abandon some MT canon which abandoned previous CT canon, I cannot
> fault him for that.
> 
> -Rob
> 
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:58:25 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?

Quoth s.johnson107@genie.com:
>     Had this thought a while back, but what would be the "common" names that
> the average Vilani or Vilani descendent would possess?  You know their
> equivalent of John, Jane, Herny, Alice and so on?  And the family names too?  I
> mean the Vilani must have the equivalent of Smith, Jones, Johnson, Tailor and
> so on.

JTAS 17 gave the common first names for Vilani -- I'll look it up in my
copy at home.  Last names are still wide open, as far as previously
published material goes.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:11:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: New Ship Design System?

Hi folks,

I found out what was meant by the "new ship design system" mentioned in 
the IG Web Newsletter.  At this point, it is planned that QSDS will serve 
as the basis, but it will be modified based on the complaints they have 
on file (i.e., what members of this list have said about it).  Absolutely 
nothing is certain at this point as to what may or may not change.  My 
guess is that Marc Miller and Guy "Wildstar" Garnett will work closely to 
make the version of QSDS that appears in the Deluxe Edition of T4 the 
best it can possibly be.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:11:07 -0500
From: jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block)
Subject: Re: reading matter

In article <3.0.1.32.19970127023902.00686e54@connexus.apana.org.au>, Peter
Hurley <fantomas@connexus.apana.org.au> wrote:

> Hi peoples,
> its going to be a couple of months before I can play T4(the guy who is
> going to run has let the fact that his Phd thesis is due in March stop him
> from running. How inconsiderate :) >)
> 
> So I was wondering, besides reading this list if people could suggest to me
> some reading matter to keep me going till then. Especially novels with a
> 'Traveller' feel about them.

I'll put in my two cents here - 

The Honor Harrington series by David Weber (who worked on Starfire, btw). 
Great for space combat ideas.  The Mote in God's Eye.  Pournelle's John
Christian Falkenberg series, for Mercenary campaign inspiration.  Starship
Troopers.  The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.  Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan
series.  L. E. Modesitt Jr's Ecolitan & Forever Hero trilogies.  Daniel
Keyes Moran's The Long Run (excellent treatment of advanced computer
networks).  Poul Anderson's Flandry series.

Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

Unix is a user friendly operating system, it's just very selective about
which users it wants to be friends with, and even the best of friends
occasionally fight.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:42:43 -0500
From: jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block)
Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis

In article <9702516184922550@mychelle.other-plane.miamisci.org>, Craig
Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> wrote:

> One of the major problems faced in using towed arrays is (big surprise)
> maneuvering.  When you're on a constant course and speed, the array
> stretches out behind you nice and straight, it's easy to model the
> relative placement of the sensors, and life is good.  Turn the ship, and
> the array gets a bend in it...it almost acts like there's a pulley in the
> water, around which the array turns.  Until you drag the whole array
> through the turn, it's very *hard* to figure out relative placement of
> your sensors...not impossible, but hard, and prone to errors.
> 
> Of course, in space you wouldn't have this problem; dynamics are a lot
> simpler in vacuum, as is positional measurement.  And putting your array
> on a string rather than as free-flying drones means you don't have to put
> engines and the like in the sensor pods.  Hmmmmm...you may be onto
> something, here!
> 
> BTW, if you're using Sinclair thread, no need for comm lasers.  It's a
> superconductor; just multiplex your sensor signals up the cable.

I wanted the sensor mounted on a drone so that I can lob it in the general
direction I suspect the enemy fleet is in, and let it coast through and
burst transmit the data back over a laser.

Additonal benefits of drone mounting are that you don't need to worry about
your evasive manuevers snapping your array cable, or (as has been suggested
already) have a 6 pack of missiles ready to nail enemies who light up their
active sensors.

Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

I went to my first computer conference at the New York Hilton about 20
years ago.  When somebody there predicted the market for microprocessors
would eventually be in the millions, someone else said, "Where are they
all going to go? It's not like you need a computer in every doorknob!"

Years later, I went back to the same hotel.  I noticed the room keys had
been replaced by electronic cards you slide into slots in the doors.

There was a computer in every doorknob.
        -- Danny Hillis

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:07:32 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Batteries and Naval Architecture

It occurs to me that many military spacecraft, particularly small ones,
might be designed to only be able to operate for a very limited length of
time.  A specialized variety of "skirmishing gunboat," for example, might
spend only a tiny fraction of each battle within range of its target. Such
a vessel would only need to fire its energy weapons a few times, and
wouldn't need to keep its defensive screens energized for very long,
either.  Wouldn't some kind of extremely high output rechargable "battery" 
(I'm using the term loosely) be a better source of power than a large
reactor?  Such vessels *would* have a small conventional power plant, one
just adequate to power its maneuver drives, and allow it to keep up with
the rest of its squadron.  Power for energy weapons and screens, however,
would come from a substantial "battery pack," enabling a very small ship
to, if only very briefly, produce an unexpected amount of energy.  Perhaps
I'm allowing myself to be tainted by space opera - I'm thinking of
something along the lines of that suicidal Orion raiding ship in an old
"Star Trek" episode, or the "primary beams" of the Lensman series... 

                                                             - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:56:37 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Bye Bye

Tom Lane wrote:
> 
> Sorry to leave, folks.  Duty calls.  Catch you in a year or so.
> Tom

Keep the flame, bud!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 02:33:44 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis

At 07:36 AM 1/27/97 +0000, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>At 300 km/s the tau factor is .9999995. That means that clocks will be
>running about 500 nanoseconds off. That means that you've got a 500
>*foot* error due to velocity difference.
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

That is why I suggested a time and velocity stamp. If we know what the time
stamp of the sending ship is, and the velocity it is travelling at when
sending the data packet, adjusting for the tau factor biasing the incomming
data should be relatively simple; analogous to compensating for wind in the
days of sail. 


Garry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:36:01 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Circular PAWS

Leonard Erickson wrote:
   <snippage>
> Heck, for a design that never lands, a toroidal (donut shape) ship
> might be a good idea. The ring would be in "middle" of the torus, and
> quite well protected. And the torus gives a lot more surface area for
> mounting turrets and docking bays and the like.
> 
> Among other benefits, any missile that comes from the "face on"
> direction is going to need special programming, or its attempt to hit
> the center of the target will cause a complete miss! :-)
> 
> And think of the number of point defense weapons that can bear on a
> target coming in from that direction....

I can see it now...

Corsair Ship
  Sensor officer: "Sir, sensors show the ship to have a circular hull."
  Captain: "Hah, another lab ship! Hail them and tell them to prepare
            to be boarded.
  Sensor officer:  "No answer, sir. Wait! We're being painted with
            target acquisition frequencies!"
  Captain: "What!?"
  WHAMMO!!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 02:21:20 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Battlecruisers

At 04:15 AM 1/27/97 +0000, you wrote:
> <snip>
>From what I've gleaned from the previous posts on DNs, BBs, and
>cruisers, look to the available technology, then the environment
>the tech is going to be used in. For example, PAWS will lead, IMO,
>to capital ships with a great deal of redundancy among surface
>installations, heavy armor, and power dedicated to weaponry,
>resulting in relatively slow ships and naval slug fests.
>Meson weapons will lead to light armor and power dedicated to
>screens, resulting in faster ships and an increased change of
>hi-g, passing engagements. Hull shape would be whatever gives
>the best chance of survival in the most commonly expected types
>of engagement.
>
>Comments?
>

Yes. The design philosophy will change as the tech level of the weapons
systems changes. What is a dreadnaught at tl 10 may barely qualify as a
cruiser by tl 12 and slip to a destroyer class by tl 14. As I mentioned in
an earlier post, the classification of armor will change as the power of
whatever standard weapon a navy uses changes with tech level. 

Bigger ships can sustain more damage than little ships; however if the
little ship that was expected to be built around at tl 10 3600mj npaws,
turns out to have built around a tl 12 3600mj npaw, the bigger ship is going
to be hurt badly.

Garry
   

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:07:25 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?

At 01:19 PM 1/27/97 -0800, Rich Ostorero wrote:

>This is a very good question. I can only come up with one: the
>food-processor guys (Shugilli) would, in something of the same tradition
>of us terrans using occupational names like, uhm, "Miller." I wonder if
>this is a play on MWM's name . . . .

Marc you devious......  it took us nearly 20 years to make this connection?

>What we really need is a Vilani-English dictionary in the tradition of
>MAR Baker's  Empire of the Petal Throne. Mr. Baker once published a
>Tsolyani-English dictionary for his game world . . . .

IIRC, Vilani was a tonal language, with each element having six different
tonal varieties.  Thus you get 

E(2)ne(5)ri(1)= A common man's name vs.
E(5)ne(6)ri(1)= Bread pudding

Any attempt at Vilani trnaslation would have to account for this, plus the
fact that many terran tonal languages also incorporate verb form into the
pitch.  

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:23:38 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Babel fish

At 03:47 PM 1/25/97 EST, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <970122191126_100326.446_JHF141-3@CompuServe.COM>
>
><< Hmn. CoC is OOP as I recall, Traveller has been until 
>recently. RQ has had mere scrap released for it in five or 
>six years. Interesting. CoC must be the _least_ modified 
>game rules system in the entire pile. >>
>
>NAFAIK. CoC is up to at least 5th ed, but the changes are fairly minor.
>
>    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
>Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
> "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"
>

CoC is available, according to my FLGS.  Chaosium et al seem to consistently
put out 3 - 4 suppliments per year for it...  






- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:09:34 -0500
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Criticism and comment &/or Long-Pig?

At 02:00 AM 1/24/97 -0900, William Hostman wrote:

>As for wheter or not humans have an *instinctual* anything is questionable;
>by definition from my Sociology text (I almost failed for arguing against
>the definition), humans cannot have instinct. "Instincts are paterns of
>behaviour which cannot be overridden by the organism" [from my notes during
>SOC 101]. All human patterns of behaviour a subject to conscious override.

<sigh> Oh, you had one of *those* profs for SOC 101.

The one I had used a bit broader definition: "Humans have
instincts, but we're more loosely tied to them than
just about any other critter thanks to all that wrinkly
grey gunk in our big, fat heads."



JB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 23:23:50 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Traveller Music

Just a quick note (hopefully, one that will stimulate discussion).  I picked up
a copy of _Symphonic Suite Yamato_ on my travels.  This CD contains orchestral
versions of the background music from Space Cruiser Yamato (aka Starblazers).
Some of it makes pretty good Traveller mood music.

Another of my favorite albums for this purpose is _Bandwidth_, from Atomic
City and Team Metlay.  Some real dinosaurs here on the TML might recognize
that last name; yes, it's the same person (his _Band of Fire_ limited-edition
CD-single is also excellent).

Does anyone else have favorite Traveller music?

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 22:17:28 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

On 01/27/97 at 09:57 AM,  ccguy@showme.missouri.edu said:

> It is easy to be blinded by the World Wars into thinking those are the
> only models. I think the Anglo-Dutch wars of the Seventeenth Century - 
> perhaps the only purely naval wars in history - might also provide an
> interesting model. 

Well, that's 3 of us! <g>  

So, let's talk...during the "age of sail":

Ships could stay at sea for *long* periods, they were forced into port
mainly for food and water.

Damaged ships could usually be repaired by their crew, even in primitive
conditions.  Ships carried carpenters, iron mongers, sail makers, and the
tools they needed to keep a ship in trim.  Heavily damaged ships could
sail...or be towed to most any port where it could be repaired.

Weapons for almost *all* ships, from lowly merchantman to mighty SOL, had
about the same range and did about the same amount of damage.  The SOL just
had *lots* more of them.  Hitting at range was *heavily* dependent on
gunnery skill.

Warships could take lots of punishment.  You could pound holes in the
wooden hull, wreak the masts and sails, sweep the decks killing crew,
silence the cannon, and the ship would still be afloat.  

Most losing ships ended up being captured along with most of their crews,
not being destroyed.  The captured ships ended up refitted, renamed, and in
the navy of the other side.

Ships could be sighted at much longer ranges than you could shoot at them,
and long stern chases were common.  Speaking of speed, all ships were
within a few knots of each other, so ships and fleets could often simply
attempt to refuse battle by sailing off and losing themselves in the night,
the fog, the distance.

The ship's maneuverability was important in single combat, and was
*heavily* dependent on the skill of the crew and sailing master. Before and
during combat ships maneuvered to achieve an advantage, mainly to be able
to cross the other ship's bow or stern (crossing the T), or to gain the
"weather gauge" (get the wind so they could sail away from the opponent).

Individual ship maneuverability was less important in fleet actions. They
combat consisted of long formal lines of ships sailing in line, so as to
maximize broadside firepower and minimize the chance of the other side
being able to defeat you piecemeal.  Most battles didn't destroy entire
fleets, when one side saw it was going to get whipped it would break off,
and usually could sail away.

Most combat seemed to take place near ports, not on the open ocean. Colony
ports on strategic islands were often captured and lost a dozen times
during a war.

What else?

How does all this compare to the environment and the kind of
technology we have to deal with in the Traveller universe.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #891
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 28 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 892



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: New TNE Skills
More Age of Sail, discussion
White dwarfs and planets
Classic Traveller Auction #7
RE: reading matter
Re: Common Vilani names?
Re: Tech Level
Re: White dwarf stars
Re: ttne-spreadsheet update soon available
Re: White dwarf stars
Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"
Re: Common Villani names ?
G or Not G
Re: G or Not G
Traveller Music

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:49:20 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: New TNE Skills

Once again, for immediate feedback.  While these are TNE skills, they
most certainly could be adapted to T4 as well.  Your comments should
come back to me directly, or can be posted on the mailing list.

Fishing (Explore--INT): Ability to catch aquatic lifeforms, using hook
and line, traps, nets, or other similar devices.  Catching fish (or
alien equivalent) without adequate equipment is normally a Difficult
task.  Catching fish with adequate equipment is normally an Average
task.  Fabricating proper fishing equipment is an Average task, provided
proper supplies are available.  The referee should adjust the difficulty
of these tasks according to the size and orneriness of the aquatic
lifeforms the fisher is attempting to catch.

Gunsmith (Technician-AGL): Ability to construct, modify, and repair
small arms.  Gunsmith is a cascade skill, which breaks down according to
type as follows: Archaic Firearms (which includes all black powder
firearms, and crossbows), CPR Firearms (which includes all firearms
which use a conventional fixed cartridge consisting of a bullet(s),
propellant, and a primer), Gauss Weapons, Laser Weapons, and High-Energy
Weapons (which includes both plasma and fusion weapons).

   The difficulty of Gunsmith tasks varies greatly with the task the
character is trying to accomplish, and what tools the character may or
may not have at hand.  Most normal tasks (fitting and sighting in a
telescopic sight, reloading CPR Firearm rounds) are Average with the
proper equipment.  Some tasks, like constructing an improvised CPR
Firearm (aka "zip gun") or making adjustments to the internal ignition
lasers on a plasma rifle are normally Average tasks, but become
Difficult, Uncertain tasks with potentially fatal results if not perform
the proper tools.  In all cases, the referee should carefully evaluate
what task the player wants his character to perform, and advise against
particularly risky actions ("mounting that on your gauss pistol is
probably not a good idea").  

Scrounging (Explore-INT): The character is skilled in finding relic
items such as spare parts, vac suits, weapons, etc.  Scrounging involves
more than just randomly searching through ruins.  An individual with
this skill is familiar with the kinds of ruins to search for a
particular relic item and where within those ruins that item is most
likely to be found.  In the case of a previously contacted inhabited
world, the individual will have knowledge of the proper inhabitants to
contact regarding the availability of relics, local laws governing their
sale and possession, and be aware of specific areas on the planet where
relics are most likely to be found.  When a character attempts to
scrounge for a specific object, the referee determines difficulty based
on his or her opinion of the likelihood the object is where the
character is looking.  The higher a character's Scrounging skill, the
more likely he is to find useful things in unlikely places.

Scuba (Explore--CON): Ability to use an aqualung, rebreather, artificial
gill, or other devices that enable an air breathing individual to obtain
necessary oxygen underwater.  This skill may not be acquired at a higher
level than the character's Swimming skill.

Security (Perception-INT): The individual is knowledgeable in the area
of security procedures.  It is broken into two cascades: Physical
Security and Anti-Terrorism.  
   Physical Security reflects a familiarity with the proper use and
placement of a variety of physical security devices, including
mechanical and electronic locks, alarm systems, and a wide spectrum of
sensors, including infrared sensors and cameras.  While it is the job of
experts in this skill to prevent break-ins (usually by individuals with
Intrusion skill), their special knowledge can be of great assistance to
someone attempting defeat a physical security system.
   Anti-terrorism covers a broad spectrum of security procedures
designed to deter terrorism and other similar criminal behavior.  These
include the proper deployment and use of scanning equipment (bomb and
weapon detectors), "hands on" physical search techniques, correct
procedures for establishing security patrols and escorts, check points,
motorcades, and convoys.

- --h

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 23:14:41 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: More Age of Sail, discussion

On 01/27/97 at 01:12 PM,  "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
said:

> Well, the "Vision" I always had for Traveller space combat (from CT
> primarily) was more of the Napoleanic model.  

I like the way you think.

> With the exception of spinal mounts (of which only one exists on each
> ship[in CT]),  armament is in large banks of identical weapons fired in
> unison.  

Maybe we have too many choices for our major ship weapons.  From 1650 to
1820, there wasn't much change in the cannon on ships, and the cannon on a
merchantman was pretty much the same cannon as on a ship of the line. 
There wasn't much difference in range or hitting power.   

> In CT as in the Napoleanic Era, to fight a vastly superior
> opponent was simply to waste your men's lives (usually).  In WWI and
> WWII, on the other hand, a destroyer was a valid (though unlikely) threat
> to a BB.  and a submarine was even worse, in spite of on occassion being
> a small fraction of the size of their victim.

Well, I don't know about the destroyer.  A squadron of destroyers could try
to get into torpedo range, but the 5-in guns on destroyers couldn't dent a
BB's hull.  The 8-in guns of a cruiser weren't a threat either.  

In the 17th & 18th centuries ship handling and gunnery skills played a
bigger part in combat than it does now, and inferior forces *could* prevail
through skillful maneuver and accurate gunnery.  The fat merchantman
couldn't outrun or outgun a corsair in a stand-up fight, but a good gunner
*might* take out the corsair's main mast, and a good sail master *might* be
able to keep the corsair at bay until night and the chance to slip away.

If we want *this* feel, then not only the combat systems, but the
technologies need to support it.  Not only support it, but make it the
optimal solution for designers and players.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:34:03 -0800
From: nrunner@ix.netcom.com (Archie T.)
Subject: White dwarfs and planets

3 planets! A plusar is just a fast spinning neutron star: the planets 
may be actual earth-sized planets, either originally so or cores of gas 
giants with the H2+He shells 'blown'away from the blast. Note, this is 
the only way for a natural planet to be greter than size A. at 3 earth 
masses, im thinking.......size 'F'? ill email the system graphic to 
anone who asks. nrunner@ix.netcom.com   archie
- -- 
_____________________________________________________________________
Copywight - 1994 Elmer Fudd ink.  All wights wesewved.                                            

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 06:20:55 GMT
From: sdollar@goodnet.com (Stuart L. Dollar)
Subject: Classic Traveller Auction #7

A friend of mine has the following Classic Traveller Items available
for Auction:

1) Traveller Boxed Set:
Books 1-3
1st Edition (1977), 5th Printing
Very Good Condition

$25:  34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu
$20:  ross@ican.net

2) Traveller Boxed Set
Books 1-3
1st Edition (1977), 9th Printing
Very Good

$25:  ross@ican.net

3) Book 4, Mercenary
1st Edition (1978), 2nd Printing
Very Good
There are 2 copies of this one, in very similar condition.
(Collectors:  For those of you who are unaware, this printing had a
distinctive yellow stripe, instead of the burnt orange/brown of later
printings)

$15:  dmalnati@usa.net or dmalnati@absi.com
$10:  kieschef@cowen.com
$5:  34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu

4) Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society #6
Very Good

$5:  caw@wizard.net/caw@intercon.com/chrisweuve@usa.net 


Here are the rules for the auction:

1)  The first phase of the auction will run from today, Monday,
January 20, 1997 through 1200 AM, MST, February 3, 1997.  

At the end of the first phase of bidding, the top 2 bidders (3 in the
case of Mercenary) will be notified by e-mail to submit a final bid.
They will have until 1200 AM, MST, February 7, 1997 to submit the
final bid.  Winning bidders will be the person who bids highest.  He
will pay $1 more than the next highest bid regardless of what he bid.
For example:

Bidder A bids $17
Bidder B bids $14
Bidder A wins the item and pays $15 ($14+$1)

2)  Bid prices do not include shipping

3)  Minimum Bid increments are $1

4)  Payment will be taken by check or money order in US$ only.
Payment by check will require a 2 week holding period for the check to
clear.  Money orders will be shipped the following day.

5) Bids will be accepted by e-mail only to:
sdollar@goodnet.com

6) Updates to the auction will be posted daily to USENet and the list.

7) Please indicate which copy of the Traveller Boxed Set you are
bidding on.

Thanks,
Stu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:38:19 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: reading matter

The _Exordium_ novels by Dave Trowbridge and Sherwood Smith.

Also by Debra Doyle and a co-author I do not recall; The "Mageworld" series 
which begins with _The Price of the Stars_.

This series gives a kind of magical twist to Psionics yet I found things in 
it I liked and will use with Traveller Psionics. Also jump space 
descriptions are as close to Traveller as I have found in a recent novel.

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end

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 03:26:31 -0500
From: "Bill Beane" <concord-tech@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?

Vilani Names

Common Male Names:
Eneri;  Enli;  Ganidiirsi (dim: Gani);  Shannash;  Mazun and Khugi

Common Female Names:
Gamaagin (dim: Gam);  Nashu;  Sharikkamur (dim: Sharik); Iikush and Munush

No common last names are given.....

There is a Vilani consonant and vowel frequency table in JTAS #17 and A
vilani word generation table in MT Vilani and Vargr.....


Hope this helps,

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:55:08 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Tech Level

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> Subject: Re: Tech levels
> 
> Peter Newman suggests that:
> >The Second Empire was TL 12 it just happens that they had a few      > >planetsthat made a few experimental TL 14 Vac Suits.
> 
> My point was that these TL14 Vac Suits are common enough, 1500 years >after the collapse of the Rule of Man, to be sold on the open market on >Sylea. This implies that they have been recovered in significant >quantities. I don't know what the odds are of any one suit surviving >for 1500 years, but they can't be good. If they had been experimental >suits there might be one or two carefully preserved specimens in Sylean >museums, but surely not on the open market.
> 
>       Hans Rancke

	Why not ?  1500 year old artifacts are sold every week of every year
right here & now on Earth (at auction at fine Antiques places), they
just cost an arm & a leg.	If we are still selling 2000 year old TL 2
Roman artifacts that have been stored in atmosphere all this time, why
can't the Syleans be selling the far better made Tl 12 or Tl 14 space
suits (many of which were probably stored in space).

	When I said that the suits were experimental I was thinking that
perhaps 1 in 10,000 (0.01 %) of all Second Empire spacesuits were made
at TL 14.  The third Imperium had a population (circa 1100) of about 11
trillion people (1.1 x 10^13), I have never seen population data on the
First or Second Imperium but I am going to assume that their population
was at least 1 trillion (1 x 10^12). If 2% of these people had Vac Suits
this is 20 billion (1 x 10^10) suits.  If 1 in 10,000 of these suits was
Tl 14 that makes 2 million (2,000,000) Tl 14 Vac Suits. If 0.5% of these
suits survived that makes 10,000 suits surviving.  The Second Empire
covered an area about equal to 250 full subsectors & if the suits were
randomly spread out this would make about 40 suits per subsector.  If
50% of these were sold every century this would mean that 1 suit was
sold every 5 years in the Sylean subsector alone & if suits were
imported from other subsectors they would sell even faster.

	Now one sale every few years may not seem like a lot BUT if the suits
are expensive enough this may enough to establish a market.   Original
works of art are (by definition) unique but they sell all the time (they
just cost millions), maybe the market for TL 14 Vac Suits is similar.

	Or we could just make the simple assumption that 1 medium size ship
whose crew were all issued TL 14 suits was recently (within 50 years)
found (maybe in a deep cometary orbit) around some nearby planet.  As a
matter of fact I am tempted to do a write up for JTAS describing this
type of situation...

	TL 14 Vac Suits do fit within the generally Tl 12 background of the
Rule of Man - if you want them to - if you don't want them in YOUR
campaign just ignore them.  Besides the suits can fill the role of a
neat gimmick in a Mileau 0 game while being about 5 orders of
magnitude_less_unbalancing of a campaign then most of the Ancient
Artifacts which turned up in the published CT & MT adventures.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:28:05 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: White dwarf stars

Anders Backman wrote:

>>So when the fuel at the core runs out *this* time, there's nothing to
>>stop the collapse. The core winds up collapsing to a neutron stars and
>>then as it tries to expand again, the outer layers of the star fall in
>>on it and detonate. This *does* make a supernova. And it pretty much
>>wipes out any planets.
>
>The core collapses into a Neutron star if there's sufficient mass, if not
>there'll be a white dwarf instead.

I agree with that point : The mass limit between White dwarf an neutron star
evolution is 1.4 sun masses. Density is around 300kg/cm3 and radius is 1/100
of initial value.

By the way and simply for curiosity, does any one knows the ratio between
the star radius and the supernovae radius?


>>There is evidence that new planets can form from the nebula created by
>>the supernova. But they will be *very* odd...
>
>Those planets might be odd but for beings that live on them they'll look
>completely normal (one example of a race of such beings is the human race).

A Neutron stars are very small, their spin velocity and their magnetic field
is very strong. This focuses high energy particles (I think e- or may be
simply photons). I'm not sure that those planets could accept life because
of radiations. Neutron star seems to be a mega PAWS, doesn't it?


Finally I'm quoting a part of a previous mail from Leonard Erickson, related
to Neutron stars.

>> 3- With a presence of another star, to provide light, which would be the
>> effect of a neutron star in a system (let's say this is a far binary
>> system)? (Pulsar effect?)

>The *strong* magnetic field, which will *not* be aligned with the
>neutron star's rotation, will accelerate particles anywhere near it to
>relativistic velocities, producing *lethal* radiation levels. Also, if
>you are within the magnetic field, it'll induce *massive* currents in
>your ship, quite likely melting or even vaporizing it. 

>>From farther out, the jets of accelerated particles ejected by the
>>neutron star will be quite dangerous. 

>The gas densities in the system will be quite high. Collisions with
>high speed dust and larger particles will be far more frequent than in
>a normal system. And the radiation will be high, partly due to all the
>radioisotopes created in the supernova and scattered thru the system. 

- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:28:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: ttne-spreadsheet update soon available

In mail you write:

>>3. I wanted it to the best fucking spreadsheet I ever created.
>
> Now, that's something I thought no spreadsheet could ever do!

You mean that you've never fucked on a spread sheet before? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:26:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: White dwarf stars

In mail you write:

>>There is evidence that new planets can form from the nebula created by
>>the supernova. But they will be *very* odd...
>
> Those planets might be odd but for beings that live on them they'll look
> completely normal (one example of a race of such beings is the human race).

No, I mean that planets can form orbiting the supernova remnant! One
example is PSR B1257+12. The planets orbiting this pulsar are thought
to have formed from the debris cloud left behind by the supernova.

*Those* will be strange planets!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:06:38 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

On Mon, 27 Jan 97 22:17:28 -0600, eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
did write thusly:

>On 01/27/97 at 09:57 AM,  ccguy@showme.missouri.edu said:

>> It is easy to be blinded by the World Wars into thinking those are the
>> only models. I think the Anglo-Dutch wars of the Seventeenth Century - 
>> perhaps the only purely naval wars in history - might also provide an
>> interesting model. 

>Well, that's 3 of us! <g>

>So, let's talk...during the "age of sail":

>Ships could stay at sea for *long* periods, they were forced into port
>mainly for food and water.

And could during the course of a campaign cross the Atlantic several
times. On its way to Trafalger the French fleet left Brest, sailed to the
West Indies and then back towards the Meditterranian. The very art of
Naval strategy was to guess where the enemy was going.

>Damaged ships could usually be repaired by their crew, even in primitive
>conditions.  Ships carried carpenters, iron mongers, sail makers, and the
>tools they needed to keep a ship in trim.  Heavily damaged ships could
>sail...or be towed to most any port where it could be repaired.

Ships could reprovision and repair without any shore facilities, all that
was need was fresh water, some food and good strong tall trees. There
was great resistance to the introduction of steam because of the cost
of building the neccessary shore facilities to support world wide
deployment.

>Weapons for almost *all* ships, from lowly merchantman to mighty SOL, had
>about the same range and did about the same amount of damage.  The SOL just
>had *lots* more of them.  Hitting at range was *heavily* dependent on
>gunnery skill.

One word (said with a look of manical glee) "Cannonade". The
18th and 19th C fusion gun :*).

>Warships could take lots of punishment.  You could pound holes in the
>wooden hull, wreak the masts and sails, sweep the decks killing crew,
>silence the cannon, and the ship would still be afloat.

Ships which were sunk in battle were usually sunk by either catastrophic
explosion or fire. Other than that, all you could really do was scrape the
guns off, kill the crew or wreck the sails (sound familiar?)

>Most losing ships ended up being captured along with most of their crews,
>not being destroyed.  The captured ships ended up refitted, renamed, and in
>the navy of the other side.

Boarding actions were a ***major*** factor in naval combat. (Just why
does your Free Trader have all those Cutlasses strapped to the
bulkheads?)

>Ships could be sighted at much longer ranges than you could shoot at them,
>and long stern chases were common.  Speaking of speed, all ships were
>within a few knots of each other, so ships and fleets could often simply
>attempt to refuse battle by sailing off and losing themselves in the night,
>the fog, the distance.

>The ship's maneuverability was important in single combat, and was
>*heavily* dependent on the skill of the crew and sailing master. Before and
>during combat ships maneuvered to achieve an advantage, mainly to be able
>to cross the other ship's bow or stern (crossing the T), or to gain the
>"weather gauge" (get the wind so they could sail away from the opponent).

Um, the 'weather gauge' was getting up wind so you could bear down on
the enemy, it made it harder to run away; the French through out the period
traditionally refused the weather gauge.

>Individual ship maneuverability was less important in fleet actions. They
>combat consisted of long formal lines of ships sailing in line, so as to
>maximize broadside firepower and minimize the chance of the other side
>being able to defeat you piecemeal.  Most battles didn't destroy entire
>fleets, when one side saw it was going to get whipped it would break off,
>and usually could sail away.

>Most combat seemed to take place near ports, not on the open ocean. Colony
>ports on strategic islands were often captured and lost a dozen times
>during a war.

>What else?

A long period of stable technology with ship design fixed and altering only in
detail.  Which combined with ships of this eras basic durability, lead to
extremely long life for warships (100+ years).

The vast bulk of the SoL's laid up in reserve during peace.

The vital role of the cruising ships (frigates and sloops)

Ships on the high seas are virtually immune to detection and
therefore attack, as well as being totally isolated (very similiar
to being in jump space).

Vast lattitude for 'minor' ecentricities on the part of senior officers.
Very harsh disipline for the rank and file. Seperation of combat
command functions (the Captain, a career officer) and day to
day running of the ship (the Master, a senior ranker who had
worked his way up). Extremely 'honourable' code of behavour
and respect for your enemy (defeated captains entertained in
the victors mess).

You've also got piracy and letters of marque, features absent
after this period.

>How does all this compare to the environment and the kind of
>technology we have to deal with in the Traveller universe.

Strategically I think its very similar. Its not as close tactically,
but still close enough to draw parallels; and its a damn sight
mor fun too.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
     "It was horrible said S.D. Murphy a witness"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 02:27:37 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Common Villani names ?

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?
> 
>  Rich Ostorero wrote:
> 
> >This is a very good question. I can only come up with one: the
> >food-processor guys (Shugilli) would, in something of the same       > >tradition of us terrans using occupational names like, uhm, "Miller." > >I wonder if this is a play on MWM's name . . . .
> 
> Marc you devious......  it took us nearly 20 years to make this >connection?

	You mean that it was not instantly (ie less than 0.1 second) obvious to
you the very first time you saw it ?  

(sarcasm mode on) You Sir are not a true Traveller fan ! (sarcasm mode
off) :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:21:19 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: G or Not G

I have a question about G forces in Traveller.

The discussions going on about the max G forces allowed in ship design,
seems a little pointless if you don't know what G means.

Is G taken as the force on a body relative to the surface of Terra, or the
Surface of what ever body is causing the Gravity well.

cos' if its from Terra, then the relative speed of G6 from a body the size
of Jupiter would be about 1000 times slower, where as G6 from Lunar would
be 5 times what it is from Terra,

If on the other hand it is from the nearest body then From Jupiter about
100th of a G would kill a Human.

The point of this is that if you are in interstellar or even inter system
space the gravitational forces on you are variable upon distance from
celestial bodies and therefore talking about 6G is really a waste of time,
especially since if you are having ship combat mid system and you hit 6g
you are probably a couple of light days/months/years from where you wanted
to be or as the Hitchhikers Guide says moves like a fish, steers like a cow.

I'm not a tech hed, but this seems logical to me captain's.

Spooook



Colin Hollands	
Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
MIS Europe & Africa Region
Phone:	0171 413 3413
Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:37:02 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: G or Not G

Colin Hollands wrote:
> 
> I have a question about G forces in Traveller.
> 
> The discussions going on about the max G forces allowed in ship design,
> seems a little pointless if you don't know what G means.
> 
> Is G taken as the force on a body relative to the surface of Terra, or the
> Surface of what ever body is causing the Gravity well.
> 

G is an acceleration value. If a body accelerates with 10m/s, then this
is 1G. It is always 1G. This is how I understand it -- well and it's
some time ago (bout 12 years) since I've learnt it at school.

CyA
Buddy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:52:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Traveller Music

From The Commander
pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!)

This is a quote:
>Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 23:23:50 -0500
>From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
>Subject: Traveller Music

>Just a quick note (hopefully, one that will stimulate discussion).  I 
picked up
>a copy of _Symphonic Suite Yamato_ on my travels.  This CD contains 
orchestral
>versions of the background music from Space Cruiser Yamato (aka 
Starblazers).
>Some of it makes pretty good Traveller mood music.

>Another of my favorite albums for this purpose is _Bandwidth_, from Atomic
>City and Team Metlay.  Some real dinosaurs here on the TML might recognize
>that last name; yes, it's the same person (his _Band of Fire_ 
limited-edition
>CD-single is also excellent).

>Does anyone else have favorite Traveller music?

>wildstar@qrc.com

Well, my favorite Traveller music isn't realy Traveller, unless you consider 
that t was partialy it's inspiration.  That would be all the music done by 
JOhn Williams for Star Wars.  Imagine if you will, dite the hard times MT 
era, you see Emperor Lucan stroll towards the Iridum throne to make a speach 
on "destroying Dulinor" and in the backgound you hear "Imperial March" (Da, 
da, da, da de dum, da de dum!)

Or the Rebel Aliance Anthum done when Norris does a speach in Mora!
(think Arrival Vengence)


I also like to use "cyberpunkish" music for when the pc's enter a tough bar. 
 Efate back in the times i was playing TNE was a "Bladerunner-ish" world in 
my campain, lotas hi tech weapons, some cybernetics, NO LAW!  NIN and German 
Industrial worked well to set the mood of that Harsh little corporate 
dominated world.

Just some of my stuff I like peronaly :)

The Commander.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #892
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 28 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 893



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: G or Not G
Re: TL of 2nd and 3rd Imperium
Re: Tech levels
Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"
shops & Tools (was re: shops)
Re: Common Villani names ?
Re: Traveller Music
Re: G or Not G
"Miller" inside jokes
An Incomplete Message
Re: Supression Fire
Re: More Age of Sail, discussion
Re: pogo sticks
Re: Traveller Starship Combat Card Game?
Re: Traveller Starship Combat Card Game?
Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"
Re: G or Not G
Re: New TNE Skills

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 14:22 GMT
From: walker@esc.cam.ac.uk (Greg Walker)
Subject: Re: G or Not G

probably a confusion with the american use of G  ;)
g (lower case!) is the 10m/s/s of Terra
whilst G is the gravitational constant
but most people talk of acceleration in G's, meaning units of 10m/s/s

the value of g does not vary with the planet you are nearby

I only came in at TNE, so I have no idea what the thruster plates do with different gravity wells.

1 g-turn is a velocity of 60000kmph, or 0.1 light seconds every half hour.
from the sun to the earth is 5 light _minutes_, or 125 days for 1 g-turn used, 62 for 2 g-turns. space is BIG.

here is a similair question - the Regency handbook describes the rape of Trin, and how forces were diverted from gas giants to a planet to try and prevent the virus ship from refueling. How do you cross a system that quickly? I guess it only takes a day or two to land, scoop, and refuel enough to jump out.
G

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:45:36 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: TL of 2nd and 3rd Imperium

Robert Flammang writes:
>Hmm. Trav has always had a special knack for making assertions about its
>own universe (like tidbits about the Droyne, Zhodani, and Aslan) which
>slowly but surely get contradicted by later evidence. IMHO, this is THE
>aspect of Trav which makes it so special. Nothing is certain; question
>everything; keep an open mind.

But there are two kinds of mistakes: Those that are reasonable and those that
are not. That Imperials believe some thing about the Zhodani that turns out
not to be the case, is one kind; but saying that the Rule of Man only reached
TL 12 when it actually reached TL 14 is another. In one case the evidence is
missing or it is plausible that it was ignored; in the other the evidence 
would be much too widespread to miss. Usually the trouble is not with a
single fact, but with the ramifications of that fact. For example, the
problem with having four _Kinunir_ class cruisers be a significan slice of
the Regina Subsector forces is not with the cruisers themselves, but with
what it implies about overall Imperial strength levels and, through that,
the Imperial tax base (Hint: You need a lot fewer people than 15 trillion to
pay for four 1200 T ships per subsector). OTOH until the Zhodani refrained
from attacking the Domain during the Rebellion, the ramifications of them
_being_ evil bastards and of the Imperials just _believing_ that they were
evil bastards were precisely the same.

(Also there is two kinds of information: Referee info and Player info. Player
info should be what is generally believed while Referee info should, IMO, be 
"true". I'll grant you that it is not always easy to determine just what is
what.)

>As I recall, very litte was said about about past TL's in CT. MT, with its 
>love for endless detail, said more than made sense about TL's and just about 
>every other aspect of Trav. When MT came out, its new detail-ridden universe 
>was bound to contradict in at least some respects every detailed campaign 
>already being run by CT refs, as well as CT canon. 

But the fact that MT introduced some wild shoots that ought to be pruned 
does not automatically mean that one should throw out everything that MT 
introduced. IMO only those MT stuff that dosen't make sense should be
corrected. Anything else should be kept. The various TLs reached by the
various civilizations mentioned in _Referee's Companion_, for example, does 
not contradict anything established in CT. So why change it?

>[Various examples deleted].
>
>And other irks and quirks which just didn't make sense. So if MM wants
>to abandon some MT canon which abandoned previous CT canon, I cannot
>fault him for that.

It's one thing if Marc Miller decides that some hitherto canon bits should
be changed. It's another when an author ignores or forgets previous canon
and changes things without even realizing it. I prfectly aware that the 
Traveller Universe is so big by now that mistakes are inevitable (though I 
do think that one could reasonably expect a new Traveller author to be 
required to read the main books of the three previous systems). In any case, 
whether the discrepancy is anyone's fault or not, it ought to be corrected 
(or, ideally, but not always possible, explained in a way that fixes the 
problem). To go from the general to the specific, the suggestion that those 
pesky vac suits came from a single high-tech world fairly close to Sylea is, 
IMO, a pretty decent fix. But that means introducing another fact into the 
canon: the existence of this planet and that it had a thriving trade in vac 
suits (and propably other things) with Sylea shortly before the Long Night.

Opinion alert: In my opinion facts that dosen't contradict previous canon
should not be changed, even by Marc Miller Himself, unless there is an
overwhelmingly good reason for doing so. Not just a good reason; if some 
aspect of the Traveller Universe has been established to be one way, 
changing it just because the new version is slightly better is not worth 
the loss of internal consistency. If, however, said facts are contradicted 
by other facts or if they are so implausible, that the increased 
versimilitude gained by changing them would outweigh the loss of 
consistency, then it is OK. (And who is to be the arbiter of what is 
plausible and what is not? Marc Miller, of course, but I reserve the right 
to have my own opinions on the subject).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:07:25 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Tech levels

Harold D. Hale writes:
>   Not that I agree that the suit should even exist, but assuming such a
>thing were available, I would think that the government would want to
>round up as many as possible for study.  An analysis of the wiring alone
>would would lead to major breakthroughs in the field of Electronics. 

It seems clear to me from the Traveller history that tech advancement does
_not_ proceed the way it does on Earth today when you reach higher TLs.
The Imperium is in contact with a former TL 16 civilization (The Darrians)
no later than 148 (much earlier, IMO, but that controversial), yet it 
dosen't reach TL 13 till 300, TL 14 till 700 and TL 15 till 1000. And it's
not _just_ lack of the industry to build the things, though that is no
doubt one of the reasons (My personal take on planetary TLs is that it 
denotes the TL that 90% or more of its population enjoy; the TL of an
interstellar civilization would then be the highest TL of its major
planets). Even in 1100 there are things about the Darrian TL 16 artifacts
that just isn't understood.

Besides, I'd expect Sylea at least to be such an economic powerhouse that
it would be able to produce anything they could understand fairly soon
afterwards, which implies to me that Sylea's _knowledge_ TL dosen't
precede it's _achievement_ TL by more than a generation at most. YMMW.

Oh, and do we really want Sylea to be able to build a few TL 14 couriers
in Year 0? I mean, even if they can't build enough for everybody, surely the
government would spring for pretty inflated costs for a couple of dozens 
jump-5 couriers if they could?

>Thus, it is unlikely that such suits would be available on the open market.  

Once the government has had a few of those vac suits analyzed and realized 
that the can't duplicate them, the rest may well be allowed to go to the 
open market. Of course, this presupposes that there are many more available...

>Also, let me get this straight--people are willing to trust their lives to 
>equipment that is over 1,000 years old?  Granted, at TL 14 seals are made 
>of better, longer lasting stuff, but they would hold up for that long?(!)  
>If you were to buy such a suit (again, assuming it were available as 
>described), it would be like owning a bottle of wine corked in 1697--you 
>don't intend to ever use (drink) it, but it makes a lovely conversation 
>piece in the den.

I agree with you 100% on this.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:07:22 -0600 (CST)
From: ccguy@showme.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

Well, there were a lot of variations over the course of several centuries,
but most of Eris' thoughts hold true.

Guy

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 01/27/97 at 09:57 AM,  ccguy@showme.missouri.edu said:
> 
> Well, that's 3 of us! <g>  
> 
> So, let's talk...during the "age of sail":
> 
> Ships could stay at sea for *long* periods, they were forced into port
> mainly for food and water.
> 
> Damaged ships could usually be repaired by their crew, even in primitive
> conditions.  Ships carried carpenters, iron mongers, sail makers, and the
> tools they needed to keep a ship in trim.  Heavily damaged ships could
> sail...or be towed to most any port where it could be repaired.

Heavily damaged ships in Traveller might be in a far worse plight, but 
the rest does sound like Traveller - a lot of things can be jury riggged.

> 
> Weapons for almost *all* ships, from lowly merchantman to mighty SOL, had
> about the same range and did about the same amount of damage.  The SOL just
> had *lots* more of them.  Hitting at range was *heavily* dependent on
> gunnery skill.

Yes, but size of guns could make a big differnce. Actually, most SOL
actions in the Nelsonic period were fought up close - range was less
important than volume of fire. On the other hand, going back to the 
sixteenth century, the ability of the Venetians and the Knights of Malta
to hit at extreme range with the guns in their galleys was vital to 
their survival and their tactics. Listening to some of the discussions 
here, it seems to me that the old debate between firepower and boarding
enthusiasts continues in Traveller. 

> 
> Warships could take lots of punishment.  You could pound holes in the
> wooden hull, wreak the masts and sails, sweep the decks killing crew,
> silence the cannon, and the ship would still be afloat.  
> 
> Most losing ships ended up being captured along with most of their crews,
> not being destroyed.  The captured ships ended up refitted, renamed, and in
> the navy of the other side.
> 
Crews were highly heterogenous, as they often are in Traveller.


> Ships could be sighted at much longer ranges than you could shoot at them,
> and long stern chases were common.  Speaking of speed, all ships were
> within a few knots of each other, so ships and fleets could often simply
> attempt to refuse battle by sailing off and losing themselves in the night,
> the fog, the distance.
> 
> The ship's maneuverability was important in single combat, and was
> *heavily* dependent on the skill of the crew and sailing master. Before and
> during combat ships maneuvered to achieve an advantage, mainly to be able
> to cross the other ship's bow or stern (crossing the T), or to gain the
> "weather gauge" (get the wind so they could sail away from the opponent).
> 
> Individual ship maneuverability was less important in fleet actions. They
> combat consisted of long formal lines of ships sailing in line, so as to
> maximize broadside firepower and minimize the chance of the other side
> being able to defeat you piecemeal.  Most battles didn't destroy entire
> fleets, when one side saw it was going to get whipped it would break off,
> and usually could sail away.
> 
> Most combat seemed to take place near ports, not on the open ocean. Colony
> ports on strategic islands were often captured and lost a dozen times
> during a war.
> 
It should be hard to find the enemy fleet in Traveller, unless they are
near a port. 


> What else?
> 
> How does all this compare to the environment and the kind of
> technology we have to deal with in the Traveller universe.
> 
> 
> Eris
> -- 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:41:55 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: shops & Tools (was re: shops)

Along the lines of the question about "shops" posted to the GDW-beta list,
I would like a bit of fleshing out on what's found in a typical engineers
toolbox.

I'll start out with some of my own ideas;

Crystaliron Aligner; TL 13, Cr. 120,000, 24Kg
	This device is a large, handheld fusing and unfusing tool which
bonds two pieces of crystaliron by aligning their crystalline structure in
concert.  It uses a combination of high-intensity magnetic and gravitic
fields, and an electric current to polarize (or depolarize) the
crystalline molecules at the edge of a prefabricated sheet of crystaliron.
	Power is supplied by a standard power adapter and cord which must
be attached to any 10Mw or higher power source to operate.
	This device can only bond at the edges of a manufactured piece of
crystaliron, since the forces used to make the sheets is much greater than
can be projected through a handheld unit.  Bonds created by the unit can
be unbonded by the unit as well.

Crystaliron Cutter; TL13, Cr 220,000, 310 Kg
	A mounted piece of equipment found in many machine shops, the
crystaliron cutter is the equivalent of a band saw for crystaliron.  It
may use either a focussed laser, or a superdense cutting blade (at TL14)
to slice large pieces into smaller pieces.
	The model priced here is intended to be able to make straight or
curved cuts on relatively small pieces of material.

Structural Analysis Scanner;  TL10 - 15, Cr 12,000  (+1000/TL over 10),
12Kg
	This handheld unit with integral power supply (Per TL; batteries
or fuel cells?) uses sonics and low power radar emissions to probe the
interior of almost any enclosed structure.  A specialized computer
analyzes the signals and displays a schematic of the object.  Resolution
at TL10 is adequate to detect fractures and other details of more than 1mm
to a depth of 5cm of steel.  The sensing probe must touch the surface 
of the item being probed.  Other sensors are added or improved at higher
TLs so that;
At TL11  Detection size .5mm, Depth 10cm
At TL12  Detection Size .2mm, Depth 20cm
At TL13  Detection Size .1mm, Dpeth 40cm
At TL14  Detection Size .05mm, Depth 80cm
At TL15  Detection Size .01mm, Depth 160cm (1.6m)
Use toughness factor to figure out penetration of other materials (divide
penetration by toughness).

Note that this sensor is specialized to detect microfractures and
weaknesses, particularly in fusion chamber walls and conduits, or ship
hulls.  Similar sensors are in use for specific purposes, such as scanning
for voids in thicknesses of materials, finding defects in crystals,
determining whether bones are broken in the sick bay or field.
[editor's note; if you believe Megatraveller, densitometers make this
thing silly. I never like densitometers, so I rejected tham, as TNE and T4
did after me.  This is a more reasonable version of a densitometer]

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:02:04 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Common Villani names ?

At 02:27 AM 1/28/97 -0900, you wrote:
>> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>> Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?
>>  Rich Ostorero wrote:
>> 
>> >This is a very good question. I can only come up with one: the
>> >food-processor guys (Shugilli) would, in something of the same       >
>tradition of us terrans using occupational names like, uhm, "Miller." > >I
wonder if this is a play on MWM's name . . . .
>> 
>> Marc you devious......  it took us nearly 20 years to make this >connection?
>
>	You mean that it was not instantly (ie less than 0.1 second) obvious to
>you the very first time you saw it ?  
>
>(sarcasm mode on) You Sir are not a true Traveller fan ! (sarcasm mode
>off) :)
>
Doug sits stunned in front of the computer.. his life has ended.. no longer
a Traveller Guru.  Slowly he gathers the books, maps, and notes that have
defined twenty years of Traveller playing, and donates them to an orphanage.

Then, dressed in sackcloth, ringing a bell to warn passers-by of his status
as a gaming leper, he comes to the store..

"Ummm... where do you keep the.. A.. AA... AD&D?"

Welcome to Gamer Hell.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:19:59 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller Music

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> Does anyone else have favorite Traveller music?

Hard, Driving Technopop;  Cibo Matto, P.J. Harvey
Cibo Matto is very very odd and good for that 'alien' feeling.  Harvey has
a lot of almost subliminal base lines that are neat as background.

Industrial Music; **Depeche Mode**, New Order
Depeche mode is the best traveller music I've heard.  It's almost all
synthesizer, giving it a futuristic feel, the lyrics are relatively quiet,
and of plot-usable themes, the beat is fast, without being loud or
driving.

Background; Alanis Morisette, Tori Amos, Peter Gabriel (older stuff and
the Birdie soundtrack esp.), occassionally a disc of Star Trek themes,
once the "Hello Dolly" soundtrack (don't ask).  Occassionally a plot
specific piece of music (theme from Ponderosa would be this weeks choice).
Annie Lenox, Eurythmics, "Boys on The Side" Soundtrack. 

Combat; Sisters of Mercy, Shubert (not my idea), Melissa Etheridge,
Wagner (you can guess what piece), Holst; "The Planets".

Always I put three discs (the capacity of my CD player) in and randomize;
I dont need to touch it again for three hours.  

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:12:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: G or Not G

On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Colin Hollands wrote:

> I have a question about G forces in Traveller.
> 
> The discussions going on about the max G forces allowed in ship design,
> seems a little pointless if you don't know what G means.
> 
> Is G taken as the force on a body relative to the surface of Terra, or the
> Surface of what ever body is causing the Gravity well.
> 
> cos' if its from Terra, then the relative speed of G6 from a body the size
> of Jupiter would be about 1000 times slower, where as G6 from Lunar would
> be 5 times what it is from Terra,
> 

Ok, Colin,

What we're talking about here as G-forces is acceleration, not
gravitational pull. 1 G is the effect of acceleration at a speed of 9.smrf
mumble (can't rememebr it right now) meters per second squared. It is a
defined constant equal to the nominal gravitational pull at Terra's
surface.  It has nothing to do with the gravitational attraction of bodies
in space, which is what you're talking about. 

We use the same units, because thanks to good ol' Albert, we know the
force due to acceleration on a body is indistinguishable in that body's
reference frame from the force due to gravitational attraction. That means
if you're in a six Gee field, it doesn't matter if you're standing 'still'
on a really big planet, or are in your Famille Spofulam KillMyself hot rod
Grav bike going way over the speed limit, the force exerted upon you (and
your surrounding reference frame) are the same.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:40:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: "Miller" inside jokes

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>>This is a very good question. I can only come up with one: the
>>food-processor guys (Shugilli) would, in something of the same tradition
>>of us terrans using occupational names like, uhm, "Miller." I wonder if
>>this is a play on MWM's name . . . .
>
>Marc you devious......  it took us nearly 20 years to make this connection?

Hey, this was a traditional inside joke in the old alien modules.  There
was a Zhodani sample name built from a root that supposedly meant something
like "to grind grain".  :)

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:33:16 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: An Incomplete Message

Due to a slight typographical error (or, perhaps, mild Virus
infection of my terminal) I posted a very incomplete message
regarding the Age of Sail.  My apologies to all.
                                                      - J. R.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 18:04 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Supression Fire

In-Reply-To: <19970124.112747.10334.3.KappaABZ@juno.com>

<< When a shot is heard (as in from a sniper), you either:
Drop where you are and find cover
Run like hell until you find cover (of course only staying up for 3
seconds at a time)
or start unloading everything you have in the general area you believe
the sniper to be in (this is really only effective at squad and platoon
level). >>

Not forgetting:

d) fall over and bleed a lot...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:24:50 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: More Age of Sail, discussion

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Maybe we have too many choices for our major ship weapons.  From 1650 to
> 1820, there wasn't much change in the cannon on ships, and the cannon on a
> merchantman was pretty much the same cannon as on a ship of the line. 
> There wasn't much difference in range or hitting power.   

That's basically true, although towards the end of the 18th century, a
stubbed, wide-mouthed can
 
> > In CT as in the Napoleanic Era, to fight a vastly superior
> > opponent was simply to waste your men's lives (usually).  In WWI and
> > WWII, on the other hand, a destroyer was a valid (though unlikely) threat
> > to a BB.  and a submarine was even worse, in spite of on occassion being
> > a small fraction of the size of their victim.
> 
> Well, I don't know about the destroyer.  A squadron of destroyers could try
> to get into torpedo range, but the 5-in guns on destroyers couldn't dent a
> BB's hull.  The 8-in guns of a cruiser weren't a threat either.  
> 
> In the 17th & 18th centuries ship handling and gunnery skills played a
> bigger part in combat than it does now, and inferior forces *could* prevail
> through skillful maneuver and accurate gunnery.  The fat merchantman
> couldn't outrun or outgun a corsair in a stand-up fight, but a good gunner
> *might* take out the corsair's main mast, and a good sail master *might* be
> able to keep the corsair at bay until night and the chance to slip away.
> 
> If we want *this* feel, then not only the combat systems, but the
> technologies need to support it.  Not only support it, but make it the
> optimal solution for designers and players.
> 
> 
> Eris
> -- 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: pogo sticks

In-Reply-To: <970125.055653.4Z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

<< In the same vein, back in the early 60s, "You Asked For It" showed a
set of gasoline powered roller skates. The motor was worn as a
backpack, and a drive cable carried the power to one of the skates. >>

I saw a more modern version on TV a few years ago.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 18:05 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Traveller Starship Combat Card Game?

In-Reply-To: <32EC39CA.3DD7@texas.net>

<< Big secret Dave, I have been doing superb renders of Traveller starships
for a long time.  I've been working loosly with DGP.  The art, if
desired by someone willing to produce it, is not a problem.  It is done
by me, and I consider it nearly BAB5 quality. >>

GIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMME!

[drools all over keyboard]

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 18:05 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Traveller Starship Combat Card Game?

In-Reply-To: <32EC21E7.1583@flash.net>

<< > The edge is that these cards would not only be playable as a relatively
> simple card game, but would ALSO have the SSDS stats for use as a
> supplement to the Traveller RPG.  As such they could be used in multiple
> ways, and possibly draw new players in.

Hey, I like this! Back when I was using High Guard, I wrote ship
stats on 3x5 cards for reference during combat, making it easier and
faster to run. The cards described above, *if done properly*, could be
used in such a role, as well as trying to tap into the card-trading
market.

IMO, these cards should include detailed Travelleresque external views
of the ship being described on one side with the SSDS stats on the other.
What I'd like to see is a side view with fore and aft views. >>

If done well, this might actually get me to break my vow never to touch a 
CCG with 10' proverbial...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:24:26 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

>One word (said with a look of manical glee) "Cannonade". The
>18th and 19th C fusion gun :*).
"Carronade", actually. The TNE/T4 equivalent is a non-grav X-ray laser,
which is shorter ranged than big lasers but nastier...

>What else?

In space, as in the Age of Sail, it's much easier to cripple a ship than
to sink it - previous iterations of Traveller have actually reflected this
pretty well; laser just punch holes in ships, and ships don't have anything
onboard that will explode (or at least explode with enough force to destroy the
whole ship) - as a result, battles will mostly consist of punching away with
lasers until enough of the target's systems are disabled that it can't fight
any more - remarkably similar to punching away at a wooden ship until most of its
cannons or sails are gone. Disabled ships would strike their colors (surrender);
I tend to use that sort of terminology/behaviour in Traveller as well - and
as a result, surrendering when disabled wouldn't be seen as dishonourable but
would be fairly common...

In another thread people are asking about book recommendations - I would like
to take this opportunity to recommend to *everyone* Patrick O'Brian's
wonderful Aubrey/Maturin series of Napoleonic Naval novels - great source
materials for a naval campaign.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:38:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: G or Not G

Thus spake Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>:

> Colin Hollands wrote:
> > 
> > I have a question about G forces in Traveller.
> > 
> > The discussions going on about the max G forces allowed in ship design,
> > seems a little pointless if you don't know what G means.

> G is an acceleration value. If a body accelerates with 10m/s, then this
> is 1G. It is always 1G. This is how I understand it -- well and it's
> some time ago (bout 12 years) since I've learnt it at school.

Here's the latest from the Nitpick Department:

G is a unit of acceleration, namely 9.8 meters per second per second (or 
- -9.8 m/sec^2, depending on how you're writing the equation), which is the 
force of gravity here on Earth (of course, it's not exact -- the force of 
gravity actually varies from place to place).  An object at rest on Earth 
will be subjected to a constant accelration of 1G towards the planet's 
center.  Without getting into a complicated discussion about the 
relationship between mass and weight, suffice it to say that, when you're 
experiencing 1G, your weight appears to be 'normal.'  If you were to 
experience higher G's, your apparent weight would increase accordingly.

Higher G's are experienced when you suffer any acceleration than that due 
to gravity, such as the 'pressing into the seat' you experience after 
stepping on the gas in your Ferrari and before an irritated policeman 
pulls you over.  The discussions about G-forces during space combat 
primarily have to do with how much additional acceleration (above 1-G) 
that human crews can take over time without suffering ill effects, or 
with the G-forces that starships can take without suffering structural 
damage.

For reference, the human body can take nine positive (downward) G's for 
short periods of time (seconds) provided that the proper conditions are 
met (a pilot in good shape with strong leg muscles wearing a flight suit 
designed to prevent blood pooling) but only two to three negative 
(upward) G's under the same conditions.

Any physics nobs out there will no doubt correct any errors in the above.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:40:03 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Brawley <brawleyj@UWSTOUT.EDU>
Subject: Re: New TNE Skills

>Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:49:20 -0500
>From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
>Subject: Re: New TNE Skills
>
>Once again, for immediate feedback.  While these are TNE skills, they
>most certainly could be adapted to T4 as well.  Your comments should
>come back to me directly, or can be posted on the mailing list.
>
>Fishing (Explore--INT): Ability to catch aquatic lifeforms, using hook
>and line, traps, nets, or other similar devices.  Catching fish (or
>alien equivalent) without adequate equipment is normally a Difficult
>task.  Catching fish with adequate equipment is normally an Average
>task.  Fabricating proper fishing equipment is an Average task, provided
>proper supplies are available.  The referee should adjust the difficulty
>of these tasks according to the size and orneriness of the aquatic
>lifeforms the fisher is attempting to catch.
>

Great skils, but fishing, according to the basic rules (pp. 201) is a part
of Survival.  Unless this is used as a less general type of skill, for
secondary skill and character development purposes.  But In general Survival
is broader and therefore more usefull.  

I also really liked the Gunsmith cascade skill.  But one thought, shouldn't
large caliber CPR guns (mortars, recoiless rifles and howitizers) be another
cascade like Heavy Guns.  Along the same lines, shouldn't Heavy Weapons be a
cascade (for explosive devices like grenades, mines; and missiles like LAW,
tac missiles, unguided artillers rockets, etc.) too.

just an idea.

Jeff

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #893
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 28 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 894



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"
Re: New TNE Skills
[Traveller Answer] Definition of G
Re: Traveller Auction: Update #3
List Activity
Re: [T97#887] Re: Reading Matter
Re: G or Not G
Re: Common Vilani names?
Starship proposal
(no subject)
Traveller on IRC - Design Workshops
Starship proposal
Traveller on IRC - HELP!!!
Re: Traveller Music
Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:35:44 +0000
From: Guy Wilson <ccguy@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

Another carry over from the Age of Sail to the idea of keeping ships in
Traveller small, is that there was a finite limit on size created by the
construction materials - unless you use iron bracing and/or novel
constructional techniques, you can only make a wooden ship so big. This
was one of the reasons ships could serve so long - they were only
getting incrementally bigger, no major jumps in size occured due to
technology until about 1805. 

Guy Wilson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:55:01 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Brawley <brawleyj@UWSTOUT.EDU>
Subject: Re: New TNE Skills

>>Once again, for immediate feedback.  While these are TNE skills, they
>>most certainly could be adapted to T4 as well.  Your comments should
>>come back to me directly, or can be posted on the mailing list.

One more note, also according to the basic rules (pp. 127) the skill
swimming also grants the knowledge and understanding on how UBA's work
(underwater breathing apparatus) work.  New skills are great, but if you
have to spend a slot on every type of ability, ttne character gen. doesn't
give enough slots.  

Making a character that is adept at _something_ should be possible without
too much one dimensioning of skills going on.

Just another idea.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 15:38:40 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: [Traveller Answer] Definition of G

Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com> asks:
> The discussions going on about the max G forces allowed in ship design,
> seems a little pointless if you don't know what G means.

Yes.  G = 10 meters/second*second.

> Is G taken as the force on a body relative to the surface of Terra, or the
> Surface of what ever body is causing the Gravity well.

The Traveller usage of G is as a unit of acelleration, approximately equal to
the surface gravity of Terra.  The surface gravity of Terra is 9.8 meters
per second per second.  Like many Terran-based units (Gs, Seconds, Days,
Hours, Years), this unit was introduced by the Terrans during the Rule of
Man.

In Traveller, 1G is equal to an acelleration of 10 meters per second per
second.  This differs slightly from the nominal Terran standard (for ease
of calculation, and the error is only about 2%).

> The point of this is that if you are in interstellar or even inter system
> space the gravitational forces on you are variable upon distance from
> celestial bodies and therefore talking about 6G is really a waste of time,

No.  In Traveller, 6G _always_ means 60 meters/second*second.  You'd express
the surface gravity of a planet in terms of a standard G (for example, the
surface gravity of Fooworld might be somewhere around 2.5G, and the surface
gravity of Barplanet might be 0.43G).


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:28:16 -0700
From: Sanders <kalin@swlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Auction: Update #3

Here's another stab at a Traveller Auction.

The Auction will run until Feb. 12, 1997.
All bids should be in dollar amounts.
Postage is $2.00 for first item, and .50 cents for each additional item.
Payment should be in either check or money order.
Prompt payment is appreciated.

The following persons bid and did not pay in past auctions, and are not
welcome to bid in this one.

lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
NVDoyle@aol.com
Ted7@world.std.com
Danny_M._Moody@bridge.com

CLASSIC TRAVELLER:
- ------------------

"Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #1: Soldiers of Fortune" (SJG)
 Circa: 1982. Scale: 15mm. Condition: Mint. (Uncut)
 Bid: $4.00 pnewman@alaska.net

"Pilots Guide To The Caledon Subsector" by J. Andrew Keith 
 Circa: 1984. Pages: 74. Condition: Mint. (Bound Manuscript)
 Bid: $12.00 pete@cummings.uchicago.edu

"Imperial Lines #2" (GDW)
 Circa: 1992. Pages: 8. Condition: Mint. (Fanzine)
 Bid: $6.00 scareb@pacbell.net

"Challenge Magazine #25" (GDW)
 Circa: 1986. Pages: 48. Condition: Good.
 Bid: $5.00  beck@mail.all-mail.net

MEGATRAVELLER:
- --------------

"101 Vehicles" (DGP)
 Circa: 1988. Pages: 49. Condition: Good.
 Bid: $10.00 pete@cummings.uchicago.edu

"Travellers' Digest #19" (DGP)
 Circa: 1990. Pages: 56. Condition: Good.
 Bid: $15.00 mitch@intersys.com

"Laboratory Ship - Deckplans" (Seeker)
 Circa: 1989. Scale: 25mm. Condition: Mint. (Shrink Wrapped)
 Bid: $7.00 scareb@pacbell.net

"Subsidized Merchant - Deckplans" (Seeker)
 Circa: 1990. Scale: 25mm. Condition: Mint. (Shrink Wrapped)
 Bid: $7.00 scareb@pacbell.net

TRAVELLER - TNE:
- ----------------

"Clipper Module Weapons Bay" #5819 (RAFM)
 Circa: 199?. Scale: ?. Condition: Mint. (Blister Pack)
 Bid: $3.00 scareb@pacbell.net

"Ship's Boat" #5811 (RAFM)
 Circa: 199?. Scale: ?. Condition: Mint. (Blister Pack)
 Bid: $3.00 scareb@pacbell.net


MISC.:
- ------

"The Praesidium Of Archive" by Jefferson Swycaffer (Avon)
 Circa: 1986. Pages: 196. Condition: Fine. (Traveller Inspired Novel)
 Bid: $5.00 scareb@pacbell.net

"SpaceGamer Magazine #15" (Metagaming)
 Circa: 1978. Pages: 31. Condition: Good. (Article: "Robotics In Traveller")
 Bid: $4.00 scareb@pacbell.net

"Journeys Magazine #2" (GDW)
 Circa: 1992. Pages: 47. Condition: Fine.
 Bid:

"Sniper! - Special Forces" (SPI)
 Circa: 1992. Pages: Folio. Condition: Good. (Unpunched)
 Bid: $4.00 mitch@intersys.com
- -----

That's it for the present. I will post updates every day or so.

Ad Astra,
Paul

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 17:09:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: List Activity

Just as a bit of trivia that would seem to indicate how much
interest there is in Traveller, especially since T4 came out...

I save the daily list digests on floppy.  Looking back through
my collection, when I first joined, back in the MegaTraveller
era, it was possible to save an entire month's worth of digests,
plus, on a single floppy.  There was no XBoat list at the time.

When GDW collapsed, about a year ago, the list usage wasn't
significantly different (and I'm including XBoat traffic in
that).

Since the announcement and release of T4, the list has been
averaging four to five times the volume of what it had been
prior to the collapse of GDW - I'm averaging one megabyte to one
and one half megabytes per week.

In addition to that, I'm seeing discussion (not a lot, but it's
there) of Traveller on rec.games.frp.misc - and I think I may be
missing some of it; I do a vgrep on subject lines, rather than
letting the computer find them for me, plus, I have suspicions
about the veracity of my provider's feed's statements that my
provider is getting a _complete_ feed.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe that reports of the demise of
Traveller are greatly exaggerated.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  DOS=HIGH?  I knew it was on something...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 17:08:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#887] Re: Reading Matter

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> hath scriven....

T::>That's what my players said about my getting cancer.. darn rude on my part,
 ::>if I do say so my self.  (I pointed out it was a ploy to allow me time to
 ::>sit around and write adventures...)

 Yeah, that's the ticket!  If life hands you lemons, make
 lemonade!

 I hope they can do something positive to you, and wish you the
 best.

T::>"Legacy of Herort" and "Beowulf's Children", -Niven, Pournelle, and Barnes.
 ::>Wonderful novels set on a newly colonized world.. today's lesson is don't
 ::>mess with the ecology.

 The interesting thing is that Pournelle can't write worth a
 damn, and Niven is OK-but-not-fantastic.  Yet the two of them
 together synergize into one of the best writers I've
 encountered.  I'll have to look for these...

T::>Spider Robinson's "Callahan's Place" stories.  Great fun, and your bar
 ::>encounters will never be the same.

 YES!  And that includes the two (three?) Lady Sally's books
 he's done.  A Social Club and Escort Service is a great place
 to meet, as well...

T::>"Flandry" series, -Poul Anderson.  Multiple stories of the ever-resourceful
 ::>agent of the Terran Empire.

T::>"A Fire Upon the Deep", -Vernor Vinge.  This book is beyond description.
 ::>I'm on my second reading, and I'm still in awe.

 I've read his Realtime books, and also True Names.  I'm
 impressed by his ability to draw you into the story.  I'll have
 to look for this one.

T::>"Worldwar!" series, -Harry Turtledove.  what if the aliens invadedduring
 ::>WWII?  three books so far, and it's getting better.

 Four.  He needs to write at least two more sequels that I can
 see, but according to his publisher, he has no plans to do so
 at this time.  I'm going to write some letters, and sign them
 all with different names.

 If every writer was as good as Turtledove, SF wouldn't have
 spend a lot of years in a moribund state, and modern SF
 wouldn't be such trash.

T::>"Retief" series, -Keith Laumer.  some of the best, funniest SF ever.

 My only complaint about this is that he has a bad habit of
 recycling stories - you'll have only about three books worth of
 stories in a collection of five.  N.B. I work for a bureaucracy
 (City of New York - Police Department) - Laumer does _not_
 exaggerate the stupidity of bureaucracies.  Neither did the
 British comedy "Yes, Minister/Yes, Prime Minister".

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  In a nuclear explosion , all men are creamated equally.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:57:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: G or Not G

> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:21:19 +0000
> From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
> 
> I have a question about G forces in Traveller.
> 
> The discussions going on about the max G forces allowed in ship design,
> seems a little pointless if you don't know what G means.

G is used as shorthand for the mean gravitational acceleration at sea
level on Terra, which is about 9.8 m/s^2, or 32 ft/s^2.  By the relation
F=ma, you may translate acceleration into the force applied to a body of
mass m.

> Is G taken as the force on a body relative to the surface of Terra, or the
> Surface of what ever body is causing the Gravity well.

It's critical to realize that G's are measure in units of acceleration
(distance over (time squared)), not force (mass times distance over (time
squared)).  For small objects dropped in a large gravity well (say, a 1
gram BB and a 1 kg brick dropped from a meter above the surface of Terra),
the accelerations are identical (1 G each), but the force on the brick is
1000 times that on the BB.

> cos' if its from Terra, then the relative speed of G6 from a body the size
> of Jupiter would be about 1000 times slower, where as G6 from Lunar would
> be 5 times what it is from Terra,

The phrase "the relative speed of G6" is meaningless; it's an error on
exactly the same level as "the relative distance of 20 km/s."  You're
comparing apples and oranges (or functions and first time derivatives),
which is a losing game.

> If on the other hand it is from the nearest body then From Jupiter about
> 100th of a G would kill a Human.

Somehow, I doubt that 0.23 G (1/100 of 2.3 G, the gravity at Jupiter's
cloudtops) would hurt all that bad. :)

> The point of this is that if you are in interstellar or even inter system
> space the gravitational forces on you are variable upon distance from
> celestial bodies and therefore talking about 6G is really a waste of time,

Hope you now understand that it's a fixed acceleration, hence not a waste
of time.  And, of course, it's purely arbitrary (just like 1 bar is
Earth's mean sea-level atmospheric pressure -- highly terracentric, but
heck, it's convenient for *us*).

> especially since if you are having ship combat mid system and you hit 6g
> you are probably a couple of light days/months/years from where you wanted
> to be or as the Hitchhikers Guide says moves like a fish, steers like a cow.

Getting a light-day off course is quite a trick, even at high acceleration
(assuming you start out more or less at rest, of course).  Realize that
with BL/BR 0.1-light-second hexes, one light day is 864,000 hexes.  Think
about that for a while.  Then realize that a light year at the same scale
is roughly 316 *million* hexes.  Space is *big*.

By the way, just for comparison, on the same BL/BR scale Earth and Luna
are about 12 hexes apart.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:06:34 -0000
From: "Del Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?

In response to Douglas E Berry,

mmm, no wonder the Vilani are so stuck in their ways....
try explaining your new idea when everyone thinks you're
talking about *Bread Puddiing* (Sic.)

Del Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK

- ----------
> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?
> Date: 28 January 1997 03:07
> 
<snip...>
> 
> IIRC, Vilani was a tonal language, with each element
having six different
> tonal varieties.  Thus you get 
> 
> E(2)ne(5)ri(1)= A common man's name vs.
> E(5)ne(6)ri(1)= Bread pudding
> 
> Any attempt at Vilani trnaslation would have to account
for this, plus the
> fact that many terran tonal languages also incorporate
verb form into the
> pitch.  
> 
> --
> +-------------------------------------------------+
> |   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
> |      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
> |         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
> |*************************************************|
> |        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
> |        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
> |                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
> +-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:20:20 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Starship proposal

After studying the T4 starships and working on an extensive Excel
spreadsheet for TNE starship design I have found that both has its
short commings.

Most relating to the UCP setup.

The TNE setup is too detailed and cumbersome at times. And it takes
too much time to set up when it comes to damage location and hit point
calculation.

T4 Lacks information. A TL 15 ship ain't much better than a TL 13 in
combat as most values are "abstracted" A single laser turret usually
end up in the 2-0-0-0 or 2-2-2-2 area. And the TL 15 turret will be
"over powered" as 41% of the effect is lost by the abstraction. And
then we are talking about a 750Mj nongravitic x-ray laser. That's
quite a lot for a small turret. A 250Mj turret would be of the same
use, and that is 33% Mj-vise.

And the notion of a puny UCP 1 laser destroying a maneuver 1 drive
with one shot doesn't wash. Especially if the drive are fitted to
30,000 ton craft.

I would like to see a system where the components has hitpoints as the
lasers and Spinals mounts has them. And a simplified hitlocation
system from the TNE. Not as elaborate as the one in BL but something
similar. Just based on the whole hull. Example:=20
(Values just taken from thin air)



                               Hit loc
Craft Volume    2700    Front    Side    Aft
- -----------------------------------------------
Engineer         800     1-4     1-6    1-8
Environment      200      5       7      9
Weapons          126      6       8      10
Quarters         500     7-11    9-12  11-12
Hold            1000    12-18   13-19  13-19
Electronics       74    19-20     20     20
Antenna Area    200/28%  1-5 on d20
I have taken the percentage of the main section and found how much it
would make out on a D20. I started with the side arc as we asume that
most components would have equal chance to be hit. The I adjusted for
front arc by substracting 2 from the Engineer section and added one to
Quarters and one to electronics. On the aft section I added two and
took two from quarters as electronics should at least have one hit.

When a laser hits check for antenna hits. Antennas should have the sam
number of hit poinst as their surface area. An laser can maximum do 5
points of damage to an antenna, as most antennas would likely surviva
and fuction with a hole in the aperture. However with poorer
resolution. Rest damage is penetrating the hull and doing damage as
usual.

Proposed hitpoint system:
Turrets: 20Hp
Barbettes: 40Hp
Bays: 10 per dt
Staterooms:
 Small  5hp
 Large  7Hp
 Bunk   5Hp
 LowBerth 7Hp
MFD: 15Hp
Other components: Average of Volume and weight/10

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:47:33 -0800
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: (no subject)

If this made it to the list earlier I appologize for posting
again.

Hi just a quick question that came up during the weekend's
session I'm GM'ing.
When a ship exits from jumpspace is there any information
obtainable from the energy discharge it makes? ie when a 
(for instance) Patroling ship insystem detects the energy
discharge can they determine 
- -the size of the ship
- -what direction it jumped in from
- -how far it jumped
also what info if any can be determined when a ship jumps out
Thanks
Dave

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:16:48 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller on IRC - Design Workshops

Greetings!

Design Workshop I - QSDS 101 was a great success!  The turnout was 
not as large as I might have hoped, but Commander X was an 
outstanding teacher and everyone who attended seemed very pleased 
with the class.  Thank you, Commander X for your time and patience!

Design Workshop II - SSDS 101 will be held on Saturday, February 15, 
1997, 8pm EST on the IG IRC server.  Mark your calendars now!

More details will follow.

Suz 

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:20:18 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Starship proposal

After studying the T4 starships and working on an extensive Excel
spreadsheet for TNE starship design I have found that both has its
short commings.

Most relating to the UCP setup.

The TNE setup is too detailed and cumbersome at times. And it takes
too much time to set up when it comes to damage location and hit point
calculation.

T4 Lacks information. A TL 15 ship ain't much better than a TL 13 in
combat as most values are "abstracted" A single laser turret usually
end up in the 2-0-0-0 or 2-2-2-2 area. And the TL 15 turret will be
"over powered" as 41% of the effect is lost by the abstraction. And
then we are talking about a 750Mj nongravitic x-ray laser. That's
quite a lot for a small turret. A 250Mj turret would be of the same
use, and that is 33% Mj-vise.

And the notion of a puny UCP 1 laser destroying a maneuver 1 drive
with one shot doesn't wash. Especially if the drive are fitted to
30,000 ton craft.

I would like to see a system where the components has hitpoints as the
lasers and Spinals mounts has them. And a simplified hitlocation
system from the TNE. Not as elaborate as the one in BL but something
similar. Just based on the whole hull. Example:=20
(Values just taken from thin air)



                               Hit loc
Craft Volume    2700    Front    Side    Aft
- -----------------------------------------------
Engineer         800     1-4     1-6    1-8
Environment      200      5       7      9
Weapons          126      6       8      10
Quarters         500     7-11    9-12  11-12
Hold            1000    12-18   13-19  13-19
Electronics       74    19-20     20     20
Antenna Area    200/28%  1-5 on d20
I have taken the percentage of the main section and found how much it
would make out on a D20. I started with the side arc as we asume that
most components would have equal chance to be hit. The I adjusted for
front arc by substracting 2 from the Engineer section and added one to
Quarters and one to electronics. On the aft section I added two and
took two from quarters as electronics should at least have one hit.

When a laser hits check for antenna hits. Antennas should have the sam
number of hit poinst as their surface area. An laser can maximum do 5
points of damage to an antenna, as most antennas would likely surviva
and fuction with a hole in the aperture. However with poorer
resolution. Rest damage is penetrating the hull and doing damage as
usual.

Proposed hitpoint system:
Turrets: 20Hp
Barbettes: 40Hp
Bays: 10 per dt
Staterooms:
 Small  5hp
 Large  7Hp
 Bunk   5Hp
 LowBerth 7Hp
MFD: 15Hp
Other components: Average of Volume and weight/10

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:30:09 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller on IRC - HELP!!!

Greetings!

It has come to my attention that there are any number of Traveller 
knowledgable people on this list, most of whom have very strong 
opinions and are very happy to share said opinions <G>  Well, I 
happen to be in need of as many of those people as I can get my hands 
on!

Below please find a list of possible topics for #Traveller Thursday 
night discussion.  I think that they are all valid topics, but I am 
not qualified to lead the discussions on most of these topics.  If 
you feel qualified to lead a discussion, please email me with the 
topic of choice, and a choice of dates (Thursdays) that you can be 
prepared to speak.  If you have a contact outside the list that you 
feel is qualified for a topic that is related to the science of today 
that might help add a solid scientific basis to our view of 
Traveller, email me about that, too.  I already have someone working 
on a contact at NASA.

Potential topics:

- -How to create a Traveller adventure
- -Detailing prior service records for PC's
- -Historical Hash: Ideas on Different Eras
- -Anthropology for Travellers:  Interacting with Primitive Societies
- -Minor Human Races:  What do we know/How far can we go?
- -Alternate Biochemistries (any biochemists out there?)
- -Life in the Future - What's existance really like in the world of 
Traveller 
- -The Truth is Out There - conspiracies in Traveller.  What exists and 
what have you invented?

Please feel free to add topics to the list and please, if you feel 
comfortable with a subject, volunteer to join us and talk about it!  
So far, we are pretty informal, and we've all been very polite.  

Contact me at suzd@goodnet.com, or use the email link on the IG 
webpage.

I look forward to seeing more and more of you on IRC!  As always, 
contact me if you need help getting on.

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:11:44 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Music

Derek Wildstar wrote:
> 
> Does anyone else have favorite Traveller music?

I prefer movie soundtracks such as Terminator,
Predator, the theme to "Robin Hood, Prince of
Thieves" (the symphonic rendition), Escape
from New York (Snake Pliskin, the one and only),
and various war flicks.

Traveller is an action game (usually) so I go
with action movies.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:05:42 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> So, let's talk...during the "age of sail":

And you asked for a comparison to Traveller, so...
 
> Ships could stay at sea for *long* periods, they were forced into port
> mainly for food and water.

Not in Traveller. Two weeks max is assumed for the vast majority of
ships.

> Damaged ships could usually be repaired by their crew, even in primitive
> conditions.  Ships carried carpenters, iron mongers, sail makers, and the
> tools they needed to keep a ship in trim.  Heavily damaged ships could
> sail...or be towed to most any port where it could be repaired.

Crews can perform repairs using any parts/tools supplied by the ship.
Heavily damaged ships may not be able to Jump or maneuver and there
have never been any rules published for towing a ship by anything
other than a specialized tug design.
 
> Weapons for almost *all* ships, from lowly merchantman to mighty SOL, had
> about the same range and did about the same amount of damage.  The SOL just
> had *lots* more of them.  Hitting at range was *heavily* dependent on
> gunnery skill.
 
There are definitely differences in weapon performance (i.e. lasers vs.
PAWS vs. Meson guns).

> Warships could take lots of punishment.  You could pound holes in the
> wooden hull, wreak the masts and sails, sweep the decks killing crew,
> silence the cannon, and the ship would still be afloat.

You can do the same to any Traveller ship and it will still float in
space.  ;-)
 
> Most losing ships ended up being captured along with most of their crews,
> not being destroyed.  The captured ships ended up refitted, renamed, and in
> the navy of the other side.

Applicable to Traveller only if you take out the power plant and M-drive
rather quickly.
 
> Ships could be sighted at much longer ranges than you could shoot at them,
> and long stern chases were common.  Speaking of speed, all ships were
> within a few knots of each other, so ships and fleets could often simply
> attempt to refuse battle by sailing off and losing themselves in the night,
> the fog, the distance.

Possible in Traveller if realistic relative velocities are brought into
play and accel is limited to 6Gs.

> The ship's maneuverability was important in single combat, and was
> *heavily* dependent on the skill of the crew and sailing master. Before and
> during combat ships maneuvered to achieve an advantage, mainly to be able
> to cross the other ship's bow or stern (crossing the T), or to gain the
> "weather gauge" (get the wind so they could sail away from the opponent).

The above, AFAIR, was truly applicable only to Brilliant Lances. Systems
like High Guard, QSDS, etc. simply didn't allow for the kind of detail
required for maneuverability being that critical. They certainly weren't
detailed enough for tactic movement to be a consideration.
 
> Individual ship maneuverability was less important in fleet actions. They
> combat consisted of long formal lines of ships sailing in line, so as to
> maximize broadside firepower and minimize the chance of the other side
> being able to defeat you piecemeal.  Most battles didn't destroy entire
> fleets, when one side saw it was going to get whipped it would break off,
> and usually could sail away.

Now this definitely sounds like High Guard. 

> Most combat seemed to take place near ports, not on the open ocean. Colony
> ports on strategic islands were often captured and lost a dozen times
> during a war.

"Ports" would translate to starports or critical star systems. This
was definitely the case during the Frontier Wars and the Rebellion.
 
> What else?

Convoys were actually a viable consideration in BL but not in the more
abstract combat systems. I could have sworn Spain used convoys for
protection from pirates along the Spanish Main. Or was it just for the
trips back to the home country?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #894
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 29 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 895



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: New TNE Skills
Re: More Age of Sail, discussion
Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"
Traveller on IRC
Re: More Age of Sail, discussion
MT Ship Combat
Re: Traveller Music
Book list
CARD GAMES and GEN CON
Re: reading matter
Re: CARD GAMES and GEN CON
Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
Re: Common Vilani names?
Re: Circular PAWS
Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"
Books for inspiration, and Callahans
G or not G update
Re: Traveller reading
Re: Book list

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:17:38 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: New TNE Skills

Harold D. Hale wrote:
> 
> Once again, for immediate feedback.  While these are TNE skills, they
> most certainly could be adapted to T4 as well.  Your comments should
> come back to me directly, or can be posted on the mailing list.

Hi, Harold.

I like the skills selections you've posted but I'm thinking that the
Fishing skill should be cascaded to individual worlds, depending on
the kind of critters you're trying to catch. Each environment could
have radically different creatures which would require skills a
Terran fisherman wouldn't have a clue about.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 20:16:27 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: More Age of Sail, discussion

On 01/28/97 at 12:24 PM,  "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu> said:

> > Maybe we have too many choices for our major ship weapons.  From 1650 to
> > 1820, there wasn't much change in the cannon on ships, and the cannon on a
> > merchantman was pretty much the same cannon as on a ship of the line. 
> > There wasn't much difference in range or hitting power.   

> That's basically true, although towards the end of the 18th century, a
> stubbed, wide-mouthed can

Like those new wide-mouthed beer cans that are being advertised everywhere
right now? <gd&r>

I know what you mean, the carronade...yes? 

The British introduced and had great success with the carronade. It was a
shortrange cannon hurling a 32+ lb ball with much superior smashing power
than the standard 12, 16 or 24 pounders.  It was cheaper and easier to
manufacture than the conventional cannon too.

The British were successful with it as long as their ships had the
advantage in speed and maneuverability.  They used their maneuvering
advantage to get in close and pound their opponents, while avoiding the
long-range fire of their enemies.

In the War of 1812, the Americans used *their* speed and
maneuverability to stay out of range of the British carronades and cut them
up with accurate long-range fire.

I guess the carronade is the fusion gun in Traveller...nice and powerful,
but *very* short ranged.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 20:33:24 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

On 01/28/97 at 10:24 AM,  bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:

> >One word (said with a look of manical glee) "Cannonade". The >18th and
> 19th C fusion gun :*).
> "Carronade", actually. 

I always write cannonade, and then have to go back and change it to
carronade.  Does anyone know why they're called ca_rr_onades?

> The TNE/T4 equivalent is a non-grav X-ray laser,
> which is shorter ranged than big lasers but nastier...

Yeah, I can buy that.  <g> 

The fusion or plasma gun is a more colorful carronade though, and if I
remember ranges right it certainly would shorten, short range.

> In another thread people are asking about book recommendations - I would
> like to take this opportunity to recommend to *everyone* Patrick
> O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey/Maturin series of Napoleonic Naval novels -
> great source materials for a naval campaign.

That's true, they are good books.  Don't forget the old Hornblower books by
Forrester either.

I'll second Weber's, Harrington series too.  Balisk Station has a ripping
good single ship to ship sequence, and Flag in Exile has a good fleet
action for example.  The technology is certainly not Traveller canon:  300
to 500 G acceleration ships; drives use "impeller wedges" (some kind of
gravity thing) that work *partially* in hyperspace; sailing around FTL is
*sailing* on hyperspace currents; fleet battles are between massed and huge
"Ships of the Wall"; and weapons seem to be mainly missles (laser head),
but lasers, grasers, paws, and "grav lances" are also mentioned, but it
fairly consistent.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:21:28 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller on IRC

Greetings!

Thursday night is Traveller night on IRC! 

Topic:  Adventure Beginnings:  Pulling the Group Together
When:  Thursday, January 30, 1997, 8pm EST
Where:  IG's IRC server
             imperiumgames.com
             ports 6665 & 6666

As always, if you need help getting on IRC and/or IG's server, email 
me and I will do everything in my power to help you.

Suz


Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:48:29 -0500
From: Mitchell Schwartz <Ted7@world.std.com>
Subject: Re: More Age of Sail, discussion

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Maybe we have too many choices for our major ship weapons.  From 1650 to
> 1820, there wasn't much change in the cannon on ships, and the cannon on a
> merchantman was pretty much the same cannon as on a ship of the line. 
> There wasn't much difference in range or hitting power.   

For a cannon of size x, that is partially true (improvements in the quality
of gunpowder doubled range; improvements in metallurgy increased the size
and strength of weapons - and in the power they exerted).  However...

o  Warship decks were built strongly to withstand the pounding by many heavy
cannon.  A several-ton cannon (36 lbs weighed a few tons and required a crew
of 8 to man-handle the thing into firing position) firing would tear a more
lightly built merchantman apart after a few rounds.

o  Warship sides were built think to withstand the pounding of enemy
cannonballs.  This (and the guns and enough men and ammo for the guns) left
not much floatation for cargo.

o  Merchantmen hulls were wide (to increase cargo capacity).  While the
difference between 4-6 knots (merchantmen) and 8-12 knots (warships) may not
seem like much, note that this is a difference of 2:1 or 3:1 - similar to
the difference between M1/M2 and M4 ships (old style if these are no longer
used.)
 
Note that the analogy begins to fall apart here for Traveller; the crude
mechanics of th weaponry used no longer has a bearing on vessel speed
(although desired armor level does)

> > In CT as in the Napoleonic Era, to fight a vastly superior
> > opponent was simply to waste your men's lives (usually).  In WWI and
> > WWII, on the other hand, a destroyer was a valid (though unlikely) threat
> > to a BB.  and a submarine was even worse, in spite of on occassion being
> > a small fraction of the size of their victim.
> 
Actually, gunboats existed in the Napoleonic era (and featured highly in US
Naval defense plans!), consisting usually of a specially strengthened rowed
vessel mounting 1 large gun, usually pointing forward.  They were used as a
portable harbor defense battery, and were only dangerous to larger war craft
in harbors and bays where handling larger craft was ungainly or in a lack of
wind.
> 
> In the 17th & 18th centuries ship handling and gunnery skills played a
> bigger part in combat than it does now, and inferior forces *could* prevail
> through skillful maneuver and accurate gunnery.  The fat merchantman
> couldn't outrun or outgun a corsair in a stand-up fight, but a good gunner
> *might* take out the corsair's main mast, and a good sail master *might* be
> able to keep the corsair at bay until night and the chance to slip away.

More likely two swift ships with little difference between them might make a
good race of it - such as a packet and a corsair (both built for speed), or
a merchantman fleeing a merchantman turned privateer. In such cases, being
able to better balance your particular ship in the particular point of the
wind you were sailing in gave you an additional knot or two; having a crew
that could change/reset sail fastest could help.  A general merchantman had
little chance fleeing anything built with speed, rather than ladening, in mind.

Gunnery skills for such sniping gave you a chance - but no more than that;
the weaponry was simply not that accurate.  Your vessel still had to get in
range, and you could sight much further than range; sail handling counted
for much more.

The more common gunnery skill was the speed with which your gun crews could
reload - and the degree to which once battle started they could ignore doing
everything but loading and firing!  Like the infantry tactics of the day,
ships were designed to fight by firing quantities of ammunition at the
enemy, figuring that the odds of hitting something that would damage the
enemy would increase as you fired more shots...

mitch
"I would advise against consulting geese in matters of spelling."
          -Charlotte's Web

Ted7@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~Ted7

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:27:56 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: MT Ship Combat

>The problem with MT design system was that it was not the designsystem
>itself but rather that all this detail put into design was meaningless in
>the combat system.

It was anything BUT meaningless in a roleplaying context to know exactly
which sensors you had, how many SR's, which commo, etc. FF&S made even more
detail required, namely WHERE is iit,  and Where can it fire?

>BTW Has anybody on the list actually used the space combat system as put
>forth in MT? I couldn't figure it out. The rules as written seemed so silly
>I thought there were large chunks of rules misprinted or whatnot but the
>errata didn't touch spacecombat much.
>
>
>/Backman

I have; it was basically you can move a number of squares per turn equal to
your agility, and rages in squares converted to close, long, and disengaged
brackets from HG.

I always used mayday movement with Personal Combat System stats for weapons
(except for mesons and disintigrators, which don't convert by the tables in
PH). This works well, if you extrapolate the Fire Control Table for more
range bands.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:38:33 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Traveller Music

> Does anyone else have favorite Traveller music?

I would prefer Dune Soundtrack from Toto. Star wars is too "tainted" by the
movie to be used in Traveller. By the way, it's a very good music (I've 6 of
john Wiliams!)
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 08:15:00 GMT 
From: j.kundert@genie.com
Subject: Book list

I've done this a few times before, but I can't promise any consistancy...

Traveller Reads, er.. Traveller Related Reading (sorry, my Cerebus habit
is showing):

 -Poul Anderson's space books. All of them.  This includes the Flandry/
  Imperium cycle, the van Rijn/Falkayn/Polesotechnic League books, and the
  "incomplete" (but actually rather extensive) Psychotechnic League books.
  Not to mention some stand-alones like The Avatar, Tau Zero and Orion Shall
  Rise.

 -Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan cycle.

 -Elizabeth Moon's Hunting Party trilogy.

 -Robert Frezza's "McLendon's Syndrome" and its sequel "The VMR Theory"

 -David Drake's "Hammer's Slammers" series, though just the first book
  will give you a good idea...  Much of Drake's other work is readable in
  a Traveller context.

 -Melissa Scott's Roads of Heaven trilogy. Variant (uses magic in space)
  but very Traveller feel besides this. She has also done some other things
  I recommend but can't remember the names of...

 -Anne McCaffrey's Dinosaur Planet cycle, including "Death of Sleep",
  "Sassinak," "Dinosaur Planet," "Dinosaur Planet Survivors," and "The
  Planet Pirates".  Also read the Crystal Singer books and the Ship Who
  Sang cycle.

 -Andre Norton's space books. This includes many pairs, trilogies and
  series as well as singles.

 -Benford and Brin's "Heart of the Comet."

 -Greg Bear's Eon trilogy, "Eon," "Eternity," and "Legacy."  Legacy is
  the most Travelleresque of these, but they are all worth the read.

 -David Brin's Earthclan books: Sundiver, Startide Rising, Uplift War,
  Brightness Reef and Infinity's Shore.

 -Brian Daley's Hobart Floyt trilogy: Requiem for a Ruler of Worlds,
  Jinx on a Terran Inheritance, and Fall of the White Ship Avatar. Sadly,
  Mr. Daley died a couple years ago, so we will never see more of this
  quintessentially Traveller series.

 -Robert Heinlein's too-numerous-to-mention library of books.

 -Alfred Bester's "The Stars My Destination."

 -Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy trilogy, though only
  the first three are really worth it.

 -Joe Haldeman's "Forever War."

 -David(?) Weber's Honor Harrington series, which is at six books and
  growing.

 -Arthur C. Clarke's "The Songs of Distant Earth" as well as the 2001
  trilogy.

 -C.J. Cherryh's Chanur books, as well as the Downbelow Station/Cyteen/
  Forty Thousand in Gehenna cycle.

 -Alan Dean Foster's Humanx Commonwealth stuff. All of it.  This includes
  the Flinx books.

 -Phil Foglio's Buck Godot series. Actually a comic book. Very funny and
  worth the effort to find and read.

  That will have to do for now. These are not listed in any particular
order of preference, but are presented in the order they drifted to
the surface of my tired brain. I'm sure more will surface...


 Jim Kundert
 .sigless and not in Seattle

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:58:41 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: CARD GAMES and GEN CON

aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) mentioned Traveller Starship
Combat Card Game:

>If done well, this might actually get me to break my vow never to touch a 
>CCG with 10' proverbial...

Well, I've avoided them like the plague, but the demo we ran at OrkCon had
me fixed. Jo Grant (originator of the game), James Burdick and I spent ages
playing and coming up with new ideas, rules, etc.

The proposal is with IG for taking this further; we'll have to see what
Courtney thinks (he has a lot on his hands just getting all the products out
this year).

Whether or not it makes it to a product in the near future, BITS/CORE intend
to run demo games of the CCG at both the US GEN CON and Euro GEN CON. So, if
you're interested, turn up and see us!

We've also been contributing to the GEN CON discussions with Tim Brown and,
hopefully, there should be big Traveller tournaments and everything you'd
expect of a successful games company at both GEN CONs!

Andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:09:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: reading matter

In mail you write:

> Also by Debra Doyle and a co-author I do not recall; The "Mageworld" series 
> which begins with _The Price of the Stars_.

James D. MacDonald. The series currently stands at this (in order of
publication): 

#1 The Price of the Stars
#2 Starpilot's Grave
#3 By Honor Betray'd
#4 The Gathering Flame (prequel to the first 3)
#5 The Long Hunt       (sequel to the first 3)

> This series gives a kind of magical twist to Psionics yet I found things in 
> it I liked and will use with Traveller Psionics. Also jump space 
> descriptions are as close to Traveller as I have found in a recent novel.

The two *big* differences are that jumps have a duration proportional
the length. You can drop out early, if you don't care about being quite
a ways from your destination. And of course, that means that you can
make a "microjump" and pop out quiclky (instead of a week later).

The other big difference is that they have FTL communications. But this
isn't all that important for reasons that will become clear when you
read the books.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:45:02 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: CARD GAMES and GEN CON

Andy Lilly wrote:

> Whether or not it makes it to a product in the near future, BITS/CORE intend
> to run demo games of the CCG at both the US GEN CON and Euro GEN CON. So, if
> you're interested, turn up and see us!

ehrm ...
Do you have dates for the Euro GEN CON? Where and when is it taking
place?

Thanx alot in advance

CU
Buddy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:00:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis

In mail you write:

>>At 300 km/s the tau factor is .9999995. That means that clocks will be
>>running about 500 nanoseconds off. That means that you've got a 500
>>*foot* error due to velocity difference.
>
> That is why I suggested a time and velocity stamp. If we know what the time
> stamp of the sending ship is, and the velocity it is travelling at when
> sending the data packet, adjusting for the tau factor biasing the incomming
> data should be relatively simple; analogous to compensating for wind in the
> days of sail. 

But your velocity is always *zero*. It's everyone and everything else
that is moving. Which means measuring *your* velocity *relative* to
another ship requires bouncing radar or lidar pulses off them. And
between time lag and the like, the gives you more uncertainty.

If the ships are both *coasting* (ie moving at a constant velocity)
then after a few exchanges of ranging pulses, they can get a decenet
figure for relative velocity.

If either ship is accelerating (changing velocity in magnitude *or*
direction) then you can't do this. But you *can* determine
unequivocally *which* ship is accelerating. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:53:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?

In mail you write:

> Vilani Names
>
> Common Male Names:
> Eneri;  Enli;  Ganidiirsi (dim: Gani);  Shannash;  Mazun and Khugi
>
> Common Female Names:
> Gamaagin (dim: Gam);  Nashu;  Sharikkamur (dim: Sharik); Iikush and Munush

This is rather interesting. Enli is an Assyrian name[1]. And the rest
look rather Assyrian as well.

Hmmm. I wonder which part of the world Grandfather stole the
"proto-Vilani" from? :-)

[1] Enli is one of their heroes/gods. As I recall, he figures
prominently in the Epic of Gilgamesh. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:17:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Circular PAWS

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>    <snippage>
>> Heck, for a design that never lands, a toroidal (donut shape) ship
>> might be a good idea. The ring would be in "middle" of the torus, and
>> quite well protected. And the torus gives a lot more surface area for
>> mounting turrets and docking bays and the like.
>> 
>> Among other benefits, any missile that comes from the "face on"
>> direction is going to need special programming, or its attempt to hit
>> the center of the target will cause a complete miss! :-)
>> 
>> And think of the number of point defense weapons that can bear on a
>> target coming in from that direction....
>
> I can see it now...
>
> Corsair Ship
>   Sensor officer: "Sir, sensors show the ship to have a circular hull."
>   Captain: "Hah, another lab ship! Hail them and tell them to prepare
>             to be boarded.
>   Sensor officer:  "No answer, sir. Wait! We're being painted with
>             target acquisition frequencies!"
>   Captain: "What!?"
>   WHAMMO!!

Well, one thought that has occured to me is that this would make an
interesting battle rider design. You have the "carrier" be a cylinder
that fits through the "hole" easily. You just "stack" the riders onn
the "jump bus".

And if tractor beams are allowed, it makes a good design for customs
work, and the like. You "grapple" the other ship with the tractor beams
and pull it into the center of the "hole". So you have *lots* of
weapons showing, and you have it "surrounded".

It might also make a good design for a miltary cargo hauler or escort.
Wrap it around the cargo. 

For that matter, with properly designed drives, it could use "the drop
tank from hell". A *big* drop tank that fits thru the center of the
ship. I could even see a ship dropping a partly full tank to drift
while it sneaks in to raid. It'd still have enough fuel for jump 1, but
if it *does* manage to get back to the tank it has a *lot* more fuel.

This design could also be useful for stealthy approaches. Both gravity
and heating can be handled by spinning the ship. That helps reduce the
signature a lot while it imitates a piece of space junk on approach. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:27:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

In mail you write:

> So, let's talk...during the "age of sail":
>
> Ships could stay at sea for *long* periods, they were forced into port
> mainly for food and water.
>
> Damaged ships could usually be repaired by their crew, even in primitive
> conditions.  Ships carried carpenters, iron mongers, sail makers, and the
> tools they needed to keep a ship in trim.  Heavily damaged ships could
> sail...or be towed to most any port where it could be repaired.

This is also what made piracy *possible*. Pirates didn't *need*
shipyards or large fuel supplies.

My posts (many months back) about the sort of "fabricator" type
technology that ought to be avialable even at TL 10 or so makes this
possible again. If you have the "design specs" to feed into the faber,
power, and a supply of the right elements, you can replace it. 

So only *major* components would be a problem. Hull plates can be
repaired by "welding" in sections. Otherwise the limit is that the part
has to be able to fit the output of the faber.

> Weapons for almost *all* ships, from lowly merchantman to mighty SOL, had
> about the same range and did about the same amount of damage.  The SOL just
> had *lots* more of them.  Hitting at range was *heavily* dependent on
> gunnery skill.

Not true. Bigger guns *did* do more damage. A 12 pounder would bounce
off a ship that a 42 pounder would punch through *both* sides of.
Ranges *were* limited. Hitting at range was next to impossible for
broadside weapons. Only the bow and stern weapons were designed with
range in mind, and crewed by people who could use them effectively at
range.

> Warships could take lots of punishment.  You could pound holes in the
> wooden hull, wreak the masts and sails, sweep the decks killing crew,
> silence the cannon, and the ship would still be afloat.  

Well, you can't "sink" a spacecraft. But destroying them is possible.

> Most losing ships ended up being captured along with most of their crews,
> not being destroyed.  The captured ships ended up refitted, renamed, and in
> the navy of the other side.

This isn't likely to happen. Heck, it'd take *major* efforts just to
intercept crippled ships before they left the system. Consider a ship
that's been accelerating for an hour. It's travelling at over 200
km/sec. After a few hours, finding it after the battle could get *real*
ugly.

> Ships could be sighted at much longer ranges than you could shoot at them,
> and long stern chases were common.  Speaking of speed, all ships were
> within a few knots of each other, so ships and fleets could often simply
> attempt to refuse battle by sailing off and losing themselves in the night,
> the fog, the distance.

This checks out ok.

> The ship's maneuverability was important in single combat, and was
> *heavily* dependent on the skill of the crew and sailing master. Before and
> during combat ships maneuvered to achieve an advantage, mainly to be able
> to cross the other ship's bow or stern (crossing the T), or to gain the
> "weather gauge" (get the wind so they could sail away from the opponent).

Manueverability *should* be closely tied to acceleration.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:43:34 +0000
From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Subject: Books for inspiration, and Callahans

I have to admit to having a bit of a biased opinion on the callahans 
books. even though there not completely SF. But I also run the 
callahans archives on the web.

heres a few other suggestions from my list:

Fifth Foreign Legion series[Andrew Keith]: A lot like traveller in 
sone ways, well written, and tech is pretty much in line with 
traveller.

The Mercenary series[Jerry Pournelle] Yeah I know a lot of people 
dont care for Pournelle, but I like some of his stuff

Hammers Slammers[David Drake] some of the best combat SF around, as
far as I'm concerned. not quite gearheaded enough for my taste.

Cowboy Fengs Spacesuit Bar and Grill[Steven Brust] another bar book
but far different from Callahans
The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:20:19 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: G or not G update

Thanks to all who answered, especially Wildstar for the 'Official line', if
its explained in either MT or T4 basic books (I don't have any add ons)
then i missed it.

So the Terrans forced their will upon us during the Misrule of Man, so why
not throw the yoke of past imperial oppression off and start afresh with
Sylean Gravity being the standard 1G, and our time references as the
standard time, after all we are the new imperium. (this is hypothetical,
don't start replying, unless you really want to.)


Colin Hollands	
Programmer Analyst - Financial Systems
MIS Europe & Africa Region
Phone:	0171 413 3413
Fax:	0171 257 6369

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:31:24 -0500 (EST)
From: CMcknight@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller reading

Oooopps,

Forgot to mention my all time favorite authors:

E.E. "Doc" Smith - Lensman series, D'Alembert series

Gordon R. Dickson - Dorsai Series, Child Cycle

Fred Saberhagen - Berserker series

Chuck McKnight

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:29:19 -0500 (EST)
From: CMcknight@aol.com
Subject: Re: Book list

I always got a laugh and more than a few ideas from:

Harry Harrison - The Stainless Steel Rat series, The Deathworld Trilogy

Jack Vance     - Space Opera

Keith Laumer   - The Retief of the CDT series

as well as the "harder" science fiction by Arthur C. Clarke and Isaac Asimov.

Some other good reads are:

Ben Bova - Orion

Harlan Ellison - Almost any of his sci-fi is a veritable gold mine.

William Gibson - Neuromancer

My tuppence.

Chuck McKnight (back after a looonnnnng absence)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #895
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 29 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 896



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Book list
Re: Common Vilani names?
Re: New TNE Skills
Re: G or not G update
Re: Common Vilani names?
Re: The Demise of T4
Re: Tech levels
Digest Problems at FTP.MPGN.COM
Re: Common Vilani names?
Traveller's Demise
Re: More Age of Sail, discussion
Re: The Demise of T4
Re: reading matter
Re: Book list
Carronade etymology...
Re: Circular PAWS (Canadian Content Alert!)
Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"
re: New TNE Skills
Re: Carronade etymology...
Fleet & Melee

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:44:04 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Book list

Does anybody know if John M Ford, the Keith Brothers et c has written
anything with Travelleresque background? The books with the strongest
Traveller feel I think are Poul Andersons Flandry books but aren't there
any written specifically in a Traveller universe, Imperium or not?
There was a TNE trilogy(?) but it didn't feel like Traveller (neither did
the TNE gaming stuff).


/Backman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:58:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?

Hi.

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> In mail you write:
> 
>> Vilani Names
>>
>> Common Male Names:
>> Eneri;  Enli;  Ganidiirsi (dim: Gani);  Shannash;  Mazun and Khugi
>>
>> Common Female Names:
>> Gamaagin (dim: Gam);  Nashu;  Sharikkamur (dim: Sharik); Iikush and Munush
> 
> This is rather interesting. Enli is an Assyrian name[1]. And the rest
> look rather Assyrian as well.
> 
> Hmmm. I wonder which part of the world Grandfather stole the
> "proto-Vilani" from? :-)
> 

Interesting. The old microgame "War War" gave Assyrian names to their star
systems.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:23:17 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: New TNE Skills

>Hi, Harold.
>
>I like the skills selections you've posted but I'm thinking that the
>Fishing skill should be cascaded to individual worlds, depending on
>the kind of critters you're trying to catch. Each environment could
>have radically different creatures which would require skills a
>Terran fisherman wouldn't have a clue about.

Well it should be cascaded into fishing equipment like Fishing(Bendor)
Net-3, Fishing(Wurzburg) Float&Sink-5 et c ;)

No seriously, fishing is included in sSurvival as is (should be) Hunting.
Gunsmith should be included in Mechanic et c. If a character wants to flesh
out his guy with arcane splitcanerod flyfishing Terra/V=E4nern then let them
but keep the skills general. More skills does not make a rpg better,
more rules for skill use does.


/Backman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:34:13 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: G or not G update

At 01:20 PM 1/29/97 +0000, Colin Hollands wrote:

>So the Terrans forced their will upon us during the Misrule of Man, so why
>not throw the yoke of past imperial oppression off and start afresh with
>Sylean Gravity being the standard 1G, and our time references as the
>standard time, after all we are the new imperium. (this is hypothetical,
>don't start replying, unless you really want to.)

Speaking as the guy who is doing Planetology 101 in a few weeks on IRC..
because it is much easier this way.  When I say that a planet has a gravity
of 1.4g, my players don't have to convert from Sylea's .87g (or whatever) to
figure out how much they weigh!

I believe that Sylea is anear twin to Terra in terms of day length, mass,
yesr, etc.  this would explain its prominent place in the Rule of Man.  It
was probably easier to keep the Solomani units as a standard through the
longNight/Sylean Federation period.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:40:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?

Quoth Leonard Erickson:
> > Eneri;  Enli;  Ganidiirsi (dim: Gani);  Shannash;  Mazun and Khugi
> > Gamaagin (dim: Gam);  Nashu;  Sharikkamur (dim: Sharik); Iikush and Munush
> 
> This is rather interesting. Enli is an Assyrian name[1]. And the rest
> look rather Assyrian as well.
> 
> [1] Enli is one of their heroes/gods. As I recall, he figures
> prominently in the Epic of Gilgamesh. 

Heh.  Take a look at the Solomani Rim, where there are more Mesopotamian
names than you can shake a stick at among the Vilani-settled worlds.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:15:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: The Demise of T4

> From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
> Subject: List Activity
> 
> Just as a bit of trivia that would seem to indicate how much
> interest there is in Traveller, especially since T4 came out...
> 
> When GDW collapsed, about a year ago, the list usage wasn't
> significantly different (and I'm including XBoat traffic in
> that).

Hm, although my memory isn't a very reliable source, I'd say
that it was about 1 TML/1 Xboat digest a day, or so.

> Since the announcement and release of T4, the list has been
> averaging four to five times the volume of what it had been
> prior to the collapse of GDW - I'm averaging one megabyte to one
> and one half megabytes per week.

Yes, I usually get about 3 or 4 digests each morning - it takes
me quite a while to wade through it all!

> In addition to that, I'm seeing discussion (not a lot, but it's
> there) of Traveller on rec.games.frp.misc - and I think I may be
> missing some of it; I do a vgrep on subject lines, rather than
> letting the computer find them for me, plus, I have suspicions
> about the veracity of my provider's feed's statements that my
> provider is getting a _complete_ feed.

Hm, well, now I don't know if that's such a good thing. I've been
reading these threads and they're by no means all pro-Traveller.
One thread is Michael T. Richter, who panned T4 on his RPG review
web site. His criticisms about T4 are not totally unfounded, but
he's more or less a loud-mouthed anal git. (who doesn't read TML I
hope). Someone criticized the aliens in AA and was met with the response
"go out and buy the old books" which was met, in turn, by "what kind
of f*cking game requires you to go buy out of print supplements to
be playable?" which quickly degraded into a typical Usenet flame-fest.
But as they say in the ad industry "There's no such thing as bad press".

If there's one thing I've noticed about r.g.f.m, it's that the delays 
of the Bablyon 5 RPG haven't really upset anyone drastically - IG would
do well to imitate Chameleon Electric - wait until the product is 
_done right_, then release it. But I shouldn't beat a dead horse.

> Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe that reports of the demise of
> Traveller are greatly exaggerated.

I think I heard my T4 hardback wheeze yesterday and I could have sworn
I saw it pop an ibuprofen, but dead it most certainly is not. :)


- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:01:51 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Tech levels

Peter Newman writes:
>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> Subject: Re: Tech levels
>> 
>>Peter Newman suggests that:
>>>The Second Empire was TL 12 it just happens that they had a few      
>>planets that made a few experimental TL 14 Vac Suits.
>> 
>>My point was that these TL14 Vac Suits are common enough, 1500 years 
>>after the collapse of the Rule of Man, to be sold on the open market on 
>>Sylea. This implies that they have been recovered in significant
>quantities. I don't know what the odds are of any one suit surviving 
>for 1500 years, but they can't be good. If they had been experimental 
>suits there might be one or two carefully preserved specimens in Sylean 
>museums, but surely not on the open market.
> 	Why not ?  

This really boils down to a discussion of how many suits constitutes 
"significant quantities". As such it is unlikely that we'll ever agree
because we'll tend to stretch definitions to suit our preconcieved 
notions. But i'll give it a whirl.

>	When I said that the suits were experimental I was thinking that
>perhaps 1 in 10,000 (0.01 %) of all Second Empire spacesuits were made
>at TL 14.  

OK, let's assume that.

>The third Imperium had a population (circa 1100) of about 11 trillion people 
>(1.1 x 10^13), 

15 trillion according to _Rebellion_.

>I have never seen population data on the
>First or Second Imperium but I am going to assume that their population
>was at least 1 trillion (1 x 10^12). 

That's propably as good an asumption as many others.

>If 2% of these people had Vac Suits 

This, OTOH, is not reasonable. The text in CSC says that the suits were
recovered from derelict ships. It takes money equivalent to the naval
taxes of 7400 people (at Cr 500 per) to provide the investment needed for 
one Free Trader with a crew of 10-12 people. That would be 1/6th of one 
percent of the population and the ratio becomes much worse the bigger the 
ship is.

>this is 20 billion (1 x 10^10) suits.  If 1 in 10,000 of these suits was
>Tl 14 that makes 2 million (2,000,000) Tl 14 Vac Suits. 


>If 0.5% of these suits survived that makes 10,000 suits surviving.  

Where do you get this assumption? You start by estimating how many 
derelict 2nd Empire ships survived to be found by the Syleans. You 
then multiply that with the odds that any one of them happened to be
those experimental devices. And you _then_ estimate the chance that 
any one of them survived 1500 years intact.

>	Now one sale every few years may not seem like a lot BUT if the suits
>are expensive enough this may enough to establish a market.   Original
>works of art are (by definition) unique but they sell all the time (they
>just cost millions), maybe the market for TL 14 Vac Suits is similar.

IIRC he text says that those suits go for 2-3 times their base value, but I
dont' have the book to check.

> 	Or we could just make the simple assumption that 1 medium size ship
> whose crew were all issued TL 14 suits was recently (within 50 years)
> found (maybe in a deep cometary orbit) around some nearby planet.  

That's a much better idea. It surmounts all my objections and only leaves
Harold's point that a TL 14 vac suit, even an experimental one, wouldn't
exist in a vacuum (so to speak), but implies extensive tech 13 knowledge
(and some manufacture) in a host of related fields. And as we all know
(by now) the Rule of Man wasn't even TL 13, it was TL 12.

>As a matter of fact I am tempted to do a write up for JTAS describing this
>type of situation...

A good idea. Just make sure you explain where the level 13 support
technology came from, too. 

>	TL 14 Vac Suits do fit within the generally Tl 12 background of the
>Rule of Man - if you want them to - if you don't want them in YOUR
>campaign just ignore them.  

Balderdash! I'm not arguing about MY campaign or YOUR campaign but about
The Official Traveller Background (Ta-dah!). That I'm quite able to filter
out any mistakes for my own use is completely irrelevant.

(I'm sorry to be rude, but this comes just a couple of days after I've
responded politely to a similar argument. It comes up every so often as
a last ditch defense and it never fails to irritate me.)

>Besides the suits can fill the role of a neat gimmick in a Mileau 0 game 

IMO they would be a lot neater if you couldn't buy them on the open markt
for 2-3 times the base price.

>while being about 5 orders of magnitude_less_unbalancing of a campaign than 
>most of the Ancient Artifacts which turned up in the published CT & MT 
>adventures.

True, but irrelevant.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:21:49 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Digest Problems at FTP.MPGN.COM

Well, the digest problems should be solved.  The umask got changed when we
upgraded majordomo.  Also, sometimes, for reasons yet unclear, some ftp
sessions hang even though we have a 5 minute timeout set.  These hung jobs
sometime cause the number of FTP sessions to exceed our maximum.  For
people using FTP They will see the message that we are full, but for people
using web browsers, and I think that MS IE is the most guilty, by only
reporting an error and not giving the real reason.

Any way, things should be normal.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:18:27 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?

Oh, boy, here we go again...I just came up with a heretical canon-breaking
idea...

Galanglic is allegedly the Lingua Franca of the third imperium. But, if
Vilani (the language of the first imperium) was tonal in nature, shouldn't
tonal-language speakers from terra have been the quickest to pick up
Vilani? In other words, shouldn't Galanglic be more appropriately called
Gal-Mandarin-ic? After all, that is (IIRC) the most commonly spoken
language on the planet, for all that English is the 'common' language
today.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Del Jones wrote:

> In response to Douglas E Berry,
> 
> mmm, no wonder the Vilani are so stuck in their ways....
> try explaining your new idea when everyone thinks you're
> talking about *Bread Puddiing* (Sic.)
> 
> > From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> > To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> > Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?
> > Date: 28 January 1997 03:07
> > 
> <snip...>
> > 
> > IIRC, Vilani was a tonal language, with each element
> having six different
> > tonal varieties.  Thus you get 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:43:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Traveller's Demise

Did I just say that Traveller wasn't dead? My mistake.

From http://www.webrpg.com/?link=survey/results2.html


Which discussion groups were you interested in?
To make things simple, we'll be adding these groups by starting at the
top. In the next few days, you'll see quite a few new Forums open up.

88% AD&D
82% Fantasy
58% Forgotten Realms
47% Traps & riddles
42% Amazing feats
34% Science Fiction
 <deleted>
4% Champions
3% StarTrek
3% Car Wars
2% Star Frontiers
1% Traveller
0% Earthdawn

Lower than Star Frontiers! Egads! A black day indeed.

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:48:10 +0000
From: Guy Wilson <ccguy@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: More Age of Sail, discussion

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> I know what you mean, the carronade...yes?
> 

> The British were successful with it as long as their ships had the
> advantage in speed and maneuverability.  They used their maneuvering
> advantage to get in close and pound their opponents, while avoiding the
> long-range fire of their enemies.
> 
> In the War of 1812, the Americans used *their* speed and
> maneuverability to stay out of range of the British carronades and cut them
> up with accurate long-range fire.

The British were rarely faster than their opponents - typically  their
ships were so fouled from long duty on blockade that they were much
slower
than their French and Spanish adversaries. Also, it should be noted that
the American frigates had much larger hulls and so could absorb more 
punishment. 

> 
> I guess the carronade is the fusion gun in Traveller...nice and powerful,
> but *very* short ranged.
> 


Guy Wilson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:56:02 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Demise of T4

At 11:15 AM 1/29/97 -0500, you wrote:

>> In addition to that, I'm seeing discussion (not a lot, but it's
>> there) of Traveller on rec.games.frp.misc - and I think I may be
>> missing some of it; I do a vgrep on subject lines, rather than
>> letting the computer find them for me, plus, I have suspicions
>> about the veracity of my provider's feed's statements that my
>> provider is getting a _complete_ feed.
>
>Hm, well, now I don't know if that's such a good thing. I've been
>reading these threads and they're by no means all pro-Traveller.
>One thread is Michael T. Richter, who panned T4 on his RPG review
>web site. His criticisms about T4 are not totally unfounded, but
>he's more or less a loud-mouthed anal git.

As the other half of the Richter-Berry flame war, let me say that I've never
seen a more unreasonable person.  He seems to think that because something
doesn't work the way he wants it too, it's a broken mechanism.  When you
quot e the rules to him, he insults you.  Amazing.  I am offcially ignoring
him from now on, BTW.. He and Terry Austin can scream at each other until
the end of time for all I care.
 
>If there's one thing I've noticed about r.g.f.m, it's that the delays 
>of the Bablyon 5 RPG haven't really upset anyone drastically - IG would
>do well to imitate Chameleon Electric - wait until the product is 
>_done right_, then release it. But I shouldn't beat a dead horse.

Well, the latest debacle re:B5 is getting a bit more attention...

>> Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe that reports of the demise of
>> Traveller are greatly exaggerated.
>
>I think I heard my T4 hardback wheeze yesterday and I could have sworn
>I saw it pop an ibuprofen, but dead it most certainly is not. :)

I had to fight mine for the Prednisone this morning.. and that's a steroid!
good sign I imagine...

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: reading matter

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970127023902.00686e54@connexus.apana.org.au>

<< So I was wondering, besides reading this list if people could suggest 
to me some reading matter to keep me going till then. Especially novels 
with a 'Traveller' feel about them. >>

Good Books:

Anything by Iain (M) Banks
_The Demolished Man_, _The Stars My Destination_ (Alfred Bester)
Anything by Lois McMaster Bujold
_Childhood's End_ (Arthur C Clarke)
The Han Solo trilogy (Brian Daley)
_Neuromancer_ (William Gibson)
_Take Back Plenty_ (Colin Greenland)
_Desolation Road_ (Ian McDonald)
The Known Space series (Larry Niven)
_The Mote In God's Eye_ (Niven & Pournelle)
The Falkenberg series (Jerry Pournelle)
_Snow Crash_ (Neal Stephenson)
Anything by Walter Jon Williams

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:21:00 -0700 (MST)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: Book list

On books for reading/inspiration I would add:

Miles Vorkosigan Books/Lois McMasters Bujold
	
The Mageworlds Trilogy/ Debra McDonald and ?<first name> Doyle
	A varient setting (but workable with high powered psionics), but
the main trilogy (Price of the Stars, Star Pilots Grave, By Honor
B'trayed) is the best space action I've read since Daley's books.

Plus - did anyone remember the Keith Brothers "Fifth Foreign Legion"
Series?  Reminds me of the old Mercanary days.

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:13:08 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Carronade etymology...

Eris Reddoch wrote:

>
>I always write cannonade, and then have to go back and change it to
>carronade.  Does anyone know why they're called ca_rr_onades?

        'cause they were first forged in a Scottish town called Carron...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:13:12 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: Circular PAWS (Canadian Content Alert!)

Leonard Erickson wrote:

[snippage]
>
>And if tractor beams are allowed, it makes a good design for customs
>work, and the like. You "grapple" the other ship with the tractor beams
>and pull it into the center of the "hole". So you have *lots* of
>weapons showing, and you have it "surrounded".
[more snippage]


        In Canadian vernacular, Newfies (abbreviation for citizens of
Newfoundland) tend to be the butt of jokes ridiculing their alleged general
cluelessness.  A typical joke revolves around a Newfie-designed parachute
that opens on impact.

        The above idea about donut-shaped customs vessels reminds me of the
back of the old Canadian $50 bill.  It had a scene of the RCMP's Musical
Ride (basically, crack horsemen doing the equestrian equivalent of
synchronized swimming) all gathered around in a circular formation with
their lances pointed inward.  That particular formation is nicknamed the
"Newfie firing squad".

        A Tim Horton-class Customs Cruiser would definitely require
extensive armouring on the *inside* of the torus :)...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:37:32 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > Weapons for almost *all* ships, from lowly merchantman to mighty SOL, had
> > about the same range and did about the same amount of damage.  The SOL just
> > had *lots* more of them.  Hitting at range was *heavily* dependent on
> > gunnery skill.
> 
> Not true. Bigger guns *did* do more damage. A 12 pounder would bounce
> off a ship that a 42 pounder would punch through *both* sides of.
> Ranges *were* limited. Hitting at range was next to impossible for
> broadside weapons. Only the bow and stern weapons were designed with
> range in mind, and crewed by people who could use them effectively at
> range.

Oh, I don't dispute that a 42 pounder did much more damage than a 12
pounder. <g>  What I was trying to get across was that there were a
standardized and limited number of weapon sizes. You had  the 12, 16 and
24 pounders for long range and later the carronades (I think they were
usually 32 pounders), in the British navy. There were other guns, but
they were rare...standardization was important...it *still* would be
important in 3,000 years.  Merchant ships mounted the same standard
sized weapons, so you could fit them into the same firing carrages, use
the same balls, the same powder loads (more or less), and they were all
operated the same so a gunner trained on one could pretty much fire any
of them. 

As far as firing at range was concerned, it depended on the situation. 
In massed fleet actions, the lines closed to very short range and
pounded with their broadsides, but in individual ship duels there was a
case to be made for standing off and taking out your opponents masts and
sails. Of course, individual ship duels were generally between frigates
(the cruisers of the period), not SOL. I don't think an SOL went
anywhere on it's own, always part of a squadron.  During the War of
1812, the super frigate, Constitution, had great success with the
tactics of maneuver and fire at long range. It was faster than most
British frigiates (and more heavily armed as well), and her gunners were
much better shots.  The Constitution would stand off from the British
ships,  I recall that on a number of occasions there were multiple
British ships, and fire at their rigging. Once her opponents were dead
in the water she would move in closer across bow and stern raking them
with fire until they surrendered.  For our British friends here, we
American's are pretty proud of the Constitution's accomplishments, but
she was only a frigate and certainly couldn't have stood in a line
against your fleet.  I guess you could say she was mainly a commerce
raider who was lucky not to be caught and defeated by the overwhelming
British numerical superiority.
 
> > Most losing ships ended up being captured along with most of their crews,
> > not being destroyed.  The captured ships ended up refitted, renamed, and in
> > the navy of the other side.
 
> This isn't likely to happen. Heck, it'd take *major* efforts just to
> intercept crippled ships before they left the system. Consider a ship
> that's been accelerating for an hour. It's travelling at over 200
> km/sec. After a few hours, finding it after the battle could get *real*
> ugly.
 
Under normal Traveller maneuver rules I agree with you.  This is one
reason I've been toying with the idea of using "stutterwarp" STL-only
drives instead of regulation T4-thrusters or more realistic reaction
thrusters.  If you knock out a "stutterwarp" drive the ship *is* (more
or less) dead in space, and I've even rationalized a way to do it that
fits in with the regular jump drive. I think I also have the
super-maneuverability "problem" presented by stutterwarp drives handled
too.

The problem with pseudo-velocity drives is, and always has been for me,
the need to include a *real-drive* so ships can match orbits with
planets, land and take off.  The candidates for that are reaction-drives
(fusion, heplar, realistic) and the low powered version of the grav
drive.  All I'm wanting from the real-acceleration drive is something
like 30 to 50 kps delta v over a period of several hours, so a ship can
match vectors, and maybe enough thrust to get a ship up a few kilometers
so the stutterwarp can be turned on.  But this is a different topic,
isn't it? ;->

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:22:38 -0500 (EST)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: re: New TNE Skills

The existing skill "Machinist" is used for gunsmithing.
A separate "Gunsmith" skill would be redundant.

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:31:09 -0600 (CST)
From: ccguy@showme.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: Carronade etymology...

Which was the site of the first modern iron works in Britain. 
In other words, they were the high-tech weapons of the time. 

Which reminds me, what about the rocket's red glare - the 
other big technological innovation of the time, although it
didn't go much of anywhere. 

Guy Wilson

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

> 
> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> >
> >I always write cannonade, and then have to go back and change it to
> >carronade.  Does anyone know why they're called ca_rr_onades?
> 
>         'cause they were first forged in a Scottish town called Carron...
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 97 18:02:00 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Fleet & Melee

>> This fleet is not planning on dropping themselves on 
you, however; they are  instead planning on dropping a 
zillion copies of F, F & S on you.  Some  will find it 
incomprehensible and promptly die off.  Some will get  
annoyingly put out at how simplistic it is.  Most will 
spend the rest of  their natural lives designing new 
vessels.  You will have been assimilated.      Have a nice 
day.   <<

ROFL!

>> More often   than not Contact range gets closed to.  
Especially in a ship or a small   room.  The benefits of 
Contact range are many.  There at least in melee   you can 
dodge blows and few will fire into your fight.      Plus 
when on a starship who wants to chance being blown into 
space.  So   for the above reasons I beleive melee weapons 
should be given more   status.  I realize ranged weapons 
are definatly the preferred weapon but   hey that 
broadsword can come in handy! <<

Well yeah. Think about an office full of Personal 
Computers. Now run around shooting an AK47 off at random 
and throw a grenade or two. (Don't try this at home 
children). Now try and use the PCs. I feel blades would 
find a niche as shipboard melee weapons where both sides 
wanted the ship's control systems to be at all usable afterwards.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #896
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 30 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 897



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

There's gold in that there infrastructure
Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"
Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"
Starships
Re: Fleet & Melee
Solar Radii
Questions
Galmandarin?
Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"
Re: Solar Radii
Re: Common Vilani names?
Re: Traveller Music
Traveller Books.
What is Traveller?
Re: G or not G update
Re: New TNE Skills
Re: New TNE Skills
Some thoughts on RPG design (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:53:42 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: There's gold in that there infrastructure

>Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:02:21 -0500
>From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)

[nice discussion deleted]

>        The implications for Milieu 0 of all this are so painfully obvious
>they don't need mentioning.  The real money to be made in the expanding
>early Third Imperium won't be in selling fusion guns to local dictators
>(peanuts, really), or even selling Fusion+ units to everybody, but rather
>in identifying planets where the conditions are ripe for a growth boom.
>Then you go to local governments at about TL4 and up, and pitch them a deal
>whereby your megacorp will build them a spaceport, fusion plants, a power
>grid, a roadgrid system, a telecom system, hospitals, and water & sewage
>systems at no cost to the government... and all you get are user fee
>concessions for the next century.  Everybody involved wins: the planet
>benefits from the infrastructure and massive sustained economic growth, and
>you & your megacorp make insane amounts of money, as you're running the
>power company, the phone company, the water company, the health system, the
>toll roads, etc, etc, etc <excuse me where I go do a Mr. Burns impression>.

Of course, there are flies in the ointment -- and adventure hooks, of course.  First, in 
order for this to be cost-effective, you'll hire local labor at slightly higher than the 
prevailing wage to build the roads and do all of the other dangerous and dirty work.  
The wage differential will guarantee that you'll get employees, but it will also 
slightly destabilize the local culture (as will your major offworld presence in other 
ways).  

You'll have to relocate some local populations that are in the way, and you'll use local 
forces to do so.  The local forces will of course use too much force; that's where their 
job satisfaction comes from.  That's ok with you, because then you can pay them less.  
Maybe there is a local political dispute about who actually owns that particular place 
where you're putting your particular infrastructural element.  

Some of the employees or their kids will get higher educations with those higher wages 
before the government taxes them back into submission, and they'll have all sorts of 
ideas about organizing labor and changing the status quo.

The government will see this as a great opportunity to get rich for doing nothing but 
signing papers.  It will insist on cash payments for other projects to be carried out, 
or to pay your local laborers, or for licensing fees or building permit fees or 
whatever, and will skim off as much as the government skimmers can skim.  The offworld 
money will go to offworld banks as quickly as ships can carry it.

This situation will become well known to the ordinary people, who will see themselves 
remaining in poverty while the governing class gets rich -- although actually the lot of 
the ordinary people will be improving dramatically.  The rise of their expectations 
faster than their conditions actually improve will be the real destabilizing force.  
Soon, you'll have a civil war and the PCs will be caught in the middle, scrambling for 
their sidearms and trying to protect the local spouses that they've been shacking up 
with from the mob.  Hmm ... I'm getting to like Milieu 0 more and more.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:49:41 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

Eris writes
>I always write cannonade, and then have to go back and change it to
>carronade.  Does anyone know why they're called ca_rr_onades?

Named after a chap named (if I recall correctly) Carron, who invented them.
(A "cannonade" is a hybrid - shorter than a real cannon, lighter than a 
carronade - that never really worked very well; used on merchant ships, 
I believe.)

>The fusion or plasma gun is a more colorful carronade though, and if I
>remember ranges right it certainly would shorten, short range.
Unfortunately, if you think about it, fusion bolts travel far too slowly to
hit evading targets in space (hit probability against an evading target
goes as weapon velocity to the 4th power - at tens of km/s, fusion guns
loose too badly.) It's a pity - fusion guns were colorful - but xray lasers
will have to fill the same niche.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:07:45 -0500
From: Mitchell Schwartz <Ted7@world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> So, let's talk...during the "age of sail":


> Damaged ships could usually be repaired by their crew, even in primitive
> conditions.  Ships carried carpenters, iron mongers, sail makers, and the
> tools they needed to keep a ship in trim.  Heavily damaged ships could
> sail...or be towed to most any port where it could be repaired.

Here is where the analogy breaks down.  The specialized parts and equipment
required to significantly rebuild a battle damaged ship is generally beyond
the capability of teh shops and equipment carried onboard a ship - and
should be (by cannon); otherwise, any twit class D world could (and should)
be capable of producing starships.  A better analogy would be naval craft
from say 1900 on - equipment on board can fix or patch somethings, but major
component replacement needs a shipyard.
 

> Most losing ships ended up being captured along with most of their crews,
> not being destroyed.  The captured ships ended up refitted, renamed, and in
> the navy of the other side.

Here again, the analogy breaks as the amount of systems you replace goes up
(and I believe Starships are a lot more complex than sailing ships), teh
effort required to rebuild teh ship makes capture... less economically
useful.  And the weapons requried to hurt an exemy vessel do too much damage
to make capture useful...
 
> Ships could be sighted at much longer ranges than you could shoot at them,
> and long stern chases were common.  Speaking of speed, all ships were
> within a few knots of each other, so ships and fleets could often simply
> attempt to refuse battle by sailing off and losing themselves in the night,
> the fog, the distance.

Losing people that don't have teh curve of teh earth to hide around is
difficult.

>  Before and
> during combat ships maneuvered to achieve an advantage, mainly to be able
> to cross the other ship's bow or stern (crossing the T), or to gain the
> "weather gauge" (get the wind so they could sail away from the opponent).

Boy have you a bit to learn...

1. "Crossing the T" was WWI batleship tactics designed to have you entire
battleline run in front of the enemy's line, bringing to bear you entire
combined broadsides (and smashing his front ships) while he can only answer
with his forward-pointing turrets, and then only with his front fwe ships.

"Raking" was the napoleonic era ship tactic of running across teh opponent's
stern or bow and unloading your boradside, sending balls coursing down teh
entire length of the enemy's gundeck.

2. The "weather gauge" (being upwind) meant that you could choose how and
when to swoop down on your enemy - or force him to slowly reach or beat
upwind to get at you while you can keep your broadside pointed back at him
(throwing more cannonballs at him than he throws at you).
 
Frankly, in a game where a turn = 30 minutes and most maneuvering is nearly
ineffective, this kind of maneuvering has no bearing, again breaking the
analogy.


>Convoys were actually a viable consideration in BL but not in the more
>abstract combat systems. I could have sworn Spain used convoys for
>protection from pirates along the Spanish Main. Or was it just for the
>trips back to the home country?

Convoys were used frequently by many countries in the napoleonic era, since
it was the most cost effective way to protect merchantmen while carrying out
military duties.
Usually, teh convoys were rather rough affairs, mostly the merchies going in
the same direction within fairly spread area and a few warships trying to
keep them together and zipping about to frighten off privateers when needed.

mitch

"I would advise against consulting geese in matters of spelling."
          -Charlotte's Web

Ted7@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~Ted7

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:14:13 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Starships

Does anyone know how you figure out what the dif between laser bays and normal turrets?
As it is, there ain't one!

And, for that matter, how do you calculate the factor of multiple lasers...the way it is 
worded, if I have 10 factor 2 lasers, I make a battery of 20 damage (why bother with bays, 
and spinal mounts for that matter)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:26:35 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fleet & Melee

At 06:02 PM 1/29/97 EST, you wrote:

>Well yeah. Think about an office full of Personal 
>Computers. Now run around shooting an AK47 off at random 
>and throw a grenade or two. (Don't try this at home 
>children). Now try and use the PCs. I feel blades would 
>find a niche as shipboard melee weapons where both sides 
>wanted the ship's control systems to be at all usable afterwards.

Actually, I have a weapon that will beup on my weapons page (coming the next
day or two) that is a shaped charge with a sensor that only detonates
against soft targets.  It won't breach a wall, but it will splatter a Vacc
Suit..

Very nasty indeed...

BTW:  The URL is going to be http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/guns.html  but
there isn't anything but a nice anigif there yet.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:55:08 -0800
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Solar Radii

What is a solar radii? Is this refering to the radius of the sun
or the radius of the solar system? SSDS refer's to this when talking
about Thruster Plates. 
Thanks
Dave

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:05:52 -0800
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Questions

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I am posting this for a friend of mine please be gentile.
Thanks
Dave

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Traveller Ship Designs?

My fellow Travelers:

I don't know if it is my perception of the way SSDS and QSDS are written or is there a serious problem here with fuel consumption?

1-	In QSDS it states that a ship will use fuel equal to 10% of its Displacement tonnes (Dt) 
	for each parsec jumped. This means that a 100 Displacement tonne ship will use 
	10 Dt of fuel for each parsec traveled. If you have a jump 2 capability this means that 
	you need 20 Dt of fuel on board your ship. 

	In SSDS this is stated in cubic meters per parsec jumped, which when divided by 14
	equals the same thing.
	
	Now, in SSDS you maneuver engines have a fuel consumption rating that is not taken 
	into account in QSDS. For the same ship with a maneuver of 2G the consumption is 
	0.70 cubic meters per hour, for a fusion drive, and 25 cubic meters per hour ,  for a 
	HEPlaR drive.

2-	If, let us say, that you have a 100 Dt Scout ship, and you have to explore a system that is 
	two parsecs away from any system that has either a Gas Giant or a planet that has 
	water , or a High Port. And let us say that there is little or no information available to you 
	about the system that you are to explore. 

	Therefore you cannot accurately plot where in the target system would put you 
	within either 2,000 solar radii (whatever that is) to be able to use Thrust Plate 
	technology nor 10 planetary diameters to use ContraGravity tech. 
	
	If you cannot plot to be able use either of these technologies, then you will require a 
	second maneuver drive system, either HEPlaR or Fusion.

3-	Now, let us say that the above ship has two different types of maneuver drives.

	OK. You plot what you think is a reasonable plot and jump. OOPS, somehow you have 
	miss jumped. You are in the wrong parsec, there is nothing in this parsec and your 
	Astrogator tells you that the nearest system is two parsecs away. How are you
	going to get home? It will take 6.52 years for a radio message to reach the closed 
	system.

4-	Most ship designs do not have, given the current design guide lines, enough hull
	capacity to hold the fuel to handle an additional  two parsec jump plus fuel for the
	maneuver drives.

5- 	If the guide lines were changed from 10% of the Dt, or Volume to 1%, any current ship
	design would be able to handle such an emergency with ease, which given the finality
	of the above case, seems most desirable.

Your thoughts, please. 
Glenn Patterson
e-mail farquar@intergate.bc.ca

- --------------1C75604E155B--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:29:44 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Galmandarin?

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>
>Oh, boy, here we go again...I just came up with a heretical canon-breaking
>idea...
>
>Galanglic is allegedly the Lingua Franca of the third imperium. But, if
>Vilani (the language of the first imperium) was tonal in nature, shouldn't
>tonal-language speakers from terra have been the quickest to pick up
>Vilani? In other words, shouldn't Galanglic be more appropriately called
>Gal-Mandarin-ic? After all, that is (IIRC) the most commonly spoken
>language on the planet, for all that English is the 'common' language
>today.


        Interesting one.  However, let's not forget that Mandarin is not
the only Chinese dialect.  There are literally dozens; Putonghua and
Cantonese and Shanghainese and the list goes on.  Of the bunch, Mandarin is
the easiest to learn, AFAIK, only four tones as compared to anywhere from 8
to 12 or so for Cantonese depending on who you believe.  It's apparently a
very refined and courtly dialect, and has been the common language of the
Imperial bureaucracy from (I think) the Ming Dynasty straight up to the
currently tottering Mao Dynasty.  However, the situation in China is that
they have to subtitle films (the characters are shared among the various
dialects) in order for them to be accessible to Chinese of all dialects.
Mandarin is far from universal.

        As well, from an Asian business perspective, if there's a lingua
franca on the Pacific Rim, it's English.  The Chinese when dealing with the
Japanese would rather die than speak Japanese, and vice versa for the
Japanese. English is simply the most widely spoken second language around
out there.  And, let's not forget, it's the international language of ATC,
lends itself extremely well to creolization, is fairly easily learned and
so forth.  I suspect that in 300 years or so, it won't have lost any of its
currency as a trade language.

        This doesn't mean that the Chinese, as well as the French, German,
African, Latin American, Indian, etc, etc, etc Solomani would not have had
significant influence in terms of vocabulary on Galanglic; it's just that
the common language, the second or third language spoken by most of them,
would probably be English, and this would, I think, be the skeleton that
bits of the Vilani and other Solomani languages would be grafted onto to
make that lumbering beast Galanglic.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:47:10 -0600
From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Subject: Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

Eris Reddoch wrote:
>>
>> Ships could stay at sea for *long* periods, they were forced into
>> port mainly for food and water.

David Smart wrote:
> 
> Not in Traveller. Two weeks max is assumed for the vast majority
> of ships. 

Perhaps in your universe, but not in mine.

IMU, a starship capable of wilderness refuelling can operate indefinately
as long as there is a ready supply of food and water. (and gas giants or
oceans :-)

WRT battle damage, well, it depends.

WRT annual maintenance, it depends on how often you want to misjump. ;-) 

I use the basic power plant endurance as an indication of the ship's 
endurance. In CT, about one month. In T4, about one year.

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@NASCRAG.ORG

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:32:49 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Solar Radii

At 05:55 PM 1/29/97 -0800, you wrote:
>What is a solar radii? Is this refering to the radius of the sun
>or the radius of the solar system? SSDS refer's to this when talking
>about Thruster Plates.

Radius of the star itself.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:08:34 -0500
From: Rob Beck <beck@mail.all-net.net>
Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?

At 10:53 PM 1/28/97 PST, Leonard wrote:

>This is rather interesting. Enli is an Assyrian name[1]. And the rest
>look rather Assyrian as well.
>
>Hmmm. I wonder which part of the world Grandfather stole the
>"proto-Vilani" from? :-)
>
>[1] Enli is one of their heroes/gods. As I recall, he figures
>prominently in the Epic of Gilgamesh. 

You know, now that you mention it, Leonard, a lot of Vilani looks strangely
like it's related to the languages of the 'Fertile Crescent'. Akkadian,
Babylonian, Sumerian. They all basically used the same pantheon structure
and each civ. borrowed heavily off the previous one. I wonder if you haven't
unlocked the secret to Vilani. :)

Rob.

                         Robert Beck
                         E-Mail: beck@mail.all-net.net
                         Send E-Mail For My Public PGP Key.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:55:00 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Music

EL&P - the first album - does it for me - dark and mechanistic...  Turn down
the vocals, though!





- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:30:57 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Traveller Books.

I'm not sure if anyone has read them, but the Sten series by Allen Cole and
Chris Baunch (sp?) are some of my favorites.  They are different from the
Traveller Universe, but I found some inspiration in them.

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:30:53 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: What is Traveller?

>Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:44:04 +0000
>From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
>Subject: Re: Book list
>
>Does anybody know if John M Ford, the Keith Brothers et c has written
>anything with Travelleresque background? The books with the strongest
>Traveller feel I think are Poul Andersons Flandry books but aren't there
>any written specifically in a Traveller universe, Imperium or not?
>There was a TNE trilogy(?) but it didn't feel like Traveller (neither did
>the TNE gaming stuff).

Not intending to jump on Anders post here, but it is bringing up that slight
metallic taste in the back of my throat and I figured I'd better say
something before I really lost it.

Recently I've noticed a number of posts about the lack of Traveller-ness in
TNE, or how un-Traveller TNE was.

I'm sorry, but this annoys me.  Why is it that even with the coming of T4,
people still find it necessary to condemn TNE?  It bothers me.

Let me apologize to Anders before he thinks I'm picking on him, but his post
was just the most recent.

I DO NOT WANT TO STAR ANY ARGUEMENTS AS TO WHETHER TNE IS OR IS NOT TRAVELLER!!!

TNE may not be Traveller to some of you, that's fine, I can accept that.  To
me, CT is not Traveller enough for me, and MT barely so.  Before the cries
of Sacralige come to me, let me explain.

I did not have the privelege of growing up in an enlightened household.  My
parents saw Role Playing games as evil and I was not allowed to play them.
Sure I still did, but not nearly as much as I wanted to.  I played maybe 2-3
games before college.  Then in college (spring 1989) I got in with a group
that played MT and RoleMaster.  After that semester, I didn't get to play
any until years later, just after I got married in 1992.  It was then that I
bought and reffed TNE games for  some friends.

Now I am very sorry that I didn't get into Traveller in 77 when it was
introduced.  I really wish I had been given that opportunity, but that
didn't happen, and I've made the most of what I did have, and that was TNE.
To me, TNE is Traveller, but other than an occasional post like this, I
don't shove it into everyones face.  Nor do I put down CT or MT because I
know there are people here who don't like TNE but really enjoy CT and/or MT.

Am I asking for you to like TNE?  NO!  Absolutely not.  I hope Marc likes
the setting enough to keep it around eventually, but for now, I'll work with
what I've got and with T4 (which I find very Traveller BTW).  I like TNE,
and all I am asking is that we try to continue to get along and not Bash
each other's games.

Thank you for your time and I'm sorry for the length of this post.  I am
also sorry if anyone takes this in the wrong tone.  It is not meant to be a
condemnation of anyone, just a simple request with an explanation.

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 22:44:48 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: G or not G update

On 01/29/97 at 01:20 PM,  Colin Hollands <hollands@london.mis.slb.com>
said:

> So the Terrans forced their will upon us during the Misrule of Man, so
> why not throw the yoke of past imperial oppression off and start afresh
> with Sylean Gravity being the standard 1G

But Colin, you misunderstand. Terra's gravitational pull is 9.8m/s.  A G in
Traveller is defined as 10m/s...and as all Syleans know *our* gravitational
pull is 10m/s! ;-D

Now the Astronomical Unit (AU), is another subject!  Instead of measuring
in-system distances in the terracentric AU why don't we use the more
universal light second (LS)?  We already use .1LS in range and movement
calculations for space combat, so we are already half way there.  And while
we're at it, let's use the Sylean kilometer for measurement so the LS will
be exactly 300,000kps rather than the 298,XXX of the terran kilometer!

[A joke! A joke! All above is a joke!]

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:05:08 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: New TNE Skills

Jeff Brawley writes:

>Great skills, but fishing, according to the basic rules (pp. 201) is 
>a part of Survival.  Unless this is used as a less general type of
>skill, for secondary skill and character development purposes.  But In
>general Survival is broader and therefore more useful.

   True, I was thinking in terms of fishing for pleasure or sport, not
so much for survival (though it could be used for that).  

>I also really liked the Gunsmith cascade skill.  But one thought, 
>shouldn't large caliber CPR guns (mortars, recoiless rifles and 
>howitizers) be another cascade like Heavy Guns.  Along the same lines,
>shouldn't Heavy Weapons be a cascade (for explosive devices like 
>grenades, mines; and missiles like LAW, tac missiles, unguided 
>artillers rockets, etc.) too.
>
>just an idea.

   I think the assumption was that the controls for all Heavy Artillery
are pretty much the same regardless of tech level (insert/mount round,
adjust for bearing and distance, push button--or in the case of a
mortar, adjust for bearing and distance, drop round down tube, keep
hands clear of tube mouth).  True, howitzers also need powder charges,
but then mass drivers need to have energy inputs adjusted, and rockets
and missiles need fins mounted, etc.  Adjusting between the different
procedures shouldn't take much effort.

   Also, Heavy Weapons does cascade to Autogun, Heavy Guns, Energy
Artillery, Grenade Launcher, and Tac Missile.  This might not be what
you were commenting on, but there it is....

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:09:48 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: New TNE Skills

Jeff Brawley writes:

>One more note, also according to the basic rules (pp. 127) the skill
>swimming also grants the knowledge and understanding on how UBA's work
>(underwater breathing apparatus) work.  

   True enough, but the paragraph that mentions it is on p. 128.  Can't
say I caught that the first time around, but the way the layout was
formatted, it was easy to miss.  Thanks.

>New skills are great, but if you have to spend a slot on every type 
>of ability, ttne character gen. doesn't give enough slots.  

   I have discovered that if you don't like the number of skill levels
you're getting (too few), simply make Special Assignment automatic each
term.  The result is a better balanced character.

   As for the other skills I chose to add, Gunsmith and Fishing are
direct imports from Twilight:2000, updated for TNE.  Scrounging also
comes from T:2000, but is somewhat modified.  Security is a new skill,
and I thought it was appropriate given that there really isn't a skill
in Traveller that deals with the issue (despite the fact that player
characters are constantly being hired for such duty).

>Making a character that is adept at _something_ should be possible 
>without too much one dimensioning of skills going on.

   OK, let's say then that Electronics is the applicable skill for
installing infrared sensors.  How does an electronics expert know where
the best place to put them is?  My impression has always been that
someone skilled at Electronics knows just that--Electronics.  He or she
probably doesn't know beans about what constitutes the best place to
install a sensor to provide the maximum protection for an installation
(the answer isn't always next to the front door).  An infantry soldier
knows all kinds of things about perimeter security--for his infantry
platoon.  But he probably isn't up to speed on the most likely places a
terrorist will plant a bomb.  For both reasons and others I felt a new
skill was in order.  You could argue that Security shouldn't cascade,
but I felt that there was enough of a difference between Physical
Security and Anti-Terrorism that a cascade was justified.

   As for Scrounging, it seemed to me that poking around ruins and
talking to natives about them could become a skill all its own, in much
the same way that Streetwise is.  It is a skill that could also come in
handy in Milieu Zero, though I'm afraid that with ruins as old as the
ones from the Second Imperium are in that era, you may be better off in
most cases with Archeology.

   My goal is to add another aspect to the game, not make characters who
end up with skills that read something like: Vehicle (Ground Car,
Hydrocarbon-powered, Automatic Transmission, Power Steering, Anti-lock
Brakes)-1, Research (Computer-based, GUI Interface, Color Monitor,
Standard American English Text)-3, Research (Book-based, Standard
American English Text)-2.

>Just another idea.

   No problem, I understand where you are coming from.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:18:22 +0100 (MET)
From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Subject: Some thoughts on RPG design (long)

Greetings everyone!

Now that it seems that a truly revised T4 edition might be possible (is
there already any definite word on this) and that Marc Miller and Derek
"Wildstar" might get together to rework the basic ship design rules I'd
really would like to put some points to discussion that I did not see
before.

Disclaimer: I was not on this list when MM took over and therefor I do
not know if this was discussed at that point.  I sadly don't have enough
time right now to read the old log files and anyways believe that it might
be agood time to discuss this again.  I'm also new to Traveller (but a
long-time roleplayer), I own *many* (read: more than 100) roleplaying
games and have spent a lot of time tinkering with designs in general and
pondering the philosophy of roleplaying mechanics.

[Comment: since this is a pretty long text, pease skip to the last parts
if you get tired of my line of reasoning at some point -- I'd really like
to see some discussion on this and my last comments in this text are a
base to start from]

Now that the stage is prepared...

<climbs his soapbox>

What I'm asking for is a ship design system that is a *lot* simpler than
QSDS (and SSDS especially).  Theere are several reasons for this (and
from now on I'll just refer to QSDS since SSDS really is only for
gearheads):

1. The T4 rules as a whole: they are very simple (in some parts
simplistic)  rules.  Take a look at skills: most of them are in the 1-5
range.  Take a look at attributes: most are in the 5 to 10 range, Take a
look at the combat system: weapons do from 2 to 7 dice of damage (most are
in the 2-4D range), armor absorbs some of that (again mostly in the 1-3
range).  Weapon ranges are handled by abstract range bands.  To sum this
up: the basic system of T4 is *very* simple, very easy to understand and
pretty abstract for a so-called "hard SF" game.  QSDS in comparison has
lots of tables, *requires* a pocket calculator, uses fractional numbers
and is easiest to use with a spreadsheet.  Notice the difference? 

If there ever is a weapon design system created for T4 there also would be
no reason to use FF&S as a base.  It just makes no sense design-wise to
juggle with formulae and lots of tables just to convert all the numbers to
a range of 2-7 and "short" to "extreme"; e.g. in my opinion a weapon
design system for T4 should run along the lines of: small weapon: 2D,
medium weapon: 3D, large weapon: 4D; very powerful weapon: +1D, killer
ammunition: +1D; adjust as necessary (and some similar system for weapon
ranges).  *That* would be in line with the current rules.  If you feel to
add something more difficult you can do it in a supplement.


2. Goal #1 as stated by MM himself: "A return to the simpler strucure of
Classic Traveller while allowing multiple levels of complexity depending
on he needs and interests of individual players and referees."  This
simply does *not* show in the ship design rules.  There are exactly two
levels of complexity: a design process of medium complexity (QSDS) and a
complex design process (SSDS); FF&S probably would rate as *very* complex. 
Where is the simple layer I ask?  I paged through the copy of Classic
Traveller I purchased and I really believe that T4 is still in need of
some system similar to the ship design process in those rules.  They were
short, they were elegant and you didn't need a pocket calculator to use
them.  And such a system needs to be in the *basic* rules.  A system that
requires a pocket calculator is *not* simple. 

(watching the list makes me believe that many others seem to think so,
too, but don't voice their opinion: look at what is discussed.  People
like to talk about the background, people were eager to provide fixes for
the "broken" task system... and lots of them; starships are only posted
every once in a while and they don't receive many comments [and I don't
refer to the casual "Starships" bashing we all engage in at times];
most people don't seem to enjoy getting involved in this).


3. Playability: as I grow older (heck, I'm still one of the youngest
members on this list with my 25 years) Real Life(tm) more and more takes
away from ones free time.  Getting a job and having a life does such thing
to ones schedule.  I no longer have the time to sit down for many hours
just to construct one or two starships.  I have a life, I have a
girlfriend that wants some attention (and rightly so ;-), I have other
hobbies... the point being: I believe that there are many other people out
there like me and they really *deserve* a system that allows for quick
designs in about 10 minutes.  Needing spreadsheets, endless tables, a
calculator or whatever really is a sign for having a lot of free time on
once hands.  This is not true for everyone.


4. Appeal to new players: this is directly related to #3.  Take a look at
the type of games successful these days.  Most of them are designed around
easy-of-use and the "you can understand me in 3 minutes" principle or
rather KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid).  The average attention span of new
gamers seems to be lower than it was 10 years (or 20!) ago.  Therefor T4
really needs a simple ship design system since the rest of the basic
system is already *very* simple (once the editing improves; I'm hoping the
best for the deluxe edition of the T4 rules and I'm willing to pay once
more in good belief).

This does not mean that the system has no room for more complex systems
like QSDS or SSDS - they just belong in separate supplements.


5. Realism: You don't create a realistic game by using endless columns of
mind-boggling numbers.  To have a realistic feel you need a stream-lined
and internally consistent system.  This can be a very simple system like
CT or it can be a very complex system (I won't say like FF&S since I
personally -- after long thought -- don't believe that it was realistic in
any way... it was simply complex and cumbersome).  Really think about
this: what guarantee for realism do all these numbers provide?  None.
There are lots of them but there is next to no foundation in reality for
all the jump drive related stuff.  As far as I can see the only things
related to real science are the formulae used to determine volume, etc.

Just look at Rolemaster for comparison: there are endless tables and
thousands of numbers and still the game is not overly realistic.  Despite
the cumbersome it's not even possible to make called shots without fudging
the rules.

If you feel the need for a complex system put it into a separate
supplement.


6. System integration: examine the rest of the starship related systems in
T4: the combat system is very simple (maybe a little too simple), the
travel rules are pretty simple -- in comparison QSDS is *very* complex
(note that I said *in comparison*).  This shows a certain discrepancy
which should not show up in a well-designed and well-integrated system.
As an example I can quote the typical Greg Porter rules system (e.g. CORPS
2nd edition).  The rules are very well-integrated, they all use the same
basic system and they all use the same *philosophy*.  In T4 this still
mostly is a patchwork.  As someone said on rec.games.frp.misc: "Greg
Porter seems to be the last *real* designer.".  This is *not* a flame or
an insult at MM (please don't read it this way), just the observation that
Greg Porter obviously put a lot more work and a lot more thought into what
he did.

Given the circumstances of the birth of T4 this was not possible but *now*
there is the chance... probably the last one.  Don't miss it.


7. The final opportunity: people complained about several things being
broken in T4.  This is probably the best time to fix it.  The revised
rules could go into the deluxe edition and they also could be used in the
next standard printing.  If you want to fix things, do it *now*.  In two
years you no longer will have the chance to do it, since by then the
system will either be dead or established (hopefully the last).  At that
point you'll only aggravate folks by suddenly changing core mechanics.
Now you can do it and build upon that.  Consider this, too.



To come to an end (yes, finally ;-) -- what I'd really like to see are the
following things:

A. A much simpler ship design system in the basic rules (similar to CT but
with more options).  I don't own any of the other rules systems so I can't
comment them but the CT system nicely fits into the rest of T4 -- it just
could need more options and some more ship sizes.

B. A starship supplement with both QSDS and SSDS.  You'd start out with
QSDS as an intermediate level system and then could add detail in all
areas involved.  This would be in line with goal #1 as stated by MM and it
would really allow players to customize the system to their taste.

C. Comments on this (especially from Marc Miller since he is [or at least
*should* be] the driving force behind the general design -- Joe, if he
doesn't make up his mind about this publicly, please nudge him into it --
I really believe that this is important ;-).  I'd also like to see *a lot*
of comments from the members of this list


The bottom line of all this is: if someone would like me to get involved
in designing a *truly* simple ship design system (be that Derek, be that
MM :-) I'd really be willing to help with this.  My diploma thesis is
nearly completed and I'll soon have quite some free time on my hands (at
least for a couple of months).  I know can decide whether I'd like to
spend most of that time with Chivalry & Sorcery 3rd Edition or with a
revision of the T4 ship design process.  I'd really like to help out (and
if it's just to be able to say 'we tried our best'.  I'm really willing to
help out but I need an opportunity (and now, I won't start any private
efforts until I get at least some sign of "yes, this might be a worthy
attempt we are going to evaluate" -- as I mentioned: I no longer have as
much free time as I had in former years). 

Thanks for listening.

<steps off his soapbox and now is eagerly waiting for responses... lots of
them>

Greetings from Germany,

				Thomas Biskup.
(who has not yet given up on T4 but is waiting for Milieu 0 [and comments
about the revised deluxe edition])

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #897
**********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 30 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 898



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"
Re: Traveller Books.
Re: Solar Radii
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #896
test
Re: "Miller" inside jokes
Simpler Ship Design Sequence
Science Fiction Alien Module
Re: Solar Radii
Re: There's gold in that there infrastructure
Trav ship design
Re: Some thoughts on RPG design (long)
Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"
Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"
Re: Some thoughts on RPG design (long)
TNE bashing
Re: Some thoughts on RPG design (long)
Re: Solar Radii
Re: The Demise of T4
Re: Common Vilani names?
Re: What is Traveller?
Re: Some thoughts on RPG design (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 00:55:23 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

On 01/29/97 at 08:07 PM,  Mitchell Schwartz <Ted7@world.std.com> said:

> > Damaged ships could usually be repaired by their crew, even in primitive
> > conditions.  Ships carried carpenters, iron mongers, sail makers, and the
> > tools they needed to keep a ship in trim.  Heavily damaged ships could
> > sail...or be towed to most any port where it could be repaired.

> Here is where the analogy breaks down.  The specialized parts and
> equipment required to significantly rebuild a battle damaged ship is
> generally beyond the capability of teh shops and equipment carried
> onboard a ship - and should be (by cannon); otherwise, any twit class D
> world could (and should) be capable of producing starships. 

Probably true...certainly true given the canon Traveller view, but I'm a
well-known heretic, so I don't pay much attention to
canon...cannons yes, canon no. ;->

In that vein let me say that we don't know how *bad* damage has to be
before it can't be repaired, and as you say.  .  .

> A better analogy would be naval craft from say 1900 on - equipment
> on board can fix or patch somethings, but major component
> replacement needs a shipyard.
  
During the steam period, most things on a ship could be patched well enough
to keep the ship going until it got to a port, and most *non-structural*
damage could be repaired in most any port if the ship's Engineer could
scrounge up the parts.  Certainly, 100 meter rips in the hull or massive
explosions in the boiler room could sink a ship outright, but bilge pumps
could handle a pretty big hole and keep a ship afloat as long as the
engines kept running, and boilers could be patched and gotten back online
even after pretty heavy damage.  Pipes could be repaired.  Wiring restrung. 
A ship didn't *have* to have a radio.  Major structural damage required a
dry dock and that's where a ship yard came into play.  I suspect it's the
equivalent of a dry dock that separates the B's from the C's and D's, but
port classifications are just a game artifact after all.

We don't know how robust a starship built 2000 years from now will be. 
Certainly, present day electronic gear is much less repairable than
mechanical components, but who's to say how much of the *required*
equipment on a starship is electronic, how much is mechanical, and how much
is gravitonic..and we don't know how
fragile (or robust) gravitic technology will be.  Leonard posted sometime
back on ideas for robust electronics equipment using some sort of hot tube
technology, so even *that* might not be too
fragile.

>> Most losing ships ended up being captured along with most of >> their
crews, not being destroyed.  The captured ships ended up >> refitted,
renamed, and in the navy of the other side.

> Here again, the analogy breaks as the amount of systems you
> replace goes up (and I believe Starships are a lot more complex
> than sailing ships),

Maybe, probably, but not certainly.  With 2000+ years of development
starship components might be tougher, more repairable than you imagine.

> And the weapons required to hurt an exemy vessel do too much
> damage to make capture useful...

Ah, now that's the sort of thing I've drive at!  Why?  Suppose it makes
sense IN THE GAME to capture ships, because you can repair them and get
them back into action on my side.  You'll want a weapon that *doesn't* blow
the hell out of the other ship.  You'll want one that knocks out its drive,
silences its weapons, *encourages* its crew to surrender, but doesn't wreak
it completely.  What weapon is this? Laser?  PAW?  Meson?  Missile?  I
suspect it's none of the above, but I'm still looking.
  
>> Speaking of speed, all ships were within a few knots of each >> other,
so ships and fleets could often simply attempt to refuse >> battle by
sailing off and losing themselves in the night, the fog, >> the distance.

> Losing people that don't have teh curve of teh earth to hide around is
> difficult.

Sure, but there is *jump* space!  <g> If you can beat your enemy to the
jump limit you can really disappear, and if you don't make it easy to
follow a jumping ship it can escape.

> 1. "Crossing the T" was WWI batleship tactics designed to have you entire
> battleline run in front of the enemy's line, bringing to bear you entire
> combined broadsides (and smashing his front ships) while he can only
> answer with his forward-pointing turrets, and then only with his front
> fwe ships.

Oh please!  <g> If by WWI you mean the Anglo-Dutch wars of the 17th century
then OK.  The  actual tactic "crossing the T" is over two hundred years
older than 1914.  Now I'll admit that the *term* "crossing the T" only goes
back to the late 19th century, but the basic idea is just a refinement of
raking.  It doesn't matter if it's one ship or a line that crosses an
opponents bow or stern, it's still"crossing your enemies "T", and it's
still your massed fire against his bow or stern.

> "Raking" was the napoleonic era ship tactic of running across teh
> opponent's stern or bow and unloading your boradside, sending balls
> coursing down teh entire length of the enemy's gundeck.

Yesss, raking is firing on a column down it's length, to enfilade. So, if
you "cross a single ship or a line of ship's "T" you can "rake" them. It
applies to ground combat too.

> Frankly, in a game where a turn = 30 minutes and most maneuvering is
> nearly ineffective, this kind of maneuvering has no bearing, again
> breaking the analogy.

In *your* game a turn is 30 minutes, not in *my* game!  I won't run a space
combat with 30 minute turns.  Joe and I talked about this while we were
designing the RPSCS.  I didn't like 30 minute turns then, and I don't like
'em now.  

I'm still looking for a way to reduce that to...oh say...3 minute turns. 
Yes, I'll have to change ship speeds, yes, I'll have to do something about
weapons and ranges, and no I won't want to deal with major fleets.  What
I'm looking for is "Wooden Ships and Iron Men" in space, or I guess, "Star
Ships and Crystaliron Men."  ;->


Eris,
   proudly a heretic!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 01:01:50 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller Books.

On 01/29/97 at 11:30 PM,  Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com> said:

> I'm not sure if anyone has read them, but the Sten series by Allen Cole
> and Chris Baunch (sp?) are some of my favorites.  They are different from
> the Traveller Universe, but I found some inspiration in them.

Sure! I've read some of them. Violent, action packed, ripping good! ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:24:57 -0800
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Solar Radii

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 05:55 PM 1/29/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >What is a solar radii? Is this refering to the radius of the sun
> >or the radius of the solar system? SSDS refer's to this when talking
> >about Thruster Plates.
> 
> Radius of the star itself.
> 
> --
> +-------------------------------------------------+
> |   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
> |      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
> |         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
> |*************************************************|
> |        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
> |        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
> |                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
> +-------------------------------------------------+

So then what is the limit in AU's or Light Seconds of thruster plates?
2000 solar radii=?
Thanks
Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:07:09 +0000 (GMT)
From: David John Yeardly <djy@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #896

Carronade

These were origionaly made at The Carron Iron Works (near Falkirk). This 
Iron work produced weapons for the navy of the period and I beleve (but I 
may be wrong ) that this weapon was designed there

Dave y


P2 - AD28 - 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:13:09 -0800
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: test

Sorry, but my OS died and took my mailbox records with it -- I need to see
if this is the right address.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 05:54:39 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Miller" inside jokes

In a message dated 97-01-29 06:47:56 EST, you write:

> >Marc you devious......  it took us nearly 20 years to make this
connection?
>  
>  Hey, this was a traditional inside joke in the old alien modules.  There
>  was a Zhodani sample name built from a root that supposedly meant
something
>  like "to grind grain".  :)
>  
>    Steve Bonneville
>    <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>

Hearing this reminds me of the process which created those words. John
Harshman had a strong influence on Traveller then, and he liked to do puns.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:14:49 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Simpler Ship Design Sequence

I fully agree with the post of Thomas Biskup. Traveller *is* in dire 
need for a simpler design sequence that appeals to those gamers with 
few time or short attention.
How do you americans put it: The right to choose! 
We should be able, like in the olden days, to choose a level of 
complexity which suits us best, and right now, a simpler system is 
missing. Those systems (attn: Radical thought) don't even have to be 
fully compatible, since once a GM chooses a sstem, he will most 
likely stick with it, and having a balanced game.

My first ever ship design was something like this: 
"So there's this freight carrier, see? I has a laser and can make a 
Jump two and is pretty slow in combat. It can carry about 100t of 
cargoe and 15 passengers including crew!"
That was all the information the players needed at first, and on this 
basis, i was free to expand upon later on.
A ship doesn't have to be complex, it just is supposed to be fun.Just my 2 EuroCents,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:53:02 +0900
From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Subject: Science Fiction Alien Module

With all this recommending of science fiction going on, I thought I might 
try to find out if anyone knows the title to a science fiction book I once 
had and soon lost (never loan books you like out to irresponsible 
friends...).

The book reads like a Traveller alien module.  It starts off by detailing 
the formation of a double planet, describes the evolution of the sentient 
lifeforms on both worlds, their rise to civilization, and eventually to the 
point where they notice each other and make contact.  It isn't really a 
story with characters, but it is fascinating.  The book I had was typical 
paperback size and I had it around 1983 - 85.  Do any of our resident 
science fiction gurus know what the title or author was?

Thanks,

Armand

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 05:35:35 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Solar Radii

At 11:24 PM 1/29/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>> 
>> At 05:55 PM 1/29/97 -0800, you wrote:
>> >What is a solar radii? Is this refering to the radius of the sun
>> >or the radius of the solar system? SSDS refer's to this when talking
>> >about Thruster Plates.
>> 
>> Radius of the star itself.

>So then what is the limit in AU's or Light Seconds of thruster plates?
>2000 solar radii=?

Depends on the star.. from SSDS:

>The cutoff parameter turns out to be around 2,000 solar radii. Beyond this
>point, thruster plates are virtually worthless for anything beyond
>stationkeeping, and some alternate form of propulsion is needed. 

Our sun has a radius of 432,000 miles.  So a thruster equipped verssel
retains usefulness out to 864 million miles (9.29 AU), or almost to Saturn's
orbit.  Beyond that, you need something else, like HEPLaR.

This has some serious implications for naval combat.. all of a sudden, Terra
has *one* useful Gas Giant to defend.  The others our out in the "badlands",
where thruster equipped ships are helpless.  

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:23:23 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: There's gold in that there infrastructure

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>
>Of course, there are flies in the ointment -- and adventure hooks, of
>course.  [snippage]
>Soon, you'll have a civil war and the PCs will be caught in the middle,
>scrambling for
>their sidearms and trying to protect the local spouses that they've been
>shacking up
>with from the mob.  Hmm ... I'm getting to like Milieu 0 more and more.
>
>- --Glenn

        You see what I was driving at then :).  Seriously, though, this
sort of project doesn't seem to be causing massive civil unrest everywhere
in Asia, but hey; if it makes good sense and good fun to have something go
really bad, way to go!  Have your PC's dodge fusion+-powered earthmoving
equipment driven by disgruntled union organizers and so forth...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:23:27 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Trav ship design

Glenn Patterson wrote:

>
>Traveller Ship Designs?
>
>My fellow Travelers:
>
>I don't know if it is my perception of the way SSDS and QSDS are written
>or is there a serious problem here with fuel consumption?
[snippage of thoughts on fuel tankage and drives in SSDS/QSDS]

        I read you loud and clear, Glenn.  SO far, I haven't done a ship
that doesn't have 50-100% more fuel than required for its normal jump
range, and most have had HEPlaR auxiliary drives backing up their T-plates.
However, I decided to completely disregard the 1000 diameter limit on
T-plates in my campaign.  Thus, the HEPlar auxiliaries in my ships are
there as a) afterburners to get more acceleration, or b) in the case of my
submission to the scout ship design contest, to clear landing zones where
there's too much crud over the bedrock.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:23:30 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on RPG design (long)

Thomas Biskup wrote:

[snip]
>
>(watching the list makes me believe that many others seem to think so,
>too, but don't voice their opinion: look at what is discussed.  People
>like to talk about the background, people were eager to provide fixes for
>the "broken" task system... and lots of them; starships are only posted
>every once in a while and they don't receive many comments [and I don't
>refer to the casual "Starships" bashing we all engage in at times];
>most people don't seem to enjoy getting involved in this).
[snip]


        Well, count me in as someone who likes SSDS.  I've also been
mucking around with FF&S, and like that too.  I think that the complexities
in the design system translate into interesting quirks in the end product
that enhance the roleplaying.

        And with regard to T4, if anything I find that the combat system
could do with some extra complexity.  Recoil ratings would be nice for one;
with the standard weapons, this is probably not needed, but when you start
mucking about with autoshotguns, they'd sure make the game a little more
interesting.  Also, better rules on autofire; I've already done a house fix
on the autofire rules for an RF gauss SMG one player is packing: 5 rounds
per burst struck me as way low, so I doubled that and the damage multiplier
too.  And a hit location table like the wonderful one Glenn Grant did would
help, too.

        Other than that, good post.  I think that a Really Simple Ship
Design Sequence, so long as it retained consistency with SSDS and QSDS,
would be a really good thing to have.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:29:59 +0000
From: Guy Wilson <ccguy@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

Mitchell Schwartz wrote:
> 

> >  Before and
> > during combat ships maneuvered to achieve an advantage, mainly to be able
> > to cross the other ship's bow or stern (crossing the T), or to gain the
> > "weather gauge" (get the wind so they could sail away from the opponent).
> 
> Boy have you a bit to learn...
> 
> 1. "Crossing the T" was WWI batleship tactics designed to have you entire
> battleline run in front of the enemy's line, bringing to bear you entire
> combined broadsides (and smashing his front ships) while he can only answer
> with his forward-pointing turrets, and then only with his front fwe ships.
> 
> "Raking" was the napoleonic era ship tactic of running across teh opponent's
> stern or bow and unloading your boradside, sending balls coursing down teh
> entire length of the enemy's gundeck.
> 

Actually, raking is what one ship does to another. Crossing the T,
although it 
may be a later term, is widely used by historians to describe what
Nelson did - 
it is what one fleet does to another. 

> Frankly, in a game where a turn = 30 minutes and most maneuvering is nearly
> ineffective, this kind of maneuvering has no bearing, again breaking the
> analogy.
> 

Perhaps we could introduce a combat system with shorter turns in which 
maneuver is important. Like everything else about Traveller, it should 
be modified by players and gamemasters when it does not meet their
needs.

Guy Wilson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:37:24 +0000
From: Guy Wilson <ccguy@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Let's talk "Age of Sail!"

> In *your* game a turn is 30 minutes, not in *my* game!  I won't run a space
> combat with 30 minute turns.  Joe and I talked about this while we were
> designing the RPSCS.  I didn't like 30 minute turns then, and I don't like
> 'em now.
> 
> I'm still looking for a way to reduce that to...oh say...3 minute turns.
> Yes, I'll have to change ship speeds, yes, I'll have to do something about
> weapons and ranges, and no I won't want to deal with major fleets.  What
> I'm looking for is "Wooden Ships and Iron Men" in space, or I guess, "Star
> Ships and Crystaliron Men."  ;->
> 

Hey, heresy is great! 

Anyway, have you considered using Ironclads as a model - it provides a
similar
feel to WSIM but with engines.

Guy Wilson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 01:22:50 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on RPG design (long)

IMHO dont just redesign the starship construction system, but also throw
out the task system and go back to a MT type system.

Does anyone know why this TNE - MT hybrid task system was adopted? 
I vote 2D6 with 23+ as an impossible task (yes, it IS an impossible
task, you have buckleys of doing it even though you have an education of
15 and a skill of 3).

And fix autofire as well, I got sick of my players being more effective
with SMG's at 1500m than they were with Auto-rifles.

Why not improve ALL the broken bits and make a truly superior game
system.

I already have a copy of T4, but would be more than happy to buy a
revised rules version. 

Harry the Signatureless

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:50:03 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: TNE bashing

>I'm sorry, but this annoys me.  Why is it that even with the coming of T4,
>people still find it necessary to condemn TNE?  It bothers me.

Bravo, Paul. I too am tired of the TNE bashing. People don't realize that
there are folks on here who get involved with Traveller in the first place
because of TNE. Like it or not, TNE happened.

>I DO NOT WANT TO STAR ANY ARGUEMENTS AS TO WHETHER TNE IS OR IS NOT
TRAVELLER!!!

You may not, but I do. Here's my opinion (keeping in mind the old Hiver
adage "opinions are like colaca's; everyone has one"):

1.) In terms of the rules systems, yes, TNE was not Traveller,although the
GDW House system did use some elements of Traveller. It was the T:2000
system and therefore was probably not the best choice for Traveller.

2.) In terms of the BACKGROUND (and leaving aside the issue of the viability
of Virus), it was every bit as Traveller as anything else that's been done.
yes, there were flaws, such as Short Nap that was way too short. But I
enjoyed (and still enjoy) the RC setting when it is run with the proper
emphasis. I don't care for military settings anyway, which is why I don't
give a rat's ass about ships above 5000 tons. I ran my RCES campaign as a
Scout Service with teeth, which is what I think was originally intended anyway.

3.) The Virus Era (as it's now being called) may undergo revision, but it's
here to stay. You're free to ignore it of course, but that puts you in the
category of folks who still believe the Earth to be flat. It isn't going
away. Deal with it.

In my opinion (flameproof suit on); for a list which is about an RPG, there
are an awful lot of imagination-impaired people on here.

                                                Allen Shock

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:08:01 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on RPG design (long)

At 09:23 AM 1/30/97 -0500, you wrote:

>        Well, count me in as someone who likes SSDS.  I've also been
>mucking around with FF&S, and like that too.  I think that the complexities
>in the design system translate into interesting quirks in the end product
>that enhance the roleplaying.

As a non-space gearhead, let me say that while I like having detailed
starships that I can describe in "real world" terms, Having QSDS around is
nice for me when i just need another pirate ship or whatever.  The more
advanced design sequences come into play when I think of what a friend who
is a merchant marine engineer told me:

"There are no two identical ships afloat anywhere in the world.  They have
all been modified from the day their keels were laid."

>        And with regard to T4, if anything I find that the combat system
>could do with some extra complexity.  Recoil ratings would be nice for one;
>with the standard weapons, this is probably not needed, but when you start
>mucking about with autoshotguns, they'd sure make the game a little more
>interesting.  Also, better rules on autofire; I've already done a house fix
>on the autofire rules for an RF gauss SMG one player is packing: 5 rounds
>per burst struck me as way low, so I doubled that and the damage multiplier
>too.  And a hit location table like the wonderful one Glenn Grant did would
>help, too.

I've been mucking about with T4 combat myself.. If you look at 3G3 Greg has
seperated Penetration and damge again.  3G3 actually has a couple of nice
fixes tucked into the conversion notes.  My weapon pages (coming soon! I
hate doing tables in HTML!  Help!) will include Signature and Recoil,
although I'm just going to use Low, Med, High ala MT..

Since I do my own weapons (Greg, am I plugging 3G3 enough?) I use the damage
of individual pellets of a shotgun attack as seperate attack at anything
beyond Very Short range.  Auto-Shotguns are therefore a form of extreme
nastiness, and to be encouraged as ship defence weapons.

Another thing I've stolen is Cyberpunk: 2020's three-round burst rule:  +2
to hit, roll 1d6/2 for the number of rounds that hit.  "Double tapping" a
pistol; make one to-hit roll at +1 level of difficulty.  If sucessful, the
rounds count as one attack for purposes of damage.  (Picture double-tapping
with the -9 triple damage roll and making it..  10.5x2=21 points for the
d-t, x3 for the triple damage.. 63 points of hurt in one shot.  Ouch.)

I'm not overly enamored of hit location tables. They seem to slow things
down a bit.. YMMV.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:27:05 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Re: Solar Radii

On Thu, 30 Jan 1997 05:35:35 -0800, "Douglas E. Berry"=20
>This has some serious implications for naval combat.. all of a sudden, =
Terra
>has *one* useful Gas Giant to defend.  The others our out in the =
"badlands",
>where thruster equipped ships are helpless. =20

As the thruster plates push against a gravity well, it would imply
that the thrusters also would work outside the stellar radii limit,
but close to a planet. Probably limited to a few hundred diameters.
=20

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:47:52 +0100 (MET)
From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: The Demise of T4

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> As the other half of the Richter-Berry flame war, let me say that I've never
> seen a more unreasonable person.  He seems to think that because something
> doesn't work the way he wants it too, it's a broken mechanism.  When you
> quot e the rules to him, he insults you.  Amazing. 

I *hate* to get into this but it's been annoying me for some time.  I'm
sorry to say that I have to support Michael T. Richter as far as his
complaints go (yes, he could be a lot more polite but others started
yelling, too): he basically (if you get past all the flame stuff)
complainging about several broken T4 mechanics and he is *right* about
that.  He basically states that they are broken *as presented* in the
rules and he's right about this.  You up to now (from what I have read)
only stated that the GM can fix it and you are *right* about that.

Nonetheless you failed to address all his objective complaints.

Since I'd like to prevent the TML from becoming yet another battleground
I'd propose to continue all further discussion about this via email.

Thomas Biskup


 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:06:39 -0700
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Common Vilani names?

Regarding the Assyrian/Mesopotamian origins of Vilani
language/culture/population -- the same thing occurred to me, years back,
when I first saw Vilani names.  They have a definitely Akkadian flavor to
them (although the tonality sure isn't <G>).  But if the original Vilani
population were taken from Terra by the Ancients three hundred thousand
years ago, there sure weren't any Assyrians running around back then.
Coincidence, I figure...

Speaking of Vilani, does anyone on the list know of Traveler linguistic
material that's been created?  Either canonically or privately?  Is anyone
*interested* in this subject?  I am -- in Vilani and/or Zhodani, at least.
Traveler, with all its hard-science feel, is pretty soft on the
socio-cultural side of things -- we shouldn't let those lumpy-browed
Klingons get all the attention for having their own language <G>.

Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:42:51 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: What is Traveller?

>>There was a TNE trilogy(?) but it didn't feel like Traveller (neither did
>>the TNE gaming stuff).

I'll try to shut up about TNE's unworthiness from now on.

Still, are there anybody out there that know about CT, MT based fiction. I
think the one or other of the Keiths write under pseudonym and also that
John M Ford has written some fiction. Finally, you gearheads out there;
take a look at GURPS Vehicles 2:ed. It is by far the best design system for
anything BUT starships and guns.
Also very good rules for using the vehicles.

One BIG problem with FF&S and MT design system was that all those
interesting details that were put into a design was then abstracted away
into something like "add TL to the number of sensors and divide by 2"
If there is a sensor, gadget and whatnot in the design system there should
be rules for it.


/Backman
Aniware AB
My other e-mail is: anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:24:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on RPG design (long)

Re: the really simple ship design system...

Uhh, Thomas, you just did it...that's part of the GM's job. If all the
detail your players want or need, just tell 'em that: they have a small
freighter, jump 2, a laser battery and 100 tons capacity. There is no need
for a 'design' system rewrite.  However, I don't think that QSDS needs to
be taken out of the main rulebook. Cleaned up, with design examples, yes,
but removed? No , not at all. Just because YOU like a minimalist approach
does not mean that that is all that should be offered...this isn't a
personal flame, just an observation. Given the state of RPG's today, a
simple, minimalist approach, like the original CT will vanish from the
marketplace in a hurry. People just don't seem to tolerate LBB's anymore.

At the risk of sounding like a scratched record, a scratched record, a
scratched record...

The rules are what you make of them, the rules are not a straightjacket,
the rules are to be discarded as you like.

Starships, (from what I've heard...I haven't even looked at it yet) was
badly flawed. what it should have been was a large compendium of
predesigned ships for GM's like you who don't want to bother with
designing ships, as well as a more detailed system than that in the main
rulebook, ie: it should have included SSDS. The flaws were more in
execution than conception. This would have, at least partially, made
everyone, gearhead and non gearhead alike happy, which is what you have to
do in producing an RPG that will survive: make the greatest number of your
customers as happy as you can.  This necessitates some compromises.

You don't like, or want formulas. Fine, you truly don't need to use them
to play the game, AS WRITTEN. You do want formulas for everything. Fine
you can use them by the rules AS WRITTEN(at least whenever FFS II,whatever
it's called) comes out. That's the beauty of a 'object-oriented' game
system, like the qsds/ssds/ffs sequence.

	If you can't do that, then the rules need to be fixed, but I for
one, would prefer a system with scaled complexity; sooner or later my
players are going to ask, just how long that little freighter is, and what
are the dimensions of the cargo hold, and how fast can the run from the
bridge to the engine room, for which I need the detail provided by
qsds/ssds/ffs.


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #898
**********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 31 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 899



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

on-line prices - shipping costs too high?
Re: Some thoughts on RPG design (long)
European GEN CON
T4 Deluxe Edition
Re: Science Fiction Alien Module
Heavy Metal
Re: Solar Radii
Re: [T97#893] Common Vilani Names?
Re: Fleet & Melee
T4 Deluxe Edition
Re: Questions
Re: Traveller Books.
Reading material
Re: "alien module"
Re: Fleet & Melee
Re:  Some thoughts on RPG design (long)
[Traveller Answer] Starship Weapons
Long Day's Journey... Part II 
Re: New TNE Skills
Re: What is Traveller?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:28:29 -0400 (AST)
From: Ron Dawson <rdawson@cgc.ns.ca>
Subject: on-line prices - shipping costs too high?

I've watched the various complaints regarding the "too high" T4 prices for
a while.  While I can live with the listed unit prices, I can't justify
paying their on-line shipping costs.  For mailing just next door to
Canada, there is a $10 per item charge.  If I order more than 5 items, I
get a discount on items 6 or 7.  Are these shipping costs realistic?
It's more than 50% the price of some of the books.

It seems that a fairer system would be x% of total price or some minimum
amount for shipping, whichever is greater.  They don't have to ship all
items separately, do they? 

I don't think I'll be ordering anything from them anytime soon.  It's too
bad none of the local stores carry T4.  

Joe (Walsh), perhaps you can answer this (or get information).  I already
tried emailing IG, but haven't heard back.  I'm looking for the name of
Canadian distributors who carry T4.  This is part of my efforts to get the
somewhat clueless local hobby stores to pick up the game. 

- - Ron

- --------------------------------------------------------
Ron Dawson
CANSARP Support,                       Search and Rescue
Canadian Coast Guard College,                Sydney N.S.
Phone: (902) 564-3660 x1345          Fax: (902) 562-6113
Email: rdawson@cgc.ns.ca  Pager Email: pageron@cgc.ns.ca
- --------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:08:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on RPG design (long)

Hi.

> From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
> Subject: Some thoughts on RPG design (long)

> [Deleted: Lots and lots of stuff, every bit of which I agree with.]

Yes, yes, yes!

- -Rob, the (ditto-head) High Guard guy.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:48:06 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: European GEN CON

Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at> asked (about CARD GAMES and
GEN CON):
>Do you have dates for the Euro GEN CON? Where and when is it taking
>place?

28-31 August

Loughborough University, England.

Details can be obtained from TSR UK on +44-1223-212517.

Attendance is about 3,000, so it's the biggest UK convention by miles. We
may also be at Essen, but I've not got details for that yet.

BITS (British Isles Traveller Support) should be running stuff as per last
year, including a tournament (assuming Courtney coughs up some prizes! :-)
). I don't know if I can drag any of the current IG crowd over...

Andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:07:53 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: T4 Deluxe Edition

I, for one, would be interested in the planned 1500 copy release run
of the T4 Deluxe Edition.  I was one of those silent voices that
cringed when Imperium Games placed "getting the product out for
GenCon" ahead of "producing a clean, proof-read product".

I purchased my signature series copy shortly after the offer appeared
on IG's web page.  It was a bit of a disappointment, to say the least.
I would be willing to give IG another shot at producing what the
*original* T4 rulebook should have been.

Just to remain honest, the $10 discount offered to those who took part
in the original internet hardback purchase was a major part of my
decision to consider buying the planned T4 Deluxe Edition.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:01:57 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Science Fiction Alien Module

Quoth Armand Suarez:
> The book reads like a Traveller alien module.  It starts off by detailing 
> the formation of a double planet, describes the evolution of the sentient 
> lifeforms on both worlds, their rise to civilization, and eventually to the 
> point where they notice each other and make contact.  It isn't really a 
> story with characters, but it is fascinating.

That would probably be "First Cycle", from a manuscript by H. Beam Piper,
"edited and expanded" by Michael Kurland.  My Ace paperback is (c) 1982,
so it fits your timeline perfectly.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 97 15:39:07 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Heavy Metal

>> From: Scott Ellsworth <fuz@deltanet.com>  [...]  "You 
die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal   <<

Do you have any idea how much trouble I had to go through 
to get a copy of this stormin' movie? When it was 
rereleased in YankLand, I tried to get it here in England 
and was told it had been banned. Banned! Bastards! Got it 
in the end but wow! Talk about Police State.

Sorry, off topic. Great landing, man. <snif>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:23:42 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Solar Radii

At 04:27 PM 1/30/97 GMT, you wrote:
>On Thu, 30 Jan 1997 05:35:35 -0800, "Douglas E. Berry" 
>>This has some serious implications for naval combat.. all of a sudden, Terra
>>has *one* useful Gas Giant to defend.  The others our out in the "badlands",
>>where thruster equipped ships are helpless.  
>
>As the thruster plates push against a gravity well, it would imply
>that the thrusters also would work outside the stellar radii limit,
>but close to a planet. Probably limited to a few hundred diameters.
> 

assuming the same rule holds true.. the thrusters would work out to about
2000 planetary radii, you still have a serious problem.  Lets put an invader
fleet around Saturn, using thrusters.  Saturn's radius is 35,500 miles,
giving us a "thruster horizon" of 71 million miles.  The invader fleet is
contained in a sphere of about 1.5x10^24 cubic miles, which compared to the
area reachable from Jupiter (inside the Sun's t-horizon) is immense.
(2.7x10^27 cu miles, if I'm using my calclator correctly.. 1.8 million times
as large as Saturn.)

That fleet is going to be bottled up in a convienent location for the locals
to launch strikes against.. the Invaders can't cut and run unless they can
jump, since anyone going 'over the edge" and out of the t-horizon will becom
a nice ballastic target for long-range pot shots.



- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 17:35:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#893] Common Vilani Names?

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> hath scriven...

T::>>>  Rich Ostorero wrote:
 ::>>>
 ::>>> >This is a very good question. I can only come up with one: the
 ::>>> >food-processor guys (Shugilli) would, in something of the same
 ::>>  >tradition of us terrans using occupational names like, uhm, "Miller."
 ::>>  >I wonder if this is a play on MWM's name . . . .

T::>>> Marc you devious......  it took us nearly 20 years to make this connection?

T::>> You mean that it was not instantly (ie less than 0.1 second) obvious to
 ::>>you the very first time you saw it ?

T::>>(sarcasm mode on) You Sir are not a true Traveller fan ! (sarcasm mode
 ::>>off) :)

T::>Doug sits stunned in front of the computer.. his life has ended.. no longer
 ::>a Traveller Guru.  Slowly he gathers the books, maps, and notes that have
 ::>defined twenty years of Traveller playing, and donates them to an orphanage.

 NO!  DON'T DO IT!  Twenty years of Traveller is too much to
 sacrifice for one small missed observation!  I'm sure that even
 Stephen Hawking, Albert Einstein, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, and
 (dare I even think it?) Bill Gates (yup, I dare - in a
 microsecond!) have all missed obvious things - they didn't pack
 it in!  Don't set penance for yourself; you'll be too hard on
 yourself.

T::>Then, dressed in sackcloth, ringing a bell to warn passers-by of his status
 ::>as a gaming leper, he comes to the store..

T::>"Ummm... where do you keep the.. A.. AA... AD&D?"

 For _this_, I think you'd better visit the 'fresher and wash
 your mouth out with soap.  Yes, we have some in there, along
 with real water; the sonics are on the fritz at the moment.

 Mentioning _that_ product, or in fact any product by _that_
 company, Feh!  On _this_ list, double Feh!

 'sides, I missed that connection, too - I made the "Baker"
 connection instead - "Miller" didn't seem to me to do _enough_
 to turn crude Vilani vegetables into something edible, and I
 know that even on Terra, there are some vegetables that just
 have to be _cooked_ to be eaten (ever try raw asparagus or
 Bruxelles sprouts?  Worse than cooked, and that says
 something).

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Or by misleading the innocent * Spock and McCoy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:23:42 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Fleet & Melee

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> Actually, I have a weapon that will beup on my weapons page (coming the next
> day or two) that is a shaped charge with a sensor that only detonates
> against soft targets.  It won't breach a wall, but it will splatter a Vacc
> Suit..
> 
> Very nasty indeed...

Kinda like a hi-tech diver's bang stick?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:42:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: T4 Deluxe Edition

Hi,

Just a reminder: if you would be interested in the T4 Deluxe Edition, 
send an email to imperiumgames@imperiumgames.com telling them so.  If 
they don't know we want it, they won't produce it! ;)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:30:47 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Questions

Dave Strebe wrote:
> 
> I am posting this for a friend of mine please be gentile.
> Thanks
> Dave
> 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Traveller Ship Designs?
> 
> My fellow Travelers:
> 
> I don't know if it is my perception of the way SSDS and QSDS are written or is there a serious problem here with fuel consumption?

Neither. AFAIR, in all past and present versions of Traveller,
fuel carried usually defaults to basically one maximum range
Jump plus enough fuel to get to/from the Jump point in both the
star system of origination and the destination star system.
If a ship misjumps to deep space while using up all its Jump
juice, its crew pretty much is dead because whatever fuel is
left probably (but not always) isn't enough to allow any
cold berths onboard (if any) to be powered until the ship
drifts into another star system.

It's virtually impossible to have a high Jump-/Maneuver-rated
ship because of the fuel constraints.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:03:12 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Books.

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure if anyone has read them, but the Sten series by Allen Cole and
> Chris Baunch (sp?) are some of my favorites.  They are different from the
> Traveller Universe, but I found some inspiration in them.

Yes! A great series for running a team of Special Ops characters
and also development of character personalities.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:10:00 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Reading material

Hello,
  also consider Robert Frezza - "A Small Colonial War" and sequels
  anything by H. Beam Piper - the Paratime material has little
application but the main spacegoing SF has a nice feel to it.

Good luck with the shipping discussions.
        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:15:54 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: "alien module"

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:53:02 +0900
From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Subject: Science Fiction Alien Module
book reads like a Traveller alien module.  It starts off by detailing 
the formation of a double planet, describes the evolution of the sentient 
lpaperback size and I had it around 1983 - 85.  Do any of our resident 
science fiction gurus know what the title or author was?

  Sounds like "First Cycle" by H. Beam Piper.
Good luck.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:18:22 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fleet & Melee

At 06:23 PM 1/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>> Actually, I have a weapon that will beup on my weapons page (coming the next
>> day or two) that is a shaped charge with a sensor that only detonates
>> against soft targets.  It won't breach a wall, but it will splatter a Vacc
>> Suit..
>> 
>> Very nasty indeed...
>
>Kinda like a hi-tech diver's bang stick?

Check, but at range.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|        "When cryptography is outlawed,          |
|        bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!"         |
|                    - Brad Templeton of ClariNet |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 23:41:45 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re:  Some thoughts on RPG design (long)

Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de> wrote:
> What I'm asking for is a ship design system that is a *lot* simpler than
> QSDS (and SSDS especially).

OK, I'll ask:

Simpler HOW?

QSDS's design goals were:
1) To require nothing more complex than a pencil and a single sheet of
   paper to design a starship, and
2) To enable a first-time user to be able to design a complete starship
   in under an hour, and an experienced user to be able to design a
   ship in less than half that time.
3) To be reasonably accurate (within 5% of the "correct" values).

I'd love to hear feedback from people who've used it to design ships.  How
long does it take, and which steps are the hardest, most time-consuming, or
most confusing?

> QSDS in comparison has lots of tables, *requires* a pocket calculator,
> uses fractional numbers and is easiest to use with a spreadsheet.

OK, I'll grant you that it has a lot of tables.  But requires a calculator?
WHY?  I designed the system so that there are only three steps that require
multiplication (*); all the rest is addition.  What steps do you feel
require a calculator, and what sort of spreadsheet have you been using?
What operations does the spreadsheet automate?

* They are:
1) Jump Drive fuel.  Jump Drive fuel is given as a percentage of the total
   ship volume; you have to multiply by the ships volume to figure the
   jump drive fuel in tons.
2) Cabins.  You have to multiply the size and cost (and, for very large
   ships, power requirement) of cabins by the number of crew to be housed.
3) Workstations.  You have to multiply the size and cost (and, for very
   large ships, the power requrement) of a workstation by the number of
   crew that require workstations.
These involve multiplying decimal numbers; it's approximately middle-school
arithmetic (6th or 7th grade level).  That's it.  Everything else is adding
up columns of decimal numbers, and requires elementary-school arithmetic.

> there like me and they really *deserve* a system that allows for quick
> designs in about 10 minutes.

10 Minutes, hmmm ... well, it's a goal.  Once you've got six or eight
designs done, QSDS should take about 15 minutes (20 minutes if you've got to
use the horribly dis-arranged tables that IG printed; get a new copy from my
Web site; it's much better organized).

> "Greg Porter seems to be the last *real* designer.".

I have a lot of respect for Greg's abilities, and I have yet to see a game
or suppliment from him that I've been dissapointed with.  However, I don't
think the fine art of game design is _quite_ dead yet; Steve Jackson is also
still out there, publishing good stuff.

> A. A much simpler ship design system in the basic rules (similar to CT but
> with more options).

That was the design intent of QSDS.  What items in QSDS do you feel are too
complex, or provide needless detail?

Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 00:33:10 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: [Traveller Answer] Starship Weapons

Mused <marz@hotstar.net> asked:
> Does anyone know how you figure out what the dif
> between laser bays and normal turrets? As it is, there ain't one!

Laser bays are much larger (50 displacement tons, versus 3 or 6 for
turret lasers).  Bays can traverse to track targets, but the arc is more
limited than turrets.  Since the T4 basic combat system doesn't provide
rules for firing arcs, this feature can't be simulated with it.

The optional (and, IMHO, highly recommended) Role-Playing Ship Combat System
does feature firing arcs.  In that game, turrets have a 360-degree arc of
fire, while bays have 180 or 240 degree arcs (depending on where they are
locaed on the ship).  Bays are also much more powerful weapons. 

Example: A TL-12 light laser turret rates at 3-2-0-0 (if at ROF 100); a
batery of 10 of these weapons rates 7-5-3-2 (again at ROF 100).  A TL-12
laser bay rates 3-3-3-2 at ROF 100 or 6-6-6-5 at ROF 800.

Note, however, that lasers aren't large weapons; it's only at low TLs do
laser bays enjoy a large advantage over turrets.  Because there is a limit
to the power-handling ability of lasers, some of the large laser turrets at
TL-13 and higher are as powerful as the bays.  The tables in SSDS don't
carry lasers below TL-11 (at TL-10 and below, bays are about the only way to
mount an effective laser weapon on a starship).

> And, for that matter, how do you calculate the factor of multiple lasers?
> the way it is worded, if I have 10 factor 2 lasers, I make a battery of
> 20 damage (why bother with bays, and spinal mounts for that matter)

The instructions for converting multiple-weapon batteries into USD codes is
wrong in _Starships_ (specifically, you get the problem noted above).  Here
is the correct rule:

1) Turret weapons can be grouped into batteries for increased fire-power.
   Each battery may have up to 10 weapons, and MUST be controlled by a
   Master Fire Director.

2) To determine the base USD factor of the battery, determine the damage of
   a single weapon (this is the last number, after the dash) at the ranges
   10, 20, 40, and 80 (these are standard for T4 basic starship combat).
   The range number is the first number, in front of the colon.

   Example: A TL-11 light laser turret is rated at
   5:1/7-21 10:1/5-15 20:1/2-7 40:1/1-4
   We can ignore the fractions, and then determine the ratings at the
   standard ranges:
   10:15 20:7 40:4 80:0
   Since the we will work with the standard ranges from here on, we'll
   drop the range numbers (and show only the damage, as 15-7-4-0).

3) We NOW multiply the damage values by the number of weapons in the
   battery.
   
   Example: A 1-weapon battery of a single TL-11 light laser has damage
   values of 15-7-4-0.  A 10-weapon battery is 150-70-40-0.

4) Use the USD conversion chart in SSDS to convert these damage values
    to USD codes.

   Example: a single TL-11 light laser converts to 0-0-0-0.  A battery
   of 10 TL-11 light lasers converts to 4-2-2-0.

5) Modify the damage value by the ROF of the weapon, to produce the final
   damage value.
   USD code.  Codes of 0 remain 0, no matter what the ROF is.
	ROF	Modifier
	10	-1
	50	 0
	100	+1
	200	+2
	400	+3
	800	+4

   Examples: a single TL-11 light laser is useless no matter what ROF
   it fires at, the USD remains 0-0-0-0.  A battery of 10 TL-11 light
   lasers, when firing at ROF 100, has a final USD of 5-3-3-0; if run at
   ROF 10, it has a USD of 3-1-1-0.

   NOTE: All lasers in SSDS have a listed ROF.  Any laser can be used at
   any ROF lower than the value listed (reduce the power input requirement
   proportionally to the ROF reduction - for example, if you run a ROF
   800 laser at ROF 400, it will use only half the power listed in the
   table; all other values are unchanged).
   Any laser with a ROF less than 100 may be used at up to ROF 100, by
   providing more power.  Therefore, laser turrets with a listed ROF of 10
   may be run at ROF 50 for 5 times the listed power consumption, and ROF
   100 for 10 times the listed power consumption.


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:41:51 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Long Day's Journey... Part II 

INTRO:

        Here, as promised, is the second instalment in our T4 campaign.
Festivities this week got off to a slow start as Ross had to work late and
another player couldn't make it, but the bunch of maniacs that I have the
misfortune to referee soon made up for the delay.

THE CAST:

Isaac Xyroli: a young, brash, and arrogant ex-Scout, currently working for
Ling Standard as pilot on the Frozen Glory, a FSY Mouffette-Rapide class
far courier.  Played by the TML's own Ross Coburn.

Leemcha Quo: Ascetic no-nonsense 35-year-old Asian/Vilani ex-Navy
Astrogator.  Carries a pair of FSMOMAE Gunchaku-2000's (description to
follow) in her luggage.  Played by a non-TMLer.

Dr. Ilbren Dinaskir: A Vilani archaeologist of humble origins, specializing
in the Rule-of-Man period, who rose to his present recently tenured
position due to his own brilliance and not to his humble origins on an
algae farm.  Played by TML'er Glenn Grant.

Lt. Jack 23: A strong, silent, dangerous type with "military" written all
over him; formerly a marine, now working for Ling Standard Security.  Has
manged to overcome his underprivileged youth as an orphan in a Solomani
Genetic Collective rather nicely.  Again, played by nobody you know.

Lt. Kyle Deschenko: A nice, genteel thug from one of the best of families.
Despite coming from a well-off family (SOC A), he nevertheless managed to
get sent to a military academy for his youthful misdeeds.  After a stint in
the Navy, he spent some time as a Rogue before getting hired by Ling.  Has
every weapon-related skill save Heavy Weapons.  Likewise, played by a
non-TMLer.



EPISODE 2: What?  Only Three Days And We're On The Ten Most Wanted List?
(subtitle: why you don't want a disgruntled postal worker as a pilot).


Scene 1: The session began on board the Frozen Glory about 5.5 days into
jump towards Archipelago en route to Skrunge.  Shortly after dinner, Xyroli
and Lt. 23 develop a nasty purple rash around the mouth and nostrils, start
projectile vomiting, keel over and pass out.  After much fuss, Dr. Dinaskir
and Maabaashii (the NPC gunner and cook) determine that it's an adverse
reaction to a Vilani dish that Maabaashii had prepared for dinner.  After
administering first aid and doing everything possible to make the
unconscious sufferers comfortable, it was decided that as Maabaashii had
cooked the offending food, he should be the one to vaccuum it out of the
rug.  Shortly thereafter, Xyroli regained consciousness to a degree (after
Ross, the person playing him, arrived).  Some time thereafter, they emerge
from jump on time and on target and proceed to land on Archipelago.  Xyroli
being unfit to fly, Leemcha handles the landing.  Customs and ambulance
personnel meet the ship, customs inspection is made, and the sufferers are
carted off to hospital.  Lt. 23 remains unconscious and is hospitalized,
but Xyroli manages to finagle a 3-day rest prescription from the doctor and
proceeds directly to the beach, where he lolls about in his TL-12 SPF
3,000,000 sunblock, his TL-12 Speedos, and his TL-12 shades.  The gulls
avoid him like the plague, but he manages to hook up with an unattached
(presumably colourblind) female.


Scene 2: The members of the crew not suffering from severe food poisoning
take a catamaran ferry in to Farrier, the capital (the port being on an
artificial island off Farrier).  Kliraad, the engineer, having been to
Archipelago several times, invites the crew to dinner at a little seafood
restaurant he knows.  After a trishaw ride into one of Farrier's less
congenial neighbourhoods, he leads them to a sidewalk cafe where they gorge
upon a wonderful seafood dinner.  Leemcha being rather devoted to duty,
leaves first, with Kliraad escorting her back to the ship.  Lt. Duschenko,
Dr. Dinaskir, and Maabaashii head for the beach, where they find a party
and proceed to get stinking drunk around a bonfire listening to a steel
drum band whose instruments are made up largely of old drop tanks (being
drummed from the inside) and the like.  Leemcha, after having headed out to
the ship, checked things out, and so forth, returns to the beach to get
some exercise and encounters the rest of the crew.  She behaves herself and
does not overimbibe.  Dr. Dinaskir and Lt. Duschenko, on the other hand, do
overimbibe, and dawn finds them asleep along the base of the seawall, Dr.
Dinaskir festooned with seaweed from an accidental dip in a tide pool.
Their hangovers are immense.  Xyroli, having awoken in a strange hotel
room, saunters by; his humour goes unappreciated by his suffering
shipmates.


Scene 3: Leemcha wakes bright and early and decides to head into town.
After buying breakfast fixings, she rents a small sporty watercraft as
transportation, because the local water taxis charge an arm and a leg.  She
manages to ding the paint job a little, and breaks many of the Rules of the
Road, but does not sink it on the way back to the port.

        After hangover recovery, that is to say around 14:30 the next
afternoon, a somewhat less zombie-like Lt. Duschenko and the ever-alert
Leemcha had in towards Ling Standard's Archipelago headquarters to put in
their supply requisition.  After meeting with the Veep of Supply, a young
yuppie by the name of Fanderbrees, they are told that unfortunately, they
can only be spared an open air raft, not an enclosed one, and that there
are only four security guards available, not an entire platoon.  Alarm
bells start ringing in their heads.  A quick comm call to Xyroli results in
him refusing to have them on board his ship, which is too crowded as it is.
Lt. Duschenko decides to override this.  The crew is much perturbed by
this news, as the question of why a dozen security troops, ostensibly on
board as labur for the archaeological dig, would be needed, is raised.
Leemcha decides to meet up with Xyroli back in Farrier (Xyroli, having
decided to tourist to the max, is and the Boom Tchikka Boom Club).  Xyroli
hatches the Baldrickesque cunning plan of breaking into Ling's motor pool,
stealing the air raft, and departing immediately.  However, Ling's HQ
proves impregnable, or at least closed for the day, (and their motor pool
was out at the port all along), so they return to the ship, where they find
an air raft parked by the ship.  Xyroli runs it inboard and everyone beds
down for an early departure, save Maabaashi and Kliraad, who are still out
on the town and are not responding to comm calls.


Scene 4:  The next morning, Kliraad and Maabaashii are nowhere to be seen.
Xyroli begins running preflight checks, determined to depart before the
security contingent from Ling arrives.  However, preparations are
interrupted by a call from the Port Authority.  The local law enforcement
officials have found Kliraad's body, his throat slit, floating in the
harbour.  Lt. Duschenko and Leemcha proceed to Agency law enforcement HQ,
where they indeed find poor Kliraad laid out on a slab.  Maabaashii's
whereabouts remain unknown, and he does not respond to comm calls.  During
discussions with a law enforcement officer, Leemcha lets slip that it might
be megacorp competition over the site on Skrunge that led to the murder,
and that Maabaashii might be a double agent in Tukera's employ.  Lt.
Duschenko is displeased with her blurting out of company secrets, and while
he lectures Leemcha on keeping her lip zipped, the law enforcement official
steps outside for a moment to place a quick comm call.  When Leemcha and
Lt. Duschenko return to the ship, they find a local police G-carrier parked
by the ship.

Scene 5: After some threats on the part of the law enforcement people,
Xyroli let them in, after having set the ship's anti-hijack program to be
triggered by the words "all right, that's enough!".  While the rest of the
crew cooperates with the police officials, who are searching the ship and
interrogating them, Xyroli is feeling rather disgruntled... and after being
pushed around a little too much, triggers the anti-hijack system (!).  As
it was late, I called it an evening there.

        Tune in next week as our gallant bunch of coconuts try and pull
themselves out of this mess...  As far as the absent player for Lt. 23
goes, he can either arrive just in time to bribe their way out of this mess
at the beginning of next session, or still be comatose when they leave if
he can't make it.  Either way it promises to be entertaining...  and who
knows what awaits them on Skrunge?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:54:50 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: New TNE Skills

Backman writes:

>Gunsmith should be included in Mechanic etc.

Franklin W. Cain writes:

>The existing skill "Machinist" is used for gunsmithing.
>A separate "Gunsmith" skill would be redundant.

   I would not allow my local auto mechanic to mount a folding stock on
my Mossberg shotgun, nor would I allow a gunsmith do a transmission job
on my Dodge Omni.  Just because two jobs are done with tools does not
make them essentially the same, otherwise TNE would not have a seperate
Jeweler skill.  I would place Gunsmith in the same category as
Jeweler--related to Mechanic but definately different enough to be a
seperate skill.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:34:44 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Re: What is Traveller?

>>I'm sorry, but this annoys me.  Why is it that even with the coming of T4,
>>people still find it necessary to condemn TNE?  It bothers me.
>
>Bravo, Paul. I too am tired of the TNE bashing. People don't realize that
>there are folks on here who get involved with Traveller in the first place
>because of TNE. Like it or not, TNE happened.

Thanks Allen, at least I know I'm not alone.  :)


>From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
>Subject: Re: What is Traveller?
>
>>>There was a TNE trilogy(?) but it didn't feel like Traveller (neither did
>>>the TNE gaming stuff).
>
>I'll try to shut up about TNE's unworthiness from now on.

Well, after re-reading what I wrote, I really felt bad about picking on you.
:( I was less than pleased with the TNE Novels.  I think they were Traveller
as far as background, but I don't think the writing was a good as it could
have been.  (This is spoken by a reader and not a writer, not a critique,
just opinion.)

Man, I sure am hedging alot. :)

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #899
**********************************
